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The new m-w.com

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andrew - 26 Jan 2004 05:17 GMT
I hate the new M-W site. First of all it's ugly; but worse yet, they removed
all the dates from their definitions! I wonder why? Maybe they were found to
be innacurate. Does anyone know?
Donna Richoux - 26 Jan 2004 13:02 GMT
> I hate the new M-W site. First of all it's ugly; but worse yet, they removed
> all the dates from their definitions! I wonder why? Maybe they were found to
> be innacurate. Does anyone know?

Some of us have written to them to register our opinions. I suggest you
do the same, because quantity might change their minds. The more, the
merriamer.

Maybe you should ask them to explain *why* it's gone. I didn't think to
ask; I'm hoping it was just their oversight.

(See "Contact Us" at the foot of their page.)

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Best -- Donna Richoux

Bob Cunningham - 26 Jan 2004 16:12 GMT

> > I hate the new M-W site. First of all it's ugly; but worse yet, they removed
> > all the dates from their definitions! I wonder why? Maybe they were found to
> > be innacurate. Does anyone know?

> Some of us have written to them to register our opinions. I suggest you
> do the same, because quantity might change their minds. The more, the
> merriamer.

I, for one, would not complain about their dropping the
dates as long as the date applies only to the oldest sense
and not to each sense.  That restriction makes the dates
only minimally useful to me.

> Maybe you should ask them to explain *why* it's gone. I
> didn't think to ask; I'm hoping it was just their
> oversight.

We've established that the _Eleventh Edition_ of the
_Collegiate_, in the print copy, on the CD, and in the
online version, still has the dates.  This rules out the
possibility that dropping them from m-w.com reflects the
latest thinking on the part of Merriam-Webster's top
editorial management.

Oversight seems highly unlikely.  They were presumably
working from a copy of _MWCD10_, which had the dates.  It
took some doing to eliminate every inception date in the
book.  

Come to think of it, though, maybe they were working from
_MWCD11_ and they took certain steps to make the free online
version inferior to the print copy and the premium online
version.  One of them could have been elimination of the
inception dates.

To test that surmise, we need a list of words that are in
_MWCD11_ and not in _MWCD10_.  We then need to look in the
new m-w.com to see if those words are there.

Okay, there is an "Eleventh Edition New Words and Senses
Sampler" at
http://www.merriam-webstercollegiate.com/info/new_words.htm
.       `

One of the new words is "dot-commer".

The new m-w.com has no entry for "dot-commer".
_MWCD11_ has one definition for "dot-commer".

Another one is "bludge".  The new m-w.com has

   One entry found for bludge.
   Main Entry: bludge
   bludge is one of more than 1,000,000 entries
   available at Merriam-WebsterUnabridged.com. Click
   here to start your free trial!

_MWCD10_ has no entry for "bludge".

_MWCD11_ has two definitions of "bludge".

Similar story with "dead-cat bounce", "golden handcuffs",
and "killer app".

So much for that.
andrew - 26 Jan 2004 19:33 GMT
> Oversight seems highly unlikely.  They were presumably
> working from a copy of _MWCD10_, which had the dates.  It
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> version.  One of them could have been elimination of the
> inception dates.

The website uses a script to generate the entries from a database. It would
not take any manual work to remove all the dates; all they would have to do
is take out the one line in the script that prints the date, which probably
looks something like this:

   print "Date: $date<br>";
R J Valentine - 27 Jan 2004 04:55 GMT
...
} To test that surmise, we need a list of words that are in
} _MWCD11_ and not in _MWCD10_.  We then need to look in the
} new m-w.com to see if those words are there.
...

That reminded me to look for "skosh" (which seems to have made the Oxford
family of dictionaries since it was discussed in alt.usage.english some
years ago).  Sure enough, MWCD11 has it.  I don't know about MWCD10.

Signature

R. J. Valentine <mailto:rj@smart.net>
1952

Martin Ambuhl - 27 Jan 2004 05:09 GMT
> ...
> } To test that surmise, we need a list of words that are in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> family of dictionaries since it was discussed in alt.usage.english some
> years ago).  Sure enough, MWCD11 has it.  I don't know about MWCD10.

The ambiguity of "since" strikes again.  SOED4=NSOED had "skosh" in 1993.
The word itself dates to the early-mid 50s (MW: 1952, OED: 1955), so it is
possible that some pre-1993 Oxford dictionary had it.  Was the "some years
ago" of the AUE discussion prior to 1993?

Signature

Martin Ambuhl

R J Valentine - 27 Jan 2004 07:44 GMT
} R J Valentine wrote:
}> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:12:32 GMT Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote:
}> ...
}> } To test that surmise, we need a list of words that are in
}> } _MWCD11_ and not in _MWCD10_.  We then need to look in the
}> } new m-w.com to see if those words are there.
}> ...
}>
}> That reminded me to look for "skosh" (which seems to have made the Oxford
}> family of dictionaries since it was discussed in alt.usage.english some
}> years ago).  Sure enough, MWCD11 has it.  I don't know about MWCD10.
}
} The ambiguity of "since" strikes again.  SOED4=NSOED had "skosh" in 1993.
} The word itself dates to the early-mid 50s (MW: 1952, OED: 1955), so it is
} possible that some pre-1993 Oxford dictionary had it.  Was the "some years
} ago" of the AUE discussion prior to 1993?

No, you're right and I'm wrong.  It is indeed in NSOED93.  The dictionary
I was thinking about came out a few years ago, a hefty one-volume
dictionary.  Was it the _Oxford American Dictionary_?  (I can't find my
copy where I remember leaving it or where I moved stuff from around
there to.)  The discussion of it here was a couple of years before that,
when Michael Quinion was posting more regularly here.  My recollection was
that the new dictionary had a nice definition of it (but then my
recollection of where the dictionary is or should be didn't pan out).

I think the word itself made the big time when it was used in the 1970s in
a pants commercial, where they were described as having "a skosh more
room".  Before that I heard it mainly in military contexts from people who
had spent time in Japan.

But _was_ it in MWCD10?  I don't have one of those.  It's not in my copy
of Webster's Third, and I couldn't find it in the 1987 OED Supplement.

Signature

R. J. Valentine <mailto:rj@smart.net>

Martin Ambuhl - 27 Jan 2004 09:12 GMT
> No, you're right and I'm wrong.  It is indeed in NSOED93.  The dictionary
> I was thinking about came out a few years ago, a hefty one-volume
> dictionary.  Was it the _Oxford American Dictionary_?

The hefty one-volume dictionary is the _New Oxford American Dictionary_
(2001), and it has "skosh."  The _Oxford American Dictionary_ is much
smaller, is a piece of sh.t, and I have no idea if it has "skosh."

> But _was_ it in MWCD10?  I don't have one of those.  It's not in my copy
> of Webster's Third, and I couldn't find it in the 1987 OED Supplement.

I don't know about the 1987 supplement, but the OED2 had from 1989 on:

skosh, n.
 U.S. slang (orig. Forces').
(sk@US) [ad. Jap. sukoshi a little, somewhat.]
   A little, a small amount; freq. used advb. in the expression a skosh,
slightly, somewhat.
   [1955 Amer. Speech XXX. 44 Along with+everyday greetings, Bamboo
English employs sukoshi ‘few, some’ and its antonym takusan ‘plenty’, both
of which are forthwith made into two-syllable words, dispensing with the
voiceless Japanese u.]  1959 (recorded by Prof. A. L. Hench, Univ. of
Virginia) 10 May, ‘Just a skosh,’ he said. When I asked him what he meant
he said he had picked the word up in Korea. It means ‘a little bit’. ‘Just
a little bit left’ was his meaning.  1977 Detroit Free Press 19 Dec. 4-c/1
In the ad, a slightly out-of-breath jogger laments middle-age body bulge
and tells how glad he is that a new line of Levis for men is constructed
with ‘a skosh more room where I need it’.  1988 Cycle World Sept. 37/1 The
GSX-R's seat is more comfortable than the Yamaha's thinly padded perch, and
its bars are a skosh higher.

Signature

Martin Ambuhl

Evan Kirshenbaum - 27 Jan 2004 16:35 GMT
> But _was_ it in MWCD10?  I don't have one of those.

It's in the on-line version.  It's not in the Ninth (1986).

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Skitt - 27 Jan 2004 23:08 GMT
[about "skosh"]
>> But _was_ it in MWCD10?  I don't have one of those.
>
> It's in the on-line version.  It's not in the Ninth (1986).

It is in the paper edition also.  The word is dated at 1952.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/  

Pat Durkin - 28 Jan 2004 01:13 GMT
> [about "skosh"]
> >> But _was_ it in MWCD10?  I don't have one of those.
> >
> > It's in the on-line version.  It's not in the Ninth (1986).
>
> It is in the paper edition also.  The word is dated at 1952.

OK, but where is "scootch" (v. "skootch")
Skitt - 28 Jan 2004 01:19 GMT

>> [about "skosh"]
>>>> But _was_ it in MWCD10?  I don't have one of those.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> OK, but where is "scootch" (v. "skootch")

I don't know that one.
Signature

Skitt (in SF Bay Area)
... and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.
                                                    -- Sir Bedevere

Tony Cooper - 28 Jan 2004 03:39 GMT
>>> [about "skosh"]
>>>>> But _was_ it in MWCD10?  I don't have one of those.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>I don't know that one.

You never asked a girl to skootch over a bit?   To slide over towards
you?


Robert Lieblich - 28 Jan 2004 03:41 GMT
> >>> [about "skosh"]
> >>>>> But _was_ it in MWCD10?  I don't have one of those.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> You never asked a girl to skootch over a bit?   To slide over towards
> you?

I'm not at all sure that "skootch over" implies a direction.  The
results I got from using it suggest that the young lady is just as
likely to slide away.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Male wallflower

Tony Cooper - 28 Jan 2004 05:01 GMT
>> >>> [about "skosh"]
>> >>>>> But _was_ it in MWCD10?  I don't have one of those.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>results I got from using it suggest that the young lady is just as
>likely to slide away.

I never had to ask a girl to slide away.  They did that by instinct.
When they were door-hugging, there was only one way to skootch.
Skitt - 28 Jan 2004 03:46 GMT
> "Skitt" wrote:

>>>> [about "skosh"]
>>>>>> But _was_ it in MWCD10?  I don't have one of those.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> You never asked a girl to skootch over a bit?   To slide over towards
> you?

Naah, it was "scoot over" in my neck of the woods.

I've never lived nor dated in Indiana.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/  

Tony Cooper - 28 Jan 2004 05:02 GMT
>> "Skitt" wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>I've never lived nor dated in Indiana.

You've never lived until you've dated in Indiana.
Pat Durkin - 28 Jan 2004 05:12 GMT
> >>>> [about "skosh"]
> >>>>>> But _was_ it in MWCD10?  I don't have one of those.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Naah, it was "scoot over" in my neck of the woods.

It means "drag your a.s" but in a nice way.

Also, what puppies do when they have an itch in their a.s.
R J Valentine - 28 Jan 2004 04:16 GMT
} Pat Durkin wrote:
}>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
}>>> R J Valentine writes:
}  
}>> [about "skosh"]
}>>>> But _was_ it in MWCD10?  I don't have one of those.
}>>>
}>>> It's in the on-line version.  It's not in the Ninth (1986).
}>>
}>> It is in the paper edition also.  The word is dated at 1952.
}>
}> OK, but where is "scootch" (v. "skootch")
}
} I don't know that one.

"Move over a little.  Make some room for me."

Signature

R. J. Valentine <mailto:rj@smart.net>

Mike Bandy - 30 Jan 2004 14:55 GMT
>> I hate the new M-W site. First of all it's ugly; but worse yet, they removed
>> all the dates from their definitions! I wonder why? Maybe they were found to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Maybe you should ask them to explain *why* it's gone. I didn't think to
>ask; I'm hoping it was just their oversight.

...

I followed your advice and asked them why.  It wasn't an oversight.  I
expected to get a reply  from someone with a title like "Customer
Service Representative,"  The person who replied was Karen Wilkinson,
an Associate Editor.  

I wrote as a subscriber to the Unabridged Merriam-Webster, and
expressed my hope that they wouldn't be removing the feature from the
Merriam-Webster Collegiate online dictionary.  She assured me that
they had no intention of removing the feature from that dictionary.

She then wrote with some eloquence about how important the free
Merriam-Webster OnLine Dictionary is to them.  That paragraph closed
with this statement:  "However, the dates are a rather specialized
feature, and one that is much better suited to our more comprehensive
and specialized Web sites."

Signature

Mike Bandy

Robert Lieblich - 26 Jan 2004 13:06 GMT
> I hate the new M-W site. First of all it's ugly; but worse yet, they removed
> all the dates from their definitions! I wonder why? Maybe they were found to
> be innacurate. Does anyone know?

Welcome back, Andrew.  So sorry you missed the thread on this topic.
It's available at Google Groups.  Try <http://tinyurl.com/26w4c>.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Always glad to help

andrew - 26 Jan 2004 18:43 GMT
> Welcome back, Andrew.  So sorry you missed the thread on this topic.
> It's available at Google Groups.  Try <http://tinyurl.com/26w4c>.

How embarrassing. I should have checked first. I attribute this one to
laziness (the source of half of all my mistakes).
 
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