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L.L.Bean

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J. W. Love - 30 Jan 2004 03:22 GMT
An author submitted a text that mentioned

        L.L. Bean

(an outdoors-themed clothing company). Editing for print, I first changed it to
the standard American form:

        L. L. Bean

but then checked the company's homepage and saw, all over the place,

        L.L.Bean

(periods, no spaces), with the assertion that "L.L.Bean(R) is a registered
trademark of L.L.Bean, Inc." The homepage title as seen on the homepage itself
reads

        Welcome to L.L.Bean

(periods, no spaces), but Google reports that as

        Welcome to LL.Bean

(dropping a period, unless my screen is acting funny). Many websites spell the
company's name Google's way, or as

        LL Bean

(no periods, one space). The urge to separate the initials from the "Bean," or
to link the initials by cutting one period (but not the other), seems strong.

Will most readers, seeing the trademark spelled in its registered and therefore
presumably correct form, as "L.L.Bean" (periods, no spaces), think an error has
been made? What's an editor to do?
Evan Kirshenbaum - 30 Jan 2004 05:15 GMT
> An author submitted a text that mentioned
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> (periods, no spaces), with the assertion that "L.L.Bean(R) is a
> registered trademark of L.L.Bean, Inc."

Looking at the USPTO site, I see several trademarks (for different
classes of goods) for "L.L. BEAN", whose owner is listed as
"L. L. Bean, Inc."  There is also a trademark for "L. L. BEAN"
covering, I kid you not, "automobiles", whose owner is listed as
"L.L. Bean, Inc".  For the "stylized form" marks, most of them appear
closer to "L.L.Bean" and several of them are indexed as such
(including one indexed as "L.L Bean" even though it clearly has the
second period).

Make of this what you will.  I make of it that such distinctions are
seen as legally irrelevent.

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Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
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John Varela - 30 Jan 2004 22:16 GMT
> There is also a trademark for "L. L. BEAN"
> covering, I kid you not, "automobiles",

Subaru makes an L.L.Bean (periods, no apaces) "edition" of the Outback.

http://www.llbean.com/outdoorsOnline/subaru/?feat=ln

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(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much.

Ross Howard - 30 Jan 2004 05:48 GMT
>An author submitted a text that mentioned
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>presumably correct form, as "L.L.Bean" (periods, no spaces), think an error has
>been made? What's an editor to do?

Try the editor's editor, Bill Walsh, on wrangling with the worst
excesses of CorporateTypography at

http://www.theslot.com/webnames.html

and

http://www.theslot.com/caps.html

He doesn't address spaces specifically, but I think it's safe to
assume he'd restore L.L. Bean's without a second thought.

--
Ross Howard
J. W. Love - 30 Jan 2004 14:50 GMT
Ross wrote:

>He doesn't address spaces specifically, but I think
>it's safe to assume he'd restore L.L. Bean's without
>a second thought.

But house style requires "L. L. Bean" (two spaces). Despite the variety we've
found, I'm still worried about altering a registered trademark. Would it be OK
to call an iPalm an Ipalm or an I-Palm? How about Coca-Cola? may we cut the
hyphen? How about TelePrompTer? copyreaders are urged to preserve those capital
letters. If popular history is right, we have escalators instead of Escalators
because the company didn't prosecute rigorously enough the publishers who
lowercased its registered name.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 30 Jan 2004 17:14 GMT
> Ross wrote:
>
> >He doesn't address spaces specifically, but I think it's safe to
> >assume he'd restore L.L. Bean's without a second thought.
>
> But house style requires "L. L. Bean" (two spaces).

As I said in another message, the USPTO doesn't seem to have any
problem writing it that way, so I wouldn't worry.

> Despite the variety we've found, I'm still worried about altering a
> registered trademark. Would it be OK to call an iPalm an Ipalm or an
> I-Palm?  How about Coca-Cola? may we cut the hyphen? How about
> TelePrompTer?

Okay, were into IANAL territory here, but my understanding is that the
name of a company is not a trademark.  It may resemble or be
indentical to a trademark they own, but the trademark is on the use of
the word or phrase with respect to a particular good or service.  So
referring to the company itself in the style they like is pretty much
just courtesy.  (And courtesy that's often not followed.  I work for a
company called "Hewlett-Packard" and abbreviated "HP".  Financial
people routinely refer to it as "Hewlett", as if one of them had been
the senior partner rather than having the order determined by a coin
flip, and many newspapers insist on abbreviating it as "H-P".  Both of
these grate, but I don't know of any official complaints.)

It's a little trickier when you're talking about products, like
"iPalm", because there you're referring specifically to the product
covered by the trademark.  I suspect that your house style is to
respect the preferred styling, although I doubt that anybody has ever
had problems with, say "COCA-COLA" in a headline.

> copyreaders are urged to preserve those capital letters. If popular
> history is right, we have escalators instead of Escalators because
> the company didn't prosecute rigorously enough the publishers who
> lowercased its registered name.

Sort of, but not necessarily to say that they had any actual claim
against the publishers.  You have to prevent the word from "[becoming]
the generic name for the goods or services ... for which it is
registered" (15 USC 1064).  In the case of something like "escalator",
it wasn't "rigorously enough" not because they didn't meet some legal
standard for rigorousness but rather because it manifestly did become
the generic and ceased to be identified with their particular product.

There's another reason, though, from the same section, that they might
*have to* complain.  You also can lose the mark

   if the registered mark is being used ... with the permission of
   the registrant so as to misrepresent the source of the goods or
   services on or in connection with which the mark is used.

It wouldn't surprise me that if they didn't have a pattern of
complaining whenever they saw somebody use the word "escalator" to
refer to a moving stairway that wasn't one of theirs it would be
construed as "giving permission" for the use.  

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   Palo Alto, CA  94304               |a 'difficult' problem, and what
                                      |*is* a difficult problem. The day
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J. W. Love - 30 Jan 2004 17:48 GMT
Evan wrote:

>So referring to the company itself in the style they like is
>pretty much just courtesy.

Thanks for that, with the accompanying details. I feel better now.
R J Valentine - 30 Jan 2004 06:13 GMT
} Will most readers, seeing the trademark spelled in its registered and
} therefore presumably correct form, as "L.L.Bean" (periods, no spaces),
} think an error has been made? What's an editor to do?

Sic 'im.

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R. J. Valentine <mailto:rj@smart.net>

Charles Riggs - 30 Jan 2004 07:29 GMT
...about all the possible variations on L.L. Bean.

To any newcomers out there: welcome to alt.usage.english.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Evan Kirshenbaum - 30 Jan 2004 17:15 GMT
> ...about all the possible variations on L.L. Bean.
>
> To any newcomers out there: welcome to alt.usage.english.

I'm surprised at your response.  This would seem to be an entirely
on-topic question about (written) English usage.

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Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
   HP Laboratories                    |English grammar is not taught in
   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |primary or secondary schools in the
   Palo Alto, CA  94304               |United States.  Sometimes some
                                      |mythology is taught under that
   kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com             |rubric, but luckily it's usually
   (650)857-7572                      |ignored, except by the credulous.
                                      |             John Lawler
   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Charles Riggs - 31 Jan 2004 05:36 GMT
>> ...about all the possible variations on L.L. Bean.
>>
>> To any newcomers out there: welcome to alt.usage.english.
>
>I'm surprised at your response.  This would seem to be an entirely
>on-topic question about (written) English usage.

Entirely so for the pedants who inhabit AUE, less so for an ordinary
AUE Joe like myself more interested in writing than in rolling bits of
toilet paper into tiny balls then sticking them in my nose or in my
ears.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

 
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