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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2008Three wafers
Hello: Would you know what is he doing with those three wafers? Sealing the envelope? Also, does "was knocking about the study" mean "was moving from one place to another within the study, as though jabbed/yanked" ? ------ Every Thursday evening he wrote a long letter to his mother with red ink and three wafers; then he went over his history note-books, or read an old volume of "Anarchasis" that was knocking about the study. Madame Bovary by Gustave Flaubert, translated by Eleanor Marx-Aveling http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Madame_Bovary/Part_I/Chapter_I ------ The original is: ------ Le soir de chaque jeudi, il écrivait une longue lettre à sa mère, avec de l'encre rouge et trois pains à cacheter ; puis il repassait ses cahiers d'histoire, ou bien lisait un vieux volume d'Anacharsis qui traînait dans l'étude. ------ Thanks. Marius Hancu >Hello: > >Would you know what is he doing with those three wafers? >Sealing the envelope? Probably: AHD wafer 4. A small disk of adhesive material used as a seal for papers. Oxford French/English dictionary - pain à cacheter : bar of sealing wax; >Also, does >"was knocking about the study" >mean >"was moving from one place to another within the study, as though >jabbed/yanked" >? No, it means that it was in the study over some time, appearing in different places because of being moved from time to time. It's a metaphor that attributes the resulting random motion to the book itself, but not in a sudden or violent sense. >------ >Every Thursday evening he wrote a long letter to his mother with red [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >traînait dans l'étude. >------  SignatureJohn > Oxford French/English dictionary - pain à cacheter : bar of sealing > wax; This must be it. I know the object:-) > >Also, does > >"was knocking about the study" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > metaphor that attributes the resulting random motion to the book > itself, but not in a sudden or violent sense. Thank you very much. Marius Hancu > Hello: > > Would you know what is he doing with those three wafers? > Sealing the envelope? Yes. In the original, "cacheter" is to seal. "Pains" must mean "wafers", because he would hardly use three sticks of wax to seal one letter. > Also, does "was knocking about the study" mean > "was moving from one place to another within the study, as though > jabbed/yanked" ? "Traîner dans" ("traîner"is literally "to drag") means something like "hang about" or "loiter in", so I don't know if the translator intended to convey any idea of motion. It seems to me that "knock about", as a twentieth-century BrE idiom, puts more emphasis on aimlessness. > Every Thursday evening he wrote a long letter to his mother with red > ink and three wafers; then he went over his history note-books, or [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Thanks. > Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Every Thursday evening he wrote a long letter to his mother with red > ink and three wafers; > Madame Bovary by Gustave Flaubert, translated by Eleanor Marx-Aveling > http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Madame_Bovary/Part_I/Chapter_I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > traînait dans l'étude. > ------ I thought we talked about wafers some time back, the kind that were used to seal letters, but I don't find it now. The "pain à cacheter" thing is a bit of a puzzle. It seems to have had different meanings. The ARTFL dictionary says it literally was unleavened bread used for hiding things (like a pita pocket?): Dictionnaire de L'Académie française, 4th Edition (1762) PAIN À CACHETER Sorte de petit pain sans levain, dont on se sert pour cacheter des lettres. A site discussing French-English medical terms shows that "pain à cacheter" is used in discussing "glomerular sclerosis" -- apparently, pale pink discs that appear, and, I imagine, reminded someone of sealing wafers. http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/medical_general/1902414-pain _a_cacheter.html I don't find any direct statement that "pain à cacheter" does mean a sealing-wafer, myself, but it seems perfectly believable. It could be a case where an older name was transferred metaphorically to a different object that performed a similar function. "Pen" has survived various technologies. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > object that performed a similar function. "Pen" has survived various > technologies. The "sealing-wafer" sense is in Collins-Robert. Sealing-wafers /were/ made with a flour paste, and similar things were used to administer medication. If you think about a communion wafer (much the same material as an ice-cream wafer or cone), it's easy to imagine both uses. A bit of a stretch to extend it to a stick of sealing-wax, but, as you say, people do that kind of thing. Somewhere there's a reference to sealing wafers made of paper, distinguished as "paper wafers". -- Mike. >> > Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >uses. A bit of a stretch to extend it to a stick of sealing-wax, but, >as you say, people do that kind of thing. Might it refer to a wax seal (a disc) rather than the stick from which it came? >Somewhere there's a >reference to sealing wafers made of paper, distinguished as "paper >wafers". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On May 28, 5:59�pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > On Wed, 28 May 2008 06:01:43 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lyle > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > Might it refer to a wax seal (a disc) rather than the stick from > which it came? That sounds reasonable in its own right, doesn't it? But less convioncing when the other seal actually is made of flour. But then, again, the Frecnh for "[edible] wafer" is /gaufrette/ ... > >Somewhere there's a > >reference to sealing wafers made of paper, distinguished as "paper > >wafers". Ob. gratuitous information, Wikipee says Oreos are the most popular cookie in China, but made in a local variant which is more wafery than biscuity. -- Mike. > On May 28, 5:59�pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > cookie in China, but made in a local variant which is more wafery than > biscuity. ObAlmostOnTopic: when I lived in Taiwan in the mid-70s, we sealed envelopes with leftover rice (cold) from the rice cooker. It's sufficiently sticky that you just smear a tiny bit of it and crush it between the two layers of paper and it all sticks quite nicely. Presumably this doesn't work if you cook Uncle Ben's or something else in a way such that the rice isn't ...sticky.... The envelopes didn't come with any adhesive on them and I found this disconcerting until I watched one of my housemates use rice this way. Stephanie in Brussels where other things seem odd from time to time but I've found a good market where I can buy the right kind of rice Donna Richoux a écrit : [...] > The "pain à cacheter" thing is a bit of a puzzle. It seems to have had > different meanings. The ARTFL dictionary says it literally was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (1762) PAIN À CACHETER Sorte de petit pain sans levain, > dont on se sert pour cacheter des lettres. [...] "Cacheter" means "to close a letter with a seal", and comes from the word "cachet", meaning a "seal". It's true that there's an etymological relation between "cachet" and "cacher" = to hide, but not in the way we might imagine. There used to be an older verb "cacher", which meant "to press down", hence the idea of imprinting. Here's a photo showing what "pains à cacheter" looked like: http://web.telia.com/~u13101111/munlack.html SignatureIsabelle Cecchini > Donna Richoux a écrit : > [...] [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "Cacheter" means "to close a letter with a seal", and comes from the > word "cachet", meaning a "seal". Oh, thank you. I didn't realize. > It's true that there's an etymological relation between "cachet" and > "cacher" = to hide, but not in the way we might imagine. There used to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Here's a photo showing what "pains à cacheter" looked like: > http://web.telia.com/~u13101111/munlack.html Just what I hoped for. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > Donna Richoux a écrit : > > [...] [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Just what I hoped for. I meant to ask: do you think when the dictionary says "Sorte de petit pain sans levain" they truly mean a bit of little bread? It sounds odd, but after Stephanie's rice story, and thinking about "flour-and-water paste," I can imagine that if someone provided a little dab of dough, processed and dried in some way, and we soaked it in water, it would be sticky enough to serve. Then maybe someone figured that it would be an improvement to apply this paste to one side of a paper and sell that. Paste, pasta, and pastry are all cognates, after all... SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Donna Richoux a écrit : >>> Donna Richoux a écrit : >>> [...] [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Paste, pasta, and pastry are all cognates, after all... The 19th-century Larousse dictionary explains how those sealing wafers were manufactured: they consisted of a mix of just water and flour, thinly spread in a sort of waffle-maker and then cut off in little bits. The wafers used for communion in the Catholic church are manufactured in the same way and have a very similar look. It's usual to refer to them as "bread" as well: they are considered as unleavened bread. Larousse says that sealing wafers are often coloured, and that great care must be taken in the choice of colouring agent, as the wafer is going to touch the lips of the end-user, thereby possibly causing poisoning. So the way to make the wafers sticky again was by licking them. SignatureIsabelle Cecchini Isabelle Cecchini a écrit : > thinly spread in a sort of waffle-maker, <insert "cooked"> and then cut off in little bits. SignatureIsabelle Cecchini [...] > The 19th-century Larousse dictionary explains how those sealing wafers > were manufactured: they consisted of a mix of just water and flour, thinly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the same way and have a very similar look. It's usual to refer to them as > "bread" as well: they are considered as unleavened bread. Widely used in the Anglican as well as the RC church. They are sometimes termed "breads". > Larousse says that sealing wafers are often coloured, and that great care > must be taken in the choice of colouring agent, as the wafer is going to > touch the lips of the end-user, thereby possibly causing poisoning. So the > way to make the wafers sticky again was by licking them. Alan Jones >> > Donna Richoux a écrit : >> > [...] [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >Paste, pasta, and pastry are all cognates, after all... The "ding" you just heard was the realization of that. Neat! Signatureroses are #FF0000 violets are #0000FF all my base are belong to you > > ------ > > Le soir de chaque jeudi, il écrivait une longue lettre à sa mère, avec [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > (1762) PAIN À CACHETER Sorte de petit pain sans levain, > dont on se sert pour cacheter des lettres. That's clear:-) Thank you very much. Marius Hancu |
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