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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009Cop/Pop a Squat
On the US TV show, _It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia_, I heard a character played by Danny DeVito tell someone to "pop a squat," inviting the person to sit down. The phrase I'd always heard was "cop a squat" -- "cop" meaning to take, and "squat" meaning to sit. Literally, "take a seat." Looking on Google, it appears that "pop a squat" is actually a more popular phrase (13,500 for "pop" versus 10,500 hits for "cop"), but it generally refers to squatting in order to urinate or, less commonly, defecate. Google helpfully provides images for the "pop" version. Apparently there is some debate on various message boards about pop versus cop. Most seem to think cop predates pop, and many suggest that pop is a misheard variant. In one discussion, a teacher wanted to know if it was okay to tell his second-grade students to "pop a squat" and someone tells him to use "cop a squat" instead. Potential for sitcom style hilarity in that situation seems inbuilt. -JoAnne -- JoAnne Schmitz wrote, in part: [...] > ... Potential for sitcom style hilarity in that > situation seems inbuilt. "Inbuilt," apparently, is chiefly BrE. In the US, "built-in" is used (with few exceptions, as far as I know). How about in Oz, New Z., S. Afr., Scot., Ire., Can., and any other English-speaking areas represented in AUE? Maria C., for whom "inbuilt" prompts the thought of "ingrown," as in toenails. > JoAnne Schmitz wrote, in part: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Maria C., for whom "inbuilt" prompts the thought of "ingrown," as in > toenails. Good on you for changing the thread subject.  SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > Good on you for changing the thread subject. Thank you. I try to do that from time to time. SignatureMaria C. >> Good on you for changing the thread subject. > >Thank you. I try to do that from time to time. Good girl...whoops, you're in America. Good woman, Maria. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Maria C. filted: >JoAnne Schmitz wrote, in part: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Maria C., for whom "inbuilt" prompts the thought of "ingrown," as in >toenails. Do you have "infill", the term for putting houses or other structures into the empty spaces missed by earlier construction?...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Maria C. filted: >> JoAnne Schmitz wrote, in part: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Do you have "infill", the term for putting houses or other structures > into the empty spaces missed by earlier construction?...r I've never heard "infill" used. (But the term reminds me of "landfill.") SignatureMaria C. >> Maria C. filted: >>> JoAnne Schmitz wrote, in part: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I've never heard "infill" used. (But the term reminds me of "landfill.") Man, this thread is drifting fast. Infill is common here. There aren't many desirable lots left inside the Washington Beltway, so many builders have been putting houses on lots that had been passed over the first time. For example, near here there is a large house, newly built on spec and not yet sold, sitting right next to Pimmit Run. Before the house was built, a retaining wall was put in at the base of a steep slope, and now the back door can't be more than ten feet from that retaining wall. And the house has to be in the flood plain of the run. I don't know how they could get a building permit. But if you want a new house close in, you take whatever lot you can get or else tear down an old house to make room for the new one. There's a lot of that going on, or was until the housing crash. There's another alternative, often seen: take a one-story house that has a sound foundation, gut it, and "pop the roof" to make it into a two-story house. Many of the older houses in the DC area, such as ours, are of solid masonry construction that can easily support a second floor. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>> Maria C. filted: >>>> JoAnne Schmitz wrote, in part: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > ours, are of solid masonry construction that can easily support a > second floor. In my area, "infill" is a nasty word. Many bought nice homes near one or another of San Diego's wonderful "canyons" that infiltrate the mesas (level land at the top of a relatively steep incline). Most of the canyons are public land and dedicated to parkland and "open space", and lend character to the city. Lend wild animals to the residential neighborhoods, as well. Thes charming city, blessed with wonderful weather and lovely physical aspects, mismanaged its finances and is facing serious cuts in services, and will eventually, I fear, sell the sides of its canyons for residential development. The infill will cause overflow in the already insufficient and declining infrastructure. That is if there is money left after the financial world sorts itself out: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/JL05Cb02.html SignatureFrank ess > Thes charming city, blessed with wonderful weather and lovely physical > aspects, mismanaged its finances and is facing serious cuts in > services, and will eventually, I fear, sell the sides of its canyons > for residential development. And will we in due course be reading in the news about more wildfires and mudslides? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Thes charming city, blessed with wonderful weather and lovely >> physical aspects, mismanaged its finances and is facing serious [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And will we in due course be reading in the news about more > wildfires and mudslides? Count on it. SignatureFrank ess >In my area, "infill" is a nasty word. Many bought nice homes near one >or another of San Diego's wonderful "canyons" that infiltrate the >mesas (level land at the top of a relatively steep incline). Most of >the canyons are public land and dedicated to parkland and "open >space", and lend character to the city. Lend wild animals to the >residential neighborhoods, as well. You left out about the part where not only wild animals but wildfires come into the housing areas. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> R H Draney wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > ours, are of solid masonry construction that can easily support a > second floor. "Infill" as a term is new to me. That may be because there aren't that many houses being built (and sold) in this area these days. There are many partially-full housing subdivisions in the Detroit area. And there are plenty of empty houses. Filling in the blank spots (empty lots) is not needed in this economy. Most of us in this area are hoping for an "auto bailout"; the alternative is, at best, a gradual but extensive loss of jobs in the area. Maria, waiting for the howls. >>> R H Draney wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > >Maria, waiting for the howls. Why should we taxpayers, who will be paying the bill to bail out the Big Three, believe American car makers will get it right at this particular moment in history when they have had many years to do so, yet have failed miserably? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> "Infill" as a term is new to me. That may be because there aren't >> that many houses being built (and sold) in this area these days. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > particular moment in history when they have had many years to do so, > yet have failed miserably? Points: 1. I live here (Detroit area) and have relatives working in the auto business; my husband retired from Ford and also worked for Chryser at one time. I am, therefore, somewhat prejudiced in this matter. But I don't think I'm overly so. 2. There are those who believe the automakers "had it wrong" all these years: that the prices were too high*, that the auto workers were paid too much; that American cars were too big/heavy to provide good gas mileage. In any case, they felt that buying a foreign car was a wise move (or even a retribution of sorts). *However, I believe that it's hardly cost-consciousness when a Lexus or a Mercedes replaces a American- or Canadian-made auto. (Also, it's been a while since car prices were a real factor.) 3. I can see a cut in wages being reasonable; and changes to better-mileage cars are already being done. 4. Opinion: Those who want the American car companies to go belly-up are being very foolish. The domino effect comes to mind -- suppliers and dealers will fold. Local businesses currently patronized by workers will have a big drop in sales. Houses will be repossesed. Taxes paid will be less. 5. Instead of punishing the automakers and putting them out of business, why not give them a chance to continue the changes they've already begun? And while we're at it, how about doing what's possible to return other jobs to this country? Having so much labor done out of the country causes losses of a lot of jobs. It also seems to have resulted in lower quality in some cases. Dollar stores full of inexpensive imports aren't the key to a thriving economy. 6. Wal-mart should also do some rethinking. [I have to stop for now. I have to go out for a bit. Perhaps I'll pick up on all this later. In the meantime, I fully expect opposing opinions.] SignatureMaria C. No re-read done for editing purposes. >> Why should we taxpayers, who will be paying the bill to bail out the >> Big Three, believe American car makers will get it right at this [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > one time. I am, therefore, somewhat prejudiced in this matter. But I > don't think I'm overly so. OK. > 2. There are those who believe the automakers "had it wrong" all these > years: that the prices were too high*, that the auto workers were paid [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Lexus or a Mercedes replaces a American- or Canadian-made auto. > (Also, it's been a while since car prices were a real factor.) I think the lack of reliability has been the major reason for deserting the domestic products in favor of the Japanese ones. I don't own any domestic brand cars as one of them was built in Canada, the other in Germany. http://www.geocities.com/opus731/cars.html While a Lexus is fine, a Mercedes is not a very good choice when searching for reliability or trouble-free driving. I know. Also, the people bying those two products are not looking to save money -- they used to buy Cadillacs and Lincolns, probably. > 3. I can see a cut in wages being reasonable; and changes to > better-mileage cars are already being done. It appears, the wages and benefits exacted by the unions made the required pricing scheme of the product non-competitive. > 4. Opinion: Those who want the American car companies to go belly-up > are being very foolish. The domino effect comes to mind -- suppliers > and dealers will fold. Local businesses currently patronized by > workers will have a big drop in sales. Houses will be repossesed. > Taxes paid will be less. I am very conflicted on this -- I firmly believe that a poorly run company should be allowed to fail. On the other hand, the consequences of such failures, as there would be more than one of them, are disastrous. What to do, what to do? > 5. Instead of punishing the automakers and putting them out of > business, why not give them a chance to continue the changes they've [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > resulted in lower quality in some cases. Dollar stores full of > inexpensive imports aren't the key to a thriving economy. I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of the afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go belly up, I think). > 6. Wal-mart should also do some rethinking. Hmm. Maybe. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of the >afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go belly up, I think). The trouble is that it's a bit more complicated now, because the automakers are no longer vertically integrated to the extent they were when River Rouge was built. So Ford, which has the strongest financial situation of the three, doesn't actually need to be "bailed out" -- but if one of its competitors goes under, there are shared supplier networks and service providers that could pull Ford down with the ship. The old Ford (of forty years ago or more) would be perfectly happy -- and rationally so -- to see one of its competitors fail. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of the >>afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go belly up, I think). [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >The old Ford (of forty years ago or more) would be perfectly happy -- >and rationally so -- to see one of its competitors fail. When I was working for General Motors in the 1950s Chrysler got a large loan from an insurance company -- $100,000,000 in 1950's doillars, I believe -- and the scuttlebut around the job was that GM had secretly underwritten the loan. It was also well known that at the time GM could have chargegd several hundred less for a car and done quite well, but didn't lwoer prices. The reason was that allowing Chrysler to go under or lowering Chevrolet prices would have boosted GM's market share so much that anti-trust would try to break it up. This is right about the time that VW Beetles were becoming widely seen on streets and roads. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of the > afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go belly up, I think). All or none, I say. The government should not be in the position of deciding which competitor is to live and which to die. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. On 06 Dec 2008, John Varela wrote >> I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least >> two of the afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > position of deciding which competitor is to live and which to > die. Except -- as you rightly point out in your other post -- Chrysler's already had their bailout, and they blew it. On the face of it, limiting it to the other two this time round seems fair. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 06 Dec 2008, John Varela wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Except -- as you rightly point out in your other post -- Chrysler's > already had their bailout, and they blew it. Oh, no. They didn't blow it. They made lotsa bucks, paid back their loan, and now are back at the trough. US capital: maximize per unit profits. Stockholders rule (but only if they agree to speculate). To hel with the workers. To hel with long-term investments. To hel with the immortality of the limited liability corporation. And we can continue to build white- elephant pollutiong-providers 'til hel freezes over, because we have the US consumer trained to pay more and more. We know we can sell them any piece of junk, if we say it has class, power, and gives them the right to ride over anything else on the road. Oh, yes. If it makes a lot of noise. Insurance companies just back up the makers, because they can always increase everyone's premiums and kick back payments to the sellers. > On the face of it, limiting it to the other two this time round seems > fair. Pat Durkin: > To hel with the workers. To hel with long-term investments. To hel > with the immortality of the limited liability corporation. And we > can continue to build white- elephant pollutiong-providers 'til hel > freezes over... "Hel"? Is this a bowdlerization or what? SignatureMark Brader "Remember, this is Mark we're dealing with. Toronto Rationality and fact won't work very well." msb@vex.net -- Jeff Scott Franzman > Pat Durkin: >> To hel with the workers. To hel with long-term investments. To hel >> with the immortality of the limited liability corporation. And we >> can continue to build white- elephant pollutiong-providers 'til hel >> freezes over... > > "Hel"? Is this a bowdlerization or what? He doesn't want to disturb the Devi. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> Pat Durkin: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > He doesn't want to disturb the Devi. Nor should he: <http://www.asia.si.edu/devi/whoisdevi.htm> SignatureLes (BrE) > Pat Durkin: >> To hel with the workers. To hel with long-term investments. To hel [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "Hel"? Is this a bowdlerization or what? Just reading a bit of Icelandic. > Pat Durkin: >> To hel with the workers. To hel with long-term investments. To hel [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "Hel"? Is this a bowdlerization or what? We are approaching the season of No-L. SignatureDavid the Omrud filted: >> Pat Durkin: >>> To hel with the workers. To hel with long-term investments. To hel [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >We are approaching the season of No-L. But we're only halfway there....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >> Pat Durkin: >>> To hel with the workers. To hel with long-term investments. To hel [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > We are approaching the season of No-L. 'Pun my soul...what to do: wince or laugh? (Both, I think.) SignatureMaria C. >>> Pat Durkin: >>>> To hel with the workers. To hel with long-term investments. To hel [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > 'Pun my soul...what to do: wince or laugh? (Both, I think.) Lince? SignatureDavid >>>> Pat Durkin: >>>>> To hel with the workers. To hel with long-term investments. To hel [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Lince? Now you've upset Amethyst Deceiver. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> Pat Durkin: >>>> To hel with the workers. To hel with long-term investments. To hel [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >'Pun my soul...what to do: wince or laugh? (Both, I think.) Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, Maria. I feel the way you describe about global warming, the real possibility of a worldwide depression, the unnecessary battles between groups of people with different but similar religions, the reemergence of the Russian bear, the intractable political problems in the Middle East and the horrible cholera and other problems in Zimbabwe. When viewed all at once, the world's problems seem so insolvable and unbelievable, I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> On 06 Dec 2008, John Varela wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> On the face of it, limiting it to the other two this time round seems >> fair. Good grief, Pat, you're sounding even more pessimistic about Detroit than I did, yesterday. Mr Obama and friends will have to be less so, though, for some solution must be found, don't you agree? I wish I knew what to suggest or I'd email him. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of the >> afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go belly up, I think). > >All or none, I say. The government should not be in the position of >deciding which competitor is to live and which to die. I couldn't agree more, but what choice does the government have if unemployment is not to go absolutely through the roof? I suppose the car makers could be allowed to go bust, in the sense of Chapter 11 bankruptcy, but they must continue to make cars. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of >>> the afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go belly up, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > car makers could be allowed to go bust, in the sense of Chapter 11 > bankruptcy, but they must continue to make cars. OK, but who is going to buy those cars? We better make some more people -- people with money. SignatureSkitt (AmE) too old to help >>>> I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of >>>> the afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go belly up, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >OK, but who is going to buy those cars? We better make some more people -- >people with money. You need people with both mone, and a willingness to buy the cars. Detroit has been having trouble getting large numbers of people to buy its cars for several years now, and has made its profits on large SUVs and pickup trucks, mostly gas hogs. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>> I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of >>>>> the afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go belly up, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >people to buy its cars for several years now, and has made its >profits on large SUVs and pickup trucks, mostly gas hogs. I'm putting my mone on shares in mostly American companies. Sooner or later... SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >I'm putting my mone on shares in mostly American companies. Sooner or >later... "Live long and prosper." SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>I'm putting my mone on shares in mostly American companies. Sooner or >>later... > >"Live long and prosper." After looking at my portfolio's recent performance this morning, no one could live so long. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> I'm putting my mone on shares in mostly American companies. Sooner or >>> later... >> "Live long and prosper." > > After looking at my portfolio's recent performance this morning, no > one could live so long. My husband was telling me that he had read about a model based on the S&P Index, which had correctly predicted the sudden plunge of the Index in late 2008. That same model predicts a ten-fold increase in the same Index by the end of of 2010. So, if you're in the mood for a gamble... Fran >>>> I'm putting my mone on shares in mostly American companies. Sooner or >>>> later... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >So, if you're in the mood for a gamble... I'm in the mood for some reading and relaxation, Fran, not 16 hour work days. Making money takes too much energy. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of >>>> the afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go belly up, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >OK, but who is going to buy those cars? We better make some more people -- >people with money. No sh.t, Sherlock. Have you heard that Das Capital is the rage among French and German university kids just now? No one knows the answer, although I'll admit to getting a copy myself, on the chance old Karl did. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of >>>>> the afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go belly up, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > although I'll admit to getting a copy myself, on the chance old Karl > did. He did say something about Capitalism choking on its own effluent, >>>>>> I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of >>>>>> the afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go belly up, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >He did say something about Capitalism choking on its own effluent, Something like that must be why he is so popular with the college kids just now. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of >>>>> the afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go belly up, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >although I'll admit to getting a copy myself, on the chance old Karl >did. Let us know how may pages you get into it before you give up. Are you reading the original German version, "Das Kapital" or the English translation, "Capital"? Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > > I couldn't agree more, but what choice does the government have if > > unemployment is not to go absolutely through the roof? I suppose the > > car makers could be allowed to go bust, in the sense of Chapter 11 > > bankruptcy, but they must continue to make cars. > > OK, but who is going to buy those cars? If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than $20,000, I'll take one. SignatureSML >> > I couldn't agree more, but what choice does the government have if >> > unemployment is not to go absolutely through the roof? I suppose the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than >$20,000, I'll take one. Dream on, Sara. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than > >$20,000, I'll take one. > > Dream on, Sara. I know, I know. When our car was almost totaled this year I did some shopping around, hoping we could get a replacement. What I want does not exist. SignatureSML >> >If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than >> >$20,000, I'll take one. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >shopping around, hoping we could get a replacement. What I want does not >exist. What I'd like to see is a General Motors' electric version of the original VW, suitable for everyone at a price everyone in the world who is serious about owning a car can afford. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >What I'd like to see is a General Motors' electric version of the >original VW, suitable for everyone at a price everyone in the world >who is serious about owning a car can afford. You could call it a "People's Car", nicht wahr?...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Chuck Riggs filted: >> What I'd like to see is a General Motors' electric version of the >> original VW, suitable for everyone at a price everyone in the world >> who is serious about owning a car can afford. > > You could call it a "People's Car", nicht wahr?...r Jawohl, but somebody powerful has to command for it to be made. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> Chuck Riggs filted: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Jawohl, but somebody powerful has to command for it to be made. That's why Congress is going to give us a Car Czar. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>> Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >That's why Congress is going to give us a Car Czar. America needs one. In the meantime, Congress, the Big Three, Nancy Pelosi, Mr Obama or whoever is in charge of American car production needs to act fast, for I heard on the news last night that the Chinese have just put what may become the next People's Car on the market. GM and the rest do consider the world market, don't they? Sometimes I wonder. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> Chuck Riggs filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >needs to act fast, for I heard on the news last night that the Chinese >have just put what may become the next People's Car on the market. >GM and the rest do consider the world market, don't they? Sometimes I >wonder. This a something of a simplification, but GM designs and makes cars to fit local (national and regional) markets. GM (US) makes models for the American market, the GM subsidiaries Opel and Vauxhall for the European and UK markets, GM Holden for the Australian and NZ markets, and so on. Ditto for Ford. By contras, the Japanese design and make models to be sold worldwide. I see that GM does make and sell cars based on European models using the Saturn brand name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Corporation Saturns are now virtually identical to certain Opel models. For example, the 2008 Saturn Vue is a rebadged Opel Antara, while the Opel GT is based on the Saturn Sky. The Opel Astra is imported as the Saturn Astra (replacing the Ion as the entry-level car), and the Saturn Aura is similar to the Opel Vectra. The Saturn Astra is built in Antwerp, Belgium. .... In US Congressional hearings on December 2nd, 2008, General Motors announced its intentions to only focus on four core brands (Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, Cadillac), with the sale, consolidation, or closure of Saturn... SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >By contras, the Japanese design and make models to be sold worldwide. What do right-wing Nicaraguan militias have to do with Japanese car companies? Consider, for example, the history of the Honda Accord, which has (at various times) had different designs current in Japan, North America, and Europe. The North American Accord (G8) is made in Ohio and Mexico for the domestic market, and in Thailand for Southeast Asia and Australia. The Japanese/European Accord (also G8) is assembled in Japan and China for the worldwide market (it's sold as the Acura TSX in North America and the Accord Euro in Australia). -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>>>> Chuck Riggs filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >By contras, the Japanese design and make models to be sold worldwide. That may depend. I saw Toyota Yarises in Europe long before I saw any in the USA. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>>> Chuck Riggs filted: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >That may depend. I saw Toyota Yarises in Europe long before I saw >any in the USA. Thinks... Do we foreigners consider the USA to be part of "worldwide", or is it another planet that somehow become attached to Earth? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>By contras, the Japanese design and make models to be sold worldwide. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Thinks... Do we foreigners consider the USA to be part of "worldwide", or is >it another planet that somehow become attached to Earth? I certainly consider it part of "world wide". (It appears that for you I am a "foreigner".) Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * <snip> >Thinks... Do we foreigners consider the USA to be part of "worldwide", or is >it another planet that somehow become attached to Earth? If the USA is not part of the world to Europeans, Australians, Asians and Africans, it may be because they realize news from their regions is under-represented in American newspapers and TV news reports, compared to news about America. Largely because of geography, Americans are concerned primarily about America and they always have been from what I know of American history. As I see the two countries I'm a citizen of, America may be even more insular than Ireland in its outlook. James Joyce left Ireland, I have read, because of his indignation with the insular outlook of the populace. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland <snip> >This a something of a simplification, but GM designs and makes cars to fit >local (national and regional) markets. GM (US) makes models for the American >market, the GM subsidiaries Opel and Vauxhall for the European and UK markets, >GM Holden for the Australian and NZ markets, and so on. Ditto for Ford. > >By contras, the Japanese design and make models to be sold worldwide. As only a casual observer of the scene, I'd say the Japanese approach makes far better economic sense. <snip> SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >As only a casual observer of the scene, I'd say the Japanese approach >makes far better economic sense. Nissan seemed to think the 350 Z was a chick car...in-country they called it the "Fairlady"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Nissan seemed to think the 350 Z was a chick car...in-country they called it > the > "Fairlady". The Datsun 240Z was called the Fairlady in Japan and its descendants evidently still are. http://www.japan-partner.com/auction/Nissan/Fairlady+Z/cars-for- sale.html SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Nissan seemed to think the 350 Z was a chick car...in-country they called it the > "Fairlady"....r Seem to remember my son's Datsun 210 being called a Honeybee. >>>> Chuck Riggs filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >GM and the rest do consider the world market, don't they? Sometimes I >wonder. GM has always cosnsiderd the world market. They've made German Opels for many, many years. And the Australian Holden ("Holden" was the code name of the Corvair until it was ready to be marketed). GM also holds large joint operations with some Chinese firms. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>> Chuck Riggs filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >marketed). GM also holds large joint operations with some Chinese >firms. GM once built Simcas at the car plant in Poissy, just down the road from my family's house in France. The plant, now owned by Peugeot/Citroen, was built by Ford in the 1930s. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>>> Chuck Riggs filted: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >from my family's house in France. The plant, now owned by >Peugeot/Citroen, was built by Ford in the 1930s. I suspect that AUE's Maria, who resides in the auto industrial centre of America, may be most concerned about where the Big Three build their next generation of cars, whereas I'm most concerned about who will buy them. Without a product the world wants and can afford, I fear for the life of the US automobile industry. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >> Chuck Riggs filted: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > That's why Congress is going to give us a Car Czar. Yeah, 'cause that worked SO well last time... I googled "czar appointed" and got these czars on the first page: Energy Czar Car Czar Microsoft Green Czar Emergency Medicine Czar Risk Czar (Morgan Stanley) AIDS Czar (San Francisco) Drug Czar ...ah, finally: there's the one I was thinking of. A bit of history: guardian.co.uk, Friday 11 May 2001 01.28 BST "President George Bush tried to reinvigorate America's controversial "war on drugs" yesterday by appointing a hardliner to the position of "drug czar", defying critics' claims that imprisonment and military action are failing to stop the spread of narcotics." And here we are seven and a half years later living in such a wondrous drug-free world. Let's do that for cars, too! "When science is on your side, argue the science. When the law is on your side, argue the law. When neither science nor the law is on your side, issue a press release." Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- "An idealist is one who,on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make a better soup." -- H.L.Mencken >> Chuck Riggs filted: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Jawohl, but somebody powerful has to command for it to be made. Yes. First "He who must not be mentioned" and then Major Ivan Hirst of the British Army. Immediately post-WWII: http://www.ukcar.com/history/Volkswagen/index.html ...the British Army took over the factory. The British were interested in the factory, because they needed a form of light transportation: The factory was brought back up Under the guidance of Major Ivan Hirst of the British Army production restarted and by the end of 1945, more than 2000 cars had left the factory. Most of them were produced from spare parts that were left in the factory. Within a year, the factory had produced over 10,000 cars, all thanks to assistance from the British government. Sometime after 1945, the company was named Volkswagen by the British Army of Occupation, who also renamed the town at the factory "Wolfsburg", taken from the name of a local castle. The British Army sought to give control of the company to able hands: The Ford Motor company turned the offer down because it thought it would be a waste of money. The French government refused. The now long defunct British Rootes Group evaluated the Car and then rejected it as simply too awful to sell. At this point you couldn't give VW away. In 1949, the British government happily relinquished control of the company to the German government. .... Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#1945:_British_Army.2C_Major_Ivan_Hirst.2 C_unclear_future or http://tinyurl.com/anj7r SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Sometime after 1945, the company was named Volkswagen by the British Army > of Occupation, The history I'm reading says the company was named Gesellschaft zur Vorbereitung des Deutschen Volkswagens GmbH in 1938. > who also renamed the town at the factory "Wolfsburg", taken > from the name of a local castle. The name was changed because the town had been called KdF-Stadt, the KdF for Kraft durch Freude (Strength through Joy -- it sounds better in German), a Nazi program for the people which included things like vacation cruises and other pleasurable activities. Although the company was called "Volkswagen", the car was at first called the KdF-Wagen. The car was referred to as "der Volkwagen", though, or simply "the people's car", but that was descriptive, not its actual name; think of it as "der volkswagen" to avoid the problem of the capital "V". > The British Army sought to give control of the company to able hands: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#1945:_British_Army.2C_Major_Ivan_Hirst.2 C_unclear_future >or http://tinyurl.com/anj7r That's where I copped my info from. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> >If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than >>> >$20,000, I'll take one. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > original VW, suitable for everyone at a price everyone in the world > who is serious about owning a car can afford. India is already doing it with a $2000 car. >>>> >If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than >>>> >$20,000, I'll take one. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >India is already doing it with a $2000 car. $2500. http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/10/tata-motors-2-500-nano-automobile-gets-official/ It's not importable to the USA. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>> >If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than >>>> >$20,000, I'll take one. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >India is already doing it with a $2000 car. Tell me, would you buy an Indian car? With global warming firmly in mind, the real winner will be an electric car everyone is willing to buy, drive and maintain, it seems to me. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> >If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than >>>>> >$20,000, I'll take one. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > mind, the real winner will be an electric car everyone is willing to > buy, drive and maintain, it seems to me. Sorry for giving the impression that india is producing a $2000 electric car, it is gasoline powered car that they have started to market. Th electric car would be the ideal solution to a lot of problems, both economic and environmental. >>>>>> >If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than >>>>>> >$20,000, I'll take one. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Th electric car would be the ideal solution to a lot of problems, >both economic and environmental. Only if the costs, both economic and environmental, of generating, distributing and using the electricity are more acceptable than the costs of the existing technology. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>>> >If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than >>>>>>> >$20,000, I'll take one. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >distributing and using the electricity are more acceptable than the costs of >the existing technology. Until they find a way to make a battery that will hold enough charge to take an electric car on a long trip, say from San Francisco to Los Angeles or Cleveland to Chicago, they will remain impractical for long trips. On-the-road charging stops are extremely impractical. I once did a rough calculation that indicated that were the cars in the LA basin replaced by electrics it would take about ten big new power plants just to provide the energy to recharge them all. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> Th electric car would be the ideal solution to a lot of problems, >>> both economic and environmental. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > remain impractical for long trips. On-the-road charging stops are > extremely impractical. ... and that ain't the half of it (read on). > I once did a rough calculation that indicated that were the cars > in the LA basin replaced by electrics it would take about ten big > new power plants just to provide the energy to recharge them all. It all comes down to the old truth that you don't get something for nothing. SignatureSkitt (AmE) damn ethanol >>>> Th electric car would be the ideal solution to a lot of problems, >>>> both economic and environmental. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >It all comes down to the old truth that you don't get something for nothing. No offense, Alec, but is it a truth or a truism? How often do people lean back for a minute and think about what they are saying when they wisely say, "You don't get something for nothing"? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > "Skitt" wrote: >>>>> Th electric car would be the ideal solution to a lot of problems, >>>>> both economic and environmental. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > lean back for a minute and think about what they are saying when they > wisely say, "You don't get something for nothing"? Let's settle on "fact". A true fact, even. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> "Skitt" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Let's settle on "fact". A true fact, even. OK, but I prefer True Lies, mainly because I'm in love with Jamie Lee Curtis. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>>>> >If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than >>>>>>>> >$20,000, I'll take one. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > in the LA basin replaced by electrics it would take about ten big > new power plants just to provide the energy to recharge them all. This where Blacklight may come into its own. > I once did a rough calculation that indicated that were the cars > in the LA basin replaced by electrics it would take about ten big > new power plants just to provide the energy to recharge them all. With all the NIMBY problems that go with new power plants. Right now in Northern Virginia we have a NIMBY problem not with anything so intrusive as a power plant, but with power lines. the electric company wants to bring more high tension lines into this area, but to do so they need to thread their lines somehow through the Virginia hunt country up around Middleburg and the plutocrats up there are having none of it. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> I once did a rough calculation that indicated that were the cars >> in the LA basin replaced by electrics it would take about ten big [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Virginia hunt country up around Middleburg and the plutocrats up there >are having none of it. There used to be a fine restaurant in Middleburg that specialized in roast duck with orange sauce. Is it still there, John, or do you know the one I mean? I've eaten there at least a dozen times. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > There used to be a fine restaurant in Middleburg that specialized in > roast duck with orange sauce. Is it still there, John, or do you know > the one I mean? I've eaten there at least a dozen times. Jeez I thought that when you lived in Virginia you were just plain poor folks from Vienna sneering at the rich dilettante city folk from McLean, not someone who went out to fancy restaurants in the horse country. Now we know. Duck a l'orange indeed. I'm unfamiliar with restaurants in those parts; the only one I've heard of is The Inn at Little Washington, which I can't afford, though now that you make me think of it, that might be a place to take my wife for our 50th anniversary next April, what the hell. The Inn at Little Washington is generally rated one of the best in the country, if not the world. http://www.theinnatlittlewashington.com/recognition.asp SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> There used to be a fine restaurant in Middleburg that specialized in >> roast duck with orange sauce. Is it still there, John, or do you know [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >http://www.theinnatlittlewashington.com/recognition.asp No, I was thinking of the Red Fox Inn, also known as the Middleburg Inn: http://www.redfox.com/history.html Unless it has changed dramatically, it is a charming place with excellent food and attentive waiters. Since you'll only have one 50th anniversary, I suggest you splurge and take your wife and yourself there. It will be an evening to remember, I am sure. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>>> >If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than >>>>>>> >$20,000, I'll take one. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >distributing and using the electricity are more acceptable than the costs of >the existing technology. For forty-some years I've been saying that what the world most needs is an abundance of cheap electricity. Add finding solutions to global warming to feeding and housing the poor and, today, nuclear power and solar energy look even better. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> >If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than >>> >$20,000, I'll take one. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >original VW, suitable for everyone at a price everyone in the world >who is serious about owning a car can afford. I don't think that people who are really serious about cars would want such a vehicle. People who are serious about cars don't buy them just to get from A to B. You can do that cheaper by bus or bicycle. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England Robin Bignall filted: >>What I'd like to see is a General Motors' electric version of the >>original VW, suitable for everyone at a price everyone in the world [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >such a vehicle. People who are serious about cars don't buy them just >to get from A to B. You can do that cheaper by bus or bicycle. If you don't mind taking three to five times as long to make the journey....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Robin Bignall filted: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > If you don't mind taking three to five times as long to make the journey....r I believe I can get to work by taking a series of buses, plus walking maybe two or three miles. It might not even take five times what it takes me to drive. However, because I teach in the evenings, I couldn't get home till the next morning. I'm not sure I'm capable of bicycling from home to work. I'd certainly prefer not to in the dark with a temperature below freezing. (Cue cycling stories.) -- Jerry Friedman >> Robin Bignall filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >certainly prefer not to in the dark with a temperature below >freezing. (Cue cycling stories.) Exactly. Until America makes a better one, the new electric car from China could be ideal for you. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> >If they'll make a hybrid minivan with a good safety record for less than >>>> >$20,000, I'll take one. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >such a vehicle. People who are serious about cars don't buy them just >to get from A to B. You can do that cheaper by bus or bicycle. A and B are not always located on the bus or train routes and I assume you know the limitations of bicycles as well as I do. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > I don't think that people who are really serious about cars would want > such a vehicle. People who are serious about cars don't buy them just > to get from A to B. You can do that cheaper by bus or bicycle. Really? The last time I took the family 3 miles by bus it cost over 8 quid. If I have a car at all, it is almost always cheaper to take the car. And I don't fancy taking a family of 4 on holiday by bus or bicycle. And Beeching closed the railways to many of the places I want to visit. SignatureWaterways route planning website: http://canalplan.org.uk >> I don't think that people who are really serious about cars would want >> such a vehicle. People who are serious about cars don't buy them just [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >bicycle. And Beeching closed the railways to many of the places I want >to visit. My tongue was a little in cheek. The Daily Mail (I think it was) did an experiment many years ago when train fares were still reasonable. They compared the total travel cost of taking a family of four on holiday to Scotland from London by car and by train. They bought a second-hand car (with an MOT) big enough for four, taxed and insured it, drove it to Scotland and back, sold it and cashed the tax and insurance in for the number of whole months left. They saved a great deal over the cost of even third class rail tickets. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> I don't think that people who are really serious about cars would want >>> such a vehicle. People who are serious about cars don't buy them just [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > number of whole months left. They saved a great deal over the cost of > even third class rail tickets. Ah. I've clearly spent too long hanging around the sort of anti-car fanatics who say things like that not only with a straight face, but entirely seriously. SignatureWaterways route planning website: http://canalplan.org.uk > What I'd like to see is a General Motors' electric version of the > original VW, suitable for everyone at a price everyone in the world > who is serious about owning a car can afford. I've never seen the appeal in VWs. They're so cramped. Cute, yes, but that's not enough for me. SignatureSML Sara wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:34:02 -0800: >> What I'd like to see is a General Motors' electric version of >> the original VW, suitable for everyone at a price everyone in >> the world who is serious about owning a car can afford. > I've never seen the appeal in VWs. They're so cramped. Cute, > yes, but that's not enough for me. Without casting aspersions, it might depend on your size. Without luggage, Beetles and New Beetles weren't bad for four people. When we rented them in Europe in the 60s, with the back seat folded, there was luggage room for two. There were some strange things like windshield washers operated by compressed air but they were fun and got up Alpine passes much better than Citroen 2CVs. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Sara wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:34:02 -0800: > > I've never seen the appeal in VWs. They're so cramped. Cute, > > yes, but that's not enough for me. > > Without casting aspersions, it might depend on your size. 5' 10" and thin (although not as skinny as I was last time I was in a VW). I've never driven one, just been a passenger. SignatureSML >> Sara wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:34:02 -0800: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >5' 10" and thin (although not as skinny as I was last time I was in a >VW). I've never driven one, just been a passenger. When I bought my used 1960 Beetle I was 6'-1" (I've shrunk to 6' even as I've aged)and I have long legs, but I never had any problems with front seat leg room. But the best legroom I ever had was my 1964 Porsceh 356C. I could push the seat back far enough I couldn't reach the pedals at all. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> What I'd like to see is a General Motors' electric version of the >> original VW, suitable for everyone at a price everyone in the world >> who is serious about owning a car can afford. > > I've never seen the appeal in VWs. They're so cramped. Cute, yes, but > that's not enough for me. Presumably you mean Beetles? VW make many cars - one of them is so big I could just about get my Jag in the boot. But I think it costs about £90k. I learned to drive in a Beetle. Very easy to drive. But Dad had to go to work in it during the day so I took my test in a Mini which I'd only driven twice before. Passed though. SignatureDavid in a Hilton > > I've never seen the appeal in VWs. They're so cramped. Cute, yes, but > > that's not enough for me. > > Presumably you mean Beetles? I do. My son calles them "Buggies" which I knew was wrong, but I couldn't think of the right word. SignatureSML the wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:51:13 +0000: >>> What I'd like to see is a General Motors' electric version >>> of the original VW, suitable for everyone at a price >>> everyone in the world who is serious about owning a car can afford. >> >> I've never seen the appeal in VWs. They're so cramped. Cute, yes, but >> that's not enough for me. > Presumably you mean Beetles? VW make many cars - one of them is so > big I could just about get my Jag in the boot. But I > think it costs about £90k. That's the fat one isn't it? Unless you look carefully it's hard to distinguish from a Passat. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > the wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:51:13 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That's the fat one isn't it? Unless you look carefully it's hard to > distinguish from a Passat. VW Phaeton - I thought it was quite a lot bigger than the Passat. It is however a close sibling to the Bentley Continental, but that's even more expensive. SignatureDavid the wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:05:20 GMT: >> the wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:51:13 +0000: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> That's the fat one isn't it? Unless you look carefully it's >> hard to distinguish from a Passat. > VW Phaeton - I thought it was quite a lot bigger than the > Passat. It is however a close sibling to the Bentley > Continental, but that's even more expensive. The Phaeton is hard to distinguish unless you have a Passat to compare for size. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > I learned to drive in a Beetle. Very easy to drive. As long as you knew the secret to how to get it into reverse. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. John wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:00:02 -0500: >> I learned to drive in a Beetle. Very easy to drive. > As long as you knew the secret to how to get it into reverse. And, in earlier models how to get into low gear without stopping. How many forward gears did it have? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > John wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:00:02 -0500: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And, in earlier models how to get into low gear without stopping. How > many forward gears did it have? Four, I think. This was 1973. I'm perfectly capable of double declutching - I still do it occasionally when driving a manual gearbox. I had to take Wife's car to collect the Christmas tree last weekend, and I noticed myself doing it then. SignatureDavid the wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:19:49 GMT: >> John wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:00:02 -0500: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> And, in earlier models how to get into low gear without >> stopping. How many forward gears did it have? > Four, I think. This was 1973. I'm perfectly capable of > double declutching - I still do it occasionally when driving a > manual gearbox. I am tempted to say that I know how to chip flints too. Actually, I did know how to once. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >> John wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:00:02 -0500: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I had to take Wife's car to collect the Christmas tree last weekend, and >I noticed myself doing it then. I once had my clutch cable break while driving my 1960 Beetle on Louisville's Watterson Expressway. I was able to double clutch through the gears and drive on to the dealership. The only problem was that I didn't dare actually stop, so careful timing was needed at traffic signals. One time I quickly did a right turn into the parking lot of a drive-in restaurant and circled the building unitl the signal cahnged to green. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> John wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:00:02 -0500: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >turn into the parking lot of a drive-in restaurant and circled >the building unitl the signal cahnged to green. Circa 1960/70s, British Fords (Anglias and Cortinas) were extremely good at allowing you to change gear without using (or having use of) the clutch. Having learned the skill of double-declutching on a 1954 Ford (3-speed, no synchromesh on 1st), and I still do it to this day. Obviously, having full synchromesh, today's cars are pretty forgiving of inaccuracies. However, I do note that modern cars are reluctant to allow you do clutchless changes (not that I often try to). The skill of being able to drive a car with the clutch disabled (in the engaged position) can be very useful. Starting off is easy. You must have engine switched off, engage first gear, and turn the starter key. The initial acceleration is quite impressive. To stop, you must knock the gear into neutral, brake to a standstill, then switch off. It is easy to forget this. Sheer habit makes you want to press the clutch pedal as usual, and the obvious disastrous consequences can follow. SignatureIan > I once had my clutch cable break while driving my 1960 Beetle on > Louisville's Watterson Expressway. The clutch cable of my 1960 beetle broke just as I was coasting into a parking spot in back of our apartment house. Whew. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of the > afflicted companies (Chrysler could be allowed to go belly up, I think). > >> 6. Wal-mart should also do some rethinking. > > Hmm. Maybe. Walmart could afford to buy the three Detroit automakers. I'm just sayin'. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >> I suppose, we really have no choice but to bail out at least two of the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I'm just sayin'. "afford" ain't the issue. I could afford to buy UK Woolworth's, but I might find myself in difficulty on the following day. SignatureDavid >4. Opinion: Those who want the American car companies to go belly-up are >being very foolish. The domino effect comes to mind -- suppliers and >dealers will fold. Local businesses currently patronized by workers will >have a big drop in sales. Houses will be repossesed. Taxes paid will be >less. I'm in agreement with you, Maria. The upper management doesn't deserve protection, but the fall-out of additional loss of jobs in that area would affect the entire country. Those local businesses have suppliers that are not local, and pay bills to firms that are all across the country. The only thing that I ask is an end to upper management bonuses and incentives beyond a reasonable salary. Let the people who set the strategies that are failing feel the pain. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>4. Opinion: Those who want the American car companies to go belly-up are >>being very foolish. The domino effect comes to mind -- suppliers and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >incentives beyond a reasonable salary. Let the people who set the >strategies that are failing feel the pain. Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the big three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, reliable cars, let them fail as quickly as possible. While they are shutting down, the US government could incentivize Toyota, Honda and others to take over the physical plants and, if they want them, the American auto workers to go with them, soon to churn out cars that Americans want. The impact on American unemployment could be minimal. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the big >three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, reliable cars, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >workers to go with them, soon to churn out cars that Americans want. >The impact on American unemployment could be minimal. Two of the big three do make cars which compete successfully with the Japanese makes. These successful models are made and sold in Europe. Ford and Vauxhall (GM) models are at the top of the sales league tables. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the big >>three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, reliable cars, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > makes. These successful models are made and sold in Europe. Ford and Vauxhall > (GM) models are at the top of the sales league tables. Too many people seem to be ignoring the fact that *ALL* car sales in the US have dropped, not just those of the big three US makers. Here are some figures from the Wall Street Journal: http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html Fran >>>Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the big >>>three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, reliable cars, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html Indeed. The same is true in the UK. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the big >>>three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, reliable cars, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html Very true, Fran, but when the going gets tough the tough get going. The worldwide depression, if it comes to that, is going to weed out many companies. The Big Three have to fight, which is to say they have to be smart, to make sure they are not among them. I am opposes to using our tax money to hold their hands, for where would it stop? KMart and Google, being well run companies, are weathering the storm and don't need their hands held. Even if they fail, some other company will hop in there to take their place. That is the glory of capitalism, as you know better than I do, so I needn't preach to the choir. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the big >>three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, reliable cars, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >makes. These successful models are made and sold in Europe. Ford and Vauxhall >(GM) models are at the top of the sales league tables. That's quite true. While the American Big Three corporations are whining at the public trough, their foreign subsidiaries, in fact separate companies, are doing quite well. GM is even doing well in China. Even if the Detroit Big Three went under those foreign subsidiaries would probably coninue going strong. Who knows, they might even open assembly plants in Tennessee... Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the big >> three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, reliable [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Ford and Vauxhall (GM) models are at the top of the sales league > tables. ISTR you're a Corsanaut like me. Looking around, I get the impresh that this fine little motor has become something like the standard "mini" in the UK. I quiver with merriment at the thought of Americans having to get used to them! For scale, US viewers may tune to: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://bp0.blogger.com/_zbjqMnpFubQ/RgoiP js6F2I/AAAAAAAABj4/85vrK1O_3g4/s400/corsa1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sandeepmakam.blo gspot.com/2007/03/vauxhall-corsa.html&usg=__1Q4uPOSuS0_249lfNCp7AyoKfYc=&h=285&w =400&sz=22&hl=en&start=391&tbnid=CQRjRU3kPagbDM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3 Fq%3Dvauxhall%2Bcorsa%26start%3D380%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN or http://tinyurl.com/6phutc SignatureMike. > ISTR you're a Corsanaut like me. Looking around, I get the impresh that > this fine little motor has become something like the standard "mini" in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > or > http://tinyurl.com/6phutc We bought Daughter one of them when she got her summer job placement a few years ago. The car, not the sledgehammer or the muscle-woman, and definitely not a new one - V-reg and still doing good service. SignatureDavid >>Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the big >>three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, reliable cars, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >makes. These successful models are made and sold in Europe. Ford and Vauxhall >(GM) models are at the top of the sales league tables. True enough. Have they misjudged what Americans want, for they're nearly broke? Another factor that can't be forgotten is global warming. No matter what Americans want, they must be weaned off gas guzzlers. What if the Big Three got behind electric cars in a big way? Cars that could eventually be sold worldwide, once the power grids are set up for it, would be a winner. Charging stations and power grids would need improvement in some parts of the world, but not all that much would be needed for America to make the switch, if the motivation was there. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >Another factor that can't be forgotten is global warming. No matter >what Americans want, they must be weaned off gas guzzlers. What if the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >improvement in some parts of the world, but not all that much would be >needed for America to make the switch, if the motivation was there. Switching to electric cars would certainly reduce greenhouse gas emissions - from cars. However, the electricity has to be generated somehow. In large parts of the world that means oil-fired power stations unless we are prepared to accept the risks of a world-wide switch to nuclear-powered electricity generation. (Some places might be able to use hydroelectric generation, others tidal stream generation, but that would not be the case for most of the world.) Opting for nuclear power carries the risk of a proliferation of nuclear weapons of various types. It might well be that the overall effects of the use of nuclear weapons by rogue states or rogue groups would be substantially less damaging to human beings as a whole than would be the overall effects of harmful climate change. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> Another factor that can't be forgotten is global warming. No matter >> what Americans want, they must be weaned off gas guzzlers. What if the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > tidal stream generation, but that would not be the case for most of the > world.) Some perspective: There is more CO2 produced by coal mine fires in China alone than by all the automobiles and light trucks in the USA. http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20030215coalenviro4p4.asp SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > Peter Duncanson (BrE): >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20030215coalenviro4p4.asp Yabbut... that may be ignored unless we find a way to make that CO2 business in China the fault of the Americans. Let me think.... Americans buy lots of stuff from China. If we didn't, they wouldn't need all that coal. Simple. It's our fault. SignatureMaria, tongue in cheek (though some may not think so). >>> Another factor that can't be forgotten is global warming. No matter >>> what Americans want, they must be weaned off gas guzzlers. What if the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20030215coalenviro4p4.asp With their air reaching the point where it is nearly unbreatheable around Beijing, their motivation to switch to other forms of energy must be pretty high. Do they have plans for the construction of nuclear reactors? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> Another factor that can't be forgotten is global warming. No matter >>>> what Americans want, they must be weaned off gas guzzlers. What if the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > must be pretty high. Do they have plans for the construction of > nuclear reactors? These are underground fires in coal mines. They are almost impossible to put out. The cited article says, "One coal fire in northern China, for instance, is burning over an area more than 3,000 miles wide and almost 450 miles long." (I accept no responsibility for width being greater than length in that quotation.) SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>>>> Another factor that can't be forgotten is global warming. No matter >>>>> what Americans want, they must be weaned off gas guzzlers. What if the [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >almost 450 miles long." (I accept no responsibility for width being >greater than length in that quotation.) I'm no coal miner, but could they not bomb them from on high? With big enough bombs, surely they'd be extinguished. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >These are underground fires in coal mines. They are almost impossible > >to put out. The cited article says, "One coal fire in northern China, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'm no coal miner, but could they not bomb them from on high? With big > enough bombs, surely they'd be extinguished. You'd probably kill more than a few people, though. Not that worth- while. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>>> Another factor that can't be forgotten is global warming. No matter >>>>> what Americans want, they must be weaned off gas guzzlers. What if the [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >almost 450 miles long." (I accept no responsibility for width being >greater than length in that quotation.) We have underground coal fires in the USA, too, you know. for instance, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> These are underground fires in coal mines. They are almost impossible >> to put out. The cited article says, "One coal fire in northern China, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > We have underground coal fires in the USA, too, you know. for > instance, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania I know. The point was that marginal improvements in the combustion efficiency of US cars (by, say, transferring the combustion from the insides of the car engines to oil or coal burning electric generating stations) are a drop in the bucket compared to the really big sources of CO2. That's why the whole hoo-hah over hybrid vehicles is a farce. Not to mention that the day will come when everyone will be moaning about the toxic waste disposal problems created by all those batteries. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>> These are underground fires in coal mines. They are almost impossible >>> to put out. The cited article says, "One coal fire in northern China, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >mention that the day will come when everyone will be moaning about the >toxic waste disposal problems created by all those batteries. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> These are underground fires in coal mines. They are almost impossible >>> to put out. The cited article says, "One coal fire in northern China, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >mention that the day will come when everyone will be moaning about the >toxic waste disposal problems created by all those batteries. You can bury toxic battery waste where it is out of harm's way. Burying carbon effluent is impractical. Up with electric, not hybrid, cars, supported by clean, safe nuclear energy. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >That's why the whole hoo-hah over hybrid vehicles is a farce. Not to > >mention that the day will come when everyone will be moaning about the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Burying carbon effluent is impractical. Up with electric, not hybrid, > cars, supported by clean, safe nuclear energy. If I had an electric car it would be run by hydropower, a thought which leads to a pleasantly absurd image... SignatureSML >> >That's why the whole hoo-hah over hybrid vehicles is a farce. Not to >> >mention that the day will come when everyone will be moaning about the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >If I had an electric car it would be run by hydropower, a thought which >leads to a pleasantly absurd image... Not to throw cold water on the idea, but almost all hydropower available is already being used. Not generally realized is the fact that hydropower is not renewable energy. All dams are subject to eventual siltation and at some point in the process will become impractical for power generation. They will also lose their flood control usage. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > >If I had an electric car it would be run by hydropower, a thought which > >leads to a pleasantly absurd image... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > at some point in the process will become impractical for power > generation. They will also lose their flood control usage. On further reflection, I think my energy comes from wind power. It was hydro, but we pay a little bit extra to get the renewable energy flowing through the pipes to our outlets instead. Or something like that. SignatureSML >> >If I had an electric car it would be run by hydropower, a thought which >> >leads to a pleasantly absurd image... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >hydro, but we pay a little bit extra to get the renewable energy flowing >through the pipes to our outlets instead. Or something like that. Wind power also has an intrinsic problem that seems to be rarely talked about. Because the wind can die down, and sometimes die down over an entire region, the only way to ensure the availbiltiy of electricity at those times is to have some other sort of power generation available. Basically, for every kilowatt of wind generating capacity you must have a kilowatt of backup source. This means that to have wind power you must pay double for generating plant. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> >If I had an electric car it would be run by hydropower, a thought which >>> >leads to a pleasantly absurd image... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >source. This means that to have wind power you must pay double >for generating plant. Or, of course, some better way of *storing* power. The best we can do at the moment on any large scale is "pumped storage", which involves pumping water up mountains at times of low demand, and running it down again through generators at peak times. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>>> >If I had an electric car it would be run by hydropower, a thought which >>>> >leads to a pleasantly absurd image... [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >pumping water up mountains at times of low demand, and running it down >again through generators at peak times. If you use pump storage, then you must have enough energy being generated to (a) supply electricity to your arket, and (b) supply electricity to the pumps for storage, so you still have to install twice hte generating capacity. Pump storage is usually used for load balancing, not for supplying energy when the main plant is off-line. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>> >If I had an electric car it would be run by hydropower, a thought which >>>> >leads to a pleasantly absurd image... [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >pumping water up mountains at times of low demand, and running it down >again through generators at peak times. It is a fine plan, as long as you live in the valley as families often do. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> >If I had an electric car it would be run by hydropower, a thought which >> >leads to a pleasantly absurd image... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >hydro, but we pay a little bit extra to get the renewable energy flowing >through the pipes to our outlets instead. Or something like that. That's another good, not impractical, idea, Sara. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > Not generally realized is the fact that hydropower is not > renewable energy. All dams are subject to eventual siltation and > at some point in the process will become impractical for power > generation. They will also lose their flood control usage. Didn't FDR want to dam the Bay of Fundy and get power from the tides going in both directions? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Not generally realized is the fact that hydropower is not >> renewable energy. All dams are subject to eventual siltation and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Didn't FDR want to dam the Bay of Fundy and get power from the tides >going in both directions? Where the geography is suitable it is possible to extract energy from existing "tidal streams" without having to dam anything. There is a pilot project in operation about 25 miles from me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaGen SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> If I had an electric car it would be run by hydropower, a thought >> which leads to a pleasantly absurd image... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > at some point in the process will become impractical for power > generation. They will also lose their flood control usage. The dams may need maintenance, desilting or rebuilding eventually. Nothing lasts forever. The generators will need rewiring and maintenance too. But that doesn't make the hydro energy non-renewable. As long as rain still falls on the high ground, the energy will keep on being renewed. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > As long as > rain still falls on the high ground, the energy will keep on being > renewed. ObAUE: Didn't some famous person or other have something to say about the conservation of energy? That idea of "renewing" energy irks me. It sounds like somebody is reducing the amount of entropy in the universe. Energy stored in a reservoir should be said to be replenished, not renewed. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 06:30:04 -0500, John Holmes wrote >(in article <49439d1e$2@dnews.tpgi.com.au>): [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >universe. Energy stored in a reservoir should be said to be >replenished, not renewed. But not everyone is a thermodynamicist. As dear old Cyril Hinshelwood used to say, or should have, change is all. SignaturePaul > But not everyone is a thermodynamicist. As dear old Cyril Hinshelwood > used to say, or should have, change is all. Rather uncommon name, Hinshelwood (at least to me). I used to work with a guy with that last name. He was from Jamaica. SignatureMaria >Paul Wolff wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Rather uncommon name, Hinshelwood (at least to me). I used to work with >a guy with that last name. He was from Jamaica. I only ever met Cyril of that family. He wore tweeds, lectured on the theory of steam engines and rates of chemical reactions between gases, and made everything so simple that even I could understand it. From that position, it was difficult to see why he should have won a Nobel Prize for his work. SignaturePaul >> Paul Wolff wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that position, it was difficult to see why he should have won a Nobel > Prize for his work. People who can explain things so well that even complicated matters are easy to comprehend are real gems. However, I don't know if that ability is Nobel fodder. (I've yet to understand how certain things qualify for a Nobel prize. Maybe your Mr. Hinshelwood could explain it.) SignatureMaria C. >>> Paul Wolff wrote: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >is Nobel fodder. (I've yet to understand how certain things qualify for >a Nobel prize. Maybe your Mr. Hinshelwood could explain it.) See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Norman_Hinshelwood Wikipedia also knows about seven other HInshelwoods: four English footballers, two rugby players and a poet. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>> Paul Wolff wrote: >>>>> But not everyone is a thermodynamicist. As dear old Cyril >>>>> Hinshelwood used to say, or should have, change is all. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Wikipedia also knows about seven other HInshelwoods: four English > footballers, two rugby players and a poet. Thanks for that, Katy. I was planning to look Cyril up, and you made it easy for me. To better explain my comments about C. Hinshelwood: My reference to qualifying for a Nobel wasn't really a suggestion the he didn't deserve one -- only that his ability to explain things well may not have been Nobel-worthy but was certainly praiseworthy. You probably understood that, but there may be some who didn't. SignatureMaria C. >>>>> Paul Wolff wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >You probably understood that, but there may be some who didn't. I infer from what Paul said that Hinshelwood's genius lay in impressing the Nobel prize committee despite, not because of, the fact that he made his science understandable. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ Wood wrote on Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:03:13 +0000: > I infer from what Paul said that Hinshelwood's genius lay in > impressing the Nobel prize committee despite, not because of, > the fact that he made his science understandable. The process of awarding a Nobel prize can be rather arcane and susceptible to nationalistic influences, witness the literature prizes. However, a large number of eminent scientists, some of whom I have known, are polled for suggestions for the science prizes. This may also be true for the literature prizes but I have no personal experience. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >>>>>> Paul Wolff wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > impressing the Nobel prize committee despite, not because of, the fact > that he made his science understandable. I guess I didn't really get that from what Paul said. Maybe I missed something. And now, it's time to get supper/dinner ready. Or at least help to do so (since Brian's already begun). Maria C. >Wood Avens wrote: >>>>>>> Paul Wolff wrote: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >I guess I didn't really get that from what Paul said. Maybe I missed >something. Sometimes I'm a little casual in what I write. Cyril impressed me as a kindly elderly gentleman who took the trouble to explain aspects of thermodynamics and chemical kinetics to a bunch of first-year undergraduates with clarity and simplicity, so that I, for one, saw clearly how they worked. Or so I thought, at any rate (ha!). We knew he was 'famous', but I certainly didn't realise then that he had conquered the highest academic peaks available to him in the British Isles (President of the Royal Society, of the Chemical Society, of the Faraday Society, Dr Lee's Professor of Chemistry at Oxford) with a knighthood, an Order of Merit and a Nobel Prize in his back pocket too. John Varela went thermodynamic upthread, and for some reason I mentioned Hinshelwood in a follow-up. It seems the old boy really did make an impression on me. SignaturePaul Maria wrote on Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:39:09 -0500: >>> Paul Wolff wrote: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> difficult to see why he should have won a Nobel Prize for his >> work. > People who can explain things so well that even complicated > matters are easy to comprehend are real gems. However, I don't > know if that ability is Nobel fodder. (I've yet to understand how > certain things qualify for a Nobel prize. Maybe your Mr. > Hinshelwood could explain it.) The wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Norman_Hinshelwood seems reliable and pretty well details why this eminent and greatly honored scientist won the Nobel Prize. He was also awarded the British Order of Merit, one of the highest distinctions, and was elected president of the Royal Society and of the Chemical Society. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > The wikipedia entry: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Norman_Hinshelwood seems reliable > and pretty well details why this eminent and greatly honored > scientist won the Nobel Prize. He was also awarded the British Order > of Merit, one of the highest distinctions, and was elected president > of the Royal Society and of the Chemical Society. Please see my reply to Wood Avens. Maria C., Who doesn't always make her comments as clear as she would like. >> As long as >> rain still falls on the high ground, the energy will keep on being [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > universe. Energy stored in a reservoir should be said to be > replenished, not renewed. Conservation of energy only applies in a closed system. If you had to take the whole universe into account every time, there's a lot more than the word "renew" that would become irksome. People do talk about "renewable" energy and resources, and the distinction between that and non-renewable is a useful one, even though it is only relative. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>> If I had an electric car it would be run by hydropower, a thought >>> which leads to a pleasantly absurd image... [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >rain still falls on the high ground, the energy will keep on being >renewed. De-silting is, for many many dams, not practical. Imagine trying to de-silt Lake Mead, Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> The dams may need maintenance, desilting or rebuilding eventually. >> Nothing lasts forever. The generators will need rewiring and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > De-silting is, for many many dams, not practical. Imagine trying > to de-silt Lake Mead, If you really had to, I guess you could open or demolish the dam and then wait a while before rebuilding it. The river would do the work for you, but you'd have to also do all the dams downstream at the same time or in sequence. The river would just be a little more colorado than normal for a decade or two. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>> The dams may need maintenance, desilting or rebuilding eventually. >>> Nothing lasts forever. The generators will need rewiring and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >or in sequence. The river would just be a little more colorado than >normal for a decade or two. It would also bring back the devestating floods on the Lower Colorado River that were one of the justifications for building the dams in the first place. Except now there's more downstream development to be destroyed by the floods. Not to mention the loss of California's and Arizona's water supplies for a few years. Moving all that silt from Lake Mead to bury Blythe doesn't seem likd such a good idea. Or... now that I think about it..... But, Hey!, maybe it would refill the Salton Sea. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >>If you really had to, I guess you could open or demolish the dam and >>then wait a while before rebuilding it. The river would do the work for [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >But, Hey!, maybe it would refill the Salton Sea. Now there's a useful idea...then we could go and find the Spanish galleon that's supposed to be submerged out there....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Not to mention the > loss of California's and Arizona's water supplies for a few > years. You say that as if it would be a bad thing. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> >That's why the whole hoo-hah over hybrid vehicles is a farce. Not to >> >mention that the day will come when everyone will be moaning about the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >If I had an electric car it would be run by hydropower, a thought which >leads to a pleasantly absurd image... Sounds good to me. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> Another factor that can't be forgotten is global warming. No matter >>>>> what Americans want, they must be weaned off gas guzzlers. What if the [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > almost 450 miles long." (I accept no responsibility for width being > greater than length in that quotation.) I don't believe it. Northern China isn't 3000 miles wide. SignatureMike Page Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email. [...] >> These are underground fires in coal mines. They are almost >> impossible to put out. The cited article says, "One coal fire in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> quotation.) > I don't believe it. Northern China isn't 3000 miles wide. It will, Oscar, it will. SignatureMike. >> These are underground fires in coal mines. They are almost impossible >> to put out. The cited article says, "One coal fire in northern China, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > I don't believe it. Northern China isn't 3000 miles wide. Maybe the coal seam curves. If you don't like that site/cite, here's another one, the first one that pops up on Googling "coal mine fires China": http://www.minesandcommunities.org/article.php?a=1815 SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>> These are underground fires in coal mines. They are almost impossible >>> to put out. The cited article says, "One coal fire in northern China, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >http://www.minesandcommunities.org/article.php?a=1815 As I've said, drop bombs on the sites of the fires. Problem solved. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> These are underground fires in coal mines. They are almost impossible >>>> to put out. The cited article says, "One coal fire in northern China, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >As I've said, drop bombs on the sites of the fires. Problem solved. Yeah. Spread those burning coals all over the countryside. The fires are so deep some places that bombs can't reach them. And if you don't get every last little bit of the fire out it will flare up and start all over again. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> As I've said, drop bombs on the sites of the fires. Problem solved. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And if you don't get every last little bit of the fire out it > will flare up and start all over again. And if you open up the seams to the atmosphere they will burn all the more fiercely. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:04:40 -0500, Hatunen wrote [...] >> The fires are so deep some places that bombs can't reach them. >> And if you don't get every last little bit of the fire out it >> will flare up and start all over again. > > And if you open up the seams to the atmosphere they will burn all the > more fiercely. Somebody upthread mentioned porosity. Is that really all it takes to keep these underground fires supplied with oxygen? (I've always found the idea of underground fires mind-boggling, so any explanation, however elementary, will probably be welcome.) SignatureMike. >> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:04:40 -0500, Hatunen wrote > [...] [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the idea of underground fires mind-boggling, so any explanation, however > elementary, will probably be welcome.) Even more mind boggling are the under sea fires on the ocean floor. >John Varela wrote: >> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:04:40 -0500, Hatunen wrote [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >the idea of underground fires mind-boggling, so any explanation, however >elementary, will probably be welcome.) It's worth remembering that a deep underground site is pretty well insulated, once it is warmed up (and deep rocks are hotter than surface rocks for geothermal reasons anyway). That is, heat can't escape very quickly, so it may not take much oxygen to keep enough exothermic chemistry going to sustain the reactions. The coal seam temperature will not easily fall below combustion temperature even with limited air. Town gas used to be produced from hot coal, with a bit of water thrown in (carbon reacts with steam when it is hot enough, to form carbon monoxide and hydrogen, both flammable gases), and other variations come into play. There's an article at <http://technology.infomine.com/enviromine/case_hist/coal%20fires/Strache r_et_al.html> or <http://tinyurl.com/5efhsx> which doesn't properly answer the question, though it refers to oxygen and moisture circulating through coal seam joints, but has some interesting remarks on the causes of these fires. It is claimed that there is evidence for them back in the Pleistocene. Fast forward, and a Pennsylvania mine fire that has been burning since 1962 was started by the town council to clear out the rats from a rubbish dump. SignaturePaul Mike Lyle: >> Somebody upthread mentioned porosity. Is that really all it takes to >> keep these underground fires supplied with oxygen? (I've always found >> the idea of underground fires mind-boggling, so any explanation, however >> elementary, will probably be welcome.) Paul Wolff: > It's worth remembering that a deep underground site is pretty well > insulated, once it is warmed up (and deep rocks are hotter than surface > rocks for geothermal reasons anyway). That is, heat can't escape very > quickly, so it may not take much oxygen to keep enough exothermic > chemistry going to sustain the reactions. ... > There's an article at > <http://technology.infomine.com/enviromine/case_hist/coal%20fires/Strache [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of these fires. It is claimed that there is evidence for them back in > the Pleistocene. I'm reminded of the fact that a nuclear reactor formed naturally in uranium deposits in Africa in prehistoric times. It was discovered when people started mining the uranium and realized that it had less than the normal proportion of U-235. Of course, no supply of oxygen was needed for this! > Fast forward, and a Pennsylvania mine fire that has been burning since > 1962 was started by the town council to clear out the rats from a > rubbish dump. And did it? There was a fire in one of the Titanic's coal bunkers for the entire duration of its one voyage. In one of the more surreal bits of the movie "Synecdoche, New York", one of the characters buys a house that is on fire and continues to live there for years. SignatureMark Brader | "If you have to go in, you go in. Toronto | The choice was made the day you took your oath." msb@vex.net | --Dan Duddy, New York Fire Department My text in this article is in the public domain. > There's an article at > <http://technology.infomine.com/enviromine/case_hist/coal%20fires/Strache [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > been burning since 1962 was started by the town council to clear out the > rats from a rubbish dump. The mine waste tips (which we called slag-heaps, although they weren't technically slag) used to sometimes burn. Fascinating (and no doubt terribly dangerous) places to play when a child. Just typing this I can smell that strange, sulphurous smell. SignatureWaterways route planning website: http://canalplan.org.uk >> Somebody upthread mentioned porosity. Is that really all it takes to >> keep these underground fires supplied with oxygen? (I've always found [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Pennsylvania mine fire that has been burning since 1962 was started > by the town council to clear out the rats from a rubbish dump. There are schemes for in-ground gasification of coal seams by that kind of town gas/water gas chemistry. Another version that I've heard of produces ammonia and urea for fertiliser. It's a way of exploiting seams that are too thin or too deep or otherwise unsafe to mine directly. Some details here: http://www.coal-ucg.com/current%20developments.html and www.australiancoal.csiro.au/pdfs/walker.pdf I wonder if those could be adapted to bring some of these coal seam fires under control and capture gases in a useful form. I guess if it was easy it would have been done already. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:04:40 -0500, Hatunen wrote >[...] [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >the idea of underground fires mind-boggling, so any explanation, however >elementary, will probably be welcome.) There are muck fires in Florida that burn for months. http://swampie.wordpress.com/2008/05/10/lake-okechobee-muck-fire-could-burn-for- months/ The weird thing is that they happen in wet, swampy areas. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida tony wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:15:06 -0500: >>> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:04:40 -0500, Hatunen wrote >> [...] [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> mind-boggling, so any explanation, however elementary, will >> probably be welcome.) > There are muck fires in Florida that burn for months. > http://swampie.wordpress.com/2008/05/10/lake-okechobee-muck-fire-could-burn-for- months/ > The weird thing is that they happen in wet, swampy areas. It is surprising what can happen in nature. There is evidence for an accidental natural atomic reactor in Africa, SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >It is surprising what can happen in nature. There is evidence for an >accidental natural atomic reactor in Africa, Millions and millions of years ago. http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/factsheets/doeymp0010.shtml Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>It is surprising what can happen in nature. There is evidence for an >>accidental natural atomic reactor in Africa, > > Millions and millions of years ago. > > http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/factsheets/doeymp0010.shtml Time for spontaneous combustion of this thread. >>> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:04:40 -0500, Hatunen wrote >>[...] [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > http://swampie.wordpress.com/2008/05/10/lake-okechobee-muck-fire-could-burn-for- months/ > The weird thing is that they happen in wet, swampy areas. Swamp fires and swamp gas are fairly well-known phenomena, aren't they? I mean, one of the definitions of "will-o-the-wisp" was swamp gas, floating in the breeze. I think muskeg, under another name (peat bog) has fires going. In our area, until the locals finally drained much of the swamp, the bogs were burning for years at a time. The fumes and smoke were a bit hard on the eyes, but the smell wasn't bad at all. The ancient peat had formed a kind of "pre-lignite" carbon, and I understand somewhere in the Dakotas there are vast deposits of such fuel. Don't know if they have bog fires, though. How about in Ireland? Any spontaneous peat bog furnaces perfuming the air? > I think muskeg, under another name (peat bog) has fires going. In our > area, until the locals finally drained much of the swamp, the bogs [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > How about in Ireland? Any spontaneous peat bog furnaces perfuming the > air? I don't know about Ireland, but there's a lake west of Melbourne that has floating islands as a result of a peat bog fire in the 1930s: http://www.walkabout.com.au/locations/VICColac.shtml about half way down the page. >Swamp fires and swamp gas are fairly well-known phenomena, aren't they? >I mean, one of the definitions of "will-o-the-wisp" was swamp gas, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >How about in Ireland? Any spontaneous peat bog furnaces perfuming the >air? Peat bog fires in Ireland seem to be a temporary seasonable phenomenon. Partly because peat is an economic resource peat fires are extinguished as soon as possible. From _Peat bog fire challenges for Ireland's firefighters_: http://www.bristoluniforms.com/documents/news/Fire%20Times%20-%20Wildland%20in%2 0Ireland%20feature%2005.08.pdf or http://tinyurl.com/66fgu6 Given its reputation as a land of high rainfall, Ireland, exposed to the wet westerly winds coming off the Atlantic Ocean, is not a European country which might immediately come to mind in the context of wildland fires. And yet, despite its high rainfall, Ireland does experience enough dry periods to be prone to gorse and heath fires and, unlike most other European countries, faces the periodic dangers of peat bog fires, writes Philip Tasker, Bristol Uniforms Ltd. .... Peat bog fires are more common during the sum- mer months when the peat is being harvested. Dur- ing periods of dry and sunny weather the wind lifts the dry dust into the air making it prone to catch fire. The fire burns across the dry surface of the peat and as it becomes more established can burn down into the surface layers where it builds up intense heat help- ing to sustain the fire underground and making it par- ticularly difficult for firefighters to extinguish its core. .... SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> As I've said, drop bombs on the sites of the fires. Problem solved. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >And if you open up the seams to the atmosphere they will burn all the >more fiercely. If I could nuke, figuratively speaking, spoilsport Hatunen, I'd consider it. I'll bet he finds a way to ruin his own wet dreams, one way or another. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >If I could nuke, figuratively speaking, spoilsport Hatunen, I'd >consider it. It's the curse of being an engineer. >I'll bet he finds a way to ruin his own wet dreams, one >way or another. At the age of 71, I wish I had more wet dreams. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> If I could nuke, figuratively speaking, spoilsport Hatunen, I'd >> consider it. > > It's the curse of being an engineer. Ambiguity alert: Do you say that because Chuck is an engineer, or do you say it because you yourself are one? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>> If I could nuke, figuratively speaking, spoilsport Hatunen, I'd >>> consider it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Ambiguity alert: Do you say that because Chuck is an engineer, or do you > say it because you yourself are one? I do like the way you've managed to make a grammatical sentence about being an engineer that ends "are one". SignatureWaterways route planning website: http://canalplan.org.uk >>> If I could nuke, figuratively speaking, spoilsport Hatunen, I'd >>> consider it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Ambiguity alert: Do you say that because Chuck is an engineer, or do >you say it because you yourself are one? If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>> If I could nuke, figuratively speaking, spoilsport Hatunen, I'd >>>> consider it. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. I think Chuck was an engineer of the electrifying kind. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. > > I think Chuck was an engineer of the electrifying kind. About which I sometimes gently needle him. So far he's refrained from responding in kind. Some of my best friends are electrical engineers. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>> If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. >> >> I think Chuck was an engineer of the electrifying kind. > >About which I sometimes gently needle him. So far he's refrained from >responding in kind. Some of my best friends are electrical engineers. I may have been accidentally unfair to Chuck, by saying he "was" an electrical engineer. Engineering is a way of looking at and thinking about the world. Once an engineer, always an engineer. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >> On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:37:06 -0700, Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > electrical engineer. Engineering is a way of looking at and thinking > about the world. Once an engineer, always an engineer. So there's no hope for me? Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >>>> On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:37:06 -0700, Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > So there's no hope for me? There's no hope for many of us. SignatureDavid >>>>> On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:37:06 -0700, Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >There's no hope for many of us. It's one of those childhood habits that you can't grow out of. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>>> On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:37:06 -0700, Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> >>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >It's one of those childhood habits that you can't grow out of. After we make a pile of money from engineering in our thirties and forties, we should have time to study something less useful and more enlightening. That was always my plan and it has worked out fairly well. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > > > I may have been accidentally unfair to Chuck, by saying he "was" > > > an electrical engineer. Engineering is a way of looking at and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > There's no hope for many of us. I never intended to become an engineer. I just fell in with a bad crowd. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >>>> Engineering is a way of looking at and thinking about >>>> the world. Once an engineer, always an engineer. >>> So there's no hope for me? >> There's no hope for many of us. > I never intended to become an engineer. I just fell in with a bad crowd. Which leads to: http://www.inflection-point.com/jokes/45.htm SignatureMark Brader "We can get ideas even from a clever man." ... Toronto "Yes, I think you can. Even ideas you should msb@vex.net have had yourselves." -- John Dickson Carr >>>>> Engineering is a way of looking at and thinking about >>>>> the world. Once an engineer, always an engineer. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Which leads to: http://www.inflection-point.com/jokes/45.htm Well, the version I know involves three alumni of (respectively) Harvard, Yale, and MIT. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> > > I may have been accidentally unfair to Chuck, by saying he "was" >> > > an electrical engineer. Engineering is a way of looking at and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I never intended to become an engineer. I just fell in with a bad > crowd. I have a masters from the School of Engineering at Stanford, but I never applied to it. (My department moved from Humanities and Sciences while I was there.) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |You cannot solve problems with the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |same type of thinking that created Palo Alto, CA 94304 |them. | Albert Einstein kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >> There's no hope for many of us. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > never applied to it. (My department moved from Humanities and > Sciences while I was there.) I still have no degree in Engineering. I was originally BS in Physics (emphasis Astrophysics), and later in MS Physics. Years later I got the MS in Computer Science. To be fair, the latter was issued from the School of Engineering. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >>>> There's no hope for many of us. >>> I never intended to become an engineer. I just fell in with a bad [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > MS in Computer Science. To be fair, the latter was issued from the > School of Engineering. Same here - my BSc in Computer Science is from Manchester's Faculty of Science. But I am a Chartered Engineer. SignatureDavid > > I still have no degree in Engineering. I was originally BS in > > Physics (emphasis Astrophysics), and later in MS Physics. Years [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Same here - my BSc in Computer Science is from Manchester's Faculty > of Science. But I am a Chartered Engineer. These days my official title is "Real-time Software Engineer". It used to be "Embedded Software Engineer", after which I could quip, "and we know painful that can be." Hilarious, I realize. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> >> On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:37:06 -0700, Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >So there's no hope for me? As long as we can read and listen, there still is. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > > So there's no hope for me? > > As long as we can read and listen, there still is. Listen? LISTEN?! I am doomed then. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >>>> If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >engineer. Engineering is a way of looking at and thinking about the world. >Once an engineer, always an engineer. Yes, once we slung those slide rule on our belts, we gave up any chance of being liberated. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Yes, once we slung those slide rule on our belts, we gave up any > chance of being liberated. Carrying a slide rule on my belt is something I never did. Yes, I carried one alright, but never on my belt. I did wear a pocket protector, though, loaded with all sorts of writing implements and a little metal ruler (with a clip). Later, I became a programmer and unloaded the paraphernalia. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > Carrying a slide rule on my belt is something I never did. Yes, I carried > one alright, but never on my belt. Me neither. I only carried the slide rule when I needed it for a quiz. > I did wear a pocket protector, though, > loaded with all sorts of writing implements and a little metal ruler (with a > clip). In defense of the pocket protector: They were done in by ball point pens that no longer leak. Before that, a pocket protector was manly. Plumbers, auto mechanics, UPS drivers, anyone who had to carry a pen wore a pocket protector. A friend had one from PATCO, the controllers' union that Reagan fired. I still have one or two of them in a drawer around here somewhere. As for the metal ruler, I have one right here. The clip is rusty but the scale itself is stainless. On the back is a table of decimal equivalents and the legend, "Use sliding clip as a depth gauge". The what-appears-to-be-genuine-leather slip case says "General Precision, Inc. / Librascope Group". I've never used it. It's one of those things that looks like it should be really handy but it isn't. I wonder what it would fetch on eBay. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. John Varela wrote, in <0001HW.C56D5869000A3E37B01AD9AF@News.Individual.NET> on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:06:49 -0500: > As for the metal ruler, I have one right here. The clip is rusty but > the scale itself is stainless. On the back is a table of decimal [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > things that looks like it should be really handy but it isn't. I > wonder what it would fetch on eBay. I have the identical item here in the pot full of pens, pencils etc. on my desk. No leather case though and hardly a trace of rust on the clip. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:29:59 +0000: >> As for the metal ruler, I have one right here. The clip is >> rusty but the scale itself is stainless. On the back is a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> It's one of those things that looks like it should be really >> handy but it isn't. I wonder what it would fetch on eBay. The slide rule that accompanied me until the last 15 years of my working life has an engineer's leather belt case that I never actually used. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not [...] > The slide rule that accompanied me until the last 15 years of my > working life has an engineer's leather belt case that I never > actually used. I've often read here about these belt holsters for slide rules, and thought that hanging from the belt would be the worst place to keep an elongate precision instrument. I feel sure that I'd have bent or broken at least one a week. Was there a special engineer's way of sitting down that had to be learned, as there was for ladies wearing bustles or crinolines? (Or, Chuck, was sitting down considered unmanly?) (I remember hobble skirts, but cue 19C /Punch/ cartoon. Gallant: Would you care to sit down, Miss X? Miss X: I'd love to, but my dressmaker says I mustn't.) SignatureMike. >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Gallant: Would you care to sit down, Miss X? >Miss X: I'd love to, but my dressmaker says I mustn't.) I remember a (possibly Punch) cartoon from the early days of the mini-skirt. Gallant, to young lady sitting on Underground train and desperately trying to pull her skirt down over her thighs: Would you like to stand, Miss? (I wonder if most of the Youth of Today would understand why that was funny.) SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> [...] >>> The slide rule that accompanied me until the last 15 years of my [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > (I wonder if most of the Youth of Today would understand why that was > funny.) This morning while I had to wait while my travelling companion, wearing an Armani outfit with a very tight skirt, hoisted herself inelegantly into a vehicle with a high step. It struck me as quite pointless to invest in clothes that, while looking impressive, require one to manoeuvre in clumsy ways that completely outweigh the attractiveness of the clothes. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > This morning while I had to wait while my travelling companion, wearing > an Armani outfit with a very tight skirt, hoisted herself inelegantly > into a vehicle with a high step. It struck me as quite pointless to > invest in clothes that, while looking impressive, require one to > manoeuvre in clumsy ways that completely outweigh the attractiveness of > the clothes. Along the same lines, I have always fancied having a leather great-coat, but I cannot bear to drive while wearing a coat (and a full-length one would be impractical) and I don't live in a city so I have to drive everywhere. I would hardly ever have a chance to wear it. SignatureDavid >> This morning while I had to wait while my travelling companion, wearing >> an Armani outfit with a very tight skirt, hoisted herself inelegantly [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >would be impractical) and I don't live in a city so I have to drive >everywhere. I would hardly ever have a chance to wear it. I've got a blue leather overcoat, which I bought in a sale in France in the early 80s. I rather like it, but not to drive in. During my singles club days some young ladies referred to it as my "SS" coat. I decided not to grow a moustache. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > I've got a blue leather overcoat, which I bought in a sale in France > in the early 80s. I rather like it, but not to drive in. During my > singles club days some young ladies referred to it as my "SS" coat. I > decided not to grow a moustache. A traditional 100% British military moustache ought to be OK. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/13/handlebar_tash/ SignatureHistory teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. (Thurgood Marshall) >> I've got a blue leather overcoat, which I bought in a sale in France >> in the early 80s. I rather like it, but not to drive in. During my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/13/handlebar_tash/ Thanks, but any moustache I grew would be silver. I was thinking that it wouldn't go with the sports car, but in fact we old blokes are probably the only ones who can afford the motor insurance on sports cars these days. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England Robin wrote on Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:52:04 +0000: >>> I've got a blue leather overcoat, which I bought in a sale >>> in France in the early 80s. I rather like it, but not to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/13/handlebar_tash/ > Thanks, but any moustache I grew would be silver. I was > thinking that it wouldn't go with the sports car, but in fact > we old blokes are probably the only ones who can afford the > motor insurance on sports cars these days. I was tempted to buy a BMW 300 series but their pricing (something like "wheels optional $1000 each") and my family's comments led me to get a 4-wheel drive. Today, I saw a guy older than me getting into a Porsche Boxter: Oh, the envy! SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Robin wrote on Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:52:04 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >4-wheel drive. Today, I saw a guy older than me getting into a Porsche >Boxter: Oh, the envy! I considered one of those, but I wanted a convertible and can't manage raising and lowering soft/hard tops manually anymore. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England On Dec 18, 12:14 am, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: . > I was tempted to buy a BMW 300 series but their pricing (something like > "wheels optional $1000 each") and my family's comments led me to get a > 4-wheel drive. Today, I saw a guy older than me getting into a Porsche > Boxter: Oh, the envy! No, no, no: women who see men getting into (or already in, for that matter) Porsches just make one (not at all flattering) assumption about such men. Consider that you have had a lucky escape, and envy no more! cheers, Stephanie in Brussels >On Dec 18, 12:14 am, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >cheers, >Stephanie in Brussels You're making the unwarranted assumption that the reason most men buy Porches is to attract women. The better reason, and I suspect the one that most men have, is that no car handles better than a Porsche, at least in my opinion. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >You're making the unwarranted assumption that the reason most men buy >Porches is to attract women. The better reason, and I suspect the one >that most men have, is that no car handles better than a Porsche, at >least in my opinion. I've found that porches rarely attract women because that would require them to be walking by. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> This morning while I had to wait while my travelling companion, wearing >> an Armani outfit with a very tight skirt, hoisted herself inelegantly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >but I cannot bear to drive while wearing a coat (and a full-length one >would be impractical) Dangerous, even. In my driving days I generally removed both my jacket and my coat before getting behind the wheel. >and I don't live in a city so I have to drive >everywhere. I would hardly ever have a chance to wear it. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> [...] >>>> The slide rule that accompanied me until the last 15 years of my [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > require one to manoeuvre in clumsy ways that completely outweigh the > attractiveness of the clothes. I remember a friend complaining that mini-skirts gave one chilblains on the Fallopian tubes. SignatureMike. > This morning while I had to wait while my travelling companion, wearing > an Armani outfit with a very tight skirt, hoisted herself inelegantly > into a vehicle with a high step. It struck me as quite pointless to > invest in clothes that, while looking impressive, require one to > manoeuvre in clumsy ways that completely outweigh the attractiveness of > the clothes. That is why, if I were Fashion Czarina, we would all be wearing very elegant and completely practical and comfortable variants on the salwar kameez. But I'm not, as more than one have pointed out... (ObGrammarPoint anyone?) S in B >> This morning while I had to wait while my travelling companion, wearing >> an Armani outfit with a very tight skirt, hoisted herself inelegantly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >elegant and completely practical and comfortable variants on the >salwar kameez. Pity. I'd be OK with that. But of course if you were Fashion Czarina you'd be in thrall to the fashion induistry, whcih makes its money out of people being persuaded to buy something new and different every few months. >But I'm not, as more than one have pointed out... (ObGrammarPoint >anyone?) You'll get no argument from this one. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > > This morning while I had to wait while my travelling companion, wearing > > an Armani outfit with a very tight skirt, hoisted herself inelegantly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > elegant and completely practical and comfortable variants on the > salwar kameez. You have my vote. (Czarina is an elected position, right?) SignatureSML >> > This morning while I had to wait while my travelling companion, wearing >> > an Armani outfit with a very tight skirt, hoisted herself inelegantly [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >You have my vote. (Czarina is an elected position, right?) Not if it's Catherine the Great. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > > That is why, if I were Fashion Czarina, we would all be wearing very > > elegant and completely practical and comfortable variants on the > > salwar kameez. > > You have my vote. (Czarina is an elected position, right?) I'm touched and thrilled. But there's one more thing we need to change, that bit about the elections, there.... to quote Emily Litella (?), 'it's always something.' all the best, S. in Brussels over-sprouted and completely over-goosed but saving what's left of her strength for the buche de Noel >>> That is why, if I were Fashion Czarina, we would all be wearing very >>> elegant and completely practical and comfortable variants on the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > change, that bit about the elections, there.... to quote Emily Litella > (?), 'it's always something.' No, that was Roseanna Roseannadanna. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > >>>> That is why, if I were Fashion Czarina, we would all be wearing very [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > No, that was Roseanna Roseannadanna. Oh...Never mind! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > > I'm touched and thrilled. But there's one more thing we need to > > change, that bit about the elections, there.... to quote Emily Litella > > (?), 'it's always something.' > > No, that was Roseanna Roseannadanna. Thank you! I stand corrected. Actually I'm more lounging these days, but I lounge corrected. cheers, Stephanie > >[...] > >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > (I wonder if most of the Youth of Today would understand why that was > funny.) I am no longer YoT, but laughed. I got rid of three skirts this year that were no longer decent when I sat down. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> I remember a (possibly Punch) cartoon from the early days of the >> mini-skirt. Gallant, to young lady sitting on Underground train and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I am no longer YoT, but laughed. I got rid of three skirts this year > that were no longer decent when I sat down. You're still growing taller? [ducks] SignatureLeila: "I don't think he knows." Agent Rogersz: "Increase the voltage." Leila: "What if he's innocent?" Agent Rogersz: "No one is innocent. Proceed" (Cox 1984) Mike wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:41:49 -0000: > [...] >> >> The slide rule that accompanied me until the last 15 years of >> my working life has an engineer's leather belt case that I >> never actually used. > I've often read here about these belt holsters for slide > rules, and thought that hanging from the belt would be the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > as there was for ladies wearing bustles or crinolines? (Or, Chuck, was > sitting down considered unmanly?) > (I remember hobble skirts, but cue 19C /Punch/ cartoon. > Gallant: Would you care to sit down, Miss X? > Miss X: I'd love to, but my dressmaker says I mustn't.) It was carried at the side like a sword and engineering students in the US certainly wore the hard leather cases. Dropping a slide rule might mis-set the scales but the better ones were easy to realign. The engineering slide rules were expensive enough that one might buy a replacement for a broken cursor. I think my slide rule cost the present day equivalent of $200. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > It was carried at the side like a sword and engineering students in the > US certainly wore the hard leather cases. Not at MIT in the 1950s. There was a minority who wore slide rules from their belts but they were objects of derision and were classified as "tools" by the normals. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> It was carried at the side like a sword and engineering students in the >> US certainly wore the hard leather cases. > > Not at MIT in the 1950s. There was a minority who wore slide rules > from their belts but they were objects of derision and were classified > as "tools" by the normals. Real men used Log tables. >>> It was carried at the side like a sword and engineering students in the >>> US certainly wore the hard leather cases. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Real men used Log tables. Real men had the log tables memorized. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> It was carried at the side like a sword and engineering students in the >>> US certainly wore the hard leather cases. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Real men used Log tables. Real men who needed more precision in their answers than a slide rule can provide certainly did. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>Real men used Log tables. That's how Simon Newcomb discovered that more than 1/10 of the numbers that people actually use start with "1". Most people, for instance, would expect that if you take all the figures that have been submitted as legitimate expenses to the Inland Revenue then the first digit is equally likely to be any of the numbers from 1 to 9. But this turns out not to be true. The number 1 will occur as the first digit three times more often than you would expect. This strange phenomenon occurs with a whole range of sets of data. If you take the first digit in the lengths of the world's rivers or populations of cities across Europe or the set of numbers entered into Google each week, the number 1 wins every time. ... [In 1881] Newcomb was struck by how much dirtier the pages at the front of the book were than those at the end. ... So Newcomb believed that the dirt was a sign that the numbers scientists were looking up in the tables began with 1 more often than any other number. http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4987235.ece > Real men who needed more precision in their answers than a slide rule > can provide certainly did. A 6" diameter circular slide rule (really spiral) can give you a few more digits of precision than a 12" linear one. The down-side is that you have to estimate the answer better so you know which "layer" of the spiral to read. SignatureThis sig no verb. Adam wrote on Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:17:46 +0000: >>> Real men used Log tables. > That's how Simon Newcomb discovered that more than 1/10 of the > numbers that people actually use start with "1". > Most people, for instance, would expect that if you take > all the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > often than > you would expect. > This strange phenomenon occurs with a whole range of sets > of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > time. > ... > [In 1881] Newcomb was struck by how much dirtier the pages > at the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > other > number. > http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4987235.ece >> Real men who needed more precision in their answers than a >> slide rule can provide certainly did. > A 6" diameter circular slide rule (really spiral) can give you > a few more digits of precision than a 12" linear one. The > down-side is that you have to estimate the answer better so > you know which "layer" of the spiral to read. I've not used a circular slide rule much but the ones with spiral scales that I encountered were actually cylindrical, horribly expensive, not very portable, and were usually to be seen in engineering offices. My 12-inch straight rule has a 10-inch scale calibrated to 3 decimal places near 1 and can be estimated to 4 places there but only 3 places near 9. My 6 inch rule, with a 5-inch scale, is calibrated only to 2 units in the third place. The effective length of a circular outer scale on an 8-inch circular slide rule is about 25 inches and would be difficult to estimate to more than 5 decimals even near 1, I guess. However, you might be able to estimate 4 figure accuracy for all numbers. 8-inch circular rules were not very popular in my experience, probably because you would have to carry them around in a brief case. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Adam wrote on Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:17:46 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that I encountered were actually cylindrical, horribly expensive, not > very portable, and were usually to be seen in engineering offices. I have my dad's cylindrical slide rule, which he bought when he started in the drawing office in about 1946. SignatureDavid > Adam wrote on Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:17:46 +0000: >> A 6" diameter circular slide rule (really spiral) can give you >> a few more digits of precision than a 12" linear one. The [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >that I encountered were actually cylindrical, horribly expensive, not >very portable, and were usually to be seen in engineering offices. My circular slide rules were simply a single metal disc printed wiht the required logarithmic scales, and with two clar plastic pointers. If you already use a slide rule, one of these is quite easy to master. There's a how-to-make-one page at http://solar.physics.montana.edu/kankel/math/csr.html but the figure only shows a single pointer which raises my dubiosity counter. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > Adam wrote on Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:17:46 +0000: >> A 6" diameter circular slide rule (really spiral) can give you >> a few more digits of precision than a 12" linear one. The [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that I encountered were actually cylindrical, horribly expensive, not > very portable, and were usually to be seen in engineering offices. I've never seen one of those "live" (I've seen pictures, though, so I basically what you're talking about.) > My 12-inch straight rule has a 10-inch scale calibrated to 3 decimal > places near 1 and can be estimated to 4 places there but only 3 places [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > numbers. 8-inch circular rules were not very popular in my experience, > probably because you would have to carry them around in a brief case. The one I've inherited has a disk 21 cm in diameter and fits in a 23.5 cm square case (one of the cursors sticks out a bit farther than the edge of the disk. The manual says: This instrument has two Logarithmic Scales, one 30 inches long and the other, a spiral, 75 feet long. Two results to every problem can be read. The result given by the short scale can be read to three figures and the result on the 75 foot scale can be read to five figures as 98,687. The "Atlas Slide Rule" will handle three factors at one setting and hold the result, two additional factors can be used with this result at each additional setting. I was wrong about having to estimate the answer closely; you can do the calculation once on the unambiguous outer circular scale to get close enough to know which level to read when you do it again on the spiral scale. (Obviously you still have to work out the order of magnitude.) Here are two photos: http://www.ducksburg.com/atlas_slide_rule/ The "B side" (not shown) has one cursor, three degrees-sines-tangents scales (one for each of 0--30, 30--60, and 60--90 degrees), and a table of decimal equivalents of fractions at intervals of 1/64. SignatureHistory teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. (Thurgood Marshall) > The manual says: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Here are two photos: > http://www.ducksburg.com/atlas_slide_rule/ That's a beaut'! How did you acquire it? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> Here are two photos: >> http://www.ducksburg.com/atlas_slide_rule/ > > That's a beaut'! How did you acquire it? I inherited it from my grandfather. There's a family story that he gave one of my uncles one of these things for university, where a teacher failed him on a calculus test for cheating --- because his answers were too correct (i.e., impossible to obtain in the exam room with a slide rule). My uncle went to see the teacher about it; he hadn't seen a circular slide rule before but was impressed with it and changed his grade. SignatureBob just used 'canonical' in the canonical way. [Guy Steele] >>> Here are two photos: >>> http://www.ducksburg.com/atlas_slide_rule/ [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > went to see the teacher about it; he hadn't seen a circular slide rule > before but was impressed with it and changed his grade. Terriffic story. And how nice to have such a lovely thing handed down. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Adam Funk filted: > [In 1881] Newcomb was struck by how much dirtier the pages at the > front of the book were than those at the end. ... So Newcomb > believed that the dirt was a sign that the numbers scientists were > looking up in the tables began with 1 more often than any other > number. And thus was born the Zipfian distribution....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > A 6" diameter circular slide rule (really spiral) can give you a few > more digits of precision than a 12" linear one. The down-side is that > you have to estimate the answer better so you know which "layer" of > the spiral to read. One has to estimate the magnitude of answers for all slide rule results. Slide rules do not provide decimal points. The biggest benefit of the slide rule class was learning how to estimate the results of calculations before using the slide rule. SignatureSkitt (AmE) Skitt wrote on Fri, 19 Dec 2008 09:46:47 -0800: >> A 6" diameter circular slide rule (really spiral) can give >> you a few more digits of precision than a 12" linear one. The >> down-side is that you have to estimate the answer better so you know >> which "layer" of the spiral to read. > One has to estimate the magnitude of answers for all slide > rule results. Slide rules do not provide decimal points. I agree; there was an algorithm for placing the decimal point but I never learnt it and employed the estimation method all the time I used a side rule. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > One has to estimate the magnitude of answers for all slide rule results. > Slide rules do not provide decimal points. And the fact that the operator already had an idea of what the answer should be led to the catching of many calculation errors. That doesn't happen with calculators and of course computers are always right. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. John wrote on Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:38:27 -0500: >> One has to estimate the magnitude of answers for all slide >> rule results. Slide rules do not provide decimal points. > And the fact that the operator already had an idea of what the > answer should be led to the catching of many calculation > errors. That doesn't happen with calculators and of course > computers are always right. "Computers are too dumb to make misteaks". SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >> A 6" diameter circular slide rule (really spiral) can give you a few >> more digits of precision than a 12" linear one. The down-side is that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > One has to estimate the magnitude of answers for all slide rule results. > Slide rules do not provide decimal points. Right. You still have to do that with this one, but on the 75-foot spiral scale there are 30 "levels" to choose your answer from. But as I said in my other post (after getting this slide rule out) there is an unambiguous 30-inch outer scale that will get you close enough to pick the right one when you do it again with the spiral scale. > The biggest benefit of the slide rule class was learning how to estimate the > results of calculations before using the slide rule. Yes. And (to put some "usage.english" back into the thread) maybe if they still taught it, people would understand "order of magnitude" and use the term correctly. Signature...the reason why so many professional artists drink a lot is not necessarily very much to do with the artistic temperament, etc. It is simply that they can afford to, because they can normally take a large part of a day off to deal with the ravages. [Amis _On Drink_] Adam Funk filted: >> The biggest benefit of the slide rule class was learning how to estimate the >> results of calculations before using the slide rule. > >Yes. And (to put some "usage.english" back into the thread) maybe if >they still taught it, people would understand "order of magnitude" and >use the term correctly. We never had this problem when the Babylonians were in charge....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Adam Funk filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > We never had this problem when the Babylonians were in charge....r They merely shifted the burden from the calculator to the user of the figures, innit. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Adam Funk filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > We never had this problem when the Babylonians were in charge....r You can have any size, as long as it's 60. Signature| _ | ( ) ASCII Ribbon Campaign | X Against HTML email & news | / \ www.asciiribbon.org Adam Funk filted: >> We never had this problem when the Babylonians were in charge....r > >You can have any size, as long as it's 60. "Hollywood Squares" wisecrack of the week: Peter Marshall: "If a Roman woman told you she's 'XL', how old is she?" Paul Lynde: "Who cares? She's EXTRA LARGE!" ....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>>Real men used Log tables. > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4987235.ece And if you sprinkle sand on a slide rule from above, more grains will land between 1 and 1.99 than between 9 and 9.99. It's a question of how the number system represents wide-ranging, continuous quantities. >> Real men who needed more precision in their answers than a slide rule >> can provide certainly did. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >you have to estimate the answer better so you know which "layer" of >the spiral to read. SignatureJohn >>>>Real men used Log tables. >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >land between 1 and 1.99 than between 9 and 9.99. It's a question of >how the number system represents wide-ranging, continuous quantities. And no grains at all will land between zero and one. The scales are logarithmic. There is usually a parallel log scale with even tempered numbering. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>>Real men used Log tables. >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > The scales are logarithmic. There is usually a parallel log scale > with even tempered numbering. Ah, but it's the logarithmic scales that are equal-tempered. Or at least the equal-tempered scale proceeds by equal increments of log(f). SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>>>Real men used Log tables. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >Ah, but it's the logarithmic scales that are equal-tempered. Or at least >the equal-tempered scale proceeds by equal increments of log(f). But the log scale proceeds by equal imcrements of the natural numbers, which I feel trumps the visually squirrely looking A and B scales. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>>Real men used Log tables. >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >The scales are logarithmic. There is usually a parallel log scale >with even tempered numbering. Depending how you look at it, the landings can be seen as between zero and one. The scale can't represent zero or infinity, but it can represent the mantissa of any number in the open interval (0,oo). SignatureJohn >>>And if you sprinkle sand on a slide rule from above, more grains will >>>land between 1 and 1.99 than between 9 and 9.99. It's a question of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Depending how you look at it, the landings can be seen as between zero >and one. I certainly wouldn't look at it that way. Of course, on a circular slide rule there are no such landings. The scale can't represent zero or infinity, but it can >represent the mantissa of any number in the open interval (0,oo). Uh, yeah. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>And if you sprinkle sand on a slide rule from above, more grains will >>>>land between 1 and 1.99 than between 9 and 9.99. It's a question of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I certainly wouldn't look at it that way. Of course, on a >circular slide rule there are no such landings. In the context of my original comment (what a slide rule might show about why 1s are more likely in the first digit of naturally occurring quantities than 9s), if a grain of sand lands around 5, there's no more reason to call it 5 than 0.5, or, for that matter, 5e-10, or 5e10. I don't have a circular slide rule, but I'm sure it can represent 0.5 too. >The scale can't represent zero or infinity, but it can >>represent the mantissa of any number in the open interval (0,oo). > >Uh, yeah. SignatureJohn >>>Real men used Log tables. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > looking up in the tables began with 1 more often than any other > number. http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4987235.ece >> Real men who needed more precision in their answers than a slide rule >> can provide certainly did. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > you have to estimate the answer better so you know which "layer" of > the spiral to read. ...which you can do using your handy six-inch pocket rule, at the expense of running the calculation twice. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> It was carried at the side like a sword and engineering students in the >> US certainly wore the hard leather cases. > >Not at MIT in the 1950s. There was a minority who wore slide rules >from their belts but they were objects of derision and were classified >as "tools" by the normals. At the University of Virginia, too. I knew we weren't called "geeks", as I mentioned upthread. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> It was carried at the side like a sword and engineering students in the >>> US certainly wore the hard leather cases. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > At the University of Virginia, too. I knew we weren't called "geeks", > as I mentioned upthread. "Geek" and "nerd" weren't in use in the 1950s, as far as I know, and in any case wouldn't have applied at MIT because everyone there qualified. Well, almost everyone. I had a roommate who flunked out with a zero term rating. He wasn't a nerd. The term for uber-geek was "tool". SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > "Geek" and "nerd" weren't in use in the 1950s, as far as I know, The OED dates it to 1951, in a _Newsweek_ citation that implies that it was local to Detroit: 1951 _Newsweek_ 8 Oct. 28 In Detroit, someone who once would be called a drip or a square is now, regrettably, a nerd. The word appears (in a different sense) in Dr. Seuss's 1950 _If I Ran the Zoo_. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If we have to re-invent the wheel, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can we at least make it round this Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time? kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> "Geek" and "nerd" weren't in use in the 1950s, as far as I know, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >The word appears (in a different sense) in Dr. Seuss's 1950 _If I Ran >the Zoo_. I disagree with the Newsweek article, for a nerd is often the very opposite of a drip. For "drip", the OED has: A stupid, feeble or dull person; a fool; a bore. Nerds may be socially inept, but they are rarely stupid or foolish. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> "Geek" and "nerd" weren't in use in the 1950s, as far as I know, >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Nerds may be socially inept, but they are rarely stupid or foolish. That's true now, but it may not have been originally. The definition they give is An insignificant, foolish, or socially inept person; a person who is boringly conventional or studious. Now also: _spec_. a person who pursues an unfashionable or highly technical interest with obsessive or exclusive dedication. That "now" would seem to indicate that they think that the meaning shifted. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When you rewrite a compiler from 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |scratch, you sometimes fix things Palo Alto, CA 94304 |you didn't know were broken. | Larry Wall kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ John Varela: >>>> "Geek" and "nerd" weren't in use in the 1950s, as far as I know, Evan Kirshenbaum: >>> The OED dates it to 1951, in a _Newsweek_ citation that implies that >>> it was local to Detroit ... > The definition they give is > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That "now" would seem to indicate that they think that the meaning > shifted. Which means that John was right as far as the relevant sense is concerned. For me the word has completely shifted. The "foolish or socially inept" meaning is the only one that I knew when I was in school (1960s-70s); it was only in the 1980s that I first encountered the "unfashionable technical interest" meaning, and now it's the only one I encounter. I think I met "geek" in the same sense at about the same time. Until then I didn't have *any* word for that concept. SignatureMark Brader | "I have on occasion manufactured technical terms that Toronto | have made it into common use in the literature. msb@vex.net | But not many, and I'm licensed." --John Lawler My text in this article is in the public domain. > John Varela: >>>>> "Geek" and "nerd" weren't in use in the 1950s, as far as I know, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I think I met "geek" in the same sense at about the same time. Until > then I didn't have *any* word for that concept. Boffin trumps geek. OED ("nerd"): >>> Now also: _spec_. a person who pursues an unfashionable or >>> highly technical interest with obsessive or exclusive dedication. > Boffin trumps geek. I see that as meaning someone with a highly technical job rather than a person with an unfashionable interest in technical things. SignatureMark Brader "Computers get paid to extract relevant Toronto information from files; people should not msb@vex.net have to do such mundane tasks." -- Ian Darwin >> John Varela: >>>>>> "Geek" and "nerd" weren't in use in the 1950s, as far as I know, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Boffin trumps geek. Rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock. SignatureDavid >> For me the word has completely shifted. The "foolish or socially >> inept" meaning is the only one that I knew when I was in school [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Boffin trumps geek. Doin' what to his geek? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |You may hate gravity, but gravity 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |doesn't care. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Clayton Christensen kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>> It was carried at the side like a sword and engineering students in the >>>> US certainly wore the hard leather cases. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >The term for uber-geek was "tool". Yes, I suspect some of the liberal arts majors at UVa called us that behind our backs. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Mike wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:41:49 -0000: > [...] >> >> The slide rule that accompanied me until the last 15 years of >> my working life has an engineer's leather belt case that I >> never actually used. > I've often read here about these belt holsters for slide > rules, and thought that hanging from the belt would be the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > as there was for ladies wearing bustles or crinolines? (Or, Chuck, was > sitting down considered unmanly?) > (I remember hobble skirts, but cue 19C /Punch/ cartoon. > Gallant: Would you care to sit down, Miss X? > Miss X: I'd love to, but my dressmaker says I mustn't.) It was carried at the side like a sword and engineering students in the US certainly wore the hard leather cases. Dropping a slide rule might mis-set the scales but the better ones were easy to realign. The engineering slide rules were expensive enough that one might buy a replacement for a broken cursor. I think my slide rule cost the present day equivalent of $200. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Mike wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:41:49 -0000: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >replacement for a broken cursor. I think my slide rule cost the present >day equivalent of $200. As college students, we'd argue long into the night over which brand and model was best, too. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> It was carried at the side like a sword and engineering students in the >> US certainly wore the hard leather cases. Dropping a slide rule might [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > As college students, we'd argue long into the night over which brand > and model was best, too. As I recall, the big debate was over whether wood (K&E) or aluminum (Pickett) was better. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>> It was carried at the side like a sword and engineering students in the >>> US certainly wore the hard leather cases. Dropping a slide rule might [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >As I recall, the big debate was over whether wood (K&E) or aluminum >(Pickett) was better. Exactly. Perhaps because of my fondness for wood, I was always a K&E man. They produced some beautiful instruments that were a pleasure to use. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >that had to be learned, as there was for ladies wearing bustles or >crinolines? (Or, Chuck, was sitting down considered unmanly?) Now that you brought it up, I remember having to shift the case and slide rule slightly to my right whenever I sat down. That was a nuisance, as was the banging of the ensemble against my right leg as I hurried from one class to another, but you learn to live with it. <snip> SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >that had to be learned, as there was for ladies wearing bustles or >crinolines? (Or, Chuck, was sitting down considered unmanly?) The holsters were very rugged, fully enclosing the slide rule. I thing they were stronger than the slide rule. There wasn't really a sitting problem, really no different than carrying a sheathed knife at your hip. See the K&E case (holster) at http://home.att.net/~ross1/SRTC/Cases.htm Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > The holsters were very rugged, fully enclosing the slide rule. I > thing they were stronger than the slide rule. There wasn't really > a sitting problem, really no different than carrying a sheathed > knife at your hip. See the K&E case (holster) at > http://home.att.net/~ross1/SRTC/Cases.htm My case is exactly like the black one, fourth down, except mine is in much worse condition. In fact I just noticed it has a hole in it. I wonder when and how that happened. The page implies that only the top two cases are leather and only the one second from the top has a belt loop. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> The holsters were very rugged, fully enclosing the slide rule. I >> thing they were stronger than the slide rule. There wasn't really [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The page implies that only the top two cases are leather and only the > one second from the top has a belt loop. Mine is just like the top one. No belt loop. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:29:59 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The slide rule that accompanied me until the last 15 years of my working > life has an engineer's leather belt case that I never actually used. I couldn't afford the leather case; my case is some sort of leatherette. No belt loop on it. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:29:59 +0000: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I couldn't afford the leather case; my case is some sort of > leatherette. No belt loop on it. I think the leather case came standard with my Pickett rule. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:29:59 +0000: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >I think the leather case came standard with my Pickett rule. Real, soft, pleasant-smelling leather? I had a K & E which came with nothing but the box and an instruction manual, as I recall. I believe I bought the leatherette case separately from the student's bookstore. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck wrote on Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:47:36 +0000: >>>> Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:29:59 +0000: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >> I think the leather case came standard with my Pickett rule. > Real, soft, pleasant-smelling leather? > I had a K & E which came with nothing but the box and an > instruction manual, as I recall. I believe I bought the > leatherette case separately from the student's bookstore. I bought my faithful K&E 606 rule in the student bookstore at Cornell. It is two-sided and has all sorts of direct reading logarithmic, trigonometric and folded scales. As I remember, the manufacturer's catalog indicated that rules in ordinary boxes were available but the store only stocked the yellowish brown hard leather belt case. I was a scientist rather than an engineer but a lot of serious calculation was done with that rule. In passing, my wife was also a scientist and utterly refused to use anything but a 4 inch Dietzgen circular slide rule and that had a soft leather case. The precision of that slide rule, of course, was comparable with the ordinary 10 inch rule. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >>>> Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:29:59 +0000: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Real, soft, pleasant-smelling leather? Real leather, quite a decent thickness of it (a couple of mm at least), surrounding an inner sheath of sturdy hard plastic that protected the rule. Purchased circa 1970. > I had a K & E which came with nothing but the box and an instruction > manual, as I recall. I believe I bought the leatherette case > separately from the student's bookstore. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>> Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:29:59 +0000: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >surrounding an inner sheath of sturdy hard plastic that protected the rule. >Purchased circa 1970. <snip> That sounds both practical and attractive. If I'd seen that design, I probably would have bought it. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>> Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:29:59 +0000: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > That sounds both practical and attractive. If I'd seen that design, I > probably would have bought it. If I ever actually wore it from my belt, however, I've suppressed the memory. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Roland Hutchinson wrote: >>> James Silverton wrote: >>>> The slide rule that accompanied me until the last 15 years of my >>>> working life has an engineer's leather belt case that I never [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > manual, as I recall. I believe I bought the leatherette case > separately from the student's bookstore. My Lafayette's (F-428) case is of extremely hard leather. http://flickr.com/photos/kowalskirsflickr/2183404252/ SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:29:59 +0000: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I couldn't afford the leather case; my case is some sort of >leatherette. No belt loop on it. Mine was hard leatherette, the better to protect the device by, not soft leather. I'm not sure a student would want a leather one. Were they available at the time? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > Mine was hard leatherette, the better to protect the device by, not > soft leather. I'm not sure a student would want a leather one. Were > they available at the time? My leatherette case, which I believe was standard on the K&E log log duplex decitrig, is black. I thought the brown cases were all genuine leather. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Mine was hard leatherette, the better to protect the device by, not >> soft leather. I'm not sure a student would want a leather one. Were [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >duplex decitrig, is black. I thought the brown cases were all genuine >leather. Mine was light brown. Hard as it was, in order to maintain its shape, I don't see how it could have been made from real leather. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> Mine was hard leatherette, the better to protect the device by, not >>> soft leather. I'm not sure a student would want a leather one. Were [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Mine was light brown. Hard as it was, in order to maintain its shape, >I don't see how it could have been made from real leather. Scabbards for hunting knives are usually made of real leather, and are often formed in a hard shape. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >Scabbards for hunting knives are usually made of real leather, and are >often formed in a hard shape. There now. I'd have called it a scabbard if it enclosed a sword, but for a knife it would have to be "sheath". But it's made me wonder at what point on the scale a knife becomes a sword, and what else distinguishes them. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>Scabbards for hunting knives are usually made of real leather, and are >>often formed in a hard shape. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >what point on the scale a knife becomes a sword, and what else >distinguishes them. Yes, I agree. The word "sheath" just didn't come to mind. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>Scabbards for hunting knives are usually made of real leather, and are >>often formed in a hard shape. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > what point on the scale a knife becomes a sword, and what else > distinguishes them. A Hanger. either a short sword or a long knife. >On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:08:57 +0000, Wood Avens wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >A Hanger. either a short sword or a long knife. Bayonets seem to run through a good range from sword to knife. A good selection of Canadian Army bayonets is photographed here: http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/weapons/bayonets.htm Scabbard seems to be the word of choice. Perhaps a scabbard is rigid while a sheath is modestly flexible? And don't mention the frogs. SignaturePaul Paul Wolff filted: >Bayonets seem to run through a good range from sword to knife. A good >selection of Canadian Army bayonets is photographed here: >http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/weapons/bayonets.htm > >Scabbard seems to be the word of choice. Perhaps a scabbard is rigid >while a sheath is modestly flexible? And don't mention the frogs. I did once, but I think I got away with it....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>Scabbards for hunting knives are usually made of real leather, and are >>often formed in a hard shape. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >what point on the scale a knife becomes a sword, and what else >distinguishes them. Unless I missed it, the OED doesn't attach a number to a sword's minimum length. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland [..] >>There now. I'd have called it a scabbard if it enclosed a sword, but >>for a knife it would have to be "sheath". But it's made me wonder at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Unless I missed it, the OED doesn't attach a number to a sword's > minimum length. According to <http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/swords_faq_index.htm> "A sword is nothing more than a BIG knife." All that remains is to define BIG... SignatureLes (BrE) Leslie Danks filted: >Chuck Riggs wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >All that remains is to define BIG... Compare and contrast with the Japanese katana, wakizashi and tantô....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > A friend had one from PATCO, the controllers' union that Reagan fired. Not to be confused with the commuter railway that runs from Philadelphia to Lindenwold via the Benjamin Franklin Bridge. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Gadgetry abounded everywhere, almost all of which msb@vex.net | he could justify." -- Robert Asprin >> A friend had one from PATCO, the controllers' union that Reagan fired. > > Not to be confused with the commuter railway that runs from Philadelphia > to Lindenwold via the Benjamin Franklin Bridge. Or PALCO, the now defunct lumber company. Irwell filted: >>> A friend had one from PATCO, the controllers' union that Reagan fired. >> >> Not to be confused with the commuter railway that runs from Philadelphia >> to Lindenwold via the Benjamin Franklin Bridge. > >Or PALCO, the now defunct lumber company. Nor with panko, Japanese bread crumbs....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" R wrote on 17 Dec 2008 08:52:42 -0800: > Irwell filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Or PALCO, the now defunct lumber company. > Nor with panko, Japanese bread crumbs....r Now that's a magnificent switch. Panko (the name is apparently derived from Portuguese) is a very good alternative to standard bread crumbs and might be better described as bread flakes. I've recently come across it as the outer layer of California Roll sushi and it works well as long as you don't keep the sushi long enough to soften the flakes. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > As for the metal ruler, I have one right here. The clip is rusty but > the scale itself is stainless. On the back is a table of decimal [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > things that looks like it should be really handy but it isn't. I > wonder what it would fetch on eBay. It sounds like something I'd like (but be warned that I'm a cheapskate). SignatureThe wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. [Grace Murray Hopper] > > Yes, once we slung those slide rule on our belts, we gave up any > > chance of being liberated. > > Carrying a slide rule on my belt is something I never did. Yes, I > carried one alright, but never on my belt. I was just young enough that we were taught slide rule in high school, but I never used one in anger. By the time I started taking physics classes in college, I had a calculator that could do the basics. > I did wear a pocket > protector, though, loaded with all sorts of writing implements and a > little metal ruler (with a clip). When I joined the cumpnee, many engineers had pocket protectors, the kind with the built-in badge holder. They were alway trying to give me one, but I never used them. It was my experience that there was always someone nearby with a pen or ruler or whatever stuck in their pocket protector who lend you one. I've always been kind of minimalist about that sort of thing. Popular these days are the lanyard deals people wear around their necks and dangle their badges from. My badge is clipped to the collar of my polo shirt. Yeah, I have to lean over or take it off to wave in front of the reader, but I don't care. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) > I've always been kind of minimalist about that sort of thing. Popular > these days are the lanyard deals people wear around their necks and > dangle their badges from. My badge is clipped to the collar of my polo > shirt. Yeah, I have to lean over or take it off to wave in front of the > reader, but I don't care. Despite all the signs telling us we must wear our passes, I have kept mine in my pocket for 19 years without challenge. It's easy enough to fish out when approaching a door. SignatureDavid > > I've always been kind of minimalist about that sort of thing. > > Popular these days are the lanyard deals people wear around their [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > mine in my pocket for 19 years without challenge. It's easy enough > to fish out when approaching a door. Depends on which pocket. These days, my shirts don't have pockets (yay casual attire), and if I put badge in my pants pocket it's somewhat uncomfortable. Also prone to getting bent. In the old days, when there were guards at the entrances and such, not having your badge "prominently displayed on the upper left portion of the body" could cause trouble. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >>> I've always been kind of minimalist about that sort of thing. >>> Popular these days are the lanyard deals people wear around their [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > having your badge "prominently displayed on the upper left portion of > the body" could cause trouble. Front left trouser pocket. Guards were mostly relegated to back rooms once passes became clever enough to open doors. For 10 years or more, I've been waving my pass at the gate man at the only site we have left where there is a gate man (because it's also a distribution warehouse full of valuable kit). I discovered this very week that there's a pass reader on a post just before his lodge, and I could have caused the gate to open all this time without bothering him. SignatureDavid > I've always been kind of minimalist about that sort of thing. Popular > these days are the lanyard deals people wear around their necks and > dangle their badges from. I remember when those things were first distributed at my company. It was at about the same time that I started wearing reading glasses on a chain. My boss, an EE, remarked that he was worried about me with all those conductors around my neck. The badge went back onto my tie clip. (In my day we acted like professionals and wore coats and ties to work.) SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> I've always been kind of minimalist about that sort of thing. Popular >> these days are the lanyard deals people wear around their necks and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > (In my day we acted like professionals and wore coats and ties to >work.) A tie clip! Come to think of it many men had them in those days. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>> If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >loaded with all sorts of writing implements and a little metal ruler (with a >clip). I had one, too. They were yet another sign of a geek, if that is what I was in the early sixties. >Later, I became a programmer and unloaded the paraphernalia. In my early days as an engineer, before my job became more managerial than technical, I carried a pocket calculator some of the time. More often, I kept it in my desk. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >Yes, once we slung those slide rule on our belts, we gave up any >chance of being liberated. A yes. A K&E Log-Log Duplex Decitrig. About $26 in 1954 which was a lot of money then. Let me look up a handy-dandy inflation calculator: Whoa. About $200 in today's money. but it included the holster. It's easy to kid about the holsters, but a student at Rensselaer had a lot of stuff to carry about and the holster sure was handy. I also had to buy a kit of drafting tools for about the same amount. Still got it somewhere. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > I also had to buy a kit of drafting tools for about the same > amount. Still got it somewhere. I worked at Texas Instruments in the summer of 1957. Everybody in the office had at least occasional need to use a drafting table. An old hand told me that you can always tell a pro because he shows up with his drafting tools in an attache case. So I went out and bought a cheap leatherette attache case to store my drafting tools. I still have the case with the tools in it, but I haven't used any of that stuff -- except the triangles on the rare occasion that I want to draw a straight line -- in over 50 years. I even have a couple of those cheesecloth sacks full of art gum eraser shavings. I wonder what those would bring on eBay. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>> If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. >> >> I think Chuck was an engineer of the electrifying kind. Am I dead? Make that "Chuck is...", please. >About which I sometimes gently needle him. So far he's refrained from >responding in kind. Some of my best friends are electrical engineers. Some of mine are English majors. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Some of mine are English majors. I met those types only at Boeing, when, waiting for an engineering assignment, I briefly joined the technical editing group. Everywhere else I was one of the few who could put some coherent words on paper. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> Some of my best friends are electrical >>> engineers. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > assignment, I briefly joined the technical editing group. Everywhere else I > was one of the few who could put some coherent words on paper. In the 1950s SDC was so desperate for programmers that they would train anyone to be a programmer. Some of them came over to MITRE. I worked with one who had a degree in English. Another had a degree in Political Science. She was pretty good, but she had a habit of snapping her chewing gum. Aren't we good about updating the Subject line? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>>> Some of my best friends are electrical >>>> engineers. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Aren't we good about updating the Subject line? Yes, Bob C should be happy with this thread. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >assignment, I briefly joined the technical editing group. Everywhere else I >was one of the few who could put some coherent words on paper. You were management material, something they noticed in me early on, too. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>> If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > You were management material, something they noticed in me early on, > too. Well, yes and no -- my first manager wanted me to go back to college and get an MBA. I didn't do that, as I had no desire to become a manager. Then I was asked to take a Management Selection Test at Lockheed. Afterwards I was led to believe that my score was too high to fall in the desired range. I remember that my supervisor, who thought I was a troublemaker and therefore didn't like me, had to reveal the rest results to me. He was somewhat stunned. I disliked telling people what to do. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>>>>> If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >I disliked telling people what to do. I never looked on management that way. As professionals, the engineers in my office relied on the chain of command less and less as we progressed up the ladder. There were times I was eager for a word of advice from my boss, but after my formal training period was over, no boss bossed me around. We worked together. Like the rest of the engineers in my office, I generally knew what tasks were necessary. We'd sit down with the boss periodically to review our goals for the next six months or so and receive feedback from management when we didn't meet them or met them in some exceptional way. This "management by objectives" method worked quite well, I thought. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> I disliked telling people what to do. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > exceptional way. This "management by objectives" method worked quite > well, I thought. Oh, true enough. I did my best and was the happiest when left totally alone with my work. My responsibilities were understood when I first joined a particular project, and that was it. There was the yearly performance review with the accompanying raise, but that was strictly a formality, as I knew my job well. Also, I was the only one taking care of a particular segment of the project, so others had little or no bearing on the results I achieved. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> I disliked telling people what to do. >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >segment of the project, so others had little or no bearing on the results I >achieved. Many of our projects were organized in the same way, with one person ultimately responsible for each one. We'd get assistance on them as needed. Both NAVSEC and NAVELEX, where I worked, were very large organizations with a lot of expertise to draw on. One branch, section or individual worked with another, as needed. In other words, there was a lot of flexibility in the way we worked with each other, with the dynamics largely up to the individuals involved. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Some of mine are English majors. One of my sons was an English major, but I've forgiven him. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>>>> If I ever knew Chuck was an engineer I've forgotten what kind. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >One of my sons was an English major, but I've forgiven him. It took courage. Anyone can make a buck as an engineer, assuming he can get a BS degree from a decent college. In these times, it might take an advanced degree though, I couldn't say. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> One of my sons was an English major, but I've forgiven him. > > It took courage. Anyone can make a buck as an engineer, assuming he > can get a BS degree from a decent college. In these times, it might > take an advanced degree though, I couldn't say. That's not the half of it. He took his BA English and went to New York to look for a job. Just like in one of those old movies where the kid from the provinces goes to the Big Town to seek his fortune. A couple of weeks went by and he called to say he had found work as a copy editor at Reese Publications. "Who?" "They publish True Detective, Official Detective, and three similar magazines." He got his name on all five mastheads. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>> One of my sons was an English major, but I've forgiven him. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Official Detective, and three similar magazines." He got his name on >all five mastheads. He is in a cut-throat business. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> One of my sons was an English major, but I've forgiven him. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > He is in a cut-throat business. Was. Today he works in a research team at Duke U., writing up case studies. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>>>> One of my sons was an English major, but I've forgiven him. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Was. Today he works in a research team at Duke U., writing up case >studies. I don't know about him, but I know I'd prefer that. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >>> These are underground fires in coal mines. They are almost impossible > >>> to put out. The cited article says, "One coal fire in northern China, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > As I've said, drop bombs on the sites of the fires. Problem solved. How? They're /underground/. You're suggesting be bombing countryside where people live, with no guarantee of doing anything at all to the fire. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary Amethyst wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:15:21 -0000: > >>>> These are underground fires in coal mines. They are > >>>> almost impossible to put out. The cited article says, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> As I've said, drop bombs on the sites of the fires. Problem >> solved. > How? They're /underground/. You're suggesting be bombing > countryside where people live, with no guarantee of doing > anything at all to the fire. That's the problem. If you *could* cut off the oxygen supply the fire might go out but rocks can be porous. There's a pretty big coal seam fire still burning in Pennsylvania I believe. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Amethyst wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:15:21 -0000: >That's the problem. If you *could* cut off the oxygen supply the fire >might go out but rocks can be porous. There's a pretty big coal seam >fire still burning in Pennsylvania I believe. I expect there's a good reason why it's not being tapped for home heating. Or perhaps it is. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> Amethyst wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:15:21 -0000: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I expect there's a good reason why it's not being tapped for home >heating. Or perhaps it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_fire says thousands of such fires are burning around the world and lists a number of them. Eight of the listed are in the USA; one of them is the appropriately named Carbondale, Pennsylvania. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * [...] >> As I've said, drop bombs on the sites of the fires. Problem solved. > > How? They're /underground/. You're suggesting be bombing countryside > where people live, with no guarantee of doing anything at all to the > fire. At least there wouldn't be anybody left to moan about the smoke. SignatureLes (BrE) >>Another factor that can't be forgotten is global warming. No matter >>what Americans want, they must be weaned off gas guzzlers. What if the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >rogue states or rogue groups would be substantially less damaging to human >beings as a whole than would be the overall effects of harmful climate change. We live, like it or not, in a nuclear world where any number of imbalanced states and relationships, whether they be between Pakistan and India or we're talking about isolated, spooky states like Korea and Iran. They're all going to have nuclear weapons. The reemerging Russian Bear has them in quantities to destroy the world, of course, as does China, more unpredictable than ever now that it is sliding from its economic pinnacle. So nuclear weapons are here to stay for the foreseeable future. That future probably extends past the point where the Earth will be habitable by man if we keep fueling the fires of global warming. Recognizing it is a dangerous world and that we can do nothing about that, I say embrace nuclear energy in its fullest, using it to power new electric cars and other forms of transportation. If someone has a better answer, I have big ears. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the big > three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, reliable cars, That is simply not true, Chuck. What they've done for most of their time in business is provide what the customers want. Changing times have changed what the customers want. There are American hybrid cars now, and gas mileage is much greater than it used to be with American cars. > let them fail as quickly as possible. While they are shutting down, > the US government could incentivize Toyota, Honda and others to take > over the physical plants and, if they want them, the American auto > workers to go with them, soon to churn out cars that Americans want. > The impact on American unemployment could be minimal. I don't think your plan would be as impact-free as you think. For one thing, foreign ownership of US businesses means money leaving the country. SignatureMaria C. >> Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the big >> three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, reliable cars, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >changed what the customers want. There are American hybrid cars now, and >gas mileage is much greater than it used to be with American cars. In fact, Detroit's figurative arm had to be twisted to bring most of that about. Even now Detroit has been trying to get a federal law passed making the federal emissions standards pre-emptive. This would eliminate even stricter standards established by states. It is aimed particularly at California's stringent emissions laws. Many cars sold anywhere in the USA bear a "Meets California standards" sticker in them because California is such a huge market it was simpler to make all cars to California standards than to make them different for other parts of the country. It's been a bit eye-opening to consider a few simple Detroit actions. When a lot of imported cars were showing up in the USA in the 1950s they came with focused headlamps consisting of a bulb and reflector and a protective lens in front of them. Most Detroit iron used sealed beam headlamps and Detroit got a federal law passed mandating sealed beam headlamps for safety reasons. Cars like the VW Beetle became illegal until they were re-designed with sealed beam headlamps. Once quartz halogen lamps became availabe Detroit saw a good thing, but had the problem that federal law required sealed beams, which halogens weren't. So they got it changed back; suddenly, apparently, sealed beam headlamps weren't all that much safer. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the >>> big three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > standards than to make them different for other parts of the > country. I have trouble accepting that California's stringent emissions laws should be instituted nationwide. It would make more sense to me if emissions standards applied as needed. Not all areas have traffic as heavy as California (and the East Coast). *However*, I realize that varying standards would be a logistical and legal nightmare. I don't know the answer. I do think, though, that some of the things people expect from the American auto companies are pie-in-the-sky, over-the-top demands. > It's been a bit eye-opening to consider a few simple Detroit > actions. When a lot of imported cars were showing up in the USA > in the 1950s they came with focused headlamps consisting of a > bulb and reflector and a protective lens in front of them. Most > Detroit iron used sealed beam headlamps and Detroit got a federal > law passed mandating sealed beam headlamps for safety reasons. I don't know whether "Detroit" got a federal law passed. I assume by "Detroit," you mean the American auto companies and their suppliers. But the auto companies don't pass laws, and there are safety experts whose opinions Congress solicits. It is very possible that the sealed beams were indeed safer than what imported autos had. > Cars like the VW Beetle became illegal until they were > re-designed with sealed beam headlamps. Once quartz halogen lamps > became availabe Detroit saw a good thing, but had the problem > that federal law required sealed beams, which halogens weren't. > So they got it changed back; suddenly, apparently, sealed beam > headlamps weren't all that much safer. So, because something deemed to be better came along, "Detroit" should have ignored it and not bothered Congress to update the laws? I think you are being too "anti" about "Detroit." The American auto companies are not the evil-doers you (and/or others) seem to think they are. As an answer (sort of) to you and others who bring up the alleged superiority of imported cars, I have this to say: I don't believe it for a minute. I think American cars are as safe as any, and equal to or better in all other measures when compared to non-American-made autos. I will never buy an import -- even if I were to see one that costs a few hunred less than a comparable US auto. Note that I am not wishing for the failure of manufacturers in other countries; I am simply going to support the efforts of manufacturers right here where I live. It's not as if I support shabby products or poor efforts, you know. I'll close on that note. SignatureMaria C. >>>> Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the >>>> big three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >emissions standards applied as needed. Not all areas have traffic as >heavy as California (and the East Coast). I never said that California's emission laws should be applied nationally, although I might remind you that the atmosphere knows not state lines nor interntaional borders, and that California these days has far cleaner air than its historic reputation might indicate, and that because of those stringent standards. And I might add that some other parts of the country have worse air. >*However*, I realize that >varying standards would be a logistical and legal nightmare. Not if each state is allowed to impose its own standards. I'm not sure why inconvience to car makers should require California to lower its standards, whcih is what you seem to be arguing, and what Detroit wants to happen. >I don't >know the answer. I do think, though, that some of the things people >expect from the American auto companies are pie-in-the-sky, over-the-top >demands. Most of them seem to be being met by Honda, Toyota, et al, and right here in America at American auto plants not controlled by Detroit. >> It's been a bit eye-opening to consider a few simple Detroit >> actions. When a lot of imported cars were showing up in the USA [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >the auto companies don't pass laws, and there are safety experts whose >opinions Congress solicits. Are you that naive about the political process? >It is very possible that the sealed beams >were indeed safer than what imported autos had. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >So, because something deemed to be better came along, "Detroit" should >have ignored it and not bothered Congress to update the laws? What is your argument that insealed halogen lamps are safer tahn unsealed non-halogen lamps? >I think >you are being too "anti" about "Detroit." The American auto companies >are not the evil-doers you (and/or others) seem to think they are. I don't think they're "evil-doers"; I think they really believe they know what's best for teh American public. >As an answer (sort of) to you and others who bring up the alleged >superiority of imported cars, I have this to say: I don't believe it for >a minute. I think American cars are as safe as any, and equal to or >better in all other measures when compared to non-American-made autos. I >will never buy an import -- even if I were to see one that costs a few >hunred less than a comparable US auto. Chacun a son gout. >Note that I am not wishing for the failure of manufacturers in other >countries; I am simply going to support the efforts of manufacturers >right here where I live. They're not in Detroit or Flint but Toyota is right here in this country, employing Americans. >It's not as if I support shabby products or poor efforts, you know. > >I'll close on that note. Good idea. I suggest, though, that you obtain a copy of David Halberstam's "The Reckoning" and read it. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * [...] >> I have trouble accepting that California's stringent emissions laws >> should be instituted nationwide. It would make more sense to me if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I never said that California's emission laws should be applied > nationally, The implication was there. > ....although I might remind you that the atmosphere knows > not state lines nor interntaional borders, and that California > these days has far cleaner air than its historic reputation might > indicate, I'm glad to hear that. I've never been there, but I've certainly heard about the smog. > ....and that because of those stringent standards. And I > might add that some other parts of the country have worse air. Could be. And they may need different and better standards -- but not necessarily California standards. The causes of the poor or even less-than-perfect air quality, etc., could be entirely different. (Couldn't they?) >> *However*, I realize that >> varying standards would be a logistical and legal nightmare. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lower its standards, whcih is what you seem to be arguing, and > what Detroit wants to happen. Did I use the term "inconvience to car makers"? (I don't remember doing so.) I think mandating California standards in every US state might well be a bigger problem to lawmakers and those who enforce the standards than to the auto makers. (The people who vote for or against those lawmakers may have other ideas.) And as I just said (above) the causes of air quality, etc., in each state could be different. Measures that are part of California standards might not be necessary, say, in Wyoming. >> I don't know the answer. And I still don't. I just think more thought has to go into this entire matter. >> ....I do think, though, that some of the things people >> expect from the American auto companies are pie-in-the-sky, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > right here in America at American auto plants not controlled by > Detroit. I need to check out the details of what you've said (as to what demands are being met by Honda, etc., that are not being met by Ford, Chrysler, and GM, for instance). I'm not a car emissions expert by any means; I just don't like the slurs against American car makers, as if they have no interest in making a good, safe product. >>> It's been a bit eye-opening to consider a few simple Detroit >>> actions. When a lot of imported cars were showing up in the USA [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Are you that naive about the political process? Are you that jaded? Maybe we're both in the middle somewhere. [...] > What is your argument that insealed halogen lamps are safer tahn > unsealed non-halogen lamps? What is your argument that they aren't? Look, I've said I'm no expert, but I think you and others are assuming the worst of American car companies and their motives. And I'm not sure there's a good reason for that. >> I think >> you are being too "anti" about "Detroit." The American auto companies >> are not the evil-doers you (and/or others) seem to think they are. > > I don't think they're "evil-doers"; I think they really believe > they know what's best for teh American public. They know what the public wants, and they are always striving to produce exactly that. (Think about it -- why would they do otherwise?) Changes cannot be made overnight, though; and changes often cannot be made without massive outlays of money -- while the public wants the changes made at little or no extra charge. Not that I'm suggesting anyone take pity on automakers -- I just suggest that reasonability come into the matter. >> As an answer (sort of) to you and others who bring up the alleged >> superiority of imported cars, I have this to say: I don't believe it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Chacun a son gout. Sure. >> Note that I am not wishing for the failure of manufacturers in other >> countries; I am simply going to support the efforts of manufacturers >> right here where I live. > > They're not in Detroit or Flint but Toyota is right here in this > country, employing Americans. I'm aware that there are non-American car companies in this country. I'm of two minds about them, but I don't wish them failure. >> It's not as if I support shabby products or poor efforts, you know. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I suggest, though, that you obtain a copy of David Halberstam's > "The Reckoning" and read it. I was going to suggest something, but never mind. You probably wouldn't really like to come and tour an American auto plant, or talk to some typical auto workers. SignatureMaria C. >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >Did I use the term "inconvience to car makers"? (I don't remember doing >so.) You didn't. You used the phrase, "logistical and legal nightmare". >I think mandating California standards in every US state might well >be a bigger problem to lawmakers and those who enforce the standards >than to the auto makers. Nobody has done so. Nor has anybody suggested doing that. Where on earth did you get the idea I had suggested that? What I said was that Detroit was trying to get a law passed that would prevent California from using its standards in California. [...] >>> I don't know whether "Detroit" got a federal law passed. I assume by >>> "Detroit," you mean the American auto companies and their suppliers. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Are you that jaded? Maybe we're both in the middle somewhere. Right now we've already seen the Big Three come to Congress acting "business as usual, just give us the money" but this time it didn't work. But it still might. >[...] >> What is your argument that insealed halogen lamps are safer tahn [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >companies and their motives. And I'm not sure there's a good reason for >that. I am. >>> I think >>> you are being too "anti" about "Detroit." The American auto companies [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >They know what the public wants, and they are always striving to produce >exactly that. For the most part Detroit produced what it wanted to produce and convinced the American public that was what it wanted. Take a look at some old print adverts from the 1940s and 1950s, or even early TV commercials. By the end of the 1950s the first "foreign invasion" happened and it was enought to convince Detroit maybe they'd better make some small cars. Eentually, most of the cars beign imported int the first "foreign invasion" were crap and couldn't hold up to American driving conditions and they faded away, save for the VW. So did Degtroit's desire to make smaller cars. Here's the problem. If they made a small car selling for maybe $1200 (back then) they might make $200 on it, but if they make a big car selling for $3000 they maybe make $500 on it. Replacing the big cars they made with small cars just didn't make sense to them, and they had little incentive to do so. By the 1970s foreign cars, especially Japanese cars, had become very good and because of the OPEC crisis Detroit sort of tried to make smaller more fuel efficient cars, but the collapse of the OPEC cartle's high oil prices sort of knocked the props out from under that, in their mind. Detroit didn't look around and see the handwriting on the wall. >(Think about it -- why would they do otherwise?) I contend they didn't. >Changes >cannot be made overnight, though; and changes often cannot be made >without massive outlays of money -- while the public wants the changes >made at little or no extra charge. Not that I'm suggesting anyone take >pity on automakers -- I just suggest that reasonability come into the >matter. They've had almost fifty years to find a way to face the world, or at least thirty years from the Oil Crisis. How many more years do you want to give them? >>> As an answer (sort of) to you and others who bring up the alleged >>> superiority of imported cars, I have this to say: I don't believe it [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I'm aware that there are non-American car companies in this country. I'm >of two minds about them, but I don't wish them failure. They are replacing sales of American automobiles. Are you sure you don't, deep down, want them to fail? >>> It's not as if I support shabby products or poor efforts, you know. >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >really like to come and tour an American auto plant, or talk to some >typical auto workers. Ahem. I worked for General Motors when I was a young engineer. And I have toured an American auto factory. I have also worked for some other manufacturers as well as the nuclear power plant construction industry. I have a pretty good idea of what line workers are like. Just what are you suggesting a typical auto worker can tell me that I don't already know? Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> Not if each state is allowed to impose its own standards. I'm not >>> sure why inconvience to car makers should require California to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You didn't. You used the phrase, "logistical and legal > nightmare". And I meant a "logistical and legal nightmare." Your use of "inconvenience" put the whole matter in a different and much less serious light. That rather bothered me. >> I think mandating California standards in every US state might well >> be a bigger problem to lawmakers and those who enforce the standards [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > was that Detroit was trying to get a law passed that would > prevent California from using its standards in California. I misunderstood what you were saying. Here's the paragraph in question: In fact, Detroit's figurative arm had to be twisted to bring most of that about. Even now Detroit has been trying to get a federal law passed making the federal emissions standards pre-emptive. This would eliminate even stricter standards established by states. It is aimed particularly at California's stringent emissions laws. Many cars sold anywhere in the USA bear a "Meets California standards" sticker in them because California is such a huge market it was simpler to make all cars to California standards than to make them different for other parts of the country. I guess I just retained the last sentence when I formed my reply. > [...] >>> Are you that naive about the political process? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > acting "business as usual, just give us the money" but this time > it didn't work. But it still might. Maybe the attitude you (and others) perceive isn't quite what you think. >> [...] >>> What is your argument that insealed halogen lamps are safer tahn [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I am. I think we can both agree that we are coming from different camps, and our opinions are going to differ. You think your opinions are better, and I think mine are. Duel at 5 AM? [...] Maria C. >>>> Not if each state is allowed to impose its own standards. I'm not >>>> sure why inconvience to car makers should require California to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> You didn't. You used the phrase, "logistical and legal >> nightmare". >And I meant a "logistical and legal nightmare." Your use of >"inconvenience" put the whole matter in a different and much less >serious light. That rather bothered me. Sometimes irony is wasted. >>> I think mandating California standards in every US state might well >>> be a bigger problem to lawmakers and those who enforce the standards [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >standards than to make them different for other parts of the >country. I don't see that "Even now Detroit has been trying to get a federal law passed making the federal emissions standards pre-emptive. This would eliminate even stricter standards established bystates." is ambivalent in any way. >I guess I just retained the last sentence when I formed my reply. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Maybe the attitude you (and others) perceive isn't quite what you think. A lot of others. Including Congresscritters they were testifying before. >>> [...] >>>> What is your argument that insealed halogen lamps are safer tahn [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >our opinions are going to differ. You think your opinions are better, >and I think mine are. Our opinions aren't what matters. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> I think we can both agree that we are coming from different camps, >> and our opinions are going to differ. You think your opinions are >> better, and I think mine are. > > Our opinions aren't what matters. Of course they aren't. Facts matter, and someone else will be deciding which ones. By the way, you ignored my parting invitation, which was "Duel at 5 AM?" I should have said "Duel at dawn?" of course. But never mind. You live too far away. SignatureMaria C. I forgot to reply to the following in the post I sent a few minutes ago: >>> I suggest, though, that you obtain a copy of David Halberstam's >>> "The Reckoning" and read it. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Just what are you suggesting a typical auto worker can tell me > that I don't already know? Maybe how things are now, rather than how they were when you were younger? (Btw, I had forgotten that you worked in the field previously. Had I remembered, I would probably have brought up the then/now issues before this.) SignatureMaria C. >> Just what are you suggesting a typical auto worker can tell me >> that I don't already know? > >Maybe how things are now, rather than how they were when you were >younger? In what ways do you think they're different? >(Btw, I had forgotten that you worked in the field previously. Had I >remembered, I would probably have brought up the then/now issues before >this.) Do you really think they're that different? I don't see the union membership pressuring the union leaders to go along with eliminating some of the more costly aspects for the companies. Frankly, I'm inclined to think the unions and management deserve each other. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> Just what are you suggesting a typical auto worker can tell me >>> that I don't already know? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > In what ways do you think they're different? I don't know. It was just a guess. Things seem to change over time. >> (Btw, I had forgotten that you worked in the field previously. Had I >> remembered, I would probably have brought up the then/now issues [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > membership pressuring the union leaders to go along with > eliminating some of the more costly aspects for the companies. I've heard that union leaders are a tough breed. Pressuring them to help the companies in any way would probably be a Big Mistake on a union member's part. > Frankly, I'm inclined to think the unions and management deserve > each other. A two-way street? It's been one-way at times in the past. But on the whole, you may be right. SignatureMaria C. >> Frankly, I'm inclined to think the unions and management deserve >> each other. > >A two-way street? It's been one-way at times in the past. But on the >whole, you may be right. The days of that one-way street with management in the catbird seat pretty much ended with the labor problems of the 1930s. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >I was going to suggest something, but never mind. You probably wouldn't >really like to come and tour an American auto plant, or talk to some >typical auto workers. I have always found this issue of "American" a red herring. First off, the foreign companies manufacturing autos in the US aren't importing their work force. The major difference between those workers and "American" workers is unions (I am not anti-union). And secondly, Detroit has been using foreign made components for a very long time. Which always made me ask the question, why should I buy American when the American car companies don't? Why is Detroit in the fix it is today? The answer is obviously simple: it's management. I don't think there is any easy answer to fix what's happening, but one thing is certain; the first thing that needs fixing is management. I'm very unhappy that Detroit's auto workers are getting it in the neck. I don't see how we can fix their problems soon. I know they are willing to sacrifice. I don't think even their most austere sacrifices will help the majority of workers. The only thing, IMO, that is left for them is to forego the auto industry and strike out into new areas. It isn't easy, but it can be done. (I was forced many years ago to make such decisions more than once, and fortunately I reinvented my career and myself into something economically viable.) Maria, maybe you think I should be a Republican. Forget it. My political philosophy is what's taught in high school civics: the primary function of government is the welfare of its people. My view of "its people" and the GOP's is not the same. >I'm very unhappy that Detroit's auto workers are getting it in the neck. >I don't see how we can fix their problems soon. I know they are willing >to sacrifice. I'll agree the moment I see autoworkers agreeing to pay and benefit cuts to save their jobs. >I don't think even their most austere sacrifices will help >the majority of workers. The only thing, IMO, that is left for them is >to forego the auto industry and strike out into new areas. It isn't >easy, but it can be done. (I was forced many years ago to make such >decisions more than once, and fortunately I reinvented my career and >myself into something economically viable.) Being an autoworker isn't really a "career", and it can be pretty hard to retrain for another field without the funds to go without working, Not to mention most up and coming jobs today aren't in the rust belt, so major moves have to be made from houses no one will buy. I have some skills along with my degree in physics that served me well in the past. But try to get a job as a pen and ink drafter today, even if you have LeRoy epxperience. >Maria, maybe you think I should be a Republican. Forget it. My political >philosophy is what's taught in high school civics: the primary function >of government is the welfare of its people. My view of "its people" and >the GOP's is not the same. Yep. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> I was going to suggest something, but never mind. You probably >> wouldn't really like to come and tour an American auto plant, or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Which always made me ask the question, why should I buy American when > the American car companies don't? I think less than 50% are foreign components. You could at least buy half a car from the one of the "Big Three." (Yes, I'm joking.) > Why is Detroit in the fix it is today? The answer is obviously simple: > it's management. I don't think there is any easy answer to fix what's > happening, but one thing is certain; the first thing that needs fixing > is management. If you say so, okay. > I'm very unhappy that Detroit's auto workers are getting it in the > neck. I don't see how we can fix their problems soon. I know they are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > years ago to make such decisions more than once, and fortunately I > reinvented my career and myself into something economically viable.) But how many thousands of you did the same thing at approximately the same time? > Maria, maybe you think I should be a Republican. I think you should be what you're comfortable with being. > .... Forget it. My > political philosophy is what's taught in high school civics: the > primary function of government is the welfare of its people. My view > of "its people" and the GOP's is not the same. I, a Republican, believe that the government should be looking out for the welfare of all "its people." No one should be pushed out because of their political leanings or because they happen to be shift-workers instead of managers or owners... or even if they are owners or managers instead of shift-workers. It's that last part that some have trouble accepting. We're all in this together. Differing views can mean forcing us to settle differences so that everyone is fairly treated. Waxing philosophical, SignatureMaria C. >>> I was going to suggest something, but never mind. You probably >>> wouldn't really like to come and tour an American auto plant, or [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I think less than 50% are foreign components. You could at least buy >half a car from the one of the "Big Three." (Yes, I'm joking.) Does "foreign" include Canadian? Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > Does "foreign" include Canadian? Not to me. SignatureMaria C. >> Does "foreign" include Canadian? > >Not to me. Largely due to questions of who owns the North Pole oil. they are acting more like a foreign nation than ever have. America needs them for their uranium and we may need them for their oil one day, as they know. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> Does "foreign" include Canadian? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > for their uranium and we may need them for their oil one day, as they > know. Ahem. We need them now, and it looks as though we have them! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabasca_Oil_Sands And http://tinyurl.com/57zn5l for ( http://www.ualberta.ca/PARKLAND/research/perspectives/LaxerClarkeCampbellMar06Op Ed.htm ) >>>> Does "foreign" include Canadian? >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >( >http://www.ualberta.ca/PARKLAND/research/perspectives/LaxerClarkeCampbellMar06Op Ed.htm ) Too many words, Pat. My reading speed isn't good enough, especially not five minutes before tea and computer shut down for the day, as is my policy. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >>> Does "foreign" include Canadian? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >for their uranium and we may need them for their oil one day, as they >know. Wouldn't that require them lying down in a peat bog for a few thousand years first?...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>> Does "foreign" include Canadian? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >for their uranium and we may need them for their oil one day, as they >know. No problem. The US can just annex Canada. Except for Quebec, which would probably go independent. I have had a lot of Canadian friends and once lived in Canada, so I have found many of their buttons to push. At the time of the flag debate I used to tell them that their flag should have thirteen red and white strips and a blue canton with sixty stars. That usually started a row. Way off the subject: I thought that that the proposed flag with the red maple leaf and blue bars at the ends far superior to the one finally adopted with red bars at each end, but the former was proposed by the opposition. It went far better with the Canadian motto, "A Mari usque ad Mare". Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >Way off the subject: I thought that that the proposed flag with >the red maple leaf and blue bars at the ends far superior to the >one finally adopted with red bars at each end, but the former was >proposed by the opposition. It went far better with the Canadian >motto, "A Mari usque ad Mare". Loose translation: "what the hell is Mary doing with my horse?"...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>>> Does "foreign" include Canadian? >>> Not to me. >> Largely due to questions of who owns the North Pole oil. they are >> acting more like a foreign nation than ever have. America needs >> them for their uranium and we may need them for their oil one day, >> as they know. > No problem. The US can just annex Canada. Except for Quebec, > which would probably go independent. Would you consider just annexing Alberta? It has most of the oil and I, for one, am about ready to let it go. > I have had a lot of Canadian friends and once lived in Canada, so > I have found many of their buttons to push. At the time of the > flag debate I used to tell them that their flag should have > thirteen red and white strips and a blue canton with sixty stars. > That usually started a row. We were safe from Bush, being a nation of thirty million blue-state voters. Our farthest-right-wing province, Alberta, is to the left of Vermont. Now, though, we're starting to feel uneasy again. > Way off the subject: I thought that that the proposed flag with > the red maple leaf and blue bars at the ends far superior to the > one finally adopted with red bars at each end, but the former was > proposed by the opposition. It went far better with the Canadian > motto, "A Mari usque ad Mare". The problem was that Canada's heraldic colours are red and white, or maybe gules and argent. And we never would have stopped arguing about a third strip for the Arctic Ocean: the PC version of the motto these days is "sea to sea to sea". On 09 Dec 2008, Hatunen wrote re: 1964-ish Canadian flag debate > Way off the subject: I thought that that the proposed flag with > the red maple leaf and blue bars at the ends far superior to the > one finally adopted with red bars at each end, but the former > was proposed by the opposition. It went far better with the > Canadian motto, "A Mari usque ad Mare". I liked the red/white/blue one as well -- I recall buying one in support of it at the time the issue was being decided. (I was 12.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed Dave Hatunen: > I thought that that the proposed [Canadian] flag with > the red maple leaf and blue bars at the ends Actually, that design had three maple leaves on it. > far superior to the one finally adopted with red bars at each end... Disagree. Graphic simplicity wins. > but the former was proposed by the opposition. Wrong; it was produced by the Liberals under Pearson when they were in power. The opposition PCs under Diefenbaker preferred the existing Canadian Red Ensign, which incorporated British's Union Jack in the same way that the present flags of such places as Australia, Fiji, New Zealand, and Hawaii do. (The Red Ensign was never the official flag of Canada, and there were periods where the Union Jack was used, which is why it was visible on the 1990s design of the $100 bill while some other denominations, featuring different prime ministers, showed the Red Ensign.) Anyway, the Liberals reacted to criticism of the Pearson-backed design by forming a multi-party committee to investigate alternatives. It was this committee came up with the chosen flag, inspired by that of the Royal Military College in Kingston, Ontario. > It went far better with the Canadian motto, "A Mari usque ad Mare". True, but Canada's official colors have been red and white since 1921, not red, white, and blue. Also, the color balance made the blue-bar design it look like a symbol of disunity -- both coasts united against the middle, rather like the "red states and blue states" thing. (Of course, on the present flag, the two silhouette faces formed by the white part don't look too happy either...) SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "You can fool too many of the people msb@vex.net too much of the time." -- James Thurber My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark wrote on Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:25:25 -0600: > Dave Hatunen: >> I thought that that the proposed [Canadian] flag with >> the red maple leaf and blue bars at the ends > Actually, that design had three maple leaves on it. >> far superior to the one finally adopted with red bars at each >> end... > Disagree. Graphic simplicity wins. >> but the former was proposed by the opposition. > Wrong; it was produced by the Liberals under Pearson when they > were in power. The opposition PCs under Diefenbaker preferred [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > other denominations, featuring different prime ministers, > showed the Red Ensign.) > Anyway, the Liberals reacted to criticism of the > Pearson-backed design by forming a multi-party committee to > investigate alternatives. It was this committee came up with > the chosen flag, inspired by that of the Royal Military > College in Kingston, Ontario. >> It went far better with the Canadian motto, "A Mari usque ad >> Mare". > True, but Canada's official colors have been red and white > since 1921, not red, white, and blue. Also, the color balance > made the blue-bar design it look like a symbol of disunity -- > both coasts united against the middle, rather like the "red > states and blue states" thing. > (Of course, on the present flag, the two silhouette faces > formed by the white part don't look too happy either...) It could be useful to point out that, like Australia and New Zealand, Canada's flag was the "blue" ensign with the Dominion coat of arms. New Zealand, whose flag features a stylized Southern Cross like Australia has sometines used the red ensign to differentiate. The present Canadian flag is quite distinctive tho' I like the version with a cannabis leaf instead of a maple leaf. For example: http://tinyurl.com/6zcwrg SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not Mark Brader: >> The opposition ... preferred >> the existing Canadian Red Ensign, which incorporated British's >> Union Jack in the same way that the present flags of such >> places as Australia, Fiji, New Zealand, and Hawaii do. James Silverton: > It could be useful to point out that, like Australia and New Zealand, > Canada's flag was the "blue" ensign with the Dominion coat of arms. It could be useful if it was correct. As I said in the text you quoted, Canada used a red ensign, *not* a blue one like Australia and New Zealand. And while the Canadian Red Ensign did feature our coat of arms, the Australian and New Zealand ones do not -- as *you* said, they use depictions of the Southern Cross. Incidentally, when the Canadian maple leaf flag became official, two provinces -- Ontario and Manitoba -- promptly adopted versions of the Red Ensign as their provincial flags, in each case showing the provincial coat of arms where the Canadian one had been. Neither province had previously had a provincial flag; I'm not sure how many did have them then, but now they all do. SignatureMark Brader | "He's suffering from Politician's Logic." Toronto | "Something must be done, this is something, therefore msb@vex.net | we must do it." -- Lynn & Jay: YES, PRIME MINISTER My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark wrote on Tue, 09 Dec 2008 22:55:59 -0600: > Mark Brader: >>> The opposition ... preferred >>> the existing Canadian Red Ensign, which incorporated >>> British's Union Jack in the same way that the present flags >>> of such places as Australia, Fiji, New Zealand, and Hawaii >>> do. > James Silverton: >> It could be useful to point out that, like Australia and New >> Zealand, Canada's flag was the "blue" ensign with the >> Dominion coat of arms. > It could be useful if it was correct. As I said in the text > you quoted, Canada used a red ensign, *not* a blue one like > Australia and New Zealand. And while the Canadian Red Ensign > did feature our coat of arms, the Australian and New Zealand > ones do not -- as *you* said, they use depictions of the > Southern Cross. > Incidentally, when the Canadian maple leaf flag became > official, two provinces -- Ontario and Manitoba -- promptly > adopted versions of the Red Ensign as their provincial flags, > in each case showing the provincial coat of arms where the > Canadian one had been. I believe it's a case where everyone is right. Quite probably, Canadians did use the red ensign with the Canadian coat of arms but the *official* flag was the blue ensign until 1945 when the red ensign was adopted as a "distinctly Canadian flag" and started an argument culminating in the maple leaf flag of 1965.. Blue ensigns with badges were the usual flags for dominions or colonies of Britain. The red ensign is technically the merchant shipping flag. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > I believe it's a case where everyone is right. Quite probably, > Canadians did use the red ensign with the Canadian coat of arms but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > were the usual flags for dominions or colonies of Britain. The red > ensign is technically the merchant shipping flag. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Red_Ensign "Canada's 'official' flag was the Royal Union Flag until 1946." The red ensign was approved for merchant ships from 1892 and the blue ensign was approved for ships owned by the Canadian government from 1868 (and was the jack of the RCN), with the red ensign the commonly- used unofficial flag from 1868. And quasi-official: The first Canadian Red Ensigns were used in Sir John A. Macdonald's time. The Governor General at the time of Macdonald's death, Lord Stanley, wrote to London in 1891: ... the Dominion Government has encouraged by precept and example the use on all public buildings throughout the provinces of the Red Ensign with the Canadian badge on the fly... [which] has come to be considered as the recognized flag of the Dominion, both ashore and afloat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flag_Debate SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |_Bauplan_ is just the German word 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |for blueprint. Typically, one Palo Alto, CA 94304 |switches languages to indicate |profundity. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Richard Dawkins (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Mark wrote on Tue, 09 Dec 2008 22:55:59 -0600: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >for dominions or colonies of Britain. The red ensign is technically the >merchant shipping flag. I thought the Australian and NZ flags had always used blue, but my trusty "Philips' Record Atlas 1941" has them both, as well as Canada, red. The only one of the "dominion" flags in blue is Newfoundland. There has obviously been more variation over the years than most of us realised! SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" Don wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:19:34 +0000: >> Mark wrote on Tue, 09 Dec 2008 22:55:59 -0600: >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> usual flags for dominions or colonies of Britain. The red >> ensign is technically the merchant shipping flag. > I thought the Australian and NZ flags had always used blue, > but my trusty "Philips' Record Atlas 1941" has them both, as > well as Canada, red. The only one of the "dominion" flags in > blue is Newfoundland. There has obviously been more variation > over the years than most of us realised! I seem to remember seeing Oz and NZ merchant shipping flags with stars on the red background. I've even seen a merchant flag for Bermuda that was red rather the civil blue ensign. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not Mark Brader: >>>> The opposition ... preferred the existing Canadian Red Ensign, >>>> which incorporated British's Union Jack ... James Silverton: >>> It could be useful to point out that, like Australia and New >>> Zealand, Canada's flag was the "blue" ensign with the >>> Dominion coat of arms. Mark Brader: >> It could be useful if it was correct. As I said in the text >> you quoted, Canada used a red ensign, *not* a blue one like >> Australia and New Zealand. ... James Silverton: > I believe it's a case where everyone is right. No, it's a case where *I'm* right and you're making things up. > Quite probably, Canadians did use the red ensign with the Canadian > coat of arms but the *official* flag was the blue ensign until 1945... No, it wasn't. There was *no* official flag until 1965, but the *red* ensign was used unofficially. > Blue ensigns with badges were the usual flags for dominions or > colonies of Britain. The red ensign is technically the merchant > shipping flag. True, which reflects Canada's origins based on overseas trade (the Hudson's Bay Company and all that). SignatureMark Brader "By this time I was feeling guilty. No, correction, Toronto I was feeling that I *should* feel guilty ..." msb@vex.net -- Jude Devereaux My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark wrote on Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:26:20 -0600: > Mark Brader: >>>>> The opposition ... preferred the existing Canadian Red >>>>> Ensign, which incorporated British's Union Jack ... > James Silverton: >>>> It could be useful to point out that, like Australia and >>>> New Zealand, Canada's flag was the "blue" ensign with >>>> the Dominion coat of arms. > Mark Brader: >>> It could be useful if it was correct. As I said in the text >>> you quoted, Canada used a red ensign, *not* a blue one like >>> Australia and New Zealand. ... > James Silverton: >> I believe it's a case where everyone is right. > No, it's a case where *I'm* right and you're making things up. >> Quite probably, Canadians did use the red ensign with the >> Canadian coat of arms but the *official* flag was the blue >> ensign until 1945... > No, it wasn't. There was *no* official flag until 1965, but > the *red* ensign was used unofficially. >> Blue ensigns with badges were the usual flags for dominions >> or colonies of Britain. The red ensign is technically the >> merchant shipping flag. > True, which reflects Canada's origins based on overseas trade > (the Hudson's Bay Company and all that). If it makes you feel good about an unimportant semantics, you may well be right. Didn't Canadians also fly the Union Jack ("Union Flag" I suppose to be precise)? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not [flag debate] > Didn't Canadians also fly the Union Jack ("Union > Flag" I suppose to be precise)? That's what they flew at my primary school in Ottawa (1947-50); and we sang "God Save the King", not "O Canada". I remember my uncle (RCAF during the war) saying at the time of the GFD that he hadn't seen the Red Ensign while enlisted-- it was always the Union Jack. That agrees with something upthread (a linked wikiarticle, I think) that said the Union Flag flew over Parliament throughout the war. > [flag debate] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > with something upthread (a linked wikiarticle, I think) that said the > Union Flag flew over Parliament throughout the war. Data point of uncertain significance: In /The Forest/, an account of a backwoods trip in Canada, the USan Stewart Edward White refers to "an English flag". The illustration in my copy, though in black and white, clearly shows an undefaced red ensign. The book appeared in 1903, but my edition is undated. I don't even know if the pictures, which are unattributed, had the author's imprimatur. The description mentions also that a buggy (for the carriage of a successful parliamentary candidate) was decorated with red and white "Silesia". (I suppose "Silesia" in this sense may be some kind of ribbon, but it isn't in COD9, and OED seems to be shut at the moment.) SignatureMike. >> [flag debate] >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >"Silesia". (I suppose "Silesia" in this sense may be some kind of >ribbon, but it isn't in COD9, and OED seems to be shut at the moment.) It opened for me. Silesia 1. Used attrib. with cloth, lawn, etc. = next. 1674 BLOUNT Glossogr. (ed. 4) s.v. Sleasie Holland, That onely is properly Slesia, or Silesia linnen cloth, which is made in, and comes from the Countrey Silesia in Germany. [1696 J. F. Merch. Wareho. laid open 28 Being called Sleasie-Lawns, the name Sleasia it takes from a town called Sleasia in Germany.] 1710 WHITWORTH Acc. Russia (1758) 82 The Hollanders..bring wines, paper,..brocades, Silesia cloth, and all sorts of gallanteries. 1712 E. COOKE Voy. S. Sea 363, 3 of Silesia Linnen. b. A fine linen or cotton fabric originally manufactured in Silesia. 1727 W. MATHER Young Man's Comp. 411 The Commodities..exported..are Iron, Copper, Slesias, Sheets, Sayes [etc.]. 1764 Ann. Reg. 107 Fine printed linens of all sorts, cambricks, Britannias, Silesias, hats, etc. 1769 Public Advertiser 14 Nov. 3/3 Buckrams, glazed Linens,..and Quadruple Silesias. 1800 Hull Advertiser 3 May 2/2, 10 pieces containing 1223 ells of 7-eights fine white Silesia. 1807 J. HALL Trav. Scot. I. 213 The principal manufacture of Newburgh is that of Silesias. 1893 Outing XXII. 122/2 Some dull-tinted light cloth, as lawn, cambric or silesia. It's also the distinctive name of a variety of lettuce, but my gues is that this wasn't what the carriage was decorated with. I looked it up because I remembered Silesia from somewhere, and I hoped the OED would prod my memory, but it hasn't. It might be somewhere in E E Nesbit. Re earlier inthe thread: I was brought up (immediately post-war) to call the red, white and blue flag of the UK the Union Jack. That's what everyone called it when we hung them out at the Coronation. When people (relatively recently) started calling it the Union flag instead, it really sounded wrongity wrong wrong. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ [...] > Re earlier inthe thread: I was brought up (immediately post-war) to > call the red, white and blue flag of the UK the Union Jack. That's > what everyone called it when we hung them out at the Coronation. When > people (relatively recently) started calling it the Union flag > instead, it really sounded wrongity wrong wrong. I think it's always been called the "Union flag" in the Scout movement. SignatureMike. >>> [flag debate] >>>> Didn't Canadians also fly the Union Jack ("Union >>>> Flag" I suppose to be precise)? >>> That's what they flew at my primary school in Ottawa (1947-50); >>> and we sang "God Save the King", not "O Canada". I remember my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> wikiarticle, I think) that said the Union Flag flew over >>> Parliament throughout the war. >> Data point of uncertain significance: >> In /The Forest/, an account of a backwoods trip in Canada, the USan >> Stewart Edward White refers to "an English flag". The illustration >> in my copy, though in black and white, clearly shows an undefaced >> red ensign. The book appeared in 1903, but my edition is undated. >> I don't even know if the pictures, which are unattributed, had the >> author's imprimatur. Sir John A. ran under the same flag in the well-known (round here) campaign poster shown in the wikiparticle Evan linked to, upthread: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:John_A_Macdonald_election_poster_1891.jpg >> The description mentions also that a buggy (for the carriage of a >> successful parliamentary candidate) was decorated with red and >> white "Silesia". (I suppose "Silesia" in this sense may be some >> kind of ribbon, but it isn't in COD9, and OED seems to be shut at >> the moment.) Bunting, then? > It opened for me. > Silesia > 1. Used attrib. with cloth, lawn, etc. = next. > 1674 BLOUNT Glossogr. (ed. 4) s.v. Sleasie Holland, That onely is [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > that of Silesias. 1893 Outing XXII. 122/2 Some dull-tinted light > cloth, as lawn, cambric or silesia. The OEtymologyD says that ther OED is against the notion that this is the origin of the word "sleazy" but, from the above, it looks like a good bet to me. > It's also the distinctive name of a variety of lettuce, but my guess > is that this wasn't what the carriage was decorated with. Maybe they had choux? > I looked it up because I remembered Silesia from somewhere, and I > hoped the OED would prod my memory, but it hasn't. It might be > somewhere in E E Nesbit. > Re earlier inthe thread: I was brought up (immediately post-war) to > call the red, white and blue flag of the UK the Union Jack. That's > what everyone called it when we hung them out at the Coronation. > When people (relatively recently) started calling it the Union flag > instead, it really sounded wrongity wrong wrong. To me too, but I tried to be even-handed. It seems to me that this was discussed here at one point, and the conclusion was that both forms are correct. James Silverton: > If it makes you feel good about an unimportant semantics, you may well > be right. Well, I'm not color-blind. > Didn't Canadians also fly the Union Jack ("Union Flag" I > suppose to be precise)? Not much when I was a boy, but earlier, certainly. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Remember the Golgafrinchans" msb@vex.net -- Pete Granger Mark wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:29:26 -0600: > James Silverton: >> If it makes you feel good about an unimportant semantics, you >> may well be right. > Well, I'm not color-blind. >> Didn't Canadians also fly the Union Jack ("Union Flag" I >> suppose to be precise)? > Not much when I was a boy, but earlier, certainly. I thought the argument was about "official" and a quick scan produced several references to the Union Flag as the "Official flag of Canada". You may have noticed that other Canadians' experiences differ from yours but they may not have been kids at the same time or in the same village. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Mark wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:29:26 -0600: >> James Silverton: >>> If it makes you feel good about an unimportant semantics, you >>> may well be right. >> Well, I'm not color-blind. >>> Didn't Canadians also fly the Union Jack ("Union Flag" I >>> suppose to be precise)? >> Not much when I was a boy, but earlier, certainly. > I thought the argument was about "official" and a quick scan > produced several references to the Union Flag as the "Official flag > of Canada". You may have noticed that other Canadians' experiences > differ from yours but they may not have been kids at the same time > or in the same village. True. Mark lives in the biggest village in the country, while I live in the capital village. CDB wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:35:58 -0500: >> Mark wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:29:26 -0600: >>> James Silverton: >>>> If it makes you feel good about an unimportant semantics, >>>> you may well be right. >>> Well, I'm not color-blind. >>>> Didn't Canadians also fly the Union Jack ("Union Flag" I >>>> suppose to be precise)? >>> Not much when I was a boy, but earlier, certainly. >> I thought the argument was about "official" and a quick scan >> produced several references to the Union Flag as the >> "Official flag of Canada". You may have noticed that other >> Canadians' experiences differ from yours but they may not >> have been kids at the same time or in the same village. >True. Mark lives in the biggest village in the country, while I live >in the capital village. Sorry, I did not mean to suggest that either of you lived in villages *now*. Neither do I since DC is hardly that if a little parochial sometimes. One of the best incentives for me to obtain an education was that without it I might be stuck in the small town where I was brought up. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > CDB wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:35:58 -0500: [carry on up the flagpole] >>> I thought the argument was about "official" and a quick scan >>> produced several references to the Union Flag as the >>> "Official flag of Canada". You may have noticed that other >>> Canadians' experiences differ from yours but they may not >>> have been kids at the same time or in the same village. >> True. Mark lives in the biggest village in the country, while I >> live in the capital village. > Sorry, I did not mean to suggest that either of you lived in > villages *now*. You had a point. At the time referred to, I lived in Eastview, a village entirely surrounded by Ottawa. On behalf of my fellow villagers, no 'fense taken anyway. > Neither do I since DC is hardly that if a little > parochial sometimes. One of the best incentives for me to obtain > an education was that without it I might be stuck in the small town > where I was brought up. James Silverton: > I thought the argument was about "official" I didn't think there was an argument; I was only correcting your erroneous statements about the blue ensign. > and a quick scan produced several references to the Union Flag as the > "Official flag of Canada". Let's say that it sort of inherited official status from Canada's colonial days. But it was never officially *adopted* as *Canada's* flag. > You may have noticed that other Canadians' experiences differ from > yours but they may not have been kids at the same time or in the same > village. I was posting based on what I've read. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Information! ... We want information!" msb@vex.net -- The Prisoner >James Silverton: >> I thought the argument was about "official" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Let's say that it sort of inherited official status from Canada's colonial >days. But it was never officially *adopted* as *Canada's* flag. I don't supposed it occurred to most people that Canada needed its "own" flag, any more than it needed its own monarch or its own citizenship, until the time arrived when lack of those things began to seem embarrassing. That, I think, began to be seen as a significant problem only after WWII, about the time the "great flag debate" began. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" > Mark Brader: >> Quite probably, Canadians did use the red ensign with the Canadian >> coat of arms but the *official* flag was the blue ensign until 1945... > > No, it wasn't. There was *no* official flag until 1965, but the > *red* ensign was used unofficially. What do you make of In 1945, Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King, having flown the Union Jack over Parliament throughout the war, made the Canadian Red Ensign the official Canadian flag by Order-in-Council. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flag_Debate The Canadian Red Ensign, through history, tradition and custom was finally formalized on September 5, 1945, when the Governor General of Canada signed an Order-in-Council (P.C. 5888) which stated that "The Red Ensign with the Shield of the Coat of arms in the fly (to be referred to as 'The Canadian Red Ensign') may be flown from buildings owned or occupied by the Canadian federal Government within or without Canada shall be appropriate to fly as a distinctive Canadian flag." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_red_ensign That sounds to me as though the red ensign was official from 1945. Hmmm... Looking at how it was reported in the _NY Times_, I see that it was presented as "They're going to pick an official flag, but in the meantime the Canadian Red Ensign 'will be used for official purposes'." SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It is one thing to be mistaken; it is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |quite another to be willfully Palo Alto, CA 94304 |ignorant | Cecil Adams kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Mark Brader: > > No, it wasn't. There was *no* official flag until 1965, but the > > *red* ensign was used unofficially. Evan Kirshenbaum: > What do you make of > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flag_Debate As between Wikipedia and Flags of the World, I know which one I'll believe. # 1945-09-05 # # A Canadian order in council allows the Canadian Red Ensign to be used # on federal buildings inside and outside Canada until a national flag # for Canada is designed. The Canadian Red Ensign returns to the # Parliament buildings. http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca-reden.html It seems it was allowed to be used on federal buildings even though *not* the official national flag, and that's all. But see below. > ... an Order-in-Council (P.C. 5888) which stated that > "The Red Ensign with the Shield of the Coat of arms in the fly (to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_red_ensign > That sounds to me as though the red ensign was official from 1945. It sounds to me as though we can't tell *what* it says, because some words are missing from the last sentence. I can't find a copy of this on a Canadian government web site, and Google searches for it on other sides suffer from the usual Wikipedia poisoning. But I did find a few sites that at least give a grammatical, if still abridged, version: | "The Red Ensign with the Shield of the Coat of Arms of Canada in the | Fly (hereinafter referred to as 'The Canadian Red Ensign') may be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | place or occasion may make it desirable to fly a distinctive | Canadian flag." http://www.canadafirst.net/maple_leaf_forever/ So the order applied to all purposes, not just government buildings, after all; but the flag was only deemed "appropriate" and not "official". SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Common sense isn't any more common on Usenet msb@vex.net | than it is anywhere else." --Henry Spencer My text in this article is in the public domain. > No problem. The US can just annex Canada. Except for Quebec, > which would probably go independent. Doesn't this happen in one of Harry Turtledove's novels? (I haven't read them --- how are they?) > I have had a lot of Canadian friends and once lived in Canada, so > I have found many of their buttons to push. At the time of the > flag debate I used to tell them that their flag should have > thirteen red and white strips and a blue canton with sixty stars. > That usually started a row. Interesting: I didn't know until know that Canada hadn't had "its own" flag until 1965. Signature() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments Adam Funk: > Interesting: I didn't know until know that Canada hadn't had "its own" > flag until 1965. Depends on what you mean by "its own". Nobody else was using the Canadian Red Ensign. On the other hand, it wasn't official, and it did incorporate another country's flag. But we're not the only country with a flag that does that. SignatureMark Brader | "People tend to assume that things they don't know Toronto | about are either safe or dangerous or useless, msb@vex.net | depending on their prejudices." -- Tim Freeman > Adam Funk: >> Interesting: I didn't know until know that Canada hadn't had "its own" >> flag until 1965. > > Depends on what you mean by "its own". Well, I meant its own *official* flag, but I wasn't clear. > Nobody else was using the > Canadian Red Ensign. On the other hand, it wasn't official, and it > did incorporate another country's flag. But we're not the only > country with a flag that does that. True. SignatureLeila: "I don't think he knows." Agent Rogersz: "Increase the voltage." Leila: "What if he's innocent?" Agent Rogersz: "No one is innocent. Proceed" (Cox 1984) >> Adam Funk: >>> Interesting: I didn't know until know that Canada hadn't had "its [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Well, I meant its own *official* flag, but I wasn't clear. 1945, then: Under pressure from pro-imperial public opinion, Sir Wilfrid Laurier raised the Union Flag over Parliament, where it remained until the re-emergence of the Red Ensign in the 1920s. In 1945, Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King, having flown the Union Jack over Parliament throughout the war, made the Canadian Red Ensign the official Canadian flag by Order-in-Council. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flag_Debate SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If you think health care is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |expensive now, wait until you see Palo Alto, CA 94304 |what it costs when it's free. | P.J. O'Rourke kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> Adam Funk: >>>> Interesting: I didn't know until know that Canada hadn't had "its [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flag_Debate Back in the 19C, official circles in New South Wales and the rest felt hurt that the vexillogical rules didn't allow the plain union flag to be used. Does this mean the Australians were more law-abiding than Canadians, or that Canadians benefited from favouritism? SignatureMike. >>> Adam Funk: >>>> Interesting: I didn't know until know that Canada hadn't had "its [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > 1945, then: OK! I hadn't realized that either! SignatureBob just used 'canonical' in the canonical way. [Guy Steele] [...] >> Why is Detroit in the fix it is today? The answer is obviously simple: >> it's management. I don't think there is any easy answer to fix what's >> happening, but one thing is certain; the first thing that needs fixing >> is management. > >If you say so, okay. I don't like that reply. There is no need to equivocate. The people in charge are the ones responsible. I hate this constant finger pointing. Management f.cked up. The workers who, at any time, thought that someone besides themselves was going to look after them were fools. Long ago I realized that I was solely responsible for my welfare. When my employers' interests and mine were convergent then everyone benefited. I accepted the fact that when our interests diverged then my employer would act in his own interest and I in my own. The auto workers got entangled in some stupid economics. Much of their earnings did not go to controlling the money they earned. This was only part of the crazy obligations that management and labor found themselves with. >> I'm very unhappy that Detroit's auto workers are getting it in the >> neck. I don't see how we can fix their problems soon. I know they are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >But how many thousands of you did the same thing at approximately the >same time? The scale of my circumstances was smaller, but no less critical. I saw the problem starting about 30 years ago. I tried to speak out in my professional community, but no one was interested. That's when I decided I was the only one I could rely on and adapted my goals appropriately. It took time to figure out what to do (some of my changes were reluctant and not immediate), but fortunately what I did left me less vulnerable to what has happened. >> Maria, maybe you think I should be a Republican. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >instead of shift-workers. It's that last part that some have trouble >accepting. I don't understand this. >We're all in this together. Differing views can mean forcing us to >settle differences so that everyone is fairly treated. > >Waxing philosophical, Of course we're in this together (no man's an island--waning philosophical). We'll never see a universally fair solution. I don't want to get too deeply into my views of the problems causes or solutions here. I don't have the _kayches_. I'll discuss it off-line if you like. >[...] >>> Why is Detroit in the fix it is today? The answer is obviously simple: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Management f.cked up. The workers who, at any time, thought that someone >besides themselves was going to look after them were fools. At the Big Three auto companies there are two de facto managements: the corporate managers and the unions. After the labor wars of the 1930s the companies and the unions managed to come to a sort of peaceful co-existence. From WW2 on the unions demanded higher wages and benefits and the companies acquiesced because after the war they were cranking out cars like crazy. The companies wanted to keep sales going and the unions wanted more work and or money, a good combination. As long as Detroit had the American auto market pretty much to itself everything was fine. The OPEC oil crisis and the imprtation of foreign cars, especially japanese cars, eroded that and the handwriting was on the wall. But the unions and the companies had had it so good they didn't read the handwriting. I'll mention it again: A Big Three auto worker costs the company about $73/hour in wages and benefits, a worker at a non-Big Three auto plant costs about $43/hour. A lot of Detroit's problems are bound up in that $30 difference. Somehow, the Big Three has to reduce that disparity. But they are locked into union contracts that make the cost that high. How are they going to reduce that disparity and become competitive again? IIt's a real philosophical hornets nest. How much is a guy who puts a wheel on new cars over and over again actually worth? >Long ago I realized that I was solely responsible for my welfare. When >my employers' interests and mine were convergent then everyone [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >solutions here. I don't have the _kayches_. I'll discuss it off-line if >you like. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * On 09 Dec 2008, Hatunen wrote > I'll mention it again: A Big Three auto worker costs the company > about $73/hour in wages and benefits, a worker at a non-Big [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It's a real philosophical hornets nest. How much is a guy who > puts a wheel on new cars over and over again actually worth? Is this also bound up in featherbedding/Spanish practices (in addition to the actual wages-and-benefits)? AFAIK, modern auto-building sees few guys physically putting wheels on cars, any more than they handle spray-guns in the manufacturing paint line: isn't "hands on" work limited to the final finishing? Presumably -- if they've run true to form -- the unions at the older plants will have blocked the introduction of new working methods to the assembly line; that makes reform a lot harder than just streamlining wages and benefits. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >>[...] >>>> Why is Detroit in the fix it is today? The answer is obviously simple: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >work and or money, a good combination. As long as Detroit had the >American auto market pretty much to itself everything was fine. >The OPEC oil crisis and the imprtation of foreign cars, >especially japanese cars, eroded that and the handwriting was on [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >IIt's a real philosophical hornets nest. How much is a guy who >puts a wheel on new cars over and over again actually worth? You are omitting one of the major problems of the automotive industry: management's decisions on what models and brands to offer. GM could be doing all right if they just paid assembly line people to put wheels on one brand of automobile with a limited number of models of that brand. Instead, there's an extensive range of models for each of a number of brand names. Each cuts into the market of another brand and range. With some minor differences, a Pontiac and a Chevrolet are the same thing, but every Pontiac sold costs Chevrolet a potential sale. The associated costs of having two brands isn't being made up for. In the days that GM was making money, if you wanted special trim features you ordered a car with those features. Now GM makes that car in advance and incurs the cost up-front. The problem isn't just what the workers are making per hour, but also what management has decided that they need workers to make in the way of product. If GM would cut back to one brand, with a reasonable range of models in that brand, they could be profitable at the current wage rates. That would put a lot of people out of work, though. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>[...] >>>>> Why is Detroit in the fix it is today? The answer is obviously simple: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >You are omitting one of the major problems of the automotive industry: >management's decisions on what models and brands to offer. I'm not omitting it; I'm addressing a specific point. >GM could >be doing all right if they just paid assembly line people to put [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the same thing, but every Pontiac sold costs Chevrolet a potential >sale. Of course, this is being done in some ways. When was the last time you saw a Mercury or DeSoto or Plymouth for sale? Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> GM could >> be doing all right if they just paid assembly line people to put [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Of course, this is being done in some ways. When was the last > time you saw a Mercury or DeSoto or Plymouth for sale? Mercurys are still around. Oldsmobiles are not. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> GM could >>> be doing all right if they just paid assembly line people to put [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Mercurys are still around. I knew that. >Oldsmobiles are not. I knew that, too. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>> GM could >>>> be doing all right if they just paid assembly line people to put [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >I knew that, too. Many of the parts from one model fit another one. That has generally been Big Three's practice for years and it is a plenty smart one from a cost standpoint. Cutting back on the model choice their customers have, as proposed above, is a dumb idea since it would save the companies virtually nothing and cost them dearly in sales. Customers like a wide choice or, and this is critical, at least the appearance of choice. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland [car parts, brands, models] > Many of the parts from one model fit another one. That has generally > been Big Three's practice for years and it is a plenty smart one from [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > like a wide choice or, and this is critical, at least the appearance > of choice. I think Johnny Cash covered this topic. SignatureTake it? I can't even parse it! [Kibo] >>You are omitting one of the major problems of the automotive industry: >>management's decisions on what models and brands to offer. > >I'm not omitting it; I'm addressing a specific point. Is it there? If not, you are omitting it. You may not think it's important enough to address, but I do when the subject is the automaker's problems and the discussion goes no further than the cost of an assembly line employee. >>GM could >>be doing all right if they just paid assembly line people to put [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Of course, this is being done in some ways. When was the last >time you saw a Mercury or DeSoto or Plymouth for sale? A Mercury, the last time I drove by a Mercury dealer. Down the street from the Hummer dealer. Now the Hummer; that was a great management decision. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida [snip, much] >I'll mention it again: A Big Three auto worker costs the company >about $73/hour in wages and benefits, a worker at a non-Big Three [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >that make the cost that high. How are they going to reduce that >disparity and become competitive again? [snip, much more] I'd like some clarification here, because I've seen conflicting information. What I saw presented on TV was flawed, but some of the numbers are similar and at least seemed believable. The "$73/hour in wages and benefits" was explained, by them, as including $27/hour in wages, as compared to $25/hour in wages for the non-union plants, and the rest of the $73 included, they said, *all* the costs for now- retired workers; whereas, Honda, etc., in the U.S., presently had $0/hour for retired workers. Flaw 1: All the companies have extra costs for retirement and benefits (including medical), I presume, or that should be explicitly described. Your number of $43/hour for non-Big Three seems believable. The $73, as it stands, is not believable. Flaw 2: "Legacy" costs should be separated out as a separate line. Now, I remember that the U.S. automakers (among others) had been guilty of underfunding their retirement costs. But those costs are *all* supposed to be essentially paid for in advance. Companies were supposed to catch up with those, but I have no idea of how completely that has been done. Are the union automakers still paying back for the earlier shortfalls? The total amount of $73/hour does seem too large, if it doesn't include some of that. And why it is that large deserves comment, if it is not "legacy" costs. SignatureRich Ulrich >[snip, much] >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >described. Your number of $43/hour for non-Big Three seems >believable. The $73, as it stands, is not believable. I found a comment from the Detroit Free press that the auto industry denies vehemently that the number is over $70. They insist is is $69. I say, "piffle". >Flaw 2: "Legacy" costs should be separated out as a separate line. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >include some of that. And why it is that large deserves comment, >if it is not "legacy" costs. Whatever the number is and what the reasons are the automakers brought it on themselves. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > Whatever the number is and what the reasons are the automakers > brought it on themselves. And the unions? Was there ever really a chance to say No to them? SignatureMaria C. >> Whatever the number is and what the reasons are the automakers >> brought it on themselves. > >And the unions? Was there ever really a chance to say No to them? In wages, working conditions, and benefits...no. The automakers had stockholders to contend with, and stockholders don't think kindly of work stoppages. But, as I keep saying, the mistakes of the automakers were not solely in the area of labor costs. The production lines manufactured the brands and models that management decided they would make. Too many bad decisions were made in that area, and that can't be laid at the union's door. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> Whatever the number is and what the reasons are the automakers >>> brought it on themselves. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > bad decisions were made in that area, and that can't be laid at the > union's door. Could be. I just think the UAW has a lot to answer for when it comes to the plight of the auto companies and their workers. SignatureMaria C. >> Whatever the number is and what the reasons are the automakers >> brought it on themselves. > >And the unions? Was there ever really a chance to say No to them? Was there? A prolonged strike would have been rough, admittedly. That was, I guess, a really good reason to lose control of the company. I actually favor unions, but the UAW really went too far, and the auto companies let them. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> Whatever the number is and what the reasons are the automakers >>> brought it on themselves. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I actually favor unions, but the UAW really went too far, and the > auto companies let them. I'm not so sure about that last sentence of yours. But I'm not going to argue any more. We'll just have to recognize that we have differences and let it go at that. SignatureMaria C. >> Whatever the number is and what the reasons are the automakers >> brought it on themselves. > >And the unions? Was there ever really a chance to say No to them? Just Say No! SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland [snip] >>Flaw 1: All the companies have extra costs for retirement and >>benefits (including medical), I presume, or that should be explicitly >>described. Your number of $43/hour for non-Big Three seems >>believable. The $73, as it stands, is not believable. H > >I found a comment from the Detroit Free press that the auto >industry denies vehemently that the number is over $70. They [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >>include some of that. And why it is that large deserves comment, >>if it is not "legacy" costs. H > >Whatever the number is and what the reasons are the automakers >brought it on themselves. Just a little followup. The New York Times of today, Dec 10, has an article starting on the front page, "$73 an Hour: Adding it Up." It supports what I said about the problem, but it does not explain everything about "Legacy costs", such as, their prior funding and fuller legal status. Oh, the companies *did* bring the confusion into the issue by their own crappy power-point presentations. A chart on page A23 has much of their summary. Its caption includes the extra information, "A 2007 deal with the United Automobile Workers cut wages for new hires and created a retiree health care fund that would transfer that responsibility to the U.A.W. in 2010." There are two segmented bars, one labeled FORD with a total hourly labor cost of $71, the other labeled JAPANESE (in the US) with a total of $49. Ford has a slightly higher number in each of the subcategories. Footnoted: "Includes assembly and more highy paid skilled jobs." Subcategories Wages, $29 to $26 (Basic wage plus cost-of-living adjustments). Wage related, $14 to $9 (Paid vacation and holidays, overtime, night and weekend pay). Benefits, $12 to $11 (Health care, training, payroll taxes for current employees). Legacy Costs $16 to $3 (Health care and pension payments to retirees). There is a third total-bar shown in ghost form (no subdivisions or shading, just a dashed outline of it). To contrast with the "Japanese $49", it shows a total of $53, labeled "Ford with the health care fund in place and 20% new hires." SignatureRich Ulrich > [...] >>> Why is Detroit in the fix it is today? The answer is obviously [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I don't like that reply. There is no need to equivocate. My thinking: I'm not so sure it's management's fault. I'm also not sure it isn't. And I don't want to argue whose fault it is, because I'm so pro-American Auto Companies that the "guilty parties" aren't as important to me as a solution is. It may not make sense, Murray, but there it is: I am very likely to "equivocate" (or simply be ambivalent) about some of the issues. Either way, my "If you say so, okay" was not meant to be rude or dismissive, and I apologize if that's the way you took it. Email might be a good idea. Maria conlonmaria@sbcglobal.net >> [...] >>>> Why is Detroit in the fix it is today? The answer is obviously [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >way, my "If you say so, okay" was not meant to be rude or dismissive, >and I apologize if that's the way you took it. Management is in charge of all decisions. If they allow worker input, it is their decision to do so. The decisions are judged good or bad by the bottom line. The bottom line in Detroit is a joke. Decisions by management to give preferential treatment to paying themselves and the stockholders with lack of regard to investment in the future of the company and ineptitude in choosing the direction of the company is at the very least negligence (bad union contracts is another indication how neglectful the management was regarding where they would be in the future). BTW, Detroit isn't the only management guilty of acquiescing to greed; this has been going on for years and is primarily responsible why many American companies lost their competitive edge. >Email might be a good idea. If you can stand it, I'm willing. >>> [...] >>>>> Why is Detroit in the fix it is today? The answer is obviously [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Management is in charge of all decisions. Subject to a form of veto by the union. >If they allow worker input, it is their decision to do so. I reckon they all have suggestion boxes. And rewards for accepted suggesions. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Check out http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/6012/bailoutyk2.jpg. You'll love it. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > Check out http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/6012/bailoutyk2.jpg. > > You'll love it. Not. I think it's load of crap, so to speak. Btw, here's something from today's December 9, 2008, New York Times. Note the 4th paragraph. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/09/business/09auto.html?_r=1&hp or http://tinyurl.com/5mkk4g WASHINGTON - The White House and Democratic Congressional leaders said Monday that they were close to agreeing on the terms of a $15 billion government rescue of the American automobile industry that would be directed by one or more appointees of President Bush and would impose expansive federal oversight of the auto companies. The House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, said she hoped that Mr. Bush's appointee - or car czar, as the position has come to be known - would not need to be replaced by President-elect Barack Obama, raising the prospect that the outgoing and incoming administrations would cooperate in selecting someone. The president's designee would disburse the short-term emergency loans to General Motors and Chrysler, which are at risk of financial collapse, and would directly supervise the reorganization plans that the auto manufacturers have agreed to carry out in exchange for government aid. The government also could receive warrants that would give it equity stakes in the companies. The Ford Motor Company announced Monday evening that it would not seek short-term federal aid, denying that it faced the same "near-term liquidity issue" as G.M. and Chrysler. See the full article for more [...] SignatureMaria C. <snip> >See the full article for more [...] So now we have Nancy P. and gang in the automobile business. That's Just F'ing Wonderful. I'll continue reading Karl Marx's "Capital" to see how it all turns out. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> [...] >>>>> Why is Detroit in the fix it is today? The answer is obviously [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > If you can stand it, I'm willing. Sure, I can stand it. But I'm not as good at making a case as you appear to be. (Maybe I should have my husband get in on this.) conlonmaria@sbcglobal.net > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > The implication was there. I read it exactly opposite: ] In fact, Detroit's figurative arm had to be twisted to bring most of ] that about. Even now Detroit has been trying to get a federal law ] passed making the federal emissions standards pre-emptive. This ] would eliminate even stricter standards established by states. It is ] aimed particularly at California's stringent emissions laws. Many ] cars sold anywhere in the USA bear a "Meets California standards" ] sticker in them because California is such a huge market it was ] simpler to make all cars to California standards than to make them ] different for other parts of the country. Making federal emissions standards pre-emptive would mean that California's emissions laws couldn't be applied in California. The only ones applying them nationally are the auto companies, and they're doing so voluntarily, presumably to save money. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There's been so much ado already 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that any further ado would be Palo Alto, CA 94304 |excessive. | Lori Karkosky kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Maria C. > >> [...] [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > only ones applying them nationally are the auto companies, and they're > doing so voluntarily, presumably to save money. Thanks, Evan. I misread or misunderstood or missed the bus or something. And apologies to Dave for my "implication" statement. SignatureMaria C. >> Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the big >> three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, reliable cars, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >thing, foreign ownership of US businesses means money leaving the >country. Not only do American assembly workers get paid, but American repairmen and parts clerks do, too. In addition, what is good for Japanese and German economies is often good the American one in ways more complicated that I can explain. Think global. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> Here's an idea for Uncle Sam and taxpayers like myself. Since the big >> three have demonstrated they can't make fuel efficient, reliable cars, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >thing, foreign ownership of US businesses means money leaving the >country. If you build a better mousetrap the world will beat a path to your door. If Detroit's engineers can't hack it, the Big Three will need to give them the training they need or, if that doesn't work, hire new engineers who can make cars that can compete in quality, price and reliability with the German and Japanese models. Powerful unions get in the way, no doubt, so ways may have to be found to deal with them. We'll may see how tough Mr Obama can get with the unions, perhaps the biggest roadblock to improvement. In the meantime, Americans know they can trust foreign companies to provide them quality cars, as they have for many years. This problem the Big Three is seeing has been a long time in the making, so it is hard to feel much sympathy for Detroit, Maria, much as I'd like to since you live in the area. "If wishes were fishes...", however that goes and whatever it means. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > In the meantime, Americans know they can trust foreign companies to > provide them quality cars, as they have for many years. > This problem the Big Three is seeing has been a long time in the > making, so it is hard to feel much sympathy for Detroit, Maria, much > as I'd like to since you live in the area. "If wishes were fishes...", > however that goes and whatever it means. There are two problems: the long-term one of developing new vehicles for changing circumstances, and the short-term problem of liquidity when no-one is buying cars. The current government answer seems to make the worst of both worlds: take the money earmarked to help the car companies to develop new cars, and give too little of it to the companies for the short-term problem. It doesn't matter what cars they are making at the moment: no-one is buying. That includes the foreign-owned as well as the domestic-owned. The vehicle which showed the biggest decline in sales according to the WSJ article I posted was the Toyota Prius, the car available as a hybrid. Scariest number I've heard lately: Volvo's truck division saw sales fall by 95% in October. Fran >> In the meantime, Americans know they can trust foreign companies to >> provide them quality cars, as they have for many years. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Scariest number I've heard lately: Volvo's truck division saw sales fall >by 95% in October. The number of people and businesses for a whom a new vehicle is a necessity must be a small proportion of potential purchasers. I suspect that most potential purchasers can easily decide to defer purchase for a year (or more). SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> In the meantime, Americans know they can trust foreign companies to >>> provide them quality cars, as they have for many years. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >must be a small proportion of potential purchasers. I suspect that most >potential purchasers can easily decide to defer purchase for a year (or more). How are used car sales figures doing? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> In the meantime, Americans know they can trust foreign companies to >>>> provide them quality cars, as they have for many years. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >How are used car sales figures doing? I can't find recent UK figures for cars, but for trucks and vans (in the BrE sense of freight vehicles rather than personal transport): http://www.smmt.co.uk/articles/article.cfm?articleid=18618 Truck registrations drop and vans drop further * Registrations: down 42.3% in November and 8.9% to 352,597 for the rolling year. * Trucks: down 19.1% in November, up 14.6% to 57,195 for the rolling year. * Vans: down 46.9% for the month and down 12.3% to 295,402 for the rolling year. "November saw another big dent in van and truck registrations," said Paul Everitt, SMMT chief executive. "Vans are down nearly 50% for the month and some 12% for the rolling year. Truck registrations are down nearly 20% for November but look superficially good for the rolling year, with a near 15% rise on the back of orders won over the last year. Lead times are now back to normal but order intake is down over 50%. With much of industry shutting down over Christmas and into the New Year, we're in for a bleak winter." SMMT: (British) Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > How are used car sales figures doing? A recent article in The Washington Post described hard times at the used car lots in DC. People are postponing purchases. Eventually business will have to pick up or else people will be doing without wheels, but right now times are tough. You'd think that would make for good times in the auto repair business. One of my sons manages an auto repair shop in a ski resort town in Utah. Business is bad there, too. People are postponing repairs. Repair activity will have to pick up eventually, but the business has to survive until that comes to pass. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> How are used car sales figures doing? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >You'd think that would make for good times in the auto repair business. I would, indeed. > One of my sons manages an auto repair shop in a ski resort town in >Utah. Business is bad there, too. People are postponing repairs. >Repair activity will have to pick up eventually, but the business has >to survive until that comes to pass. True. When people are even postponing repairs, you know times are bad. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> How are used car sales figures doing? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > True. When people are even postponing repairs, you know times are bad. The automakers will probably start issuing free recalls for imaginary defects then inject a few defaults that must be repaired. > The automakers will probably start issuing free recalls for imaginary > defects then inject a few defaults that must be repaired. For a price? Is that what you're saying? Just wondering, SignatureMaria C. >> The automakers will probably start issuing free recalls for imaginary >> defects then inject a few defaults that must be repaired. > > For a price? Is that what you're saying? > > Just wondering, Well, yeah. In March of 2005, when I went in for regular service of my BMW, the BMW people said that I should replace a cracked control arm bushing at a price or $701. I'm still thinking about that one. Everything is working just fine, and there is no unusual tire wear. Funny, though -- when I still had the Mercedes, the same problem was found by their people. I had that one done. Germans don't know how to make control arm bushings? SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> The automakers will probably start issuing free recalls for >>> imaginary defects then inject a few defaults that must be repaired. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > found by their people. I had that one done. Germans don't know how > to make control arm bushings? Was Irwell talking about German cars? All cars? I'm not sure, but I thought he was referring to GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Any case, I've found that recalls are usually for defects that the auto company will fix at their expense. By the way, I've been leasing cars for years. I always have a car payment,* but I can't think of any repairs I've had to have made (while leasing) except for the couple of times when I had damages that the insurance company covered. *A friend (from the past) always liked to say "If you haven't got a car payment, you haven't got a car." It sounded sort of sensible, but I never quite figured out why. Oh, well, no matter. It was something to contemplate from time to time. SignatureMaria C. > *A friend (from the past) always liked to say "If you haven't got a car > payment, you haven't got a car." It sounded sort of sensible, but I > never quite figured out why. Oh, well, no matter. It was something to > contemplate from time to time. If you've got a car payment, the finance company has got a car. We've got a car, though, having recently paid cash to replace our dying 1993 Saturn with a shiny new Honda Fit (called Jazz in Greater Rightpondia), which we love. (Sorry, GM. Saturn ain't what it used to be, if it ever was, and none of its current models suited us, not even the one made in Belgium.) SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>> The automakers will probably start issuing free recalls for >>>> imaginary defects then inject a few defaults that must be repaired. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Any case, I've found that recalls are usually for defects that the auto >company will fix at their expense. The dealerships love recalls. They bill the parts and labor to the automaker, keep their mechanics busy, and have the opportunity to sell the car's owner additional services like oil changes, tune-ups, wiper blades, etc. All at prices higher than non-dealership shops charge. And, as a bonus, they have a live prospect for a new car on the lot. There's no benefit to the automaker except that last point. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > The dealerships love recalls. They bill the parts and labor to the > automaker, keep their mechanics busy, and have the opportunity to sell [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > There's no benefit to the automaker except that last point. The recalls I remember all occurred during the warranty period, and all additional problems found would have had to be fixed without charge. Not surprisingly, none were found before the warranty expired. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>> The automakers will probably start issuing free recalls for >>>> imaginary defects then inject a few defaults that must be repaired. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >never quite figured out why. Oh, well, no matter. It was something to >contemplate from time to time. We pay cash for our cars and they're ours, ours, ours. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > We pay cash for our cars and they're ours, ours, ours. Nothing wrong with that. It's your option, your choice. Maria C., who will probably keep leasing. We'll see. >> By the way, I've been leasing cars for years. I always have a car >> payment,* but I can't think of any repairs I've had to have made [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > We pay cash for our cars and they're ours, ours, ours. Same here. Well, we write checks, actually, and there was that Visa purchase ... SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>> The automakers will probably start issuing free recalls for >>>> imaginary defects then inject a few defaults that must be repaired. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Was Irwell talking about German cars? All cars? I'm not sure, but I > thought he was referring to GM, Ford, and Chrysler. I don't know, but I was talking about my cars and experiences. > Any case, I've found that recalls are usually for defects that the > auto company will fix at their expense. I was not even talking about recalls, just the additional problems that are found during routine maintenance visits. Just information -- maybe too much information ... SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>> In the meantime, Americans know they can trust foreign companies to >>>> provide them quality cars, as they have for many years. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >How are used car sales figures doing? I can only give you the experience of one man. My mechanic friend makes most of his income buying and selling used vehicles mainly at the low end of the market; vehicles that sell for 4000 UKP or less. He tells me that for the past few months little of his stock has moved. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>> In the meantime, Americans know they can trust foreign companies to >>>>> provide them quality cars, as they have for many years. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >the low end of the market; vehicles that sell for 4000 UKP or less. He >tells me that for the past few months little of his stock has moved. America and Britain are having much the same problem, it appears. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> In the meantime, Americans know they can trust foreign companies to >> provide them quality cars, as they have for many years. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Scariest number I've heard lately: Volvo's truck division saw sales fall >by 95% in October. Good grief, I wish I hadn't read that. Still, trucks are out and compacts are in. Out of patriotism, plus a sense they want to do something for the environment, do you think Americans would buy an electric car if it was affordable and there was a network of charge points? I do. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> In the meantime, Americans know they can trust foreign companies to >>> provide them quality cars, as they have for many years. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Good grief, I wish I hadn't read that. Still, trucks are out and >compacts are in. Volvo's truck division makes heavy freight vehicle, not pickup trucks. >Out of patriotism, plus a sense they want to do something for the >environment, do you think Americans would buy an electric car if it >was affordable and there was a network of charge points? I do. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >Scariest number I've heard lately: Volvo's truck division saw sales fall > >by 95% in October. > > Good grief, I wish I hadn't read that. Still, trucks are out and > compacts are in. Indeed. My sister wants to get a Smart car, and the waiting list for one is over a year long. SignatureSML >> >Scariest number I've heard lately: Volvo's truck division saw sales fall >> >by 95% in October. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Indeed. My sister wants to get a Smart car, and the waiting list for one >is over a year long. Please tell me that by Smart car, you're not referring to this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4104261162559881379 SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >>Indeed. My sister wants to get a Smart car, and the waiting list for one >>is over a year long. > >Please tell me that by Smart car, you're not referring to this: > >http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4104261162559881379 One of those passed through my parking lot last month while I was waiting for the plumbers...the neighborhood feral cats all stared as it went by....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>> >Scariest number I've heard lately: Volvo's truck division saw sales fall >>> >by 95% in October. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4104261162559881379 I don't think I'd even try to drive one on a freeway/motorway. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>> Scariest number I've heard lately: Volvo's truck division saw sales fall >>>>> by 95% in October. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I don't think I'd even try to drive one on a freeway/motorway. I have seen several on I-95 but I don't think I would want to chance it. They look pretty good for city driving. Fran On 09 Dec 2008, Fran Kemmish wrote >>>>>> Scariest number I've heard lately: Volvo's truck division >>>>>> saw sales fall by 95% in October. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I have seen several on I-95 but I don't think I would want to > chance it. They look pretty good for city driving. I've seen them on the motorways here; they look as safe to me in that environment as any other small car (you get blown about or hit by a truck in a Corsa or a Smart car; not a lot of difference). What I think of when I see them there is that most motorway trips take longer than in-town trips, and that the short wheelbase must make for a tiresome ride after the first 10 or 20 minutes. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 09 Dec 2008, Fran Kemmish wrote >> I have seen several on I-95 but I don't think I would want to >> chance it. They look pretty good for city driving. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >take longer than in-town trips, and that the short wheelbase must >make for a tiresome ride after the first 10 or 20 minutes. I've been overtaken on motorways by Smart cars being driven at 80 or 85 mph. Perhaps they want to get a tiresome ride over as quickly as possible. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > Please tell me that by Smart car, you're not referring to this: > > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4104261162559881379 I am. Although this is the clip I think of when I think of Smart cars: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0GZscZoZOo> (I tried to find a clip starting a few seconds earlier in the sketch, but failed.) SignatureSML >> Please tell me that by Smart car, you're not referring to this: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >(I tried to find a clip starting a few seconds earlier in the sketch, >but failed.) Putting Dawn French in a Smart Car is as impractical as selling me a Honda 305, a motorcycle suitable for either a teenager or an adult rider of slight proportions. What a P.O.S., I will add, not that my college roommate, a Triumph man, didn't warn me. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >If you build a better mousetrap the world will beat a path to your >door. If Detroit's engineers can't hack it, the Big Three will need to >give them the training they need or, if that doesn't work, hire new >engineers who can make cars that can compete in quality, price and >reliability with the German and Japanese models. Powerful unions get >in the way, no doubt, so ways may have to be found to deal with them. Chapter 11 is a way to deal with them. >We'll may see how tough Mr Obama can get with the unions, perhaps the >biggest roadblock to improvement. There's not really much a president can do with unions, unless, like Reagan's air traffic controllers, they are employed by the federal government. >In the meantime, Americans know they can trust foreign companies to >provide them quality cars, as they have for many years. >This problem the Big Three is seeing has been a long time in the >making, so it is hard to feel much sympathy for Detroit, Maria, much >as I'd like to since you live in the area. "If wishes were fishes...", >however that goes and whatever it means. I grew up in the Warren-Youngtown, Ohio, area, an area Forbes Magazine included in its ten fastest dying cities list, right up there with Detroit-Flint, Michigan. http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/04/economy-ohio-michigan-biz_cx_jz_0805dying.html It was steel that made that area. Big booming fiery, smokey steel mills. And General Motors, which had its infamous Lordstown Assembly Plant there and Packard Electric Division, which made wiring harnesses and lamp sockets, among other things, for GM cars. Packard was spun off into supposedly independent Delphi, which has been having its own financial problems. I worked for Packard many years ago as a young engineer. I went back to Warren last summer to bury my mohter, my first real trip back in several decades. Driving around I found the huge Packard parking lot empty. On a Thursday afternoon. And teh steel mills were not only shut down, they were gone, apparently salvaged for their steel frames. Decaying houses were everywhere. houses I lived in or my friends lived in were there, but some were derelicts. I had run into my first wife here in Tucson a few years ago and when I mentioned I thought about going back there she said, don't, there' nothing there anymore. She was right. There is an up side, though. The air is a hell of a lot clearer than when there wer steel mills, and the mahoning River is also a lot cleaner. The world changes. And just as the textile towns of New England became semi-ghost towns when the mills moved to the American South, change has come to the once-booming Great Lakes area. Here in the West we have evidence of such changes all over in the form of boom-and-bust ghost towns. I have to admit, though, none of them are as big as the ghost town Youngstown seems to be becoming, the likes of which may only be seen in the jungles of the Yucatan or the deserts of the Middle East. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>4. Opinion: Those who want the American car companies to go belly-up are >>being very foolish. The domino effect comes to mind -- suppliers and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >have suppliers that are not local, and pay bills to firms that are all >across the country. I'm all for Mom and Apple Pie, too, but getting down to brass tacks, what should the new administration do, if anything, to solve this problem? >The only thing that I ask is an end to upper management bonuses and >incentives beyond a reasonable salary. Let the people who set the >strategies that are failing feel the pain. It is going to take some basic engineering work on the part of the Big Three to solve this problem, IMO, not just some diddling with details of what is paid to management. The problems go way beyond that, which is obvious if you compare the solid engineering that goes into a Toyota or a Mercedes, both of which run and never stop, with what goes into anything Detroit has been making of late. You can't fool the American car buyer with smoke and mirrors, Coop. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>4. Opinion: Those who want the American car companies to go belly-up are >>>being very foolish. The domino effect comes to mind -- suppliers and [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >into anything Detroit has been making of late. You can't fool the >American car buyer with smoke and mirrors, Coop. Don't be too sure about Mercedes and Toyota. My Mercedes has cost me at least twice as much in maintenance as it cost to buy, and my Lexus (Toyota, 18 months old and under warranty) wouldn't start tonight because the battery is already conked out. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>It is going to take some basic engineering work on the part of the Big >>Three to solve this problem, IMO, not just some diddling with details [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >(Toyota, 18 months old and under warranty) wouldn't start tonight >because the battery is already conked out. I gotta ask: where was the battery made? Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>It is going to take some basic engineering work on the part of the Big >>>Three to solve this problem, IMO, not just some diddling with details [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >I gotta ask: where was the battery made? That's really not to the point. A battery can fail because of the failure of components and cables that connect the battery. Bad cables and connections cause more battery problems than batteries do. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>It is going to take some basic engineering work on the part of the Big >>>>Three to solve this problem, IMO, not just some diddling with details [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >failure of components and cables that connect the battery. Bad cables >and connections cause more battery problems than batteries do. Only if they make for a short circuit. I've replaced a couple of dozen batteries in my time, but only one failed because of wiring problems. Several failed because I left the lights on too many times. A few more failed because Arizona heat is very bad on batteries and shortens their lives considerably. Failure after 18 months wouldn't really be all that odd here. Adn I've had some fail in severe winter weather. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>>It is going to take some basic engineering work on the part of the Big >>>>>Three to solve this problem, IMO, not just some diddling with details [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > considerably. Failure after 18 months wouldn't really be all that > odd here. Adn I've had some fail in severe winter weather. Extreme temperature changes will shorten battery life considerably. The OEM battery on my 2001 Elantra was still working great seven years later, sealed battery too. >>>>>> It is going to take some basic engineering work on the part of the Big >>>>>> Three to solve this problem, IMO, not just some diddling with details [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > considerably. The OEM battery on my 2001 Elantra was still > working great seven years later, sealed battery too. Only this spring did I finally replace the original equipment battery in my wife's Subaru, which was purchased in the fall of 1998. I was really hoping to get 10 full years out of it, but I left a dome light on one too many times. That car had always been garaged, and since she's retired it didn't have to spend a lot of time in the heat or cold of an employer's parking lot. The previous record was the battery of my 1973 Datsun 240Z, which lasted seven years. That car was garaged, but it did spend time in parking lots. (The brand name on the battery was Yuasa. Every time I saw that logo I couldn't help thinking, "Yuasa sirry question, you get a sirry answer.") The battery on my 1995 Volvo died a couple of days after I bought the car. My new car had to be towed back to the dealer. I was not happy. In that instance, the car had sat on the dealer's lot for several months before I bought it, which was probably why the battery and a couple of shock absorbers went bad early. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > Only this spring did I finally replace the original equipment battery in > my wife's Subaru, which was purchased in the fall of 1998. I was really [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > before I bought it, which was probably why the battery and a couple of > shock absorbers went bad early. I've just (within the last couple of months) replaced the original battery in my (W reg, so March->July 2000) Renault. I was quite impressed by that. Particularly given it's French. Not garaged in the last few years at least. I've got a Yuasa battery on the boat for domestic power, and it's done better than its last two predecessors. SignatureWaterways route planning website: http://canalplan.org.uk >>>>> It is going to take some basic engineering work on the part of >>>>> the Big Three to solve this problem, IMO, not just some diddling [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > considerably. Failure after 18 months wouldn't really be all that > odd here. Adn I've had some fail in severe winter weather. Lights have been left on a couple of times on our Honda (no automatic shutoff). Yes, that ran down the battery, but a quick charge got things back to normal again. The guilty party is learning but has also insisted that a pair of jumper cables be stored in the trunk. The battery on the Mercedes we used to own caused some very strange things to happen before it actually gave out. It had served about six years, though. The original battery of our BMW lasted six and a half years. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >Lights have been left on a couple of times on our Honda (no automatic >shutoff). Yes, that ran down the battery, but a quick charge got things >back to normal again. The guilty party is learning but has also insisted >that a pair of jumper cables be stored in the trunk. Each quick charge shortens battery life a little. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> Lights have been left on a couple of times on our Honda (no automatic >> shutoff). Yes, that ran down the battery, but a quick charge got >> things back to normal again. The guilty party is learning but has >> also insisted that a pair of jumper cables be stored in the trunk. > > Each quick charge shortens battery life a little. Well, what can I do? I may have misused the term "quick charge". I have a charger that puts out 5 amps max. and reduces the current as things progress. It takes quite a few hours to set things right. SignatureSkitt (AmE) hoping to outlive that battery >>>It is going to take some basic engineering work on the part of the Big >>>Three to solve this problem, IMO, not just some diddling with details [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >I gotta ask: where was the battery made? I have no idea. Anyway, Lexus replaced the battery under the warranty, of course. To refer to Skitt's post, the Mercedes coupe I had before the Lexus was also full of electronics and they went haywire when the battery was still able to start the engine but was delivering something less than 12 volts. On the Lexus, the indicator for miles per gallon has never worked properly; it more or less read the same regardless of length of trip. With the new battery that indicator started working properly and the car, which was not slow before, is much more accelerative. Which leads me to believe that the battery was kaput when I bought the vehicle, at which time it was only nine months old. (The terminals were tight and corrosion-free. Lights have not been left on: the car makes a rude noise if you try. The alternator is charging perfectly well.) The space under the bonnet for the battery is completely filled by the one supplied, and I notice that the Mercedes SL series, which can be considered as a direct competitor to the SC430, has a battery about half as big again located under the boot floor. The service representative told me that more recent Lexus saloons have been redesigned to have a larger battery under the boot, and that the main reason why SC430s need anything more than routine service during their first few years is battery failure because the battery is barely big enough to service all of the electronics. Where should the battery have been made to ensure a longer life? SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> "Infill" as a term is new to me. That may be because there aren't >>> that many houses being built (and sold) in this area these days. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > mileage. In any case, they felt that buying a foreign car was a wise > move (or even a retribution of sorts). I would love to buy an American car, but they don't make a car that I want. The last American car I bought, not counting the clapped-out 1960-something Mercury Grand Marquis I bought for a teenager to drive, was a 1966 Plymouth. Since then it's been 1968 MGB, 1973 Datsun 240Z, 1978 VW Rabbit (wife's), clapped-out Toyota for the kids, 1985 Honda Civic (wife's), 1985 Honda Prelude Si, 1995 Volvo 850 Turbo, 1999 Subaru Forester (wife's, current), and 2003 Infiniti G35 Coupe (current). All except the Toyota and the aforementioned Mercury bought new. (Before anyone remarks on how seldom we buy cars, let it be noted that the wife's ten-year old Subaru --- bought in the fall of 1998 --- has only 45,000 miles on it, and that includes one round trip from Virginia to Utah (6,000 miles right there) and several trips to North Carolina.) Not one of those cars could have been duplicated by an equally desirable and equally reliable American car (except maybe the Volvo). Well, neither the MGB nor the Datsun was a paragon of reliability, but in those days you didn't expect reliability from a sports car. > *However, I believe that it's hardly cost-consciousness when a Lexus > or a Mercedes replaces a American- or Canadian-made auto. (Also, it's > been a while since car prices were a real factor.) They've always been a factor to me. > 3. I can see a cut in wages being reasonable; and changes to > better-mileage cars are already being done. Fifty years after the foreign small-car invasion started. > 4. Opinion: Those who want the American car companies to go belly-up are > being very foolish. The domino effect comes to mind -- suppliers and > dealers will fold. Local businesses currently patronized by workers will > have a big drop in sales. Houses will be repossesed. Taxes paid will be > less. That needn't be the outcome. Lots of companies go into Chapter 11 and come back out again. Look at the airlines. The stockholders would be wiped out, but that's what they get for investing in such poorly managed companies. In any case, that's the way capitalism is supposed to work. If you can't compete, you die. > 5. Instead of punishing the automakers and putting them out of business, We're punishing them by not giving them money? Come on, Maria. > why not give them a chance to continue the changes they've already > begun? Didn't we already go through this once with Chrysler? And here they are back again. > And while we're at it, how about doing what's possible to return > other jobs to this country? Having so much labor done out of the country [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > up on all this later. In the meantime, I fully expect opposing > opinions.] You got 'em. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. <snip> >I would love to buy an American car, but they don't make a car that I >want. <snip> I snipped fore and aft, John, because you put the problem in a nutshell. It is just as true for many Americans, now, as it was thirty years ago. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >nutshell. It is just as true for many Americans, now, as it was thirty >years ago. True for more Americans now than it was thirty yeas ago. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >True for more Americans now than it was thirty yeas ago. God, but you are one disagreeable man. Have you always been that way? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>><snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >God, but you are one disagreeable man. Have you always been that way? Why do you think my comment was "disagreeable"? I've actually agreed with your comment and expanded it. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >4. Opinion: Those who want the American car companies to go belly-up are >being very foolish. The domino effect comes to mind -- suppliers and >dealers will fold. Local businesses currently patronized by workers will >have a big drop in sales. Houses will be repossesed. Taxes paid will be >less. I seriously doubt that anyone *wants* the Big Three to go belly-up, but the fact is that Detroit refuses to learn. As far back as the 1950s and 1960s Detroit auto executives were claiming to make the "best cars in the world", a claim that was considered laughable by those who bought other nations' cars. There is a quite reasonble caution on the part of many that the Detroit attitude will simply continue if you give them money, and their situation will simply grow worse. The simple fact is, which has been publicized lately in news reports, that a Big Three automaker line employee earns about $73/hour in wages and benefits while an American employee of a foreign company makes about $45/hour. There are now *two* American auto industries, the traditional Big Three and the many non-Detroit factories of companies like Toyota and Honda. The latter are NOT asking for handouts and they, too, have a large labor force and a large multiplier effect on their communities' economic lives. As long as they keep making cars Americans want more than Detroit product, Detroit is going to suffer. Chapter 11 bankruptcy is NOT the same as going belly-up, but rather a means of putting off debts while re-organizing. it might do the Big Three some good to go into Chapter 11; it would permit them to lower that $73/hour labor cost a lot. >5. Instead of punishing the automakers and putting them out of business, >why not give them a chance to continue the changes they've already >begun? That's what Chapter 11 is for. >And while we're at it, how about doing what's possible to return >other jobs to this country? Having so much labor done out of the country >causes losses of a lot of jobs. It also seems to have resulted in lower >quality in some cases. And in higher quality in many other cases, including automobiles. >Dollar stores full of inexpensive imports aren't >the key to a thriving economy. Now would they be if they were full of inexpensive domestic products. But TV sets as good as the Japanese and Koreans make would be, not to mention cars like my much-love Subaru Forester would. (My wife buys Dodge Grand Caravans because of certain needs; she'd really prefer a Toyota mini-van and if Toyota made the right verison she'd snap one up.) Of course, most Toyotas and Subarus and Hondas aren't imported. >6. Wal-mart should also do some rethinking. Why would they want to rethink? They're the only large vendor doing well at the moment. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * [...] >> 6. Wal-mart should also do some rethinking. > > Why would they want to rethink? They're the only large vendor > doing well at the moment. Didn't I read that Wal-Mart enjoyed an indirect but substantial taxpayer subsidy by paying its workers so little that they had to receive food stamps? Or was that a myth, or a misunderstanding, or merely temporary? SignatureMike. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > subsidy by paying its workers so little that they had to receive food > stamps? Or was that a myth, or a misunderstanding, or merely temporary? I found this description of a California study, which seems to demonstrate what you say. http://www.dsausa.org/lowwage/walmart/2004/walmart%20study.html Fran >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > http://www.dsausa.org/lowwage/walmart/2004/walmart%20study.html Thanks, Fran. And that's only California: nationwide, it looks as though the bosses of Wal-Mart are among the biggest social security scroungers around. It links in my mind to the thread about tipping practices in US restaurants... SignatureMike. <snip> >Chapter 11 bankruptcy is NOT the same as going belly-up, but >rather a means of putting off debts while re-organizing. it might >do the Big Three some good to go into Chapter 11; it would permit >them to lower that $73/hour labor cost a lot. While I agree that Chapter 11 might give them the time they need, will the unions allow them to lower wages or to fire high paid workers to hire lower paid ones? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the unions allow them to lower wages or to fire high paid workers to > hire lower paid ones? I've read all your "Auto Bailout" posts in this thread, and I simply cannot see your reasoning. For example, the idea of firing highly-paid workers to hire lower-paid ones overlooks the fact that hiring at lower wages means hiring, for the most part, the inexperienced. There are reasons why raises are given over the years, and while the unions are a big factor, they are not the only one. Experience and skills are important, and are worth higher pay. The plight of American auto companies should not be an "us-vs-them" issue. It's a problem to be solved in a way that satisfies needs. There are several people (at least) in this newsgroup who make darn good salaries in their "day jobs." Should they all be fired and replaced by newbies when the economy slips and profit dips? What will that do to a business? Pay cuts -- reasonable ones -- may help, though, especially if there are expectations -- reasonable ones, again -- for future improvement in the entire picture. SignatureMaria C. >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >workers to hire lower-paid ones overlooks the fact that hiring at lower >wages means hiring, for the most part, the inexperienced. Nonsense. Or are you telling us the experienced autoworkers in your area will refuse to take the jobs? >There are >reasons why raises are given over the years, and while the unions are a >big factor, they are not the only one. Experience and skills are >important, and are worth higher pay. Which begs the question of just how much are they worth? And how do you determine it? The simple fact is taht raises came from seniority and not skill; that's the way the unions insisted on and they mightily opposed any sort of merit pay. >The plight of American auto companies should not be an "us-vs-them" >issue. It's a problem to be solved in a way that satisfies needs. Whose needs? >There are several people (at least) in this newsgroup who make darn good >salaries in their "day jobs." Should they all be fired and replaced by >newbies when the economy slips and profit dips? i suspect many of them will be. Remember the "dot.com bust"? >What will that do to a >business? Pay cuts -- reasonable ones -- may help, though, especially if >there are expectations -- reasonable ones, again -- for future >improvement in the entire picture. You need to read up on the Great Depression. Which I fear we are in danger of repeating. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >I've read all your "Auto Bailout" posts in this thread, and I simply >cannot see your reasoning. For example, the idea of firing highly-paid [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >big factor, they are not the only one. Experience and skills are >important, and are worth higher pay. One of the problems here is that experienced worker eventually gets to the point where his experience no longer contributes more to the company than it did last year. Yet, that employee wants a raise every year. Once the production line employee gains enough experience to do his job function effectively, his value to the company flattens out. There's a fallacy in thinking that experience makes a worker more productive. There are many jobs that can be done as effectively by a person with one year's experience as by an employee with 25 year's experience. Those extra 24 years don't add anything of benefit to the company, but the cost-per-unit of the product rises each year. If the company can't retrieve that increase in cost by selling the product at a higher price, then hard decisions have to be made. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> I've read all your "Auto Bailout" posts in this thread, and I simply >> cannot see your reasoning. For example, the idea of firing [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > company than it did last year. Yet, that employee wants a raise every > year. There's something in that way of thinking. > Once the production line employee gains enough experience to do his > job function effectively, his value to the company flattens out. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > company can't retrieve that increase in cost by selling the product at > a higher price, then hard decisions have to be made. Another way of thinking: There are always changes being sought, new products being considered, new methods being introduced. Seasoned employees are probably better at evaluating those changes, products, and methods -- and also better at seeing the possible flaws. They are also invaluable in helping new-hires learn the ropes. Plus: Morale is improved when there are rewards for doing a praise-worthy job. The problem probably comes in when rewards -- raises -- are issued across the board. That practice is primarily due to unions -- the UAW (United Auto Workers) in this case. Unions may well be biting [off] the hand that feeds them. Changing that won't be easy. Finally, working year after year for the same hourly wage will encourage people to find another job elsewhere. A company can lose some very good employees by treating everyone as replaceable nonentities. SignatureMaria C. >>> I've read all your "Auto Bailout" posts in this thread, and I simply >>> cannot see your reasoning. For example, the idea of firing [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >employees are probably better at evaluating those changes, products, >and methods -- and also better at seeing the possible flaws. If by "seasoned employees" you mean the wage earners, no. Detroit management rarely asked them for anything but their eight hours. Nissan and Toyota are the ones who sought worker input. >They are also invaluable in helping new-hires learn the ropes. What "ropes"? have you ever worked on an assembly line? >Plus: Morale is improved when there are rewards for doing a >praise-worthy job. The problem probably comes in when rewards -- >raises -- are issued across the board. That practice is primarily due to >unions -- the UAW (United Auto Workers) in this case. Unions may well be >biting [off] the hand that feeds them. Changing that won't be easy. What I said. >Finally, working year after year for the same hourly wage will encourage >people to find another job elsewhere. A company can lose some very good >employees by treating everyone as replaceable nonentities. Raises were atuomatic under unon contracts, and depended only on seniority. As you racked more years with the company, you got more money. When I was at Packard Electric Division. the young new hire women (always women -- white women) with the low wages were put on the Chevrolet wiring harness assembly "merry-go-round". Us young guys liked to go down and work with the Chevy line. But the Cadillac line was all older women whose hourly rates had risen so high that Chevy couldn't afford them. The young women were encouraged to have families and quit. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >If by "seasoned employees" you mean the wage earners, no. Detroit >management rarely asked them for anything but their eight hours. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >What "ropes"? have you ever worked on an assembly line? I don't see that her lack of experience on an assembly line disqualifies her. She's an automaker employee's wife and lives in an automaker employee's neighborhood, and in an automaker employee's town. She's probably picked up enough knowledge about what ropes there are to learn to be qualified to make that statement. You don't advance your argument by disparaging her. I'm not particularly in agreement that a 10-year employee is more qualified to show a new employee "the ropes" than a 2-year employee, though. Any assembly line operation has few ropes to learn by the very nature of the job function. The whole idea of a production assembly line is to reduce the tasks to a limited number of steps at each stage. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>If by "seasoned employees" you mean the wage earners, no. Detroit >>management rarely asked them for anything but their eight hours. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >there are to learn to be qualified to make that statement. You don't >advance your argument by disparaging her. Detroit time-management specialists spend a lot of time making sure that any specific task can be done by anyone with a minimum of training. About the only "rope" to learn is how to report your time and where the toilets are. >I'm not particularly in agreement that a 10-year employee is more >qualified to show a new employee "the ropes" than a 2-year employee, >though. Any assembly line operation has few ropes to learn by the >very nature of the job function. The whole idea of a production >assembly line is to reduce the tasks to a limited number of steps at >each stage. Right. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>If by "seasoned employees" you mean the wage earners, no. Detroit >>>management rarely asked them for anything but their eight hours. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >of training. About the only "rope" to learn is how to report your >time and where the toilets are. You fail to see my point. You have questioned her ability to express an opinion about learning the ropes based on the assumption that she has not worked on an assembly line. While, in fact, she does have sufficient exposure to express such an opinion. One might challenge your statement by saying "Have you ever been a time-management specialist, and can you personally verify that they actually know what they are doing?". >>I'm not particularly in agreement that a 10-year employee is more >>qualified to show a new employee "the ropes" than a 2-year employee, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Right. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida tony cooper wrote, to Hatunen: > You fail to see my point. You have questioned her ability to express > an opinion about learning the ropes based on the assumption that she [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > time-management specialist, and can you personally verify that they > actually know what they are doing?". See my reply to Hatunen of a few minutes ago. SignatureMaria C. >>>>If by "seasoned employees" you mean the wage earners, no. Detroit >>>>management rarely asked them for anything but their eight hours. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >has not worked on an assembly line. While, in fact, she does have >sufficient exposure to express such an opinion. One needs no exposure at all to exprss an opionion. >One might challenge your statement by saying "Have you ever been a >time-management specialist, and can you personally verify that they >actually know what they are doing?". Some of that was part of my job when I was designing production equipment for GM. The designer has to work with the clipboard-and -stopwatch people Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>>If by "seasoned employees" you mean the wage earners, no. Detroit >>>>>management rarely asked them for anything but their eight hours. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >equipment for GM. The designer has to work with the clipboard-and >-stopwatch people Based on what Maria said later, she's had much closer contact: she's been sleeping with a clipboard-and-stopwatch person. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>If by "seasoned employees" you mean the wage earners, no. Detroit >>>>>>management rarely asked them for anything but their eight hours. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >Based on what Maria said later, she's had much closer contact: she's >been sleeping with a clipboard-and-stopwatch person. And my comments, and I assumed also hers, were about the blue-collar workers. If she is arguing about white-collar workers we have largely been talking past each other. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> If by "seasoned employees" you mean the wage earners, no. Detroit >>> management rarely asked them for anything but their eight hours. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> >>> What "ropes"? have you ever worked on an assembly line? No. Does that invalidate my opionion? >> I don't see that her lack of experience on an assembly line >> disqualifies her. She's an automaker employee's wife and lives in an >> automaker employee's neighborhood, and in an automaker employee's >> town. She's probably picked up enough knowledge about what ropes >> there are to learn to be qualified to make that statement. You don't >> advance your argument by disparaging her. Thank you, Tony. I would have said the same thing in less reasonable terms and then regretted it. I will add that some of my aunts and uncles, two of my brothers-in-law, and several cousins, nephews, nieces, and long-time friends are (or have been) auto workers. I'm not sure, though, how many of our neighbors are/have been auto workers. But you're right that the Detroit area is pretty much "auto-centered." I've absorbed a lot. > Detroit time-management specialists By "time-management specialists" do you mean the people they call (or used to call) "industrial engineers" or "time-study" people, or "head choppers"? If so, that's what my husband did for years at Chrysler and then Ford. Not that that gives me any auto experience, but again, I've absorbed a lot. > .....spend a lot of time making > sure that any specific task can be done by anyone with a minimum > of training. About the only "rope" to learn is how to report your > time and where the toilets are. That last sounds as if you are looking down your nose at the workers. While there may be some exceptions (who probably don't last all that long), auto workers are not stupid. >> I'm not particularly in agreement that a 10-year employee is more >> qualified to show a new employee "the ropes" than a 2-year employee, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Right. And there are workers who assist by making suggestions that turn out to be good. SignatureMaria C. >>>> If by "seasoned employees" you mean the wage earners, no. Detroit >>>> management rarely asked them for anything but their eight hours. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >No. Does that invalidate my opionion? Can an opinion be invalidated? >>> I don't see that her lack of experience on an assembly line >>> disqualifies her. She's an automaker employee's wife and lives in an [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >are/have been auto workers. But you're right that the Detroit area is >pretty much "auto-centered." I've absorbed a lot. So, since you're so knowledgable, what sort of "ropes" are you talking about here? Educate me sicne you seem to wantto invalidate my opinion. >> Detroit time-management specialists > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >then Ford. Not that that gives me any auto experience, but again, I've >absorbed a lot. So your husband isn't/wasn't a line worker? That makes a difference. I was under the impression that he was a union member. In retrospect, I'm not sure how I got that impression, but certainly the white-collar workers might have "ropes" to teach. I have only been referring to the hands-on assembly line workers. I apologize since we seem to be talking about two different things. >> .....spend a lot of time making >> sure that any specific task can be done by anyone with a minimum [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >While there may be some exceptions (who probably don't last all that >long), auto workers are not stupid. NO, I'm not looking down on the workers. But I do feel they are stuck with rather mind-numbing jobs wtih little room for variety or innovation. >>> I'm not particularly in agreement that a 10-year employee is more >>> qualified to show a new employee "the ropes" than a 2-year employee, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >And there are workers who assist by making suggestions that turn out to >be good. Sure. But on an assembly line a "good" suggestion is one that makes the task even quicker and easier. If it's quicker enough to increase production a shop stewart will show up making demands before allowing its use. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>> If by "seasoned employees" you mean the wage earners, no. Detroit >>>>> management rarely asked them for anything but their eight hours. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > talking about here? Educate me sicne you seem to wantto > invalidate my opinion. What I asked is whether an opinion can be invalidated. An opinion is a personal belief, and it may -- or may not -- be reasonable. Either way, I would rather persuade someone to see my side than declare his or her opinion "invalid." I see a difference between the two, and hope I'm not perceived as "declaring" anything about the way you think. However, that may be the perception: my skills at persuading are not as good as I'd like them to be. >>> Detroit time-management specialists >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > but certainly the white-collar workers might have "ropes" to > teach. My husband was on the assembly line only in the very early days of his career. Once he became a time-study guy, he probably spent as much time observing/timing the line as he spent in the office. > I have only been referring to the hands-on assembly line workers. > I apologize since we seem to be talking about two different > things. I'm sure I could have been plainer. No problem. SignatureMaria C. >>I've read all your "Auto Bailout" posts in this thread, and I simply >>cannot see your reasoning. For example, the idea of firing highly-paid [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >company than it did last year. Yet, that employee wants a raise every >year. When you're right, you're right, but convince union workers who've been brainwashed by union bosses of that. <snip> SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > One of the problems here is that experienced worker eventually gets to > the point where his experience no longer contributes more to the company [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > retrieve that increase in cost by selling the product at a higher price, > then hard decisions have to be made. Do you have pay systems that give an additional rise (above the increase to starting salary made to cover inflation) to people for many many years? Over here a lot of employers are moving away from these on the back of sex discrimination legislation. For exactly the reason you give, once you've got enough experience you probably won't be getting any better, and female workers are likely to have spent less of their lives in the workplace than males, so be further down the scale. As I understand it, there have only been a couple of inconclusive test cases, so whether it really is illegal is a good question - but not one people want to risk. SignatureWaterways route planning website: http://canalplan.org.uk >> One of the problems here is that experienced worker eventually gets >> to the point where his experience no longer contributes more to the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > increase to starting salary made to cover inflation) to people for > many many years? Additional? There have been years when Lockheed (my erstwhile employer) gave out raises that barely covered a Cost of Living Adjustment (COLA). I believe that the hourly employees had the COLA rights written in their contract. ObAUE: I has been mentioned before, but on these shores we get raises instead of rises. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> One of the problems here is that experienced worker eventually gets to >>> the point where his experience no longer contributes more to the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Additional? There have been years when Lockheed (my erstwhile employer) > gave out raises that barely covered a Cost of Living Adjustment (COLA). perhaps "the increase" should have been "any increase". I know "COLA" as a cost of living /addition/ - paid for living somewhere where the cost of living is higher than in your home country. > I believe that the hourly employees had the COLA rights written in their > contract. Hourly employees are those eligible for overtime, have I remembered that correctly? > ObAUE: I has been mentioned before, but on these shores we get raises > instead of rises. I think I'd osmosed that. SignatureWaterways route planning website: http://canalplan.org.uk >>> Do you have pay systems that give an additional rise (above the >>> increase to starting salary made to cover inflation) to people for [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Hourly employees are those eligible for overtime, have I remembered > that correctly? Yes, but Boeing and Lockheed paid overtime for the lower-range salaried help also. It was done on a sliding scale between 1.5 and 1 times the hourly pay, up to a preset salary level at which there was no more overtime compensation at all. Under certain conditions (Sundays and holidays), an hourly employee could be making quite a bit more money per hour than a salaried one. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> One of the problems here is that experienced worker eventually gets >>> to the point where his experience no longer contributes more to the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I believe that the hourly employees had the COLA rights written in their > contract. That's perfectly common in the UK, especially in times of high inflation. My employer has recently given a range of rises (in addition to promotions) which usually go from something like 0% to 5%. Those who get 0% are being given an effective pay cut for the following year. In the absence of any other reason for a rise, you considered yourself lucky to get 3%, even when inflation was nearer 5%. SignatureDavid >> One of the problems here is that experienced worker eventually gets to >> the point where his experience no longer contributes more to the company [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Do you have pay systems that give an additional rise (above the increase >to starting salary made to cover inflation) to people for many many years? There are various "systems" in the US, but most US employees are under no system except the government-imposed minimum wage laws. Employers are not required to give raises unless there is a contract involved. The contract may be an individual contract or a group contract like a union contract. An organization may have a policy regarding raises, but a policy can be changed if there is no contract. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >there are expectations -- reasonable ones, again -- for future >improvement in the entire picture. We're beginning to see cases of people accepting pay cuts in Ireland for the common good. You'll be seeing it in America too, I predict, if you haven't already. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >While I agree that Chapter 11 might give them the time they need, will >the unions allow them to lower wages or to fire high paid workers to >hire lower paid ones? If you're a debtor in Chapter 11, you can simply reject your union labor contracts and hire everyone back on whatever terms they're willing to accept. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the unions allow them to lower wages or to fire high paid workers to >hire lower paid ones? Depending on what the bankruptcy court says, the unions will have no choice. Chapter 11 allows a firm to free itself from prior contractual obligations on orders of the court. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen wrote, in part, on Friday Dec. 6 at 5:19 PM: > I seriously doubt that anyone *wants* the Big Three to go > belly-up, but the fact is that Detroit refuses to learn. As far [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Americans want more than Detroit product, Detroit is going to > suffer. I've come across an article in Friday's Detroit Free Press which may be of interest. It refutes some of what you say (but it's from a Detroit paper, of course). The article is "7 Myths about Detroit automakers" It starts out: begin excerpt===The debate over aid to the Detroit-based automakers is awash with half-truths and misrepresentations that are endlessly repeated by everyone from members of Congress to journalists. Here are seven myths about the companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case. Myth No. 1: Nobody buys their vehicles Reality: General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of nearly 700,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota. Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year. Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.===end excerpt. The full article is at http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008812050400 or http://tinyurl.com/5rj2p9 SignatureMaria C. > It starts out: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- > about 3,000 more than Toyota. I had to go back to the article to make sure that you hadn't left out a few zeroes. Selling 0.03% more than your closest competitor makes "world's largest" a bit strongly worded. > Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 > million vehicles in the United States last year. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > or > http://tinyurl.com/5rj2p9 I was also impressed by what looks to be weasel wording in ] Myth No. 7: Their union workers are lazy and overpaid ] ] Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in ] North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on ] manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per ] employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in ] North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM. That "North America" makes me wonder how many of those vehicle assembly plants are in Mexico and, if they are, whether workers there covered by the same union contracts as those in Detroit. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |In the beginning, there were no 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |reasons, there were only causes. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Daniel Dennet kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> It starts out: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > a few zeroes. Selling 0.03% more than your closest competitor makes > "world's largest" a bit strongly worded. I know automaking is not a sport, but: Winning by one run or one goal is still a win, isn't it? And championships can often be a matter of seconds or inches or some other measure. If the statment above (in Myth #1) is a lie, then that's another matter, and I'd be very upset with the Free Press. >> Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 >> million vehicles in the United States last year. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > assembly plants are in Mexico and, if they are, whether workers there > covered by the same union contracts as those in Detroit. Well, as I said, the article is from a Detroit newspaper. As for "weasel wording," that may or may not be deliberate, and may or may not signal fudging on anything. But I know that perceptions (of the readers) matter, so the suspicion of "weasel wording" is not a good thing. As for "North America" -- that could include Mexico and Canada (as well as the US), but I don't know whether is does in the sentence quoted. But: It's a breath of fresh air to see something rather positive about American automakers for a change. I get the feeling sometimes that some Americans just want to set fire to American auto plants and kill all the workers -- or at least make them lose their jobs and not be able to get other jobs. (I know. That's an exaggeration. There's a lot of ill will out there, though.) SignatureMaria C. Resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of east Tennessee. >>> It starts out: >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > is still a win, isn't it? And championships can often be a matter of > seconds or inches or some other measure. Sure, but to put it in perspective, that difference is essentially equivalent to the 1/100 second that Michael Phelphs edged out Milorad Cavic by in the 100m butterfly in Beijing. Back when HP used to make measurement equipment, we used to joke that HP was resplonsible for the presence of measurable levels of toxins all over the world. Not that we put them there, but we were the only company that made equipment sensitive enough to measure the background levels. Forty years ago, Phelps's race would have been declared a dead heat, because they only trusted the clocks to measure differences of 0.1 seconds. For worldwide aggregated sales figures, I don't think I'd trust that level of precision, certainly not enough to call one the "worlds largest automaker" without at least adding "barely edging out" or adding "only" to the "3,000". > If the statment above (in Myth #1) is a lie, then that's another > matter, and I'd be very upset with the Free Press. I'm sure it's not a lie, and I'm sure that those are the numbers the two companies reported and represent their best guess as to what they sold. But I've also worked closely enough with people who try to come up with new ways for companies to figure out how they actually did (based on how and when various subunits report how they did) that I take such precision with a large grain of salt. The nearest 1%, sure. The nearest tenth of a percent? Maybe, if I'm convinced they've got good analytics in place. The nearest hundredth of a percent? Not likely. [snip] >> I was also impressed by what looks to be weasel wording in >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > well as the US), but I don't know whether is does in the sentence > quoted. Looking at the press release from the report http://www.automk.com/thread-61370-1-1.html it looks as though most of the plants in question are in the US, though not all around Detroit. The most productive was Chrysler's Toledo South plant, which sounds a bit non-traditional: Chrysler's Toledo South plant features an innovative collaboration with three suppliers. Kuka Group manages the body shop. Magna Steyr manages the paint shop, and Hyundai Mobis handles chassis assembly for the Jeep Wrangler. But the only Mexican plant mentioned was Ford's Hermosillo plant, which led in the "compact premium conventional car" category. > But: It's a breath of fresh air to see something rather positive > about American automakers for a change. I get the feeling sometimes > that some Americans just want to set fire to American auto plants > and kill all the workers -- or at least make them lose their jobs > and not be able to get other jobs. (I know. That's an > exaggeration. There's a lot of ill will out there, though.) I think that what there is is very little sympathy, after decades of watching the union strike and of telling the auto makers "Look, idiots: we keep telling you with our wallets what kind of car we want to buy." As well as of seeing them push "American" as a feature that's supposed to more than compensate for shortcomings in the product. You don't need the charity of "Buy American" if you make a product Americans want to buy anyway. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"You can't prove it *isn't* so!" is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |as good as Q.E.D. in folk logic--as Palo Alto, CA 94304 |though it were necessary to submit |a piece of the moon to chemical kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |analysis before you could be sure (650)857-7572 |that it was not made of green |cheese. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Bergen Evans >>> Maria C. writes, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > equivalent to the 1/100 second that Michael Phelphs edged out Milorad > Cavic by in the 100m butterfly in Beijing. Even so, 3,000 cars are 3,000 cars, and winning by 1/100th of a second is better than a tie. Differences can be small and still be worth noting. > Back when HP used to make measurement equipment, we used to joke that > HP was resplonsible for the presence of measurable levels of toxins [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > dead heat, because they only trusted the clocks to measure differences > of 0.1 seconds. As an HP user (PC, printer, etc.), I find that interesting and a good "plus" in the HP column. It's made narrow wins more easily recognized. (And wins are wins.) > For worldwide aggregated sales figures, I don't think I'd trust that > level of precision, certainly not enough to call one the "worlds [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > two companies reported and represent their best guess as to what they > sold. I'm not so sure that a "best guess" is involved. Mistakes in tallies may have been made, but I doubt very much that guesses (or estimates) are used in this instance. > ...But I've also worked closely enough with people who try to come > up with new ways for companies to figure out how they actually did [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > they've got good analytics in place. The nearest hundredth of a > percent? Not likely. Again, I'm not so sure that actual numbers of cars sold (or leased) is anything but exact. Some of the numbers used in the Free Press article are obviously rounded off, though. Note the instances of "about" and "nearly." But I doubt that the number "9,369,524" is estimated. (Could the newspaper or its source have made an error? Could the number have been 9,369,523? Or, 9,396,524? If so, that's a typo or a transposition, not something deliberately misleading.) > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > I think that what there is is very little sympathy, after decades of > watching the union strike I see the unions and the auto companies as being two separate factors. > .....and of telling the auto makers "Look, > idiots: we keep telling you with our wallets what kind of car we want > to buy." Isn't it more a case of what price is wanted? Or, am I wrong? What kind of car do you want, Evan? And what do you want to pay for it? It may be that the "Big Three" can't meet the price range with the current union* situation. That is not any would-be consumer's fault, but it's still a real problem. (And if I knew the perfect solution, I'd tell anyone who'd listen.) *Toyota and Honda workers in US plants are not, as far as I know right now, represented by the UAW (or any other union). Thus, their pay scales and benefits can be less than for the Big Three workers. That makes a difference in pricing. > .......As well as of seeing them push "American" as a feature > that's supposed to more than compensate for shortcomings in the > product. You don't need the charity of "Buy American" if you make a > product Americans want to buy anyway. Pushing "American" as a feature does not necessarily mean the product has shortcomings. It's more about the American economy than the cars themselves. Is it somehow wrong for an American (or an American car company) to push "Buy American"? Is "Push Earth and all it's countries" the politically correct thing for everyone in every country to do? I see nothing wrong with encouraging Americans to buy American products. That sort of thing keeps our economy in better shape. And it's not as if the US ignores the welfare of others in the world. We try to (and do) help others. Also: Frankly, I see quality differences between many foreign-made products and the products we used to make in the US. (I'm not talking about cars; I've never owned or even driven a "foreign" car.) And the cheaper prices of foreign-made goods (mainly due to much lower labor costs) generally cause American manufacturers to cut corners to compete. Result: inferior products everywhere. Where are we headed with all this? Maria C., who will probably regret saying all I've just said in this forum. >>> But: It's a breath of fresh air to see something rather positive >>> about American automakers for a change. I get the feeling [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I see the unions and the auto companies as being two separate > factors. They are. There's resentment against both. Which is why I wrote both that and this: >> .....and of telling the auto makers "Look, idiots: we keep telling >> you with our wallets what kind of car we want to buy." > > Isn't it more a case of what price is wanted? Or, am I wrong? I think you are. Back in the '70s, when Japanese cars first hit the American market in a big way, price was the driving factor, and I think that the American auto makers convinced themselves that that was the main reason people continued to buy non-American cars. > What kind of car do you want, Evan? A Honda Accord. I bought my first one in 1992 and my second in 1998. I'll quite probably buy my third next year. I like the way they feel, I like the way they look, and I like their reliability. The close contenders for the first two were Acuras, Toyotas, and Volkswagens. Pretty much whenever I drive an American car, I'm reminded of why I wouldn't want one. When we bought our last one, we test drove a Toyota Camry. At the time, Camrys and Accords were probably the most commonly seen cars in the Bay Area. It was nice, but I was more comfortable in the Accord. I asked the Toyota dealer what the difference was and he said that essentially there were Accord people and Camry people, and Accord people tended to buy multiple Accords and Camry people tended to buy multiple Camrys, and both were very happy with their choices. If there was a car from an American company that had the features I like and the feel I like--and I had reason to believe that it had similar reliability--I'd certainly consider it, and I might even be willing to pay a little more. Or perhaps not. The two Hondas I made were made in the United States, presumably by American workers. It's not clear to me why this is different from buying a car made by American (or even not) Ford or GM workers. > And what do you want to pay for it? It may be that the "Big Three" > can't meet the price range with the current union* situation. That [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the cars themselves. Is it somehow wrong for an American (or an > American car company) to push "Buy American"? Pushing "American" doesn't necessarily mean that the product has shortcomings if it's "And among all the other reasons why this is the better car, it's made by an American company". When it's "use the fact that it's made by an American company to influence your buying decision", you're essentially saying "You should buy our car even though you would otherwise have considered another one a better value". That's either "Buy what you consider an inferior car" or "Spend more than you consider the car to be worth". Or both. > Is "Push Earth and all it's countries" the politically correct thing > for everyone in every country to do? If the auto companies see this as the problem rather than their market saying "We want the best product at the best price regardless of which company makes it", they're seeing straw men. > I see nothing wrong with encouraging Americans to buy American > products. That sort of thing keeps our economy in better shape. And [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > cut corners to compete. Result: inferior products everywhere. Where > are we headed with all this? I don't think that it's lower labor costs that have led to consumer acceptance of Canon, Casio, Hitachi, Nikon, Nintendo, Nokia, Olympus, Onkyo, Panasonic, Pentax, Philips, Pioneer, Ricoh, Samsung, Sanyo, Seiko, Sharp, Siemens, Sony, Toshiba, and others. Rather it's design and better control over manufacturing (leading to better reliability and lower cost). They are perceived as making high-quality products, and people these days buy what they consider to be the best product at their price point. Yeah, there's a labor cost component when it comes to things like cheap toys and clothing, but in most people's minds, I suspect that cars are more like televisions, cameras, phones, copiers, and the like. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |This case--and I must be careful 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |not to fall into Spooner's trap Palo Alto, CA 94304 |here--concerns a group of warring |bankers. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >It was nice, but I was more comfortable in the Accord. I asked the >Toyota dealer what the difference was and he said that essentially >there were Accord people and Camry people, and Accord people tended >to buy multiple Accords and Camry people tended to buy multiple >Camrys, and both were very happy with their choices. Honda builds its U.S. family cars to a somewhat sportier point in the design space than Toyota does (although they may have lost some of that in the new G8 Accord, which I don't like nearly as much as I did my G7). I asked a Honda dealer about this once, and she said that it was MacPherson struts, used in most other cars in that class, that made the handling of the '01 Camry feel mushier than the '01 Accord with double-wishbone suspension. I've been driving Accords ever since. (The '01 was replaced with an '02 after a total-loss accident, followed by an '05, and now an '08.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > I asked a Honda dealer about this once, and she said that it > was MacPherson struts, used in most other cars in that class, that > made the handling of the '01 Camry feel mushier than the '01 Accord > with double-wishbone suspension. That makes no sense. Many out and out sports cars have McPherson struts. Brands using McPherson struts include Jaguar, BMW, and Porsche. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > I don't think that it's lower labor costs that have led to consumer > acceptance of Canon, Casio, Hitachi, Nikon, Nintendo, Nokia, Olympus, > Onkyo, Panasonic, Pentax, Philips, Pioneer, Ricoh, Samsung, Sanyo, > Seiko, Some years ago I saw a TV interview of a Seiko executive. He was talking about the early days, and how they didn't see how they could possibly compete with a giant like Timex for the mass market. Now it's hard to find a Timex. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > Some years ago I saw a TV interview of a Seiko executive. He was > talking about the early days, and how they didn't see how they could > possibly compete with a giant like Timex for the mass market. Now it's > hard to find a Timex. (Holds up wristwatch wrist) Best digital watch I've had since my first one, which was a Seiko that probably cost 5 times as much and had fewer functions. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "...one man's feature is another man's bug." msb@vex.net --Chris Torek >> Some years ago I saw a TV interview of a Seiko executive. He was >> talking about the early days, and how they didn't see how they could [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Best digital watch I've had since my first one, which was a Seiko that >probably cost 5 times as much and had fewer functions. The number of functions a watch has bears, as often as not, an inverse relationship to the quality of the watch. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> I don't think that it's lower labor costs that have led to consumer >> acceptance of Canon, Casio, Hitachi, Nikon, Nintendo, Nokia, Olympus, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >possibly compete with a giant like Timex for the mass market. Now it's >hard to find a Timex. I have two of them. Both cost so little I don't care if I have to throw them away and both have batteries with incredibly long lives. They are back-up watches for when my good watch needs a replacement battery. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Cutting to the bottom line: > I don't think that it's lower labor costs that have led to consumer > acceptance of Canon, Casio, Hitachi, Nikon, Nintendo, Nokia, Olympus, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and people these days buy what they consider to be the best product at > their price point. I disagree. Lower pricing gave the foreign manufactureres an edge good enough to discourage production in US factories. Flatly, the US paid its employees more. In the end, many of the US manufacturers lost out, and not because of poor quality. I'm not saying the products you mention are bad; but neither were the US brands. I'm just saying that the price is what matters, and that's where the US is at a disadvantage. > Yeah, there's a labor cost component when it comes to things like > cheap toys and clothing, but in most people's minds, I suspect that > cars are more like televisions, cameras, phones, copiers, and the > like. The price factor is not just in toys and clothing. Also, I sincerely do not believe that foreign-made products are necessarily superior to what can be made here. (Note that I am not getting into foreign-managed, US-made items. There are complicating factors there.) And speaking of [tele]phones, etc., I'm not thrilled with any of them. Too much built in, controls often too tiny, and the life-span is often not very long. And getting repairs made is not always an option. It's almost better to buy new. (Perhaps frequently.) Maria C., who doesn't really like any phone we've bought since the days of getting one from Ma Bell. Now, there was a /sturdy/ piece of equipment. > Cutting to the bottom line: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the US brands. I'm just saying that the price is what matters, and > that's where the US is at a disadvantage. As I said, I think that price was what got them in the door, but they've now had decades to build brand loyalty, and they have done so very effectively. To the point where in quite a number of areas, American brands are the ones that have to prove themselves in the minds of many consumers. >> Yeah, there's a labor cost component when it comes to things like >> cheap toys and clothing, but in most people's minds, I suspect that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > do not believe that foreign-made products are necessarily superior > to what can be made here. I don't either. Nor do I think that there's any reason to believe them to be inferior. But for at least the last couple of decades, specific companies (many outside of the US) have demonstrated that they make very high-quality products. And in some of those markets, US companies essentially cede them the vast middle ground, producing either very expensive high-end equipment or the kind of cheap (in both senses) knock-offs that used to be associated with the phrase "Made in Japan". > (Note that I am not getting into foreign-managed, US-made > items. There are complicating factors there.) I think, however, that it's the crux of the problem. My understanding is that my Honda would get less than neutral reception around Detroit in a way that a GM car also made in Ohio wouldn't. Or even a Mexican-made Ford. Consumers these days trust (or don't trust) the brand, without worrying about where it's made. And many of the brands they trust aren't American. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"It makes you wonder if there is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |anything to astrology after all." Palo Alto, CA 94304 | |"Oh, there is," said Susan. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |"Delusion, wishful thinking and (650)857-7572 |gullibility." http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Maria C. writes, in part: >> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote, in part: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > American brands are the ones that have to prove themselves in the > minds of many consumers. True. There's a whole generation out there who have little knowledge of, and little experience with, many American products. New manufacturing, merchandising, and marketing approaches are needed if American brands are to become desirable again. >>> Yeah, there's a labor cost component when it comes to things like >>> cheap toys and clothing, but in most people's minds, I suspect that [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > in a way that a GM car also made in Ohio wouldn't. Or even a > Mexican-made Ford. There is nothing more irritating to most auto workers in and around Detroit than seeing other Detroiters/Michiganders driving non-"American" cars -- particularly new ones. Someone who drives an old, used Toyota is another story (not that "previously-owned" cars actually have identifying marks such as stickers reading "Joe's Used Car City"). An older used car is an older used car regardless of origin. It's not competing directly with new American cars. Whatever the logic, that's the way it is. > Consumers these days trust (or don't trust) the brand, without > worrying about where it's made. And many of the brands they trust > aren't American. I can't disagree. As I said above, there's a whole generation out there who have little knowledge of, and little experience with, many American products. Sooner or later, that will worsen the American economy. We need to be producing (cars, crops, whatever), not just acting as sales agents. And that's my thinking on this whole matter. SignatureMaria C. >> Maria C. writes, in part: >>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote, in part: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > True. There's a whole generation out there who have little knowledge > of, and little experience with, many American products. Or they have experience with them and don't like it. You said you've never driven a "foreign" car. I've driven lots of American cars. My preference isn't based on ignorance, but experience. I learned to drive on a Plymouth Valiant, and the first car I owned was a Chevy Citation. (It'll take a lot to get *that* experience out of my biases.) HP's pool cars (back when such things existed) were all Fords. > New manufacturing, merchandising, and marketing approaches are > needed if American brands are to become desirable again. and design, as well. Before it discontinued the line in 2004, GM had an advertising campaign touting the new cars as "not your father's Oldsmobile". In some consumer electronics domains, American companies have a "stodgy", "old-fashioned" connotation. Which may not be entirely fair, but they're going to have to come up with some advances of their own before they're not perceived as Sony or Toshiba wannabes. >>> (Note that I am not getting into foreign-managed, US-made >>> items. There are complicating factors there.) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > origin. It's not competing directly with new American cars. Whatever > the logic, that's the way it is. But that casts it as "UAW vs. non-UAW" not "American vs. non- American", which is the way the companies advertise the issue. I can see "support the US economy", but I don't see any reason to take the side of a GM worker in Ohio over a Honda worker in Ohio. >> Consumers these days trust (or don't trust) the brand, without >> worrying about where it's made. And many of the brands they trust [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > economy. We need to be producing (cars, crops, whatever), not just > acting as sales agents. And that's my thinking on this whole matter. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The look on our faces isn't confusion. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |It's disbelief. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | | Jon Stewart kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> New manufacturing, merchandising, and marketing approaches are >> needed if American brands are to become desirable again. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of their own before they're not perceived as Sony or Toshiba > wannabes. Interestingly enough, back in, say, 1949 through 1953, maybe longer, the Oldsmobile Rocket 88 was anything but stodgy. I had the pleasure of driving a 1951 and a 1953 model a few times. Rockets, they were. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> New manufacturing, merchandising, and marketing approaches are >>> needed if American brands are to become desirable again. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Oldsmobile Rocket 88 was anything but stodgy. I had the pleasure of driving >a 1951 and a 1953 model a few times. Rockets, they were. Those were the days when cars were sold based on acceleration and speed. Back when the Main Street cruise, a la American Grafitti, was de rigeur for the young. Many a young man lusted for a 1956 Chevrolet with a 385 engine and dual carbs and dual exhaust. And certainly styling wasn't stodgy, with all those rocket exhaust tail lights and all those razor sharp tail fins. The cars may have been "sporty" but they were crap. For a while I had a 1957 Chevy convertible, the ultimate downtown cruiser and babe catcher, but it had constant problems. In 1963 I traded it in on a 1960 VW Beetle and was much happier. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>> New manufacturing, merchandising, and marketing approaches are >>>> needed if American brands are to become desirable again. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >babe catcher, but it had constant problems. In 1963 I traded it >in on a 1960 VW Beetle and was much happier. How did the babes react to that? SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>> New manufacturing, merchandising, and marketing approaches are >>>>> needed if American brands are to become desirable again. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >How did the babes react to that? The one I was married to by then loved it. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > In 1963 I traded it > in on a 1960 VW Beetle and was much happier. I had a 1960 Beetle. Mine had a gas gauge! SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> In 1963 I traded it >> in on a 1960 VW Beetle and was much happier. > >I had a 1960 Beetle. Mine had a gas gauge! Aftermarket, I presume. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:33:43 -0700: >>> In 1963 I traded it >>> in on a 1960 VW Beetle and was much happier. >> >> I had a 1960 Beetle. Mine had a gas gauge! > Aftermarket, I presume. The ones without gas guages had an extra small tank with enough gas for 20-30 miles. A bit disconcerting but it worked. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >> [somene had written:] >>>> In 1963 I traded it >>>> in on a 1960 VW Beetle and was much happier. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The ones without gas guages had an extra small tank with enough gas > for 20-30 miles. A bit disconcerting but it worked. Actually, there was just a switch to a gas line that came from the bottom of the same tank. http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=236_237_239&products_ id=1248 SignatureSkitt (AmE) Skitt wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:19:20 -0800: >>> [somene had written:] >>>>> In 1963 I traded it >>>>> in on a 1960 VW Beetle and was much happier. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> enough gas for 20-30 miles. A bit disconcerting but it >> worked. > Actually, there was just a switch to a gas line that came from > the bottom of the same tank. > http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=236_237_239&products_ id=1248 It seemed like perverse ingenuity to me when I encountered it in the first VW I rented in Europe. I was never very interested in the details only in the practice. That was also the one that operated its windshield washer by compressed air that you had to get at a gas station. I never could remember to fill up the air tank. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Hatunen wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:33:43 -0700: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >The ones without gas guages had an extra small tank with enough gas for >20-30 miles. A bit disconcerting but it worked. It wasn't an extra tank. IUt was a single tank but the tube that drew out the fuel had two openings, one about a gallon or so above the bottom of the tank and the main one at the bottom of the tank. A lever under the dash was turned to make the upper opening the operative one, and when the fuel level dropped to that opening and the car started coughing you reached under the dash and turned the lever to use the bottom opening. One you filled the tank you had to be sure to remember to turn the lever back or the next time the car started coughing you would actually be out of gas. One time I did run out of gas. We were on the autoroute north of Montreal and my wife had failed to reset the lever the last time she filled the tank, so when I reached down and turned the lever nothing happened. I was pretty angry, and had to traipse across the nearby cloverleaf to a gas station where they sold me a gallon (imperial) of gasoline in a can. I traipsed back to the car and poured the gas in the tank. Then I tried to start the car. I was getting very worried as I cranked and cranked. it turned out that my wife had "helpfully" turned the lever back to the upper opening, although I had not put in enough fuel to reach that opening. I have a philosophy that I really do try to follow. When you're in a mess, try to look at it the way you will when you tell your friends about it later over a beer. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > I have a philosophy that I really do try to follow. When you're > in a mess, try to look at it the way you will when you tell your > friends about it later over a beer. I try to imagine what I'll be doing in two days, by which time the "crisis" will have passed. SignatureDavid > It wasn't an extra tank. IUt was a single tank but the tube that > drew out the fuel had two openings, one about a gallon or so [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > the upper opening, although I had not put in enough fuel to reach > that opening. I had the VW on the "auxiliary tank" when we went to a show at the Carter Barron Amphitheater (ObAUE: why do people insist on calling a theater an amphitheater?) in far Northwest DC. I hadn't had time to fill up before going out there, so planned to fill up after the show. When we started home to Annandale in the Virginia suburbs, it was late at night and there were no gas stations open. I drove until the car ran out of gas. In desperation, I put the lever back to the "main tank" position, and miraculously the engine started and ran long enough to get us to a station that was open. Later, I figured out the two-openings-in-the-pipe system. What had evidently happened was that after the fuel level reached the top of the pipe and I switched to auxiliary, fuel had sloshed into the pipe so that when I switched back the car ran on that tiny bit of fuel in the pipe. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. John wrote on Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:35:36 -0500: > I had the VW on the "auxiliary tank" when we went to a show at > the Carter Barron Amphitheater (ObAUE: why do people insist on > calling a theater an amphitheater?) in far Northwest DC. Changing the topic again are we? I think the list of definitions of "Amphitheater" in the OED would cover both Carter-Barron and that at Wolf Trap in Virginia. I think US usage would have an open air aspect but the seats rising up from the action might be covered and there might be an actual stage with curtains and scenery not just an arena as the Greeks might have had. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Changing the topic again are we? I think the list of definitions of > "Amphitheater" in the OED would cover both Carter-Barron and that at > Wolf Trap in Virginia. I think US usage would have an open air aspect > but the seats rising up from the action might be covered and there might > be an actual stage with curtains and scenery not just an arena as the > Greeks might have had. I don't think the Greeks had amphitheaters. The Romans had both theaters and amphitheaters. The Colosseum was an amphitheater---two theaters facing one another to form an enclosure. The kind of people who sponsor and build outdoor theaters should know the difference. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. John wrote on Sat, 13 Dec 2008 15:12:17 -0500: >> Changing the topic again are we? I think the list of >> definitions of "Amphitheater" in the OED would cover both [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> stage with curtains and scenery not just an arena as the >> Greeks might have had. > I don't think the Greeks had amphitheaters. The Romans had > both theaters and amphitheaters. The Colosseum was an > amphitheater---two theaters facing one another to form an > enclosure. The kind of people who sponsor and build outdoor > theaters should know the difference. One of the definitions in the OED might cover the Greek and American theaters: "a semicircular rising gallery" but I agree that, strictly speaking, an amphitheater is a *double* theater. Would "theater in the round", like the Arena Stage in Washington be an amphitheater? I guess there has been a tendency for the word amphitheater to be used, however incorrectly, for open-air theaters. I seem to remember seeing the word used in National Parks. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >I don't think the Greeks had amphitheaters. The Romans had both >theaters and amphitheaters. The Colosseum was an amphitheater---two >theaters facing one another to form an enclosure. The kind of people >who sponsor and build outdoor theaters should know the difference. More likely they don't speak the same dialect as you do, and make a different distinction between those lexemes. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>> In 1963 I traded it >>> in on a 1960 VW Beetle and was much happier. >> >> I had a 1960 Beetle. Mine had a gas gauge! > > Aftermarket, I presume. Yes, dealer installed. A woman ran a red light in her Ford and T-boned me in my Fiat, totaling the Fiat, so I had to buy something in a hurry. The VW dealer had a new car on the lot that had been ordered with a gas gauge; it was available because the customer withdrew, and I took it. The accident was at or near the intersection of Glendale and Central. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > "Maria C.writes: >>> Maria C. writes, in part: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > biases.) HP's pool cars (back when such things existed) were all > Fords. I realize that some cars are better, bigger, smaller, faster, safer, cooler, more affordable, etc., than others. I've turned down some American cars and found others (American ones) that I prefer. So, I'm curious as to what you find/found preferable in the cars you buy/drive. What is the deal-closer? (Straight question, Evan. I'm not trying to give you a hard time.) >> New manufacturing, merchandising, and marketing approaches are >> needed if American brands are to become desirable again. I think that has begun already. The attitude I sense from the "Big Three" is that of being eager and competitive. They know what they're up against, and are trying to improve. > and design, as well. Before it discontinued the line in 2004, GM had > an advertising campaign touting the new cars as "not your father's > Oldsmobile". As I recall, the campaign wasn't particularly successful. > ...In some consumer electronics domains, American companies > have a "stodgy", "old-fashioned" connotation. Which may not be > entirely fair, but they're going to have to come up with some advances > of their own before they're not perceived as Sony or Toshiba > wannabes. Such as? (Generally speaking.) But back to thinking of cars: Do you also think there is anything old-fashioned or stodgy about American cars (or truck)? By the way, I did ride in a Toyota a couple of years ago. My sister-in-law and her husband had rented a car (and so had we) for a trip. Bri and I specifed to the car rental company that we wanted an American car (and ended up with a Dodge); s-i-l didn't do that, she just asked for a mid-sized (I think) car. Point: I found absolutely nothing in that Toyota superior to our rental or the cars we own or have owned. And I thought the car we rented was more comfortable than the Toyota, but that could have been my prejudice taking over. >>>> (Note that I am not getting into foreign-managed, US-made >>>> items. There are complicating factors there.) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > see "support the US economy", but I don't see any reason to take the > side of a GM worker in Ohio over a Honda worker in Ohio. Hmm. I don't see it as "UAW vs non-UAW." To me, it's American brand vs Non-American brand. I can see your thinking, though. As I've said somewhere, I think the UAW is a big part of the "Detroit" problem. The union is way too powerful, and makes it very hard to compete price-wise. The union was needed at one time, but my feeling is that that time is over with. [...] I didn't snip much of the above. If we go any further, some cuts will likely be in order. SignatureMaria C. >> "Maria C.writes: >>>> Maria C. writes, in part: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > buy/drive. What is the deal-closer? (Straight question, Evan. I'm not > trying to give you a hard time.) I'm actually not sure I can single out any feature. The "deal-closer" was the overall feel of riding in and driving the car. I'll hasten to add that the same criteria caused us to pick the Honda over other foreign brands, some of which (Acura, Toyota) were in the running and others (Mazda, Subaru) were just bad fits. I had forgotten, though, that there was one American brand that we did seriously consider: Saturn (from GM), which did feel as though it was trying to address the market that preferred foreign (especially Japanese) cars. (Of course, a week ago, GM announced that it was going to get rid of the Saturn brand.) >>> New manufacturing, merchandising, and marketing approaches are >>> needed if American brands are to become desirable again. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > As I recall, the campaign wasn't particularly successful. Nope. It wasn't responsible for killing the brand, but it wasn't enough to save it. In retrospect, showing cars from the '60s and '70s and saying "we're better than that now" isn't a tremendously good message. Image a food company saying "Remember how bad our stuff used to taste? It's not that bad anymore." The only companies I've seen get away with that kind of campaign are for things like mouthwash and medicine, where people understood the benefit and the taste was the thing that caused them to not use the product. >> ...In some consumer electronics domains, American companies have a >> "stodgy", "old-fashioned" connotation. Which may not be entirely >> fair, but they're going to have to come up with some advances of >> their own before they're not perceived as Sony or Toshiba wannabes. > > Such as? (Generally speaking.) It's hard to say. I think they've pretty much written themselves out of televisions and phones, and I think that Kodak's the only one hanging on in digital cameras (and even there I think they only do the lower end). There's still some life in the home theater market. I had thought that my receiver was a foreign brand, but it turns out that Harman Kardon is actually an American company. As is Bose, which is probably a good example of a company making advances. Where American companies seem to do well is in carving out new markets, although here (as Clayton Christensen discussed in _The Innovator's Dilemma_) it tends to be new companies rather than established ones that make the breakthroughs. I'm thinking of companies like TiVo or Garmin (although I'm not sure that counts as an American company) or Palm. (Or RIM, with the BlackBerry, but they're Canadian.) Or Apple, with the iPod. Actually, a good example of what I was talking about it probably Apple with the iPhone. They've established themselves as a player in the mobile phone market by essentially redefining what a phone is and selling "This is something you can't get anywhere else...and you want it." > But back to thinking of cars: Do you also think there is anything > old-fashioned or stodgy about American cars (or truck)? Yeah, although I couldn't tell you what. As I said, there's a lot of inertia they've got to overcome. > By the way, I did ride in a Toyota a couple of years ago. My > sister-in-law and her husband had rented a car (and so had we) for a [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Hmm. I don't see it as "UAW vs non-UAW." To me, it's American brand > vs Non-American brand. I can see your thinking, though. But why should they (or you) care whether a *brand* is American or not? Especially when the manufacturer employs Americans to build it and the product is sold by Americans. > As I've said somewhere, I think the UAW is a big part of the > "Detroit" problem. The union is way too powerful, and makes it very > hard to compete price-wise. The union was needed at one time, but my > feeling is that that time is over with. I can agree with you there. I think that another part of the problem is that the union got powerful back when there wasn't meaningful outside competition: if you shut down Detroit, you essentially shut down the industry. So they had a lot of leverage and got power that they probably shouldn't have, because it helped them (as an organization) to be able to keep demonstrating their power to their members, and the only way to do that was to keep asking for more. And the companies could give in, since at least they knew that their competition would be equally hurt. Now the union still has that power, but only over part of the industry: if they actually use their power now, they can hurt the American companies, but the rest of the industry keeps going--with less competition. Which means that the American companies have even less ability to say "No" to the union, but every time they say "Yes", they put themselves at a further competitive disadvantage (not with each other, but with everybody else). Their only credible retort is "We'll go out of business and take you down with us." SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |A specification which calls for 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |network-wide use of encryption, but Palo Alto, CA 94304 |invokes the Tooth Fairy to handle |key distribution, is a useless kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |farce. (650)857-7572 | Henry Spencer http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ ... much of interest in his and my ongoing talk about the auto business. Thank you very much, Evan, for all your comments and information. I really do appreciate your input. Now, however, I think we've covered the topic. You've made me rethink a few of my opinions and realize that (as I've indicated) prejudice plays a part in my views. If you want to add anything, feel free. I'll read it (and comment if I can). SignatureMaria C. > ... much of interest in his and my ongoing talk about the auto business. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If you want to add anything, feel free. I'll read it (and comment if I > can). I think we've pretty much covered the ground. It was an interesting conversation. And I think (at least I hope) we managed to get through it without anybody's feelings getting hurt. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Pious Jews have a category of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |questions that can harmlessly be Palo Alto, CA 94304 |allowed to go without an answer |until the Messiah comes. I suspect kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |that this is one of them. (650)857-7572 | Joseph C. Fineman http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> ... much of interest in his and my ongoing talk about the auto >> business. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > conversation. And I think (at least I hope) we managed to get through > it without anybody's feelings getting hurt. You've never hurt my feelings (and probably no one else's, either). You are a very gracious person, Evan. On the other hand, I am somewhat of a hothead. I do hope I haven't -- ever -- hurt your feelings. And yes, we've pretty much covered the ground on this topic. The union aspect, though -- that is another story. Last I heard (yesterday; I haven't checked the news today yet) is that the UAW has refused to give up anything on behalf of the workers. That doesn't mean they won't, though, eventually. (And I'm not saying we should continue this discussion and concentrate on the UAW. It's just something to keep an eye on.) SignatureMaria C. > I realize that some cars are better, bigger, smaller, faster, safer, > cooler, more affordable, etc., than others. I've turned down some > American cars and found others (American ones) that I prefer. So, I'm > curious as to what you find/found preferable in the cars you buy/drive. > What is the deal-closer? (Straight question, Evan. I'm not trying to > give you a hard time.) I've got one. When we were shopping for a new car a few years ago, I wanted to be able to see out the damn windows. We ended up with a Toyota (a Scion xB) because, among other reasons, it had the best-placed pilars and an unobtrusive dashboard. SignatureSML Sara Lorimer filted: >I've got one. When we were shopping for a new car a few years ago, I >wanted to be able to see out the damn windows. We ended up with a Toyota >(a Scion xB) because, among other reasons, it had the best-placed pilars >and an unobtrusive dashboard. Ah, the Scion!...the model that makes the Honda Element look sleek....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Sara Lorimer filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Ah, the Scion!...the model that makes the Honda Element look sleek....r The latest model of the Scion seems a bit sleeker... Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > Sara Lorimer filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ah, the Scion!...the model that makes the Honda Element look sleek....r Do not insult my toaster. SignatureSML >Sara Lorimer filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Ah, the Scion!...the model that makes the Honda Element look sleek....r Never having heard of it I did an image search. Looks like they've got wind resistance just about licked. What an ugly thing. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >> I realize that some cars are better, bigger, smaller, faster, safer, >> cooler, more affordable, etc., than others. I've turned down some [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Toyota (a Scion xB) because, among other reasons, it had the > best-placed pilars and an unobtrusive dashboard. I see your point and agree with your reasoning. With cars (and with other things), I am very definite about what I want. (ObAUE, sort of: "fussy" is the term often applied to me by others.) Since I am short, the seat controls must allow perfect maneuverability (with regard to seat height, angle, and distance from the pedals) for me to drive comfortably. If it's even the slightest bit "off," then no sale (or lease). Probably the best vehicle (for comfort and versatility) I ever owned was a 7-passenger* Ford Aerostar (minivan). There was space between the two front seats (that is, between the driver's seat and the passenger seat to the driver's right) to set my purse down. With console shifts, I can't do that any more. (Btw, does anyone remember "three-on-the-tree" vs "four-on-the-floor"?) *In those days, I was driving a carful of people to work. Perhaps some of the more expensive vehicles have features I'd like, but price is generally my first question. If I can't affort it, I don't look at all the bells/whistles. Why bother? Trying to think of another ObAUE, and failing, SignatureMaria C. Maria wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:58:23 -0500: > Probably the best vehicle (for comfort and versatility) I ever > owned was a 7-passenger* Ford Aerostar (minivan). There was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > more. (Btw, does anyone remember "three-on-the-tree" vs > "four-on-the-floor"?) > *In those days, I was driving a carful of people to work. > Perhaps some of the more expensive vehicles have features I'd like, > but price is generally my first question. If I can't > affort it, I don't look at all the bells/whistles. Why bother? > Trying to think of another ObAUE, and failing, I would not like to travel long distances in any van, especially as a passenger. The most comfortable car I have ever driven was a 300 series BMW but, even if the initial price seemed possible, extras that were necessary, in my opinion, made the price rise by 30%. It wasn't "Wheels, $1000 each" but close to it. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Maria wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I would not like to travel long distances in any van, especially as a > passenger. "Long distances" weren't usually involved in my case, though I drove it to Tennessee a time or two (not work-related). And a mini-van is not quite the same as a van. It's shorter, front to back. (I've ridden in full-size vans, and don't particularly like them. I've never driven one, though.) > ...The most comfortable car I have ever driven was a 300 > series BMW but, even if the initial price seemed possible, extras > that were necessary, in my opinion, made the price rise by 30%. It > wasn't "Wheels, $1000 each" but close to it. Wheels are sort of necessary. I wouldn't call them "extras," of course. :-) SignatureMaria C. Maria wrote on Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:31:21 -0500: >> Maria wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> I would not like to travel long distances in any van, >> especially as a passenger. > "Long distances" weren't usually involved in my case, though I > drove it to Tennessee a time or two (not work-related). > And a mini-van is not quite the same as a van. It's shorter, > front to back. (I've ridden in full-size vans, and don't > particularly like them. I've never driven one, though.) >> ...The most comfortable car I have ever driven was a 300 >> series BMW but, even if the initial price seemed possible, >> extras that were necessary, in my opinion, made the price >> rise by 30%. It wasn't "Wheels, $1000 each" but close to it. > Wheels are sort of necessary. I wouldn't call them "extras," > of course. :-) My impression is that if BMW could, it would. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not Maria C. filted: >> Maria wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>> more. (Btw, does anyone remember "three-on-the-tree" vs >>> "four-on-the-floor"?) Remember "four on the floor and a fifth under the seat"?... Just hang the purse on the turn-signal stalk...so you're signalling a perpetual left turn; you won't be alone.... >> ...The most comfortable car I have ever driven was a 300 >> series BMW but, even if the initial price seemed possible, extras [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Wheels are sort of necessary. I wouldn't call them "extras," of course. >:-) You can apparently rent them, and tires too, in some neighborhoods...I drove past just such a shop yesterday....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > I would not like to travel long distances in any van, especially as a > passenger. The most comfortable car I have ever driven was a 300 > series BMW but, even if the initial price seemed possible, extras > that were necessary, in my opinion, made the price rise by 30%. It > wasn't "Wheels, $1000 each" but close to it. I have one of those -- a 3 Series BMW. Yes, it is comfortable to drive. http://www.geocities.com/opus731/99bmw.jpg SignatureSkitt (AmE) > http://www.geocities.com/opus731/99bmw.jpg My goodness you keep a neat garage. With a rug on the floor even. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> http://www.geocities.com/opus731/99bmw.jpg > > My goodness you keep a neat garage. With a rug on the floor even. There was no place else to put that dilapidated thing. It was too good to throw away, though. Also, the other car that is usually on the right was out at the time. SignatureSkitt (AmE) Maria C. asked: > (Btw, does anyone remember "three-on-the-tree" vs "four-on-the-floor"?) Sure. SignatureSkitt (AmE) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/cars.html >>> I realize that some cars are better, bigger, smaller, faster, safer, >>> cooler, more affordable, etc., than others. I've turned down some [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >front seats (that is, between the driver's seat and the passenger seat >to the driver's right) to set my purse down. Those are pretty much the reasons my first wife and I liked our 1970 VW Bus. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>> I realize that some cars are better, bigger, smaller, faster, safer, >>>> cooler, more affordable, etc., than others. I've turned down some [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Those are pretty much the reasons my first wife and I liked our >1970 VW Bus. We had a 1970 VW Camper. Most practical vehicle we ever owned in some respects. The kids were little, and the camper had a built-in table and built-in beds. The kids could color at the table or nap on the beds. No seat belts, but that was before we understood that only totally irresponsible parents didn't buckle-up their kids. No child was ever injured in that vehicle, though. There were only two problems with the camper: lack of heat and acceleration. The heater was absolutely worthless, and we lived in the Chicago area when we bought it. We drove it to Florida when we moved down here, and it was a thrill ride. It had no acceleration so driving through the hilly country was an experience. We'd creep up the hills with a long line of impatient motorists behind us, and fly down the hills hoping one some truck didn't run up over us. We arrived in Florida during a hurricane, and I could hardly keep the camper on the road. That high, boxy, shape caught the wind and tried to blow me off the road. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>> I realize that some cars are better, bigger, smaller, faster, >>>>> safer, cooler, more affordable, etc., than others. I've turned [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > I could hardly keep the camper on the road. That high, boxy, shape > caught the wind and tried to blow me off the road. When was that era? I can recall a number of reports of VW busses being blown off the road. They were rather high, and had a narrow wheelbase. Thing that struck me most was the vile colors that seemed so popular. Melon? Lime? I never knew the names, but they had these fruity colors. Avocado? Caramel? And then the two-tone jobs. >>>>>> I realize that some cars are better, bigger, smaller, faster, >>>>>> safer, cooler, more affordable, etc., than others. I've turned [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >Melon? Lime? I never knew the names, but they had these fruity colors. >Avocado? Caramel? And then the two-tone jobs. We moved to Florida in 1973. Here's a picture of the vehicle on the beach that year: http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/1973-020.jpg As far as I remember, the campers (I think they were called a Kombi elsepond) were all beige. The busses came in different colors. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>When was that era? I can recall a number of reports of VW busses >>being [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > As far as I remember, the campers (I think they were called a Kombi > elsepond) were all beige. The busses came in different colors. Really cool! I mean, that is you with the tiny innertube, isn't it? Are all those kids yours? >>>When was that era? I can recall a number of reports of VW busses >>>being [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Really cool! I mean, that is you with the tiny innertube, isn't it? >Are all those kids yours? I participated in the process of bringing into the world those two children in the foreground. My wife, also in the foreground, had a role. I emphatically deny any involvement in the process that resulted in the child wearing the innertube. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> We moved to Florida in 1973. Here's a picture of the vehicle on the >>> beach that year: >>> http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/1973-020.jpg > I participated in the process of bringing into the world those two > children in the foreground. My wife, also in the foreground, had a > role. I emphatically deny any involvement in the process that > resulted in the child wearing the innertube. With all that snow on the ground I would think those folks would be freezing. SignaturePurl Gurl -- About the only chance you have at an education is to read what I write. [beach bugs] > I emphatically deny any involvement in the process that > resulted in the child wearing the innertube. Excellent illustration of the occasional but important difference between the use of the accusative and the use of the genitive in this construction. <snip> >When was that era? I can recall a number of reports of VW busses being >blown off the road. They were rather high, and had a narrow wheelbase. >Thing that struck me most was the vile colors that seemed so popular. >Melon? Lime? I never knew the names, but they had these fruity colors. >Avocado? Caramel? And then the two-tone jobs. Didn't they have a tendency to flip over on tight turns? After my experiences with the Bug I owned, no one hates VWs more than I do, which may be fogging my memory of that model. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > experiences with the Bug I owned, no one hates VWs more than I do, > which may be fogging my memory of that model. Trucks passing them could blow them off the road. They were not stable; or, perhaps better said, the drivers didn't understand the aerodyamics of the narrow vertical profile. Just the way a lot of kids can't control big SUVs. You can't make those things safe in the hands of wild-eyed kids. So you persuade everyone else that _their_ cars have to be heavy, and wide, and air-cushioned all around, and armored--all so sane and sober drivers can withstand collisions with the kids. >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >be heavy, and wide, and air-cushioned all around, and armored--all so >sane and sober drivers can withstand collisions with the kids. VWs were great for slip-streaming big trucks, though. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >be heavy, and wide, and air-cushioned all around, and armored--all so >sane and sober drivers can withstand collisions with the kids. Motorcyclists who stay alive learn defensive tactics on the road, early on. As a bike rider, I don't think I'd feel in danger driving a tinny electric car of the future. Being a passenger in one is another story. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > Just the way a lot of kids can't > control big SUVs. You can't make those things safe in the hands of > wild-eyed kids. So you persuade everyone else that _their_ cars have to > be heavy, and wide, and air-cushioned all around, and armored--all so > sane and sober drivers can withstand collisions with the kids. I hold no brief for big SUVs, having driven mostly small cars since 1958, but the government in its wisdom has mandated large family vehicles by passing laws requiring child safety seats. I moved up from a VW Beetle to a (then considered to be a) mid-sized Plymouth when the third child arrived. Today, a family with three small children has to have a vehicle with three rows of seats in order to fit in all the child seats. Or am I mistaken? Can three child seats fit in the back of a Honda Accord? A Civic? They sure wouldn't fit in the back of SWMBO's Subaru or even the 1995 Volvo 854T sedan I used to have. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > I hold no brief for big SUVs, having driven mostly small cars since > 1958, but the government in its wisdom has mandated large family [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > have a vehicle with three rows of seats in order to fit in all the > child seats. Or am I mistaken? You are not. > Can three child seats fit in the back > of a Honda Accord? A Civic? They sure wouldn't fit in the back of > SWMBO's Subaru or even the 1995 Volvo 854T sedan I used to have. Three car seats (which is what we call them, although I see the problem with it) wouldn't fit in the back of my Scion xB, which is a compact. SignatureSML >Today, a family with three small children has to have a vehicle with >three rows of seats in order to fit in all the child seats. Or am I >mistaken? Perhaps about the relative frequency of such families. Most families of my acquaintance have no more than two children, and with the typical intra-child gap seen today, few even among those with three children have three infants or toddlers. One couple of my acquaintance bought a (used) Honday Odyssey after their second child was born (although they have no intention of a third) in order to make long road-trips with both kids and the dog comfortably. >Can three child seats fit in the back of a Honda Accord? One infant, one toddler, and one booster seat, sure. Of course, the Accord is a large car now. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness John Varela filted: >I hold no brief for big SUVs, having driven mostly small cars since >1958, but the government in its wisdom has mandated large family [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >of a Honda Accord? A Civic? They sure wouldn't fit in the back of >SWMBO's Subaru or even the 1995 Volvo 854T sedan I used to have. I once got a queen-size futon in the back seat of a Civic...it was a snug fit; when I opened the door at my destination, it sprang open like the lid of a jack-in-the-box....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > John Varela filted: >> I hold no brief for big SUVs, having driven mostly small cars since >> 1958, but the government in its wisdom has mandated large family [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> of a Honda Accord? A Civic? They sure wouldn't fit in the back of >> SWMBO's Subaru or even the 1995 Volvo 854T sedan I used to have. > I once got a queen-size futon in the back seat of a Civic...it was a snug fit; > when I opened the door at my destination, it sprang open like the lid of a > jack-in-the-box. A spring chicken sandwich? SignaturePurl Gurl -- About the only chance you have at an education is to read what I write. > I once got a queen-size futon in the back seat of a Civic...it was a snug fit; > when I opened the door at my destination, it sprang open like the lid of a > jack-in-the-box. I have a home movie of me stuffing a 7-foot Christmas tree into a VW Beetle. The top poked out of the passenger window. Our apartment was only 100 yards from the tree sales lot so wife and toddler walked home while I drove the car with the tree. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >experiences with the Bug I owned, no one hates VWs more than I do, >which may be fogging my memory of that model. The earlier VWs had swing axles, which could tuck under with high lateral g-forces. This was the same problem Corvairs had that led to Ralph Nader's book "Unsafe At Any Speed". Certain Army Jeeps also had this configuration, and when I was in the army 1960-63 the Army had a special little manual on the precautions to take when driving one. VW solved the problem by the 1970 models. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > VW solved the problem by the 1970 models. I had a '62 Corvair. It felt a bit wild on outside turns, (Wolf Creek Pass, way up on the Great Divide) but I always wished GM had kept on and re-engineered the problems. I had a blow-ut at 70+ mph, and could have flipped, I suppose, but I didn't. Just spun around and stalled out when rolling backward. But I felt like I was on a bucking bronc, when the tire first blew. It did kind of sail when I was passing trucks, and I felt as though I would get sucked under the semis, but I think that was when there was a wind coming from the truck side. >>> <snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >would get sucked under the semis, but I think that was when there was a >wind coming from the truck side. Was it Ralph Nader who wrote "Unsafe at Any Speed", a book about the Corvair as I recall? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> <snip> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Was it Ralph Nader who wrote "Unsafe at Any Speed", a book about the > Corvair as I recall? Yes. And corporate giants trembled and backed away from air-cooled, rear-engine configuration. Not to mention small practical cars. Of course, US culture had it that all cars had to be sports-family-intercity-luxury models, so all cars had to be cross-overs. I don't know how they could have modified the Corvair, but it, at least had a wide wheel-base and a low profile. (Mine had a great name: Monza Spyder.) I never read Nader's book, but there was a series: The Waste Makers, by Vance Packard who achieved notable financial and critical success with his two previous books, The Hidden Persuaders and The Status Seekers. It, like Nader's work, and John Gardner's Common Cause, took some very sharp looks at the corporate ethos. (I read both your comments, Chuck.) SignaturePat Durkin durkinpa at msn.com Wisconsin (snipped) >>>>>> When was that era? I can recall a number of reports of VW busses >>>>>> being blown off the road.... >>>>> Didn't they have a tendency to flip over on tight turns?... >>>> The earlier VWs had swing axles, which could tuck under with high >>>> lateral g-forces. This was the same problem Corvairs.... >>> I had a '62 Corvair. It felt a bit wild on outside turns.... >> Was it Ralph Nader who wrote "Unsafe at Any Speed".... > Yes. And corporate giants trembled and backed away from air-cooled, > rear-engine configuration.... I once owned a 1967 Ford Vomit with a throw up hood and bad gas in the rear. SignaturePurl Gurl -- About the only chance you have at an education is to read what I write. > There were only two problems with the camper: lack of heat and > acceleration. The heater was absolutely worthless, and we lived in > the Chicago area when we bought it. <snip> > That high, boxy, shape > caught the wind and tried to blow me off the road. I was going to remark that there was a third problem with VW buses... SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>> I realize that some cars are better, bigger, smaller, faster, safer, >>> cooler, more affordable, etc., than others. I've turned down some [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Trying to think of another ObAUE, and failing, ObAUE: What carry-out did you find helped keep your car cleaner? or. . .Didn't the new-car smell spoil your appetite for take-out lobster? >> Probably the best vehicle (for comfort and versatility) I ever owned >> was a 7-passenger* Ford Aerostar (minivan). There was space between [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > ObAUE: What carry-out did you find helped keep your car cleaner? Is there a carry-out thatg does that? (If so, I never encountered it, alas.) > or. . .Didn't the new-car smell spoil your appetite for take-out > lobster? No, but then I have no appetite for lobster. I tried it once, and that was enough. My usual consume-in-the-car treat is coffee. SignatureMaria C. >> ObAUE: What carry-out did you find helped keep your car cleaner? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > No, but then I have no appetite for lobster. I tried it once, and that > was enough. My usual consume-in-the-car treat is coffee. I dislike eating or drinking anything in my car. It just serves to make a mess. There were the days when I drank a lot of beer in the car, but those days are long gone. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > I've got one. When we were shopping for a new car a few years ago, I > wanted to be able to see out the damn windows. We ended up with a > Toyota (a Scion xB) because, among other reasons, it had the > best-placed pilars and an unobtrusive dashboard. Uh, "pilars"? Maybe "pillars"? I didn't even notice that until I'd sent my reply of short time ago. It's not a word I have to spell very often, and I think I used to call that particular part something else. Can't remember what, though. SignatureMaria C. >> I've got one. When we were shopping for a new car a few years ago, I >> wanted to be able to see out the damn windows. We ended up with a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > often, and I think I used to call that particular part something > else. Can't remember what, though. No, not "pillars", but "Pilars". Sara's talking about the Mexican illegal immigrants they supply to keep the car clean. You don't want them in the wrong place, creating a blind spot. SignatureMike. >>> I've got one. When we were shopping for a new car a few years ago, I >>> wanted to be able to see out the damn windows. We ended up with a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > illegal immigrants they supply to keep the car clean. You don't want > them in the wrong place, creating a blind spot. GMTA. I actually thought about "Pilar." Something to do with Hemingway. SignatureMaria C. >>> I've got one. When we were shopping for a new car a few years ago, I >>> wanted to be able to see out the damn windows. We ended up with a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >illegal immigrants they supply to keep the car clean. You don't want >them in the wrong place, creating a blind spot. Pilar played an important role in Hemingway's life and in at least one of his novels: http://www.pbs.org/hemingwayadventure/cuba.html SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > > I've got one. When we were shopping for a new car a few years ago, I > > wanted to be able to see out the damn windows. We ended up with a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and I think I used to call that particular part something else. Can't > remember what, though. "Pillars" is better, isn't it?. And I'd started blankly at the computer for an embarassingly long time trying to remember what the damn things were called... SignatureSML >> > I've got one. When we were shopping for a new car a few years ago, >> > I [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > for an embarassingly long time trying to remember what the damn things > were called... At least you remembered. SignatureMaria C. >>> > I've got one. When we were shopping for a new car a few years ago, >>> > I [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > At least you remembered. Oh, the wisdom of Arabia. > Consumers these days trust (or don't trust) the brand, without > worrying about where it's made. And many of the brands they trust > aren't American. It's getting to the stage where notions of American (or other nationality) brands are becoming inapplicable in many areas. Many of the companies are multinational (or extra-national?), and the products have components that are made all over the world. What nationality is the Chrysler-Benz-Mitsubishi conglomerate, for example? SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >I disagree. Lower pricing gave the foreign manufactureres an edge good >enough to discourage production in US factories. Flatly, the US paid its >employees more. In the end, many of the US manufacturers lost out, and >not because of poor quality. Hm. If you asked owners of foreign cars about that what do you suppose they'd answer? >I'm not saying the products you mention are bad; but neither were the US >brands. I'm just saying that the price is what matters, and that's where >the US is at a disadvantage. So. You figure all those Mercedes owners bought them for the low price compared to Cadillacs and Lincolns? Fact is, foreign cars aren't all that cehap anyomre compared to Detroit iron. >> Yeah, there's a labor cost component when it comes to things like >> cheap toys and clothing, but in most people's minds, I suspect that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >not very long. And getting repairs made is not always an option. It's >almost better to buy new. (Perhaps frequently.) If it had been left up to Ma Bell there wouldn't be cell phones and wireless phones today. >Maria C., who doesn't really like any phone we've bought since the days >of getting one from Ma Bell. Now, there was a /sturdy/ piece of >equipment. Cord and all. But tehy were sturdy. Both models that were available. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> I disagree. Lower pricing gave the foreign manufactureres an edge >> good enough to discourage production in US factories. Flatly, the US [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Hm. If you asked owners of foreign cars about that what do you > suppose they'd answer? Never having asked, I have no idea. My guess is that they'd get all defensive /and/ offensive -- and say that their choices are the best and that American products are the worst, and that prices have nothing to do with it. And then I'd get all defensive and offensive. Nothing would be settled. Why bother? (Discussions online are more enlightening and probably safer.) >> I'm not saying the products you mention are bad; but neither were >> the US brands. I'm just saying that the price is what matters, and >> that's where the US is at a disadvantage. > > So. You figure all those Mercedes owners bought them for the low > price compared to Cadillacs and Lincolns? I don't know. > Fact is, foreign cars aren't all that cehap anyomre compared to > Detroit iron. I'm not surprised about the pricing. Once the foot is in the door... ("Detroit iron"? That sounds somewhat disparaging. Do you ever say "German iron" or "Japanese iron"?) >>> Yeah, there's a labor cost component when it comes to things like >>> cheap toys and clothing, but in most people's minds, I suspect that [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Cord and all. But tehy were sturdy. Both models that were > available. The products served us well for years. Now we want more options, and the newer phones seem to be made, primarily if not totally, elsewhere. And they're cheap. What more can we ask for? Even if they quit working early on, or even if they're hard for old hands and old eyes to deal with, they're cheap. Knowing I'm in the minority, SignatureMaria C. >>> I disagree. Lower pricing gave the foreign manufactureres an edge >>> good enough to discourage production in US factories. Flatly, the US [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >settled. Why bother? (Discussions online are more enlightening and >probably safer.) Well, then why not take a look at the auto reviews in Consumer Reports magazine? Better yet, look at the frequency of repair charts in the annual automobile issue or the year-end buyer's guide. They have some pretty objective reporting, and American cars don't compare well. Actually, a few years back the Chevy model made at the NUMMI plant in the San Francisco Bay Area generally got good reviews, but the model was virtually identical to the Toyota also produced at the plant. And it cost less than the Toyota. >>> I'm not saying the products you mention are bad; but neither were >>> the US brands. I'm just saying that the price is what matters, and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >("Detroit iron"? That sounds somewhat disparaging. Do you ever say >"German iron" or "Japanese iron"?) [...] >>> And speaking of [tele]phones, etc., I'm not thrilled with any of >>> them. Too much built in, controls often too tiny, and the life-span [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >on, or even if they're hard for old hands and old eyes to deal with, >they're cheap. Works for me. And for most people, who rather like having a phone they can carry around with them, and even call for help from their car, rather than being stuck at home at the length of the cord on the phone. You can still get big phones with big buttons. Take a look at the ads in the AARP magazine. I'll bet your can even find some old Western Electric dial phones if you look around. Maybe on Ebay. >Knowing I'm in the minority, I'm 71 and doing fine with cell phones. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen wrote, in part: > Well, then why not take a look at the auto reviews in Consumer > Reports magazine? Better yet, look at the frequency of repair > charts in the annual automobile issue or the year-end buyer's > guide. Frankly, I don't want to be doing homework. And I'm going to buy American unless something forces me into buying other brands. > [...] And for most people, who rather like having a phone > they can carry around with them, and even call for help from > their car, rather than being stuck at home at the length of the > cord on the phone. There are cordless phones. We have a couple (and others that are not cordless) in our house. I don't like to use the cordless phones, but will when "portability" is needed. We also have cell phones. (See the other reply I sent you earlier.) The thing is, I'm not living in the past. I just like certain features from the past. And if they're not available, I'll get by. > You can still get big phones with big buttons. Take a look at the > ads in the AARP magazine. I'll bet your can even find some old > Western Electric dial phones if you look around. Maybe on Ebay. Thanks for your (um, shall we say "gratuitous"?) advice. [...] > I'm 71 and doing fine with cell phones. So is my husband. He's 72. And so am I, at a relatively young 65. SignatureMaria C. >Hatunen wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Frankly, I don't want to be doing homework. And I'm going to buy >American unless something forces me into buying other brands. And that pretty much says it all for you. I try to avoid arguing about religion. But you really shouldn't be making claims about the quality of American cars v. foreign cars if you won't bother to check it out. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> Hatunen wrote, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > And that pretty much says it all for you. Probably not, but if that's what you think, then that's what you think. > ....I try to avoid arguing about religion. Good for you. Arguing about religion seldom makes for good relationships. > But you really shouldn't be making claims about the quality of > American cars v. foreign cars if you won't bother to check it > out. What claims am I making when I express my opinions and preferences? That's pretty much all I've been doing. And now, I'm done on this topic... unless I change my mind. SignatureMaria C. >>> Hatunen wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >And now, I'm done on this topic... unless I change my mind. I usually prefer to know something of what I'm talking about even when I express and opion. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >I usually prefer to know something of what I'm talking about even >when I express and opion. Speaking of which, the newspaper today broke down that $73 an hour figure. According to the article, the wage factor (hourly rate plus overtime plus vacation benefits) is $40. Add to that about $15 an hour for benefits (health insurance, pension contributions, etc.). Then add the fixed costs of payments for retirees at about $30 by dividing all payments by the total number of hours of the current work force. This last cost includes workers who retired or accrued benefits before the Japanese automakers had a foothold in the market. Critics will say that this equals about $73 an hour, but the workers are cashing checks based on $40 an hour. That will decline as overtime is curtailed. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>I usually prefer to know something of what I'm talking about even >>when I express and opion. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Critics will say that this equals about $73 an hour, but the workers >are cashing checks based on $40 an hour. That's why I have phrased it as wages and benefits. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>I usually prefer to know something of what I'm talking about even >>>when I express and opion. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >That's why I have phrased it as wages and benefits. I find it difficult to consider the retiree payments as benefits to the current workers. Retirement income will eventually benefit an employee, but something paid to other people is not really a benefit to the worker. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>I usually prefer to know something of what I'm talking about even >>>>when I express and opion. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >employee, but something paid to other people is not really a benefit >to the worker. The investment into the retirement account is considered a benefit even though an employee does not receive it for a long time. Similarly, the employer's contribution to Social Security is considered a benefit. And remember, right now we're looking at the cost to the employer, not what the employee enjoys in the here and now. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>>I usually prefer to know something of what I'm talking about even >>>>>when I express and opion. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >the cost to the employer, not what the employee enjoys in the >here and now. That's not the point here. Pension costs paid to *retired* workers (retireee payments) is the second $30 figure. The pension contributions of *present* workers is in the first $30 figure. That $73 figure is what the automaker pays out in wages and benefits to both present and past workers. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>I usually prefer to know something of what I'm talking about even >>>>>>when I express and opion. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >$73 figure is what the automaker pays out in wages and benefits to >both present and past workers. No point in arguing with me. Ask an accountant. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>The investment into the retirement account is considered a >>benefit even though an employee does not receive it for a long [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > $73 figure is what the automaker pays out in wages and benefits to > both present and past workers. I don't understand the "$30 figure" as a cost to the employer, if it is a payment to retirees. That is, most of that should have been paid in by the employer to a fund in previous years. It is (or should be) in a "lockbox"(1) as a cost from prior years. If it isn't in a fund that is inaccessible to current management, then management and union have deluded the worker and are lying to them yet today, as they continue to "promise to pay".(2) (1) heard a lady at the nutrition site* just yesterday talk about her retirement "lockbox". (2) unless this is that "legacy" some are talking about. . .paying now-retired workers a catch-up to account for lower retirement packages in the past. *No one here talks about this, so I just thought I would mention another kind of "eating out". Some is great, some is horrid. The main idea is to get isolated seniors out of the house to meet people. Of course, it seems half the people go to "help" and to "volunteer". Never can have enough of those. >>>The investment into the retirement account is considered a >>>benefit even though an employee does not receive it for a long [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >a payment to retirees. That is, most of that should have been paid in >by the employer to a fund in previous years. I can't address that. I don't know how the automakers handled the retirement funds. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>> The investment into the retirement account is considered a >>>> benefit even though an employee does not receive it for a long [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I can't address that. I don't know how the automakers handled the > retirement funds. Just heard a report from someone named Millard, who is with the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation (used be called Trust). He was discussion what would happen if they (it's a government backed organization) had to absorb the GM (or maybe all three companies') auto workers pension fund. It would hurt a bit, but they wouldn't have to pay all the pensions at once. . .they aren't a "demand" financial corporation. They currently have $63 billions in assets, and pay out $2 billions a year, but in absorbing new pensions, they would gain some assets and hope the gov. and the companies and unions would not promise increased pensions during a buyout or bankruptcy. I don't know what the total liablility of the Trust is, but it can grow to meet some of the future needs. (crossed fingers?) http://www.pbgc.gov/media/news-archive/news-releases/2008/pr08-45.html (from September). The Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 ("ERISA") was not mentioned today, but it was one of the reasons (unless I have it backward) that PBGC was formed. Companies welched on the ERISA requirements. I think that happened when steel went down the drain. Eventually >>I usually prefer to know something of what I'm talking about even >>when I express and opion. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >are cashing checks based on $40 an hour. That will decline as >overtime is curtailed. I've been trying to figure this out, too. Yesteday, I posted what I found in the NY Times (for "Ford" vs. "Japanese in the US"), and it was comparable. What is still unspoken is that the "$30 for retirees" is supposed to have been paid for by investments before those people retired. - If the terms of payout were indexed like annuities, and if the companies had invested when they were supposed to, there would be less problem. - There would still be a problem with the "guaranteed health care", since health costs continue to increase faster than inflation. So that $30 for retirees is *should not* be a part of the equation if there had been different planning in the start. But it is. Unions won promises for certain retiree-wage levels. This works out okay so long as the stock market investments grow -- unless, of course, corporate raiders strip out the excess value, or loot the funds entirely. (This week, the Chicago Tribune. Two decades ago, the steel industry. It makes me think fondly of the Chinese standard I once read about, of capital punishment for "economic crimes", even while defining them after the fact.) For the auto industry, I expect that the stock market woes mean that whatever investments existed that looked like "enough" 6 months ago, they need reinforcement today. Since the company has promises to the union workers, I expect that they *do* have to contribute today. SignatureRich Ulrich >>>I usually prefer to know something of what I'm talking about even >>>when I express and opion. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >So that $30 for retirees is *should not* be a part of the equation >if there had been different planning in the start. But it is. If I understand it correctly, if the automakers lay off half the workforce, the cost to them for "wages and benefits" per employee will double. If the retirees continue to collect retirement benefits, the amount spent on this will be divided by the number of hours the present workers are working. If, on the other hand, they want to reduce the figure they can double the workforce and present a figure that makes the Japanese look bad by comparison. The actual flow of money has little to do with the reasoning of the critics. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>I usually prefer to know something of what I'm talking about even >>when I express and opion. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > force. This last cost includes workers who retired or accrued > benefits before the Japanese automakers had a foothold in the market. Hold it a second. How can they both include "pension contributions" for current workers and take the "payments for retirees" out of the current expenses? That's calling something an expense when they put it into the bank and again when they take it out. Or is that $30 over and above what's in the bank based on the money put aside when the retirees were working? > Critics will say that this equals about $73 an hour, but the workers > are cashing checks based on $40 an hour. That will decline as > overtime is curtailed. If that $30 is indeed coming out of current sales rather than out of retirement accounts, then the workers are cashing checks (including contract-mandated retirement benefits) that are likely based in part on sales made when the workers are retired and drawing benefits. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When you're ready to break a rule, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you _know_ that you're ready; you Palo Alto, CA 94304 |don't need anyone else to tell |you. (If you're not that certain, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |then you're _not_ ready.) (650)857-7572 | Tom Phoenix http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>I usually prefer to know something of what I'm talking about even >>>when I express and opion. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >current expenses? That's calling something an expense when they put >it into the bank and again when they take it out. Hey! Don't blame me. I'm just reporting what was reported. >Or is that $30 over and above what's in the bank based on the money >put aside when the retirees were working? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >contract-mandated retirement benefits) that are likely based in part >on sales made when the workers are retired and drawing benefits. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >Hold it a second. How can they both include "pension contributions" >for current workers and take the "payments for retirees" out of the >current expenses? Because they underfunded the pension plan when those retirees were still working, so now they have to make additional payments to the pension fund to make up the difference between the fund's income and its current liabilities. (There have been numerous changes in laws, rules, life expectancy, and accounting procedures since the automakers started down this road; it is not surprising that contributions that they made in the 1970s and 1980s would no longer be sufficient to pay benefits to retirees who where never expected to live to 75.) A look at their most recent SEC report on form 10-K will probably give an overview of how they are accounting for their legacy pension liabilities. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness Hatunen wrote, in part: > Maria C. wrote, in part: >>Hatunen wrote, in part: >>> But you really shouldn't be making claims about the quality of >>> American cars v. foreign cars if you won't bother to check it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I usually prefer to know something of what I'm talking about even > when I express and opion. It is so tempting to say something I shouldn't. SignatureMaria C. >Hatunen wrote, in part: >> Maria C. wrote, in part: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >It is so tempting to say something I shouldn't. That never stopped me, Maria. Life is short, so go for it. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > You can still get big phones with big buttons. Take a look at the > ads in the AARP magazine. I'll bet your can even find some old > Western Electric dial phones if you look around. Maybe on Ebay. We've got three of them. One of them is in actual service. What am I offered? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> You can still get big phones with big buttons. Take a look at the >> ads in the AARP magazine. I'll bet your can even find some old [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >What am I offered? I do a lot of theater, and my wife does stage managing and properties. We've had a hard time finding suitable Western Electric or General Telephone desk sets for plays set before the 1980s. At least for cheap or to-borrow desk sets. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * <snip> >And speaking of [tele]phones, etc., I'm not thrilled with any of them. >Too much built in, controls often too tiny, and the life-span is often >not very long. And getting repairs made is not always an option. It's >almost better to buy new. (Perhaps frequently.) As good as it is, I consider my Nokia to be a throwaway. That said, of the three or four Nokias I've owned, I've always turned in a fully functional phone when I upgraded. Perhaps you've been looking at shoddy brands, Maria, for my phone is a wonder of engineering perfection. OK, it is not quite perfect, but it will be difficult to improve. Nevertheless, I trust that Nokia will do it. For that reason, I look forward to owning the next generation. >Maria C., who doesn't really like any phone we've bought since the days >of getting one from Ma Bell. Now, there was a /sturdy/ piece of >equipment. With mobiles everywhere, the old girl has had her day. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Maria C. wrote, in part: > Maria C., who doesn't really like any phone we've bought since the > days of getting one from Ma Bell. Now, there was a /sturdy/ piece of > equipment. Note: I was referring to "house" phones, not to mobile/cell phones. MC >Maria C. wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Note: I was referring to "house" phones, not to mobile/cell phones. Ane you must mean wired house phones. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Ane you must mean wired house phones. I prefer "plug-ins." I don't even know if phones are "wired in" at all any more. With the sturdy, larger phones I'm thinking of, you could balance the hearing-speaking part (handset?) between your ear and your shoulder. There was even an attachment available that aided hands-free conversations. That's something I haven't seen lately. Nowadays, you need earphones (or tiny "earplugs" that fall out out too easily) and one-size/brand doesn't fit all (does it?). Bri and I each have cell phones. They are wonderful and very handy. But at home, I'd prefer something like the bigger phones of old. Oh, yes, we use computers, too. We're not as much buried in the past as you may think. SignatureMaria C. >>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I prefer "plug-ins." I don't even know if phones are "wired in" at all >any more. Phones with wires, whether pluggged in or not. >With the sturdy, larger phones I'm thinking of, you could balance the >hearing-speaking part (handset?) between your ear and your shoulder. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Oh, yes, we use computers, too. No kidding? >We're not as much buried in the past as >you may think. You couldn't be. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > lately. Nowadays, you need earphones (or tiny "earplugs" that fall > out out too easily) and one-size/brand doesn't fit all (does it?). The phones I use are (an earlier model of) http://tinyurl.com/5q4795 <URL:http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/ Phones-Fax/Telephones/5-8-GHz-Phones/model.KX-TG4323B_11002_ 7000000000000005702> One of the features I really appreciate about these phones is that they have a speakerphone that actually works, so I can walk around with the phone in my hand at a comfortable angle or, if I need both hands, simply leave it on the table. (I remotely attend a lot of meetings and talks that way.) And the outgoing quality is good enough that people don't seem to suspect that they're "on speakerphone" unless somebody else in the room joins in the conversation). I find it so much more comfortable that I've just gotten into the habit of answering the phone that way. (The other feature that I like on the phone is that they have an actual mute button--something that seemed to be hard to find when I was shopping for phones. As I said, I attend a lot of meetings and talks remotely, and I like being sure that my background noise isn't going to intrude into the conference room or that Susan can ask me a quick question without my having to miss anything.) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The law of supply and demand tells us 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that when the price of something is Palo Alto, CA 94304 |artificially set below market level, |there will soon be none of that thing kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |left--as you may have noticed the (650)857-7572 |last time you tried to buy something |for nothing. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke >>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I prefer "plug-ins." I don't even know if phones are "wired in" at all > any more. The base station for your cordless phones is definitely connected with copper. > With the sturdy, larger phones I'm thinking of, you could balance the > hearing-speaking part (handset?) between your ear and your shoulder. > There was even an attachment available that aided hands-free > conversations. That's something I haven't seen lately. Nowadays, you > need earphones (or tiny "earplugs" that fall out out too easily) and > one-size/brand doesn't fit all (does it?). Or you can put the phone on loudspeaker. Putting the phone on loudspeaker is not a substitute for one of those attachments on the handset of a desk phone. > Bri and I each have cell phones. They are wonderful and very handy. But > at home, I'd prefer something like the bigger phones of old. We have one cell phone that lives in the dash compartment of my car and is used once in a blue moon. I have never understood this need to be connected at all times. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > We have one cell phone that lives in the dash compartment of my car > and is used once in a blue moon. I have never understood this need > to be connected at all times. Today's Dilbert on my calendar has: Dogbert: I'm starting Dogbert's Selfish Cell Phone Company. It has no phone number. You can call people and bother them when they're busy, but they can't do the same to you. <rest snipped> Good idea! SignatureSkitt (AmE) >We have one cell phone that lives in the dash compartment of my car and >is used once in a blue moon. I have never understood this need to be >connected at all times. Neither do I. The phone I carry for emergencies is never switched on, and actually belongs to my wife, who gets a good deal on mobiles from a company she's been with for years. One of our friends who has her whole family down with illness called and left me a voicemail message asking us to keep clear for a week. She thought she'd better check and phoned my wife too, on her phone. This led me to activate my voicemail, which contained messages from the previous five years. All of them but one were for my wife, and some were quite important at the time they were sent, but the world didn't stop because we hadn't received them. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>We have one cell phone that lives in the dash compartment of my car and >>is used once in a blue moon. I have never understood this need to be [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > time they were sent, but the world didn't stop because we hadn't > received them. I once was on a court martial for failing to relay an order. Got off with an admonishment before it ever got to the summary of evidence bit. >>We have one cell phone that lives in the dash compartment of my car and >>is used once in a blue moon. I have never understood this need to be [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >time they were sent, but the world didn't stop because we hadn't >received them. I hope they're all Nokias, the best phones in the world. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>We have one cell phone that lives in the dash compartment of my car and >>>is used once in a blue moon. I have never understood this need to be [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >I hope they're all Nokias, the best phones in the world. Mine's a black Nokia slide action. Hers is a pink something. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>We have one cell phone that lives in the dash compartment of my car and >>>>is used once in a blue moon. I have never understood this need to be [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Mine's a black Nokia slide action. Hers is a pink something. Do you like it? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>We have one cell phone that lives in the dash compartment of my car and >>>>>is used once in a blue moon. I have never understood this need to be [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Do you like it? What, mine? It's not bad, the buttons are large enough for my fingers not to get tangled, but the selection of ring tones, including those that can be downloaded, is only suitable for children. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>>>We have one cell phone that lives in the dash compartment of my car and >>>>>>is used once in a blue moon. I have never understood this need to be [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >not to get tangled, but the selection of ring tones, including those >that can be downloaded, is only suitable for children. What I find most appealing about my E61i is its large screen, excellent for emails, good when shooting a picture or making a very short film and useable on some web sites and its large-key, ASDF keyboard. I rarely use its calculator, spreadsheet, games or downloading features. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>Do you like it? > >What, mine? It's not bad, the buttons are large enough for my fingers >not to get tangled, but the selection of ring tones, including those >that can be downloaded, is only suitable for children. I set my ringtone to play "Jinglebells". I never get it confused with someone else's phone. Especially in, say, June. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >>>Do you like it? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I set my ringtone to play "Jinglebells". I never get it confused >with someone else's phone. Especially in, say, June. I've got something from "The Marriage of Figaro" on mine...it's tinny and annoying, but it's the closest thing they had to "loud enough to hear".... What I'd *like* to get is "Paralyzed", by the Legendary Stardust Cowboy....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >I hope they're all Nokias, the best phones in the world. I recently lost my phone so bought a new one. I took it back after a week because I expect a phone to stay charged longer than 4 days if it's not being used. It's the second time I've replaced a Nokia with a different make and the second time I've ended up returning the other make for a Nokia. I love Nokia and won't be flirting with other makes again. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>> R H Draney wrote: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >particular moment in history when they have had many years to do so, >yet have failed miserably? There is a very good book by David Halberstam called "The Reckoning" which describes that attitudes in the Japanese and American auto industries through the history of the automobile. The book ends about 1980, but even by then it is clear what the problems are in the American auto industry and where it appears tyo be inevitably heading if it doesn't change its ways; there is no problem extrapolating to today's plight, which would bring a resounding "told ya so!" from Halberstam were he still alive. I worked as a produciton machinery desigh engineer for General Motors division in the 1950s (I played a very small role in bringing the Corvair to market, among other things) and there was corporate hubris even then. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Dave Hatunen: > There is a very good book by David Halberstam called "The > Reckoning" which describes that attitudes in the Japanese and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > no problem extrapolating to today's plight, which would bring a > resounding "told ya so!" from Halberstam were he still alive. Although his fatal accident occurred while he was in a Toyota. SignatureMark Brader | "A colorful quilt reflecting the dispersed development msb@vex.net | of the nation. A sentence fragment." Toronto | --Eric Walker >Dave Hatunen: >> There is a very good book by David Halberstam called "The [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Although his fatal accident occurred while he was in a Toyota. Was it really? Well, at least the book is about Nissan and not Toyota. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * <snip> >There is a very good book by David Halberstam called "The >Reckoning" which describes that attitudes in the Japanese and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >no problem extrapolating to today's plight, which would bring a >resounding "told ya so!" from Halberstam were he still alive. What suggestion or suggestions that he had for the industry stood out in your mind, Dave? >I worked as a produciton machinery desigh engineer for General >Motors division in the 1950s (I played a very small role in >bringing the Corvair to market, among other things) and there was >corporate hubris even then. Was I right in thinking the auto unions may slow down, or block altogether, needed changes, once GM finds them, if they involve layoffs or better training? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > Was I right in thinking the auto unions may slow down, or block > altogether, needed changes, once GM finds them, if they involve > layoffs or better training? An article in today's Washington Post points out that there is also a problem with dealers. GM, for example, has contracts with dealers to provide them with Hummers. If GM stops manufacturing Hummers, they will be in breach of contract with all the Hummer dealers. It's rumored to have cost GM a billion (10^9) dollars to recompense dealers when they abandoned the Oldsmobile marque. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Was I right in thinking the auto unions may slow down, or block >> altogether, needed changes, once GM finds them, if they involve [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >rumored to have cost GM a billion (10^9) dollars to recompense dealers >when they abandoned the Oldsmobile marque. Another case for breaking up the Big Three and selling the pieces to Toyota, Mercedes or Volvo, let us say, sans legal agreements that went before. Of course, current GM, Ford and Chrysler owners wouldn't be happy, but these are desperate times. If the companies go out of business, they are no better off. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> Was I right in thinking the auto unions may slow down, or block >>> altogether, needed changes, once GM finds them, if they involve [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > happy, but these are desperate times. If the companies go out of > business, they are no better off. Chapter 11 would accomplish the same thing --- relieve the companies of their obligations to dealers --- without the disruption of destroying the companies and selling off the parts pieccemeal. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>>> Was I right in thinking the auto unions may slow down, or block >>>> altogether, needed changes, once GM finds them, if they involve [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >their obligations to dealers --- without the disruption of destroying >the companies and selling off the parts pieccemeal. The logic of Chapter 11 is what "The Economist" has been arguing for, but both Bush and Obama seem opposed to it, probably because few people are going to want to buy a car from a bankrupt company. It is the stigma of that word "bankrupt" B and O may fear. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >What suggestion or suggestions that he had for the industry stood out >in your mind, Dave? It was largely a matter of attitude and complacency on the part of the American auto industry. The book is replet with examples. >>>I worked as a produciton machinery desigh engineer for General >>Motors division in the 1950s (I played a very small role in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >altogether, needed changes, once GM finds them, if they involve >layoffs or better training? The unions are/were adamantly opposed to any changes that would result in lower wages, increased production without raising wages or requiring new hiring, layoffs, or any form of merit pay. They argued strenusously for what was called in the 1950s the "guaranteed annual wage", whereby laid off workers would get paid most of their working wages. There are currently non-working autoworkers who are being paid according to this principle. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Maria Conlon and R.H. Draney write: >>> "Inbuilt," apparently, is chiefly BrE. In the US, "built-in" is used >>> (with few exceptions, as far as I know). [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> Maria C., for whom "inbuilt" prompts the thought of "ingrown," as in >>> toenails. >> Do you have "infill", the term for putting houses or other structures >> into the empty spaces missed by earlier construction?...r > I've never heard "infill" used. (But the term reminds me of "landfill.") I've encountered "infill housing", but I forget where; "built-in" is more normal to me than "inbuilt"; and I've never encountered either "pop a squat" or "cop a squat" before this thread. *Now* what do I put in the subject line? SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "You can write a small letter to Grandma msb@vex.net | in the filename." -- Forbes Burkowski > Maria Conlon and R.H. Draney write: >>>> "Inbuilt," apparently, is chiefly BrE. In the US, "built-in" is [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > "pop a squat" or "cop a squat" before this thread. *Now* what do I > put in the subject line? "Inbuilt built-ins cop/pop a squat" SignatureMaria C. >"Inbuilt built-ins cop/pop a squat" That has a rhythm. Do we have the beginnings of a nonsense song? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Maria C. wrote: > >> "Inbuilt built-ins cop/pop a squat" > > That has a rhythm. Do we have the beginnings of a nonsense song? Inbuilt built-ins Cop/pop a squat all day I'm half wiltin' Won'drin' what Ron will say... To the tune of "Daisy Daisy" Ron = Draney, our Music Man SignatureMaria C. Maria C. filted: >> Maria C. wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >To the tune of "Daisy Daisy" >Ron = Draney, our Music Man Is "Daisy Daisy" in fact the official title of this song?...let's check Lissauer's: _Daisy Bell_ (or, _Bicycle Built for Two_), w/m Harry Dacre, 1892. Written in the U.S. by the English composer, the song had its first success in London performed by Kate Lawrence. Tony Pastor introduced it in the U.S. at his Music Hall. Now *there's* a surprise...the "preferred" title is the one used by David Seville and the Chipmunks...I don't recall if HAL-9000 mentioned the title....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Maria C. filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Seville and the Chipmunks...I don't recall if HAL-9000 mentioned the > title....r Say, speaking of "Daisy Bell". Can anyone come up with the words for another song? I am thinking that the lyrics (chorus) go something like: Daisy Belle, Daisy Belle, you're my (nonsense word of 5-7 syllables ending with a resounding "TUM"*), Daisy Belle. It may be some other words than "Daisy Belle", but I am in full STS mode. Stuck on lyrics, stuck on similar or borrowed melody. And I think the entire song consisted of constant repetition of 4 lines. Shucks. Now I can't recall the OTHER melody that comes to mind. *fiddleuspicheeUMPUMP" > Daisy Belle, Daisy Belle, you're my (nonsense word of 5-7 syllables > ending with a resounding "TUM"*), Daisy Belle. Katy Bell? Katy Bell is in the dell, How I love her none can tell. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Daisy Belle, Daisy Belle, you're my (nonsense word of 5-7 syllables >> ending with a resounding "TUM"*), Daisy Belle. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Katy Bell is in the dell, > How I love her none can tell. Melody? Thanks for the offering, John. I did find a very popular song "Katie Belle Blue" by Townes Van Zandt (of which I have ever heard neither before), but that seems to be a song from a dying mother to her daughter. And your couplet doesn't ring a bell, either. I will probably have to chalk this up to thoughts lost to my youth. Like the old song heard on the radio in the late '40s: The Cowboy's Aeroplane Ride. (It's a comparison with a bucking bronc.) >>> Daisy Belle, Daisy Belle, you're my (nonsense word of 5-7 syllables >>> ending with a resounding "TUM"*), Daisy Belle. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Melody? Eureka! I found Rose O'Day. That Daisy Belle _was_ blocking the lyrics. Turns out Gracie Fields, Flanagan and Allen (for the Brits) and Claude Thornhill, Freddy Martin and Kate Smith all put out versions of the song, composed by successful songwriter Charles Tobias, and, I guess, released in '42. It was also called the "filla-da-gusha" song. Gracie (no video. . .just a still and a song, half-way through on the track, after something called Pernambuco) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kosg-0kAlX0 Flanagan and Allen (sorry, couldn't get a Tiny url) http://mobile.mystrands.com/track/1517178;jsessionid=FBFBEF849A930A109DB938F5BF0 D1256.mob1 http://tinyurl.com/5arh7l Kate Smith. http://www.rhapsody.com/claude-thornhill/autumn-nocturne-volume-ii We didn't have a radio during the war, so maybe Dad sang it when he came home from Europe. He was in England for nearly 2 years before D-Day. And I only knew the chorus. (Excuse my indulgence in nostalgia, but sometimes I have to prove that I remembered something.) >>> Daisy Belle, Daisy Belle, you're my (nonsense word of 5-7 syllables >>> ending with a resounding "TUM"*), Daisy Belle. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the radio in the late '40s: > The Cowboy's Aeroplane Ride. (It's a comparison with a bucking bronc.) My suggestion was from the wrong century. "Katy Bell" was written by Stephen Foster. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. John Varela filted: >> Daisy Belle, Daisy Belle, you're my (nonsense word of 5-7 syllables >> ending with a resounding "TUM"*), Daisy Belle. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Katy Bell is in the dell, >How I love her none can tell. But this I know, and know full well: I do not love thee, Doctor Fell. (Burma Shave) ....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > I've encountered "infill housing", but I forget where; "built-in" is > more normal to me than "inbuilt"; and I've never encountered either > "pop a squat" or "cop a squat" before this thread. *Now* what do I > put in the subject line? I have no advice to offer. I rather think there's a difference between "built-in" and "inbuilt", but COD9 doesn't support me. There's a built-in wardrobe in my room, but I don't really think I'd call it "inbuilt". "Inbuilt" might come to my mind as a change from "innate" for abstractions or personal qualities: "He has an inbuilt optimism". But I am in doubt about it, and it may well be an idiosyncrasy. OED has "in-built" from 1856, in <R. A. VAUGHAN Mystics (1860) I. 271 A man of true self-abandonment must be un-built from the creature, in-built with Christ.> I take that to mean something like "absorbed into the Christ-nature", though even so I'm not quite sure of the author's meaning. For "built-in" in the abstract "innate" sense, OED has, from 1946, <KOESTLER in New Writing & Daylight 82 Archetypes are..inherited, built-in patterns of instinct-conflicts.> SignatureMike. Mike Lyle: > "Inbuilt" might come to my mind as a change from "innate" for > abstractions or personal qualities: "He has an inbuilt optimism". > But I am in doubt about it, and it may well be an idiosyncrasy. ... I don't think so -- I had the same thought, actually. Including the doubt. It might be a British usage or something. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "We don't use clubs; they weren't invented here. msb@vex.net | We use rocks." -- David Keldsen >JoAnne Schmitz wrote, in part: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Maria C., for whom "inbuilt" prompts the thought of "ingrown," as in >toenails. I never saw or heard "inbuilt" until you mentioned it. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > JoAnne Schmitz wrote, in part: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > "Inbuilt," apparently, is chiefly BrE. In the US, "built-in" is used > (with few exceptions, as far as I know). Are you sure? JoAnne indicates in her message header that she's an AmE speaker. > How about in Oz, New Z., S. Afr., Scot., Ire., Can., and any other > English-speaking areas represented in AUE? > > Maria C., for whom "inbuilt" prompts the thought of "ingrown," as in > toenails. For AusE, both words are used. I think they are used slightly differently. I would have used inbuilt as JoAnne did -- it's a bit like 'innate' or 'inherent' for qualities. But it is usually 'built-in' for physical things such as cupboards. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >> JoAnne Schmitz wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Are you sure? JoAnne indicates in her message header that she's an AmE > speaker. I'm never sure about much of anything, but the dictionaries I consulted about "inbuilt" said that "built-in" is the American version. SignatureMaria C. >>> JoAnne Schmitz wrote, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I'm never sure about much of anything, but the dictionaries I consulted >about "inbuilt" said that "built-in" is the American version. I'm pretty sure that BrE uses both. It depends partly on the circumstances, but it's often a toss-up between the two. Personally, I might say "I have an inbuilt (= 'innate') dislike of bedrooms with built-in wardrobes". I certainly wouldn't say the reverse. To me, I think that 'inbuilt' tends to imply that something is an integral part of something at the time of manufacture. In the case of a bedroom, the basic structure bedroom would have to have been largely completed before the wardrobes were 'built-in'. SignatureIan > Maria C. writes >>>> JoAnne Schmitz wrote, in part: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > basic structure bedroom would have to have been largely completed > before the wardrobes were 'built-in'. In the US, I'd be surprised to hear "inbuilt" -- "built in" (v.) and "built-in" (n.) would seem to be the common usages. However, "inbuilt" may be used in parts of the country I haven't visited. Regarding "wardrobe": In the US (as far as I know), a "wardrobe" is "a tall piece of furniture that provides storage space for clothes; has a door and rails or hooks for hanging clothes." But I'd say that most bedrooms here have "a closet": a small room (more likely a recess) where clothes are hung. This one is not unusual: http://www.pointclickhome.com/files/web/u15/Closet.jpg A "walk-in closet," off or in a bedroom, is larger, of course, than a plain old "closet." Btw, I looked up "clothes rod" (what I call the horizontal pole/rod that one hangs clothes hangers on. The term doesn't seem to be in the dictionary. Google has mentions of it, though. When we moved to our current house, the closets had shelves with a metal attachement underneath on which one would hang the hangers -- but only backwards. I didn't like that, but lived with it for about 20 years. Then, I had new shelves and wooden rods installed. I still haven't painted the shelves. (These things take time.) SignatureMaria C. >When we moved to our current house, the closets had shelves with a metal >attachement underneath on which one would hang the hangers -- but only >backwards. I didn't like that, but lived with it for about 20 years. >Then, I had new shelves and wooden rods installed. I still haven't >painted the shelves. (These things take time.) Did the attachment pull forward, so that the clothes hanging from it could easily be reached from the front of the closet? We had an Edardian double wardrobe (now passed down to a nephew) with such a device. The wardrobe was very wide, but slightly too shallow for coathangers at right-angles to the door. We did, like you, replace the device on one side of the wardrobe with a wooden rail, but the clothes had to hang from it diagonally. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>When we moved to our current house, the closets had shelves with a metal >>attachement underneath on which one would hang the hangers -- but only [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >the device on one side of the wardrobe with a wooden rail, but the >clothes had to hang from it diagonally. The previous owners of our house solved that problem in one room by building in a set of doors, from floor to ceiling, slightly more than a coat-hanger's distance from a wall, and running right across the room. It holds all of the clothes that need hangers for both of us. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >> When we moved to our current house, the closets had shelves with a >> metal attachement underneath on which one would hang the hangers -- [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Did the attachment pull forward, so that the clothes hanging from it > could easily be reached from the front of the closet? [...] No; the "attachment" was just nailed/screwed to the bottom of the shelf, from one end to the other. I made a simple (very primitive) drawing to show it from the front, rear, and side. When I tried to publish it on my Web site, I kept getting a message that I wasn't connected to the Internet. I think the real problem is a change in the password since last time I updated the site. I'll try again tomorrow. (I most certainly /was/ connected to the Internet. It's always something.) SignatureMaria C. >>> When we moved to our current house, the closets had shelves with a >>> metal attachement underneath on which one would hang the hangers -- [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > last time I updated the site. I'll try again tomorrow. (I most certainly > /was/ connected to the Internet. It's always something.) I confess I have trouble imagining how a one-way-only hanger hanger would work. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>> When we moved to our current house, the closets had shelves with a >>>> metal attachement underneath on which one would hang the hangers -- [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I confess I have trouble imagining how a one-way-only hanger hanger > would work. I would guess that there was a sort of rail, shaped somewhat like a backwards J, innit? SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>>> When we moved to our current house, the closets had shelves with a >>>>> metal attachement underneath on which one would hang the hangers [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I would guess that there was a sort of rail, shaped somewhat like a > backwards J, innit? YACS, and "J" is the operative feature. Here's the drawing (if one can call it that) which I was finally able to put online just moments ago. http://www.familyhomefront.net/closet >> I would guess that there was a sort of rail, shaped somewhat like a >> backwards J, innit? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >http://www.familyhomefront.net/closet Ah, I see now. (Not the same as the device I was talking about.) SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>>>> When we moved to our current house, the closets had shelves with a >>>>>> metal attachement underneath on which one would hang the hangers [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> I would guess that there was a sort of rail, shaped somewhat like a >> backwards J, innit? Got it! Clearly a lack of imagination on my part. > YACS, and "J" is the operative feature. Here's the drawing (if one can > call it that) which I was finally able to put online just moments ago. > > http://www.familyhomefront.net/closet Very clear drawing; thank you. What a pain to use that shelf, but I guess the slide-in/slide-out feature would be some compensation. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>>>> When we moved to our current house, the closets had shelves >>>>>>> with a metal attachement underneath on which one would hang the [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Very clear drawing; thank you. What a pain to use that shelf, but I > guess the slide-in/slide-out feature would be some compensation. Um, there is no slide-in/slide-out feature. (My drawing wasn't all that clear, then.) I'll keep trying to find a better drawing/picture online. SignatureMaria C. >>>>>>>> When we moved to our current house, the closets had shelves >>>>>>>> with a metal attachement underneath on which one would hang the [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Um, there is no slide-in/slide-out feature. (My drawing wasn't all that > clear, then.) I'll keep trying to find a better drawing/picture online. No, I just got confused. Someone had mentioned a sliding feature that wasn't shown on your drawing. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>>>>>> When we moved to our current house, the closets had shelves >>>>>>>>> with a metal attachement underneath on which one would hang the [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >No, I just got confused. Someone had mentioned a sliding feature that >wasn't shown on your drawing. That was me, but I was envisaging a slide-out rail at right angles to the door, and this wasn't one of those. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>>>>>>>> When we moved to our current house, the closets had shelves >>>>>>>>>> with a metal attachement underneath on which one would hang the [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > That was me, but I was envisaging a slide-out rail at right angles to > the door, and this wasn't one of those. It's all clear to me now. Thank you. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>>> When we moved to our current house, the closets had shelves >>>>>> with a metal attachement underneath on which one would hang [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > moments ago. > http://www.familyhomefront.net/closet Definitely an ingrown -- something. SignatureFrank ess Maria C. filted: >> I would guess that there was a sort of rail, shaped somewhat like a >> backwards J, innit? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >http://www.familyhomefront.net/closet I've seen these in motel rooms...still a damn sight better than the ones with slot into which only their own proprietary hangers fit (no hooks, just balls on the end)....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Maria C. filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > on > the end)....r One of the marks of a good hotel is that they provide real hangers, not those ball-in-the-slot things. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Maria C. filted: >>>> I would guess that there was a sort of rail, shaped somewhat like a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > One of the marks of a good hotel is that they provide real hangers, not > those ball-in-the-slot things. And proper glasses in the bathroom, without any disposable covers. SignatureDavid >>> Maria C. filted: >>>>> I would guess that there was a sort of rail, shaped somewhat like a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > And proper glasses in the bathroom, without any disposable covers. On that score, I'd rather have disposable plastic cups in individual wrappers. I don't trust the cleanliness of glasses that have been washed by the maid who just cleaned the toilet. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>> One of the marks of a good hotel is that they provide real hangers, >>> not those ball-in-the-slot things. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > wrappers. I don't trust the cleanliness of glasses that have been > washed by the maid who just cleaned the toilet. I prefer disposable plastic cups, too. My problem with "proper glasses" in hotel bathrooms is their breakability. It's one thing to drop or knock over a plastic cup full of water, and another to do the same with a glass. (I've done both.) Still clumsy after all these years, SignatureMaria C. Maria C. filted: >I prefer disposable plastic cups, too. My problem with "proper glasses" >in hotel bathrooms is their breakability. It's one thing to drop or >knock over a plastic cup full of water, and another to do the same with >a glass. (I've done both.) > >Still clumsy after all these years, I don't trust the plastic cups with my immersion heater...even the glass ones make me a little nervous.... And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that comes out of the spigot....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" [...] > I don't trust the plastic cups with my immersion heater...even the > glass ones make me a little nervous.... > > And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that comes out of > the spigot....r If I didn't mishear, or, having hitheard, don't misremember, Einstein told Alistair Cooke that you get a better shave with cold water because it makes your hair stand on end. That Einstein wasn't just a pretty face, you know. SignatureMike. Mike Lyle filted: >If I didn't mishear, or, having hitheard, don't misremember, Einstein >told Alistair Cooke that you get a better shave with cold water because >it makes your hair stand on end. That Einstein wasn't just a pretty >face, you know. Not sure I'd choose him as a role model for grooming, though....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Mike Lyle filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Not sure I'd choose him as a role model for grooming, though....r E-MC: where E is Einstein, M is mutilated, C is chin. > And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that comes out of the > spigot....r My complaint about shaving in hotels is that many of them put such enormous single taps over small bowels that it's pretty well impossible to transfer water from the bowl to your face with your hands. Presumably I'm the last man in civilisation who doesn't shower every morning and shave while he's at it. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk Experimental version; http://canalplan.eu >> And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that comes out of the >> spigot....r [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Presumably I'm the last man in civilisation who doesn't shower every morning > and shave while he's at it. I don't know if Boston counts as civilisation, but my husband shaves and brushes his teeth before he showers. It seems to me that brushing your teeth before you shower is downright strange, but there you are. Fran >>> And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that comes out >>> of the spigot....r [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and brushes his teeth before he showers. It seems to me that brushing > your teeth before you shower is downright strange, but there you are. I brush my teeth before I shower. Running the warm water in the bathroom sink -- I leave the tap running while I brush, btw -- makes the water in the shower come out warm from the start, as opposed to c-c-cold. Plus, it gives my mouth a cleaner feel sooner than it would if brushing followed showering. In the hot summer months, warm water in the shower is not so important. But: I still want warm water for brushing my teeth no matter what the temperature is. SignatureMaria C. >>>> And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that comes out >>>> of the spigot....r [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > But: I still want warm water for brushing my teeth no matter what the > temperature is. Yuck. I have to brush my teeth in cold water, the colder the better. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> I brush my teeth before I shower. Running the warm water in the >> bathroom sink -- I leave the tap running while I brush, btw -- makes [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Yuck. I have to brush my teeth in cold water, the colder the better. We've touched on this before. English children are instructed firmly never to drink from the hot tap, because of the header tanks we have in our lofts which are subject to invasion by insects, spiders and the odd pigeon. Our French hot water system is sealed and pressurised by the mains, so it's presumably perfectly safe, but I could never bring myself to clean my teeth with hot water. Yuck is the word. SignatureDavid > We've touched on this before. English children are instructed firmly > never to drink from the hot tap, because of the header tanks we have in > our lofts which are subject to invasion by insects, spiders and the odd > pigeon. Our French hot water system is sealed and pressurised by the > mains, so it's presumably perfectly safe, but I could never bring myself > to clean my teeth with hot water. Yuck is the word. A recent article in Science News said you should never drink water from the hot water tap because (a) hot water leaches more lead out of the solder and (b) if the hot water comes from a tank, and the tank is not at about 140F/120C or more, then that water has been held at an ideal temperature for the growth of bacteria. http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/37933/title/Science_%2B_the_P ublic__The_Case_for_Very_Hot_Water or http://preview.tinyurl.com/6elpj2 SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > A recent article in Science News said you should never drink water from > the hot water tap because ... (b) if the hot water comes from a tank, > and the tank is not at about 140F/120C or more, then ... I doubt there are many household water heaters that reach a temperature of 120°C! SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Ah, determinism (likewise, forgetfulness) reigns." msb@vex.net | --Steve Summit >> A recent article in Science News said you should never drink water from >> the hot water tap because ... (b) if the hot water comes from a tank, >> and the tank is not at about 140F/120C or more, then ... > > I doubt there are many household water heaters that reach a temperature > of 120°C! Make that 60C. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> We've touched on this before. English children are instructed firmly >> never to drink from the hot tap, because of the header tanks we have in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > at about 140F/120C or more, then that water has been held at an ideal > temperature for the growth of bacteria. 120C? Might tend to explode. Actually, I think our hot tank is set to 60C which is at the top end of the suggestion. SignatureDavid >>> We've touched on this before. English children are instructed firmly >>> never to drink from the hot tap, because of the header tanks we have in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >120C? Might tend to explode. Actually, I think our hot tank is set to >60C which is at the top end of the suggestion. Wouldn't that be a perfect temperature for bacteria growth, as John said? When I was aboard, I always kept my boat's hot water tank, which had an accurate regulator, at about 150F and had no trouble. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> We've touched on this before. English children are instructed firmly >>>> never to drink from the hot tap, because of the header tanks we have in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > said? When I was aboard, I always kept my boat's hot water tank, which > had an accurate regulator, at about 150F and had no trouble. 60C is 140F which John's quoted source says is hot enough. SignatureDavid >>>>> We've touched on this before. English children are instructed firmly >>>>> never to drink from the hot tap, because of the header tanks we have in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >60C is 140F which John's quoted source says is hot enough. Right. I was thinking 60F, so I had the wrong units when I bitched about your tank temperature. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >(b) if the hot water comes from a tank, and the tank is not at about >140F/120C or more, then that water has been held at an ideal >temperature for the growth of bacteria. But the contents of the tank will under ordinary circumstances contain a sufficient amount of residual chloramine to discourage said growth. Unless you have a well, of course. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > Maria C. wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yuck. I have to brush my teeth in cold water, the colder the better. You may not be alone in this. I do the warm-water brush because my teeth are sort of sensitive to cold. (Not all the time, but often.) SignatureMaria C. >> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >You may not be alone in this. I do the warm-water brush because my teeth >are sort of sensitive to cold. (Not all the time, but often.) Have you ever tried Sensodyne toothpaste, a product made for this problem? I find it works well. This is their U.S. web site: http://us.sensodyne.com/ SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >http://us.sensodyne.com/ Seconded. SignatureIan >>>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Seconded. It works for me. I prefer Colgate Total, but when the sensitivity attacks I use Sensodyne for three months and the problem goes away. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > http://us.sensodyne.com/ I think I bought a tube once. It's expensive. Warm water with my regular toothpaste works okay, so why spend the extra? Thrifty as always, Maria > >>> Maria C. wrote, in part: > >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I think I bought a tube once. It's expensive. Warm water with my regular > toothpaste works okay, so why spend the extra? Because it helps to protect your teeth longer-term against such things as cold ice cream, hot coffee and so on. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > Because it helps to protect your teeth longer-term against such things > as cold ice cream, hot coffee and so on. Hot coffee? Oh oh. Pain with heat is bad. It's symptomatic of a cracked tooth. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > Maria C. says: >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Because it helps to protect your teeth longer-term against such things > as cold ice cream, hot coffee and so on. Cold-water brushing bothers me some, cold ice cream* doesn't, unless my teeth are the cause of "ice cream headaches" (also known as and Eskimo headache, I think). Hot coffee doesn't hurt my teeth (though it hardly helps to keep them pearly white). *Is "ice cream" ever non-cold? If so, is it still ice cream? SignatureMaria C. >> Maria C. says: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > *Is "ice cream" ever non-cold? If so, is it still ice cream? There's freeze-dried ice cream, for camping (see Goldwater peanut butter thread) and space exploration. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I think I bought a tube once. It's expensive. Warm water with my regular >toothpaste works okay, so why spend the extra? Don't then. I was trying to be helpful. >Thrifty as always, Money is no object when it comes to the relief of pain, is how I look at it. Even if there is a limit for most of us, we're talking about pennies here, not hundreds of dollars. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Don't then. I was trying to be helpful. I know that, and I appreciate it. I just don't want to buy Sensodyne again because it didn't seem to work any better than what I was already using. >> Thrifty as always, > > Money is no object when it comes to the relief of pain, is how I look > at it. Even if there is a limit for most of us, we're talking about > pennies here, not hundreds of dollars. Well, we're talking dollars, not pennies. And I'm simply not going to /spend/ more for a product that doesn't /do/ more than the less-expensive product does. What can I say? I come from a long line of "use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without" people. (Should there be some hyphens there?) When it comes to my kids and grandson, though, I've been known to spend more than I should, and not worry about it. SignatureMaria C. <snip> >What can I say? I come from a long line of "use it up, wear it out, make >it do, or do without" people. (Should there be some hyphens there?) So do I, on my Scandinavian side, but since the Irish side of me dominates my personality, I've always blown money like there's no tomorrow. That works for me. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > I have to brush my teeth in cold water, the colder the better. A dentist pointed out to me that the mouth is a wet place and there is no reason to wet the toothbrush at all. So all of you Greens out there can help save the planet by no longer wetting your toothbrushes. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> I have to brush my teeth in cold water, the colder the better. > > A dentist pointed out to me that the mouth is a wet place and there is > no reason to wet the toothbrush at all. So all of you Greens out there > can help save the planet by no longer wetting your toothbrushes. If the toothbrush is in the bathroom that also has a giant bacterial aerosol, aka as a toilet, then washing the toothbrush is almost mandatory. > If the toothbrush is in the bathroom that also has a giant > bacterial aerosol, aka as a toilet, then washing the toothbrush > is almost mandatory. I always keep the lid down on the toilet. That limits the aerosol as well as arguments with SWMBO. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> If the toothbrush is in the bathroom that also has a giant >> bacterial aerosol, aka as a toilet, then washing the toothbrush >> is almost mandatory. > >I always keep the lid down on the toilet. That limits the aerosol as >well as arguments with SWMBO. Myth Busters did a bit on this. You don't want to know the results. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> If the toothbrush is in the bathroom that also has a giant >>> bacterial aerosol, aka as a toilet, then washing the toothbrush >>> is almost mandatory. >> I always keep the lid down on the toilet. That limits the aerosol as >> well as arguments with SWMBO. > Myth Busters did a bit on this. You don't want to know the results. No surprise boys brush their teeth in toilets. SignaturePurl Gurl -- About the only chance you have at an education is to read what I write. > > If the toothbrush is in the bathroom that also has a giant > > bacterial aerosol, aka as a toilet, then washing the toothbrush > > is almost mandatory. > > I always keep the lid down on the toilet. That limits the aerosol as > well as arguments with SWMBO. We keep the lid down to stop the kitten jumping in or knocking the toilet roll in. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > A dentist pointed out to me that the mouth is a wet place and there is > no reason to wet the toothbrush at all. So all of you Greens out there > can help save the planet by no longer wetting your toothbrushes. I wet the toothbrush to increase adhesion and keep the toothpaste from falling off it on the way to my mouth. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk Experimental version; http://canalplan.eu >> I have to brush my teeth in cold water, the colder the better. > >A dentist pointed out to me that the mouth is a wet place and there is >no reason to wet the toothbrush at all. So all of you Greens out there >can help save the planet by no longer wetting your toothbrushes. I think that dentist is full of beans. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck wrote on Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:39:06 +0000: >>> I have to brush my teeth in cold water, the colder the >>> better. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> you Greens out there can help save the planet by no longer >> wetting your toothbrushes. > I think that dentist is full of beans. Do people wet tooth brushes before using except perhaps for cleanliness? If I have occasion to rinse my electric brush before using, I always shake it until it is fairly dry before putting on the tooth paste. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Do people wet tooth brushes before using except perhaps for cleanliness? I do. I can't bear the feeling of the dry bristles in my mouth. I shudder just to think about it. Fran Fran wrote on Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:48:49 -0500: >> Do people wet tooth brushes before using except perhaps for >> cleanliness? > I do. I can't bear the feeling of the dry bristles in my > mouth. I shudder just to think about it. I have a suspicion that the choice is inherited from childhood but, as for dryness, tooth paste is wet isn't it? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Fran wrote on Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:48:49 -0500: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I have a suspicion that the choice is inherited from childhood but, as > for dryness, tooth paste is wet isn't it? Not really: it's kind of gooey, like peanut butter, which I also can't stand. Fran >> Fran wrote on Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:48:49 -0500: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Not really: it's kind of gooey, like peanut butter, which I also can't > stand. [cross thread alert] Well, you're me, too, then. SignatureLaura, who may also be David and certainly used to be Frank (emulate St. George for email) > [cross thread alert] Be careful, you can ruin your nuts that way. (Or bolts.) SignatureA: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Maybe because some people are too annoyed by top-posting. Q: Why do I not get an answer to my question(s)? (snipped) >> Not really: it's kind of gooey, like peanut butter, which I also can't >> stand. > Well, you're me, too, then. Hmmm... SignaturePurl Gurl -- About the only chance you have at an education is to read what I write. >> Fran wrote on Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:48:49 -0500: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Not really: it's kind of gooey, like peanut butter, which I also can't >stand. I like peanut butter but I wouldn't brush my teeth with it no matter how wet I could get it. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >I like peanut butter but I wouldn't brush my teeth with it no matter >how wet I could get it. "If you don't mind smelling like a peanut for a few days, peanut butter makes a darn fine shaving cream." - Barry Goldwater ....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >darn fine shaving cream." > - Barry Goldwater Barry Goldwater had some very strange ideas. This one is news to me. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>Chuck Riggs filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Barry Goldwater had some very strange ideas. This one is news to me. Right up there with -- if not above -- Regan's ketchup-as-vegetable notion. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson filted: >>>Chuck Riggs filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Right up there with -- if not above -- Regan's ketchup-as-vegetable notion. Barry's quote was, I believe, in the context of a camping trip....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Barry's quote was, I believe, in the context of a camping trip....r There are worse things one can smell like on a camping trip, I suppose. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> Roland Hutchinson filted: [edibles] >>>>> "If you don't mind smelling like a peanut for a few days, >>>>> peanut butter makes a darn fine shaving cream." >>>>> - Barry Goldwater >>>> Barry Goldwater had some very strange ideas. This one is news to >>>> me. >>> Right up there with -- if not above -- Regan's >>> ketchup-as-vegetable notion. >> Barry's quote was, I believe, in the context of a camping trip....r What's really strange is shaving on a camping trip. > There are worse things one can smell like on a camping trip, I > suppose. The bears'll pursue ya. >>>>>> I like peanut butter but I wouldn't brush my teeth with it no matter >>>>>> how wet I could get it. >>>>> "If you don't mind smelling like a peanut for a few days, peanut butter >>>>> makes a darn fine shaving cream." - Barry Goldwater >>>> Barry Goldwater had some very strange ideas. This one is news to me. >>> Right up there with -- if not above -- Regan's ketchup-as-vegetable notion. >> Barry's quote was, I believe, in the context of a camping trip. > There are worse things one can smell like on a camping trip, I suppose. You city slicker boys, I swear. A Babbling Brook brand washing machine, a Campfire brand dryer, no odor problems. http://www.purlgurl.net/aue/camp01.jpg SignaturePurl Gurl -- About the only chance you have at an education is to read what I write. > Fran wrote: >>> Do people wet tooth brushes before using except perhaps for >>> cleanliness? >> I do. I can't bear the feeling of the dry bristles in my >> mouth. I shudder just to think about it. > > I have a suspicion that the choice is inherited from childhood but, as > for dryness, tooth paste is wet isn't it? There is, or used to be, such a thing as powdered tooth paste. One would wet the brush and then sprinkle the powder on it. The kind I remember came in a can (or "tin"). The usual main ingredient in "tooth powder" is sodium bicarbonate (found in baking powder and baking soda.[1] You can brush your teeth with baking soda right out of the box if you want. Arm & Hammer is a popular brand in the US. Here are a couple of sites for "tooth powder": http://www.just4teeth.com/Eco-DenT-TartarGuard-Toothpowder?sc=12&category=42 and http://writebrained.wordpress.com/2008/06/29/how-to-travel-light-eco-dent/ Also: What's the difference between baking powder and baking soda? From: http://chemistry.about.com/cs/foodchemistry/f/blbaking.htm Baking Soda Baking soda is pure sodium bicarbonate. When baking soda is combined with moisture and an acidic ingredient (e.g., yogurt, chocolate, buttermilk, honey), the resulting chemical reaction produces bubbles of carbon dioxide that expand under oven temperatures, causing baked goods to rise. The reaction begins immediately upon mixing the ingredients, so you need to bake recipes which call for baking soda immediately, or else they will fall flat! Baking Powder Baking powder contains sodium bicarbonate, but it includes the acidifying agent already (cream of tartar), and also a drying agent (usually starch). Baking powder is available as single-acting baking powder and as double-acting baking powder. Single-acting powders are activated by moisture, so you must bake recipes which include this product immediately after mixing. Double-acting powders react in two phases and can stand for a while before baking. With double-acting powder, some gas is released at room temperature when the powder is added to dough, but the majority of the gas is released after the temperature of the dough increases in the oven. SignatureMaria C. >> Fran wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > You can brush your teeth with baking soda right out of the box if you > want. Arm & Hammer is a popular brand in the US. When I was young, I used something called "Gibbs Dentifrice" which came in a little tin, and was a solid cake. I would wet my toothbrush and rub it on the cake of stuff - not very hygienic I suppose but what did I know. This is in French but it's the right brand: http://timbreetdent.free.fr/buvard/fr-buvard-gibbs-a.jpg http://i3.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/ba/f2/f053_2.JPG When that was no longer available I tried tooth powder - Eucryl was the brand I think - but didn't like it. I had to use regular toothpaste but I would only use a tiny amount. I use a little more nowadays but I still don't really like it. Fran Fran wrote on Thu, 18 Dec 2008 07:46:51 -0500: >>> Fran wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > toothbrush and rub it on the cake of stuff - not very > hygienic I suppose but what did I know. > This is in French but it's the right brand: > http://timbreetdent.free.fr/buvard/fr-buvard-gibbs-a.jpg > http://i3.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/ba/f2/f053_2.JPG I'd forgotten pink "dentifrice" so I guess I did use to wet tooth brushes in my childhood but I can't remember using anything but toothpaste since I was a teenager. I believe my parents decided that the dentifrice block was unhygenic. Incidentally, was my generic use of the word correct? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Fran wrote on Thu, 18 Dec 2008 07:46:51 -0500: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > dentifrice block was unhygenic. Incidentally, was my generic use of the > word correct? It's certainly familiar on this side of the pond. In my youth we were constantly bombarded from the TV with that fact that the American Dental Association had stated that "Crest has been shown to be an effective decay-preventative dentifrice that can be of significant value when used in a conscientiously applied program of dental hygiene and regular professional care." SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> Fran wrote on Thu, 18 Dec 2008 07:46:51 -0500: >> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >a conscientiously applied program of dental hygiene and regular >professional care." After which many American toothpaste manufactures rushed to incorporate Crest's active ingredient, sodium fluoride, into their brand. Didn't the fluoridation of water supplies soon follow? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> Fran wrote on Thu, 18 Dec 2008 07:46:51 -0500: >>> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > incorporate Crest's active ingredient, sodium fluoride, into their > brand. Oh, yes. And they all earned the same ADA statement, which is still printed on many boxes of toothpaste today (possibly with updated wording; I haven't looked). > Didn't the fluoridation of water supplies soon follow? It was already happening, I think. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>> Fran wrote on Thu, 18 Dec 2008 07:46:51 -0500: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > >It was already happening, I think. Some of my friends, the conservatives, called it a Communist plot. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland [...] >>> Didn't the fluoridation of water supplies soon follow? >> >> It was already happening, I think. > > Some of my friends, the conservatives, called it a Communist plot. While some people /I/ knew called it a capitalist plot. (Irrelevantly, my first wife and I had "It's a Communist plot!" as a catchphrase to cover all forms of horrified rejection, starting with the cat's reaction to being made to swallow pills, moving on to the baby's outrage at being offered fish, then broadening to horror at such events as the alteration of a TV schedule, usw.) SignatureMike. >[...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >offered fish, then broadening to horror at such events as the alteration >of a TV schedule, usw.) We can joke but there was a sizeable percentage of Americans in the McCarthy era of the 1950s who considered Communism with a big C to be a real threat to the future of the country. Vietnam, along with the notion that communism naturally spreads from country to country like a disease, followed. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Maria C. wrote, in part: > There is, or used to be, such a thing as powdered tooth paste. One > would wet the brush and then sprinkle the powder on it. The kind I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You can brush your teeth with baking soda right out of the box if you > want. Arm & Hammer is a popular brand in the US. It all comes back to me now ... Yes, there was tooth powder, and I just wet the brush and touched the bristles to the powder. The powder stuck nicely. I don't know when and where that was -- in Latvia, probably. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > Maria C. wrote, in part: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I don't know when and where that was -- in Latvia, probably. WIWAL in the UK we used Eucryl tooth powder for a while -- which is still available: <http://www.eucryl.co.uk/> SignatureLes (BrE) > > Maria C. wrote, in part: > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > <http://www.eucryl.co.uk/> Dad used to use that, because he smoked (Mum was a dental hygienist and insisted). The rest of us used Euthymol toothpaste. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > Maria C. wrote, in part: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I don't know when and where that was -- in Latvia, probably. During WWII my Dad was a Navy officer at Fifth ad Hill (location), downtown Los Angeles. Among the medics in the induction center were dentists, and among them, one who convinced my Dad that toothpaste and toothpowder were a scam. In spite of the comparative unpleasantness, we used the dentist's hand-mixed-and-bottled blend of sodium bicarbonate and salt (sodium chloride), with a side of Powdered Pumice (my first Spanish: /piedra pomez pulverizada/). This was the time during which one of my third-grade classmates was Dorothy "Warshburn", spelled W-a-s-h-b-u-r-n. SignatureFrank ess [...] > During WWII my Dad was a Navy officer at Fifth ad Hill (location), > downtown Los Angeles. Among the medics in the induction center were [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > bicarbonate and salt (sodium chloride), with a side of Powdered Pumice > (my first Spanish: /piedra pomez pulverizada/). [...] I hesitate to impute ulterior motive to a respected naval dentist , but didn't the pumice abrade, just a trifle? I once mentioned here that a traditional British dentifrice was a mixture of equal quantities of salt and soot. And I remember seeing "Selto dental salt" in a chemist's shop. My ex-father-in-law said Steradent (stuff for cleaning false teeth) was sovereign for cleaning intricate antique china. Does anybody know if that was good advice? SignatureMike. > [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > sovereign for cleaning intricate antique china. Does anybody know if > that was good advice? Hydrated silica is one of the inactive ingredients in my toothpaste. Probably that is the 'paste' bit. >> [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Hydrated silica is one of the inactive ingredients in my >toothpaste. Probably that is the 'paste' bit. It sounds like an abrasive to me, for the polishing of your teeth. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >sovereign for cleaning intricate antique china. Does anybody know if >that was good advice? Steradent is supposed to provide an oxygen bleaching action rather than a chlorine one, I think. I'm not sure how, because the ingredients for one of its stronger forms (Sodium sulfate, Potasslum caroate, Sodium bicarbonate, Citric acid, Sodlium carbonate, slulfamic acid, Sodium lauryl sll;ulfate, Aroma, C1 45430 [spelling as from a website]) don't seem to provide oxygen. It's recommended that you don't leave metal parts in it for more than half an hour. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I hesitate to impute ulterior motive to a respected naval dentist , > but didn't the pumice abrade, just a trifle? Surely must have; I can't believe we'd have used it with every brushing. Possibly the motive for a separate can, rather than inclusion in the mix. The very small can was in the medicine cabinet for our entire time in that house, four years, as I remember. I'll bet some contemporary dentifrices contained something similar. I've recently learned that modern car polishes use "Diminishing Abrasives™ cut quickly, then reduce to a polishing rouge, while Buffered Abrasive™ action lubricates the finish to prevent scratching." http://meguiarsdirect.com/detail/MEG+M0216 I'll be disappointed if it turns out my toothpaste makers don't have equally-advanced products. SignatureFrank ess >> [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > I'll be disappointed if it turns out my toothpaste makers don't have > equally-advanced products. Isn't toothpaste a home remedy for superficial scratches in automobile finishes? I'd guess it's as likely as not the car polish formulators got the idea from the toothpaste formulators (if they are not in fact the same people). SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> [...] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >the idea from the toothpaste formulators (if they are not in fact the same >people). Yes. I have found toothpaste to be an effective polish if the scratch isn't deep. Automotive rubbing compound made for the job is better, of course. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck wrote on Sat, 20 Dec 2008 09:53:44 +0000: >>>> [...] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> polish formulators got the idea from the toothpaste >> formulators (if they are not in fact the same people). > Yes. I have found toothpaste to be an effective polish if the > scratch isn't deep. Automotive rubbing compound made for the > job is better, of course. Toothpaste can be useful in default of proper polishing materials but jeweler's rouge is available in various grades of fineness and is not expensive. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Chuck wrote on Sat, 20 Dec 2008 09:53:44 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >jeweler's rouge is available in various grades of fineness and is not >expensive. I believe it is similar to the final paste telescope mirror makers use before a mirror is sent off to be silvered. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > There is, or used to be, such a thing as powdered tooth paste. One would > wet the brush and then sprinkle the powder on it. The kind I remember > came in a can (or "tin"). The usual main ingredient in "tooth powder" is > sodium bicarbonate (found in baking powder and baking soda.[1] Before fluoride there was ammoniated tooth powder. Brands included Ammurol, Ammident, and Colgate. On dentist's recommendation I used all of them for years until one by one they disappeared from the drugstore shelves. My technique for using tooth powder was to pour some into my palm and then scoop with the wet toothbrush. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > I do. I can't bear the feeling of the dry bristles in my mouth. I > shudder just to think about it. I'm the opposite. A moist toothbrush... urgh. SignatureSML >> I do. I can't bear the feeling of the dry bristles in my mouth. I >> shudder just to think about it. > >I'm the opposite. A moist toothbrush... urgh. Amazing. I can't imagine why liberally wetting the bristles before the paste is applied, with more water being applied as the brushing proceeds, isn't the method everyone uses. Think about what a dentist does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >Amazing. I can't imagine why liberally wetting the bristles before the >paste is applied, with more water being applied as the brushing >proceeds, isn't the method everyone uses. Think about what a dentist >does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. They also have you flat on your back with a suction tube jammed down your throat...somehow I don't think the average home tooth-brusher is ready for that....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >throat...somehow I don't think the average home tooth-brusher is ready for >that....r How often do you brush your teeth while lying on your back, under which circumstances the risk of choking on your saliva might be high? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >I'm the opposite. A moist toothbrush... urgh. > > Amazing. I can't imagine why liberally wetting the bristles before the > paste is applied, with more water being applied as the brushing > proceeds, isn't the method everyone uses. Think about what a dentist > does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. I asked my dentist if there was a reason to get the dentist wet before brushing, and she said no. SignatureSML >> >I'm the opposite. A moist toothbrush... urgh. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I asked my dentist if there was a reason to get the dentist wet before >brushing, and she said no. I prefer dry dentists, myself. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >I asked my dentist if there was a reason to get the dentist wet before > >brushing, and she said no. > > I prefer dry dentists, myself. Whoops. SignatureSML > Think about what a dentist > does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. I've never had a dentist or hygienist put water in my mouth. The closest is to hand me a little cup of water to rinse and spit. If there is any serious work going on then the dentist has a suction thingy stuck in my mouth to remove, not add, moisture. When I was a child the dentist had me rinse with some flavored stuff. I liked the taste so I swallowed instead of spitting. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Think about what a dentist >> does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. > > I've never had a dentist or hygienist put water in my mouth. Really? When high speed drills were first introduced, a great deal of water was sprayed about at the same time, although subsequent technological developments seem to have reduced that. I remember feeling as if I was drowning in the spray at one point, and having to swallow frequently, even with the suction thingy. The > closest is to hand me a little cup of water to rinse and spit. If > there is any serious work going on then the dentist has a suction > thingy stuck in my mouth to remove, not add, moisture. > > When I was a child the dentist had me rinse with some flavored stuff. > I liked the taste so I swallowed instead of spitting. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> Think about what a dentist >>> does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >as if I was drowning in the spray at one point, and having to swallow >frequently, even with the suction thingy. I strongly suspect that water is used to cool the drilling bit, in the same way that oil is used to cool a bit drilling into metal. Without a cooling fluid the bit (and the material being drilled into) will heat up. If a metal bit gets too hot it will lose its temper (toughness) and wear rapidly thereby losing its cutting ability. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> Think about what a dentist >>>> does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > heat up. If a metal bit gets too hot it will lose its temper (toughness) and > wear rapidly thereby losing its cutting ability. I seem to remember years ago sitting in a velvet lined dentists chair where the drill was powered by a foot pedal device. > I seem to remember years ago sitting in a velvet lined dentists chair > where the drill was powered by a foot pedal device. Oh, yes -- with a big black wheel and a belt. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > >> I seem to remember years ago sitting in a velvet lined dentists chair >> where the drill was powered by a foot pedal device. > > Oh, yes -- with a big black wheel and a belt. My father was a serious model builder at one time; he had a dentist's drill in his workshop for making tiny holes such as portholes in a model battle cruiser. The drill was there from my earliest memory and I'm sure he bought it second hand so it probably dated from 1920 or earlier. It didn't have a rubber belt, it had two strings that ran from a pulley on the motor over pulleys at the bending points of the arm and eventually to the drill chuck. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> >>> I seem to remember years ago sitting in a velvet lined dentists chair [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >from a pulley on the motor over pulleys at the bending points of the >arm and eventually to the drill chuck. Called a Jordan-Day drill. Can't find a picture of one on the web, but I've seen them. Those "strings" were cords like a thick, round, shoelace. They were still used in labs when I was in the medical field, and the cords were frequently ordered. Probably still used in some dental labs. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>> I seem to remember years ago sitting in a velvet lined dentists >>>> chair where the drill was powered by a foot pedal device. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > field, and the cords were frequently ordered. Probably still used in > some dental labs. OK, I didn't remember very clearly, it seems. Here's what I should have remembered: http://www.finetools.com/renderimage.aspx?Toolid=40 SignatureSkitt (AmE) ouch! >>>>> I seem to remember years ago sitting in a velvet lined dentists >>>>> chair where the drill was powered by a foot pedal device. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >remembered: >http://www.finetools.com/renderimage.aspx?Toolid=40 Then I misunderstood. The Jordan-Day was motor driven. The arm arrangement is very similar, but the power came from an electric motor. It was originally a dental drill - Jordan and Day were dentists - and was in general use by dentists in the 50s and later (by some). It was efficient as a dental drill, but the cloth cords stretched with time and use so the burr heads would slow down though the engine was at the same speed as before. The burr would start vibrating and clattering on the tooth. (Been there) SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>> I seem to remember years ago sitting in a velvet lined dentists >>>>>> chair where the drill was powered by a foot pedal device. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >the engine was at the same speed as before. The burr would start >vibrating and clattering on the tooth. (Been there) My dentist still has one of those that he uses solely for polishing. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>>>> I seem to remember years ago sitting in a velvet lined dentists >>>>>>> chair where the drill was powered by a foot pedal device. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > My dentist still has one of those that he uses solely for polishing. He polishes the bottom of his shoes? What a slip-up. SignatureRay UK >>>>> Called a Jordan-Day drill. Can't find a picture of one on the web, >>>>> but I've seen them. Those "strings" were cords like a thick, >>>>> round, shoelace. ... >> My dentist still has one of those that he uses solely for polishing. > He polishes the bottom of his shoes? What a slip-up. That's in case he needs to throw them at an Arab without being insulting. SignatureMark Brader "The design of the lowercase e in text faces Toronto produces strong feelings (or should do so)." msb@vex.net -- Walter Tracy > >> I seem to remember years ago sitting in a velvet lined dentists chair >> where the drill was powered by a foot pedal device. > >Oh, yes -- with a big black wheel and a belt. Many ship modelers use Dremel electric drills: http://www.dremeleurope.com/dremelocs-uk/Category.jsp;jsessionid=03FA4C6817DD736 FE1571B5275518809?&language=en-GB&ccat_id=469 They are a joy to use. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> Think about what a dentist >>> does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >as if I was drowning in the spray at one point, and having to swallow >frequently, even with the suction thingy. Yes. For me, the water is what makes the dentist experience particularly unpleasant for I'm often on the verge of choking on it, it seems. At home, I can easily spit the water out as I go along, when brushing my teeth. <snip> SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> Think about what a dentist >>> does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > as if I was drowning in the spray at one point, and having to swallow > frequently, even with the suction thingy. You're doubtless correct about the high speed drills. I rarely have to have my teeth drilled but did have a root canal a couple of years ago. I don't recall any excess water in my mouth, but that may have been because the dentist first covered everything but the tooth of interest with a rubber dam. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>> Think about what a dentist >>> does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >as if I was drowning in the spray at one point, and having to swallow >frequently, even with the suction thingy. But that's for drilling, rather than for cleaning. Mum was a dental hygienist and cleaned my teeth twice a day for years and never wet the toothbrush first. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>> Think about what a dentist >>>> does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > hygienist and cleaned my teeth twice a day for years and never wet the > toothbrush first. I was replying to John who didn't distinguish between drilling and cleaning. The nasty tartar removal business certainly involves water but the polishing with the brush attachment and pink paste doesn't, I agree. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > I was replying to John who didn't distinguish between drilling and > cleaning. The nasty tartar removal business certainly involves water but > the polishing with the brush attachment and pink paste doesn't, I agree. I don't recall ever experiencing any use of machinery or water in tartar removal, only hand-held picks. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> I was replying to John who didn't distinguish between drilling and >> cleaning. The nasty tartar removal business certainly involves water [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I don't recall ever experiencing any use of machinery or water in > tartar removal, only hand-held picks. I have always has some sort of miniature jackhammer used on me, and there definitely was water involved. I believe it was an ultrasonic scaler. The last time, because the dentist wanted to deep-clean two adjacent quarters without numbing the entire jaw area, there were no anti-pain shots involved (with my consent). It was OK. Barely. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> I was replying to John who didn't distinguish between drilling and >>> cleaning. The nasty tartar removal business certainly involves water [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >quarters without numbing the entire jaw area, there were no anti-pain shots >involved (with my consent). It was OK. Barely. At least the patient doesn't have to endure that hour of numbness afterwards, during which it is easy to bite a small chunk of flesh from his lip or the side of his mouth. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck wrote on Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:59:12 +0000: >>>> I was replying to John who didn't distinguish between >>>> drilling and cleaning. The nasty tartar removal business [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> were no anti-pain shots involved (with my consent). It was >> OK. Barely. > At least the patient doesn't have to endure that hour of > numbness afterwards, during which it is easy to bite a small > chunk of flesh from his lip or the side of his mouth. I have to have my teeth cleaned by a dental technician fairly frequently. I remember when the dentist acquired an ultra-sonic tooth cleaner. He said my language was very colorful but gave up using it. 30 years later a tech wanted to try again. In trepidation I allowed her and it actually was not painful so things may have improved. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Chuck wrote on Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:59:12 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >years later a tech wanted to try again. In trepidation I allowed her and >it actually was not painful so things may have improved. Some years ago an infection got into the root of one of my (twin-rooted) teeth. All normal treatments failed to shift the infection. I was put into the hands of a dentist at the local School of Dentistry (which was simultaneously part of a hospital group and the university where I worked). The dentist made further attempts to shift the infection. When these were unsuccessful he decided on surgery. He opened up the gum and, using the miniature ultrasonic jackhammer at right-angles to the surface of the tooth cut off the infected root. He took photographs at various stages of the procedure for teaching purposes. I returned to see him a number of times over the next two or three years for check-ups and reviews. At about my final appointment he proudly told me that he had since performed the procedure on two other patients. It then became clear that I had been his first. The most fiddly and frustrating part of the operation was sewing-up the gum after the root-ectomy. The gum was inflamed, soft and spongy, and the stitches kept pulling through. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) BrE filted: >The most fiddly and frustrating part of the operation was sewing-up the gum >after the root-ectomy. The gum was inflamed, soft and spongy, and the stitches >kept pulling through. This may not actually be TMI, but you can see it from here....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >> Chuck wrote on Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:59:12 +0000: >> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >after the root-ectomy. The gum was inflamed, soft and spongy, and the stitches >kept pulling through. Not that I'm unduly squeamish, but please put a warning sign on posts such as this. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> I was replying to John who didn't distinguish between drilling and >>> cleaning. The nasty tartar removal business certainly involves water [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > quarters without numbing the entire jaw area, there were no anti-pain shots > involved (with my consent). It was OK. Barely. Ye Gods! You people must develop unheard-of amounts of plaque. I'm beginning to understand why a hygienist once told me, "You don't know what a pleasure it is to work on a mouth like yours," which I thought was kind of weird even though complimentary. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Think about what a dentist >> does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >there is any serious work going on then the dentist has a suction >thingy stuck in my mouth to remove, not add, moisture. Your dentist does not have the latest equipment. Newer dental handpieces have a jet that shoots a fine stream of water into the mouth as teeth are drilled or polished. Since it's the heat caused by friction that causes the pain, this minimizes pain. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> Think about what a dentist >>> does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >mouth as teeth are drilled or polished. Since it's the heat caused by >friction that causes the pain, this minimizes pain. That is a load of bollocks. Pain is felt if and when the dentist's drill hits a nerve in the patient's tooth. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> Think about what a dentist >>>> does when he cleans your teeth. They use plenty of water. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >That is a load of bollocks. Pain is felt if and when the dentist's >drill hits a nerve in the patient's tooth. Most cavities are drilled and filled without the drill ever getting down to where the nerve is. Still, there's pain. http://www.subidental.com.au/index.php?page=laser explains about pain, heat, and water. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Chuck Riggs filted: >>Your dentist does not have the latest equipment. Newer dental >>handpieces have a jet that shoots a fine stream of water into the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >That is a load of bollocks. Pain is felt if and when the dentist's >drill hits a nerve in the patient's tooth. I thought so too, but I've been assured on many occasions that it's not pain but pressure, or "a little pinch"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I thought so too, but I've been assured on many occasions that it's not pain but >pressure, or "a little pinch"....r Isn't the "little pinch" the moment of injection of the pain killer most dentists use? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>Chuck Riggs filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Isn't the "little pinch" the moment of injection of the pain killer >most dentists use? A Scots lady, when doing blood tests, used to say "There'll just be a wee jag". SignatureIan >>>Chuck Riggs filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >A Scots lady, when doing blood tests, used to say "There'll just be a >wee jag". I hear this in Northern Ireland. I first heard from at least one Australian, possibly a cousin who is a doctor. OED: jag, v.1 {dag}1. trans. To pierce with a sharp instrument, to stab. Obs. exc. as in b. b. Sc., north. Eng., and U.S. dial. To prick with something sharp, as with a spur or thorn. {dag}c. absol. or intr. To pierce, thrust, prick. Obs. 2. trans. To slash or pink (a garment, etc.) by way of ornament. 3. To make indentations in the edge or surface of; to make ragged or uneven by cutting or tearing; to make rugged or bristling. to jag in, to indent with cuts. Hence(3) jagged. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>Chuck Riggs filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > A Scots lady, when doing blood tests, used to say "There'll just be a > wee jag". The dermatologist, from the Middle East, says 'There will be a little pulse', just before the injection. >>> I have to brush my teeth in cold water, the colder the better. >> A dentist pointed out to me that the mouth is a wet place and there is >> no reason to wet the toothbrush at all. So all of you Greens out there >> can help save the planet by no longer wetting your toothbrushes. > > I think that dentist is full of beans. "Full of beans" in BrE means very lively. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>> I have to brush my teeth in cold water, the colder the better. >>> A dentist pointed out to me that the mouth is a wet place and there [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > "Full of beans" in BrE means very lively. Do you mean you don't carry the metaphor just a bit further? Like, for example: Full of hot air? Or "blows the big one"? >>>>> I have to brush my teeth in cold water, the colder the better. >>>> A dentist pointed out to me that the mouth is a wet place and there [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Do you mean you don't carry the metaphor just a bit further? Like, for >example: Full of hot air? Or "blows the big one"? Not that I've noticed. http://www.bartleby.com/81/1520.html E. Cobham Brewer 18101897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898 _Full of beans_. Said of a fresh and spirited horse. http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/30/messages/2049.html FULL OF PRUNES (OR BEANS) -"Each has the same meaning - peppy, lively, energetic, in high spirits, feeling one's oats, rarin' to go. 'Beans' was the first, and was originally said of horses after a feeding of beans raised for fodder - horse beans. Undoubtedly the spirited state of a bean-fed horse was observed in remote times - Romans also used beans as fodder - but I find nothing equivalent to the current expression before its own rise less than a hundred years ago. (Note publication date of reference.).The substitution of 'prunes' came into use at least seventy years ago, but a satisfactory reason for it is difficult to determine." From "Heavens to Betsy" (1955, Harper & Row) by Charles Earle Funk. http://www.answers.com/topic/full-of-beans-1 1. Lively, energetic, in high spirits, as in The children were full of beans today, looking forward to their field trip. This expression has no valid explanation. [c. 1840] SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) [dentist extracting the michael?] >>>> I think that dentist is full of beans. >>> "Full of beans" in BrE means very lively. >> Do you mean you don't carry the metaphor just a bit further? >> Like, for example: Full of hot air? Or "blows the big one"? > Not that I've noticed. > http://www.bartleby.com/81/1520.html > E. Cobham Brewer 1810-1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898 > _Full of beans_. Said of a fresh and spirited horse. > http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/30/messages/2049.html > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > to determine." From "Heavens to Betsy" (1955, Harper & Row) by > Charles Earle Funk. > http://www.answers.com/topic/full-of-beans-1 > > 1. Lively, energetic, in high spirits, as in The children were > full of beans today, looking forward to their field trip. > This expression has no valid explanation. [c. 1840] "A farting horse is a strong horse." In Chuck's usage, the expression would be euphemistic for "full of horsefeathers". >[dentist extracting the michael?] > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >"A farting horse is a strong horse." In Chuck's usage, the expression >would be euphemistic for "full of horsefeathers". Very good. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote, in part: > http://www.answers.com/topic/full-of-beans-1 > > 1. Lively, energetic, in high spirits, as in The children were > full of beans today, looking forward to their field trip. This > expression has no valid explanation. [c. 1840] No explanation? I'd've thought the comparison is to Mexican Jumping Beans. SignatureMaria C. >>>>>> I have to brush my teeth in cold water, the colder the better. >>>>> A dentist pointed out to me that the mouth is a wet place and there [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > beans today, looking forward to their field trip. This expression has > no valid explanation. [c. 1840] I'm quite sure it was an expression I picked up from a friend of mine in Westport, Co Mayo when he wanted a weaker expression than "full of shite", to use a slang word popular in Ireland. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland <snip> >> But: I still want warm water for brushing my teeth no matter what the >> temperature is. > >Yuck. I have to brush my teeth in cold water, the colder the better. There is no other way, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not even sure that brushing with warm water is good for the teeth. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that comes out of the >>> spigot....r [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >brushes his teeth before he showers. It seems to me that brushing your >teeth before you shower is downright strange, but there you are. I'm amazed. It never occurred to me that the sequence of events in the morning ritual deserve any attention. I brush teeth first-thing because I am better prepared to face the rest of the process with fresh, minty, breath. Then I shower. Then I return to the sink, soak a face cloth* in hot water and apply it to my face, then shave. Currently, the last step is omitted because I'm now with beard. Tomorrow I won't be. I'm tired of the beard. OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" and curls her lip at the term "wash rag". Some stores carry them as "wash cloths". European hotels don't seem to supply these things. When traveling overseas, I always took one along because, to me, it's essential for shaving. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of > cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" and curls her lip > at the term "wash rag". Some stores carry them as "wash cloths". > European hotels don't seem to supply these things. When traveling > overseas, I always took one along because, to me, it's essential for > shaving. At school (UK) we boys called it a "flannel", but Matron (SWMBO) always referred to it as a "face-cloth". -- WH >> OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of >> cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" and curls her lip [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > At school (UK) we boys called it a "flannel", but Matron (SWMBO) > always referred to it as a "face-cloth". I'm used to "flannel", but I've never seen one which wasn't Terry towelling. I've also heard "wash-cloth" in BrE. In AusE, at least in some families, it's a "washer". Somewhere out there is a French anecdote about a king and bottom-wiping with the punch-line "It's better than cotton: it's Flanel". A one-time girlfriend related that she and the other trainee nurses were once asked to bring in their flannels next day. They obeyed, and cultures were made...and I do mean the Petri dish kind... SignatureMike. >>> OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of >>> cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" and curls her lip [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > once asked to bring in their flannels next day. They obeyed, and > cultures were made...and I do mean the Petri dish kind... I was brought up to use a face flannel and the family flannels were boiled every week in an enamel bowl on top of the gas stove. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > >>> OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of > >>> cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" and curls her lip [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I was brought up to use a face flannel and the family flannels were > boiled every week in an enamel bowl on top of the gas stove. When YoungBloke was born I bought two packs of cheap face flannels from IKEA for use instead of wet wipes at nappy changes. Now he's out of nappies, they get used daily and then thrown in the wash. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>> OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of >>>> cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" and curls her lip [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >I was brought up to use a face flannel and the family flannels were >boiled every week in an enamel bowl on top of the gas stove. The OED has "face flannel = face-cloth". In addition to being a BrE word, is face flannel an IrE one? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs wrote, in <e42ik458r0hf53q72pvrfi9r2scr0qplh5@4ax.com> on Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:17:33 +0000: > >>>> OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of > >>>> cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" and curls her lip [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > The OED has "face flannel = face-cloth". In addition to being a BrE > word, is face flannel an IrE one? I don't know, with my BrE background I've always known it, often as just flannel, and face cloth too so I wouldn't notice which was used. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > I'm used to "flannel", but I've never seen one which wasn't Terry > towelling. I've also heard "wash-cloth" in BrE. In AusE, at least in > some families, it's a "washer". Indeed, "face-washer" or simply "washer". SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of > cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" and curls her lip > at the term "wash rag". Some stores carry them as "wash cloths". > European hotels don't seem to supply these things. When traveling > overseas, I always took one along because, to me, it's essential for > shaving. It was always a "wash rag" in our house when I was growing up. The same for my husband. Nowadays, I generally use "wash cloth" since it sounds a bit nicer; Brian usually says "wash rag," and, most likely, doesn't care what it may sound like. I think "wash rag" vs "wash cloth" may be, at least partially, an age/time thing. For one thing, "rags" remind one of, well, "rags" -- tattered clothes. Also, once something is manufactured and then sold in stores by a certain name, that certain name quickly becomes the "proper" name for that item. Old names begin to sound wrong, and less "nice". Note: I don't think any store ever advertised "dish rags" for sale. "Face cloth," by the way, gets no use in this house. I admit is sounds nicer than "wash rag" or even "wash cloth," though. Maybe I'll start using a "face cloth." (But can I use one on the non-face parts of me?) Speaking of "wash rag," what about "dish rag"? That's what I call the thing I wash dishes with. Maybe I use "dish cloth" sometimes, but I'm not sure. A "dish towel" (what else?) is used for drying dishes. SignatureMaria > Also, once something is manufactured and then sold in > stores by a certain name, that certain name quickly becomes the "proper" > name for that item. Old names begin to sound wrong, and less "nice". The stuff they sell on TV is underarm, not armpit, deodorant. Our children grew up thinking underarm was the correct word for armpit. Carroll Shelby, a famous race driver and constructor in the 1950s and 60s, marketed a deodorant called Pit Stop. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Also, once something is manufactured and then sold in >> stores by a certain name, that certain name quickly becomes the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Carroll Shelby, a famous race driver and constructor in the 1950s > and 60s, marketed a deodorant called Pit Stop. Carroll Shelby is a constructor, still, even, yet. http://www.fototime.com/inv/4027F8BD896E34A In 1968 I bought a two-pound package of chemicals to fireproof my racing suit from one of his shops. "Pit Stop" was on the same shelf, and it was one or the other ... In my family we've had occasion to refer to the "knee pit". SignatureFrank ess >> OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of >> cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" and curls her lip [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >thing I wash dishes with. Maybe I use "dish cloth" sometimes, but I'm >not sure. A "dish towel" (what else?) is used for drying dishes. To me, "rags" are for general purpose cleaning, to include cleaning of your vehicles or other possessions, cleaning around the shop and cleaning in the home but are not for the cleaning of dishes or people. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of >>> cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" and curls her lip [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > your vehicles or other possessions, cleaning around the shop and > cleaning in the home but are not for the cleaning of dishes or people. And rags are things that were once cloths, or clothes, or other household articles made out of fabric such as sheets or pillowcases which have worn out and been demoted. SignatureLaura, worn out and expecting to be demoted... (emulate St. George for email) >>>> OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of >>>> cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" and curls her lip [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >household articles made out of fabric such as sheets or pillowcases >which have worn out and been demoted. Exactly so, but with one exception I know of. There are companies in America that manufacture excellent quality rags for industrial purposes. These are bought by the bundle and washed by the bundle by contractors who specialize in such work. From my experience when working in a Maryland factory, they are both soft and tough. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs wrote: > laura wrote: >>And rags are things that were once cloths, or clothes, or other >>household articles made out of fabric such as sheets or pillowcases [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > contractors who specialize in such work. From my experience when > working in a Maryland factory, they are both soft and tough. When I was working at the catasrophic cleaners, we bought "shop rags" by the hundred-pound box. There were two kinds: hemmed, smooth-textured blue ones that were supposed to be lint-free for glass, and white, unfinished- edge, lightweight terry cloth ones for everything else. The white ones were cut from hotel towels that had gotten too old, thin or stained to meet the standards of the various hotel chains. >Chuck Riggs wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >cut from hotel towels that had gotten too old, thin or stained to meet the >standards of the various hotel chains. The ones the National Instrument Laboratory in Rockville, Maryland used were most like the blue ones you describe. Any lint could have interfered with a line of instruments we built, so it was important we kept dirt and so forth out of the calibration room, where I worked. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>Chuck Riggs wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >interfered with a line of instruments we built, so it was important we >kept dirt and so forth out of the calibration room, where I worked. Those blue "rags" are usually obtained from hospitals or from companies that supply them to hospitals. They are used in surgery for a number of purposes. Hospitals buy them by the bale, and sell them to rag companies after a few uses. Blue is the traditional color, but some are green. They are lint-free and all-cotton. Great for window rags. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>Chuck Riggs wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >They are lint-free and all-cotton. Great for window rags. NIH had a contract with a company that did nothing but supply bundles of high quality, washed rags to a variety of companies, but I doubt if hospitals would be interested in industrial rags. They'd want a sterile, new product, I would think, rather than rags than had been used in some very dirty environments, then washed. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>Chuck Riggs wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >sterile, new product, I would think, rather than rags than had been >used in some very dirty environments, then washed. I said that hospitals are the source, Charles, not the user. They buy the towels new and sell their used ones. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>Chuck Riggs wrote: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >I said that hospitals are the source, Charles, not the user. They buy >the towels new and sell their used ones. As usual you don't listen, Coop, you're always so anxious to stick your oar in. Our rags were not the sort hospitals use, end of story. Forget about it. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>>Chuck Riggs wrote: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >your oar in. Our rags were not the sort hospitals use, end of story. >Forget about it. I have a friend, met when I was in the medical supply business, that sells the blue hospital towels as part of his line of cloth products. One of his good accounts has been NASA in Cape Canaveral. They buy the new hospital towels as industrial rags for shop use because they are all-cotton, lint-free, color-fast, and long-lasting. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>>Chuck Riggs wrote: >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >the new hospital towels as industrial rags for shop use because they >are all-cotton, lint-free, color-fast, and long-lasting. Our rags and NASA's rags were a country apart. Forget rags. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>>Chuck Riggs wrote: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >your oar in. Our rags were not the sort hospitals use, end of story. >Forget about it. You really can't bear to be wrong, can you Chuck? Especially if it's Tony who's right. Get off your high horse for once and read the entire exchange /carefully/. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>>Chuck Riggs wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > sterile, new product, I would think, rather than rags than had been > used in some very dirty environments, then washed. I believe that he's saying that the blue rags were recycled from their original use in the hospital, not that they were sent to hospitals (except for those that the hospitals buy back for the janitors to use on windows.) [ ... ] > I believe that he's saying that the blue rags were recycled from > their original use in the hospital, not that they were sent to > hospitals (except for those that the hospitals buy back for the > janitors to use on windows.) When I worked at the Kearny Mesa Home For Wayward Children, we sent our clothing and bed linens - woolen blankets, too, now that I think of it - to the County hospital for laundering. Once cleaned and returned, torn ones were used for cleanup, including in the kitchen. Sausages and law. I'd be surprised to learn that the hospital still does its own or anyone else's laundry now, what with the tide of contracting-out that swept through here recently. That and the scarcity of undeveloped real property in the hospital's neighborhood seem likely to have spurred an advanced use for the laundry's space. After I left the Home, other charges (equally wayward, but not requiring institutionalization) used rags I liberated from the Home to perpetrate "car-wash" in local communities, in order to earn funds for a trip to Disneyland. Now /that/ was fun. The car-washes and the trip. Amazing: how clean a car can seem after a massage with several ripped pairs of hospital-laundered "briefs"; how fast a group of waywards can meld into a crowd; how easily a trained eye can discover the (assigned and other) waywards in a superficially homogeneous group. SignatureFrank ess >>>>>Chuck Riggs wrote: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >(except for those that the hospitals buy back for the janitors to use on >windows.) As I said, I doubt if the heavy, industrial rags our company used had any medical uses. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>>Chuck Riggs wrote: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >As I said, I doubt if the heavy, industrial rags our company used had >any medical uses. Prior to your company using them, I'm pretty sure they did. Hospitals use cloths for a huge variety of reasons. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary Tony Cooper wrote: > OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of > cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" and curls her lip > at the term "wash rag". Some stores carry them as "wash cloths". For me the only term is "washcloth". But what I'd much rather have is a (foam plastic) sponge. Unfortunately, the stores around here seem to have decided that nobody uses the things any more except for cleaning, so they only sell rough-surfaced ones. SignatureMark Brader | "I realised... at the traditional time -- Toronto | just after clicking on Send." msb@vex.net | --Peter Duncanson My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark Brader filted: >Tony Cooper wrote: >> OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >seem to have decided that nobody uses the things any more except for >cleaning, so they only sell rough-surfaced ones. The stores around here have similarly decided that nobody wants a long-handled bath brush with bristles any more...accordingly, all you can find are those wadded up plastic things ("scrunchies"?) attached to a stick.... (I use those rough-surfaced things for cleaning, but especially for scrubbing potatoes before cooking)....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Mark Brader filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > can find are those wadded up plastic things ("scrunchies"?) attached > to a stick.... Oh, I have halfaloofa on a stick. That works just fine, too. Back and feet. > (I use those rough-surfaced things for cleaning, but especially for > scrubbing potatoes before cooking).... Long ago, there was a lady from Texas who took a survey of all the possible uses of nylon netting, such as onion bags or some bean thread. I don't know if they restricted the netting to nylon, particularly. Oh, "Hints from Heloise". I think she may even have published a book about netting uses. I know that scrubbing was a primary use. Nowadays, I have a backscrubber (purchased, not recycled) that is about a foot long, made from very generous amounts of colorful nylon netting braided, with two rings as handles. Works best with two hands, of course, and hangs handily to dry quickly in the shower. I think of Heloise every year in my garden, because the onion bags, etc, when clipped and stretched, make wonderful ties for my staked plants. . .tomatoes, beans, and climbers. And they re-use very nicely. This past summer, I found a bit of nylon screening left over from fixing my front door. That worked a treat, too. > Mark Brader filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > (I use those rough-surfaced things for cleaning, but especially for > scrubbing potatoes before cooking)....r Couple years back sister gave me a back-scrubber brush - pig-bristle, it seems like, on a nice wooden base of traditional shape. Came from "The Gap" clothing store. Durable and functional, so far (store and brush, both). Never paid much attention to how face cloths were called, but the one set that seems to wring a bell is "wash rag". We've taken to using microfiber cloth squares as supplied as car-drying/polishing tools, for face-cloth purposes; a bit larger and much gentler and more absorbent. Whenever I see them offered in a color different from what we have, I buy another package. We have Very Yellow, Very Orange, Sorta Beige, Pretty Blue, More Blue, Almost Chartreuse, and the latest, Light Gray. Can't have too many: Microfiber cloths Flashlights (torches) Pocket knives Scissors ? SignatureFrank ess Frank ess wrote, i part: > Can't have too many: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Scissors > ? According to my 11-yr-old grandson, the "?" would be "Shamwow." https://www.shamwow.com/ver4/index.asp He actually asked for Shamwow for his birthday, and his other grandma got him some. It's great stuff. We all experimented with spilling some liquid and then soaking it up with Shamwow. It was amazing. And fast. (And fun.) This is not a paid advertisement. SignatureMaria C. >Frank ess wrote, i part: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >This is not a paid advertisement. The guy that does the TV advertisement for that product is almost, almost, as annoying as Billy Mays. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> Frank ess wrote, i part: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > The guy that does the TV advertisement for that product is almost, > almost, as annoying as Billy Mays. Maybe we could lock them all in a room together, along with Bob of "Bob's Discount Furniture". Fran >Maybe we could lock them all in a room together, along with Bob of >"Bob's Discount Furniture". If the cell is still accepting inmates, how about the woman who voices the "Internet Speedway" ads ("the Internet business that VIRtually. RUNS. itSELF", "the first step to becoming wealthy is deciding to be wealthy"). Even the colon-cleansing-fraud guy ("like spackle or paste") isn't anywhere near as annoying. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness Garrett Wollman filted: >>Maybe we could lock them all in a room together, along with Bob of >>"Bob's Discount Furniture". [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >wealthy"). Even the colon-cleansing-fraud guy ("like spackle or >paste") isn't anywhere near as annoying. There's probably room now that "Crazy" Eddie Antor is out of business...I'm not sure whether "JJ, the King of Beepers" is still around, but he'd fit right in with this crowd....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>Frank ess wrote, i part: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >The guy that does the TV advertisement for that product is almost, >almost, as annoying as Billy Mays. I'd never heard of it, probably because it has yet to swim across the Atlantic, if there's any Atlantic left by the time it's finished. I had to look it up. It has some pretty scathing reviews out there. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>Frank ess wrote, i part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Atlantic, if there's any Atlantic left by the time it's finished. I >had to look it up. It has some pretty scathing reviews out there. For a sample of a Billy Mays commercial: http://www.asseenontvvideo.com/511647/Mighty-Mendit.html SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>The guy that does the TV advertisement for that product is almost, >>>almost, as annoying as Billy Mays. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > For a sample of a Billy Mays commercial: > http://www.asseenontvvideo.com/511647/Mighty-Mendit.html ObUsage: "Mighty Mendit is not a glue, but a flexible bonding agent..." Huhwhat? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >ObUsage: "Mighty Mendit is not a glue, but a flexible bonding agent..." I think I understand the distinction being drawn here, but I don't know if I can explain it properly. Compare the distinctions among "soap", "detergent", and "surfactant". He seems to be using some definition of "glue" that includes only very traditional (protein-based?) adhesives; resins like epoxy and water-catalyzed polymer adhesives like cyanoacrylates are presumably also excluded. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>ObUsage: "Mighty Mendit is not a glue, but a flexible bonding agent..." > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > (protein-based?) adhesives; resins like epoxy and water-catalyzed > polymer adhesives like cyanoacrylates are presumably also excluded. I follow the reasoning. I'm not sure how a line of thinking by which Crazy Glue isn't a glue fits into truth-in-advertising rules (such as they are). I bet it just squeaks in under the wire, at least in Mighty Mendit's lawyer's opinion. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland wrote on Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:30:08 -0500: >>> ObUsage: "Mighty Mendit is not a glue, but a flexible bonding >>> agent..." [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> epoxy and water-catalyzed polymer adhesives like >> cyanoacrylates are presumably also excluded. > I follow the reasoning. I'm not sure how a line of thinking > by which Crazy Glue isn't a glue fits into > truth-in-advertising rules (such as they are). I bet it just > squeaks in under the wire, at least in Mighty Mendit's > lawyer's opinion. As far as I am concerned, current practice, and my own, is that glue is a synonym for adhesive and a distinction is unnecessry. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not James Silverton filted: > Roland wrote on Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:30:08 -0500: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >As far as I am concerned, current practice, and my own, is that glue is >a synonym for adhesive and a distinction is unnecessry. For those scoring along at home, we now know who *isn't* Areff....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >James Silverton filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >For those scoring along at home, we now know who *isn't* Areff....r And we know who not to consult when building a wooden ship model. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck wrote on Sat, 20 Dec 2008 09:23:12 +0000: >> James Silverton filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> For those scoring along at home, we now know who *isn't* >> Areff....r > And we know who not to consult when building a wooden ship > model. -- You'd be right about building models. I won't disagree that there are different sorts of glues with different setting times and strengths. I just maintain that "glue" is the common word and the average person would find it hard to differentiate between "glue" and "adhesive". SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Chuck wrote on Sat, 20 Dec 2008 09:23:12 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >just maintain that "glue" is the common word and the average person >would find it hard to differentiate between "glue" and "adhesive". I think of tape when I hear "adhesive" and a paste or a liquid when I hear "glue". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > I think of tape when I hear "adhesive" and a paste or a liquid when I > hear "glue". Same here, to the extent that I don't call an epoxy glue a glue, I call it "epoxy". And I never have said "mucilage". SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> I think of tape when I hear "adhesive" and a paste or a liquid when I >> hear "glue". > > Same here, to the extent that I don't call an epoxy glue a glue, I > call it "epoxy". And I never have said "mucilage". I use "adhesive" as the general umbrella term, noun or adjective, for all sticky stuff. But I don't call epoxy "glue", either. As for "mucilage", it always seems too disgusting to contemplate: gum's the word. SignatureMike. >> I think of tape when I hear "adhesive" and a paste or a liquid when I >> hear "glue". > >Same here, to the extent that I don't call an epoxy glue a glue, I call >it "epoxy". And I never have said "mucilage". After kindergarten I never had a use for mucilage, but I've used white glue, also known as wood glue, airplane glue, also known as modeler's glue, available in at least four "speeds", contact cement when tiling and Super Glue for general purpose use. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> I think of tape when I hear "adhesive" and a paste or a liquid when I >>> hear "glue". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > glue, available in at least four "speeds", contact cement when tiling > and Super Glue for general purpose use. In kindergaten we had paste rather than glue. Tasted a lot better than mucilage, too. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>> I think of tape when I hear "adhesive" and a paste or a liquid when I >>>> hear "glue". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >In kindergaten we had paste rather than glue. We had access to both as I recall. >Tasted a lot better than mucilage, too. That is very true. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > airplane glue, also known as modeler's > glue, available in at least four "speeds" Are you talking about glue for those modern plastic models or glue for real balsa models such as real boys used to make? I used either Dupont "Duco Cement" or Lepage's for balsa model building. I forget what Lepage's called itself: glue, cement, or something else. I still have a tube of good old Duco Cement in the work bench. If you got a whiff of either Duco or Lepage's it would make you dizzy. I don't suppose today's formulation does that. Maybe I should test it. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. John Varela filted: >I used either Dupont "Duco Cement" or Lepage's for balsa model >building. I forget what Lepage's called itself: glue, cement, or >something else. I still have a tube of good old Duco Cement in the >work bench. If you got a whiff of either Duco or Lepage's it would >make you dizzy. I don't suppose today's formulation does that. Maybe >I should test it. And he was never heard from again....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >> airplane glue, also known as modeler's >> glue, available in at least four "speeds" [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >make you dizzy. I don't suppose today's formulation does that. Maybe >I should test it. While it is killing off a few unneeded brain cells, it produces a comfortable buzz, but I doubt if the effects are lang-losintg. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> airplane glue, also known as modeler's >>> glue, available in at least four "speeds" [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > While it is killing off a few unneeded brain cells, it produces a > comfortable buzz, And just exactly *how* do you know that? > but I doubt if the effects are lang-losintg. Signs point to "Yes". SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>>> airplane glue, also known as modeler's >>>> glue, available in at least four "speeds" [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Signs point to "Yes". Then you misread the signs. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> airplane glue, also known as modeler's >>>>> glue, available in at least four "speeds" [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Then you misread the signs. Oh, heck. I think J V is probably admitting to some loss of brain cells helsimf. >>>>>> airplane glue, also known as modeler's >>>>>> glue, available in at least four "speeds" [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Oh, heck. I think J V is probably admitting to some loss of brain cells > helsimf. Remember those eight-ball things that respond to questions? "Signs point to yes" or "to no"? I was trying to express the thought that signs point to his having had effects, but debated whether the correct way to say that was "yes" or "no". I finally settled on "yes, the effects are long-lasting" but at least two people think it meant "yes, your doubt is correct". Oh well. That's how it goes with oracles. The question or statement given to the oracle should leave no room for abmiugity. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>>>>>> airplane glue, also known as modeler's >>>>>>> glue, available in at least four "speeds" [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Oh well. That's how it goes with oracles. The question or statement > given to the oracle should leave no room for abmiugity. OK. But coracles seem to screw up the answers so that their eeperskeep their jobs of interpreting them. Of course I can remember the magic 8-ball (and your clue was good enough). We were allowed to play with that, though not with the neighbor's ouija board. > Of course I can remember the magic 8-ball (and your clue was good > enough). We were allowed to play with that, though not with the > neighbor's ouija board. At a white elephant party I was given a plastic, battery operated "crystal ball" patterned after the magic 8-ball except that it spoke and the answers were obscene: "sh.t no!" and "How the f.ck would I know?" and the like. The giver had picked it from a pile of trash in front of someone's house. I tried to pass it on to a son, suggesting that he take it to his office to answer difficult questions, but he declined. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email John Varela filted: >> Of course I can remember the magic 8-ball (and your clue was good >> enough). We were allowed to play with that, though not with the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >that he take it to his office to answer difficult questions, but he >declined. Anybody know where I can get ahold of a magic 8-ball Java applet?...I figure that in a world where someone has implemented a slide rule on the web [1] a twenty-way "decider" shouldn't be too difficult....r [1] http://www.syssrc.com/html/museum/html/sims/javaslide/ Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >> Of course I can remember the magic 8-ball (and your clue was good >> enough). We were allowed to play with that, though not with the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >that he take it to his office to answer difficult questions, but he >declined. A variation is a toy computer sold in Ireland that plays 21 questions. A friend who bought one appears amazed by its performance, even though the algorithm is a straightforward one, for she can't resist showing it off. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> I think of tape when I hear "adhesive" and a paste or a liquid when >>> I hear "glue". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > glue, available in at least four "speeds", contact cement when tiling > and Super Glue for general purpose use. White glue. . .to me that is "Elmer's" or a glue made from casein. Wood glue, at least on those New Yankee Workshop programs was carpenter's glue, and was yellowish and had a very strange smell. I think it really was from old horses, etc. I recall mucilage as a kind of rubber cement, while wallpaper paste was made from cornstarch. Airplane glue always smells of acetone, whether for wood or plastic modeling, but I don't recall the special "speeds". The stuff for plastic models "melted" the plastic, so I think I would certainly refer to it as "bonding agent". The superglue infamously used to glue some guy's penis to his belly (or leg) is pretty dangerous, and it does bond by penetrating the top layers of skin. I suppose, nowadays, it is used in many surgeries to close wounds, avoiding stapling and stitches, which might pull out or cause allergic reactions, etc. Anyway, what a godsend! [...] > The superglue infamously used to glue some guy's penis to his belly > (or leg) is pretty dangerous, and it does bond by penetrating the top > layers of skin. I suppose, nowadays, it is used in many surgeries to > close wounds, avoiding stapling and stitches, which might pull out or > cause allergic reactions, etc. Anyway, what a godsend! I had to superglue a wing back on a plaster putto this morning. Why does the cyano-acrylate stuff not stick porous surfaces if you don't wet them? It's counter-intuitive for "chemical" adhesives. SignatureMike. Mike wrote on Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:09:46 -0000: > [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> which might pull out or cause allergic >> reactions, etc. Anyway, what a godsend! > I had to superglue a wing back on a plaster putto this > morning. Why does the cyano-acrylate stuff not stick porous > surfaces if you don't wet them? It's counter-intuitive for > "chemical" adhesives. The polymerization process requires a small amount of water. There's quite sufficient in skin or in the air to dampen most surfaces but porous materials often have little water available. There are two-part superglues that provide the moisture and one paints one surface with each component. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not James wrote to Mike Lyle on Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:24:53 -0500: >> [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> and stitches, which might pull out or cause >>> allergic reactions, etc. Anyway, what a godsend! >> I had to superglue a wing back on a plaster putto this >> morning. Why does the cyano-acrylate stuff not stick porous >> surfaces if you don't wet them? It's counter-intuitive for >> "chemical" adhesives. > The polymerization process requires a small amount of water. > There's quite sufficient in skin or in the air to dampen most surfaces > but porous materials often have little water > available. There are two-part superglues that provide the > moisture and one paints one surface with each component. Sorry, didn't express that very well: the two components are applied one to each surface. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > [...] >> The superglue infamously used to glue some guy's penis to his belly [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I had to superglue a wing back on a plaster putto this morning. That sounds like the first line of a most intriguing story, possibly with a Lovejoyish hero. (Whatever happened to that Peasemarch chap who was always trying bits of fiction out on us?) It is, at any rate, a more interesting insight into aue poster habits than all that stuff about dentists. [..] SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> [...] >>> The superglue infamously used to glue some guy's penis to his belly [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >interesting insight into aue poster habits than all that stuff about >dentists. My thought was "Ah, someone else who doesn't put up his decorations until about now, and then lets one of the putti fall off the mantelpiece". SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ [...] >>> I had to superglue a wing back on a plaster putto this morning. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> rate, a more interesting insight into aue poster habits than all >> that stuff about dentists. Let me tell you my true Egypt wisdom tooth story... > My thought was "Ah, someone else who doesn't put up his decorations > until about now, and then lets one of the putti fall off the > mantelpiece". Exactly, except no mantelpiece. In my childhood family, we didn't put up the decorations till Christmas Eve. I relaxed it a lot with my own children, but without their constant presence I've back-slipped nearer to the old ways. SignatureMike. >[...] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >children, but without their constant presence I've back-slipped nearer >to the old ways. Likewise in my childhood. These days I compromise on putting them up for the winter solstice. And they stay up until Twelfth Night, of course. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ LFS wrote on Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:35:03 +0000: >> [...] >>> The superglue infamously used to glue some guy's penis to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> I had to superglue a wing back on a plaster putto this >> morning. > That sounds like the first line of a most intriguing story, > possibly with a Lovejoyish hero. (Whatever happened to that > Peasemarch chap who was always trying bits of fiction out on > us?) It is, at any rate, a more interesting insight into aue > poster habits than all that stuff about dentists. > [..] I may be missing another problem of porous materials, the amount of surface that will actually be connected is very small. Incidentally, you can buy specially formulated superglue for medical use on small cuts. People taking blood thinners use it since scratches are slow to stop bleeding. Probably they shouldn't but I have heard of nurses using regular super glue on skin in an emergency. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > LFS wrote on Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:35:03 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >bleeding. Probably they shouldn't but I have heard of nurses using >regular super glue on skin in an emergency. Doctors too. Cyanoacrylates are increasingly used by vets and medics to bond skin, instead of suturing. It's a damn sight easier than trying to suture small children. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>> [...] >>>>> The superglue infamously used to glue some guy's penis to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>>>> and stitches, which might pull out or cause allergic >>>>> reactions, etc. Anyway, what a godsend! >> I may be missing another problem of porous materials, the amount of >> surface that will actually be connected is very small. Incidentally, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to bond skin, instead of suturing. It's a damn sight easier than > trying to suture small children. I just remembered that in my medicine cabinet I have something called Skin Shield (sub: Liquid Bandage _with pain reliever_) Of course I couldn't find it the first time I had need of it, but it was good for the second cut. I never gave it a thought when I had a bad blister just a month ago, but I think it would have worked for that. (Active ingredients: Diclonine hydrochloride 0.75%, Benzethonium chloride 0.20%. . .Del Pharmaceuticals). I have no idea of the "inactive ingredients". I never thought of using it as a glue, but it appears to have the consistency of lady's clear fingernail enamel. (snipped) > I never thought of using it as a glue, but it appears to have the > consistency of lady's clear fingernail enamel. "Acrylic lacquer". Fingernail polish is lacquer. Our girl and I mix our own custom fingernail polish colors using her father's custom car lacquer paints. This really annoys him. SignaturePurl Gurl -- This is to the native American poster who I believe to be a woman, but for some reason is gotten up like Groucho Marx: Excuse me? -- Margo Howard, 11/19/2008 > I just remembered that in my medicine cabinet I have something called > Skin Shield (sub: Liquid Bandage _with pain reliever_) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > chloride 0.20%. . .Del Pharmaceuticals). I have no idea of the > "inactive ingredients". If it's like the product I know as NuSkin, the "inactive ingredients" are the sticky stuff that holds the wound together plus the solvent (the "active ingredients" are the antiseptics and pain-relievers). It's basically good old fashioned collodion: would you believe guncotton dissolved in acetone and/or other solvents? It's been around since forever. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> [...] >>> The superglue infamously used to glue some guy's penis to his belly [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >[..] The putto had become discoloured. The cleaning was going well until while cleaning his teeth ......... SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >the cyano-acrylate stuff not stick porous surfaces if you don't wet >them? It's counter-intuitive for "chemical" adhesives. For many years, I have suffered from the skin splitting on the very ends of my fingers and thumbs. The splits are small fissures, and often start deep in the flesh, then work their way upwards to the skin. Although there is little to see, the pain can sometimes be excruciating. The application to the split of a small bead of super glue (which hardens into a small scab) is a rapid fix for the problem. It works best when the area is de-greased (eg by washing), and the superglue applied before the skin has dried completely. Getting the super glue to 'go off' and harden into a scab can be a problem. Again, moisture is needed. Holding the finger in question (momentarily) in the steam from a boiling kettle usually gets the superglue hardening. Breathing moisture ('haarring') on it also works, but is second-best. In the meantime, care must be taken not to stick the finger accidentally to the tongue or lips, another finger, a desk top etc etc. After the superglue has hardened into a small scab, the skin and flesh around the split are effectively immobilised, and the pain vanishes. The split then heals rapidly, and is usually gone by the time the 'scab' comes adrift (a day or two later). I did ask a doctor if the repeated use of superglue posed any health problems. He didn't know, but reckoned probably not. SignatureIan >Breathing moisture >('haarring') on it also works, but is second-best. haar: the verbed noun "haar": a coastal fog, primarily in Scotland. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>Breathing moisture >>('haarring') on it also works, but is second-best. > >haar: the verbed noun "haar": a coastal fog, primarily in Scotland. I thought you'd be impressed! SignatureIan >>>Breathing moisture >>>('haarring') on it also works, but is second-best. >> >>haar: the verbed noun "haar": a coastal fog, primarily in Scotland. >> >I thought you'd be impressed! I am. I'd hoped it was deliberate. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>Breathing moisture >>>>('haarring') on it also works, but is second-best. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >I am. I'd hoped it was deliberate. It was. I'd normally use 'haarring' for the action of breathing moisture onto something. It's both onomatopoeic (good heavens - the spell checker wasn't triggered!) and descriptive of the moisture produced. Is there an alternative? SignatureIan >>>>>Breathing moisture >>>>>('haarring') on it also works, but is second-best. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >wasn't triggered!) and descriptive of the moisture produced. Is there an >alternative? Not one as good. Some people might use "huffing". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>>Breathing moisture >>>>>>('haarring') on it also works, but is second-best. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Some people might use "huffing". Overkill. Far too violent an exhalation. Elfin Safety will get involved. Risk assessment required. History of severe structural damage to buildings (ask any Big Bad Wolf). SignatureIan >>>>>>>Breathing moisture >>>>>>>('haarring') on it also works, but is second-best. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Risk assessment required. History of severe structural damage to >buildings (ask any Big Bad Wolf). Anyway, "harring" was more descriptive of what you do than "huffing", I think, and not something most of us would have trouble understanding. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >I recall mucilage as a kind of rubber cement, The mucilage I'm familiar with is brown and not at all like rubber cement. It came in a bottle with a rubber top with a slit in it. You rubbed the rubber top over the paper and it left a strip of glue. Rubber cement is clear-to-whitish, and is applied with the brush that comes as part of the lid of the bottle. Rubber cement can be removed by rubbing it, but mucilage is there to stay. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>I recall mucilage as a kind of rubber cement, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Rubber cement is clear-to-whitish, and is applied with the brush that > comes as part of the lid of the bottle. And smells profusely of solvent, and a bit of rubber. > Rubber cement can be removed > by rubbing it, but mucilage is there to stay. They do have in common that they are about the same color when dried. The other cool thing about rubber cement is that if it is applied in a particular way (on both surfaces, then allowed to dry), you can reposition what you stick together with it, rather like a post-it note. That's of course the way camera-ready boards used to get pasted up in pre-Pagemaker days. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Rubber cement is clear-to-whitish, and is applied with the brush that > comes as part of the lid of the bottle. Rubber cement can be removed > by rubbing it, but mucilage is there to stay. No no no no. I have some right here. In fact I have a bottle (or jar) and a can. The rubber cement in the jar (or bottle) is yellowish in color, contains hexane, and would benefit from a shot of the special thinner that the stationery store didn't have in stock the last time I asked. The stuff in the can is labeled "White Rubber Cement" and contains heptane. It is definitely white or grayish in color. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Rubber cement is clear-to-whitish, and is applied with the brush that >> comes as part of the lid of the bottle. Rubber cement can be removed [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >asked. The stuff in the can is labeled "White Rubber Cement" and >contains heptane. It is definitely white or grayish in color. What are you saying "no" to? Where are we in disagreement? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> Rubber cement is clear-to-whitish, and is applied with the brush that >>> comes as part of the lid of the bottle. Rubber cement can be removed [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What are you saying "no" to? Where are we in disagreement? At a guess, "yellowish" doesn't seem to fall on the "clear to whitish" spectrum. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>> Rubber cement is clear-to-whitish, and is applied with the brush that >>>> comes as part of the lid of the bottle. Rubber cement can be removed [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >At a guess, "yellowish" doesn't seem to fall on the "clear to whitish" >spectrum. While snipped, the post was comparing mucilage to rubber cement. Mucilage is dark brown and thin enough to get through the slit in the rubber-capped bottle. Rubber cement, at least the brand I buy, is clear-to-whitish. It dries yellowish, though. Mucilage dries to a dark brown. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>> Rubber cement is clear-to-whitish, and is applied with the brush that >>>>> comes as part of the lid of the bottle. Rubber cement can be removed [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > clear-to-whitish. It dries yellowish, though. Mucilage dries to a > dark brown. You'll get no argument from me on that. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:48:26 -0500, John Varela >>> <OLDlamps@verizon.net> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > clear-to-whitish. It dries yellowish, though. Mucilage dries to a > dark brown. After you described the mucilage in the little bottle with the glue applied through a slot in the rubber cap, I remembered it, Tony. But I can't recall it as a dark brown. It was certainly lighter in color than dark Karo syrup. I don't really remember what color it dried to. I do recall that dispensing cap reminded me of a chess bishop. >>>> On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:48:26 -0500, John Varela >>>> <OLDlamps@verizon.net> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >dark Karo syrup. I don't really remember what color it dried to. I do >recall that dispensing cap reminded me of a chess bishop. I can't describe the shade of brown, but it is brown. If you want to see what color it dries to, look in an old library book. Back when library books had little pockets glued into the book, those pockets were glued in with mucilage. There was usually a brown stain of excess glue around the pocket. Another use for mucilage was gluing photographs into albums. It didn't show on the black paper that used for most albums, but it did on light-colored paper. Here's a scan of a 1965 album page with snapshots that have been glued on with mucilage: http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/cooper213/dirksen.jpg The album is falling apart now, and I'm in the process of scanning all old pix. This was a trip to Washington DC that my wife and I made. That's Sen Everett M. Dirksen (R) Illinois between us. On the right, I've turned one photograph face down to show the brown color. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> Mucilage is dark brown and thin enough to get through the slit in the >>> rubber-capped bottle. Rubber cement, at least the brand I buy, is >>> clear-to-whitish. It dries yellowish, though. Mucilage dries to a >>> dark brown. >>After you described the mucilage in the little bottle with the glue >>applied through a slot in the rubber cap, I remembered it, Tony. But I >>can't recall it as a dark brown. It was certainly lighter in color than >>dark Karo syrup. I don't really remember what color it dried to. I do >>recall that dispensing cap reminded me of a chess bishop. That's the stuff. > I can't describe the shade of brown, but it is brown. How about "amber"? > If you want to > see what color it dries to, look in an old library book. Back when > library books had little pockets glued into the book, those pockets > were glued in with mucilage. We used rubber cement in the library that I worked in, at least for on-the-spot repairs. Tech services may have indeed used mucilage, or self-adhesive pockets, or even glue sticks by then (which have the advantage of being acid-free). SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>> On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:48:26 -0500, John Varela >>>>> <OLDlamps@verizon.net> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > That's Sen Everett M. Dirksen (R) Illinois between us. On the right, > I've turned one photograph face down to show the brown color. Wow. You _are_ organized. Or you were. Was that a honeymoon trip? alan's pic sure gives some different colors for the mucilage. I wouldn't have recalled it as Le Page's. Thanks to both of you! >> Another use for mucilage was gluing photographs into albums. It >> didn't show on the black paper that used for most albums, but it did [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Wow. You _are_ organized. Or you were. Was that a honeymoon trip? It is to laugh! I happened to remember that photograph because I'm in the process of converting all old slides and prints to digital images. I've been working on this project for six months. We were married in October of 1964, and this trip was the following summer. In those days, you wrote your Senator or Representative and asked for an appointment if you were going to DC. They replied with a letter and a formal pass (wallet-sized card) with the date and time. We met with Dirksen in the Senate Majority Leader's office, and Rep Dan Rostenkowski (D) in his office. Rostenkowski was later convicted of corruption charges and spent 15 months in prison. Imagine, a Chicago Democrat charged with a crime! SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> Another use for mucilage was gluing photographs into albums. It >>> didn't show on the black paper that used for most albums, but it did [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > of corruption charges and spent 15 months in prison. Imagine, a > Chicago Democrat charged with a crime! No kidding! Rosty was already fooling the people back then? Well, now that Blago is in trouble, I am reminded of that other guy. . .was he from Inidana or Ohio? He had a permanently touseled head of hair. . .or wig. His hair was a good admixture of gray and black. Italian, I think, name began with a T? > No kidding! Rosty was already fooling the people back then? Well, now > that Blago is in trouble, I am reminded of that other guy. . .was he > from Inidana or Ohio? He had a permanently touseled head of hair. . .or > wig. His hair was a good admixture of gray and black. Italian, I > think, name began with a T? I'm having a brain stumble, but I know just who you mean -- the one with the shelf of hair and the loud suits, yes? SignatureSML Sara Lorimer filted: >> No kidding! Rosty was already fooling the people back then? Well, now >> that Blago is in trouble, I am reminded of that other guy. . .was he [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I'm having a brain stumble, but I know just who you mean -- the one with >the shelf of hair and the loud suits, yes? I keep wanting to say Paul Tsongas, but I'm almost certain that's not who you mean....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Sara Lorimer filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I keep wanting to say Paul Tsongas, but I'm almost certain that's not who you > mean....r Traficant! <http://images.google.com/images?q=traficant&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.m ozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi> SignatureSML >> Sara Lorimer filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > <http://images.google.com/images?q=traficant&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.m > ozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi> That's the one. Ohio. OK. Thanks, Sara. >>>>>> Rubber cement is clear-to-whitish, and is applied with the brush that >>>>>> comes as part of the lid of the bottle. Rubber cement can be removed [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > dark Karo syrup. I don't really remember what color it dried to. I do > recall that dispensing cap reminded me of a chess bishop. Looks like the color may have changed somewhat over the years, as can be seen in the photo showing the various permutations of Le Page's Mucilage: http://www.thecakelady.ca/lepagesglue/slideshow2_files/79.jpg I'd describe the color of LePage's when I was growing up (in the 50's) as amber. Pat Durkin wrote, in <gisa1n$oq6$1@news.albasani.net> on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:24:44 -0600: > >>> On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:48:26 -0500, John Varela > >>> <OLDlamps@verizon.net> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > dark Karo syrup. I don't really remember what color it dried to. I do > recall that dispensing cap reminded me of a chess bishop. This is the stuff I remember with that sort of slotted cap, though the brand name was LePage. <http://flickr.com/photos/misty69/2606989259/> SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >Pat Durkin wrote, in <gisa1n$oq6$1@news.albasani.net> > on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:24:44 -0600: >> After you described the mucilage in the little bottle with the glue >> applied through a slot in the rubber cap, I remembered it, Tony. But I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ><http://flickr.com/photos/misty69/2606989259/> I remember it too, from my BrE youth, but the slotted cap was red, as in somebody's (Tony's?) link. I think it was "Lepage's" rather than "LePage", though this may have been a matter of graphic design; at least that's what we read it as at the time. I also remember the slot periodically gumming itself up and having to be re-slotted with scissors. But we never called it mucilage, which is an alien term to me. It was paper glue, or gum, or simply (and context-dependently) glue. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> Pat Durkin wrote, in <gisa1n$oq6$1@news.albasani.net> >> on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:24:44 -0600: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > periodically gumming itself up and having to be re-slotted with > scissors. Yes, and I have a vivid memory of cutting my finger when doing just that. > But we never called it mucilage, which is an alien term to me. No, I've never heard the word before (and have no idea how to pronounce it). It was > paper glue, or gum, or simply (and context-dependently) glue. We always called it glue, just as we did the white stuff which came in pots with a brush attached to the lid ("Gloy"?) SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) (snipped) >>>> After you described the mucilage in the little bottle with the glue.... >>> This is the stuff I remember with that sort of slotted cap.... >> I remember it too, from my BrE youth, but the slotted cap was red.... > No, I've never heard the word before.... > We always called it glue, just as we did the white stuff which came in > pots with a brush attached to the lid ("Gloy"?) Horse hooves glue and horse tail brush. SignaturePurl Gurl -- This is to the native American poster who I believe to be a woman, but for some reason is gotten up like Groucho Marx: Excuse me? -- Margo Howard, 11/19/2008 >>> Pat Durkin wrote, in <gisa1n$oq6$1@news.albasani.net> >>> on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:24:44 -0600: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >No, I've never heard the word before (and have no idea how to pronounce it). I've been mentally reading it "mew-sill-ij", and feeling faintly uneasy due to some buried (and deliberately unexcavated) associations with bodily excretions of some kind. >It was >> paper glue, or gum, or simply (and context-dependently) glue. > >We always called it glue, just as we did the white stuff which came in >pots with a brush attached to the lid ("Gloy"?) I thought that was Cow Gum, but David, who dealt with all this stuff when he was in Adult Education, assures me that Gloy was indeed like that, and that Cow Gum, while also white and potted and spreadered, was Totally Different. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>> Pat Durkin wrote, in <gisa1n$oq6$1@news.albasani.net> >>> on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:24:44 -0600: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >No, I've never heard the word before (and have no idea how to pronounce it). I'd guess mookilage (vowel as in 'soon') or mewkilage, depending on whether you're a 'oo'er or a 'ew'er. Definitely a hard 'c' when I've heard it. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> Nick Spalding wrote: >>>>> After you described the mucilage in the little bottle with the >>>>> glue applied through a slot in the rubber cap, I remembered it, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > whether you're a 'oo'er or a 'ew'er. Definitely a hard 'c' when I've > heard it. No, the "c" is sounded as an "s". Myusilage. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>> Nick Spalding wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >No, the "c" is sounded as an "s". Myusilage. I've never heard it pronounced that way. Mind you, I don't think I've heard it at all since childhood. It's not a new word to me, but I'm beginning to wonder in what context I heard it, for we didn't use the word here for the sort of gum being discussed. COD confirms that you're right, of course. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England Robin Bignall filted: >>>>> But we never called it mucilage, which is an alien term to me. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >word here for the sort of gum being discussed. COD confirms that >you're right, of course. Perilously close to "Müeslix", a brand name for "granola with an attitude"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>> No, I've never heard the word before (and have no idea how to >>> pronounce it). [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >No, the "c" is sounded as an "s". Myusilage. I've always given it the same "c" as "mucus", to which it is related. I wonder why the pronunciations differ? SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >>>> No, I've never heard the word before (and have no idea how to >>>> pronounce it). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I've always given it the same "c" as "mucus", to which it is related. >I wonder why the pronunciations differ? I suspect it has to do with the following vowel, as for "George" and "gorge". Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > Richard Bollard wrote re "mucilage": [...] >> I've always given it the same "c" as "mucus", to which it >> is related. I wonder why the pronunciations differ? > > I suspect it has to do with the following vowel, as for > "George" and "gorge". Of course. As also in other languages: "c" before E, I, Y is "soft" = s "c" before A, O, U is "hard" = k cell = Sell cigar = Sigar cynic = Synic call = Kall cold = Kold cut = Kut Therefore: muCIlage = muSilage muCUs = muKus Naturally, there are exceptions to this general rule. Signature~~~ Reinhold [Rey] Aman ~~~ Reinhold [Rey] Aman" <aman@sonic.net> filted: >> Richard Bollard wrote re "mucilage": > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Naturally, there are exceptions to this general rule. Most notably "Celtic", where the initial letter is pronounced like a K in Dublin but like an S in Boston.... The exceptions for G are more prolific, including such common words as "give", "get" and "girl" (and on the flip side, "gaol")....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Most notably "Celtic", where the initial letter is pronounced like a K in Dublin > but like an S in Boston.... ...and Glasgow. I've never heard "Celts" pronounced as "Selts", however. Mike M (still trying to think of a clever "seltzer" gag). >> Most notably "Celtic", where the initial letter is pronounced like a K in Dublin >> but like an S in Boston.... > >...and Glasgow. > >I've never heard "Celts" pronounced as "Selts", however. I have. A Scotswoman speaking at a political meeting of sorts in Northern Ireland. "We are all 'Selts'...". The rest of her message was lost on her audience who were "Kelts", and of other labels. >Mike M (still trying to think of a clever "seltzer" gag). SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > I've never heard "Celts" pronounced as "Selts", however. The professional basketball team in Boston, Massachusetts, is called the "Celtics", pronounced "Seltics", which is often shortened to "Selts". SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >> Richard Bollard wrote re "mucilage": > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Naturally, there are exceptions to this general rule. No wonder I was uncomfortable, I just gained another wrinkle. Thanks. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. Richard Bollard: >> I wonder why the pronunciations differ? Dave Hatunen: > I suspect it has to do with the following vowel, as for "George" > and "gorge". By gorge, I think he's geot it! :-) SignatureMark Brader, Toronto, msb@vex.net "The recent explosion of tourism has ruined the planet Arrakis for me forever." -- Spider Robinson >> I remember it too, >> But we never called it mucilage, which is an alien term to me. > > No, I've never heard the word before (and have no idea how to pronounce > it). Think of a portmanteau of muesli and silage. (I _did_ previously say that school paste tasted better, now didn't I?) SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > I remember it too, from my BrE youth, but the slotted cap was red, as > in somebody's (Tony's?) link. I think it was "Lepage's" rather than [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But we never called it mucilage, which is an alien term to me. It was > paper glue, or gum, or simply (and context-dependently) glue. I agree with everything above (and particularly mucilage - which I'd guess was what a slug leaves behind - except Lepage doesn't mean anything to me. How about "Gloy"? SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk Experimental version; http://canalplan.eu > >Pat Durkin wrote, in <gisa1n$oq...@news.albasani.net> > >> I do [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > in somebody's (Tony's?) link. I think it was "Lepage's" rather than > "LePage", > But we never called it mucilage, which is an alien term to me. It was > paper glue, or gum, or simply (and context-dependently) glue. I remember that, too, from when I was in Mrs Taylor's class at Rosendale Infants School, Sep 1957. It was called "gum", and the maker was spelt "Lepage's" as I recall. >>>> I do >>>> recall that dispensing cap reminded me of a chess bishop. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Rosendale Infants School, Sep 1957. It was called "gum", and the maker > was spelt "Lepage's" as I recall. It was the graphic design that made it look like "Lepage's". On other products it made it clear that the name was LePage's. http://www.creativepro.com/files/story_images/090904_fg8.jpg Here's what the mucilage bottles looked like: http://www.creativepro.com/files/story_images/090904_fg7.jpg SignatureSkitt (AmE) > the name was LePage's. Which brings me to another preoccupation of mine: embedded capitals. Was it the Atlantic crossing that made (e.g.) le Page becomes LePage and di Maggio becomes DiMaggio? Is it a LeftPondian thing? Is it why so many Americans think that Eurostar is "EuroStar"? >> the name was LePage's. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Is it a LeftPondian thing? Is it why so many Americans think that >Eurostar is "EuroStar"? Embedded capitals, aka CamelCase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CamelCase There may be a LeftPondian thing going on to some extent, but we must not forget the Scots and the Irish with their MacDonalds, McCleans, and FitzGeralds, FitzHerberts, et al. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) BrE filted: >>> the name was LePage's. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >forget the Scots and the Irish with their MacDonalds, McCleans, and >FitzGeralds, FitzHerberts, et al. Over here we have trouble with proper names that begin with lowercase letters...we can just about handle the occasional "van der" and "de la" prefix, but a name like "ffolkes" completely screws up the system....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" R.H. Draney: > Over here we have trouble with proper names that begin with lowercase > letters...we can just about handle the occasional "van der" and "de la" > prefix, but a name like "ffolkes" completely screws up the system... And let us not fforget ffabian :-) van-de-l'Isle. SignatureMark Brader | "Must undefined behavior obey *all* the laws of physics, msb@vex.net | or is the restriction limited to time travel?" Toronto | --Heather Downs > BrE filted: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > letters...we can just about handle the occasional "van der" and "de la" prefix, > but a name like "ffolkes" completely screws up the system....r And what's with the African(?) American thing of adding "de", "la", "le", etc. to the front of forenames where they don't belong? deMike M Mike M filted: >And what's with the African(?) American thing of adding "de", "la", >"le", etc. to the front of forenames where they don't belong? > >deMike M At least one of several conflicting theories has it that "Draney" was once "du Raney"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Mike M filted: >> And what's with the African(?) American thing of adding "de", "la", [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > At least one of several conflicting theories has it that "Draney" was once "du > Raney"....r There's a town in Maryland, USA, called "Bel Air" that the locals pronounce "Blair". Tourists often get lost looking for "Blair Road". SignatureLew >And what's with the African(?) American thing of adding "de", "la", >"le", etc. to the front of forenames where they don't belong? > >deMike M At this time of year I seek refuge from AUE by watching Celebrity Big Brother. After your post that is no longer a refuge. One of this year's housemates is La Toya Jackson. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Toya_Jackson SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) BrE filted: >At this time of year I seek refuge from AUE by watching Celebrity Big Brother. >After your post that is no longer a refuge. > >One of this year's housemates is La Toya Jackson. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Toya_Jackson Had she been a boy, they would have named her "El Toyo"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >> And what's with the African(?) American thing of adding "de", "la", >> "le", etc. to the front of forenames where they don't belong? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > One of this year's housemates is La Toya Jackson. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Toya_Jackson Oh, look, I thought I was safe in here. I've managed to avoid knowing who's in there up until now. SignatureDavid >>> And what's with the African(?) American thing of adding "de", "la", >>> "le", etc. to the front of forenames where they don't belong? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Oh, look, I thought I was safe in here. I've managed to avoid knowing >who's in there up until now. How things have changed since 1984. Then, Big Brother would have been watching Peter Duncanson. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> And what's with the African(?) American thing of adding "de", "la", >>> "le", etc. to the front of forenames where they don't belong? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Oh, look, I thought I was safe in here. I've managed to avoid knowing >who's in there up until now. The other Americans are Coolio (rapper and actor), and Verne Troyer (all 2ft 8in of him) who played Mini-Me in _Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me_. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verne_Troyer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolio I won't mention the Brits because I can't remember most of their names let alone what the are "celebrated" for. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) BrE filted: >>>At this time of year I seek refuge from AUE by watching Celebrity Big Brother. >>> After your post that is no longer a refuge. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I won't mention the Brits because I can't remember most of their names let >alone what the are "celebrated" for. Troyer has already done the US version of the show...I caught a few minutes of it once; he was drunk and peeing on the furniture....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >BrE filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Troyer has already done the US version of the show...I caught a few minutes of >it once; he was drunk and peeing on the furniture....r He's been well-behaved so far. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> One of this year's housemates is La Toya Jackson. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Toya_Jackson > >Oh, look, I thought I was safe in here. I've managed to avoid knowing >who's in there up until now. I read the list somewhere. I was none the wiser. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>> One of this year's housemates is La Toya Jackson. >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Toya_Jackson >> Oh, look, I thought I was safe in here. I've managed to avoid knowing >> who's in there up until now. > > I read the list somewhere. I was none the wiser. You don't know who La Toya Jackson is? Respect. SignatureDavid >>> And what's with the African(?) American thing of adding "de", "la", >>> "le", etc. to the front of forenames where they don't belong? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Oh, look, I thought I was safe in here. I've managed to avoid knowing > who's in there up until now. I don't have that problem. I rarely know who's in there even after somebody's told me. Ms Jackson I have heard of, though. SignatureMike. >> BrE filted: >> Over here we have trouble with proper names that begin with lowercase >> letters...we can just about handle the occasional "van der" and "de [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > deMike M If the owner of the name puts those letters there, then those letters belong there. If the subculture wishes to make unique names for their children, one accepts that. A neighbor of mine named her daughter "Schuyler". I asked about the spelling, knowing there might be something special about it. Nope. "Schuyler" was right, but the mother went on to say that the male child would have the name "Schuylar" (the "a" differentiated sex. It seems she and other friends attended some kind of class in naming. Since she was just strolling by, I couldn't give her the third degree, but I found it interesting. >> BrE filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > deMike M I can't quite think what recent thread it was that follows a course parallel to this one: in a Hispanic-American subculture I was familiar with the use of "La" in front of a girl's (or young woman's) familiar designation seemed to involve a little distancing or depersonalization. Maybe some oblique empowerment? Got it: "Look at him, The Lawyer!" "Allí va. Mira La Lupe!" I remember similar prefixtures for boys and men, but only to nicknames, not "given" names: Eduardo "El Sapo", Martín "El Tuerto", Juan Manuel "El Chueco". Two different phenomena, I think. Some connection with graffitti? Posiblemente. SignatureFrank "El Topo" ess Frank ess filted: >I can't quite think what recent thread it was that follows a course >parallel to this one: in a Hispanic-American subculture I was familiar [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >nicknames, not "given" names: Eduardo "El Sapo", Martín "El Tuerto", >Juan Manuel "El Chueco". Two different phenomena, I think. It's interesting that Zorro's secret identity in the Johnston McCulley serial "The Curse of Capistrano", and his first film incarnation with Douglas Fairbanks, was simply "Diego Vega"...by the time they got to Guy Williams in the 1950s, he was "Don Diego de la Vega" every time anyone spoke of him...(likewise, there's been some inconsistency as to whether his masked persona was "Zorro" or "El Zorro"; his habit of signing his work with a single letter does nothing to clear up the matter)....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>> BrE filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Some connection with graffitti? Posiblemente. Mag sein. Someone will be along presently to explain how it works in German and Bavarian. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > And what's with the African(?) American thing of adding "de", "la", > "le", etc. to the front of forenames where they don't belong? > > deMike M Yeah, why can't they just recycle the same old names in the same old way. Creativity must be crushed at every opportunity. > >Pat Durkin wrote, in <gisa1n$oq...@news.albasani.net> > >> I do [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > in somebody's (Tony's?) link. I think it was "Lepage's" rather than > "LePage", > But we never called it mucilage, which is an alien term to me. It was > paper glue, or gum, or simply (and context-dependently) glue. I remember that, too, from when I was in Mrs Taylor's class at Rosendale Infants School, Sep 1957. It was called "gum", and the maker was spelt "Lepage's" as I recall. >> >Pat Durkin wrote, in <gisa1n$oq...@news.albasani.net> >> >> I do [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Rosendale Infants School, Sep 1957. It was called "gum", and the maker >was spelt "Lepage's" as I recall. I don't know what you used, but I would call rubber cement "gum", but I wouldn't call mucilage "gum". Even after rubber cement dries, it can be removed by rubbing a finger across it. It rolls up in little gum balls. Clean-up is easy with rubber cement because the excess is so easily removed. mucilage, on the other hand, cannot be cleaned up. Wet or dry, it remains on the paper like a stain. The excess stays there and looks ugly. The only mucilage I've used came in that bottle with the rubber cap with the slit. The only rubber cement I've used came in a can or bottle with a built-in brush in the lid. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida tony cooper wrote, in <kqd5l4dcpb0crjcuf2kitu4lubcss4vtpb@4ax.com> on Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:34:44 -0500: > >> >Pat Durkin wrote, in <gisa1n$oq...@news.albasani.net> > >> >> I do [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > with the slit. The only rubber cement I've used came in a can or > bottle with a built-in brush in the lid. Rubber cement comes in a tube like a small toothpaste tube in bicycle repair kits. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > tony cooper wrote, in <kqd5l4dcpb0crjcuf2kitu4lubcss4vtpb@4ax.com> > on Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:34:44 -0500: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Rubber cement comes in a tube like a small toothpaste tube in bicycle > repair kits. I can remember Dad or others roughing up the inner tube surface around punctures with sandpaper before applying the glue, and after a respectable moment, the patch. Some tires had a long life, but the innertubes? Not so much. The textured surface was necessary to hold the rubber cement in place, not unlike the grooves needed in the mastic when laying tile. But I don't recall him doing that after the mid 1950s. As I recall, the metal (lead?) tube was very well-used, but not kept clean. >>> The only mucilage I've used came in that bottle with the rubber cap >>> with the slit. The only rubber cement I've used came in a can or [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >1950s. As I recall, the metal (lead?) tube was very well-used, but not >kept clean. I have one of those kits in the garage. My riding lawn mower came with tubeless tires, but they don't hold air when the rims are banged. I put tubes in them, and occasionally the tubes are punctured. The kit comes in a round cardboard tube with a metal lid with a punched-out pattern that creates a roughing file. Inside the tube are patches and a tube of glue. It is cement that bonds rubber, but I would not call it "rubber cement". It's rubber glue. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida [...] >>I can remember Dad or others roughing up the inner tube surface around >>punctures with sandpaper before applying the glue, and after a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > patches and a tube of glue. It is cement that bonds rubber, but I > would not call it "rubber cement". It's rubber glue. This sounds like the standard "puncture outfit" or "puncture repair kit" carried at all times by the prudent cyclist. Even though I generally take one (or two) spare inner tubes with me to save time, I also take a puncture outfit as the last resort. These days a standard kit will contain various sizes and shapes of rubber patches (with peel-off protective cover on the sticky side), a piece of sandpaper for roughening the surface and "rubber solution" a.k.a. "vulcanising solution", which is applied to the roughened area of inner tube around the puncture and left for about 5 minutes ("touch dry") before applying the patch. Needless to say, a couple of tyre levers are also essential, as is a pump -- although small metal cylinders of compressed CO2 are often carried these days to achieve the 7-8 psi required by racing tyres. In the old days, the puncture outfit also contained a small indelible pencil (purple) or a wax crayon (yellow) for marking the hole after you'd found it, and a small tin of "French (i.e. powdered) chalk to apply to the inner tube after repair and prevent it adhering to the outer cover. It might also contain a length of replacement rubber tubing for the type of valve used back then [1]. In the days before tubeless tyres, we also used to carry a puncture repair kit for car and motorcycle tyres. This was essentially the same but with bigger and thicker patches, often a metal scourer-type thing instead of sandpaper (cf. Tony's post), and more rubber solution. The tyre levers were also bigger and stronger... The secret of successful removal and replacement of an outer cover was and remains: "Start and finish at the valve." [1] Left as a Googling exercise for the curious. SignatureLes (BrE) [...] > -- although small metal > cylinders of compressed CO2 are often carried these days to achieve the > 7-8 psi required by racing tyres. 7-8 bar (a.k.a. atmospheres), of course - a clear case of STS (surfeit of turkey syndrome). SignatureLes (BrE) >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >7-8 bar (a.k.a. atmospheres), of course - a clear case of STS (surfeit of >turkey syndrome). Yes, that sounds much more likely. My old touring bike's tires require somewhere between 100 and 115 psi (it's been rather too long since I've been in a position to need to inflate the tires) which would work out to between 6.9 and 7.9 bar. I *miss* being in good-enough shape to go for a 50-mile ride on a bike "just because". -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > [1] Left as a Googling exercise for the curious. I remember patching kits that included a tiny tray of some burnable stuff that had to be clamped to the patch and lit. I think that was for patching car innertubes. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>> The only mucilage I've used came in that bottle with the rubber cap >>>> with the slit. The only rubber cement I've used came in a can or [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >patches and a tube of glue. It is cement that bonds rubber, but I >would not call it "rubber cement". It's rubber glue. According to both the OED and Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, it is called "rubber cement". Neither the English nor the American dictionary has an entry for "rubber glue". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> The only mucilage I've used came in that bottle with the rubber cap >>>>> with the slit. The only rubber cement I've used came in a can or [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >it is called "rubber cement". Neither the English nor the American >dictionary has an entry for "rubber glue". You found that the glue used in tire patching kits has a dictionary entry? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>> The only mucilage I've used came in that bottle with the rubber >>>>> cap with the slit. The only rubber cement I've used came in a [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > it is called "rubber cement". Neither the English nor the American > dictionary has an entry for "rubber glue". It wouldn't be the first time the experts took the high spots and skipped over the lows, now, would it? I used "rubber glue" myself, for the innertube repair, and used "rubber cement" for the household item that comes with a brush in the cap of the jar. Could be regional. Or maybe temporal. >>>>>> The only mucilage I've used came in that bottle with the rubber >>>>>> cap with the slit. The only rubber cement I've used came in a [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >that comes with a brush in the cap of the jar. Could be regional. Or >maybe temporal. "Rubber solution" is what we call the stuff we use for bike puncture repairs (last time I did this was about 6 months ago). Maybe regional, maybe temporal; it was called that here in the UK 60 years ago, but whether anyone much younger than 50 mends their own punctures these days I rather wonder. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ Wood Avens wrote, in <fhaal4p72ihtbv4s3ofr8c7ad4s847d319@4ax.com> on Fri, 26 Dec 2008 19:15:04 +0000: > >>>>>> The only mucilage I've used came in that bottle with the rubber > >>>>>> cap with the slit. The only rubber cement I've used came in a [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > ago, but whether anyone much younger than 50 mends their own punctures > these days I rather wonder. That's it. Rubber cement didn't feel quite right. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >Wood Avens wrote, in <fhaal4p72ihtbv4s3ofr8c7ad4s847d319@4ax.com> > on Fri, 26 Dec 2008 19:15:04 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > >That's it. Rubber cement didn't feel quite right. A quick search of UK sites selling "puncture repair kits" found "rubber glue", "solvent", and "adhesive" as well as "rubber solution". Some kits have "self-adhesive" patches. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Wood Avens wrote, in <fhaal4p72ihtbv4s3ofr8c7ad4s847d319@4ax.com> > on Fri, 26 Dec 2008 19:15:04 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > >That's it. Rubber cement didn't feel quite right. I'm gathering from our discussion of the past several days that whether it is called rubber cement, as a civilized man calls it, rubber glue or rubber solution is largely dependent on region. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>Wood Avens wrote, in <fhaal4p72ihtbv4s3ofr8c7ad4s847d319@4ax.com> >> on Fri, 26 Dec 2008 19:15:04 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > whether it is called rubber cement, as a civilized man calls it, > rubber glue or rubber solution is largely dependent on region. Perhaps you're a sharper reader than I am, but I don't recall any sort of regional pattern emerging in terms of word choice, nor do I recall any sort of distinctions being made on the basis of the speaker being "civilized" or otherwise. Can you refresh my memory? Thank you. Signaturealan P.S. The word I remember being most commonly used was "adhesive". If "cement" was used, it was without the preceding "rubber" so as to avoid any confusion with "rubber cement", a totally different product. >>>Wood Avens wrote, in <fhaal4p72ihtbv4s3ofr8c7ad4s847d319@4ax.com> >>> on Fri, 26 Dec 2008 19:15:04 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >of distinctions being made on the basis of the speaker being "civilized" or >otherwise. Can you refresh my memory? Thank you. It was a little joke, Alan, based on the principle that my usages, along with the usages of people I respect, are always civilized, by definition of the word. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> According to both the OED and Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, >>> it is called "rubber cement". Neither the English nor the American >>> dictionary has an entry for "rubber glue". It was called rubber glue when I was growing up. >>It wouldn't be the first time the experts took the high spots and >>skipped over the lows, now, would it? I used "rubber glue" myself, for [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >ago, but whether anyone much younger than 50 mends their own punctures >these days I rather wonder. Definitely. The off-roaders I know carry puncture repair kits all the time and it's not uncommon to have a rest break so that someone can fix a tyre. Trying to find what's done the damage generally takes longer than fixing it. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary [...] > It wouldn't be the first time the experts took the high spots and > skipped over the lows, now, would it? I used "rubber glue" myself, for > the innertube repair, and used "rubber cement" for the household item > that comes with a brush in the cap of the jar. Could be regional. Or > maybe temporal. Be that as it may, I have never heard the stuff used for repairing bike punctures called anything other than "rubber solution" -- cf. these guys: <http://letoutvabien.com/2008/09/28/bicycle-accessories-0> "Puncture wrecking kit with tire levers, sandpaper to clean off an area of the inner tube around the puncture, a tube of rubber solution (vulcanising fluid), discoid and ellipsoidal patches, a ingot grater and piece of pay by check to make chalk powder (to refuse over excess rubber solution). Kits often also include a wax crayon to mark the puncture location" Hmm. Perhaps this is more convincing: <http://www.vueltausa.com/products/weldtite/tire-products/vulcanizing-rubber-solu tion.htm> <http://tinyurl.com/7rwfye> "Weldtite Vulcanizing Rubber Solution Tube (15gm) Fast drying vulcanizing rubber solution suitable for all patches except PVC" SignatureLes (BrE) >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Be that as it may, I have never heard the stuff used for repairing bike >punctures called anything other than "rubber solution" -- cf. these guys: "Rubber cement" is a fixed term for a particular adhesive product. "Rubber glue" is just two words; the first is what the second can be used on. It's like "paper glue" or "wood glue". SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >"Rubber glue" is just two words; the first is what the second can be >used on. It's like "paper glue" or "wood glue". Thank you for that, uh, explanation. It is clear as mud. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>[...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Thank you for that, uh, explanation. It is clear as mud. I think that some here will be able to muddle through it. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>[...] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >I think that some here will be able to muddle through it. I try to make my explanations clear enough that no muddling is required. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Fast drying vulcanizing rubber solution suitable for all patches > except PVC" I don't know about Tony or others in the US. I never heard of "rubber solution", though you and Katy appear to be at ease with the term. (What is Vuelta USA?) I looked at the Company info, and get no address. The firm apparently organized (or branched off from a non-US company) in 1992. That was long after car innertubes. Say, this "vulcanizing*" technology. I had come to understand that that term was used in "recapping" tires. That meant applying new tread to old tires, or "retreading" them. I suppose some retreads are still being sold, especially to truck drivers, because I still see those crocodile skins lying along the highways, where some tire has thrown a tread. I don't usually see the semi that lost its tread, so, with 18-wheelers, at least, there are enough working tires that the trucks don't go out of control. I believe recapping for auto tires is not regulated, and is therefore illegal. Now, on a trip through Mexico city, in the Merced part of town, I saw a business sign or bill board: Durkin-Merced, Vulcanizadora. What kind of business could that have been? Pat Durkin wrote, in part: > Say, this "vulcanizing*" technology. I had come to understand that > that term was used in "recapping" tires. That meant applying new [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > a business sign or bill board: Durkin-Merced, Vulcanizadora. What > kind of business could that have been? Vulcanization can be of two types -- hot or cold. Interestingly, M-W Online describes only the cold type (using a chemical process), while AHD4 defines it as a process using heat and pressure, together with other things. In another message I mentioned remembering the hot process method. It seems not to be used much these days. SignatureSkitt (AmE) [...] <http://www.vueltausa.com/products/weldtite/tire-products/vulcanizing-rubber-solu tion.htm> >> <http://tinyurl.com/7rwfye> >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > address. The firm apparently organized (or branched off from a non-US > company) in 1992. That was long after car innertubes. I just fished it out using Google to demonstrate the use of "rubber solution". Here's another reference where they offer a bicycle puncture repair kit containing "vulcanising fluid": <http://www.gbcycles.co.uk/eshop.asp?wci=product&wce=PRKTT01&desc=TIP+TOP+TT02+PU NCTURE+REPAIR+KIT> <http://tinyurl.com/75hyr7> "Tip Top TT02 Puncture Repair Kit £2.99 Probably the most effective permanent puncture repair kit in the world. Patches have double scalloped edges to ensure excellent bonding and 100% vulcanisation. Feathered edges ensure a smooth repair surface and prevent a bump or bulge being created when the tube is inflated. Unsurpassed quality and reliable patches developed from high speed and industrial applications. Kit includes four 25 mm diameter and one 50 x 25 mm tube patches, vulcanising solution, valve tube and emery paper." > Say, this "vulcanizing*" technology. I had come to understand that that > term was used in "recapping" tires. That meant applying new tread to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > don't go out of control. I believe recapping for auto tires is not > regulated, and is therefore illegal. Vulcanisation is a chemical process for cross-linking rubber polymer molecules. The original method involved heat and sulfur and was invented by Charles Goodyear. These days there are several methods available, some hot and some cold (i.e. ambient temperature). The Wikipedia article is here: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcanization> I remember the word "retread" from years ago, which refers to a tyre given a new tread (attached by a vulcanisation process) after the original tread had worn down. I believe they were limited for use below certain speeds and their only advantage was being cheaper than new tyres. Lorries (a.k.a. trucks) used to use tyres with much more rubber on them than car tyres; these could then by given a new lease of life as "recuts" -- in other words, once the original tread had worn down, a new tread was cut in the rubber that was left. > Now, on a trip through Mexico city, in the Merced part of town, I saw a > business sign or bill board: Durkin-Merced, Vulcanizadora. What kind > of business could that have been? They knew you were coming, they knew you owned a Mercedes, and they knew you would have a puncture. Magic mushrooms (and nails on the road) can work wonders. SignatureLes (BrE) >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > saw a business sign or bill board: Durkin-Merced, Vulcanizadora. > What kind of business could that have been? I object to calling just any old any make-it-stick technology "vulcanize" unless it involves application of (relatively) intense heat. All the trouble I went to, to learn and remember "Vulcan" and now it means freaking "glue"? No way. I "helped" my Dad use the patching kit that included a clamp and a reservoir to contain some flammable substance that burned like un-compressed gunpowder, vulcanizing the patch and the inner tube into a continuous entity. Lots of difference from sticking two pieces of rubber together with some cool "glue". Hmph. Another thing I learned, maybe from The National Recappers Alliance, is that the 'gator skins (wouldn't croc skins be from a hemisphere different from ours?) on the highways are much more likely to have been shed from "new" tires; the /recapped/ tires have been treated to much more intense and individualized processes than your first-production tires. "Retreading", it seems to me, came to refer to the shady and illegal practice of cutting new grooves into a bald or near-bald tire tread. I don't know if recapping passenger car tires is prohibited now, but in the late 1960s I ran a few sports car road races on Goodyear racing tires recapped in the popular Dunlop R-5 tread pattern and a slightly longer-wearing compound than the original tires bore. Finished second in class and seventh overall in a three-hour "enduro" race at Willow Springs: other, much faster cars kept stopping for fuel and fresh tires, while we just tiddled around and around in the MGB tourer. Pretty clear your "Durkin-Merced, Vulcanizadora" is a branch of Durkin's, who Vulcanize. I hope they used massive quantities of heat. SignatureFrank Sheffield San Diego CA USA ... > I object to calling just any old any make-it-stick technology > "vulcanize" unless it involves application of (relatively) intense > heat. Sulfur. It has to have sulfur. > All the trouble I went to, to learn and remember "Vulcan" and > now it means freaking "glue"? No way. I "helped" my Dad use the > patching kit that included a clamp and a reservoir to contain some > flammable substance that burned like un-compressed gunpowder, Containing sulfur, I'll bet. > vulcanizing the patch and the inner tube into a continuous entity. ... > Another thing I learned, maybe from The National Recappers Alliance, > is that the 'gator skins (wouldn't croc skins be from a hemisphere > different from ours?) ... Not to be predictable or anything, but the American crocodile, Orinoco crocodile, Morelet's or Mexican crocodile, and Cuban crocodile all live in our hemisphere. A small population of American crocodiles still lives in the tip of Florida. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_crocodile -- Jerry Friedman > ... > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Containing sulfur, I'll bet. The flammable substance doesn't make direct contact with the rubber; it's just there to provide heat. The kit I have has a tin plate that you clamp on. On the back of the tin plate is a kind of blotting-paper-like pad impregnated with something like potassium nitrate, I think. When you light it, it's more of a fast smoulder than a flame. If any sulphur is part of the vulcanizing reaction in the rubber, then it must be sulphur that was already in there. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: > > ... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > pad impregnated with something like potassium nitrate, I think. When you > light it, it's more of a fast smoulder than a flame. That's a clever way of providing the right amount of heat. > If any sulphur is part of the vulcanizing reaction in the rubber, then > it must be sulphur that was already in there. I suppose it could be, since tires are made of vulcanized rubber. I can't see how it can become more vulcanized just by heating, though. Maybe some of the sulfur atoms break their bonds and rebond between the original material and the patch, and that's called vulcanizing the pieces together. Or something? Is Charles Goodyear remembered only as the eponym of a company? (Possibly, since I'd forgotten that he invented vulcanization.) According to <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcanization>, substances other than sulfur are sometimes used. -- Jerry Friedman > .... > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > live in our hemisphere. A small population of American crocodiles > still lives in the tip of Florida. I believe they are protected, unlike the local alligators. SignatureDavid >> Not to be predictable or anything, but the American crocodile, Orinoco >> crocodile, Morelet's or Mexican crocodile, and Cuban crocodile all >> live in our hemisphere. A small population of American crocodiles >> still lives in the tip of Florida. > >I believe they are protected, unlike the local alligators. Our local alligators, and even visiting ones, are protected in Florida. They are no longer on the "endangered" list, but a permit must be obtained from the state to kill them. The number of permits granted is expanded or contracted each year according to the estimated alligator population. A homeowner can't legally kill one unless the homeowner is in direct danger at the time. A homeowner with an alligator in the yard is required to call an authorized alligator trapper. Usually, unwanted gators are trapped and moved or trapped and killed elsewhere. We use the term "trapped" to describe capturing an alligator, but no physical trap is involved. I recently watched a trapper remove a small gator from a pond in an industrial park. He used a fishing pole and a dead chicken as bait. When the gator bit on the bait, he maneuvered the gator to the shore, pounced on it, taped the jaws, tied it up, and threw it in a truck. It took over an hour. I was surprised that a fishing line was enough to manu ever the gator to shore. There's talk of loosening the laws on who can kill gators, but there would be problems in doing so. Killing a gator is not easy. It's not a good idea to allow a homeowner to start blasting a gator with the family gun. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Be that as it may, I have never heard the stuff used for repairing bike > punctures called anything other than "rubber solution" -- cf. these guys: > > <http://letoutvabien.com/2008/09/28/bicycle-accessories-0> Well, that looks like a machine translation (presumably from French, in view of the site name, or perhaps from something already a translation). > "Puncture wrecking kit This is the first thing that struck me as weird; it looks to me like a kit for damaging the holes in your inner tubes. But I was willing to believe it could be a British usage. > with tire levers, Also unfamiliar, but I get the idea and I don't have a word for them myself. (When I had a bicycle I always just used screwdrivers.) > sandpaper to clean off an area of the inner tube around the > puncture, a tube of rubber solution (vulcanising fluid), discoid Might be a word, but not one I've ever heard. I'd say "round" or "circular". > and ellipsoidal patches, For me "ellipsoidal" only refers to a stretched or flattened sphere, like the Earth. For a flat patch, "elliptical" is the word. > a ingot grater To me an ingot is a sizable bar of cast metal intended to be either sold for its value (e.g. gold) or else reprocessed somehow (e.g. iron to be melted down for recasting); it certainly doesn't go with "grater". The article is wrong too. > and piece of pay by check And this is the piece de resistance -- it makes no sense at all. > to make chalk powder (to refuse over excess rubber solution). Presumably "to refuse" means "to dust". Now I could be wrong, but in view of all this, I don't think this web site can be considered an entirely reliable source on matters of English usage. That said, while I've used those repair kits myself, I don't remember having any term for the type of glue they contain. I do agree with the people who said that "rubber cement" was something else, bit I haven't used that for quite a few years either. SignatureMark Brader "You can't [compare] computer memory and recall Toronto with human memory and recall. It's comparing msb@vex.net apples and bicycles." -- Ed Knowles My text in this article is in the public domain. >> Be that as it may, I have never heard the stuff used for repairing bike >> punctures called anything other than "rubber solution" -- cf. these guys: [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >people who said that "rubber cement" was something else, bit I haven't >used that for quite a few years either. That is indeed a brilliant piece of mistranslation in places! Heaven knows where they got some of the words from. It looks like a translation of a translation of a translation. However, for most of the words, you can see a link to the originals, which were presumably French at some stage in their lives. Unfortunately, the French do seem to delight in retaining (and even introducing) very technical-sounding words for everyday things. As someone with some grasp of their language (albeit little better than what I learned at school), on those rare occasions when I have needed to compose something in French, and needed to guess a word which was not in my vocabulary, there was a good chance that a 'frenchified' version of an obscure technical English word would be understood, and was frequently correct. Rather than re-translating "ellipsoidal" as "elliptical", I think "oval" would be the word the average cyclist would use. I can even explain "refuse". BrE "dustman" = "refuse collector". SignatureIan >> Be that as it may, I have never heard the stuff used for repairing bike >> punctures called anything other than "rubber solution" -- cf. these guys: >> >> <http://letoutvabien.com/2008/09/28/bicycle-accessories-0> > > [A scholarly annalysis of the above, ending with:] > Now I could be wrong, but in view of all this, I don't think this web site > can be considered an entirely reliable source on matters of English usage. Er - I had noticed, which is why I wrote: > Hmm. Perhaps this is more convincing: (which you snipped). > That said, while I've used those repair kits myself, I don't remember > having any term for the type of glue they contain. I do agree with the > people who said that "rubber cement" was something else, bit I haven't > used that for quite a few years either. It is (and to my knowledge always has been) called "rubber solution" in the UK. Trust me. SignatureLes (BrE) >>> Be that as it may, I have never heard the stuff used for repairing bike >>> punctures called anything other than "rubber solution" -- cf. these guys: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >It is (and to my knowledge always has been) called "rubber solution" in the >UK. Trust me. Seconded. SignatureIan > It is (and to my knowledge always has been) called "rubber solution" in the > UK. Trust me. FWIW, I remember that it was called "solution" in Swedish when I was a boy and sometimes needed to repair an inner tube. I don't remember if the "solution" was English, but it may well have been. >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Fast drying vulcanizing rubber solution suitable for all patches except PVC" I was hoping we could limit the discussion to a comparison between two terms, but if "rubber solution" is widely used, I suppose a three-way comparison is necessary. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>> The only mucilage I've used came in that bottle with the rubber >>>>>> cap with the slit. The only rubber cement I've used came in a [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >that comes with a brush in the cap of the jar. Could be regional. Or >maybe temporal. I don't recall hearing "rubber glue" in any part of the East Coast or the West Coast of America from the years 1950 to 1990, so could it be a midWest phrase? You say you've heard it and used it, but I don't remember where you are you from, Pat, so perhaps you'll be good enough to remind me. I'd also like to see a citation from a reputable dictionary that the phrase "rubber glue" is or ever was in widespread use. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>>> The only mucilage I've used came in that bottle with the rubber >>>>>>> cap with the slit. The only rubber cement I've used came in a [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > I'd also like to see a citation from a reputable dictionary that the > phrase "rubber glue" is or ever was in widespread use. I am from Wisconsin, Chuck. But, while I used "rubber glue" as a term in my post, I am not at all sure that I used it "back in the day". I never used the tire-repair product, for bicycles or cars. I think I chose to use "rubber glue" in contradistinction to "rubber cement", which product I did use. But there I am, stuck in the muddle--what would I have called the product if I had repaired tires with it? Dope? I never used something my older brother used and called "dope". I can recall the acetone fumes, but it seems to me that that stuff, used in assembling model airplanes, was both a filler and a base paint, and probably served as an adhesive, too. (Dope came in a metal (lead?) tube, as I recall, and got all over everything Dick touched.) >I am from Wisconsin, Chuck. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >(Dope came in a metal (lead?) tube, as I recall, and got all over >everything Dick touched.) Ah, dope is a different animal again, as is balsa cement. These two are expatiated upon in http://tiny.cc/ccZke (scroll down for dope). SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> I am from Wisconsin, Chuck. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Ah, dope is a different animal again, as is balsa cement. These two > are expatiated upon in http://tiny.cc/ccZke (scroll down for dope). Wow! The straight dope on all kinds of dope. Thanks. Wood Avens filted: >>I am from Wisconsin, Chuck. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Ah, dope is a different animal again, as is balsa cement. These two >are expatiated upon in http://tiny.cc/ccZke (scroll down for dope). Have we got to "mastic" yet?...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Wood Avens filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Have we got to "mastic" yet?...r We'll chew on it for a while, and get back to you. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida [...] > Ah, dope is a different animal again, as is balsa cement. These two > are expatiated upon in http://tiny.cc/ccZke (scroll down for dope). I wonder if that dope is so called as a comment in the early days of flying on acetone's "glue-sniffing" effect. (Anybody know how Follett is, BTW?) But this brings me to "banana oil". Before I read Wodehouse ("wood", not "woad", IMO), it meant only clear aircraft dope to me; but he uses it to mean "nonsense". Do we know why? SignatureMike. > [...] >> Ah, dope is a different animal again, as is balsa cement. These two [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > flying on acetone's "glue-sniffing" effect. (Anybody know how Follett > is, BTW?) Still alive, it would appear: his web site was updated only last week with news that "Ice" is to become a tv mini-series. [..] SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> [...] >>> Ah, dope is a different animal again, as is balsa cement. These two [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >[..] His most recent posting that I can find via Google Groups was on 4 Aug this year, in uk.people.silversurfers: http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.people.silversurfers/msg/83cde0c599da7ed7?hl=en SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> [...] >>>> Ah, dope is a different animal again, as is balsa cement. These two [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >year, in uk.people.silversurfers: >http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.people.silversurfers/msg/83cde0c599da7ed7?hl=en He no-archives. He's active elsewhere. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary Mike Lyle filted: >But this brings me to "banana oil". Before I read Wodehouse ("wood", not >"woad", IMO), it meant only clear aircraft dope to me; but he uses it to >mean "nonsense". Do we know why? Not an ultimate answer, but the phrase was common with that meaning in the 1920s....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Mike Lyle filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Not an ultimate answer, but the phrase was common with that meaning > in the 1920s....r I knew another phrase: "the straight dope", meaning best, most reliable information. Never heard "dope" as describing anything that came in a tube. Bit of a dopey use, my view. Much as I dislike "glue" usurping "vulcanize", I must defend its established presence in tubes. As a balsa-model builder in the mid- and late-40s, my "airplane dope" came in small bottles* marked "Testor" and was colored for "solid models" and clear for the kind you covered a stringer/template frame with paper ("flying models"). The glue was in tubes, also marked "Testor". * Until my friend Johnny-across-the-lot** gave me a bigger jar that his father brought from his job as manager of the Santa Ana airport, a jar of genuine airplane dope in Piper Cub yellow, used on real airplanes. Suddenly everything newly built was PC yellow; sooner or later, everthing else, too. ** The "lot" was a walnut grove of about half-a-dozen prolific trees and a pumping station with corrugated iron roof. SignatureFrank Sheffield San Diego CA USA <snip> >>>> According to both the OED and Merriam-Webster's Collegiate >>>> Dictionary, it is called "rubber cement". Neither the English nor [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >I am from Wisconsin, Chuck. I'll try to remember. If I can find some associative rules for Pat Durkin and cheese, I'll have it. Anything can work and the more I have, the better, I've been taught. "Pat cheese down" is the best I can come up with at the moment. >But, while I used "rubber glue" as a term in my post, I am not at all >sure that I used it "back in the day". I never used the tire-repair [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >(Dope came in a metal (lead?) tube, as I recall, and got all over >everything Dick touched.) This is the first mention of "dope", the clear, acetone-based product plastic model makers use. Yes, it comes in metal tubes and can be difficult to remove from the fingers or from anything else. The best removers consist of pure acetone. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>>> household item that comes with a brush in the cap of the jar. >>>> Could be regional. Or maybe temporal. >> I am from Wisconsin, Chuck. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "Pat cheese down" is the best I can come up with at the moment. "Get your cheese down pat". That ought to do it. >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > "Get your cheese down pat". That ought to do it. How about "I learned that cheesy grin off pat"? SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> <snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >How about "I learned that cheesy grin off pat"? That's a fourth. Thank you, Robin, although since I never say "off [someone]", it may not stick. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > "Get your cheese down pat". That ought to do it. "Wise can sin, Pat Dur-Kin" is a third. When inserting a fact into memory, I was taught that the more associations that can be made, the better, and that it actually helps the memory process if they are silly, rather than mundane. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> <snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > associations that can be made, the better, and that it actually helps > the memory process if they are silly, rather than mundane. Forget the cheese, chuckee. STS hits me before all others: How did Wiscon sin boys? Stole a new brass key. I know a lot of people associate Wisconsin with cheese, but we have had to be defensive. California now makes more cheese, and we are in a mighty struggle (with the help of the other Great Lakes states) to keep CA from taking all our fresh water (so they can grow alfalfa and continue their overproduction of milk and milk products. The intervening mountain states have all caved.) > I know a lot of people associate Wisconsin with cheese, but we have had to > be defensive. California now makes more cheese, and we are in a mighty > struggle (with the help of the other Great Lakes states) to keep CA from > taking all our fresh water (so they can grow alfalfa and continue their > overproduction of milk and milk products. The intervening mountain states > have all caved.) Maybe things have changed, but when I moved from California to Madison for graduate school at UW in the early 80's, I was amazed at the lack of variety of cheeses in the local supermarkets. Whereas a lowly California Safeway or Lucky store carried edam, gruyere, teleme jack, mozzarella, gouda, etc as stock items, the Madison supermarkets carried only American, something called "Brick" (which was pretty much like American), maybe Swiss, and (cringe) mild cheddar --- if I wanted anything else, I'd have to seek out a "gourmet" shop. I also recall asking for Tabasco sauce for my eggs, and having waitresses look at me askance while they informed me that the best they could do was "A-1 Sauce" . . . It was during my three years there that I seriously honed my cooking skills, often making the 3 hour drive to Chicago for indredients which were "exotic" in Madison, but which had been commonplace in the SF Bay Area . . . >> I know a lot of people associate Wisconsin with cheese, but we have >> had to be defensive. California now makes more cheese, and we are [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > cheddar --- if I wanted anything else, I'd have to seek out a > "gourmet" shop. (Snipped irrelevant comments about waitresses, etc. Typical metropolitan booshwa.) Well, yes. Things have changed somewhat. But you can still find some of your ugh stuff, if you look for it. As for brick. . .I don't know what you tasted, but I have only known it as a variety of bierkase, and that was never-never-never reminiscent of "American"*. That bierkase was a pretty strong stinky cheese, comparable to limburger. Hmm. Makes me wonder what stores you shopped in. Funny thing. Even small towns had bierkase and limburger, but that was back in the '50s. Yeah. Before supermarkets. From: lynnescountrykitchen.net/cheese/cheese.html : "BRICK Also known as Bierkase or beer cheese. An American firm cheese. Yellow colored and more pungent than Cheddar. Great on sandwiches with rye bread. BIERKASE Semi-soft, with a pungent aroma rivaling Limburger." Bierkase, like limburger, was most often packaged in foil. It kind of kept the beast contained. It was a kind of blond cheese, cream-colored, you know. The brick came in shades of yellow, generally lighter than our colored cheddar. I think California got tired of importing Wisconsin and New York cheeses, so they set about making their own. (You don't think Californios would admit to eating anything from the heartland, do you? No. They wouldn't label it as Wisconsin cheese. The small cheesemakers here have sent their children to CA to show them how to make cheese.) >>> I know a lot of people associate Wisconsin with cheese, but we have >>> had to be defensive. California now makes more cheese, and we are [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > label it as Wisconsin cheese. The small cheesemakers here have sent their > children to CA to show them how to make cheese.) Well, maybe "Brick" cheese *should* have been sharp and pungent (and maybe it was back in the 50's), but what I remember in the 80's was bland and rubbery (don't recall what supermarkets I shopped at in Madison). Perhaps over the years things blanded down. I recall having "Mongolian Beef" at a Madison Chinese restaurant which tasted like oridinary beef stew, even though it had been marked "hot and spicy" on the menu. When I complained to the waitress, she said, "Oh we used to cook it hot and spicy, but nobody liked it that way" . . . And you're right, revealing a Wisconsin origin of a cheese out here in California is *not* a selling point . . . <snip> >I also recall asking for Tabasco sauce for my eggs, and >having waitresses look at me askance while they informed me that the best >they could do was "A-1 Sauce" . . . Good man. I can't do without Tabasco sauce, myself, especially on tuna fish. >It was during my three years there that I seriously honed my cooking skills, >often making the 3 hour drive to Chicago for indredients which were "exotic" >in Madison, but which had been commonplace in the SF Bay Area . . . We're lucky to have Tesco stores in the Dublin area, which have a good variety of foods. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> <snip> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >continue their overproduction of milk and milk products. The >intervening mountain states have all caved.) Some Easterners will tell you we associate your state with cheese, but we also associate it with the centre, more or less, of a thousand mile diameter circle of boredom, as you probably know. Whether this association derives from ignorance or not doesn't matter, for Wisconsin is historically, firmly and forever embedded, for many Easterners and Californians, either in the fly-over zone or in the sleep-through zone when taking the train. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:49:46 -0600, "Pat Durkin" <durk183@sbc.com> >>>>>> I am from Wisconsin, Chuck. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Easterners and Californians, either in the fly-over zone or in the > sleep-through zone when taking the train. Oh, I think you and alan should exchange notes on how bored you got. Nothing bores me more than comments from some snobs, or other overly judgmental characters. >> Pat Durkin wrote, in <gisa1n$oq6$1@news.albasani.net> >> on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:24:44 -0600: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > periodically gumming itself up and having to be re-slotted with > scissors. "No brush, no cap, no cork, no mess." http://www.creativepro.com/files/story_images/090904_fg7.jpg >>> Rubber cement is clear-to-whitish, and is applied with the brush that >>> comes as part of the lid of the bottle. Rubber cement can be removed [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What are you saying "no" to? Where are we in disagreement? I was saying "no" to white, because I know rubber cement as yellow. When I got out the bottle (or jar) of yellow cement I discovered that the can I had bought (when there was no thinner at the store with which to stretch the yellow rubber cement) as backup is white. So noted in the paragraph. But I failed to go back and remove all the nos. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>>> I think of tape when I hear "adhesive" and a paste or a liquid when >>>> I hear "glue". [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >wounds, avoiding stapling and stitches, which might pull out or cause >allergic reactions, etc. Anyway, what a godsend! It is the acetone, which is also an excellent, industrial-strength cleaning agent in bottled form, that gets kids high if they accidently or purposefully sniff it. People involved with ship modeling will be familiar with what I called glue speeds. Modeler's glue is available in normal drying speeds, fast and extra fast speeds. This variety and more are essential when building an intricate model. Bonding the individual planks that comprise the hull requires a fast speed glue, for example, whereas fixtures on the deck that need sliding around for a few seconds to best locate them require a slower speed. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Pat Durkin: > The superglue infamously used to glue some guy's penis to his belly (or > leg) is pretty dangerous... A scene in Spider Robinson's novel "Night of Power" takes this a step further. > I suppose, nowadays, it is used in many surgeries to close > wounds, avoiding stapling and stitches, which might pull out or cause > allergic reactions, etc. Anyway, what a godsend! I understand that's what it was invented for. SignatureMark Brader | It's practically impossible to keep two separate databases Toronto | in step for any length of time. That's true even when one msb@vex.net | of the "databases" is reality itself. -- Andrew Koenig > Pat Durkin: >> The superglue infamously used to glue some guy's penis to his belly [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I understand that's what it was invented for. We were using a variety of it in assembling microfiche readers, in about 1978. Or, rather, someone was using it to affix decals, or something. Anyway, that was when I first found out about it. Stuck two fingers together lightly, and it took 2 days to grow enough skin under the glue so I could pull them apart without anguish. (I once got my tongue stuck to a metal pipe. . .all in the interest of science, folk.) >>ObUsage: "Mighty Mendit is not a glue, but a flexible bonding agent..." > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >(protein-based?) adhesives; resins like epoxy and water-catalyzed >polymer adhesives like cyanoacrylates are presumably also excluded. Who'd want to pay $20 for a bottle of glue? But flexible bonding agent... SignatureJohn not milk, but a highly nutritious suspension of vital nutrients in purified water... not available in stores. >>>ObUsage: "Mighty Mendit is not a glue, but a flexible bonding agent..." >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Who'd want to pay $20 for a bottle of glue? But flexible bonding > agent... Cheap at twice the price! Plus, they will actually give you _three_ bottles of glue, and one of them is a different kind -- or at least has a different label. And you get to be on every direct-marketing list from now until the heat death of the universe. Irresistible! Operators are standing by! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>ObUsage: "Mighty Mendit is not a glue, but a flexible bonding agent..." >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >label. And you get to be on every direct-marketing list from now until the >heat death of the universe. Irresistible! Operators are standing by! I haven't attempted to order this product, but offers like this often require you to pay separate shipping and handling charges for each "free" item. That charge returns them their cost of product, the mailing charge, plus a significant mark-up. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>ObUsage: "Mighty Mendit is not a glue, but a flexible bonding agent..." >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > "free" item. That charge returns them their cost of product, the > mailing charge, plus a significant mark-up. What are you, against free enterprise? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. [ ... ] > > I haven't attempted to order this product, but offers like this often > > require you to pay separate shipping and handling charges for each > > "free" item. That charge returns them their cost of product, the > > mailing charge, plus a significant mark-up. > > What are you, against free enterprise? Doesn't sound all that free to me. SignatureBob Lieblich Order my next package of posts and receive a free gift > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Doesn't sound all that free to me. Not "free" as in gratis, "free" as in "enough rope". SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >[ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Doesn't sound all that free to me. Free gift enterprise, then. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> Frank ess wrote, i part: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > The guy that does the TV advertisement for that product is almost, > almost, as annoying as Billy Mays. But he doesn't hold a candle to Ron Popeil. Almost 50 years of things like "Set it. And forget it." My dad got one of the "pocket fisherman" thingies, back in the '50s. They are stillb being sold today. But I don't hear anyone recommending them for auto emergency kits. Pat Durkin filted: >But he doesn't hold a candle to Ron Popeil. Almost 50 years of things >like "Set it. And forget it." My dad got one of the "pocket fisherman" >thingies, back in the '50s. They are stillb being sold today. But I >don't hear anyone recommending them for auto emergency kits. Perhaps not, but I still own my original "Amazing Vegematic" from the late '60s...that was when his company was still Popeil, before it became Ronco.... Last time I saw Ron, I think he was pushing food dehydrators....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" On 16 Dec 2008, tony cooper wrote > OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small > square of cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" > and curls her lip at the term "wash rag". Some stores carry > them as "wash cloths". European hotels don't seem to supply > these things. When traveling overseas, I always took one along > because, to me, it's essential for shaving. "Face cloth" for me; "flannel" for my wife. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > >>> And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that comes out of the > >>> spigot....r [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > fresh, minty, breath. Then I shower. Then I return to the sink, soak > a face cloth* in hot water and apply it to my face, then shave. I brush my teeth after breakfast. Mugs of tea just don't taste right if they follow minty toothpaste. Usually I have my tea, then shower, then clean my teeth, then get dressed. I daren't get dressed sooner because of the risk of toothpaste-related accidents. I don't clean my teeth in the shower because of water consumption. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary <snip> >OK...some obAue in here. My family always called that small square of >cloth a "wash rag". My wife calls it a "face cloth" and curls her lip >at the term "wash rag". Some stores carry them as "wash cloths". >European hotels don't seem to supply these things. When traveling >overseas, I always took one along because, to me, it's essential for >shaving. If I've ever heard "wash rag" in America, it was probably in West by God Virginia. As for face cloth, that is strictly a girly term, if I'm not mistaken. Wash clothes can be difficult to find in Europe, making me wonder how most natives keep themselves clean. I buy them when I can find them or I get a supply sent over from America. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > If I've ever heard "wash rag" in America, it was probably in West by > God Virginia. As for face cloth, that is strictly a girly term, if I'm > not mistaken. I think "face cloth" is a marketing term. > Wash clothes can be difficult to find in Europe, making me wonder how > most natives keep themselves clean. I buy them when I can find them or > I get a supply sent over from America. I can't imagine why you would have a problem finding face cloths in Europe. There do seem to be plenty about. Try marks and Spencer, if you're really having trouble. I don't use a wash cloth myself. I generally find that I can wash myself better using my hands. Fran >> If I've ever heard "wash rag" in America, it was probably in West by >> God Virginia. As for face cloth, that is strictly a girly term, if I'm [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I don't use a wash cloth myself. I generally find that I can wash myself >better using my hands. Roxi Redmond, from my late teen years, convinced me that it is impossible to get one's ears clean, for one thing, using the macho-man, G.I. method of washing with a bar of soap only, which I had been doing until then. Thanks to her, I've managed to keep myself reasonably clean ever since. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> If I've ever heard "wash rag" in America, it was probably in West by >>> God Virginia. As for face cloth, that is strictly a girly term, if I'm [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > been doing until then. Thanks to her, I've managed to keep myself > reasonably clean ever since. Rather more than I, for one, needed to know. I don't use soap, since I suffer from eczema. My dermatologist said that soap is too drying, so I use various kinds of shower gel. She said that, most of the time, water is enough to keep your skin clean. Fran >>>> If I've ever heard "wash rag" in America, it was probably in West by >>>> God Virginia. As for face cloth, that is strictly a girly term, if I'm [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >use various kinds of shower gel. She said that, most of the time, water >is enough to keep your skin clean. As I aged my skin also got dryer. That is why I no longer wash with ordinary soap but with "Silcock's Base Cream". Perhaps your gels are similar. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> If I've ever heard "wash rag" in America, it was probably in West by >>>>> God Virginia. As for face cloth, that is strictly a girly term, if I'm [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > ordinary soap but with "Silcock's Base Cream". Perhaps your gels are > similar. Possibly so; I once absentmindedly washed my hair with the gel instead of my shampoo. My hair looked greasy when it dried, because, I would guess, of the moisturisers in the gel. an Fr >>>>>> If I've ever heard "wash rag" in America, it was probably in West by >>>>>> God Virginia. As for face cloth, that is strictly a girly term, if I'm [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >an >Fr I'm sure mine wouldn't work for hair. It doesn't work if cleaning eyeglasses, either. For eyeglasses I use the lather from ordinary hand soap. For hair I use Head & Shoulders for normal hair. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >If I've ever heard "wash rag" in America, it was probably in West by >God Virginia. You hear it Indiana. You hear it as "warsh cloth" from some Hoosiers, but not this one. >As for face cloth, that is strictly a girly term, if I'm >not mistaken. My wife is quite girly. >Wash clothes can be difficult to find in Europe, That's because most Europeans wash clothes in whatever they put on that morning. >making me wonder how >most natives keep themselves clean. I buy them when I can find them or >I get a supply sent over from America. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > > If I've ever heard "wash rag" in America, it was probably in West by > > God Virginia. > > You hear it Indiana. You hear it as "warsh cloth" from some Hoosiers, > but not this one. It was standard in my family. We lived in mostly Iowa, Oklahoma, and Missouri. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> > If I've ever heard "wash rag" in America, it was probably in West by >> > God Virginia. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >It was standard in my family. We lived in mostly Iowa, Oklahoma, and >Missouri. "Warsh" may be standard in the mid-West, then? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> If I've ever heard "wash rag" in America, it was probably in West >>>> by God Virginia. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > "Warsh" may be standard in the mid-West, then? Not standard. Just occasionally heard. > >> On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:09:41 +0000, Chuck Riggs > <chriggs@eircom.net> >> wrote: > > > >> > If I've ever heard "wash rag" in America, it was probably in > >> > West by God Virginia. > >> You hear it Indiana. You hear it as "warsh cloth" from some > >> Hoosiers, but not this one. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "Warsh" may be standard in the mid-West, then? I gather I was unclear. "Wash rag" is what I was referring to. I have heard people say "warsh", but it's not all that common locally. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> >> On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:09:41 +0000, Chuck Riggs >> <chriggs@eircom.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I gather I was unclear. "Wash rag" is what I was referring to. I have > heard people say "warsh", but it's not all that common locally. As a youth I had to consciously try to learn not to say "warsh", which I had apparently picked up from my midwest-born mother but which did not go down well among my SoCal peers. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> >> On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:09:41 +0000, Chuck Riggs >>> <chriggs@eircom.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >apparently picked up from my midwest-born mother but which did not go down >well among my SoCal peers. That's interesting, for I never found it in any way offensive. In fact, it has a pleasant sound to my ear. That may be because of the person I associate it with, though. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> >> On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:09:41 +0000, Chuck Riggs >>>> <chriggs@eircom.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > fact, it has a pleasant sound to my ear. That may be because of the > person I associate it with, though. Kids are funny about other kids who talk funny. In any event, SoCal is a veritable cauldron of dialect leveling. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>> >> On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:09:41 +0000, Chuck Riggs >>>>> <chriggs@eircom.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Kids are funny about other kids who talk funny. In any event, SoCal is a >veritable cauldron of dialect leveling. Are you referring to the Los Angeles area, for I found the patois of the San Diego residents I came into occasional contact with on the job to be monotonous? Then again, Irish people often have trouble distinguishing one very different American accent from another, so I, being an East Coast man, may be lumping all SoCal accents together, never being long enough in San Diego to pick up the subtle differences. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>> >> On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:09:41 +0000, Chuck Riggs >>>>>> <chriggs@eircom.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > never being long enough in San Diego to pick up the subtle > differences. By a "cauldron" I meant a melting pot: the differences among dialects tend to get ironed out and everybody -- at least everybody born there -- talks more or less the same version of General American, give or take one or two vowels. (I seem to have one vowel more than some of my contemporaries from greater L.A.) SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>>>> >> On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:09:41 +0000, Chuck Riggs >>>>>>> <chriggs@eircom.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >vowels. (I seem to have one vowel more than some of my contemporaries from >greater L.A.) Is Joni Mitchell's accent typical in L.A.? I'm trying to establish a standard we all know to which other SoCal accents can be compared. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >>By a "cauldron" I meant a melting pot: the differences among dialects tend >>to get ironed out and everybody -- at least everybody born there -- talks [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Is Joni Mitchell's accent typical in L.A.? I'm trying to establish a >standard we all know to which other SoCal accents can be compared. Only if "L.A." stands for "Lethbridge, Alberta"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Only if "L.A." stands for "Lethbridge, Alberta"....r But that is nonetheless far enough west that it's (grossly speaking) part of the same dialect-leveling region. There's less difference in speech between an Alberan and an Angelino than between a Bostonian and an New Yorker, by a long chalk. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. On 21 Dec 2008, Roland Hutchinson wrote >> Chuck Riggs filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > less difference in speech between an Alberan and an Angelino > than between a Bostonian and an New Yorker, by a long chalk. She's probably a mutt in terms of accent -- Alberta and California, certainly, but with Toronto and New York thrown in at an important stage of her life. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >> Chuck Riggs filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >between an Alberan and an Angelino than between a Bostonian and an New >Yorker, by a long chalk. Joni doesn't sound like a typical Canadian to me. Come to think about it, Joni's voice is unique, in my experience with voices. My enthusiasm for her songs and her voice aside, I suspect she spent some formative years in L.A. She sings about the L.A. area a good deal, which is a clue. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >>> Chuck Riggs filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >formative years in L.A. She sings about the L.A. area a good deal, >which is a clue. Did you ever hear Charlie Dore?...a British singer-songwriter who had one respectable US hit in 1979 ("Pilot of the Airwaves")...listeners at that time often noted how much she sounded (and coincidentally, *looked*) like Joni Mitchell....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >often noted how much she sounded (and coincidentally, *looked*) like Joni >Mitchell....r So she's a one-song pony? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >You hear it Indiana. You hear it as "warsh cloth" from some Hoosiers, >but not this one. "Warsh cloth" is familiar to me because a school friend in Virginia used that odd pronunciation. I don't know where he picked it up, but it couldn't have been in Northern Virginia or I'd have heard it more often. Perhaps his mother or father were originally from Indiana, as you suggest, although I know they spent most of their lives in Virginia. If I had to guess, I'd sat they were originally from Baltimore. <snip> SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that comes out >>> of the spigot....r [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and brushes his teeth before he showers. It seems to me that brushing > your teeth before you shower is downright strange, but there you are. I usually do, because it would get any stray bits of toothpaste out of my face fungus. (I'm short-sighted.) SignatureMike. [...] > Presumably I'm the last man in civilisation who doesn't shower every > morning and shave while he's at it. As far as the former is concerned, you're not alone; I've never tried the latter, but if your suspicions are correct it would explain a recent exponential increase in the sales of styptic pencils. SignatureLes (BrE) >> And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that comes out of the >> spigot....r > > My complaint about shaving in hotels is that many of them put such enormous > single taps over small bowels that it's pretty well impossible to transfer > water from the bowl to your face with your hands. Those "small bowels" gave me pause but I do agree that these days in hotels it is very difficult to splash one's face in that fashion. I see that the face cloth issue has resurfaced later in this thread. In my recent experience, these are provided in hotels in continental Europe but not in the UK - at least not in the sort of hotels I stay in. [..] SignatureLaura, who does not recommend the Thistle Barbican where she was uncomfortable last night... (emulate St. George for email) > >> And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that comes out of the > >> spigot....r [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > my recent experience, these are provided in hotels in continental Europe > but not in the UK - at least not in the sort of hotels I stay in. We stayed in a very swish hotel near Bristol at the beginning of the month. We had a bathroom you could fit our home dining room in, with lovely antique mirrors and proper glass glasses. The hot water was hot, and the basin was large enough that YoungBloke couldn't reach the taps to wash his hands. They provided bathrobes, bath towels, hand towels and face flannels for all three of us (YB looked very dinky in his). There was no kettle, and we had those annoying coat-hangers but early morning tea/coffee/papers were delivered to the room on request. The food was marvellous too. And they had a spaniel available for guests to take out for walks. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary Linz Endell: > We stayed in a very swish hotel near Bristol at the beginning of the > month. ... > There was no kettle, and we had those annoying coat-hangers but early > morning tea/coffee/papers were delivered to the room on request. This reminds me of an annoyance in a number of American hotels where I've stayed in the last few years: on weekdays, delivery of USA Today to the room is a negative option. That is, if you don't say anything, you will get it, but if you ask not to have it, the price will be deducted from your room bill. This option is disclosed to you by some method such as a line of fine print in the holder they pass you your room's card-key in. > And they had a spaniel available for guests to take out for walks. Oh, my! I stayed in a hotel in Amsterdam once where they had a cat that visited the breakfast room. That was nice. SignatureMark Brader | "...he entertained the notion that I was cribbing from Toronto | other [students' exams] until it was pointed out that msb@vex.net | I often had the only correct answer..." --Lars Eighner My text in this article is in the public domain. > Linz Endell: >> We stayed in a very swish hotel near Bristol at the beginning of the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I stayed in a hotel in Amsterdam once where they had a cat that > visited the breakfast room. That was nice. Most hotels in Greece and Tunisia seem to have resident cats. SignatureDavid > Linz Endell: >> We stayed in a very swish hotel near Bristol at the beginning of the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > some method such as a line of fine print in the holder they pass you > your room's card-key in. I would gladly pay to not have to see it. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > I stayed in a hotel in Amsterdam once where they had a cat that > visited the breakfast room. That was nice. We visited a barbecue joint on one of the Florida keys that had a pet pig wandering around among the outdoor tables. The pig's name was Dinner. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> I stayed in a hotel in Amsterdam once where they had a cat that >> visited the breakfast room. That was nice. > > We visited a barbecue joint on one of the Florida keys that had a pet > pig wandering around among the outdoor tables. The pig's name was > Dinner. At Curtis's (BBQ place in Putney, Vermont; open seasonally), the pig's name is Isabel -- but she stays in her pen. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Linz Endell: >> We stayed in a very swish hotel near Bristol at the beginning of the >> month. ... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I stayed in a hotel in Amsterdam once where they had a cat that > visited the breakfast room. That was nice. My sister-in-law is currently in a "physical re-hab" place (physical and occupational therapy) following a hospital stay during part of which she was in a coma). Basically, she is learning how to strengthen her body/muscles. The patients are mostly "senior citizens." The place (hospital? clinic?) has a dog on the premises for the patients to play with, pet, etc. The dog goes pretty much where she wants. (There are probably some limits, but I don't know what they are.) The patients (and staff) all love the idea. SignatureMaria C. >> Linz Endell: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >The patients (and staff) all love the idea. In Ireland, the expression I most often hear is "old people" rather than the silly, American euphemism, "senior citizen". (I hope she gets better.) SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > In Ireland, the expression I most often hear is "old people" rather > than the silly, American euphemism, "senior citizen". 'I'm nearly an old age pensioner'. Greengrass in 'Heartbeat'. >>> Linz Endell: >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > In Ireland, the expression I most often hear is "old people" rather > than the silly, American euphemism, "senior citizen". I think that in the US the idea was to get away from stereotypes (like "old folks' home"). But since we all must apply ideas of people from the individual and particular to the general, then avoiding stereotypes is a lost cause. PC or non-PC. I don't at all mind being called a senior, but in most cases, one really shouldn't talk to people and refer to their (a)age, (b) sexual appeal, (c) complexion, and all of the other aspects that characterize them in your mind. One should save one's judgement for private ruminations. (Sorry, I know I get judgemental, too, at times.) > (I hope she gets better.) >>>> Linz Endell: >>> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >your mind. One should save one's judgement for private ruminations. >(Sorry, I know I get judgemental, too, at times.) You were, there. In my view, the topics you mention depend on the situation, the individuals involved and how well they know each other. For example, many old people enjoy talking about their age and health, perhaps because this gives them a chance to talk about themselves, which most of us enjoy doing. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > For example, > many old people enjoy talking about their age and health, perhaps > because this gives them a chance to talk about themselves, which most > of us enjoy doing. Have I told you about my cataract operation? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> For example, >> many old people enjoy talking about their age and health, perhaps >> because this gives them a chance to talk about themselves, which most >> of us enjoy doing. > > Have I told you about my cataract operation? Heh-heh. SignatureMaria C. The cataract surgery's done and all is well; now I just need to get glasses for "close up." >>> For example, >>> many old people enjoy talking about their age and health, perhaps [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Heh-heh. Hey! Don't laugh. Minor and a breeze though it was, it was my first operation in about 70 years and I approached it with trepidation. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> John Varela wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Hey! Don't laugh. Minor and a breeze though it was, it was my first > operation in about 70 years and I approached it with trepidation. I was "heh-heh"ing because I recently told AUE readers about my own cataract operation. I think a couple of others told about theirs around the same time. SignatureMaria C. >>> John Varela wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > cataract operation. I think a couple of others told about theirs around > the same time. I knew that. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>>> John Varela wrote: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I knew that. Okay. SignatureMaria C. >>>>> John Varela wrote: >>>>>> Have I told you about my cataract operation? >>>>> Heh-heh. >>>> Hey! Don't laugh. Minor and a breeze though it was, it was my >>>> first operation in about 70 years and I approached it with >>>> trepidation. >>> I was "heh-heh"ing because I recently told AUE readers about my own >>> cataract operation. I think a couple of others told about theirs >>> around the same time. >> I knew that. > Okay. An elderly Chinese man is suffering dimming vision in an eye. He is concerned and consults an eye doctor. His eye doctor gives him a good exam then, "No problem, old fella. This can be fixed. You have a cataract." This old Chinese boy is confused, "No cataract, I drive rincon." SignaturePurl Gurl -- This is to the native American poster who I believe to be a woman, but for some reason is gotten up like Groucho Marx: Excuse me? -- Margo Howard, 11/19/2008 >> For example, >> many old people enjoy talking about their age and health, perhaps >> because this gives them a chance to talk about themselves, which most >> of us enjoy doing. > >Have I told you about my cataract operation? I'm all ears, as long as I can tell you how well my hernia scar healed, afterwards. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> My sister-in-law is currently in a "physical re-hab" place (physical >> and occupational therapy) following a hospital stay during part of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > In Ireland, the expression I most often hear is "old people" rather > than the silly, American euphemism, "senior citizen". "Old people" still gets said here, but "senior citizens" seems to be widely used -- often in a jocular sense. As for it being labeled "silly": we know that; we just don't care. > (I hope she gets better.) She's doing well, thank you. She's home now; we'll see her on Christmas Day if not sooner. SignatureMaria C. >>> My sister-in-law is currently in a "physical re-hab" place (physical >>> and occupational therapy) following a hospital stay during part of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >widely used -- often in a jocular sense. As for it being labeled >"silly": we know that; we just don't care. Do you have a mouse in your pocket? >> (I hope she gets better.) > >She's doing well, thank you. She's home now; we'll see her on Christmas >Day if not sooner. From your "if not sooner", I assume that's a good thing, for the phrase probably indicates pleasurable anticipation in this context. It could indicate the opposite but knowing you, that is unlikely. In my own married days, I'd have used a different phrase, since my SIL was never my favourite person, somewhat easier to tolerate than my MIL, though. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> In Ireland, the expression I most often hear is "old people" rather >>> than the silly, American euphemism, "senior citizen". [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Do you have a mouse in your pocket? That reminds me of "gun in your pocket." Anyway, the "we" was the "royal we."[1] (Or something like that.) >>> (I hope she gets better.) >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > From your "if not sooner", I assume that's a good thing, for the > phrase probably indicates pleasurable anticipation in this context. Yes. Bri and I look forward to seeing her (though we did visit her a couple of times at the physical rehabilitation facility). > ...It could indicate the opposite but knowing you, that is unlikely. I think you mean that I don't mince words. That's generally true. > In my own married days, I'd have used a different phrase, since my SIL > was never my favourite person, somewhat easier to tolerate than my > MIL, though. I'm lucky in that regard. Most of my in-laws are (or were) very nice. [1] The "royal we" has been discussed in AUE before, hasn't it? SignatureMaria C. > Linz Endell: > > We stayed in a very swish hotel near Bristol at the beginning of the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I stayed in a hotel in Amsterdam once where they had a cat that > visited the breakfast room. That was nice. They had a cat, too, but it was incredibly cold weather and he stayed firmly in the laundry room. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >Linz Endell: >> We stayed in a very swish hotel near Bristol at the beginning of the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >some method such as a line of fine print in the holder they pass you >your room's card-key in. Only in America. Still, I might pay not to get it, it is such a worthless rag. Getting it, I might waste time reading it. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >And they had a spaniel available for guests to >take out for walks. I've got a spaniel available for walks. Volunteers are welcome. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that comes out of the >>> spigot....r [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >my recent experience, these are provided in hotels in continental Europe >but not in the UK - at least not in the sort of hotels I stay in. I've noticed that, and they're often in the form of a glove. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:46:00 +0000: >> And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that >> comes out of the spigot....r > My complaint about shaving in hotels is that many of them put > such enormous single taps over small bowels that it's pretty > well impossible to transfer water from the bowl to your face > with your hands. > Presumably I'm the last man in civilisation who doesn't shower > every morning and shave while he's at it. You still have some friends or do you shower at night? I've never shaved in the shower since I use an electric razor but you can even buy electric ones for use in the shower nowadays. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:46:00 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > in the shower since I use an electric razor but you can even buy > electric ones for use in the shower nowadays. Was our world really full of smelly people (e.g. in the 70s) when everybody took a bath once a week? There was a programme here with a group living on a Scottish island for a year - they soon realised that it wasn't necessary to wash anywhere near so often as they were used to. SignatureDavid >Was our world really full of smelly people (e.g. in the 70s) when >everybody took a bath once a week? Who is this "everybody" of which you speak? In my world, everybody has "always" showered every day, except for the young and infirm, who had to take baths instead. (And those of us who have oily hair know all too well the horror of bed-head.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >> Was our world really full of smelly people (e.g. in the 70s) when >> everybody took a bath once a week? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > young and infirm, who had to take baths instead. (And those of us who > have oily hair know all too well the horror of bed-head.) Showers were uncommon and exotic in private homes where I grew up. There was no shower in my parents' houses nor my university hall of residence or rented flat. We did take showers at school after swimming, PE and outdoor games, but purely with water. It never occurred to anybody to take soap to school. And that was in term time only, of course. Other than that we had one or two baths a week; in the summer when the fire was not lit so no hot water from the back-boiler, you had to plan in advance to put the electric immersion heater on an hour before you wanted a bath. SignatureDavid >> Was our world really full of smelly people (e.g. in the 70s) when > everybody took a bath once a week? There was a programme here with a > group living on a Scottish island for a year - they soon realised that > it wasn't necessary to wash anywhere near so often as they were used > to. I wouldn't say the 70s, but "the 50s" sounds close. Until I was a teenager (which happened in 1956), I doubt that baths (and hairwashing) occurred more than once or twice a week. I could, of course, be wrong. Bathing* schedules aren't something that one would remember for years to come. In those days, most of us did not have hair dryers, and certainly not the kind of portable, hand-held dryers we have now. Girls slept on wet (or at least, damp) hair in curlers. *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? SignatureMaria C. >> Was our world really full of smelly people (e.g. in the 70s) when >> everybody took a bath once a week? There was a programme here with a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? I now realize that my bathing schedule has been very erratic at various times in my life. In Latvia, it was a Saturday chore. In Germany, it was pretty much the same, as in the DP Camps there were showering days in the communal facilities on some sort of weekly schedule. Then, finally, when I was sixteen, in the USA, bathing occurred much more often. That changed again when I did Army duty in Greenland, where for considerable bad-weather stretches water was available for drinking only. Finally, after the Army, I could start a regular bathing schedule, so the last thing I do now before hitting the sack is to take a shower. I don't want to go to bed dirty or sweaty. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > I wouldn't say the 70s, but "the 50s" sounds close. Until I was a > teenager (which happened in 1956), I doubt that baths (and hairwashing) > occurred more than once or twice a week. I could, of course, be wrong. > Bathing* schedules aren't something that one would remember for years to > come. You grew up in a cold climate. In New Orleans before air conditioning it was a bath every day, and you were already sweating before you could towel yourself dry. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >*ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? For me, it means swimming in the sea if it's pronounced with a long A, and it means having a bath (is that AmE "taking" a bath?) with a short A. Bay-thing as opposd to bah-thing. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? I think that disappeared here in about the 1920s. The local swimming pool was still called "the baths", though, into the 1960s. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >> *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? > I think that disappeared here in about the 1920s. The local swimming > pool was still called "the baths", though, into the 1960s. The two oldest public pools in Ottawa are still called "the Plant Baths" and "the Champagne Baths"; one's first visit to the latter is a disappointment, bien sur. >>> *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Baths" and "the Champagne Baths"; one's first visit to the latter is a > disappointment, bien sur. The oldest one in Melbourne is also still known as the City Baths (est. 1860): http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/info.cfm?top=287&pg=2578 It originally had bathtubs, and I think still has a few for travellers. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>>> *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? >>> I think that disappeared here in about the 1920s. The local >>> swimming pool was still called "the baths", though, into the >>> 1960s. >> The two oldest public pools in Ottawa are still called "the Plant >> Baths" and "the Champagne Baths"; one's first visit to the latter >> is a disappointment, bien sur. > The oldest one in Melbourne is also still known as the City Baths > (est. 1860): > http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/info.cfm?top=287&pg=2578 > It originally had bathtubs, and I think still has a few for > travellers. I find that I have miswrote myself, being now some decades past my last visit to the *Plant Recreation Centre* (Centre récréatif Plant). Frank Plant was mayor at the time of building(1921-23). And it was "The Plant Bath", according to Wikip, though I have never heard anybody use the singular form. Wikip also says "It was built along with the Champagne Bath [Napoléon Champagne, local luminary, acting mayor for part of 1924] in 1924 to try and improve the hygiene and well being of the city's lower classes," but the French appears to have been "La piscine Plant" until the renovation. When I went there as a child, they had only shower-baths, besides the pool, AFAICR. ObAUE: There is no record as to how sorely the hygiene of the lower classes had to be tried before any improvement was noted. >> *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? > > I think that disappeared here in about the 1920s. The local swimming > pool was still called "the baths", though, into the 1960s. I still wear a bathing suit, not a swim suit. Or would wear one if I ever went to a swimming pool or the shore, neither of which I have done for decades. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>> *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? >> I think that disappeared here in about the 1920s. The local swimming >> pool was still called "the baths", though, into the 1960s. > I still wear a bathing suit, not a swim suit. Or would wear one if I > ever went to a swimming pool or the shore, neither of which I have done > for decades. You wear clothes when you go swimming? How very odd. SignaturePurl Gurl -- This is to the native American poster who I believe to be a woman, but for some reason is gotten up like Groucho Marx: Excuse me? -- Margo Howard, 11/19/2008 Maria Conlon: >>> *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? Not me. John Varela: > I still wear a bathing suit, not a swim suit. Or would wear one if I > ever went to a swimming pool or the shore, neither of which I have done > for decades. Me too, on all points except that I have occasionally been to the seashore in regular street clothes. SignatureMark Brader "A healthy nation is as unconscious of its Toronto nationality as a healthy man of his bones." msb@vex.net -- Shaw >>> *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >ever went to a swimming pool or the shore, neither of which I have done >for decades. I've always said "swimming suit". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >I've always said "swimming suit". "Togs" for me. I have heard "swimmers" (not to mention "budgie smugglers"). SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >>>>> *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >"Togs" for me. I have heard "swimmers" (not to mention "budgie >smugglers"). I've read "togs" in the dialogue of characters in novels, but this may be the first time I've come across the word in the wild. The OED tells me it is an Australian word, so it is not surprising that Richard used it. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>> *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >me it is an Australian word, so it is not surprising that Richard used >it. Here it would have to be "swimming togs", to distinguish it from other sorts of sartorial toggitude in which one might get togged up. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:39:34 +1100, Richard Bollard [...]>>> >>> "Togs" for me. I have heard "swimmers" (not to mention "budgie >>> smugglers"). [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Here it would have to be "swimming togs", to distinguish it from other > sorts of sartorial toggitude in which one might get togged up. I've often wondered how the word got locked onto swimming clothes in AusE. OED's derivation is no help here: <Usually pl. togs. [app. a shortening of TOGEMAN(S, TOGMAN, used in Vagabonds' Cant as early as the 16th c. Its currency in the 19th c. was no doubt aided by its obvious connexion with TOGA; cf. TOGE.] > (I find "toge" above is an obsolete alternative to "toga". It seems to have rimed with "rogue".) SignatureMike. >>>>> I still wear a bathing suit, not a swim suit. Or would wear one >>>>> if I ever went to a swimming pool or the shore, neither of which [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Here it would have to be "swimming togs", to distinguish it from other > sorts of sartorial toggitude in which one might get togged up. I think there used to be a menswear shop somewhere around Detroit called "The Toggery." (I see some "Toggery" shops online in Michigan, but not in the area I'm remembering.) But it could be that the person who told me about the place only /called/ it "the toggery" because it sold, well, togs. Time frame: 40-to-45 years ago; I don't hear "togs" or "toggery" much any more. Btw, I like "toggitude"; I'd use it as a term meaning the haughty air assumed by someone who knows he (or she) is dressed finer than anyone else in the room. SignatureMaria C. >> *ObAUE: Does "bathing" mean "swimming" to anyone in the group? > > I think that disappeared here in about the 1920s. The local swimming > pool was still called "the baths", though, into the 1960s. When I hear "the baths" these days, I often think of "mineral baths," "mineral springs," or a type of "spa." (My father was born in Hot Springs, North Carolina. The town drew many visitors because of the mineral springs there.) http://www.hotspringsnc.org/frameset.php?MenuName=History I've visited the house his mother grew up in; it's right next to the railroad tracks that carried visitors to the area. (Her uncle* was a railroad employee; the house was provided either free or at a good rate. Nice house, and it's been kept up through the years.) I've also visited the site of "the baths." I not sure whether they are in operation at all now. *When her maternal mother and father died, her uncle and aunt took her in and raised her. "Mineral springs" also brings to mind the city of Mt. Clemens, MI, which is not too far from us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Clemens,_Michigan (see 2nd item: Bath House Era) I've been in the town, but have never seen "the baths." There was a railroad line from Detroit to Mt. Clemens years ago; it might have been because of the baths, but might have been because Mt. Clemens was (and still is) the county seat (Macomb County; Detroit is in Wayne County). SignatureMaria C. >> Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:46:00 +0000: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Was our world really full of smelly people (e.g. in the 70s) when > everybody took a bath once a week? In the gritty north, presumably, when the coal was cleared out? In the soft south we bathed every day. We didn't have the luxury - and speed - of a shower until we moved to our present house in 1985. There was a programme here with a > group living on a Scottish island for a year - they soon realised that > it wasn't necessary to wash anywhere near so often as they were used to. I think that people probably vary as regards how smelly they get. Having travelled up and down the M40 by bus very frequently recently, I have yet to decide which is more offensive among the regulars - the smartly dressed man who likes to sit in the front seat but whose BO can be detected from the rear of the bus, or the several women whose perfume is so strong that it lingers on your own clothes if any of them sit next to you. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:46:00 +0000: >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > soft south we bathed every day. We didn't have the luxury - and speed - > of a shower until we moved to our present house in 1985. Gritty Midlands. I think it would have been considered extravagant use of hot water, especially in the summer when you had to heat it separately from the fires. But we were semi-posh and had a coal shed so the bath remained uncontaminated. During the summer we also boiled a kettle to make enough hot water to wash up (UK meaning - "wash the dishes") every evening. The idea of heating an entire tank of water to wash up was never even considered. SignatureDavid >> Nick wrote on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:46:00 +0000: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >group living on a Scottish island for a year - they soon realised that >it wasn't necessary to wash anywhere near so often as they were used to. I read your later comments about when you were young, and my family was just the same. Bath once a week in hot water in the winter when we had a fire to heat the water, and cold water in the summer when we didn't. We had no immersion heater. I haven't had a bath (as opposed to a shower) since early in 1997. Long sojourns in hospital left me without the strength to lift myself out of a bath. We've discussed baths for the disabled, but immersion in hot water might well disturb the adhesive that holds my ostomy appliance in place, and I don't want to try that even as an experiment to see if it does or doesn't. As to showers, I'm now back to the anti-DVT stockings and can no longer undress myself, so it's once a week in winter and whenever my wife has the time to help me in summer. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > You still have some friends or do you shower at night? I've never shaved > in the shower since I use an electric razor but you can even buy > electric ones for use in the shower nowadays. I don't shower every day. One reason is that I find too much cleaning bad for my skin - I tend to come out in spots. Another is that I hate putting clothes on unless I'm scrupulously clean. I bath around twice a week (early evening, then relax in a dressing gown until bed), use an effective de-odorant and, if the weather is hot or I've been doing something strenuous, intercalate a shower or a wash-down. I do not believe I smell. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk Experimental version; http://canalplan.eu > I don't shower every day. One reason is that I find too much cleaning bad > for my skin - I tend to come out in spots. I'd always showered every day until I developed eczema in my old age. To avoid dry skin I've cut back to showering every other day unless I've done something to get dirty or sweaty. This is only possible because everything is air conditioned these days. Anecdote: A friend was told by his doctor that he should do this, that, and the other thing for dry skin. He objected that he had never before had a problem with dry skin. The doctor said that was because he had never before been 86 years old. This coming summer he will be 90 and still playing 18 holes of golf with us every Saturday morning. He doesn't play in cold weather because it bothers his frostbite from the Battle of the Bulge. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. John Varela filted: >I'd always showered every day until I developed eczema in my old age. >To avoid dry skin I've cut back to showering every other day unless >I've done something to get dirty or sweaty. In Phoenix that would include such activities as "having a pulse"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >John Varela filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >In Phoenix that would include such activities as "having a pulse"....r I'm surprised, since the air is very dry in Arizona, isn't it? In John's neck of the woods, the relativity humidity can hit 90 per cent, if I'm not mistaken. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>John Varela filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > John's neck of the woods, the relativity humidity can hit 90 per > cent, if I'm not mistaken. "The good news is: It's a *dry* heat; so it feels about ten degrees cooler than it really is. The bad news is: That means it feels like its a hundred and ten." Okay, maybe not quite that bad, but the *average* high is at least 95 from May 19th through September 29th, at least 100 from June 1st through September 14th, and at least 105 from June 17th through August 16th. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |This gubblick contains many 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the overall pluggandisp can be |glorked from context. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | (650)857-7572 | David Moser http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>John Varela filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >through September 14th, and at least 105 from June 17th through August >16th. Yes, it is the humidity that is the bitch, not so much the temperature. When both are high, as sometimes happens in Washington, D.C. summers, it is miserable outside. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > Yes, it is the humidity that is the bitch, not so much the > temperature. When both are high, as sometimes happens in Washington, > D.C. summers, it is miserable outside. I stopped walking the golf course when the temperature reaches 90F after I came close to heat stroke one time several years ago. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Yes, it is the humidity that is the bitch, not so much the >> temperature. When both are high, as sometimes happens in Washington, >> D.C. summers, it is miserable outside. > >I stopped walking the golf course when the temperature reaches 90F >after I came close to heat stroke one time several years ago. Had you consumed a beer before almost experiencing heat stroke? Alcohol can exacerbate the effects of extreme heat, I understand, for reasons that escape me. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> Yes, it is the humidity that is the bitch, not so much the >>> temperature. When both are high, as sometimes happens in Washington, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Alcohol can exacerbate the effects of extreme heat, I understand, for > reasons that escape me. Can't carry a beer and a golf bag at the same time, at least not easily. I do carry a water bottle. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >>>> Yes, it is the humidity that is the bitch, not so much the >>>> temperature. When both are high, as sometimes happens in Washington, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Can't carry a beer and a golf bag at the same time, at least not >easily. I do carry a water bottle. Were you drinking plenty of water from it before the onset of symptoms? The following is interesting: http://www.medicinenet.com/heat_stroke/article.htm SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> Yes, it is the humidity that is the bitch, not so much the >>>>> temperature. When both are high, as sometimes happens in Washington, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Were you drinking plenty of water from it before the onset of > symptoms? Sure. But evidently not enough. > The following is interesting: > > http://www.medicinenet.com/heat_stroke/article.htm After looking at that, maybe I wasn't as close to heat stroke as I thought. What I experienced was dizziness and weakness in the knees. I had to stop playing and go sit in the shade. On those hot humid days I would finish a round of golf with white patches of salt streaking my shirt. I decided that was crazy. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> Were you drinking plenty of water from it before the onset of >> symptoms? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >thought. What I experienced was dizziness and weakness in the knees. >I had to stop playing and go sit in the shade. Thsoe are symptons of heat exhaustion which sometimes leads to heat stroke. http://www.medicinenet.com/heat_exhaustion/article.htm Here in Arizona we all know the Golden Rule is "Drink lots and lots of water". Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>>> Yes, it is the humidity that is the bitch, not so much the >>>>>> temperature. When both are high, as sometimes happens in Washington, [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >I decided that was crazy. Sitting under a shade tree while sipping iced tea or mint juleps is more my style on those hot, humid summer days Virginia is infamous for. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> I don't shower every day. One reason is that I find too much cleaning bad >> for my skin - I tend to come out in spots. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I've done something to get dirty or sweaty. This is only possible >because everything is air conditioned these days. <Anecdote snipped> My dry skin problems, eczema included, are relieved by washing with "Silcock's Base Cream", recommended by the medical staff here. It works wonders, believe me. For the densest of my dry skin patches, I periodically apply it directly, with no water, and leave it in place for a few hours. Several months ago, patches on both elbows completely cleared up after a few weeks of its use. I don't know whether the jars are sold by prescription only, but I doubt it, for staff hand them out like candy here in the clinic. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >My dry skin problems, eczema included, are relieved by washing with >"Silcock's Base Cream", recommended by the medical staff here. It [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I don't know whether the jars are sold by prescription only, but I >doubt it, for staff hand them out like candy here in the clinic. According to this, it is an Over The Counter medication: http://www.irishhealth.com/clin/psor/self_help.html SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>My dry skin problems, eczema included, are relieved by washing with >>"Silcock's Base Cream", recommended by the medical staff here. It [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >According to this, it is an Over The Counter medication: >http://www.irishhealth.com/clin/psor/self_help.html Thank you, Peter. If I ever leave this place, that information will come in handy. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >My dry skin problems, eczema included, are relieved by washing with >"Silcock's Base Cream", recommended by the medical staff here. It >works wonders, believe me. For the densest of my dry skin patches, I >periodically apply it directly, with no water, and leave it in place >for a few hours. Several months ago, patches on both elbows completely >cleared up after a few weeks of its use. I had a psoriatic patch on one knee for many years, and no treatment, prescription or OTC, designed to cure it had any effect.... I spilled some chlorine bleach on it one day and the patch was gone the next....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" R wrote on 18 Dec 2008 07:09:22 -0800: > Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> hours. Several months ago, patches on both elbows completely >> cleared up after a few weeks of its use. > I had a psoriatic patch on one knee for many years, and no > treatment, prescription or OTC, designed to cure it had any > effect.... > I spilled some chlorine bleach on it one day and the patch was > gone the next....r The trouble about skin ailments is that all the various nostrums work for someone, sometimes. I don't mean that sarcastically either. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Chuck Riggs filted: >> My dry skin problems, eczema included, are relieved by washing with >> "Silcock's Base Cream", recommended by the medical staff here. It [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I spilled some chlorine bleach on it one day and the patch was gone > the next....r Yeah, but is your knee still there? SignatureSkitt (AmE) > I had a psoriatic patch on one knee for many years, and no treatment, > prescription or OTC, designed to cure it had any effect.... > > I spilled some chlorine bleach on it one day and the patch was gone the > next....r Undiluted bleach!? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. John Varela filted: >> I had a psoriatic patch on one knee for many years, and no treatment, >> prescription or OTC, designed to cure it had any effect.... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Undiluted bleach!? Whatever strength it's sold at for laundry purposes....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I spilled some chlorine bleach on it one day and the patch was gone the >next....r Wow. I'm not sure I'd recommend that method. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >>I had a psoriatic patch on one knee for many years, and no treatment, >>prescription or OTC, designed to cure it had any effect.... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Wow. I'm not sure I'd recommend that method. Not as a general recommendation, but it may work because psoriasis isn't so much "dead" skin as skin that is replenishing itself *too* quickly...kill off or sterilize a few cells and give the rest a chance to catch up, and the condition clears....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >sterilize a few cells and give the rest a chance to catch up, and the condition >clears....r I'm not convinced. I avoid even the fumes from chlorine bleach, it is so wicked. "Wicked" has several meanings. I was using the word in its conventional sense, to mean evil or extremely bad. It can also mean the opposite: very good, excellent or even wonderful. Mainers, I learned from living in the state, often talk about something being "wicked good". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > My dry skin problems, eczema included, are relieved by washing with > "Silcock's Base Cream", recommended by the medical staff here. It > works wonders, believe me. For the densest of my dry skin patches, I > periodically apply it directly, with no water, and leave it in place > for a few hours. Wow. That sounds like a lot of trouble. I had mild eczema for about a decade but didn't even realize what it was. I only had the problem on my ankles in the winter and ascribed it to wearing woolen socks. I let it go too long, though, and one ankle got --- what was the word? Ulcerated? Anyway, raw and bleeding. The Dr was afraid it would attack the Achilles tendon. He prescribed Clobetasol Proprionate Cream USP, 0.05% and it cleared it right up in a few days. It was amazing. The Dr said there's usually elbow involvement; I checked in the mirror and sure enough... Since then twice daily applications of a skin moisturizer and showering with hypoallergenic Dove soap have kept everything under control. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. >> My dry skin problems, eczema included, are relieved by washing with >> "Silcock's Base Cream", recommended by the medical staff here. It [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Wow. That sounds like a lot of trouble. It is a lot of trouble, but it is well worth it when you have severe skin dryness. >I had mild eczema for about a decade but didn't even realize what it >was. I only had the problem on my ankles in the winter and ascribed it >to wearing woolen socks. I let it go too long, though, and one ankle >got --- what was the word? Ulcerated? Anyway, raw and bleeding. Both of my elbows were that way. It seemed like a hopeless problem to me, but the regular application of Silcock's eventually cleared them up. Now they are fine. > The Dr >was afraid it would attack the Achilles tendon. He prescribed >Clobetasol Proprionate Cream USP, 0.05% and it cleared it right up in a >few days. It was amazing. The Dr said there's usually elbow >involvement; I checked in the mirror and sure enough... I believe I used the same product for a couple of days on another part of my body. It is miracle cream, AFAIK, if we're referring to the same thing. >Since then twice daily applications of a skin moisturizer and showering >with hypoallergenic Dove soap have kept everything under control. I used Dove soap when I lived in America. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > My complaint about shaving in hotels is that many of them put such enormous > single taps over small bowels I'm not going to touch that line. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > > And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that comes out of the > > spigot....r > > My complaint about shaving in hotels is that many of them put such enormous > single taps over small bowels So you want a colon and they give you a semicolon? > that it's pretty well impossible to transfer > water from the bowl to your face with your hands. > > Presumably I'm the last man in civilisation who doesn't shower every morning > and shave while he's at it. I shave right after taking a shower--if I'm awake enough, I get some benefit from the mirror, and I don't have one in the shower. I splash water on my face from the faucet. The water is cold, because I'd have to wait too long for it to warm up (even after taking a hot shower--I wonder what the pipes look like). However, the bathroom is steamy (which is why this is a good time to shave), so the cold water isn't Spartan. -- Jerry Friedman jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote on Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:31:46 -0800 (PST): > >> And I can't get a decent shave with the "hot" water that > >> comes out of the spigot....r >> >> My complaint about shaving in hotels is that many of them put >> such enormous single taps over small bowels > So you want a colon and they give you a semicolon? > I shave right after taking a shower--if I'm awake enough, I > get some benefit from the mirror, and I don't have one in the > shower. I splash water on my face from the faucet. > The water is cold, because I'd have to wait too long for it to > warm up (even after taking a hot shower--I wonder what the > pipes look like). However, the bathroom is steamy (which is > why this is a good time to shave), so the cold water isn't > Spartan. All of the above is probably true but it implies that one is shaving with a blade. A lot of people say they "shave" with an electric razor and it is well to wait until one is thoroughly dry if a close shave is desired. This last leaves out the electric razors that use various soaps and lotions. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > I don't trust the plastic cups with my immersion heater...even the glass ones > make me a little nervous.... Even Motel 8 provides an in-room coffee maker with ceramic cups these days. What kind of hotel have you been staying in? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. > On that score, I'd rather have disposable plastic cups in individual > wrappers. I don't trust the cleanliness of glasses that have been > washed by the maid who just cleaned the toilet. Why do you imagine that it's the maid who washes the glasses? SignatureMark Brader I'm not pompous; I'm pedantic. Toronto Let me explain it to you. msb@vex.net --Mary Kay Kare > > On that score, I'd rather have disposable plastic cups in > > individual wrappers. I don't trust the cleanliness of glasses that > > have been washed by the maid who just cleaned the toilet. > > Why do you imagine that it's the maid who washes the glasses? One of the news magazine shows had a hidden camera episode on hotel rooms. In some cases, the maid took the used drinking glasses, gave them a wipe with the used hand towels, and that was it for cleaning them. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> On that score, I'd rather have disposable plastic cups in individual >> wrappers. I don't trust the cleanliness of glasses that have been >> washed by the maid who just cleaned the toilet. > > Why do you imagine that it's the maid who washes the glasses? Who else? I'll tell you who: me. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email. John Varela: >>> On that score, I'd rather have disposable plastic cups in individual >>> wrappers. I don't trust the cleanliness of glasses that have been >>> washed by the maid who just cleaned the toilet. Mark Brader: >> Why do you imagine that it's the maid who washes the glasses? John Varela: > Who else? The dishwashing staff. Of course, if you want to decide that the clean glasses that arrive on the cart with the towels and bedding are not the same ones that end up in your room, you're free to do so. > I'll tell you who: me. See signature quote. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Whatever you are, be out and out, msb@vex.net | not divided or in doubt." -- Brand (Ibsen) >> Maria C. filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >One of the marks of a good hotel is that they provide real hangers, not >those ball-in-the-slot things. They were a horrible invention, even if they eliminate wooden hanger theft. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Maria Conlon: > Regarding "wardrobe": In the US (as far as I know), a "wardrobe" is "a > tall piece of furniture that provides storage space for clothes; has a > door and rails or hooks for hanging clothes." But I'd say that most > bedrooms here have "a closet": a small room (more likely a recess) where > clothes are hung. ... Hmm. I don't remember any place I've lived, and there have been plenty of them, having a bedroom "closet" that was just a recess, if by that you mean it had no door. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "...good to see you back in the 'From' column." msb@vex.net | --Maria Conlon > Maria Conlon: >> Regarding "wardrobe": In the US (as far as I know), a "wardrobe" is >> "a tall piece of furniture that provides storage space for clothes; [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > plenty of them, having a bedroom "closet" that was just a recess, if > by that you mean it had no door. Mostly they have doors, but when I was a child, the closets in our first house* had no doors -- just long cloth curtains hanging from rods in the closet doorways. My father put doors on the closets before too many months had gone by. *Built just after WWII, bought [from the first owner] by my parents in 1953) We (my parents and I) also had doorless (doorfree?) closets in the various 3-room apartments we lived in during earlier years. Again, there were doorway curtains. It wasn't all that unusual in those years. By the way, when we (Brian and I) lived in Pittsburgh, we had an old house. In one of the bedrooms, there was no closet at all. We would have done something about it, but before too long, we found we were moving again. Maria C. >We (my parents and I) also had doorless (doorfree?) closets in the >various 3-room apartments we lived in during earlier years. Again, there >were doorway curtains. It wasn't all that unusual in those years. True, that. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > We (my parents and I) also had doorless (doorfree?) closets in the > various 3-room apartments we lived in during earlier years. Again, there > were doorway curtains. It wasn't all that unusual in those years. Still isn't, for me. We have three bedrooms; only one has a door on its closet. SignatureSML >> We (my parents and I) also had doorless (doorfree?) closets in the >> various 3-room apartments we lived in during earlier years. Again, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Still isn't, for me. We have three bedrooms; only one has a door on > its closet. Thanks to you and Tony for backing up my "doorway curtains" mention. I was beginning to wonder what sort of world I had lived in. (Mark had said "Hmm. I don't remember any place I've lived, and there have been plenty of them, having a bedroom "closet" that was just a recess, if by that you mean it had no door.") SignatureMaria C. >>> We (my parents and I) also had doorless (doorfree?) closets in the >>> various 3-room apartments we lived in during earlier years. Again, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > plenty of them, having a bedroom "closet" that was just a recess, if > by that you mean it had no door.") People don't always want doors: the built-in wardrobe in one of my bedrooms clearly had one at first (the striker plate is still there), but the previous owners had removed it, and I see no sign of a curtain previous to the one I fitted to match the one on the window. SignatureMike. > I'm never sure about much of anything, but the dictionaries I > consulted about "inbuilt" said that "built-in" is the American > version. But is "built-in" the AmE version of "built-in", or the AmE version of "inbuilt", or does the dictionary mean that it covers both meanings? SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >> I'm never sure about much of anything, but the dictionaries I >> consulted about "inbuilt" said that "built-in" is the American >> version. > > But is "built-in" the AmE version of "built-in", or the AmE version of > "inbuilt", or does the dictionary mean that it covers both meanings? I figured it covers both. ICBW. SignatureMaria C. >>> I'm never sure about much of anything, but the dictionaries I >>> consulted about "inbuilt" said that "built-in" is the American [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I figured it covers both. ICBW. M-W Online: Main Entry: in·built [...] Function: adjective Date: 1923 chiefly British : built-in AHD4: inbuilt SYLLABICATION: in·built [...] ADJECTIVE: Built-in; inherent. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>> I'm never sure about much of anything, but the dictionaries I >>>> consulted about "inbuilt" said that "built-in" is the American [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Date: 1923 > chiefly British : built-in I take that last bit to mean that "inbuilt" is chiefly British, and that the word means the same as "built-in." Am I wrong? > AHD4: > inbuilt > SYLLABICATION: in·built > [...] > ADJECTIVE: Built-in; inherent. Still not hearing "inbuilt" anywhere I go, Maria C. >>>>> I'm never sure about much of anything, but the dictionaries I >>>>> consulted about "inbuilt" said that "built-in" is the American [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I take that last bit to mean that "inbuilt" is chiefly British, and > that the word means the same as "built-in." Am I wrong? I wouldn't think so. >> AHD4: >> inbuilt [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Still not hearing "inbuilt" anywhere I go, Me neither. SignatureSkitt (AmE) Not very British of me, that. >>>>>> I'm never sure about much of anything, but the dictionaries I >>>>>> consulted about "inbuilt" said that "built-in" is the American >>>>>> version. >>>>> But is "built-in" the AmE version of "built-in", or the AmE version >>>>> of "inbuilt", or does the dictionary mean that it covers both >>>>> meanings? >>>> I figured it covers both. ICBW. >>> M-W Online: >>> Main Entry: in·built >>> [...] >>> Function: adjective >>> Date: 1923 >>> chiefly British : built-in >> I take that last bit to mean that "inbuilt" is chiefly British, and >> that the word means the same as "built-in." Am I wrong? > I wouldn't think so. >>> AHD4: >>> inbuilt >>> SYLLABICATION: in·built >>> [...] >>> ADJECTIVE: Built-in; inherent. >> Still not hearing "inbuilt" anywhere I go, > Me neither. Sometimes during comfort of darkness and quilt, I will whisper to my husband, "You sure are inbuilt." SignaturePurl Gurl -- About the only chance you have at an education is to read what I write. >>>>>>> I'm never sure about much of anything, but the dictionaries I >>>>>>> consulted about "inbuilt" said that "built-in" is the American [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > "You sure are inbuilt." Does he ever ask 'Who is Bill?' |
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