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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004financier
An AP wire story in this morning's paper had this: "Japan, the second-biggest financier of the United Nations,..." This seems an odd use of "financier"; I wonder if the author meant "financer". My usual dictionaries agree that a financier is someone adept at managing large amounts of money, not someone who simply supplies money to an outfit. But there's also a verb usage of "financier", meaning "to finance", so I suppose Japan could be referred to as a "financierer". On a related note, the OED's first definition for "financier" is: "1. Fr. Hist. An administrator, collector, or farmer of taxes before the Revolution. Obs." So what's a "farmer of taxes"?  SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) >From: Ray Heindl raheindl@xnccwx.net >An AP wire story in this morning's paper had this: >"Japan, the second-biggest financier of the United Nations,..." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >adept at managing large amounts of money, not someone who simply >supplies money to an outfit. Maybe the author actually meant financier. By supplying a large amount of money, Japan also buys large pieces of market, which might be a wise financial decision. > But there's also a verb usage of >"financier", meaning "to finance", so I suppose Japan could be referred [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >So what's a "farmer of taxes"? If you look at the first definition of "farmer", you might get an idea what a "farmer of taxes" means. I didn't. Main Entry: farm·er Pronunciation: 'fär-m&r Function: noun Date: 14th century 1 : a person who pays a fixed sum for some privilege or source of income 2 : a person who cultivates land or crops or raises animals or fish >>From: Ray Heindl raheindl@xnccwx.net > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > 1 : a person who pays a fixed sum for some privilege or source of income > 2 : a person who cultivates land or crops or raises animals or fish http://www.taxworld.org/History/tax_farming.htm "TAX FARMING Tax farming is the principle of assigning the responsibility for tax revenue collection to private citizens or groups. Tax farming occurred in Eygpt, Rome, Great Britain, and Greece. The principle was considered very effective for tax revenue collection but suffered from a tendency of the tax-farmers to abuse the taxpayer for collection. Only when the system included checks and balances for the tax-farmer as well as the taxpayer did the system seem truly successful. The publicani of Rome were known as some of the most abusive tax-farmers. Tax farmers bid at auction for the contract rights to collect a particular tax and was held responsible for any loss. In Eygpt taxes for collected very effectively without tax farmers until the Greek Ptolemies set up rule. Under the Ptolemies the tax-farmer watched over the taxpayer and the government tax collector to prevent the scribes from imposing lighter taxes on the poor and unfortunate." SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >From: Frances Kemmish fkemmish@optonline.net >http://www.taxworld.org/History/tax_farming.htm > >"TAX FARMING > >Tax farming is the principle of assigning the responsibility for tax >revenue collection to private citizens or groups. Groups, like the IRS? > Tax farming occurred >in Eygpt, Rome, Great Britain, and Greece. The principle was considered >very effective for tax revenue collection but suffered from a tendency >of the tax-farmers to abuse the taxpayer for collection. Only when the >system included checks and balances for the tax-farmer as well as the >taxpayer did the system seem truly successful. What kind of check and balances? IMO, the IRS people should be elected. >The publicani of Rome >were known as some of the most abusive tax-farmers. Tax farmers bid at [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >government tax collector to prevent the scribes from imposing lighter >taxes on the poor and unfortunate." >>From: Frances Kemmish fkemmish@optonline.net > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Groups, like the IRS? Not unless the IRS gets to keep all the money it collects. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com >From: Frances Kemmish fkemmish@optonline.net >>>From: Frances Kemmish fkemmish@optonline.net >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Not unless the IRS gets to keep all the money it collects. They draw a salary out of our tax money, right? Unless they volunteer their services for free. >>From: Frances Kemmish fkemmish@optonline.net > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > They draw a salary out of our tax money, right? Unless they volunteer their > services for free. That's kind of the opposite of the tax farmer. The tax farmer pays an amount for the privilege of collecting the taxes, then gets to keep whatever he can collect. The IRS employee gets a salary in return for extorting what he can from the taxpayer. SignatureFrances Kemmish Production Manager East Coast Youth Ballet www.byramartscenter.com > http://www.taxworld.org/History/tax_farming.htm > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > and the government tax collector to prevent the scribes from > imposing lighter taxes on the poor and unfortunate." Thanks, that makes it clear. The dictionary def wasn't so clear to me, probably because the idea of private tax collectors seemed a bit odd. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) > An AP wire story in this morning's paper had this: > "Japan, the second-biggest financier of the United Nations,..." > > This seems an odd use of "financier"; Ah, another of those occupations the French don't have a word for. > I wonder if the author meant > "financer". My usual dictionaries agree that a financier is someone [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > So what's a "farmer of taxes"? In France before the revolution: a tax collector. Tax collection used to be privatized. A tax farmer paid a fixed sum to the crown, and collected the taxes to make a profit. They either became very rich, or lost their heads under the guillotine. Jan >From: nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) >In France before the revolution: a tax collector. >Tax collection used to be privatized. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >They either became very rich, >or lost their heads under the guillotine. That was a powerful tax incentive. In alt.usage.english, J. J. Lodder wrote: >> So what's a "farmer of taxes"? > >In France before the revolution ... Also Ireland before EU accession (or thereabouts), I believe. SignatureMickwick nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder): >> So what's a "farmer of taxes"? >In France before the revolution: a tax collector. >Tax collection used to be privatized. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >They either became very rich, >or lost their heads under the guillotine. In the case of Antoine Lavoisier (1743-1794), the father of modern chemistry, both. regards, Nantko SignatureHanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. http://www.xs4all.nl/~nantko/ > > An AP wire story in this morning's paper had this: > > "Japan, the second-biggest financier of the United Nations,..." [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > They either became very rich, > or lost their heads under the guillotine. Actually, it was considered a very safe investment. The tax farmers (in France) would hire other people to do the actual work (like Victorian England, actual productive work was something a gentleman would *never* do). There's a short descriptions of this in Stephen Jay Gould's "The Passion of Antoine Lavoisier". I couldn't tell you the title of the collection for the life of me (_Bully for Brontosaurus_, 1991, ain't google wunnerful?). Lavoisier did not become rich from his investment in tax farming, although he did develop a reasonably good income (as reported by Gould paraphrasing someone else who may or may not have done creditable research). In any event, Lavoisier was comfortable but not fabulously wealthy. However, came the revolution, went his head. The tax farmers were hated more than the IRS is. Jon Miller > An AP wire story in this morning's paper had this: > "Japan, the second-biggest financier of the United Nations,..." [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > So what's a "farmer of taxes"? I thought you said you had an OED (s.v. 'farm' /v/2, note the 1606 citation for 1b and 1845 citation for 2b): 1... b. To take the fees, proceeds, or profits of (an office, tax, etc.) on payment of a fixed sum. 1569 J. Parkhurst Injunctions, None of you shall ferme one cure+within this Dioces. 1606 Holland Sueton. Annot. 12 These Publicanes, so called for that they fermed their Cities revenewes. 1639 Fuller Holy War v. xxvii. (1647) 276 The Guardian farmeth the Sepulchre of the Turk at a yearly rent. 1667 Pepys Diary (1879) IV. 427 The two women that farm the well. 1738 Johnson London 58 Let such+Collect a tax, or farm a lottery. 1861 M. Pattison Ess. (1889) I. 41 The Tidemann farmed+the tin-mines belonging to the Duchy of Cornwall. 1888 Daily News 19 Sept. 3/1 Colonel Mapleson+as he could get no one to farm him+had+to farm others, and he became an impresario. 1667 1639 1888 1569 1606 1738 1861 [...] 2... b. To lease or let the proceeds or profits of (customs, taxes, tithes, an undertaking) for a fixed payment. 1602 2nd Pt. Return fr. Parnass. iii. i. (Arb.) 35 My promise for farming my tithes at such a rate. 1672 Petty Pol. Anat. 362 The customs+yielded anno 1657, under 12000l. but was farmed anno 1658, for above thrice that sum. a1704 T. Brown Two Oxford Scholars Wks. 1730 I. 9 If I be minded to farm out my Tythes. 1817 Coleridge Biog. Lit. 274 The concern should be farmed to some responsible individual. 1845 McCulloch Taxation Introd. (1852) 31 Any attempt to farm taxes on income+would excite the most violent clamour. 1879 Farrar St. Paul (1883) 249 Augustus had farmed the copper-mines to Herod the Great. 1879 1672 1845 1602 a1704 1817 SignatureMartin Ambuhl |
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