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What happened to http://www.m-w.com/?

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jan 2004 22:50 GMT
Merriam-Webster's page now says

   Welcome to the new look and feel of Merriam-Webster OnLine! We've
   taken your comments and suggestions to heart and given your
   favorite online dictionary a facelift for the new year. All our
   classic features are spruced up and easier to access than ever
   before.

          http://www.m-w.com

Apparently one of the comments and suggestions was to remove the
citation dates, as they no longer appear to be given, although the
explanatory notes still claim that they are

   http://www.m-w.com/help/dictnotes/dates.htm

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Donna Richoux - 24 Jan 2004 23:43 GMT
> Merriam-Webster's page now says
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Apparently one of the comments and suggestions was to remove the
> citation dates, as they no longer appear to be given

You're right, I don't find the dates, either. I'm disappointed; that
year was a great feature for the sort of questions I have. Maybe the
run-of-the-mill user found them unimportant or even misleading?

They've got a "Contact Us" page; I'm going to write them.

>, although the
> explanatory notes still claim that they are
>
>     http://www.m-w.com/help/dictnotes/dates.htm

What that shows doesn't match the actual dictionary entries, even for
the example they give of "expose."

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Best -- Donna Richoux

Martin Ambuhl - 24 Jan 2004 23:59 GMT
>>           http://www.m-w.com
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> year was a great feature for the sort of questions I have. Maybe the
> run-of-the-mill user found them unimportant or even misleading?

One of the things I considered an improvement in SOED4=NSOED and SOED5 over
SOED1-3 was the removal of specific dates and replacement by (roughly) 1/3
centuries.  It is very rare than the *year* is known or useful.  The OED
dating is of the citations they have, which are given to us. That is
reasonable. The bare date without the citation, as was M-W's wont, is
misleading.

Signature

Martin Ambuhl

John Holmes - 25 Jan 2004 05:01 GMT
>>>           http://www.m-w.com
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> given to us. That is reasonable. The bare date without the citation,
> as was M-W's wont, is misleading.

From the M-W entries that I've seen posted here, they only gave the
dates for the bare head-word, not for any particular sense of the word.
That can also be misleading if the senses are not listed in historical
order. Perhaps that's why they have now dropped the dates.

--
Regards
John
Bob Cunningham - 25 Jan 2004 13:01 GMT
> >>>           http://www.m-w.com

> >>> Apparently one of the comments and suggestions was to remove the
> >>> citation dates, as they no longer appear to be given

The _Collegiate Eleventh Edition_ has the inception dates
both in the hard copy and on the CD-ROM.  

There's a URL for an online version of the eleventh
_Collegiate_, but it's accessible to only people who
subscribe or who have bought the print edition in the
previous twelve months.  I qualify under the latter
condition, but I've lost track of my username and password
for it.  If I come across it before the year is out, I'll
see if the online version has retained the dates.

> >> You're right, I don't find the dates, either. I'm
> >> disappointed; that year was a great feature for the
> >> sort of questions I have. Maybe the run-of-the-mill
> >> user found them unimportant or even misleading?

Misleading maybe, but I doubt that they would drop a feature
because a run-of-the mill user would find it unimportant.  I
would expect more users than not to find the etymologies
unimportant, but they're there for those who find them
useful.

> > One of the things I considered an improvement in
> > SOED4=NSOED

Oxford University Press in the preface to the _New Shorter
Oxford English Dictionary_ avoid calling it a "Fourth
Edition to emphasize the fact that while it's "a replacement
for the third edition of the _Shorter Oxford English
Dictionary_", it's "not a direct revision of its text".
They go on to say

  Every entry has been written afresh, taking into
  account the linguistic evidence of the Dictionary
  Department's extensive quotation files and computer
  databases.

Now I learn that they have a new release that they are
calling the "Fifth Edition".  This leaves me wondering if
*they* have ever departed from their policy of not calling
_NSOED_ the "Fourth Edition".  I do see that there are lots
of mentions of it by others on the Web.

> > and SOED5 over SOED1-3 was the removal of
> > specific dates and replacement by (roughly) 1/3
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > bare date without the citation, as was [is?] M-W's
> > wont, is misleading.

Random House dictionaries in most cases have the dates in
five-year periods, but sometimes the period is longer,
presumably reflecting lack of more precise knowledge.  For
example, under "transistor", the etymology is

  [1945-50; TRANS(FER) + (RES)ISTOR]

while under "people" it's

  [1225-75; ME peple < AF poeple, OF pueple < L populus.  
  See POPULAR]
Bob Cunningham - 25 Jan 2004 14:32 GMT
[ . . . ]

> Oxford University Press in the preface to the _New Shorter
> Oxford English Dictionary_ avoid calling it a "Fourth
> [*]Edition to[*] emphasize the fact that while it's "a replacement
> for the third edition of the _Shorter Oxford English
> Dictionary_", it's "not a direct revision of its text".
> They go on to say

* Make that 'Edition" to'.
David McMurray - 26 Jan 2004 13:53 GMT
Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote, in part:

> The _Collegiate Eleventh Edition_ has the inception dates
> both in the hard copy and on the CD-ROM.  
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> for it.  If I come across it before the year is out, I'll
> see if the online version has retained the dates.

I qualify under the same condition and have just subscribed. The dates
are there.

> Random House dictionaries in most cases have the dates in
> five-year periods, but sometimes the period is longer,
> presumably reflecting lack of more precise knowledge.  For
> example, under "transistor", the etymology is
>
>    [1945-50; TRANS(FER) + (RES)ISTOR]

The online M-W gives 1948 for "transistor", just as it does in the print
edition.

Interestingly, it has neither "patriate", a Canadianism dating from the
60s which I use as a quick and dirty test for new dictionaries, nor the
word--not a Canadianism--which I used as my subscription password. Both
words are in the Gage Canadian Dictionary.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 25 Jan 2004 17:36 GMT
> From the M-W entries that I've seen posted here, they only gave the
> dates for the bare head-word, not for any particular sense of the
> word.  That can also be misleading if the senses are not listed in
> historical order.

Which they were.

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Donna Richoux - 25 Jan 2004 17:55 GMT
> > From the M-W entries that I've seen posted here, they only gave the
> > dates for the bare head-word, not for any particular sense of the
> > word.  

It was always for the first meaning listed, as far as I could tell.

> >That can also be misleading if the senses are not listed in
> > historical order.
>
> Which they were.

Not quite. The numbered meanings were in historical order, but the (b)
and (c) meanings could be from later, and therefore be out of sequence.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Evan Kirshenbaum - 25 Jan 2004 18:47 GMT
> > > From the M-W entries that I've seen posted here, they only gave
> > > the dates for the bare head-word, not for any particular sense
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> (b) and (c) meanings could be from later, and therefore be out of
> sequence.

The numbered senses were in historical order, and the lettered
subsenses were in historical order within each sense.  It's historical
order, but only a partial order.  That is, 2a and 1b both came after
1a and 2b came after 2a, but you couldn't say anything about the
relative order of 1b and 2b.

In any case, since the date went with the oldest sense, this would
always be "1a".

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Raymond S. Wise - 25 Jan 2004 08:42 GMT
> >>           http://www.m-w.com
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> reasonable. The bare date without the citation, as was M-W's wont, is
> misleading.

It should also be noted that the first-use dates previously given in the
online dictionary at www.m-w.com differed from time to time from those given
in the 11th Collegiate. That means that anyone citing a date from an entry
at www.m-w.com might very well be citing a date which Merriam-Webster's
editors now think to be incorrect.

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Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

 
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