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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2008Sopping macs
Hello: None of the dictionary definitions I have for "sop" really applies here. I think it means "dripping or oozing [not 'oozing through']" in the context. How about it? ----- [Holiday in Scotland] We take cover in another Kitchen, a 'Highland' one this time, which is full of people and pushchairs, sopping macs and dripping umbrellas ... Behind the Scenes at the Museum, by Kate Atkinson, p. 229 ----- ------ sop transitive verb 1 : to steep or dip in or as if in a liquid <sop bread in gravy> 2 : to mop (as water) so as to leave a dry or semidry surface 3 : to give a bribe or conciliatory gift to intransitive verb 1 : to become completely soaked 2 : to soak in : ooze through M-W Unabridged ------- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > How about it? sopping: (adj. colloq.) thoroughly, soaking wet. And a mac is a mackintosh coat not a computer, as you probably knew. > > None of the dictionary definitions I have for "sop" really applies here. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > sopping: (adj. colloq.) thoroughly, soaking wet. And a mac is a > mackintosh coat not a computer, as you probably knew. OK. Yes, I know the "mac." Thank you all. Marius Hancu >> > None of the dictionary definitions I have for "sop" really applies >> > here. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Yes, I know the "mac." The tautological expression "sopping wet" is often used as well. You may well hear somewhat exclaim, perhaps needlessly, "I'm sopping wet!" having spent too long outside on a very wet day. pe >> Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >sopping: (adj. colloq.) thoroughly, soaking wet. And a mac is a >mackintosh coat not a computer, as you probably knew. I don't know what date this scene is, but it's worth remembering that until the 1950s or 60s the mac or raincoat was usually a gabardine or a Burberry or something of that sort, which gradually got completely saturated (and eventually let water through), rather than the water-impervious rainwear of today. I don't remember exactly when the alternative of the plastic mac became widespread in the UK.  SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>> Hello: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >water-impervious rainwear of today. I don't remember exactly when the >alternative of the plastic mac became widespread in the UK. My first guess would be mid-1960s. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> Hello: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >My first guess would be mid-1960s. Racking my memory further, my guess would be earlier. I have a mental picture of a grey item which I took to camp* as a child, or at least as not more than a young teenager, and that must have been mid or late 50s. *This was camping under canvas, rather than an AmE-style children's camp. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>>> Hello: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > *This was camping under canvas, rather than an AmE-style children's > camp. I have a photograph of my father wearing a plastic mac (a Pacamac, I believe) taken in the late 1950s. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>> Hello: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >I have a photograph of my father wearing a plastic mac (a Pacamac, I >believe) taken in the late 1950s. I had a bike for my tenth birthday in 1949, and in order not to get soaked to the skin riding to school in the rain I had a sort of poncho thing that covered me from the neck down. It was made out of bright yellow oilcloth and it draped over the handlebars and saddle. It came with a sou'wester. A few other kids had similar gear but many had to sit in wet clothes all day. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >I had a bike for my tenth birthday in 1949, and in order not to get >soaked to the skin riding to school in the rain I had a sort of poncho >thing that covered me from the neck down. It was made out of bright >yellow oilcloth and it draped over the handlebars and saddle. Known as a "cycle cape". Modern ones seem to have a built-in hood: http://cms.onlineteam.org/images/large_2820/0abd345f-1176755560.jpg > It came >with a sou'wester. A few other kids had similar gear but many had to >sit in wet clothes all day. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >I had a bike for my tenth birthday in 1949, and in order not to get >soaked to the skin riding to school in the rain I had a sort of poncho >thing that covered me from the neck down. It was made out of bright >yellow oilcloth and it draped over the handlebars and saddle. It came >with a sou'wester. A few other kids had similar gear but many had to >sit in wet clothes all day. Ah, that would have been what we called an oilskin cape: my father had one of those for cycling long before plastic macs were invented. It was made of canvas waterproofed wit linseed oil, and it had loops for the thumbs* so that one could hold it down on the handlebars in the vent of wind as well as rain. I had one of the same design, but made of plastic, at a much later stage, and I'd probably have one today if I didn't prefer to avoid cycling in the rain. Still available in all good cycle shops. *I think they were for the thumbs, but it's so long ago that I wouldn't be at all surprised to be corrected on that. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:03:17 +0000, Robin Bignall ><docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >the thumbs* so that one could hold it down on the handlebars in the >vent of wind as well as rain. If that weather happened to me, I'd call for a polyglottal stop and shelter till it was over. SignaturePaul Paul wrote on Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:18:31 +0000: >> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:03:17 +0000, Robin Bignall >> <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> could hold it down on the handlebars in the vent of wind as >> well as rain. > If that weather happened to me, I'd call for a polyglottal > stop and shelter till it was over. As a British teenager, I did a lot of cycle touring and, given the weather, I used a plastic rain cape a lot. They were usually yellow, emulating oilskin, I guess. Wearing shorts, I did not get excessively wet. My son inherited the taste for bike touring but in the US and I had to explain the rain cape and also why my lightweight bike had mudguards when he saw a picture. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >>I don't know what date this scene is, but it's worth remembering that >>until the 1950s or 60s the mac or raincoat was usually a gabardine or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > My first guess would be mid-1960s. Before that ... we had Pacamacs (TM) when we were kids in the mid- to late-50s, so called because you could fold and roll them so tightly they would fit in a pocket. pe >"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >the mid- to late-50s, so called because you could fold and roll >them so tightly they would fit in a pocket. I think the Pacamac or Pakamac coats are on a different evolutionary line from the mac. They were of the totally impervious school of weatherwear, albeit cut superficially like regular mackintosh coats. I see them as lightweight oilskins. They were made of welded sheets of PVC, I think. The Pakamac trademark registration was applied for three weeks after the rainy Coronation in 1953. Any connection? Your actual mac was a water-repellent textile and an early step on the way to the technical outerwear clothing of today. One of the next steps was the Gannex, whose makers were cosy with that chubby pipe-smoking Prime Minister who took a sudden and mysterious early retirement. http://www.gtj.org.uk/small/item/GTJ75041/ The Gannex trademark goes back to 1955. 'Technical clothing' has some aue value. I see that the white waterproof jacket I bought last summer when passing through Cowes is 'technical' - it's much like the one here being sported under the beard: http://www.whatboat.com/gear-news/henri-lloyd-chosen-as-technical-clothin g-sponsor-to-sir-robin-knox%11johnston-for-velux-5-oceans/ http://tinyurl.com/5lrhyw It works well, I'll say that for it. SignaturePaul >>"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > The Pakamac trademark registration was applied for three weeks after the > rainy Coronation in 1953. Any connection? You are quite right but Katy wondered when (above) "plastic macs" first came into being, to which Peter and I offered our two penn'orth. And you seem to have provided a definitive answer. pe >>> "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > two penn'orth. And you seem to have provided a definitive > answer. A few loose threads are still protruding from the unseamy side, though. Pakamacs were of impervious material, sure enough, but not of impervious design: their lightness meant rain got in through the front opening. I roughly remember the advertising phrase "Pakamac away for a rainy day". There was also the problem of what you did with the thing when it stopped raining. And the Burberry-type raincoat was indeed not ultimately waterproof. What /was/ waterproof was the real Mackintosh, as in trench coat or, as Paul recalls, the Gannex. This was rubber sandwiched between two layers of cloth. SignatureMike. >>>> Hello: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >My first guess would be mid-1960s. Pakamacs were available by 1953. http://www.historyworld.co.uk/advert.php?id=1089&offset=0&sort=0&l1=Fashion+%26+ Clothing&l2=Mens+%26+Ladies http://tinyurl.com/63bddp SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > I don't know what date this scene is, but it's worth remembering that > until the 1950s or 60s the mac or raincoat was usually a gabardine or > a Burberry or something of that sort, which gradually got completely > saturated (and eventually let water through), rather than the > water-impervious rainwear of today. I don't remember exactly when the > alternative of the plastic mac became widespread in the UK. Not quite . . . There even in the postwar decade a "riding mac" that was truly waterproof, with a thin sheet of rubber between two fabric surfaces, marketed since the late 19th century to fanatical riders to hounds (foxhunters.) This of course required elaborate arrangements for ventilation so as not to boil the wearers. Such were a feature of riding macs (which were double the price of ordinary raincoats) but not found in the plastic macs which appeared in the late 1950s. The modern raincoat was invented during the First World War, cf. its American name of trench coat, normal civilian wear by the 1950s. The oddity is in the military only officers (and naval petty officers) were permitted to buy and wear uniform raincoats. All soldiers and airmen were allowed to wear in rainy weather was the groundsheets that were part of standard kit (for use when camping under canvas.) These were of two main types, the larger (Canadian or US wartime issue? with an extra panel and collar and buttons which made it a passable rain cape: the standard rectangular groundsheet made men on parade in the rain look like refugees from some disaster . . . Only in the late 1950s did the RAF authorize NCOs to buy raincoats at their own expense and parade as comfortably in typical British weather as their officers (whose raincoats were issued free by HM Stores.) Even though some parts of England are much drier than others, everyone knew what a sopping mac was. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) <snip> All soldiers and airmen were allowed to > wear in rainy weather was the groundsheets that were part of > standard kit (for use when camping under canvas.) These > were of two main types, the larger (Canadian or US wartime > issue? with an extra panel and collar and buttons which made > it a passable rain cape: <snip> I remember there was one of these in our garage when I was a kid so I would dispute they were a purely US/Canadian issue item. They did indeed make a passable rain cape and were very useful to carry when cycling. I presume it came from an Army surplus or Army & Navy or Famous Army stores sometime before I was born which is why I should be surprised to find they were the sole province of N.Am quartermasters. G DAEB COPYRIGHT (C) 2008 SIPSTON -- > I don't know what date this scene is, but it's worth remembering that > until the 1950s or 60s the mac or raincoat was usually a gabardine or a > Burberry or something of that sort, which gradually got completely > saturated (and eventually let water through), rather than the > water-impervious rainwear of today. I don't remember exactly when the > alternative of the plastic mac became widespread in the UK. The Mackintosh process used rubberised canvass which, though heavy, /was/ waterproof. >> I don't know what date this scene is, but it's worth remembering that >> until the 1950s or 60s the mac or raincoat was usually a gabardine or a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The Mackintosh process used rubberised canvass which, though heavy, /was/ >waterproof. However, if the macs refered to in the extract were "sopping wet", then they can't have been this variety. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>> I don't know what date this scene is, but it's worth remembering >>> that [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > However, if the macs refered to in the extract were "sopping wet", > then they can't have been this variety. All this talk about macs and I finally tumbled. For me, the word has evoked images of the Mackinaw jacket, which, when I was young, reached its epitome when made from a Hudson's Bay blanket. I also called them blanket coats. I didn't realize that the US military hid the lining but kept the name. The mac was an allweather coat (well, cold-weather) and the thick blanket had the consistency of a sturdy tweed. It wasn't really impermeable, but was slow to let the rain through. In the military versions their was an outer "duck" shell, which could be impregnated or rubberized or "oiled". Now, having found Pac-Macs and other "mac" jackets, I see very little resemblance to the macs that I knew. In fact, there was one image of a man in a Pac-Mac, and I am wondering whether that hooded model was discontinued because it is definitely "anorak" in style. >>>> I don't know what date this scene is, but it's worth remembering >>>> that [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >>>/was/ >>>waterproof. See OED definition below. >> However, if the macs refered to in the extract were "sopping wet", >> then they can't have been this variety. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >man in a Pac-Mac, and I am wondering whether that hooded model was >discontinued because it is definitely "anorak" in style. "mac" as an outer garment is Brit., S. Afr., and Austral. It is an abbreviation of: mackintosh, n. Now chiefly Brit. [< the name of Charles Macintosh (1766-1843), used to designate garments made of the waterproof material invented by him (British patent no. 4804, 17 June 1823), consisting of two or more layers of cloth cemented together with India rubber dissolved in naphtha.] 1. Originally: a full-length coat or cloak made of waterproof rubberized material. Subsequently: a rainproof coat made of this or some other material. 2. Cloth made waterproof by a layer of rubber. The abbreviation "mac" came to be used informally for other raincoats that were not fully waterproof. These might became saturated (sopping wet) in very wet conditions. The fully waterproof thin plastic pac-a-mac was introduced more than a century after Macintosh's original patent. pac-a-mac, n. [< PACK v.1 + A adj. + MAC n.3, with spelling of PACK v.1 altered after MAC n.3] A kind of lightweight plastic raincoat designed to be folded up conveniently into a small pack when not being worn. A proprietary name in the United Kingdom. 1951 Men's Wear 7 July 30/2 Pakamac. The gent's plastic raincoat. (Definitions, etc from OED) SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> I don't know what date this scene is, but it's worth remembering >>>>> that [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > >(Definitions, etc from OED) I thought Pakamacs had gone out of production / fashion long ago and was surprised to see a full range on sale at the M20 services last but one time I went to France. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > I don't know what date this scene is, but it's worth remembering that > until the 1950s or 60s the mac or raincoat was usually a gabardine or > a Burberry or something of that sort, which gradually got completely > saturated (and eventually let water through), rather than the > water-impervious rainwear of today. I don't remember exactly when the > alternative of the plastic mac became widespread in the UK. I'm pretty sure plastic macs were available in the late 50s - of course, although they don't get soaked, they do transfer large amounts of water to your legs. There were also "treated" coats, where the material had had some chemical applied that allegedly made it water-impervious - I seem to remember having some spray that I used frequently, but without much success, on a short coat round about the same period. SignatureRob Bannister > Marius Hancu wrote >We take cover in another Kitchen, a 'Highland' one this time, which is full >of people and pushchairs, sopping macs and dripping umbrellas ... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >1 : to become completely soaked >2 : to soak in : ooze through Think of both sopping and dripping as adjectives here, not verbs. DC -- > None of the dictionary definitions I have for "sop" really applies > here. > I think it means "dripping or oozing [not 'oozing through']" in the > context. > How about it? "Sopping" is an adjective, meaning, as the online M-W puts it, "wet through". Thoroughly wet, you might say. > [Holiday in Scotland] > We take cover in another Kitchen, a 'Highland' one this time, which > is full of people and pushchairs, sopping macs and dripping > umbrellas ... > Behind the Scenes at the Museum, by Kate Atkinson, p. 229 > sop [M-W definitions] >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >How about it? OED: sopping, ppl. a. Soaking; drenched; saturated with water or rain. It comes from: sop, v. 1. a. trans. To dip, soak, or steep (bread, etc.) in some liquid. Also absol. b. To drench with moisture; to soak; also fig., to intoxicate. c. To carry away by soaking. d. With up: to soak up, absorb. Also fig. 2. intr. a. To be, or become, soaking wet. b. Of moisture: To soak in or through. The verb is not marked as obsolete, but the only usage I would expect to meet would be 1.d. "sop up": to "take up as if with a sponge". >----- >[Holiday in Scotland] [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >Thanks. >Marius Hancu SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) |
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