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New film

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Charlie - 23 Jan 2004 17:09 GMT
There,s a new film coming out with Mel Gibson
its about the crucifixion of Christ
Iv just heard a Rabi and a Cristian disccusing
it, neither of them seemed impressed with the content
Rgds
Charlie
www.streetlevel.co.uk
Sorry just checked the spelling
 

Jim Ward - 23 Jan 2004 18:06 GMT
>  There,s a new film coming out with Mel Gibson
>  its about the crucifixion of Christ
>  Iv just heard a Rabi and a Cristian disccusing
>  it, neither of them seemed impressed with the content

Is it the one where it shows his marriage to Mary Magdalene? I bought a
piece of the original marriage certificate (in Latin, of course).
John Varela - 23 Jan 2004 20:18 GMT
> >  There,s a new film coming out with Mel Gibson
> >  its about the crucifixion of Christ
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Is it the one where it shows his marriage to Mary Magdalene? I bought a
> piece of the original marriage certificate (in Latin, of course).

You were scammed.  The original was in Aramaic.

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R H Draney - 23 Jan 2004 20:53 GMT
John Varela filted:

>> Is it the one where it shows his marriage to Mary Magdalene? I bought a
>> piece of the original marriage certificate (in Latin, of course).
>
>You were scammed.  The original was in Aramaic.

So hard to make the right choice...civil authorities would have used Latin, the
pharisaical bureacracy probably Aramaic (or proper Hebrew); we just have to
figure out who would have issued such a document....

Or maybe it's like today in California...you can take your driver's test in
English, Spanish, Korean, Hmong, and probably Klingon inter alia (I'm guessing
Aramaic's no longer on the menu)....r
Evan Kirshenbaum - 23 Jan 2004 23:19 GMT
> John Varela filted:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Hebrew); we just have to figure out who would have issued such a
> document....

Charles has accused me of relying too much on facts, so I'll just go
with unsubstantiated recollection here.  I'm fairly certain that
marriage was one of those things that the Romans left up to local
religious authorities.  I'm equally certain that ketubot have been in
Aramaic from at least that time, and it's only recently that you start
seeing them in Hebrew or the local language.  (Ours is in Aramaic.)

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R H Draney - 24 Jan 2004 00:49 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

>Charles has accused me of relying too much on facts, so I'll just go
>with unsubstantiated recollection here.  I'm fairly certain that
>marriage was one of those things that the Romans left up to local
>religious authorities.  I'm equally certain that ketubot have been in
>Aramaic from at least that time, and it's only recently that you start
>seeing them in Hebrew or the local language.  (Ours is in Aramaic.)

I guess this is the new thing I was meant to learn today....

So, if "ketubot" is (or at least approximates) Hebrew for English "banns", I
find myself wondering if it should be at all remarkable that both words are
plural in form?...r
Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jan 2004 01:13 GMT
> Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> "banns", I find myself wondering if it should be at all remarkable
> that both words are plural in form?...r

Only if you still find it remarkable when you consider that the word
was used in the plural in my sentence.  The singular is "ketubah".  We
have a ketubah hanging in our living room.

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Charles Riggs - 24 Jan 2004 08:04 GMT
>> So, if "ketubot" is (or at least approximates) Hebrew for English
>> "banns", I find myself wondering if it should be at all remarkable
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>was used in the plural in my sentence.  The singular is "ketubah".  We
>have a ketubah hanging in our living room.

So how much will the wife get? If the provisions to be made upon your
demise or a divorce are openly displayed, I assume you won't consider
it a personal question.
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Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jan 2004 08:18 GMT
> >> So, if "ketubot" is (or at least approximates) Hebrew for English
> >> "banns", I find myself wondering if it should be at all remarkable
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> demise or a divorce are openly displayed, I assume you won't consider
> it a personal question.

To tell you the truth, I honestly don't know.  I don't read Aramaic.
When we did this back in November, I found that

] the minimum amount was 200 zuz for a virgin and 100 zuz for a
] non-virgin.  A zuz is a quarter of a shekel, so that would be,
] respectively, 50 shekels and 25 shekels.  They give a value of 15
] cents for a zuz, which would be $2.88 today according to the inflation
] calculator at
]
]     http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi
]
] so that would be $576 for a virgin and $288 for a non-virgin.  If
] you go by the weight of the silver, a zuz would appear to be about
] forty-five cents, and the prices would be $90 and $45.

I don't recall anybody asking about whether she was a virgin or not,
so I'd guess that it's the larger amount.  Of course those are
minimums; I have no idea what was considered "standard".

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Reinhold (Rey) Aman - 24 Jan 2004 10:13 GMT
[...]

> > > We have a ketubah hanging in our living room.

> > So how much will the wife get? If the provisions to be made upon
> > your demise or a divorce are openly displayed, I assume you won't
> > consider it a personal question.

> To tell you the truth, I honestly don't know.  I don't read Aramaic.

If you should get a divorce -- God forbid! -- the division of assets
won't be based on the Aramaic _ketubah_ or Judaic law but on California
law (where "divorce" is officially euphemized as something like
"dissolution of marriage").

In case your wife should hire an outrageous scumbag divorce-shyster
(euphemized by those bottom-feeding shysters as "matrimonial attorney"
-- sorry, Bob) like my wife did, you'll be lucky to walk away with your
scrotum intact, a suitcase with your clothes, some books, and a
Commodore 64.

> When we did this back in November, I found that
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I don't recall anybody asking about whether she was a virgin or not,
> so I'd guess that it's the larger amount.

(Cough, cough)  I believe that the virgin-bride's $576 (200 zuz) won't
apply.  On 5 January 2004 you posted:

 "Not counting the unofficial roommate in my two-bed-triple freshman
year and Susan (now my wife) who was my rommate off-campus my last
year." [...] "We rented a house, sharing the master bedroom and
subletting the other two bedrooms to other students."

Even if your shared master bedroom didn't have three mirrors (like
Lieblich's debauched cave of carnality), there must have been some hot
hanky-panky going on ("For 100 zuz I should worry?").  Not that there's
anything wrong with flagrantly living in sin, of course.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jan 2004 16:18 GMT
> > I don't recall anybody asking about whether she was a virgin or not,
> > so I'd guess that it's the larger amount.
>
> (Cough, cough)  I believe that the virgin-bride's $576 (200 zuz) won't
> apply.

I doubt that the wording is conditional, though.  Once it was
witnessed, whatever amount was stated there would be binding.
Presumably I should have quibbled when it was being written.  (Okay,
it was actually a "fill-in-the-blank", but the only clue is that the
filled-in elements are sometimes stretched to fill the blank.)

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jan 2004 19:43 GMT
> > >We have a ketubah hanging in our living room.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> To tell you the truth, I honestly don't know.  I don't read Aramaic.

Looking at the ketubah, I can find the word "zuz" (in the plural
"zuzey") in the middle of line nine, but nothing around it looks like
an amount to me or to Susan, who reads Hebrew somewhat, but can't
really do Aramaic.  She tells me that the word before it, "kesef" is
"money" in Hebrew.  If anybody wants to take a look, I've put a photo
of the ketubah at

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/AUE/ketubah.jpg

and a detail of the five lines centered on the word at

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/AUE/ketubah-detail-highlight.JPG

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Jerry Friedman - 26 Jan 2004 23:31 GMT
> > > >We have a ketubah hanging in our living room.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> really do Aramaic.  She tells me that the word before it, "kesef" is
> "money" in Hebrew.

Literally "silver", in case she didn't throw that in.

> If anybody wants to take a look, I've put a photo
> of the ketubah at
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>     http://www.kirshenbaum.net/AUE/ketubah-detail-highlight.JPG
...

I can't get most of it, but the word after "zuzey", whose consonants
are m'tn, could be a cognate of Hebrew "me'oth" (if I spelled that
right), which means "hundreds".  Just to give you a ballpark.

Signature

Jerry Friedman

Jonathan Miller - 24 Jan 2004 03:43 GMT
> > John Varela filted:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Aramaic from at least that time, and it's only recently that you start
> seeing them in Hebrew or the local language.  (Ours is in Aramaic.)

That's interesting.  Also going with unsubstantiated recollection, in the
Germanic (dare we say barbarian?) areas, marriages (except of the nobility)
were begun by a man and frau simply beginning to live together and acting as
husband and wife.  At least up to the 1200s, although George Huppert in
_After the Black Death_ (Oops!  Well, at least I'm appealling to authority
here and not actually authenticating facts) indicates that by the mid 1500s
the formalities were pretty formal.  However, one Spanish bishop complained
that engaged people were living together as man and wife before the actual
wedding ceremony.  The formalities (and celebration) took place after the
consummation.

Also (or maybe because), the pledge was taken very seriously and was
practically permanent.  Britney would be stuck.

Although (or again maybe because) you could get your marriage annulled if
you were married within seven degrees of consanguinity.  Given the way
people travelled in those days, that meant practically all marriages (except
of the nobility, of course -- but eventually they became pretty inbred too).
Since annulment was so easy, divorce was unnecessary.

Jon Miller
Charles Riggs - 24 Jan 2004 08:04 GMT
>Charles has accused me of relying too much on facts, so I'll just go
>with unsubstantiated recollection here.  I'm fairly certain that
>marriage was one of those things that the Romans left up to local
>religious authorities.  I'm equally certain that ketubot have been in
>Aramaic from at least that time, and it's only recently that you start
>seeing them in Hebrew or the local language.  (Ours is in Aramaic.)

Good grief, Evan, what to do? Not being bedazzled by facts, I just
don't know how to react to this statement. :-)
Signature

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Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Adrian Bailey - 23 Jan 2004 19:20 GMT
> There,s a new film coming out with Mel Gibson
>  its about the crucifixion of Christ
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>  www.streetlevel.co.uk
>  Sorry just checked the spelling

Good job.

Adrian
Don Phillipson - 23 Jan 2004 21:14 GMT
> There,s a new film coming out with Mel Gibson
>  its about the crucifixion of Christ
>  Iv just heard a Rabi and a Cristian disccusing
>  it, neither of them seemed impressed with the content

Had either of them seen the film?

There was lots of publicity about this because
Gibson (director or producer, not acting in this
film) planned originally to use only St. John's
Gospel in Latin and Aramaic as appropriate.
Among the four biblical gospels, this is the
most antisemitic (possibly first written in Greek
for non-Jews.)  It appears his film now
uses a modern American translation of this
gospel, with some PC synonyms.  Apparently
KGV "priests and scribes" becomes "Jewish
authorities."

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
Tony Cooper - 24 Jan 2004 02:48 GMT
>> There,s a new film coming out with Mel Gibson
>>  its about the crucifixion of Christ
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>KGV "priests and scribes" becomes "Jewish
>authorities."

The movie was shown to a group of ministers and pastors here in town.
The Jewish community is upset about the portrayal of Jews as the
killer of Christ.

Personally, I can't see the problem.  The only people who will watch
the movie are people that have already formed their opinions.  
The Grammer Genious - 24 Jan 2004 03:22 GMT
> <...>   The only people who will watch
> the movie are people that have already formed their opinions.  

Nope. I don't have any formed opinions. I want to see it for
linguistic reasons -- to see to what extent they f.ck up. I don't
give a crap about Gibson's humorous adolescent religious
posturing, one way or the other.

\\P. Schultz
Jim Ward - 24 Jan 2004 04:01 GMT
> Nope. I don't have any formed opinions. I want to see it for
> linguistic reasons -- to see to what extent they f.ck up. I don't
> give a crap about Gibson's humorous adolescent religious
> posturing, one way or the other.

I read that the Pope gave it a thumb up.
The Grammer Genious - 24 Jan 2004 04:21 GMT
>>Nope. I don't have any formed opinions. I want to see it for
>>linguistic reasons -- to see to what extent they f.ck up. I don't
>>give a crap about Gibson's humorous adolescent religious
>>posturing, one way or the other.
>
> I read that the Pope gave it a thumb up.

Well, He may have stuck His thumb up, but He may have been
signaling that he had to pee, or something.

\\P. Schultz
Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jan 2004 06:46 GMT
> >> Nope. I don't have any formed opinions. I want to see it for
> >> linguistic reasons -- to see to what extent they f.ck up. I don't
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Well, He may have stuck His thumb up, but He may have been signaling
> that he had to pee, or something.

Anybody else flash on a Dave Allen routine?  ("You!  Take your
barbecue and your friend hiding behind the bushes and get out of
here!")

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Robert Lieblich - 24 Jan 2004 04:38 GMT
> > Nope. I don't have any formed opinions. I want to see it for
> > linguistic reasons -- to see to what extent they f.ck up. I don't
> > give a crap about Gibson's humorous adolescent religious
> > posturing, one way or the other.
>
> I read that the Pope gave it a thumb up.

The Vatican vigorously denies that the Pope has any opinion about
it.  In his condition, it's probably quite an effort for him to give
a thumbs up.

As for the movie, I doubt very much that it shows JC married to Mary
M.  None of the four canonic gospels mentions such a marriage, and
Gibson says he followed the gospel narrative throughout.

I plan to see it, if only to see what the fuss is all about.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Why not?

Mickwick - 24 Jan 2004 10:42 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Robert Lieblich wrote:

>> I read that the Pope gave it a thumb up.
>
>The Vatican vigorously denies that the Pope has any opinion about
>it.  In his condition, it's probably quite an effort for him to give
>a thumbs up.

The Pope has recently made a remarkable recovery. He's been taking some
sort of quack New Age herbal medicine - and it works! So I suppose it
isn't quack or New Age any more.

Of course, if he had been a smoker he probably wouldn't have got
Parkinson's in the first place.

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Mickwick

Jim Ward - 26 Jan 2004 17:59 GMT
> The Pope has recently made a remarkable recovery. He's been taking some
> sort of quack New Age herbal medicine - and it works! So I suppose it
> isn't quack or New Age any more.

Speaking of New Agers, I recently read a paragraph about a Hawaiian sacred
site being roped off to tourists because too many New Agers were hanging
crystals and dreamcatchers.
John Dean - 24 Jan 2004 20:00 GMT
>>> Nope. I don't have any formed opinions. I want to see it for
>>> linguistic reasons -- to see to what extent they f.ck up. I don't
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> I plan to see it, if only to see what the fuss is all about.

'vigorously denies' isn't what comes across here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1130076,00.html

<< Dr Navarro-Valls's [ official papal spokesman ] first public statement on
Thursday confirmed that the Pope had seen the film, and described it as "a
cinematographic transposition of the historical event of the passion of
Jesus Christ according to the accounts of the Gospel", which is more or less
what the Pope is supposed to have said.

But he added: "It is a common practice of the Holy Father not to express
public opinions on artistic works," leaving open the possibility that the
Pope had acted unusually. He neither confirmed nor denied the papal remark.

Of course, by one version, the pope said ''It is as it was'' which, if *I'd*
said it my wife would be breaking out the lithium. And we don't know in
which language he said it or who translated it.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Jonathan Miller - 25 Jan 2004 09:33 GMT
> >>> Nope. I don't have any formed opinions. I want to see it for
> >>> linguistic reasons -- to see to what extent they f.ck up. I don't
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> said it my wife would be breaking out the lithium. And we don't know in
> which language he said it or who translated it.

The next time we are discussing some occurrence that we read (or hear) about
in the news media, it would be wise to stop and think about this particular
story.  What appears in the "news" may or may not bear any resemblance to
what really happened.

Jon Miller
Jim Ward - 26 Jan 2004 18:00 GMT
> The Vatican vigorously denies that the Pope has any opinion about
> it.  In his condition, it's probably quite an effort for him to give
> a thumbs up.

I was wondering how you go about getting an Impuratur for a film.
Martin Ambuhl - 26 Jan 2004 18:22 GMT
> I was wondering how you go about getting an Impuratur for a film.

The reported phrase, "It is as it was," is closer to a nihil obstat.

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Martin Ambuhl

Reinhold (Rey) Aman - 27 Jan 2004 05:38 GMT


> > The Vatican vigorously denies that the Pope has any opinion about
> > it.  In his condition, it's probably quite an effort for him to
> > give a thumbs up.

> I was wondering how you go about getting an Impuratur for a film.

You mean "imprimatur"?  Nihil obstat.

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Reinhold (Rey) Aman

R J Valentine - 27 Jan 2004 06:36 GMT
} Jim Ward wrote:
}  
}> Robert Lieblich wrote:
}  
}> > The Vatican vigorously denies that the Pope has any opinion about
}> > it.  In his condition, it's probably quite an effort for him to
}> > give a thumbs up.
}
}> I was wondering how you go about getting an Impuratur for a film.
}
} You mean "imprimatur"?  Nihil obstat.

Yeah, but is that the answer or a correction of a putative error?

I think that back in the day you'd first get a censor librorum to check it
over and give you a nihil obstat.  Then you might have to hunt down
someone to give you an imprimi potest.  Only then would you seriously go
about getting an imprimatur from the big dog.  I don't see that the
process would be any different for a film than for a book.

None of it means that it's right; it just means that it's not wrong enough
to block.

For instance, for a Catholic nowadays (which is to say, since 1943) to say
that a film taking a literal interpretation of a conflation of scriptural
accounts of "events" leading up to the death of Jesus of Nazareth "is how
it was" (or something to that effect) would be hard-pressed to get any of
those stamps of approval for the statement.  The sum total of what we know
about them is pretty much stated in the ancient creeds: he died.  It's one
thing to take any one of the accounts as a way of dealing with it.  It's
another to paste it together like newspaper reporting.

Right, Rey?

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Tony Cooper - 24 Jan 2004 04:57 GMT
>> <...>   The only people who will watch
>> the movie are people that have already formed their opinions.  
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>\\P. Schultz

What you've said above indicates that you've formed your opinion.
Your opinion is that Gibson is guilty of humorous adolescent religious
posturing.  Therefore, the movie will not influence your view of the
Jews.  That's my point.
The Grammer Genious - 25 Jan 2004 02:51 GMT
>>><...>   The only people who will watch
>>>the movie are people that have already formed their opinions.  
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> posturing.  Therefore, the movie will not influence your view of the
> Jews.  That's my point.

Oh, now I think I see. Since, as I stated, my having an opinion
or NOT having an opinion has nothing whatever to do with the
reason I will see the movie, what you must have meant is that
everyone who goes to see the movie will just happen to have
formed some opinion about something. Insightful.

\\P. Schultz
Charles Riggs - 24 Jan 2004 08:04 GMT
>> <...>   The only people who will watch
>> the movie are people that have already formed their opinions.  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>give a crap about Gibson's humorous adolescent religious
>posturing, one way or the other.

Quite the reverse appears to be the case. It'd be the rare geezer who
got all wound up over something he didn't give a crap about.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

The Grammer Genious - 25 Jan 2004 02:53 GMT
>>><...>   The only people who will watch
>>>the movie are people that have already formed their opinions.  
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Quite the reverse appears to be the case. It'd be the rare geezer who
> got all wound up over something he didn't give a crap about.

Sorry it got you all wound up. Unless you enjoyed it, in which
case I'm glad for you.

\\P. Schultz
 
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