Pronunciation of "algae"?
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Christian Weisgerber - 06 Sep 2008 22:22 GMT Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the /dZ/ pronunciation. By contrast, Cambridge Advanced Learner's Online only has /g/. Is this a pondian difference?
 Signature Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de
Robert Bannister - 07 Sep 2008 00:29 GMT > Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator > pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the > /dZ/ pronunciation. By contrast, Cambridge Advanced Learner's > Online only has /g/. Is this a pondian difference? That I can't answer. I know I grew up (in England) with the soft g pronunciation, but the hard g seems to be taking over, so now I use either while making a vain attempt to guess what my audience is familiar with. The first time I met the hard g pronunciation was in Germany, where the English teacher had taken me into his class - can't remember which strange book they were studying that contained the word. "Lichen" is another one: used to be "litchen", but today seems to be "liken".
 Signature Rob Bannister
John Dean - 07 Sep 2008 00:48 GMT >> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator >> pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the word. "Lichen" is another one: used to be "litchen", but today > seems to be "liken". It's a funny one. OED suggests 'alga' with a hard 'g' and 'algae' with a soft. 'lichen' as 'liken' is the only pronunciation given but they acknowledge the litch-en version in the past, usually as a 'second place' but now 'rare in educated use.' I always assumed as a kid that it was litch-en until I heard someone talk about John Wyndham's novel "The Trouble with Lichen"
 Signature John Dean Oxford
Paul {Hamilton Rooney} - 07 Sep 2008 05:15 GMT > >> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator > >> pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > - Show quoted text - When I was at school it was 'al guy' in the Latin class but 'alj eye' or 'al jay' or ' al jee' in other classes.
LFS - 07 Sep 2008 07:48 GMT >>> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator >>> pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I always assumed as a kid that it was litch-en until I heard someone talk > about John Wyndham's novel "The Trouble with Lichen" Me too, until I met a botanist who fell about laughing at my pronunciation. She also used a hard g in "algae".
And how do you say "lych gate"?
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John Dean - 07 Sep 2008 13:02 GMT >>>> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the >>>> narrator pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > And how do you say "lych gate"? 'lych' as in the Queen's photographer cousin. 'gate' as in baby food. I see OED has "lich-gate" as the first spelling.
 Signature John Dean Oxford
HVS - 07 Sep 2008 13:16 GMT On 07 Sep 2008, John Dean wrote
>> And how do you say "lych gate"? > > 'lych' as in the Queen's photographer cousin. 'gate' as in baby > food. I see OED has "lich-gate" as the first spelling. The pronunciation of the first element, though, has clearly varied over time: the OED spellings include "like", "lijk", and "lyke".
Our local area of Lychpit is pronounced "litch-pit", but in the VCH volume on the parish -- published 1911 -- was spelled "Lickpit".
 Signature Cheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
tony cooper - 07 Sep 2008 14:54 GMT >>>> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator >>>> pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >And how do you say "lych gate"? Can we bring in "niche" as in "niche market"? I cannot bring myself to say "neech" and remain, resolutely, with "nitch".
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Alan Jones - 07 Sep 2008 15:00 GMT [...]
> Can we bring in "niche" as in "niche market"? I cannot bring myself > to say "neech" and remain, resolutely, with "nitch". I say "neesh" for both niche market and a recess for e.g. a statue (which I fear I sometimes say as "statchew").
Alan Jones
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 07 Sep 2008 16:13 GMT > [...] >> Can we bring in "niche" as in "niche market"? I cannot bring myself >> to say "neech" and remain, resolutely, with "nitch". > > I say "neesh" for both niche market and a recess I think I probably said nitch when I was young, but I'm more likely to say neesh now.
> for e.g. a statue (which I > fear I sometimes say as "statchew"). Doesn't everyone? I'm pretty sure I do if I'm not paying a lot of attention.
athel (BrE)
LFS - 07 Sep 2008 16:45 GMT >>>>> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator >>>>> pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Can we bring in "niche" as in "niche market"? I cannot bring myself > to say "neech" and remain, resolutely, with "nitch". Ah, the opposite for me, I say "neesh". Nitch sounds too much like "an itch". And, if I started pronouncing it that way, I believe that very few people of my acquaintance would have a clue what I was talking about.
 Signature Laura (emulate St. George for email)
R H Draney - 07 Sep 2008 17:32 GMT LFS filted:
>> Can we bring in "niche" as in "niche market"? I cannot bring myself >> to say "neech" and remain, resolutely, with "nitch". > >Ah, the opposite for me, I say "neesh". Nitch sounds too much like "an >itch". And, if I started pronouncing it that way, I believe that very >few people of my acquaintance would have a clue what I was talking about. Do you still have occasion to refer to "microfiche"?...r
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Purl Gurl - 07 Sep 2008 19:24 GMT >>> Can we bring in "niche" as in "niche market"? I cannot bring myself >>> to say "neech" and remain, resolutely, with "nitch".
>> Ah, the opposite for me, I say "neesh". Nitch sounds too much like "an >> itch". And, if I started pronouncing it that way, I believe that very >> few people of my acquaintance would have a clue what I was talking about.
> Do you still have occasion to refer to "microfiche"? Our country recorder's office is still equipped with microfiche and microfiche machines. Quite antiquated and quite the long strange trip to use. There is a newer computerized system in place but only goes back a short period of time, I think about ten years or so.
To look up recorded documents, such as a deed, trust deed, lien, whatever, you need a date span or instrument number before you begin. This requires looking through huge books with ink hand entries; names, legal description, dates...
Once a narrow date range or narrow instrument number range is had, you show an ID, sign off, are handed a microfiche then off to a room with about a dozen microfiche machines.
Quite the challenge because you slide those microfiche, actually the tray, around by hand, like a huge 35mm slide. All the information flies by at warp 9 speed. You end up tapping the tray with a fingernail to move slowly. There are knobs for movement but are so worn out those knobs either do not work or are very jerky. Some knobs act like a rubber band being twisted up; sudden flying release.
I use those, at times, to look up ownership records to establish good title on a home without having to pay a title company to do this.
Quite useful, I used those records to kick a.s on an attorney in civil court. A need came about to prove we own a road, about a half mile long, which runs from the base of our hills, along our property and on up into the neighborhood. Found two deeds, one in the early forties, another in 1948, both conveying this road with our land. Quite the surprise to learn we legally own this road which all our neighbors use. Our deed cites two legal descriptions, one for our land, one for this road; parcel one and parcel two.
Attorney said we could not build a workshop because of an easement for a road, an old dirt road running around our hill like a horseshoe. I advised him, he is wrong. He laughed and told me I know nothing about real estate law. Once in court, I ripped him to pieces; no easement for anyone, just simple fee ownership by our family. Judge ruled in our favor, I said to this idiot attorney who tried to intimidate us, "You know nothing about real estate law."
Last laugh is ours and our road remains ours. We allow our neighbors to use the paved portion, however.
 Signature Purl Gurl -- So many are stumped by what slips right off the top of my mind like a man's bad fitting hairpiece.
Skitt - 07 Sep 2008 19:54 GMT Purl Gurl wrote, in small part:
> Attorney said we could not build a workshop because > of an easement for a road, an old dirt road running [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Last laugh is ours and our road remains ours. We allow > our neighbors to use the paved portion, however. Hmm. Unless things have changed since I studied real estate law (in California), you better be careful. Unless you periodically deny your neighbors passage on that portion of the road or give them written permission to use it, you may encounter some difficulties in claiming a clear title to it at some time in the future.
Something like "Adverse Possession: Continuous Trespassers' Rights" comes to mind.
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/
Purl Gurl - 07 Sep 2008 20:58 GMT > Purl Gurl wrote, in small part: I never write in a small way, you know this.
>> Attorney said we could not build a workshop because >> of an easement for a road, an old dirt road running [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> idiot attorney who tried to intimidate us, "You know >> nothing about real estate law."
>> Last laugh is ours and our road remains ours. We allow >> our neighbors to use the paved portion, however.
> Hmm. Unless things have changed since I studied real estate law (in > California), you better be careful. Unless you periodically deny your > neighbors passage on that portion of the road or give them written > permission to use it, you may encounter some difficulties in claiming a > clear title to it at some time in the future.
> Something like "Adverse Possession: Continuous Trespassers' Rights" > comes to mind. Not a problem. Our home was the first built up in these hills, back in 1949 - 1950 years. Original road was graded dirt shaped much like a sidewinder moving along. Over the decades, other homes were built for a total of 12 homes on hundreds of acres of land. No more homes can be built up here, no land left to buy.
Eventually, the horseshoe shaped part of our road, which runs along the backside of our hill, was abandoned and the main road straightened out a little bit by moving the road to the front part of our hill. Our dirt road section, about an 1/8 mile long, is too narrow and too rugged for general usage; one car wide, sheer cliffs right and left.
In the Sixties, the city came in and paved the main road. However, there are no easements nor dedications to the city for road usage; we own the road. Same applies for utility services; electric, gas, telephone, cable. Nonetheless, so many people use this road, including city services, emergency services, much too late for us to close the road. This would lead to a legal battle I know we would not win. Not interested, anyhow.
Our dirt road is gated at both ends. None use our dirt road except us. On this, we are in good legal shape. Rather annoying, we have a total of three driveways. This leads to "yellow books", ads in plastic bags containing rocks, freebie newspapers and such, being tossed on all three driveways; three times the normal amount of live spam.
Whatever, I do enjoy periodically teasing our snobbish elitist neighbors, "We own that road out there, we can forbid you from using our road."
"Adverse Possession" is the right term. After several decades of usage of our main paved road, this now belongs to the public, or more precise, there is a "public easement" through adverse possession.
Reminds me of a story. You will delight in this one.
There is acreage adjacent to ours, was acreage. This shady accountant owned the land. He and wife had plans to build on this land. We did not want a house next to ours, although hundreds of yards away.
We effected a plan.
Years back, before we could buy our current primary residence, this land was listed for sale. We were interested. Being halfway intelligent, we ordered up "perk tests" on the land to be sure a septic tank could be used. Drilling team came out, drilled down about six feet and hit virgin hard rock granite. Perk test failed, no septic tank, no building.
This is when the accountant came in and bought this land without running any tests to be sure he could build a home. Six years he fought with the city trying to attain a building permit. No dice, no septic tank, no nearby sewer line, slope of the land too much, all kinds of problems.
We bought the home and land, adjacent to his land.
I searched records and found a trust deed on his acreage with a beneficiary we know personally, trust deed is for $80,000 even. During a con job dinner with our friend, her lips are loosened with Mai Tai drinks, she tells us the accountant was in the middle of a divorce, caught cheating with another woman at their church, and he filed for bankruptcy. Odd thing about this trust deed, which caught my attention, no legal description of land, just a note about "secured by personal property." Ah ha!
Sure enough, with aid of flirting by my husband, she tell us the trust deed is paper only, completely worthless. She adds the accountant had her file this trust deed, no money down from him, no payments, no note, nothing. This trust deed is filed to keep his land out of the bankruptcy; encumbered full value, court cannot auction off the land. This, of course, is a criminal offense.
I call the accountant, asks if he wants to sell his land, "Yes, and my price is $80,000 for the land. I have a trust deed on my land for that amount." Lying sack of sh.t.
Year later, for sale sign up on the land.
Our plan goes into action. I stay home all the time, each and every day. When a realtor shows up with clients, off I go hiking over to this land, "Hi! I live over there. Did you folks know the city will not issue a building permit for this land?" and I explain about perk tests, slope and all that. All client showings failed; none would buy. Ha!
More time passes and we effect part two of our plan; we start improving his land, run water lines over, do some grading, knock down weeds, plant trees. Very nice!
Reminds me, each year we were sure to file a complaint with our fire department about weeds and fire hazard. Each year the accountant had to pay to have his land cleared off, with a tractor.
I catch the accountant out front of his land on a fateful day. He is sitting in his big black Mercedes, I ask, "You ready to sell your land to us?" He goes on about this $80,000 trust deed. "Well, Mr. Shady Accountant, I looked into your trust deed. Yours is paper only, no note, unsecured and you filed that trust deed to keep your land out of bankruptcy proceedings."
He is stunned, turns bright red and drives off in a big hurry, not a word said.
Month later, we receive a letter from an attorney giving us permission to make improvements on his land. This is too cover for "Adverse Possession" which you mention. This is our clue the accountant is in a real fix; he cannot stop us because he knows we have "dirt" on him, the trust deed ruse.
Six months later, he calls, "Would you like to buy my land?" I tell him we would, he says $80,000 and I say $20,000 he says no, I say "fine" and hang up.
I know we have him, he is in a real pickle.
Check around with friends, "Oh yeah, Mr. Accountant is in a sh.t load of trouble, the IRS is after him."
Few days later, he calls, "Would you like to buy my land?" Sure, $20,000 even. No, he wants $50,000 even. I counter with $25,000, he counters with $40,O00. "Well, Mr. Accountant, there is this problem of that trust deed, you know. How about $30,000 and you make sure your trust deed is reconveyed?" Out the blue, "Ok, you have a deal."
Back then the value of the land was about $100,000 and today, about a half million.
Moral: Don't mess with an Indian out to take your land.
 Signature Purl Gurl -- So many are stumped by what slips right off the top of my mind like a man's bad fitting hairpiece.
Prai Jei - 07 Sep 2008 21:42 GMT Skitt set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum:
>> Once in court, I ripped him to pieces; >> no easement for anyone, just simple fee ownership by >> our family. Legalistic BrE would employ the poetic inversion "fee simple" here. Is thisthe usual AmE form?
> Hmm. Unless things have changed since I studied real estate law (in > California), you better be careful. Unless you periodically deny your [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Something like "Adverse Possession: Continuous Trespassers' Rights" comes > to mind. There is something in English law (don't quote me on this) about a common right of way coming into existence if a road is continuously open for a year and a day or something like that, if the owners do not assert their rights in this way.
In such cases in the UK, where the owner wishes to retain his rights to the road, it is usual to deny common access to the road on one day a year, usually a day which would cause least inconvenience to regular users New Years's Day, Good Friday and Christmas Day are usual choices.
There's an example in my native city of Cardiff, a footpath links Working Street (one of the main shopping streets) with Trinity Street (where there is an entrance to the central market). Usually this footpath is open to the public providing convenient access to the market, but it passes through the grounds of St. John's Church and is strictly Church property. So on Good Friday every year (when the market is not open anyway) the Church authorities close this footpath off.
Reciprocally, if said common right of way over a road never gets used within the said year and a day, the owner can assert his rights over the road once more.
An example of this converse case was formerly found in the neighbouring city of Newport. In the mid 19th century some railway lines were laid along a few of the streets to provide access to the early dock and riverside wharf systems. By the early 20th century these lines had fallen out of regular use, but the Great Western Railway asserted their right of way over these lines by running a "light engine" (i.e. a locomotive on its own, not hauling a train) along them on Good Friday each year. This continued until 1929 after which the railway company abandoned their rights. The tracks no longer exist....
Your APCTR or whatever it is may well have been inherited from this precept of English law.
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Skitt - 07 Sep 2008 22:48 GMT > Skitt wrote: >> Purl Gurl had written:
>>> Once in court, I ripped him to pieces; >>> no easement for anyone, just simple fee ownership by >>> our family. > > Legalistic BrE would employ the poetic inversion "fee simple" here. Is > this the usual AmE form? No, "fee simple" is the AmE term also.
 Signature Skitt (AmE)
Purl Gurl - 07 Sep 2008 23:58 GMT >>> Purl Gurl had written:
>>>> Once in court, I ripped him to pieces; >>>> no easement for anyone, just simple fee ownership by >>>> our family.
>> Legalistic BrE would employ the poetic inversion "fee simple" here. Is >> this the usual AmE form?
> No, "fee simple" is the AmE term also. I should write "simple fee simple".
Heh, heh, sounds like a clown's name.
 Signature Purl Gurl -- So many are stumped by what slips right off the top of my mind like a man's bad fitting hairpiece.
Hatunen - 08 Sep 2008 05:29 GMT >Skitt set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >usually a day which would cause least inconvenience to regular users New >Years's Day, Good Friday and Christmas Day are usual choices. There is a street through the Rockefeller Center complex in New York that is the property of the Center and is not a public thoroghfare although it is used heavily by the public. Once a year the Center would shut donw the street, on a Sunday morning so as not to disrupt traffic, in order to keep the steet in private ownership.
I don't recall which street; it may be the one now used by the Today Show for musical performances, which would obviously obviate the need for the annual closures.
>There's an example in my native city of Cardiff, a footpath links Working >Street (one of the main shopping streets) with Trinity Street (where there [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Your APCTR or whatever it is may well have been inherited from this precept >of English law. Each state has its own legal system (and the federal government has one as well) and almost all have adopted the English commmon law, although they have statutized much of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_United_States
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
LFS - 07 Sep 2008 19:50 GMT > LFS filted: >>> Can we bring in "niche" as in "niche market"? I cannot bring myself [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Do you still have occasion to refer to "microfiche"?...r Very occasionally our librarians apologise for only having documents available "on the fiche". I haven't heard the whole word used for a long time.
 Signature Laura (emulate St. George for email)
Mark Brader - 09 Sep 2008 07:19 GMT Laura Spira:
> Very occasionally our librarians apologise for only having documents > available "on the fiche". ... The!
 Signature Mark Brader | "...there are lots of things that I don't remember, Toronto | but if you ask for an example, I can't remember any." msb@vex.net | --Michael Wares
Jeffrey Turner - 08 Sep 2008 04:50 GMT > LFS filted: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Do you still have occasion to refer to "microfiche"?...r Strangely, I pronounce that as "microfeesh" but "niche" is "nitch."
Who said pronunciation had to be consistent?
--Jeff
 Signature Oh, I'm not a pheasant plucker, I'm a pheasant plucker's son. And I'm sitting plucking pheasants till the pheasant plucker comes.
R H Draney - 08 Sep 2008 05:12 GMT > > Do you still have occasion to refer to "microfiche"?...r > > Strangely, I pronounce that as "microfeesh" but "niche" is "nitch." > > Who said pronunciation had to be consistent? Emerson?...
Was just checking some old Gallagher videos for a language point or two...in one, he mentions remembering when his father first promised to teach him how to read...says dear ol' dad pointed at a sign and told him it said "Good Food", whereupon baby Gallagher realized something was wrong; "those words don't rhyme"....r
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 08 Sep 2008 13:06 GMT >> LFS filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Who said pronunciation had to be consistent? There was, at one time, for a short time, a "witticism" in BrE about a meal of small morsels of finny seafood and small morsels of fried potato being "microfiche and microchips".
This was comprehensible only to those who were aware of "microfeesh" and the chips in microcomputers.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
R H Draney - 08 Sep 2008 22:58 GMT BrE filted:
>>> Do you still have occasion to refer to "microfiche"?...r >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >This was comprehensible only to those who were aware of >"microfeesh" and the chips in microcomputers. "Tonight, Abe Vigoda teams up with Erik Estrada on the season premiere of 'Fish 'n' Chips'"....
(It was funnier about 25 years ago)....r
 Signature Evelyn Wood just looks at the pictures.
Oleg Lego - 09 Sep 2008 06:20 GMT >BrE filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >(It was funnier about 25 years ago)....r Good one!
Tonight on NBC. ... and the Man. The story of a cantankerous garage owner whose young assistant has just committed suicide.
-- This post was full when it was composed. Contents may have settled in shipping.
Oleg Lego - 09 Sep 2008 06:17 GMT >>> LFS filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >This was comprehensible only to those who were aware of >"microfeesh" and the chips in microcomputers. And especially so to those of use who pronounce it "microfish".
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Skitt - 09 Sep 2008 17:34 GMT > Peter Duncanson (BrE) posted: >> Jeffrey Turner wrote: >>>> LFS filted:
>>>>>> Can we bring in "niche" as in "niche market"? I cannot bring >>>>>> myself to say "neech" and remain, resolutely, with "nitch". [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > And especially so to those of use who pronounce it "microfish". That would be me.
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/
John Dean - 07 Sep 2008 23:22 GMT >>>>> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the >>>>> narrator pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Can we bring in "niche" as in "niche market"? I cannot bring myself > to say "neech" and remain, resolutely, with "nitch". I used to be in a click that said it that way.
 Signature John Dean Oxford
Mike M - 08 Sep 2008 16:39 GMT > >>>>> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the > >>>>> narrator pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > I used to be in a click that said it that way. I was going to bring this up. I've always said "cleek", but my Dear Old Ma used to talk about "clicks". It was years before I realised that we were talking about the same thing.
Mike M
Chuck Riggs - 08 Sep 2008 16:27 GMT >>>>> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator >>>>> pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Can we bring in "niche" as in "niche market"? I cannot bring myself >to say "neech" and remain, resolutely, with "nitch". Most of us, I suspect, live a lifetime without needing, using, wanting, or missing the word.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
Chuck Riggs - 07 Sep 2008 15:28 GMT >>>> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator >>>> pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Me too, until I met a botanist who fell about laughing at my >pronunciation. She also used a hard g in "algae". How rude is that? Tropical fish fanciers almost invariably use the soft g, at least in America, and they see a lot of the stuff.
>And how do you say "lych gate"?
 Signature Regards,
Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 07 Sep 2008 10:52 GMT >>> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator >>> pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It's a funny one. OED suggests 'alga' with a hard 'g' and 'algae' with a > soft. I don't find anything particularly strange about that. It is essentially suggesting that we should pronounce according to the spelling: alga with a soft g would go against all the rules, algae with a hard g would go against the (weaker) convention that ae in a word of Latin origin is treated as if it were an e (the digraph itself being pronounced like an e): think of Caesar, caesarean, caesium, caesura, caecum etc., but ae in a word not of Latin origin is not: Gaelic, Caerphilly etc.
Whether this is a good rule or not is another matter, but it's what our forefathers did in the days when all educated people were taught some Latin. In those days a knowledge of Latin was assumed, and people didn't feel the need to wear their knowledge on their sleeve.
The change in pronunciation of algae has taken place during my career: I'm pretty sure it was soft when I first heard, but it has become hard since. Nowadays I think most, but not all, people with a professional interest in algae use a hard g. In French they make it quite clear that that is what is expected by inserting a u: algues.
It's a word we'd do well to drop entirely, and not worry about how to pronounce it, because it comprises a group of organisms that by no stretch of the imagination constitute a clade. (It's much worse than "fish", because at least the animals we call fish have quite a lot in common with one another.) It is like having a word that distingishes citizens of the USA, Bangladesh, San Marino and Nigeria from those of other countries.
> 'lichen' as 'liken' is the only pronunciation given but they > acknowledge the litch-en version in the past, usually as a 'second place' > but now 'rare in educated use.' > I always assumed as a kid that it was litch-en until I heard someone talk > about John Wyndham's novel "The Trouble with Lichen" It always _was_ litch-en in our youths, before people felt the need to parade their knowledge of Greek. In the days when people really knew some Greek they didn't bother. I think I probably still say litch-en on the rare[1] occasions when I say it at all.
[1] Q. Why did I say "rare"? A. Because it's the word that best fits the context.
athel (BrE)
Paul {Hamilton Rooney} - 07 Sep 2008 11:13 GMT On Sep 7, 5:52 pm, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:
> >>> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator > >>> pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > - Show quoted text - How do you pronounce the -ae?
Garrett Wollman - 07 Sep 2008 17:27 GMT >It's a word we'd do well to drop entirely, and not worry about how to >pronounce it, because it comprises a group of organisms that by no >stretch of the imagination constitute a clade. Many English-language names for groups of living things are paraphyletic.[1] Thankfully, English is defined by all the people who use it, and not just by systematists. It is one thing to say that a category in the vernacular taxonomy is not *useful* (although I think the burden of proof is fairly high for such a claim); it is another to say it should be abandoned because a word which happens to be spelled the same way has been deprecated by (some flavor of) scientific taxonomy.
-GAWollman
[1] E.g., worms, trees, nuts, vegetables, bears, most ethnonyms, squash, ...
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 07 Sep 2008 18:46 GMT >> It's a word we'd do well to drop entirely, and not worry about how to >> pronounce it, because it comprises a group of organisms that by no >> stretch of the imagination constitute a clade. > > Many English-language names for groups of living things are > paraphyletic.[1] True, but all of the words you mention in your footnote (apart from "ethnonyms") are everyday words used in everyday conversation by ordinary people. I don't believe "algae" is. All of your groups (including ethnonyms) are made up of groups that have at least something in common -- even "bears". They don't put into one basket a motley bunch of seaweeds, bacteria and fungi that are not even in the same kingdom. (That's why I included the words "by no stretch of the imagination" in my comment.)
> Thankfully, English is defined by all the people who > use it, and not just by systematists. Of course, but how often do people who use English but are not interested in systematics need to talk about algae at all? What's wrong with "seaweed" as a word?
> It is one thing to say that a > category in the vernacular taxonomy is not *useful* (although I think > the burden of proof is fairly high for such a claim); Do you find it "useful" to group things together that have nothing in common apart from all being living things.
> it is another to > say it should be abandoned Well, I was offering it as an opinion, not trying to force my opinion on anyone else. However, if you maintain a different opinion you need to say why you find "algae" such a valuable word that the language would be empoverished without it.
> because a word which happens to be spelled > the same way I'm not sure what you're on about here. Are you saying that "algae" were invented independently by different groups who didn't realize that their chosen word is already in use, i.e. that it's a similar case to the two entirely different genera of Drosophila that are still recognized for insects but no longer for fungi? I suppose that some fungus enthusiasts were unhappy about having the word "Drosophila" taken away from them, but do think the language as a whole suffered?
> has been deprecated by (some flavor of) scientific > taxonomy. Modern taxonomy is usually a matter of agreement. "Flavours" shouldn't (and usually don't) enter into it.
> -GAWollman > > [1] E.g., worms, trees, nuts, vegetables, bears, most ethnonyms, > squash, ...
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Paul Wolff - 07 Sep 2008 20:02 GMT >On 2008-09-07 18:27:32 +0200, wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) said: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >"ethnonyms") are everyday words used in everyday conversation by >ordinary people. I don't believe "algae" is. Not every day, perhaps, but it will be well known among the readers of Garden Ponds Monthly and others with an interest in water features.
>All of your groups (including ethnonyms) are made up of groups that >have at least something in common -- even "bears". They don't put into >one basket a motley bunch of seaweeds, bacteria and fungi that are not >even in the same kingdom. (That's why I included the words "by no >stretch of the imagination" in my comment.) This is where I lose the drift of the argument. If it's not an everyday word, and doesn't have a consistent meaning, then who coined it, and to what purpose? I suggest it was coined by naturalists to denote a group of aquatic plants from seaweed to spirogyra, that generally float around in clumps and strands, and photosynthesize. Seems reasonable to me. If for taxonomic purposes the word doesn't suit, then scientists can come up with specialist names for their own purposes.
As for these bacteria and fungi -- why were they deemed to be algae in the first place? If it's because they look like algae, walk like algae, and quack like algae, then why not says they are algal organisms, and let them join the club?
>> Thankfully, English is defined by all the people who >> use it, and not just by systematists. > >Of course, but how often do people who use English but are not >interested in systematics need to talk about algae at all? What's wrong >with "seaweed" as a word? Because it's plain stupid to say that a bloom on a garden pond or swimming pool is due to seaweed?
<Runs out of typing energy>
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Robert Bannister - 09 Sep 2008 01:46 GMT > Of course, but how often do people who use English but are not > interested in systematics need to talk about algae at all? What's wrong > with "seaweed" as a word? Nothing, but in ordinary speech "algae" is mainly used to describe pond scum or the slime on fish tank walls, for which "seaweed" is not very appropriate.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Mike M - 08 Sep 2008 16:41 GMT > > Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator > > pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > which strange book they were studying that contained the word. "Lichen" > is another one: used to be "litchen", but today seems to be "liken". I think that the hard "g" may have gained ground to avoid sounding like the name "Algy" (short for Algernon - a character in the "Biggles" books, and intrinsically funny).
Mike M
R H Draney - 08 Sep 2008 23:00 GMT Mike M filted:
>I think that the hard "g" may have gained ground to avoid sounding >like the name "Algy" (short for Algernon - a character in the >"Biggles" books, and intrinsically funny). Algy met a bear. The bear was bulgey. The bulge was Algy.
....r
 Signature Evelyn Wood just looks at the pictures.
LFS - 08 Sep 2008 23:07 GMT > Mike M filted: >> I think that the hard "g" may have gained ground to avoid sounding [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ....r I knew it with a second line inserted: The bear met Algy. It sounds more balanced, I think.
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R H Draney - 09 Sep 2008 01:07 GMT LFS filted:
>> Algy met a bear. >> The bear was bulgey. >> The bulge was Algy. > >I knew it with a second line inserted: The bear met Algy. It sounds more >balanced, I think. I think I remember that one too...the shorter version was recited, I think, in an episode of "Sabrina the Teenage Witch" (the animated show from the early 70s, not the live-action sitcom starring Melissa Joan Hart)....r
 Signature Evelyn Wood just looks at the pictures.
CDB - 09 Sep 2008 06:11 GMT > LFS filted:
>>> Algy met a bear. >>> The bear was bulgey. >>> The bulge was Algy.
>> I knew it with a second line inserted: The bear met Algy. It >> sounds more balanced, I think.
> I think I remember that one too...the shorter version was recited, > I think, in an episode of "Sabrina the Teenage Witch" (the animated > show from the early 70s, not the live-action sitcom starring > Melissa Joan Hart)....r That version was one item on a shortlist that my mother would resort to in the 1940s, if I whined for a second bedtime story.
John Dean - 09 Sep 2008 14:02 GMT >>> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator >>> pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > like the name "Algy" (short for Algernon - a character in the > "Biggles" books, and intrinsically funny). The Hon Algernon Lacy. NTM Algy Pug - Rupert's pal.
 Signature John Dean Oxford
Mike M - 09 Sep 2008 14:57 GMT > >>> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator > >>> pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > The Hon Algernon Lacy. > NTM Algy Pug - Rupert's pal. Gave me quite a nostalgic glow, that. Bingo the Brainy Pup, Edward Trunk, Pong Ping, Bill Badger....
Just had a look at http://www.rupertbear.com/ - it's HORRIBLE. Nasty Disney-style animated trash. Bring back Alfred Bestall!
Mike M
Amethyst Deceiver - 10 Sep 2008 13:36 GMT In article <7afcc8e1-4066-4aec-8b58- 8e3b9d8d904f@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, mikmooney@googlemail.com says...
> > The Hon Algernon Lacy. > > NTM Algy Pug - Rupert's pal. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Just had a look at http://www.rupertbear.com/ - it's HORRIBLE. Nasty > Disney-style animated trash. Bring back Alfred Bestall! I've seen the new Rupert animations and the Bestall-based animated cartoons and the new animations are far, far better. For a start, they've got English accents, rather than North American attempts at English accents.
 Signature Linz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary
Bogosity - 08 Sep 2008 05:37 GMT > Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator > pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de On RADIO? Oh...and I see the Deutsche ID. I see no surprise. The /dZ/ spelling totally mystifies me. IOW, I'm guessing "aljay", or using a limited understanding of ASCII IPA, "alja:" _______ Jee is an illiteral name for a letter. In Jerman, it's "Gay", which is not a politically correct term for a butt-f.cker in English.<a href="http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/">BrewJay's Babble Bin</a>
Christian Weisgerber - 29 Nov 2008 23:00 GMT Back in September I wrote:
> Subject: Pronunciation of "algae"?
> Watching the BBC's "Pacific Abyss", I just noticed that the narrator > pronounces "algae" with /g/. Merriam-Webster Online only gives the > /dZ/ pronunciation. By contrast, Cambridge Advanced Learner's > Online only has /g/. Another BBC documentary ("Oceans", episode 3), more algae. Apart from the competing pronunciations, there is a new twist: the use of "algae" as a singular.
"It's this algae that gives the coral its colour." "... the algae is stressed to such a degree..." "... a specific heat-tolerant algae."
A quick Google search suggests that this usage is quite common already. (The best hit has to be this one: "blue-green algae is a bacteria". Ouch.)
 Signature Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de
Chuck Riggs - 30 Nov 2008 15:39 GMT >Back in September I wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >already. (The best hit has to be this one: "blue-green algae is a >bacteria". Ouch.) As an aquarist for much of my life, I can assure you that alga, even where it might make better sense than algae, is rarely used in texts about aquariums or tropical fish. Biologists, on the other hand, might well use the word.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
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