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Does anyone have this Safire book?

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Donna Richoux - 13 Jun 2008 09:51 GMT
Does anyone have access to the book  "In Love with Norma Loquendi" by
William Safire? Apparently he discusses the origins of "to hell in a
handbasket" (barrow, etc) on pages 286-288 and I'd like to know what he
found. Google view is snippet (for me anyway).

The topic is currently under discussion in another thread.

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Thanks -- Donna Richoux

Woody Wordpecker - 13 Jun 2008 13:13 GMT
> Does anyone have access to the book  "In Love with Norma Loquendi" by
> William Safire?

I have it.

> Apparently he discusses the origins of "to hell in a
> handbasket" (barrow, etc) on pages 286-288 and I'd like to know what he
> found. Google view is snippet (for me anyway).
>
> The topic is currently under discussion in another thread.
Woody Wordpecker - 13 Jun 2008 14:04 GMT
> > Does anyone have access to the book  "In Love with Norma Loquendi" by
> > William Safire?
>
> I have it.

It's "Copyright © 1994 by The Cobbett Corporation".  I think
my quoting here paragraphs from the handbasket article is
legitimate under the concept of fair use.  Does anyone
disagree?

> > Apparently he discusses the origins of "to hell in a
> > handbasket" (barrow, etc) on pages 286-288 and I'd like to know what he
> > found.

He discusses the topic for about a page and a half, and he
has comments from his readers going on for about another two
pages.  The most pertinent parts of his remarks are in three
paragraphs:

  The origin is believed to be _to heaven in a
  handbasket_, a locution that _Dialect Notes_ spotted
  in 1913 in Kansas, where it was taken to mean "to
  have a sinecure."  One who was nicely ensconced in
  an untouchable job was said to be on the way _to
  heaven in a handbasket_.  When used in Wisconsin a
  decade later, the term was defined as "to do
  something easily."

  Then the direction changed.  The alliteration
  remained the same, but the first stage of this
  rocket dropped off and was lost in the sea of
  archaic phrases; the second stage, with _hell_
  substituted for _heaven_, took us to where we are
  today:  The meaning is "to degenerate rapidly; to
  fall apart suddenly."

  [...]

  The key quality is portability; the basket is
  small enough to be carried in one hand, and anything
  in it is little or light.  From a couple of centuries
  after its coinage, the word lent itself to
  belittlement in phrasemaking.  In the play _Juliana,
  or the Princess of Poland_ by John Crowne in 1671, a
  character says, "I can see when I see, surely; I don't
  carry my eyes in a hand-basket."

In the article, Safire digresses into discussions of other
phrases, including "long in the tooth" and "dressed to the
nines".  The responses from readers also discuss those
phrases.  

But one reader response, from James Mills of Glen Head, New
York, tells of seeing paintings "in 220 village churches in
Denmark" from "one group of painters, the Isefjord Workshop,
who worked about 1450"--in which sinners were being "pushed
into hell in a wheelbarrow".  I think that may have been
discussed by someone in your other thread, but I have only
glanced at the postings in that thread.

> > Google view is snippet (for me anyway).
> >
> > The topic is currently under discussion in another thread.

Incidentally, a really interesting part of Safire's article
to me is the phrase "From a couple of centuries".  It's a
pleasure to see someone saying "couple of" and not just
"couple", which the phrase seems to have degenerated into to
a significant extent.
Alan Jones - 13 Jun 2008 14:25 GMT
[....]
... a really interesting part of Safire's article
> to me is the phrase "From a couple of centuries".  It's a
> pleasure to see someone saying "couple of" and not just
> "couple", which the phrase seems to have degenerated into to
> a significant extent.

No degeneration in BrE, even to the tiniest extent.

Alan Jones
Woody Wordpecker - 13 Jun 2008 14:53 GMT
> [....]
> ... a really interesting part of Safire's article
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> No degeneration in BrE, even to the tiniest extent.

But do you mean that the unadorned "couple" is normal for
British English so is not considered degenerate, or do you
mean the phrase "couple of" has not degenerated?

> Alan Jones
Alan Jones - 13 Jun 2008 16:08 GMT
>> [....]
>> ... a really interesting part of Safire's article
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> British English so is not considered degenerate, or do you
> mean the phrase "couple of" has not degenerated?

The latter. It's odd that "off of" works the other way: the "of" is almost
always omitted in BrE, but (judging by internet material) very commonly used
in everyday AmE. "Off of" is uneducated BrE, "couple" without "of" is just
strange.

Alan Jones
Woody Wordpecker - 13 Jun 2008 17:00 GMT
> >> [....]
> >> ... a really interesting part of Safire's article
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> in everyday AmE. "Off of" is uneducated BrE, "couple" without "of" is just
> strange.

I think I learned "off of" first, but changed to just "off"
when my teachers told me to.  

I'll probably still say "offa" when speaking casually.

Like, "I took a coupla books offa the toppa the pile a new
ones".

(Audio at
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/speech_examples/coupla.wav
)

Sometimes an extra syllable makes a thing easier to say.
When I omit the "a" from "offa", the resulting gap makes the
sentence a little less pleasant to speak.  I feel almost
like I'm gasping for breath.

(Let's hear it for "like" as a conjunction: "Hip hip ... ".)
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Southern California  | squizza da coconut
USofA                |

Jonathan Morton - 14 Jun 2008 09:11 GMT
> The latter. It's odd that "off of" works the other way: the "of" is almost
> always omitted in BrE, but (judging by internet material) very commonly
> used in everyday AmE. "Off of" is uneducated BrE, "couple" without "of" is
> just strange.

I'd go further and say it would be considered degenerate - but as Alan says,
it is virtually unknown here.

Incidentally, what is the original lyric in the (?Frankie Valli?) song
"Can't take my eyes off [of] you"?

Regards

Jonathan
R H Draney - 14 Jun 2008 18:48 GMT
Jonathan Morton filted:

>Incidentally, what is the original lyric in the (?Frankie Valli?) song
>"Can't take my eyes off [of] you"?

The title omits "of", but that leaves us a syllable short...American singers
correct this by including "of" when singing; British singers generally sing the
word "Off" as two beats...Filipino singers (one of them, anyway) sing "can't
take my eyes over you":

 http://www.ting33.com/playsong/32310.htm

....r

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Woody Wordpecker - 13 Jun 2008 14:50 GMT
> > > Does anyone have access to the book  "In Love with Norma Loquendi" by
> > > William Safire?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> legitimate under the concept of fair use.  Does anyone
> disagree?

I guess I should have also mentioned that the copyright page
has acknowledgment "to _The New York Times_ for permission
to reprint 75 'On Language' columns by William Safire from
October 15, 1989, through April 28, 1991.  Copyright © 1989,
1990, 1991 by the New York Times Company. Reprinted by
permission".

Incidentally, I make it a practice to note on an end page of
a book the date when I've finished reading it.  This book
has the note "Read May '96"*.  

That's a good case in point for the ambiguity of the
spelling "read".  Was I saying I redd the book in May '96,
or was I reminding myself to reed it in May '96?  If I were
making the note as I sometimes like to spell today, I would
have written "Redd May '96".

* (In a book that I may read--pronounced "reed"--every
couple of years, like Agatha Christie's, James Herriot's, or
P G Wodehouse's books, there can be a succession of such
notes.)
Woody Wordpecker - 13 Jun 2008 15:00 GMT
> * (In a book that I may read--pronounced "reed"--every
> couple of years, like Agatha Christie's, James Herriot's, or
> P G Wodehouse's books, there can be a succession of such
> notes.)  

That paragraph was okay until I edited it to insert the word
"may".  Then the pronunciation of "read" became unambiguous
and the pronunciation explanation was unnecessary.
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Southern California  | mistake when you make it again."
USofA                |                    -- Author unknown

R J Valentine - 13 Jun 2008 17:03 GMT
...
} That paragraph was okay until I edited it to insert the word
} "may".  Then the pronunciation of "read" became unambiguous
} and the pronunciation explanation was unnecessary.

But can you say "edited it" three times fast?

ObAUE: Was your last "was" necessary?

Signature

rjv

Woody Wordpecker - 13 Jun 2008 18:37 GMT
> ...
> } That paragraph was okay until I edited it to insert the word
> } "may".  Then the pronunciation of "read" became unambiguous
> } and the pronunciation explanation was unnecessary.
>
> But can you say "edited it" three times fast?

Piece a cake.  But when I say it, it's ['Ed@ d@ ,dIt]
(EDDA duh Dit).  (Audio at
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/speech_examples/eddadadit.wav
.) It's about the same as saying the letter "B" in Morse:
"Dahdiddadit".

> ObAUE: Was your last "was" necessary?

Not necessary, but desirable.  Repetition sometimes makes
for more immediate understanding.  It took me several
milliseconds to realize that the sentence still made sense
with the elimination of "was".

There's room for thought about whether there's a useful
difference of connotation between "became" and "was", but I
don't think it applies here.  (Did I want to distinguish the
arrival of the pronunciation at a point and the resulting
state of the explanation?  Probably not.  I probably used
"was" because repetition, though often good, is sometimes
better softened.)
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Bob Cunningham       | I've been young and I've been old; young is better.
Southern California  |        -- Woody Wordpecker
US and A             |        (Paraphrasing Sophie Tucker)

Skitt - 13 Jun 2008 18:59 GMT
> R J Valentine said:
>> Woody Wordpecker wrote: ...

>>} That paragraph was okay until I edited it to insert the word
>>} "may".  Then the pronunciation of "read" became unambiguous
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> .) It's about the same as saying the letter "B" in Morse:
> "Dahdiddadit".

But a "B" in Morse is "Dahditditdit".

I recall that from 1948 -- my Boy Scout days.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Nick Spalding - 13 Jun 2008 20:56 GMT
Skitt wrote, in <wLudncK_KJzpKM_VnZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@comcast.com>
on Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:59:00 -0700:

> > R J Valentine said:
> >> Woody Wordpecker wrote: ...
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> I recall that from 1948 -- my Boy Scout days.

Right: "Dahdiddadit" is "C".
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Skitt - 13 Jun 2008 21:16 GMT
>>> R J Valentine said:

>>>> But can you say "edited it" three times fast?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Right: "Dahdiddadit" is "C".

That's right.  I still remember most of the Latvian words used to memorize
the code.  You guessed it -- I was a member of the Latvian Boy Scouts (in
Germany).
Signature

Skitt
Still posting after all these years ...

Woody Wordpecker - 13 Jun 2008 21:39 GMT
> Skitt wrote, in <wLudncK_KJzpKM_VnZ2dnUVZ_qXinZ2d@comcast.com>
>  on Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:59:00 -0700:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Right: "Dahdiddadit" is "C".

No, "C" is "Dahdidahdit".  "B" the way I say it is
"Dah did a dit", which I spelled "Dahdiddadit".

Four years merchant-marine radio operator, code speed 30
words per minute: I know what a "B" is in Morse, thank you.
Skitt - 13 Jun 2008 22:07 GMT
> Nick Spalding said:
>>>> R J Valentine said:

>>>>> But can you say "edited it" three times fast?
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Four years merchant-marine radio operator, code speed 30
> words per minute: I know what a "B" is in Morse, thank you.

Well, yeah, B is _... and C is -.-.
It's just the way you spell or say it that is, let's say, unusual (to me).
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Woody Wordpecker - 14 Jun 2008 00:34 GMT
> > Nick Spalding said:
> >>>> R J Valentine said:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Well, yeah, B is _... and C is -.-.
> It's just the way you spell or say it that is, let's say, unusual (to me).

If you think about, isn't [dA:dId@dIt] a whole lot easier to
say than "dah dit dit dit"?  And isn't [dId@d@dIt] a lot
easier than "dit dit dit dit"?  Then there's "5",
[dId@dId@dIt] instead of "dit dit dit dit dit".

I was going to suggest that you ask any experienced radio
operator, but I now realize that there may not be many
Morse-code operators left.  Maybe everything these days is
voice or high-speed digital-file transmission and all of the
old code operators are long gone.

I seem to remember hearing something like you don't even
have to know the code to get an amateur-radio license
anymore.  Even when you had to know it a few years ago, they
had it slowed down to a ridiculously slow speed.  When I got
my ham ticket in 1940, the required speed was thirteen words
per minute, which was awfully slow, but not ridiculously
slow.

Yeah, now I've Googled, there's a Web page
( http://preview.tinyurl.com/42z94f *) with the heading

   FCC drops Morse code requirement for amateur radio
   license

At another, obviously older, Web site, I see a mention of
five words per minute for a ham license.

* ObRJV:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/17/fcc-drops-morse-code-requirement-for-amateur-
radio-license/

Skitt - 14 Jun 2008 01:02 GMT
> "Skitt" said:
>>> Nick Spalding said:
>>>>>> R J Valentine said:

>>>>>>> But can you say "edited it" three times fast?
>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> voice or high-speed digital-file transmission and all of the
> old code operators are long gone.

I was not aware that Morse code was actually spoken.  I mean, if spoken
words could be transmitted, why use code?  Anyway, that's now well in the
past.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)
-.-. .... . . .-. ...

Woody Wordpecker - 14 Jun 2008 02:05 GMT
> > "Skitt" said:
> >>> Nick Spalding said:
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> I was not aware that Morse code was actually spoken.  

Of course it wasn't spoken to transmit messages.  The main
place spoken Morse would be found would be in the mind of a
student operator, who would be mentally voicing the sounds
to practice "sending" when away from a key.  I did a lot of
that when I was in high school.

Another place would be in a discussion of someone's "fist".
"Fist" referred to the quality of an operator's sending
technique.  One person might say to another that a third
person sent the distress signal incorrectly, sending
"didadidow dowdowdidadit" instead of the correct
"didadidowdowdowdidadit".  (I actually heard an operator
sending it that wrong way, and I told one of the other
operators on my ship about it that way.)

And hams were not above conversing briefly in Morse to
preserve privacy and maybe irritate their dates.

I've thought some more about conversational Morse, and I
realize that we were more likely to say "diddlydit" instead
of "diddadadit" for "H", and "B" would be more like
"dowdiddledit".  ( ['Didl-idIt] and ['daUdidl-it].  And the
distress signal (erroneously but commonly called "SOS")
would be "diddlydowdowdowdiddlit".

Yes, I once heard this conversation at a gathering of hams:

   He: Dow diddled it.
   She: Who diddled it?
   He: Dow.

Just for the hell of it, I've recorded myself voicing
moderately fast Morse code spelling my name.  I doubt that
anyone will be interested, but anyone who is can hear it at
http://preview.tinyurl.com/3w89ez .  I find it fun to listen
to; it brings back sorta pleasant memories.

ObRJV:
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/speech_examples/bc_in_Morse.wav
Jonathan Morton - 14 Jun 2008 09:23 GMT
<snip interesting stuff on Morse>

> And the distress signal (erroneously but commonly called "SOS")...

Asking as a layman, Bob, why "erroneously"? Since "S" is "..." and "O" is
"---" it's a fair description.

And yes, I do know that "SOS" does not stand for anything in this context.

Regards

Jonathan
Woody Wordpecker - 14 Jun 2008 10:08 GMT
> <snip interesting stuff on Morse>
>
> > And the distress signal (erroneously but commonly called "SOS")...
>
> Asking as a layman, Bob, why "erroneously"? Since "S" is "..." and "O" is
> "---" it's a fair description.

"SOS" in Morse would be "... ___ ...".  The distress signal
was "...___..." (no spaces).  

This isn't a trivial point.  Student radio operators are
cautioned to not think of the distress signal being "SOS"
because it might lead them to send it that way.

> And yes, I do know that "SOS" does not stand for anything in this context.

Just as the distress signal does not stand for "SOS".

> Jonathan
Woody Wordpecker - 14 Jun 2008 10:28 GMT
> > <snip interesting stuff on Morse>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> "SOS" in Morse would be "... ___ ...".  The distress signal
> was "...___..." (no spaces).  

I now notice that underscores don't make good Morse dashes
because they connect up.  I would have done better to write

   "SOS" in Morse would be "... --- ...".  The
   distress signal was "...---..." (no spaces).

> This isn't a trivial point.  Student radio operators are
> cautioned to not think of the distress signal being "SOS"
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Just as the distress signal does not stand for "SOS".

By the way, I said "distress signal was" advisedly, because
"...---..." is officially no longer the International
Distress Signal.  That is discussed at the alt.usage.english
Web site at http://alt-usage-english.org/sos.html .

And I maybe should have used past tense in referring to
"student radio operators".  Is there any such thing anymore
as a student learning Morse code?
Jonathan Morton - 14 Jun 2008 10:51 GMT
> By the way, I said "distress signal was" advisedly, because
> "...---..." is officially no longer the International
> Distress Signal.  That is discussed at the alt.usage.english
> Web site at http://alt-usage-english.org/sos.html .

Incidentally, Bob, what are you doing up this early? Or is it late?

Jonathan
Woody Wordpecker - 14 Jun 2008 11:11 GMT
> > By the way, I said "distress signal was" advisedly, because
> > "...---..." is officially no longer the International
> > Distress Signal.  That is discussed at the alt.usage.english
> > Web site at http://alt-usage-english.org/sos.html .
>
> Incidentally, Bob, what are you doing up this early? Or is it late?

I often get up in the middle of the night and read or fiddle
with the computer for a while, then go back to bed.

Years ago I read that someone had decided you get the best
rest in the first couple of hours you're asleep, so
interrupting your sleep for a while during the night gives
you two of those more effective intervals and you get about
as much rest as if you had slept straight through.

I don't know whether that's true or not.  I still take a nap
most afternoons.  Being retired, I can sleep any time I want
to.
Jonathan Morton - 14 Jun 2008 10:48 GMT
> "SOS" in Morse would be "... ___ ...".  The distress signal
> was "...___..." (no spaces).
>
> This isn't a trivial point.  Student radio operators are
> cautioned to not think of the distress signal being "SOS"
> because it might lead them to send it that way.

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation.

Regards

Jonathan
The Grammer Genious - 14 Jun 2008 13:58 GMT
> Jonathan Morton said:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Just as the distress signal does not stand for "SOS".

So, if an ignorant Morse operator in grave danger sent a repeated SOS, with
spaces between the letters and word spaces between the SOSs, all those
receiving it would think, "Oh, he's putting spaces between the letters.
That's not the distress signal. So I'll just ignore him."

Or maybe, "I wonder what 'Sos' means? Is that somebody's name?"

Or maybe, "I'm not sending that guy any help until he learns proper Morse
procedure."

I don't think so.

Hence, practically speaking, the distress signal is (or was) SOS.
Woody Wordpecker - 14 Jun 2008 15:25 GMT
> [...]

> Hence, practically speaking, the distress signal is (or was) SOS.

False.
Cece - 14 Jun 2008 20:27 GMT
> > > "Skitt" said:
> > >>> Nick Spalding said:
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've never managed any Morse at all, as the only Morse I've ever heard
was done by a couple of Boy Scouts just beginning to learn it.  Dots
and dashes sounded just alike!  I've heard since that it's not the
sound one listens for, but the silence between.  Is that right?

However, being very interested in codes at the time, I did manage to
remember some of the dot-and-dash patterns used in Morse, and I read
somewhere that when one voiced them, a dash was "dah" and a dot was
either "dih" or "dit" -- "dit" used only for the final symbol for a
letter.  Di-di-dit, dah-dah-dah, di-di-dit.  Yes?  No?
Woody Wordpecker - 15 Jun 2008 01:50 GMT
[...]

> I've never managed any Morse at all, as the only Morse I've ever heard
> was done by a couple of Boy Scouts just beginning to learn it.  Dots
> and dashes sounded just alike!  I've heard since that it's not the
> sound one listens for, but the silence between.  Is that right?

You pay attention to the silence because the length of the
silence determines whether it's separating letters or words.
But you can't of course pay attention to the silence to the
exclusion of paying attention to the dots and dashes.

In American Morse, which used to be used by railroads,
there's a third silence to pay attention to.  The dots and
dashes within a letter can be separated by a short silence.

For example, "C" in  American Morse is ".. .", "r" is
". ..", "e" is ".", "t" is "-" and "o" is ". .", so the word
"correct" in American Morse is
".. .  . .  . ..  . ..  .  .. .  -", while in International
Morse it's
"-.-. --- .-. .-. . -.-. -".

You can see a complete list of American Morse symbols in
_Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary_ under "Morse
Code".  It has both the American and International codes.
The ninth, tenth, and eleventh editions have only the
International.  (I don't have the eighth.)

Interesting to see, _Webster's Third New International
Dictionary_ in the hard copy has both the American and
International codes, while they note that the American is
"now largely out of use", but its CD version, which they
call _Merriam-Webster's Unabridged Dictionary_ has only the
International.

> However, being very interested in codes at the time, I did manage to
> remember some of the dot-and-dash patterns used in Morse, and I read
> somewhere that when one voiced them, a dash was "dah" and a dot was
> either "dih" or "dit" -- "dit" used only for the final symbol for a
> letter.  Di-di-dit, dah-dah-dah, di-di-dit.  Yes?  No?

That's a step in the right direction, but there's no right
and wrong way for vocalizing Morse.  Each of us is free to
do it anyway we want to.  People I've known who were
proficient in code have liked to vocalize to make the
symbols sound like a real transmission.  To do that you need
to choose vocalizations that can be pronounced rapidly.

Slow is "dahditditdit".
A little faster is your "dahdididit".
A little faster yet is "dahdid@dit".
Very fast is "dahdidd@l@t",

where "@" is the schwa, the sound of the "o" in "bacon".

Try vocalizing "H" as "ditditditdit", then "didididit", and
then "didd@l@dit", saying them as fast as you can.  You
should find "didd@l@dit" much easier and faster to say, and
that's the way proficient code users I've known and I would
be likely to vocalize it.
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 15 Jun 2008 21:47 GMT
<interesting Morse stuff snipped>

Staring the "Going forward" thread Leslie Danks posted a link to
a page which linked to this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7444184.stm

Save our SOS
     By Finlo Rohrer
   BBC News Magazine
   
   It's 100 years since SOS came into force across the world as
   the standard signal for ships in distress. But times have
   changed in the rescue business.
   
   Before the advent of radio if your ship got into trouble on
   some far off stretch of roiling sea, that trouble was not
   easy to get out of.
   
   Communication off the ship could only be achieved with other
   ships within distance, using either lights, flags or flares.
   
   If you were in dense fog or in a howling gale far out at
   sea, and you started taking on water, the first
   communication most sailors would make was heaven-wards.
   ....

Possible codes:

   THE CONTENDERS
   Marconi: CQD
   Italians: SSSDDD
   Germans: SOE/SOS
   ....

The readers comments on the article make the point about the
distress signal ("SOS") being continuous rather than three
letters.

The final comment is:

   My mobile phone can issue an SOS signal in morse code via
   the built in camera light. I've always found this strangely
   comforting, although have not had to use it yet in the
   distinctly urban environment of West Yorkshire.
   Rich, Shipley

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 15 Jun 2008 23:54 GMT
>Staring the "Going forward"

Starting...

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Glenn Knickerbocker - 17 Jun 2008 00:46 GMT
> You pay attention to the silence because the length of the
> silence determines whether it's separating letters or words.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> there's a third silence to pay attention to.  The dots and
> dashes within a letter can be separated by a short silence.

You've left out the most important silence of all:  The silence that
separates consecutive dots and dashes.  Without that silence, each letter
would just be one big BLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
And that silence is why the vocalizations are conventionally written with
"dit" for each dot.  You may be able to say "diddle a dit" faster than
"dit-dit-dit-dit," and it may be a perfectly good mnemonic, but that
doesn't make it an accurate representation of four short sounds separated
by silences of equal length.

¬R
Woody Wordpecker - 17 Jun 2008 20:04 GMT
> > You pay attention to the silence because the length of the
> > silence determines whether it's separating letters or words.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> You've left out the most important silence of all:  The silence that
> separates consecutive dots and dashes.  

And so obviously necessary that it needn't be mentioned.  If
you were telling a student how to spell "beet", would you
tell him to be sure to put a space between the two "e"s and
not run them together to make one long "e"?  I wouldn't.  If
they were stupid enough to need to be told that, I would
give up on trying to tell them anything.

> Without that silence, each letter
> would just be one big BLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> doesn't make it an accurate representation of four short sounds separated
> by silences of equal length.

Not true.  ['dId@l@dit] sounds very much like an "H" keyed
by a proficient radiotelegrapher.  "ditditditdit" sounds
like a boy scout who is trying to send an "H" but can't do
it with any confidence yet.  ['dId@l@dit] is not just a
mnemonic.  It's a good approximation to how a real signal
sounds when it's sent faster than twenty words per minute.

Just to establish who's saying what, are you proficient with
Morse code, and how fast can you send and receive?  If
you're a competent, reasonably fast user of Morse code, I'll
read what else you may have to say.  If not, I'm not
interested.

Again, to hear Morse code vocalized to make it sound like a
real transmission, listen to
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/speech_examples/bc_in_Morse.wav
Note, by the way, that "B" is [daUdId@l@t].  

(Some people like to say [daU] and others like to say [da:].
It's only a matter of personal preference.)

The reason a proficient operator will use [da:dId@l@t]
instead of [da:dItdItdIt] is that he can say it much faster.
And the reason he will say [da:dId@l@t] instead of
[da:dIdIdIt] is that he can say it usefully faster.
Glenn Knickerbocker - 18 Jun 2008 06:19 GMT
>Not true.  ['dId@l@dit] sounds very much like an "H" keyed
>by a proficient radiotelegrapher.

Very much like, not exactly like.

>"ditditditdit" sounds
>like a boy scout who is trying to send an "H" but can't do
>it with any confidence yet.

Maybe when you say it.  Maybe not when John Moschitta says it.

¬R                 Plus meditandum, minus misculandum.
(Marty Shapiro, deftly translated by Sean Fitzpatrick)
Richard Maurer - 18 Jun 2008 07:33 GMT
Morse tapping on a wall

Suppose you are a prisoner for a day and want to tap a message
to your friend that you believe is on the other side of
the 12 inch thick concrete wall.  How do you encode your message?
You can only make dits and not dahs.  Is there a standard method,
such as adding a tap at the end of each letter?
 S -- tap tap tap tap
 O -- tap   tap   tap   tap

--                       ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer              To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California       of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[subthread of Morse vocalization]
Woody Wordpecker - 18 Jun 2008 17:38 GMT
> Morse tapping on a wall
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>   S -- tap tap tap tap
>   O -- tap   tap   tap   tap

The sounder used for railroad telegraphy had no tone, just
clicketyclacks.  A railroad telegrapher should be able to
answer your question, if any of them are still alive.

Smatter a fact, we practiced telegraphy with American Morse
and a sounder during one of my sea trips when I had an
experienced railroad telegrapher as second radio operator,
who had brought a sounder along to keep in shape for his
railroad job.  I don't remember having much trouble
distinguishing dashes and dots, but I don't remember why.

If I were the pounder on the wall, I would use heavier blows
for dashes and lighter for dots.

That's sorta what a couple of hams I knew probably did when
they used to converse covertly while riding in a car with
others, making Morse characters by tapping each other's
shoulders; pressed a little harder for a dash, that is.

Come to think of it, though, the telegraph sounder has to
return after it comes down, and there's no reason it has to
do it silently.  I wonder if the operator heard both the
beginning and end of a dash or dot, with the two having
different sounds.  Maybe, maybe not.

Your pounder on the wall could use something like that
approach, with a lighter tap following each dash and dot.
Steve Hayes - 19 Jun 2008 09:38 GMT
>Morse tapping on a wall
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>  S -- tap tap tap tap
>  O -- tap   tap   tap   tap

Separate the dashes by longer intervals

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Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Joe Fineman - 20 Jun 2008 04:55 GMT
> Morse tapping on a wall
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> make dits and not dahs.  Is there a standard method, such as adding
> a tap at the end of each letter?

According to Koestler's _Darkness at Noon_, the standard for that
situation, at least in Europe, was the so-called quadratic alphabet,
in which each letter was represented by a pair of series of taps, from
1 to 5.  That gave 25 combinations, so a letter had to be left out --
say

  1  2  3  4  5

1  A  B  C  D  E
2  F  G  H  I  J
3  K  L  M  N  O
4  P  R  S  T  U
5  V  W  X  Y  Z

-- so that 2-4 would mean I.  (I suppose they must have gone up to 6×6
for the Russian alphabet.)
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---  Joe Fineman    joe_f@verizon.net

||:  It may be hard to tell whether a man is a psychopath or  :||
||:  acting on legal advice.                                  :||
tony cooper - 20 Jun 2008 05:31 GMT
>> Morse tapping on a wall
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>-- so that 2-4 would mean I.  (I suppose they must have gone up to 6×6
>for the Russian alphabet.)

I wonder if Sen Larry Craig was tapping out  2-3 1-5 3-2 3-2 3-5
(pause) 4-3 1-1 2-4 3-2 3-5 4-2.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Richard Yates - 20 Jun 2008 14:36 GMT
>>According to Koestler's _Darkness at Noon_, the standard for that
>>situation, at least in Europe, was the so-called quadratic alphabet,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I wonder if Sen Larry Craig was tapping out  2-3 1-5 3-2 3-2 3-5
> (pause) 4-3 1-1 2-4 3-2 3-5 4-2. Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

32,35,32
Oleg Lego - 20 Jun 2008 16:14 GMT
>>>According to Koestler's _Darkness at Noon_, the standard for that
>>>situation, at least in Europe, was the so-called quadratic alphabet,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>32,35,32

11,35,32

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roses are #FF0000
violets are #0000FF
all my base
are belong to you

Richard Maurer - 28 Jun 2008 22:13 GMT
Richard Maurer wrote:
   Suppose you are a prisoner for a day and want to tap
   a message to your friend that you believe is on the
   other side of the 12 inch thick concrete wall.

   According to Koestler's _Darkness at Noon_, the standard
   for that situation, at least in Europe, was the so-called
   quadratic alphabet, in which each letter was represented by
   a pair of series of taps, from 1 to 5.  That gave
   25 combinations, so a letter had to be left out --

So why not the quintic alphabet, or the sexy alphabet for the
6x6 Russian version.  Where was it the quadratic alphabet?
Perhaps the originating miners only thought they needed
16 codes?

--                       ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer              To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California       of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rambler III - 28 Jun 2008 23:24 GMT
> Richard Maurer wrote:
>    Suppose you are a prisoner for a day and want to tap
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>    a pair of series of taps, from 1 to 5.  That gave
>    25 combinations, so a letter had to be left out --

What if you're a Swede [29]. a Russian [33], a Bulgarian [30], a
Spaniard [29], and how do you indicate those diacritics?
Roland Hutchinson - 28 Jun 2008 23:54 GMT
> Richard Maurer wrote:
>     Suppose you are a prisoner for a day and want to tap
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Perhaps the originating miners only thought they needed
> 16 codes?

Quadratic because of the square shape of the n x n grid, one supposes.

Signature

Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.

Richard Maurer - 29 Jun 2008 00:36 GMT
Richard Maurer wrote:
   So why not the quintic alphabet, or the sexy alphabet for the
   6x6 Russian version.  Where was it the quadratic alphabet?
   Perhaps the originating miners only thought they needed
   16 codes?

   Quadratic because of the square shape of the n x n grid,
   one supposes.

OK, that explanation is 5 by 5 with me, and takes care of the
quadratic equation.

--                       ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer              To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California       of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(Official weather forecast for today: Patchy Smoke)
Evan Kirshenbaum - 29 Jun 2008 20:08 GMT
> According to Koestler's _Darkness at Noon_, the standard for that
> situation, at least in Europe, was the so-called quadratic alphabet,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> 4  P  R  S  T  U
> 5  V  W  X  Y  Z

According to various sources in Google Books, the tap code used by
American POWs in Vietnam merged K in with C:

    1  2  3  4  5

 1  A  B C/K D  E
 2  F  G  H  I  J
 3  L  M  N  O  P
 4  Q  R  S  T  U
 5  V  W  X  Y  Z

You memorized "AFLQV" and walked down that on the first set of taps to
get the reference point for the second.

> -- so that 2-4 would mean I.  (I suppose they must have gone up to
> 6×6 for the Russian alphabet.)

Apparently it wasn't square.  In the the January, 1914 _Outlook_,
George Kennan's "The World of a Single Cell" tells the story of a
prisoner who learns to use the "knock alphabet" from a prisoner in a
neighboring cell.  (Kennan apparently published descriptions of this
code by 1887.)  After realizing that the new guy doesn't understand
it, the neighbor switches to a "1=A, 2=B" code (with a footnote that
"For the sake of clearness I have substituted the English for the
Russian alphabet").  Once he's satisfied that the new guy knows,

   He then knocked out, slowly and carefully, "Learn better way;
   listen!"

   In the stillness of the prison I could hear his actions almost as
   perfectly as I could have seen them if the wall had been
   transparent.  WIth some hard object in his hand he gave the wall
   one emphatic rap, and then scratched a long horizontal line across
   it as high up as he could reach.  This was followed by two raps
   and the scratching of a second line about a foot below the first.
   One after another, he drew in this way seven horizontal lines, six
   or eight feet long and twelve or fourteen inches apart, numbering
   them from one to seven by means of raps.  He then scratched six
   perpendicular lines across the first series giving to each its
   number, from left to right, in the same way.  The whole diagram,
   when finished, presented itself to my imagination as a huge
   vertical checkerboard, with numbered rows and columns.  I had
   never before had occasion to see with my ears, but I found it
   quite possible to do so, and I have no doubt that by making proper
   use of a scratcher and the knock alphabet a mathematician might
   give a lesson in plane geometry through a ten-inch wall.

   As soon as my instructor completed his invisible but audible
   checkerboard he rapped out the words: "Put alphabet in squares."
   
   This I succeeded in doing by scratching the diagram on the floor
   with a nail which I found driven into the woodwork behind the
   door.  The man in the other cell then began knocking again, but
   instead of designating a letter by its serial number in the
   alphabet, he located it on the checkerboard by giving the number
   of the row and the number of the column at whose intersection it
   would be found.

That would seem to indicate either 7x6 (since numbers were given up to
seven for the rows) or 6x5 if "in squares" is taken literally.  The
Russian alphabet would have had 36 letters at that time (four were
dropped in 1918) or perhaps fewer if certain pairs weren't counted as
distinct.  The 1890 _Encyclopædia Britannica_ describes the Russian
alphabet as having 35 letters, so presumably Kennan meant to describe
a 7x5 grid.

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Woody Wordpecker - 18 Jun 2008 17:38 GMT
[...]

> >"ditditditdit" sounds
> >like a boy scout who is trying to send an "H" but can't do
> >it with any confidence yet.
>
> Maybe when you say it.  Maybe not when John Moschitta says it.

Since John Moschitta's shtick is to talk as fast as
possible, I doubt that he would say "ditditditdit" if he
knew about ['dId@l@dit].

Speaking of moschittas, I've read that there have recently
been a couple of cases of West-Nile virus in Los Angeles. We
need to look around our yards and make sure there are no
breeding places for moschittas.
R J Valentine - 15 Jun 2008 21:12 GMT
} If you think about, isn't [dA:dId@dIt] a whole lot easier to
} say than "dah dit dit dit"?  And isn't [dId@d@dIt] a lot
} easier than "dit dit dit dit"?  Then there's "5",
} [dId@dId@dIt] instead of "dit dit dit dit dit".

Sure, but there's been a conventional way to spell it for a long time (as
other posters have already laid it out).  I forget whether I learned it in
my Boy Scout days in the fifties or my Signal Corps days in the sixties,
but there was never any ambiguity about the distress signal:

___
SOS

which was didididahdahdahdididit, not dididit dahdahdah dididit.  Your
spelling threw me off, in that I didn't advert to the "missing" "h",
though I noticed the "a".  When you do one of these ad hoc pronunciation
spellings, it risks some misinterpretation.  I also had never come across
the "dow" spelling or pronunciation, though the recorded sample was clear
enough with it and the diddle's.

ObDrift:  I took a Morse aptitude test, maybe in the Army or maybe later,
where I noticed in the introductory questions that they were giving the
answers afterwards, but that they were the wrong answers as often as not,
so I resisted the temptation to wait for the answers and copy them down
and ended up doing surprisingly well.

} I was going to suggest that you ask any experienced radio
} operator, but I now realize that there may not be many
} Morse-code operators left.  Maybe everything these days is
} voice or high-speed digital-file transmission and all of the
} old code operators are long gone.
}  
} I seem to remember hearing something like you don't even
} have to know the code to get an amateur-radio license
} anymore.  Even when you had to know it a few years ago, they
} had it slowed down to a ridiculously slow speed.  When I got
} my ham ticket in 1940, the required speed was thirteen words
} per minute, which was awfully slow, but not ridiculously
} slow.
}
} Yeah, now I've Googled, there's a Web page
} ( http://preview.tinyurl.com/42z94f *) with the heading
}
}     FCC drops Morse code requirement for amateur radio
}     license
}
} At another, obviously older, Web site, I see a mention of
} five words per minute for a ham license.

I'm talking out my hat here, but I seem to recall that my son recently got
an amateur extra license (the step above the old general 13WPM license)
after his previous novice license expired and that he had to pass a code
test to do so, though there wasn't a code test for the lower levels.  So
all your reported statements could still be true at one level or another.

} * ObRJV:
} http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/17/fcc-drops-morse-code-requirement-for-amateur-
radio-license/


Thanks.

Signature

rjv

Woody Wordpecker - 15 Jun 2008 23:09 GMT
> } If you think about, isn't [dA:dId@dIt] a whole lot easier to
> } say than "dah dit dit dit"?  And isn't [dId@d@dIt] a lot
> } easier than "dit dit dit dit"?  Then there's "5",
> } [dId@dId@dIt] instead of "dit dit dit dit dit".
>
> Sure, but there's been a conventional way to spell it for a long time

"Conventional"?  Whose convention?  Whose authority am I
supposed to bend before to do something differently that I
learned to do 70 years ago?

If I were wondering how to vocalize Morse code, I wouldn't
ask a boy scout.  I would ask an experienced
radiotelegrapher.

[...]

> ___
> SOS

I'm glad you mentioned the overbar.  That's covered in the
article on "SOS" in Mark Israel's alt.usage.english FAQ. The
thing with the overbar is called a "prosign", if I remember
right, and it's not correct to pronounce it "ess owe ess",
but most people will do so anyway.

[...]

> } Yeah, now I've Googled, there's a Web page
> } ( http://preview.tinyurl.com/42z94f *) with the heading
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> test to do so, though there wasn't a code test for the lower levels.  So
> all your reported statements could still be true at one level or another.

The one quoted above made no exceptions that I remember.  I
don't know what your "recently" means, but the announcement
of dropping the requirement is dated 17 December 2006.

By the way, I timed the vocalization of my name on my Web
site* and calculated the speed.  It's pretty close to 22
words per minute, which isn't as fast as I thought it was.

*
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/speech_examples/bc_in_Morse.wav
R J Valentine - 17 Jun 2008 18:08 GMT
} On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 20:12:19 +0000 (UTC), R J Valentine
} <rj@TheWorld.com> said:
}
}>
}> } If you think about, isn't [dA:dId@dIt] a whole lot easier to
}> } say than "dah dit dit dit"?  And isn't [dId@d@dIt] a lot
}> } easier than "dit dit dit dit"?  Then there's "5",
}> } [dId@dId@dIt] instead of "dit dit dit dit dit".
}>
}> Sure, but there's been a conventional way to spell it for a long time
}
} "Conventional"?  Whose convention?  Whose authority am I
} supposed to bend before to do something differently that I
} learned to do 70 years ago?

My authority isn't enough?  

Your own authority in seeing the confusion caused by using an "a" for a
dit ought to be enough for a body independent enough to rebel against the
"American" tendency to insert punctuation into quoted material.

It's simple enough.  Spell dits as "di" except if it's the last bit in a
letter or letter-like unit, and spell dahs (= SparkE "daws") as "dah".  
The casual reader can then pick out the i's and a's and pronounce them
unambiguously (which means that it ill behooves a Briton, performer,
side-show barker, or teacher of English to explode a final "dit").

} If I were wondering how to vocalize Morse code, I wouldn't
} ask a boy scout.  I would ask an experienced
} radiotelegrapher.

My point isn't the vocalization, it's the spelling.  Your recording of
your name is clear enough.  Your spelling of the Morse code for "B" (or
was it "C"?) upthread caused no small confusion, even for this former boy
scout and former Signal Corps technician and former commercially FCC-
licensed radio operator.  I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, you
know.

} [...]
}
}> ___
}> SOS
}
} I'm glad you mentioned the overbar.  That's covered in the
} article on "SOS" in Mark Israel's alt.usage.english FAQ. The
} thing with the overbar is called a "prosign", if I remember
} right, and it's not correct to pronounce it "ess owe ess",
} but most people will do so anyway.

It's correct enough to call it "an SOS" and can probably be so looked up
in at least thirteen of your dictionaries.  I toss in the odd overbar to
be as correct as possible from time to time within the constraints of
newsgroup pedantry.

} [...]
}
}> } Yeah, now I've Googled, there's a Web page
}> } ( http://preview.tinyurl.com/42z94f *) with the heading
}> }
}> }     FCC drops Morse code requirement for amateur radio
}> }     license
}> }
}> } At another, obviously older, Web site, I see a mention of
}> } five words per minute for a ham license.
}>
}> I'm talking out my hat here, but I seem to recall that my son recently got
}> an amateur extra license (the step above the old general 13WPM license)
}> after his previous novice license expired and that he had to pass a code
}> test to do so, though there wasn't a code test for the lower levels.  So
}> all your reported statements could still be true at one level or another.
}
} The one quoted above made no exceptions that I remember.  I
} don't know what your "recently" means, but the announcement
} of dropping the requirement is dated 17 December 2006.

Quite so.  My "recently" turns out to have effectively meant August of
2006.  I'm told there was an International Telecommunication Union
conference in 2003 that resulted in dropping the requirement on or about
your date.  You are correct, as usual, King Friday.

} By the way, I timed the vocalization of my name on my Web
} site* and calculated the speed.  It's pretty close to 22
} words per minute, which isn't as fast as I thought it was.
}
} *
} http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/speech_examples/bc_in_Morse.wav

But still faster than some might think an old guy could do anything.

*I'm" impressed.

Signature

rjv

Woody Wordpecker - 17 Jun 2008 20:16 GMT
> } On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 20:12:19 +0000 (UTC), R J Valentine
> } <rj@TheWorld.com> said:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> My authority isn't enough?  

Heavens, no!  

[...]

> But still faster than some might think an old guy could do anything.

That's Valentine, rude as ever.  Let me be rude in return:
Drop dead, RJ.
R J Valentine - 18 Jun 2008 05:38 GMT
} On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:08:58 +0000 (UTC), R J Valentine
} <rj@TheWorld.com> said:
...
}> But still faster than some might think an old guy could do anything.
}
} That's Valentine, rude as ever.  

Ah, good.  Back to English usage.  But is the quoted sentence actually
rude?  Or does the observation about it merely refer to a consistency over
the last decade or two in the level of rudeness, if any?

It does remind me of the time back in November of 1960 that I was taking a
tour of the Goethe House in Frankfurt (a.M.), where the guide was telling
my Uncle Fred and me about some of the accomplishments of the former
owner.  My Uncle Fred said, "He was quite a guy!" at which the old guide
got all esteamed and announced, "Goethe was no 'guy'."

} Let me be rude in return: Drop dead, RJ.

I'm not even sure that that's rude, what with the inevitability of it and
all.  But I certainly forgive you for whatever offence you might have
intended.

Signature

rjv
Rude as ever.
Proud owner of "Dr. Aman's Insult Calendar" (c) 1973, 1974, 1981 by him.

Chuck Riggs - 18 Jun 2008 15:40 GMT
>} On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:08:58 +0000 (UTC), R J Valentine
>} <rj@TheWorld.com> said:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>all.  But I certainly forgive you for whatever offence you might have
>intended.

Not far from Frankfurt am Main is the US army military complex in
Hanau. Information on it can be found at
http://www.hanau.army.mil/HanauWeb/01_index/index.asp I attended the
military sponsored junior high school there for two years in the late
50s, when my father was on active duty.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Woody Wordpecker - 18 Jun 2008 22:44 GMT
Note: I've changed the order from the source posting to put
the more significant material first.

> Not far from Frankfurt am Main is the US army military
> complex in Hanau. Information on it can be found at
> http://www.hanau.army.mil/HanauWeb/01_index/index.asp 
> I attended the military sponsored junior high school
> there for two years in the late 50s, when my father was
> on active duty.

Long ago we had an alt.usage.english regular whose father
was in some branch of the military.  He also went with his
parents to where his father was stationed.  He told of his
linguistic experience in North Africa.  There were kids in
his neighborhood with different native tongues--including
Arabic--and they had no lingua franca, so they developed one
of their own.  They got so they could freely converse using
an equitable mixture of words from all of their languages.

I don't remember the regular's name.  For all I know, maybe
he's still amongst us.  If so, I hope I've remembered his
story right.

> >...
> >>> But still faster than some might think an old guy could do anything.
> >>
> >> That's Valentine, rude as ever.  

[...]

> >> Let me be rude in return: Drop dead, RJ.
> >
> >I'm not even sure that that's rude, what with the inevitability of it and
> >all.  But I certainly forgive you for whatever offence you might have
> >intended.

There's really something wrong with Valentine's headbone if
he thinks I would want forgiveness from an insufferable
whatever like him.  And incredible as it seems, I think he
may actually not know what's rude and what isn't.  That
would help to explain his rudeness, but it wouldn't make it
acceptable.

If I cared about his apparent ignorance, I might explain to
him that it's unimaginably rude to taunt an old person about
their age, but I don't care how ignorant he is, so I won't.

Signature

Bob Cunningham      | Pidgin for "piano":
Southern Califonria | "Big fella box; you hit him he cry."
USofA               |                 -- Apocryphal?

R J Valentine - 19 Jun 2008 19:08 GMT
} Note: I've changed the order from the source posting to put
} the more significant material first.

("[M]ore significant material" snipped as irrelevant and off-topic, though
on-Subject for the latest change, which is now irelevant.  For those
following along, we're now back to "Dawdle a bit", which follows
"Eddadit".)

}> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 04:38:16 +0000 (UTC), R J Valentine
}> <rj@TheWorld.com> wrote:
}>
}> >
}> >> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:08:58 +0000 (UTC), R J Valentine
}> >> <rj@TheWorld.com> said:
}> >...
}> >>> But still faster than some might think an old guy could do anything.
}> >>
}> >> That's Valentine, rude as ever.  
}
} [...]
}
}> >> Let me be rude in return: Drop dead, RJ.
}> >
}> >I'm not even sure that that's rude, what with the inevitability of it and
}> >all.  But I certainly forgive you for whatever offence you might have
}> >intended.
}
} There's really something wrong with Valentine's headbone if
} he thinks I would want forgiveness from an insufferable
} whatever like him.  And incredible as it seems, I think he
} may actually not know what's rude and what isn't.  That
} would help to explain his rudeness, but it wouldn't make it
} acceptable.
}
} If I cared about his apparent ignorance, I might explain to
} him that it's unimaginably rude to taunt an old person about
} their age, but I don't care how ignorant he is, so I won't.

As a matter of English usage, I challenge the use of the word "taunt".  
The posting immediately preceding the allegedly rude sentence quoted above
contained the statement posted by Bob Cunningham, but later snipped by
him, apparently to obscure the context:

  "Conventional"?  Whose convention?  Whose authority am I
  supposed to bend before to do something differently that I
  learned to do 70 years ago?

The proficiency of Mr. Cunningham with radiotelegraphy has never been an
issue.  He raised the issue of age by asserting that he learned it 70
years ago.  In my follow-up, I allowed for the opinion of some that
certain proficiencies tended to decline with age, but clearly supported
the idea that Mr. Cunningham was in full possession of at least that
proficiency, as he demonstrated in his recording of his vocalization of
the Morse code for his name.  If mentioning age is bad, then it was Mr.  
Cunningham that mentioned it, and I merely commented on his mention.  The
rest of his sentence went to his humility about the speed not being as
high as he had thought, whereupon I opined that it was plenty fast enough
after the 70 years that he brought up.

The point of the subthread is that Mr. Cunningham is proficient enough at
vocalizing Morse code, but that his spelling of the vocalization as an ad
hoc pronunciation spelling falls short, because it introduces confusion
with the a's conventionally used for dashes and the í's conventionally
used for dots in written forms of Morse-code vocalization.  (In short
form, the convention is to use "dah" for the dashes and "di" for the dots"
except for a terminal "di" in a character, which is rendered as "dit".)

He can go into a snit about people taunting him with his advanced age, and
he can snip relevant context, and he can fail to admit his introduction of
confusion with ad hoc pronunciation spelling schemes.  Heck, he could even
stomp on the floor and quit AUE yet again, as it lately seems fashionable
to do when called on a point.  But claiming touchines about his age isn't
his most productive talent.

} --
} Bob Cunningham      | Pidgin for "piano":
} Southern Califonria | "Big fella box; you hit him he cry."
} USofA               |                 -- Apocryphal?

If I wanted to be rude, I'd call Mr. Cunningham a piano.  But far be it
from me to be rude to a guy who tells me to "Drop dead".  I merely
forgive him for any rudeness he imagines himself guilty of (see above),
whether he wants it or not.  He needn't beg my forgiveness for whatever
faults he may find in himself.  I freely give it to him.

Signature

rjv
Gets into National Parks free for life.

Woody Wordpecker - 20 Jun 2008 00:49 GMT
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:08:49 +0000 (UTC), R J Valentine
<rj@TheWorld.com> used an astounding number of words to not
say very much.

Boiled down to the essentials, he

1. revealed that he is so ignorant of common courtesy that
he doesn't know that while it's quite all right for a person
to speak of his infirmity, it's not considered polite for
others to allude to it, especially in a mocking way. Between
friends it might be acceptable badinage, but between
strangers, as Valentine and I are, it's presumptuously rude.

2. tried to implant the impression that I'm touchy about my
age.  I'm not, and the fact that I'm not should be clear
from my having mentioned it repeatedly, matter-of-factly,
and uncomplainingly over the years.

Beyond that, his posting was just another of his snow jobs.
Write voluminously and chase lots of rabbits, so that people
will lose sight of the fact that you don't have a hell of a
lot to say: that seems to be his approach.  

About my age, the main feeling I have is awe, mixed with a
certain amount of puzzlement.  I've drunk more alcohol than
I should have; smoked heavily long ago for about 12 years;
avoided exercise all my life and continue to avoid it; but
I'm still in pretty good shape mentally and physically while
a lot of others my age are either long dead or are
vegetating in the urine stink of nursing homes.

I'm inclined to think it's mostly in the genes.

Signature

Bob Cunningham       | Of my allowed three score and ten,
Southern California  | Those years plus four have made their
USofA                |     sound.
                    | Subtracting makes me say again
                    | I wonder why I'm still around.
                    |           -- Woody Wordpecker, 1996

Nick Spalding - 14 Jun 2008 08:49 GMT
Skitt wrote, in <KsednU3Wo9grfM_VnZ2dnUVZ_qDinZ2d@comcast.com>
on Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:07:50 -0700:

> > Nick Spalding said:
> >>>> R J Valentine said:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Well, yeah, B is _... and C is -.-.
> It's just the way you spell or say it that is, let's say, unusual (to me).

And me.  The conventional dah dit usage would be "dahditditdit".
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Woody Wordpecker - 14 Jun 2008 09:51 GMT
> Skitt wrote, in <KsednU3Wo9grfM_VnZ2dnUVZ_qDinZ2d@comcast.com>
>  on Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:07:50 -0700:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> And me.  The conventional dah dit usage would be "dahditditdit".

What's "conventional" about it?  Radio operators in
vocalizing Morse symbols try to make them sound like they
sound when they're transmitted.  A "B" sounds like
['dA:dId@,dIt}, so that's what we say.  A transmitted "B"
doesn't sound at all like "dahditditdit" unless you're
sending at a very low speed.

But no one can keep boy scouts from saying the cumbersome
"dahditditdit" if they choose to, while I feel free to make
the vocalization sound like a transmission.
Nick Spalding - 14 Jun 2008 10:20 GMT
Woody Wordpecker wrote, in <k107549m3nuabnnu5b8oiojubq8grm1spd@4ax.com>
on Sat, 14 Jun 2008 01:51:00 -0700:

> > Skitt wrote, in <KsednU3Wo9grfM_VnZ2dnUVZ_qDinZ2d@comcast.com>
> >  on Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:07:50 -0700:
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> "dahditditdit" if they choose to, while I feel free to make
> the vocalization sound like a transmission.

Fair enough, but I don't see where your second "a" comes from, I would
think it should be "dahdididit".

I worked for 5 years from 1950 in the submarine telegraph business where
Morse was our bread and butter, though sent in the ternary Cable Code
where dots and dashes are the same length but opposite polarity and
space is no signal.
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Woody Wordpecker - 14 Jun 2008 11:02 GMT
>  Woody Wordpecker wrote, in <k107549m3nuabnnu5b8oiojubq8grm1spd@4ax.com>
>  on Sat, 14 Jun 2008 01:51:00 -0700:
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> Fair enough, but I don't see where your second "a" comes from, I would
> think it should be "dahdididit".

It's not a second "a" but the second dot spelled "da"
instead of "di".  "dahdididit" sounds like sending at an
unusually slow speed, like someone carefully enunciating
each syllable as they speak.  "dahdidadit" begins to sound
more like a normal speed.  But to make it sound like a
normally fast speed, you have to say something like
['dA:dId@l@t].  The dots come fast in a bunch, not one at a
time.

As I've said, for the same reason I would vocalize "H" not
as "ditditditdit", but more like "didd@l@dit", where "@"
stands for the sound of the "o" in "bacon", and "5" not as
"ditditditditdit", but more like "did@did@dit".

Try saying "ditditditdit" and "diddle a dit" alternately as
fast as you can and see which one you can say faster.

> I worked for 5 years from 1950 in the submarine telegraph
> business where Morse was our bread and butter, though
> sent in the ternary Cable Code where dots and dashes are
> the same length but opposite polarity and space is no
> signal.

How was the code then read, by a computer?

I've read that Morse originally intended his code to be
written as pen traces, which were to be later read visually
by trained personnel.  But it wasn't long before the trained
personnel realized it was easy to read the code by listening
to the clicks as the pen hit the paper.
Nick Spalding - 14 Jun 2008 13:18 GMT
Woody Wordpecker wrote, in <hd4754dovvquqclq2q7h4upr6nj8i5756k@4ax.com>
on Sat, 14 Jun 2008 03:02:27 -0700:

> > I worked for 5 years from 1950 in the submarine telegraph
> > business where Morse was our bread and butter, though
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> How was the code then read, by a computer?

Computer, in the early 1950s?  All electro-mechanical devices, most of
them designed in the 1920s.  It was punched into tape on a Keyboard
Perforator and sent by a transmitter which was known for historical
reasons as a Wheatsone Transmitter at a speed controlled by a pendulum
clock.

At intermediate stations in a chain of cables it was regenerated by a
complex of devices including a Synchroniser to adjust the local speed,
also derived from a local clock then fed to what was called an
Interpolater which cleaned up the signal and sent a brand new squared up
one into the next cable.

At the final destination in small stations it was punched out into tape
and typed up by hand by an operator reading the tape which was pulled
through a guide on the front of the typewriter by a motor controlled by
a switch operated by the operators knee.  In big stations busy circuits
had automatic printers.

> I've read that Morse originally intended his code to be
> written as pen traces, which were to be later read visually
> by trained personnel.  But it wasn't long before the trained
> personnel realized it was easy to read the code by listening
> to the clicks as the pen hit the paper.

Later this was a purposely noisy solenoid driven device known as a
Sounder.  On the cables the primary receiving device was in essence a
moving coil galvanometer with fine gold wires making contact as the coil
moved left and right.  These controlled a beefier pair of relays which
in turn drove a pair of heavy duty relays that fed the synchroniser and
interpolator and these were still known as Sounders.
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Woody Wordpecker - 14 Jun 2008 14:39 GMT
> Woody Wordpecker wrote, in <hd4754dovvquqclq2q7h4upr6nj8i5756k@4ax.com>
>  on Sat, 14 Jun 2008 03:02:27 -0700:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Computer, in the early 1950s?  

We had our Bendix G15 in the 50s.  (
http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/Bendix-G15-1950s.htm )
Another Web site says the G15 was introduced in 1956.

> All electro-mechanical devices, most of
> them designed in the 1920s.  It was punched into tape on a Keyboard
> Perforator and sent by a transmitter which was known for historical
> reasons as a Wheatsone Transmitter at a speed controlled by a pendulum
> clock.

> At intermediate stations in a chain of cables it was regenerated by a
> complex of devices including a Synchroniser to adjust the local speed,
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> in turn drove a pair of heavy duty relays that fed the synchroniser and
> interpolator and these were still known as Sounders.
R H Draney - 13 Jun 2008 20:58 GMT
Woody Wordpecker filted:

>> ...
>> } That paragraph was okay until I edited it to insert the word
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>.) It's about the same as saying the letter "B" in Morse:
>"Dahdiddadit".

Now do "if you twiddle it a little, it'll open"....r

Signature

What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?

Glenn Knickerbocker - 13 Jun 2008 21:18 GMT
> .) It's about the same as saying the letter "B" in Morse:
> "Dahdiddadit".

Sounds more like H to me:  didididit, just without the first d.

Or have I just been doing too much German music?

¬R
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 14 Jun 2008 01:03 GMT
> ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> But can you say "edited it" three times fast?
...

Now try "the physicists edited it".  (I used to work at a science
magazine where we talked about physicists and editing.)

"Teletype-music.  OK, Maestro, hit it.
Chug chug chug chug chug, but the way they've split it
Into its drumbeats and re-edited it it
Dances like a machine-gun.  Like a bird."

--George Starbuck, "The New Republic Is Infuriated at the News
Coverage"

The poem also rhymes "Peretz", "ferrets", and "Eretz", and
"commences", "defenses", and "Walesas".

--
Jerry Friedman
Herominous Bosh - 14 Jun 2008 02:13 GMT
[...]

> Now try "the physicists edited it".

Or "The statistical analysts edited it"?

Then there's "She shells she shells by the she shore."
Donna Richoux - 13 Jun 2008 21:06 GMT
> > > Does anyone have access to the book  "In Love with Norma Loquendi" by
> > > William Safire?
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> discussed by someone in your other thread, but I have only
> glanced at the postings in that thread.

Thanks for finding the book and giving the summary, Bob. It gives me
some new places to look. The Danish churches are new to me -- what we
had before were English churches. But the similarity is not surprising.

When I find new citations I'll put them on the other thread.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Woody Wordpecker - 13 Jun 2008 23:19 GMT
> > > > Does anyone have access to the book  "In Love with
> > > >Norma Loquendi" by
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> > legitimate under the concept of fair use.  Does anyone
> > disagree?

I gather no one disagreed, or didn't want to say so, anyway.

[...]

> Thanks for finding the book and giving the summary, Bob.

"Finding the book" was no problem.  It was right there on
the shelf with all my other Safire books.

Anyway, you're very welcome.
Jonathan Morton - 14 Jun 2008 09:26 GMT
>> > It's "Copyright © 1994 by The Cobbett Corporation".  I think
>> > my quoting here paragraphs from the handbasket article is
>> > legitimate under the concept of fair use.  Does anyone
>> > disagree?
>
> I gather no one disagreed, or didn't want to say so, anyway.

Looked fine to me. You acknowledged the source and quoted a tiny portion of
the whole for the purpose of commenting on it. If that's not fair use, I
don't know what is.

Regards

Jonathan
tinwhistler - 14 Jun 2008 04:27 GMT
> Does anyone have access to the book  "In Love with Norma Loquendi" by
> William Safire? Apparently he discusses the origins of "to hell in a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks -- Donna Richoux

Safire on numerous occasions wrote up stuff that passed on, without
giving credit to, research by ADS members, particularly Barry Popik,
and in the archives of ADS you'll find many expressions of resentment
to that effect.  In this case, I wouldn't be at all surprised if
Safire didn't pass on as his own some sightings by Ben Zimmer posted
here at aue, as seen in the following posting by Yale's Fred Shaprio:

Date:         Sun, 19 Sep 2004 08:29:40 -0400
From:         Fred Shapiro <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Antedating of "Hell in a Handbasket"

I have previously pointed to a 1926 citation in Whiting, Modern
Proverbs and Proverbial Phrases, as the earliest known usage of "going
to hell in a handbasket" (DARE has a first use in the 1940s, I
believe).

Ben Zimmer has posted an earlier citation on alt.usage.english, from a
Making of America search: Author: Ayer, I. Winslow. Title: The great
north-western conspiracy in all its startling details. Publication
date: 1865. He referred to the suspension of the habeas corpus, and
said many of our best men were at that moment "rotting in Lincoln's
bastiles;" that it was our duty to wage a war against them, and open
their doors; that when the Democrats got into power they would impeach
and probably hang him, and all who were thus incarcerated should be
set at liberty; that thousands of our best men were prisoners in Camp
Douglas, and if once at liberty would "send abolitionists to hell in a
hand basket;" he said the meanest of those prisoners was purity itself
compared to "Lincoln's hirelings."

Zimmer also posts a ProQuest-derived citation for "heaven in a
handbasket" much earlier than the previous earliest one known: Which
Will Garfield Do? Washington Post, Nov 16, 1880. p. 2 He feels that
but for the almost superhuman efforts the Stalwarts, like Grant,
Conkling, Cameron and Logan, made after the disaster in Maine, he
would have had no more chance of election than of going to heaven in a
hand-basket, and he will not quarrel with them.

Fred Shapiro [end excerpt from posting at ADS]

I assume, since Zimmer put these sightings up at aue first, you
already knew of them, so this all FWIW.
--
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Evan Kirshenbaum - 14 Jun 2008 08:22 GMT
[quoting Fred Shapiro]

> I have previously pointed to a 1926 citation in Whiting, Modern
> Proverbs and Proverbial Phrases, as the earliest known usage of
> "going to hell in a handbasket" (DARE has a first use in the 1940s,
> I believe).

It seems to have become common by the '40s.  From the _NY Times_:

   I saw the whaling industry try to go to hell in a handbasket.
   [11/29/1936]

   "There have always been people saying we're going to hell in a hand
   basket," he said.  [1/2/1942]

   If civilization is going to hell in a handbasket, there are still
   authors enough to write about it in a civilized way.  [12/7/1947]

But there are earlier ones:

   Marse Henry holds up his hands in horror at our reference to
   Grover Cleveland's letter of acceptance in 1892, and screams that
   because of it "the whole ship's crew of us went to hell in a
   hand-basket."

                 John Heaton, _The Story of a Page_, 1913

That's the first I see that seems to imply a general breakdown rather
than a personal damnation, as in

   "You are going straight to hell in a hand-basket, that's what you
   are Mr. Snads," said Mrs. Grimly, no longer able to restrain
   herself.  "We are going to have a big revival next week and we'll
   all pray for you, but I doubt if it will do any good for the likes
   of you, sir."

                 Hamilton Drane, _Madison Hood_, 1913

Oh, wait.  This gets it back to the nineteenth century:

   These are the unhung idiots who imagine that a nation, producing
   in abundance everything humanity needs would go to hell in a
   handbasket if it adopted an independent currency system or an
   international policy which Yewrup [sic] did not approve.

                 William Brann, _The Complete Works of Brann, the
                 Iconoclast_, 1898

The actual piece[1] is certainly older, as Brann died in 1898.  This
is probably from his newspaper, _The Iconoclast_, which he apparently
published in 1891 and from 1895 until his death in 1898, shot in the
back in Waco by someone upset about things he wrote about Baylor
University.

Brann also uses a similar phrase in another piece:

   I am a trifle confused, however, by the fact that, while one-half
   of these public educators proclaim, in effect, that the government
   planted by the sword of Washington and watered by the blood of
   Lincoln, would have gone to hades in a hand-basket had not
   Providence, in a burst of generosity, sent Cleveland to tide us
   over the awful crisis, the remainder are equally sure it cannot
   much longer survive his costly mistakes.  You pays your
   subscription and takes your choice.

                 William Brann, _Brann the Iconoclast: A Collection
                 of the Writings of W.C. Brann_, 1905

I'm starting to wonder if he might not actually be responsible for the
modern sense.  

I also found a similar metaphorical extension a bit earlier:

   "You'd better believe there's hell in a hand-basket for the d--d
   cowardly radical party."

                (George Benham), _A Year of Wreck_, 1880

[1] In the same piece, Brann writes

       Is America to be a new and greater Rome, bequeathing freedom to
       all mankind; or will the Anglomaniacs annex it to England and
       ordain that the tail shall wag the dog?

   I don't remember how far back we had pushed the notion of the tail
   wagging the dog when this came up recently.

Signature

Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
   HP Laboratories                    |Sorry, captain.  Convenient
   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |technobabble levels are dangerously
   Palo Alto, CA  94304               |low.

   kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
   (650)857-7572

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

CDB - 14 Jun 2008 16:28 GMT
[...]

>    These are the unhung idiots who imagine that a nation, producing
>    in abundance everything humanity needs would go to hell in a
>    handbasket if it adopted an independent currency system or an
>    international policy which Yewrup [sic] did not approve.

>                  William Brann, _The Complete Works of Brann, the
>                  Iconoclast_, 1898

The respelling of "Europe" looks like mockery of effete Anglophiles,
who are too prissy to say "Yurp" like a real American.

[...]
 
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