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Discussion Groups / English Usage / June 2008The rising cost of doughnuts
One bit of American slang appears to be getting Shanghaied by inflation – the common reference to betting dollars to doughnuts. Just eight years ago a book came out that failed to take note of the changing times: http://tinyurl.com/6mlvr9 Food: A Dictionary of Literal and Nonliteral Terms by Robert A. Palmatier – 2000 pp. 104-5 The expression to bet dollars to doughnuts (i.e., my dollars to your doughnuts -- HDAS 1893) illustrates how low on the food chain the doughnut has sunk. A single doughnut is one of the cheapest snacks you can buy. HDAS apparently needs to be updated (I’m sure it’s already been done for the next edition), perhaps with this 1886 usage: New York Times - Apr 15, 1886 A MATCH WITH SCISSORS.; FLYING HAIR AS ABUNDANT AS AT A CAT FIGHT. PROF. HARROD DEFEATS PROF. CHARMAK IN A HAIR-CUTTING CONTEST, BEST TWO IN THREE SUBJECTS Hair flew and scissors gleamed on the west side last night. There have been contests and contests, and men have met upon the arena with sword and spear and lance: but last night two champion tonsorial artists waged a battle with bare scissors....It was announced that Prof. Harrod would cut the hair of Felix Chambeaux, while Prof. Charmak would perform the same office for Prof. Watson.. Mr. Chambeaux was a handsome gentleman with a head of short and glossy black hair. Prof. Watson had an unkempt head of long brown hair. Prof. Charmak was plainly handicapped, and it was dollars to doughnuts on his opponent’s having the best of the first round… I have two questions for auers: Can anyone antedate the 1886 usage? What are auers’ favorite examples of common phrases undone by inflation? -- Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego tinwhistler filted: >What are auers=92 favorite examples of common phrases undone by >inflation? Well, that *is* the sixty-four dollar question!...r  SignatureWhat good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone? >tinwhistler filted: >> >>What are auers=92 favorite examples of common phrases undone by >>inflation? > >Well, that *is* the sixty-four dollar question!...r Not a common phrase, but there is a line in Flanders & Swan's "Transport of Delight" which gives pause. They suggest that it would be worth it "if tickets cast a pound apiece". The minimum fare on central London buses is now £1.50. When the song was written it was probably 3d, in which case it has inflated by a factor of 120. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" Don Aitken filted: >>tinwhistler filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >central London buses is now £1.50. When the song was written it was >probably 3d, in which case it has inflated by a factor of 120. In the original version of the spoof "Hardware Wars", a narrator promises "you'll laugh; you'll cry; you'll kiss three bucks goodbye"...the gag was later borrowed for the opening of "Siskel and Ebert at the Movies", showing Roger Ebert typing a movie review with the lines "I laughed; I cried; I kissed six bucks goodbye"...in subsequent seasons, the amount being kissed was changed to reflect typical ticket prices....r SignatureWhat good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone? >Don Aitken filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >bucks goodbye"...in subsequent seasons, the amount being kissed was changed to >reflect typical ticket prices....r That, and a nickel, will buy you a cup of coffee. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida tony cooper wrote: >>Don Aitken filted: >>>R H Draney wrote:>>> >>>>tinwhistler filted: >>>>>What are auers' favorite examples of common phrases undone by >>>>>inflation? >>>>Well, that *is* the sixty-four dollar question! >>>Not a common phrase, but there is a line in Flanders & Swan's >>>"Transport of Delight" which gives pause. They suggest that it would >>>be worth it "if tickets cast a pound apiece". The minimum fare on >>>central London buses is now £1.50. When the song was written it was >>>probably 3d, in which case it has inflated by a factor of 120. >>In the original version of the spoof "Hardware Wars", a narrator >>promises "you'll laugh; you'll cry; you'll kiss three bucks [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>subsequent seasons, the amount being kissed was changed to reflect >>typical ticket prices. > That, and a nickel, will buy you a cup of coffee. Here's a dime, call someone who cares. >tony cooper wrote: >>>Don Aitken filted: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Here's a dime, call someone who cares. Get off the table, Mabel. The quarter's for the beer. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>tony cooper wrote: >>>>Don Aitken filted: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Get off the table, Mabel. The quarter's for the beer. If I had a nickel for every time I had to tell her that... (Although that one's not quite defunct. I hear "...a dollar..." more often that "...a nickel...", but nickle-collectors are still out there.) Barbara Bailey filted: >>>tony cooper wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >If I had a nickel for every time I had to tell her that... Go ahead; it's your nickel.... (My grandfather used to answer the phone with that one back when a payphone actually did cost a nickel...he stopped after the voice on the other end said "no, it's yours; this is a collect call"....r SignatureWhat good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone? >>>>Don Aitken filted: >>>>>R H Draney wrote:>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Get off the table, Mabel. The quarter's for the beer. That and two bucks will get you on the IRT. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Can anyone antedate the 1886 usage? Sort of (but not by much). The New-Yorks took a long lead in the first part of the game, and when the seventh inning closed with the figures 8 to 2 in their favor, the odds, to use the expression of Harry Wright, were "a hundred dollars to a doughnut" that they would win. _NY Times_, 6/21/1885 SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Giving money and power to government 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |is like giving whiskey and car keys Palo Alto, CA 94304 |to teenage boys. | P.J. O'Rourke kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Can anyone antedate the 1886 usage? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > _NY Times_, 6/21/1885 A couple of years earlier, but still not bare "dollars": "The elder whacked the limit at me and I shot it back. Then comes the four card man and tops the gang. Out went the elder on his opening pair of queens and the supernumerary fled at sight. Wouldn't you have slapped it at the exhorter who drew four?" "Four dollars to doughnuts," conceded the managing editor, every drop of bood in his veins boiling. _Brooklyn Daily Eagle_, 9/2/1883 SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If we have to re-invent the wheel, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can we at least make it round this Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time? kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > A couple of years earlier, but still not bare "dollars": > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "Four dollars to doughnuts," conceded the managing editor, every > drop of bood in his veins boiling. In Britain, one could offer: "Half a dollar" for half a crown (twelvepence-ha'p'ny in new money) - which was correct in the days of 4 dollars to the pound. "A pound to a penny" - previously odds of 240 to1, now 100 to 1. "Spending a penny" - there was a thread on this a week or two back (now six bob at Birmingham New Street - tie a knot in it instead and go on the train). Conversely, we have been quite good at having inflation-proof measures of length (London buses), height (Nelson's columns) and area (swimming pools of football pitches). Didn't Einstein illustrate his early theories in terms of trains travelling through space? Regards Jonathan > "Spending a penny" - there was a thread on this a week or two back (now six > bob at Birmingham New Street - tie a knot in it instead and go on the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Didn't Einstein illustrate his early theories in terms of trains travelling > through space? Trams in Berne, where he worked at the Patent Office. This isn't really a parallel - he cited the trams in a thought experiment about what would happen to the beam of light from the front of the tram if it were travelling at relativistic speeds. It was not any form of measure. During the 70s and 80s when our Victorian sewers all seemed to collapse, holes in the road in Manchester were reckoned in DDBs (double-decker buses). France and Wales are used as country-sized measures of area. SignatureDavid > France and Wales are used as country-sized measures of area. The conversion factors for Leftpondia are 1 France (metropolitan) = 1 Texas (approx.) and 1 Wales = 1 New Jersey (approx.). I guess they work as country-sized measures for those who live in small countries. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. On Jun 15, 12:35 pm, Roland Hutchinson <my.spamt...@verizon.net> wrote: > > France and Wales are used as country-sized measures of area. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I guess they work as country-sized measures for those who live in small > countries. And for small volumes the 'breadbox' has been often used, at least LeftPondially. cheers, Stephanie >On Jun 15, 12:35 pm, Roland Hutchinson <my.spamt...@verizon.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >And for small volumes the 'breadbox' has been often used, at least >LeftPondially. For even smaller volumes, Winnie The Churchill specified "no bigger than a man's fist" Jitze >> France and Wales are used as country-sized measures of area. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I guess they work as country-sized measures for those who live in small > countries. A kindly soul just posted this to umra: http://www.sensibleunits.com/ It knows about the Wales and the Texas but not the New Jersey. SignatureDavid >>> France and Wales are used as country-sized measures of area. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > It knows about the Wales and the Texas but not the New Jersey. Amazing. One Mount Everest equals a mere 20 Empire State Buildings. Who knew? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>> France and Wales are used as country-sized measures of area. >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Who knew? ...that I0 human hair widths equals ten stacked pieces of paper, according to it. What weight paper, which part of the body are the hairs taken from and are they black, blonde or red? No machinist would be impressed, I suspect. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >..., which part of the body are the hairs taken from and >are they black, blonde or red? The RCH is defined here: http://tinyurl.com/4czphw >No machinist would be impressed, I suspect. But the article says this is as used by engineers... Jitze >>..., which part of the body are the hairs taken from and >>are they black, blonde or red? > >The RCH is defined here: > >http://tinyurl.com/4czphw When working as a technician before I got my degree, I used the term to describe to the machinists how much material they should mill off from the instruments we were constructing. >>No machinist would be impressed, I suspect. > >But the article says this is as used by engineers... Now you're picking hairs. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> France and Wales are used as country-sized measures of area. >> The conversion factors for Leftpondia are 1 France (metropolitan) = [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > It knows about the Wales and the Texas but not the New Jersey. I don't trust it. I typed in "100 miles" and it said "33 Mont Blancs", and I know for a fact that the pens aren't anywhere near that big. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There are just two rules of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |governance in a free society: Mind Palo Alto, CA 94304 |your own business. Keep your hands |to yourself. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> France and Wales are used as country-sized measures of area. >> The conversion factors for Leftpondia are 1 France (metropolitan) = [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > It knows about the Wales and the Texas but not the New Jersey. It apparently knows about the "Wale". 10000 square miles is, according to it, 1.2 Wales. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |On a scale of one to ten... 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |it sucked. Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>> France and Wales are used as country-sized measures of area. >>> The conversion factors for Leftpondia are 1 France (metropolitan) = [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It apparently knows about the "Wale". 10000 square miles is, > according to it, 1.2 Wales. And how big is a Texa? (¿De qué tamaño es una Teja?) SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson filted: >>> A kindly soul just posted this to umra: >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >And how big is a Texa? (¿De qué tamaño es una Teja?) About 3¼ times the size of a Kansa, or over 25 times as large as a Massachusett....r SignatureWhat good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone? > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > About 3¼ times the size of a Kansa, or over 25 times as large as a > Massachusett....r What's that in Glos? SignatureMike. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** Mike Lyle filted: >> Roland Hutchinson filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >What's that in Glos? The Kansa, of course, is a bit less than double the size of the Mississippus....r SignatureWhat good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone? >> Roland Hutchinson filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > What's that in Glos? Do you know how much doughnuts cost in Glos? Google on [cost of doughnut gloucestershire]* gives £337 million as the first answer and figures of up to £1.1bn in later hits. * where [] delimit the entry in the search box, but - unlike the obvious quotes - do not suggest they should be part of the syntax of the search term. > MikeLylewrote: [...] > > What's that in Glos? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > quotes - do not suggest they should be part of the syntax of the search > term I believe it was about three years ago that I mentioned here the true function of the Cheltenham doughnut: the clue is, of course, its all- metal construction. -- Mike. > >> Can anyone antedate the 1886 usage? > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Great researching (as usual), Evan -- thanks. What could be a better origin for a hugely common American slang expression than a Brit migrating here to assemble the first professional all-American sports team? Wikipedia excerpt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Wright William Henry Wright (January 10, 1835 – October 3, 1895) was an English-born American professional baseball player, manager, and developer. He assembled, managed, and played center field for baseball's first fully professional team, the 1869 Cincinnati Red Stockings… From an invitation in 1871 by Ivers Whitney Adams, the founder and President of the Boston Red Stockings, Wright moved from managing the "Cincinnati Red Stockings" to work professionally with the first-ever base ball team in Boston, the "Boston Red Stockings" Sure, the Brooklyn Eagle ran a 1983 version of the phrase different from the one attributed to Wright in 1985, but the person quoted in 1985 was merely referring to a known earlier expression, like Berra's deja vu all over again. I also like the origin of the phrase in a specified number of dollars, because the hundred dollars to doughnuts is not yet undone by inflation. -- Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > > >> Can anyone antedate the 1886 usage? > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > -- > Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego My last paragraph upthread has three /9/s that should all be /8/s -- the context is the late-1800s. Sorry. -- Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > What are auers’ favorite examples of common phrases undone by > inflation? > -- There was a similar expression, "a pound to a piece of sh.t". If we take "sh.t" to mean heroin, that's definitely been hit by inflation. I'm not sure of the maths of the literal meaning, which seems to involve dividing by zero. >> What are auers’ favorite examples of common phrases undone by >> inflation? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sure of the maths of the literal meaning, which seems to involve dividing > by zero. In BrE there were also two expressions which were more or less inflation-proof: "Lombard Street to a China orange" and "all England to a pound of tea". I use the past tense advisedly. It's a very long time since I have heard either. Conversely, I was genuinely surprised to get a blank stare when one of my business partners asked me the best way to get somewhere in our city and I replied "Shanks' pony". Jonathan >>> What are auers? favorite examples of common phrases undone by >>> inflation? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >business partners asked me the best way to get somewhere in our city and I >replied "Shanks' pony". That *is* surprising. FWIW I'd say "Shanks's pony". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Jun 15, 6:02 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:57:28 +0100, "Jonathan Morton" > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > That *is* surprising. FWIW I'd say "Shanks's pony". And I'd say 'Shanks's mare'. cheers, Stephanie in Brussels > On Jun 15, 6:02 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > And I'd say 'Shanks's mare'. Has anyone ever heard or used "per pedes"? I have encountered it only from a non-native speaker of English. (And no, not a native speaker of Latin.) SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>Conversely, I was genuinely surprised to get a blank stare when one of my >>business partners asked me the best way to get somewhere in our city and I >>replied "Shanks' pony". >> > That *is* surprising. FWIW I'd say "Shanks's pony". Actually, I think that is what I said, and I'm not quite sure why I didn't write it that way in my previous post. Certainly I am normally a "blanks's" user, as opposed to "blanks'". Jonathan >>> What are auers favorite examples of common phrases undone by >>> inflation? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I use the past tense advisedly. It's a very long time since I have heard >either. I've used "All Lombard Street to a China orange" in the not-too-distant past. But I suspect myself of deliberate affectation. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ |
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