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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2004Whup his a.s and wail on his head
"Wail on his head" seems to be a fairly rare American expression (only a few googlehits). Is that usage regional, dialect or just something that's rare or rarely written down? Best regards, Spehro Pefhany  Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com "Spehro Pefhany > "Wail on his head" seems to be a fairly rare American expression (only > a few googlehits). Is that usage regional, dialect or just something > that's rare or rarely written down? "Whale" the verb means strike, lash out. M-W, for one, has it. Despite which "whale on his head" had only two google hits, and both were for the noun. Still, if you know the applicable meaning of "whale," you know what it means. SignatureBob Lieblich Baleen out now >"Spehro Pefhany >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Still, if you know the applicable meaning of "whale," you know what >it means. Thank you. I suppose it can be added to "ad nauseam" as a term that is more often misspelt than not (in a Google search of the web). Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com Spehro Pefhany <Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: > >"Spehro Pefhany > >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Thank you. I suppose it can be added to "ad nauseam" as a term that is > more often misspelt than not (in a Google search of the web). Would you mind posting exactly what words/phrases you checked, and the corresponding results? It's so rare for a word to have such a result, I'd like to see it for sure. Thanks. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>> "Spehro Pefhany >>>> "Wail on his head" seems to be a fairly rare American expression >>>> (only a few googlehits). Is that usage regional, dialect or just [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > corresponding results? It's so rare for a word to have such a result, > I'd like to see it for sure. "ad nauseam" = 66,500 hits "ad nauseum" = 77,500 hits I did not check the content for any of those hits. Were you, perhaps, asking about the whaling/wailing thing? I tried the two words in combination with "away", and the wrong word won again, but there might be context validating that -- I didn't bother to check, but I noted some of that in the meager data presented on the first page of the hits. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > > Spehro Pefhany wrote: > >> Thank you. I suppose it can be added to "ad nauseam" as a term that > >> is more often misspelt than not (in a Google search of the web). [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Were you, perhaps, asking about the whaling/wailing thing? Yes, sorry. I knew about the nauseam/nauseum thing. > I tried the two words in combination with "away", and the wrong word won > again, See how ambiguous language is? I don't know if that means, the one that was spelled wrong won, or the one you didn't want to win won. >but there might be context validating that -- I didn't bother to > check, but I noted some of that in the meager data presented on the first > page of the hits. I'll take a look. "whale on him" 165 "wail on him" 320 Ratio 0.5:1 Those are low counts, but the first hits do appear to be the same meaning. So Sphero was right, and this goes into the record books. The only other one I have on my list, besides ad nauseam/nauseum, is "didn't use to" and "didn't used to". SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>> Spehro Pefhany wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > See how ambiguous language is? I don't know if that means, the one > that was spelled wrong won, Yup, that one won. > or the one you didn't want to win won. >> but there might be context validating that -- I didn't bother to >> check, but I noted some of that in the meager data presented on the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > only other one I have on my list, besides ad nauseam/nauseum, is > "didn't use to" and "didn't used to". Ah, that one. OK. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ Donna Richoux filted: >I'll take a look. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >only other one I have on my list, besides ad nauseam/nauseum, is "didn't >use to" and "didn't used to". Did you happen to check "wale on him"?...a vague memory of that spelling as a noun (for ribs in a fabric) led me to a verb meaning "to raise welts", which seems to fit better than either of the spellings suggested....r > Donna Richoux filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > noun (for ribs in a fabric) led me to a verb meaning "to raise welts", which > seems to fit better than either of the spellings suggested....r No, I didn't, but it looks promising. And it might explain the low numbers. Odd that M-W doesn't have it, even as a variant spelling. Nor does the Dictionary of American English, but they are very choosy. Ah, American Heritage has under "wale": NOUN: 1. A mark raised on the skin, as by a whip; a weal or welt. 2a. One of the parallel ribs or ridges in the surface of a fabric such as corduroy. b. The texture or weave of such a fabric: a wide wale. 3. Nautical a. A gunwale. b. One of the heavy planks or strakes extending along the sides of a wooden ship. TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: waled, wal·ing, wales To raise marks on (the skin), as by whipping. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Old English, variant of walu. Unfortunately, a Google of "wale on him" is even lower - 14! "Waled on" is 86, and a few are accidental. I don't have any more time to look into this today, but maybe this spelling has been languishing for some time. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >Donna Richoux filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >noun (for ribs in a fabric) led me to a verb meaning "to raise welts", which >seems to fit better than either of the spellings suggested....r That spelling looks familiar. My mother used the word, as in, "Your going to get a good waling if you don't stop right now!" I have also heard, in street use, "He waled on him!" to describe an exceptionally thorough beating. Since most of the people I knew growing up were children of Irish immigrants I would suspect that the word would be familiar in Ireland and even Scotland. Brian Wickham > >Donna Richoux filted: > >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > children of Irish immigrants I would suspect that the word would be > familiar in Ireland and even Scotland. This seems to me to be more a regional pronunciation problem than anything else: What/wat, which/wich. My mother used to "whale the daylights out of" us. ( which is to say nothing of its etymology, of course.) >> That spelling looks familiar. My mother used the word, as in, "Your >> going to get a good waling if you don't stop right now!" I have also [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >My mother used to "whale the daylights out of" us. ( which is to say >nothing of its etymology, of course.) Yes Pat, but your and my mother never spelt it out, they just waled away. So if the word 'wale' means to raise welts then that must be what both of them meant. My inclination, without putting any thought to it would have been to spell it 'wail', as 'whale' seems to be nonsensical in the extreme. That, of course, would make both of us wrong. But I don't understand why you brought up pronunciation. I thought it was implicit that all three spellings were pronounced the same. Brian Brian Wickham filted: >Yes Pat, but your and my mother never spelt it out, they just waled >away. So if the word 'wale' means to raise welts then that must be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >But I don't understand why you brought up pronunciation. I thought it >was implicit that all three spellings were pronounced the same. They're not, exactly...some people *do* aspirate "whale"...others are probably like the reporter responsible for labelling a picture of the late Diana as "Princess of Whales" (I have this somewhere but it may take me some time to find it).... Others don't...the voice actors filling in for the Beatles in "Yellow Submarine" did a truly silly gag about encountering a school of whales, then judging them too old for school, suggesting they must be a university...University of Whales.... I believe the "wale" version is related to one pronunciation of the word "weal" (for "wound"), and as you point out "wail" means to cry out so there's at least some folk logic to justify that one...I can't make any sense at all out of "if you don't stop poking me I'm gonna whale on you"; am I threatened with assault with a large cetacean?...r > >> That spelling looks familiar. My mother used the word, as in, "Your > >> going to get a good waling if you don't stop right now!" I have also [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > But I don't understand why you brought up pronunciation. I thought it > was implicit that all three spellings were pronounced the same. Well, but I thought I demonstrated that, depending on region, the word may have differing pronunciations. I would, following my life experience, and probably 90% of my reading experience, spell the word as "whale", and pronounce the "h", just as I do in "which", and "what". Let me add: "white". Pronunciation is not implicit in spelling, especially in the English language. (have you seen the pew/phew conversation?) But if you feel my comments are leading offtopic, then by all means, ignore, please. >"Brian Wickham" <bwickham@NO~SPAM.nyc.rr.com> wrote in message >> Yes Pat, but your and my mother never spelt it out, they just waled >> away. So if the word 'wale' means to raise welts then that must be [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >pronounce the "h", just as I do in "which", and "what". Let me add: >"white". I stand corrected. I was not really aware that anyone pronounced the 'h' in 'which', 'what', 'white' or 'whale' except when trying for emphasis. I have not heard it in my region, or in a lifetime of movies, radio and TV. But then it could be something for which I just wasn't listening. Doesn't all this show that if the word is properly spelled 'wale' then by your standard you are mispronouncing it by inserting an 'h'? Or by citing your reading experience are you claiming that you usually see it spelled as 'whale'? I can't actually recall ever seeing it in print in the context we are discussing. Brian > >"Brian Wickham" <bwickham@NO~SPAM.nyc.rr.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Doesn't all this show that if the word is properly spelled 'wale' then > by your standard you are mispronouncing it by inserting an 'h'? Since the etymology is in question, I think we can't say _what_ the proper spelling is. It seems to me that was what some people were speculating about. >Or by > citing your reading experience are you claiming that you usually see > it spelled as 'whale'? I can't actually recall ever seeing it in > print in the context we are discussing. I'll be darned if I can think of a single work in which either/any of the possible spellings appears. OK. Here's a google with 24 (always reducible for duplications)possibles, using "whale the daylights" as a search phrase: http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z1C341C37 2 of them are pretty dated: (Song of the South script, and "The Circus Boys, etc.") 2 of 6 possibles show up for "wail the daylights" and none for "wale the daylights" (Donna's search strings and results were : I'll take a look. "whale on him" 165 "wail on him" 320 Ratio 0.5:1 ) M-W doesn't show this meaning for "wail", it gives "to make welts" for wale ( I think of a material like corduroy that has the name "wale" as a suffix, but can't think of the word at the moment. "gunnel>gunwale"? Note that the first (usually the more common, if not preferred) pronunciation below has hwA, or the aspirated "h" sound. M-W: 20 entries found for whale. Main Entry: 1whale Pronunciation: 'hwA(&)l, 'wA(&)l Main Entry: 3whale Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): whaled; whal·ing Etymology: origin unknown 1 : LASH, THRASH 2 : to strike or hit vigorously 3 : to defeat soundly (personal: I don't see any reason why the sourcing of the verb can't simply relate to the thrashing of a fish or a whale, but you didn't know my mom! Oh, I think another word she used was "whelp" with the first pronunciation and both meanings. LOL! Main Entry: 1whelp Pronunciation: 'hwelp, 'welp Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hwelp; akin to Old High German hwelf whelp 1 : any of the young of various carnivorous mammals and especially of the dog 2 : a young boy or girl (Brian, if you read "whippersnapper" or just "whip", do you pronouce the "h"? and if a lawyer says he doesn't give one "whit", do you hear/say "wit"? What is your region of residence, and where did you spend your accent-forming years? Just curious. I am lifelong upper Midwest, of basically 4th-5th generation English-speaking Irish-Americans.) (Whop/wop>take that!) and I will understand if I am beating a dead horse to the point you won't want further conversation. I hope someone else will post one of those regional pronunciation identifier sites. I can't find anything but the upenn Labov site. Too many sites in my "favorites". > "Brian Wickham" <bwickham@NO~SPAM.nyc.rr.com> wrote in message [snip] > >Or by citing your reading experience are you claiming that you usually > >see it spelled as 'whale'? I can't actually recall ever seeing it in > >print in the context we are discussing. > > I'll be darned if I can think of a single work in which either/any of the > possible spellings appears. MasterTexts.com comes through. Four hits, all US: one Twain and three Londons: Adventures of Huckleberry Finn - Chapter - 3 - MasterTexts(TM) ... He used to always whale me when he was sober and could get his hands on me; though I used to take to the woods most of the time when he was around. ... Twain_Mark The Jacket (Star-Rover) - Chapter - 6 - MasterTexts(TM) ... You ask Dad an' Ma if I tell lies. He'd whale the stuffin' out of me if I did. ... London_Jack The Call of the Wild - 1 - Into the Primitive - MasterTexts(TM) ... Be a bad dog, and I'll whale the stuffin' outa you. Understand?". ... London_Jack Smoke Bellew - Chapter - 1 - MasterTexts(TM) ... I think he'd have whaled all this musical and artistic tomfoolery out of you.". ... London_Jack There were no hits for "wale" or "waled," except for some Dickensian dialectal pronunciations of "vale" and "veil." All the hits for "wail" and "wailed" refered to cries of woe. > OK. Here's a google with 24 (always reducible for duplications)possibles, > using "whale the daylights" as a search phrase: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > and none for "wale the daylights" Interesting. This word is mysterious. > (Donna's search strings and results were : > I'll take a look. > > "whale on him" 165 > "wail on him" 320 Ratio 0.5:1 ) and "wale on him" 14 Maybe it's time to check how many of those 320 "wail" meant something else. > M-W doesn't show this meaning for "wail", it gives "to make welts" for wale > ( I think of a material like corduroy that has the name "wale" as a suffix, > but can't think of the word at the moment. "gunnel>gunwale"? "Pin-wale" is corduroy with very narrow ribs, "wide-wale corduroy" has, of course, wide ribs. > Note that the first (usually the more common, if not preferred) > pronunciation below has hwA, or the aspirated "h" sound. [snip] > I hope someone else will post one of those regional pronunciation identifier > sites. I can't find anything but the upenn Labov site. I'm not certain what you mean, but there several possibly useful sites in Intro B under "Audio Archives." >Too many sites in my "favorites". Did you know you can use the "Find" command to search within your favorites? In I-Explorer 5.0, you start by going to Organize Favorites. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > "Brian Wickham" <bwickham@NO~SPAM.nyc.rr.com> wrote in message > [snip] [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > using "whale the daylights" as a search phrase: > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z1C341C37 > Interesting. This word is mysterious. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Maybe it's time to check how many of those 320 "wail" meant something > else. To tell the truth, Twain's dialect spellings usually differ so much from some of the things I expect, that I would have sworn he would have either of the other two spellings. I am much encouraged by Mom's usage. (I doubt that I have ever had occasion to "whale the daylights out of anyone.) > > M-W doesn't show this meaning for "wail", it gives "to make welts" for wale > > ( I think of a material like corduroy that has the name "wale" as a suffix, > > but can't think of the word at the moment. "gunnel>gunwale"? > > "Pin-wale" is corduroy with very narrow ribs, "wide-wale corduroy" has, > of course, wide ribs. There we are. Thanks, Donna. Of course that hole in my brain will have moved on to fresher locations by tomorrow. > > Note that the first (usually the more common, if not preferred) > > pronunciation below has hwA, or the aspirated "h" sound. > I'm not certain what you mean, but there several possibly useful sites > in Intro B under "Audio Archives." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Did you know you can use the "Find" command to search within your > favorites? In I-Explorer 5.0, you start by going to Organize Favorites. OK, Donna, thanks again. I will use the hints. (one of them was a site in which, state by state, certain pronunciations and uses were defined as the result of self polling--the one about the terrace/verge/parking strip/boulevard is the first that comes to mind, but there is at least one other.) I will check Intro B first. > (one of them was a site in which, state by state, certain pronunciations > and uses were defined as the result of self polling--the one about the > terrace/verge/parking strip/boulevard is the first that comes to mind, but > there is at least one other.) I will check Intro B first. This one? It has that question, at #60: Dialect Survey Maps and Results - Over 100 US regionalisms http://hcs.harvard.edu/~golder/dialect/maps.php SignatureBest - Donna Richoux > > (one of them was a site in which, state by state, certain pronunciations > > and uses were defined as the result of self polling--the one about the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Dialect Survey Maps and Results - Over 100 US regionalisms > http://hcs.harvard.edu/~golder/dialect/maps.php Thank you, Donna. I now have it in 2 folders, Search and Usage. It is the one I was thinking of. It doesn't have any discussion of wich/which, of course, but every time I have looked there I have found something interesting. (For example, I am among the 3.85% who say "crick" for "creek". I was raised saying that, but now that I have encountered it so much in reading, the word gives me pause. I have to judge the material and the audience --if reading it aloud-- as to whether I should insert a touch of country into the reading.) You have saved me quite some time in the search, even if I must go on. Now, I think the discussions of the aspirated "h" in whale, etc. was in another location that may or may not have demonstrated the regional lines between the greasy/easy pair. (I won't mention polecat/skunk--we did that one to death-- but I now wonder if the old pin/pen bifurcation doesn't reapply.) I haven't gone to Intro B, yet. ... > I'll take a look. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > only other one I have on my list, besides ad nauseam/nauseum, is "didn't > use to" and "didn't used to". What happened to "dalmation"? SignatureJerry Friedman > trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote > > "whale on him" 165 > > "wail on him" 320 Ratio 0.5:1 And for the record, "wale on him" 14 (Apparently historically correct.) > > Those are low counts, but the first hits do appear to be the same > > meaning. So Sphero was right, and this goes into the record books. The > > only other one I have on my list, besides ad nauseam/nauseum, is "didn't > > use to" and "didn't used to". > > What happened to "dalmation"? It had a very low ratio, only l.5:1, but it didn't drop below l:l. The correct spelling still won out. In my notes I have: dalmatian 95,200 dalmation 62,100 ratio 1.5:1 If any of you are troubled as to which is correct, it may help to remember that dalmatiAns come from DalmatiA. (That, by the way, is the coastal region of what used to be Yugoslavia, now Croatia.) SignatureBest - Donna Richoux >> I'll take a look. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What happened to "dalmation"? Loses 1:3 to the correct spelling. "Accordion" (correct) gets 8:1 over "accordian". SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ Spehro Pefhany <Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote: > "Wail on his head" seems to be a fairly rare American expression (only > a few googlehits). Is that usage regional, dialect or just something > that's rare or rarely written down? Could it be to "whale on", to hit someone? SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >Spehro Pefhany <Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >Could it be to "whale on", to hit someone? Yes, it must be. OED1 speculates that it may have come from thrashing with a whalebone whip. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com >> Spehro Pefhany <Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Yes, it must be. OED1 speculates that it may have come from thrashing > with a whalebone whip. Funny. I had a recollection of 'wail on' (with that spelling) being used in Douglas Coupland's 'Microserfs'. I dunno where my copy is right now, though I *still* believe it said 'wail on'. But Amazon 'Look Inside' happens to have page one as part of its excerpt and it is, undoubtedly, 'whale on'. http://makeashorterlink.com/?D13C52637 I would have expected 'wail on' to have some relation to music, particularly blues. But apparently not. -- John Dean Oxford >>> Spehro Pefhany <Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I would have expected 'wail on' to have some relation to music, > particularly blues. But apparently not. Oh, just check "wail away". There's a lot of those that refer to music. Here's one: http://www.411mania.com/music/reviews/article.php?reviews_id=2334 Here's one with "wailing on": http://www.oakridger.com/stories/062600/new_0626000045.html and there's "He likes to get up onstage and wail on his sax all loud and fast" at http://www.thestranger.com/2003-12-18/music4.html SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>> Spehro Pefhany <Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I would have expected 'wail on' to have some relation to music, particularly >blues. But apparently not. Trumpet players "wail", but you might be thinking of the annual Wareham Wail in Dorset. It's a fairly well-known venue for trad singers. Spehro Pefhany <Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat>> wrote: > "Wail on his head" seems to be a fairly rare American expression > (only a few googlehits). Is that usage regional, dialect or just > something that's rare or rarely written down? "Whale on", as a synonym for "thrash", was popular when I were a lad, though I never knew how to spell it. Googling for "wail on him" vs. "whale on him" gives about a 2:1 ratio, though a significant number of the "whale" hits refer to a marine mammal. "Wail on his head", specifically, is a new one to me. SignatureRay Heindl (remove the Xs to reply) In our last episode, <p9jd101jbb4unpa5jhr1i5siedsk06p6bg@4ax.com>, the lovely and talented Spehro Pefhany broadcast on alt.usage.english: > "Wail on his head" seems to be a fairly rare American expression (only > a few googlehits). Is that usage regional, dialect or just something > that's rare or rarely written down? Try "whale." SignatureLars Eighner -finger for geek code- eighner@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ There is not enough magic in a bloodline to forge an instant, irrevocable bond. --James Earl Jones >In our last episode, ><p9jd101jbb4unpa5jhr1i5siedsk06p6bg@4ax.com>, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Try "whale." And if he was playing crack the whip, try "wale". |
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