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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004PIN Numbers go East
Sky News Channel's latest puff for itself proclaims breathlessly that later this month they will offer full coverage of the 'Hajj Pilgrimage' -- John Dean Oxford > Sky News Channel's latest puff for itself proclaims breathlessly that later > this month they will offer full coverage of the 'Hajj Pilgrimage' Could have been worse. I've heard "Muslim Hajj Pilgrimage" before. It may have worked if they said "Muslim 'Hajj' Pilgrimage" but sadly the person felt it needed to be qualified. Twice.  Signature-Brian James Macke macke@strangelove.net "In order to get that which you wish for, you must first get that which builds it." -- Unknown While it was 26/1/04 5:02 am throughout the UK, Brian Macke sprinkled little black dots on a white screen, and they fell thus: >> Sky News Channel's latest puff for itself proclaims breathlessly >> that later this month they will offer full coverage of the 'Hajj [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > may have worked if they said "Muslim 'Hajj' Pilgrimage" but sadly the > person felt it needed to be qualified. Twice. Where's the Al Qaeda base at these days, for that matter? Stewart. SignatureMy e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox, aside from its being the unfortunate victim of intensive mail-bombing at the moment. Please keep replies on the 'group where everyone may benefit. > >> Sky News Channel's latest puff for itself proclaims breathlessly > >> that later this month they will offer full coverage of the 'Hajj > >> Pilgrimage' > > > > Could have been worse. I've heard "Muslim Hajj Pilgrimage" before. It This is quite OK by Canadian methods for bilingualism (and Hajj is Arabic and Pilgrimage English.) Public places are often named Place Victoria Square Chemin Hall Road, etc. -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > > Sky News Channel's latest puff for itself proclaims breathlessly that later > > this month they will offer full coverage of the 'Hajj Pilgrimage' > > Could have been worse. I've heard "Muslim Hajj Pilgrimage" before. It may > have worked if they said "Muslim 'Hajj' Pilgrimage" but sadly the person > felt it needed to be qualified. Twice. You guys can't think that a majority of the English-speaking public (any country) would know what the "Hajj" was, without any clue? What wording would you recommend that is both clear *and* non-repetitive? (Not that I'm opposed to these foreign borrowings being etymologically repetive, like "The Los Angeles police department." There's a point where a name is just a noise.) SignatureCurious -- Donna Richoux >You guys can't think that a majority of the English-speaking public (any >country) would know what the "Hajj" was, without any clue? I don't think that says what I think you mean. David > >You guys can't think that a majority of the English-speaking public (any > >country) would know what the "Hajj" was, without any clue? > > I don't think that says what I think you mean. Really? Let me try again. You guys can't think that a majority of the English-speaking public knows what "Hajj" means? I can't think of another way to say it. How about: You guys appear to be saying that a majority of English speakers know what "Hajj" means, without any clues. I don't think they do. I don't *believe* that is any different than what I said, and it is still what I mean. But perhaps you can point out to me where my mistake lies. Then maybe we can return to my question, namely, what would have been a better way for Sky News Channel to say the original line? SignatureBest wishes -- Donna Richoux [Snipped; because it's repeated below] >> I don't think that says what I think you mean. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >still what I mean. But perhaps you can point out to me where my mistake >lies. I don't see how "can't think" can mean "appear to be saying". I took it as being the first half of a double negative ("can't think that ... doesn't know") that had gone a bit wrong. Just leaving out the "can't" would work. Ah! I think I've got it! You mean "Surely you guys can't think ...?" It all makes sense now; sorry for the interruption. David >>> You guys can't think that a majority of the English-speaking public >>> (any country) would know what the "Hajj" was, without any clue? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Then maybe we can return to my question, namely, what would have been > a better way for Sky News Channel to say the original line? If they agree with you that English speakers don't know what 'Hajj' is, then it would have been simple to say '[Great] Pilgrimage to Mecca'. In general, if you don't think your audience will know what a word means, it's wiser not to use it. Or if you want to be spiffy say 'The Hajj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca' or 'The annual pilgrimage to Mecca known as the Hajj' - like CNN have done at http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/22/saudi.hajj/index.html << Muslims are converging on the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia for the Hajj, Islam's annual pilgrimage to the birthplace of the Prophet Mohammad. The BBC broadcast from the last Kumbh Mela and advertised it as such. And CNN thought it would be understood: http://www4.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/01/25/festival.tully/ -- John Dean Oxford > Then maybe we can return to my question, namely, what would have been a > better way for Sky News Channel to say the original line? None. It identifies and educates - a similar example is referring to the "UNIX Operating System". If you don't know what "UNIX" is, "Operating System" tells you. If you don't know what an "Operating System" is, you probably won't be interested in the rest of the story. While it was 26/1/04 5:15 pm throughout the UK, Jim Ward sprinkled little black dots on a white screen, and they fell thus: <snip> > None. It identifies and educates - a similar example is referring to > the "UNIX Operating System". If you don't know what "UNIX" is, <snip> I know what Unix is, but not what UNIX is. It's a case-sensitive operating system. Stewart. SignatureMy e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox, aside from its being the unfortunate victim of intensive mail-bombing at the moment. Please keep replies on the 'group where everyone may benefit. >While it was 26/1/04 5:15 pm throughout the UK, Jim Ward sprinkled >little black dots on a white screen, and they fell thus: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I know what Unix is, but not what UNIX is. It's a case-sensitive >operating system. It's officially called "UNIX". David Jim Ward: >>> ... the "UNIX Operating System" ... Stewart Gordon: >> I know what Unix is, but not what UNIX is. ... David Wood: > It's officially called "UNIX". And so we see the intoxcation of troff. SignatureMark Brader "Those who do not understand UNIX Toronto are condemned to reinvent it." msb@vex.net -- Henry Spencer > And so we see the intoxcation of troff. You know, I *can* type beter than that, sometimes... SignatureMark Brader "Poor spelling does not prove poor knowledge, Toronto but is fatal to the argument by intimidation." msb@vex.net -- Gene Ward Smith > While it was 26/1/04 5:15 pm throughout the UK, Jim Ward sprinkled > little black dots on a white screen, and they fell thus: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I know what Unix is, but not what UNIX is. It's a case-sensitive > operating system. UNIX is the operating system described in Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson's "The UNIX Time-Sharing System", in the July, 1974, issue of CACM. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Now every hacker knows 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | That the secret to survivin' Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Is knowin' when the time is free | And what's the load and queue kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |'Cause everyone's a cruncher (650)857-7572 | And everyone's a user |And the best that you can hope for http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Is a crash when you're through John Dean started this by noting Sky News Channel's use of "Hajj Pilgrimage." Brian Macke wrote: >>I've heard "Muslim Hajj Pilgrimage" before. It may >>have worked if they said "Muslim 'Hajj' Pilgrimage" but sadly the person >>felt it needed to be qualified. Twice. And Donna Richoux; > You guys can't think that a majority of the English-speaking public (any > country) would know what the "Hajj" was, without any clue? > > What wording would you recommend that is both clear *and* > non-repetitive? The normal way to do such things is thus: "... the Hajj, the Muslim pilgrimmage, ..." SignatureMartin Ambuhl >>> Sky News Channel's latest puff for itself proclaims breathlessly >>> that later this month they will offer full coverage of the 'Hajj [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > What wording would you recommend that is both clear *and* > non-repetitive? Muslim pilgrimage (Haj) - if written. Muslim pilgrimage, known as Haj. Haj, the muslim pilgrimage. m. >> Sky News Channel's latest puff for itself proclaims breathlessly that later >> this month they will offer full coverage of the 'Hajj Pilgrimage' > >Could have been worse. I've heard "Muslim Hajj Pilgrimage" before. It may >have worked if they said "Muslim 'Hajj' Pilgrimage" but sadly the person >felt it needed to be qualified. Twice. As opposed, no doubt, to "Christian Hajj" or "Christian pilgrimage". Either hajj or pilgrimage is redundant, but "Muslim" is not, if one is referring specifically to the Muslim haj. I don't know about Muslims, but for Christians Haj refers specifically to Jerusalem. It may refer to pilgrimages to other places, but if a person has the epithet "Hadji" it means they've been to Jerusalem. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >Sky News Channel's latest puff for itself proclaims breathlessly that later >this month they will offer full coverage of the 'Hajj Pilgrimage' I've just heard some fundi on TV speaking of afian flue, and said it was a "virulent virus". Good thing it isn't a bacterial one. That might result in twice-dead ducks. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > I've just heard some fundi on TV speaking of afian flue, and said it was a > "virulent virus". > > Good thing it isn't a bacterial one. ... Er, y'know, the adjective for "virus" is "viral". "Virulent" describes one of its properties. Yes, they both come from the same Latin word. So what? SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Please correct error between chair and monitor." msb@vex.net | -- James Baughn > I've just heard some fundi on TV speaking of afian flue, and said it > was a "virulent virus". > > Good thing it isn't a bacterial one. That might result in twice-dead > ducks. [Checks dictionary] You do know that "virulent" is defined as 1 a : marked by a rapid, severe, and malignant course <a virulent infection> b : able to overcome bodily defensive mechanisms <a virulent pathogen> right? Comes from Latin "virulentus", which does come from "virus" (poison). Google shows 2,930 hits for "virulent bacteria" (as a phrase), most of the first 100 of which seem to come from scientific publications. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |To express oneself 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |In seventeen syllables Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Is very diffic | Tony Finch kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> I've just heard some fundi on TV speaking of afian flue, and said it >> was a "virulent virus". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >[Checks dictionary] You do know that "virulent" is defined as Hmm, I should have done that! > 1 a : marked by a rapid, severe, and malignant course <a virulent > infection> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >phrase), most of the first 100 of which seem to come from scientific >publications. But I just did look it up, and it said from Latin "virulentus" = full of poison, from virus poison, see Virus. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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