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Discussion Groups / English Usage / February 2004West Europe
In a German book about post-war Germany, I found several quotations (in English) from American diplomats mentioning "West Europe". I had only heard "Western Europe" before. Is "West Europe" an acceptable variant, an older variant, or is it maybe a mistake of the German editor, who correctly reconstructed many shortened words like Ger[many], Eur[ope] and Sov[iet] and missed to reconstruct the West[ern] likewise?  SignatureOliver C. Oliver Cromm <c1205@er.uqam.ca> wrote on 23 Feb 2004: > In a German book about post-war Germany, I found several > quotations (in English) from American diplomats mentioning "West [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > many shortened words like Ger[many], Eur[ope] and Sov[iet] and > missed to reconstruct the West[ern] likewise? I've never read it or heard it from native speakers of English. I'd fault the German editor for not reconstructing the term, unless there is documentary evidence that these diplomats actually wrote "West Europe" instead of "West. Europe" or said "West Europe" instead of "Western Europe". SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > Oliver Cromm <c1205@er.uqam.ca> wrote on 23 Feb 2004: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > wrote "West Europe" instead of "West. Europe" or said "West > Europe" instead of "Western Europe". Reading further, this morning I came to a photographical reproduction of a typed manuscript mentioning "West European countries", and not containing any other shortened terms. SignatureOliver Cromm > In a German book about post-war Germany, I found several quotations (in > English) from American diplomats mentioning "West Europe". I had only [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > shortened words like Ger[many], Eur[ope] and Sov[iet] and missed to > reconstruct the West[ern] likewise? West Europe and Western Europe are two distinct things. Like southern France and the South of France. \\P. Schultz >West Europe and Western Europe are two distinct things. Like southern France and >the South of France. What distinguishes them, other than those names? SignatureJohn W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> Cochrane, Alberta, Canada. "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age" John Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> wrote on 24 Feb 2004: >>West Europe and Western Europe are two distinct things. Like >>southern France and the South of France. > > What distinguishes them, other than those names? Obviously, West Europe is west of East Europe and Western Europe is west of Eastern Europe. Any fool can see that. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. >John Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> wrote on 24 Feb 2004: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Obviously, West Europe is west of East Europe and Western Europe is >west of Eastern Europe. Any fool can see that. Well, I'm not just any fool, I'm a rather special kind of fool. SignatureJohn W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> Cochrane, Alberta, Canada. "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age" John Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> wrote on 24 Feb 2004: >>John Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> wrote on 24 Feb 2004: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Well, I'm not just any fool, I'm a rather special kind of fool. Like the rest of us, then, I suspect. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > Obviously, West Europe is west of East Europe and Western Europe is > west of Eastern Europe. Any fool can see that. On the other hand, from here on the West Coast, If I wanted to go to the Far East, I would travel due west. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It's not coherent, it's merely 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |focused. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Keith Moore kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > On the other hand, from here on the West Coast, If I wanted to go to > the Far East, I would travel due west. > > -- Yes, this one has puzzled me for years. Is California on the Western shore of the Pacific, or on the Eastern shore? Please explain the rationale of your answer. If you travel by boat from Los Angeles to Calcutta, does the boat travel eastwards or westwards? Does it travel westwards up to the dateline, then eastwards? Richard Chambers Leeds UK. >> On the other hand, from here on the West Coast, If I wanted to go to >> the Far East, I would travel due west. "And the wrong one I have chose".... (Damn you, Bob Hope!)...r > > On the other hand, from here on the West Coast, If I wanted to go to > > the Far East, I would travel due west. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of the Pacific, or on the Eastern shore? Please explain the rationale of > your answer. On the western coast of North America, but on the eastern shore of the Pacific. "East Pacific" and "Eastern Pacific" have long been conventional among oceanographers. Similarly, the "West Pacific" or "Western Pacific" is that part of the Pacific adjacent to the eastern coast of Asia, the Far East. > If you travel by boat from Los Angeles to Calcutta, does the boat travel > eastwards or westwards? Does it travel westwards up to the dateline, then > eastwards? Westwards the whole way. Once it crosses the Date Line, its destination is still west of its position, so it must continue to travel west to get there. SignatureChris Green > Yes, this one has puzzled me for years. Is California on the Western shore > of the Pacific, or on the Eastern shore? Please explain the rationale of > your answer. I guess the shores are normally attributed to the land, not to the ocean. Hence the shore is not "of the Pacific" at all. The coast in California is the West Coast (of the U.S or North America) and the shore is the Pacific Shore, if anything. Similarly, the North Sea is the sea by East Coast of England and Scotland, by the West Coast of Denmark, by the North Coast of Holland, and - well - by the North Sea Coast of Germany. The international name seems to be taken from Dutch; in Danish that same sea -- or at least the parts closest to Denmark -- is also known as Vesterhavet, which is Danish for "the West Sea". > If you travel by boat from Los Angeles to Calcutta, does the boat travel > eastwards or westwards? Does it travel westwards up to the dateline, then > eastwards? It goes westwards all the time, assuming of course that it goes there by crossing the Pacific, not via Panama and Suez. Westwards is simply the general direction towards the setting sun (except near the poles, where this concept is not so well-defined). > "Richard Chambers" <richard.chambers7@NOSPAMntlworld.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I guess the shores are normally attributed to the land, not to the > ocean. Hence the shore is not "of the Pacific" at all. Well, that's not entirely true. Those expressions are not often needed by the layman, but they do exist. "Western shore of the Pacific" and "eastern shore of the Pacific" get a couple hundred Google hits each, and they are used to mean exactly what I would expect them to mean. California, for example, would be on the eastern shore of the Pacific. Some examples: the Sea of Cortez boasts the greatest variety of fishes and marine invertebrates found anywhere along the eastern shore of the Pacific Ocean. Balboa, Vasco Numez de, 1475 - 1519, Spanish, Crossed Isthmus of Panama; first European to reach eastern shore of the Pacific This allows the warm "pile" of water normally held against the western shore of the Pacific to move eastward along the equator. [snip] > > If you travel by boat from Los Angeles to Calcutta, does the boat travel > > eastwards or westwards? Does it travel westwards up to the dateline, > > then eastwards? He's got to be joking, he's got to be joking... I must stop myself from explaining what "west" is... SignatureWest wishes -- Donna Richoux > > "Richard Chambers" <richard.chambers7@NOSPAMntlworld.com> wrote [...] > > > If you travel by boat from Los Angeles to Calcutta, does the boat travel > > > eastwards or westwards? Does it travel westwards up to the dateline, > > > then eastwards? > > He's got to be joking, he's got to be joking... I must stop myself from > explaining what "west" is... It seems to me that when I traveled from Los Angeles to Calcutta I went eastward as well as westward. I went westward at an average speed of ten knots, but I could equally well say that I went eastward at an average speed of minus ten knots. >>> Yes, this one has puzzled me for years. Is California on the Western >>> shore of the Pacific, or on the Eastern shore? Please explain the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and they are used to mean exactly what I would expect them to mean. > California, for example, would be on the eastern shore of the Pacific. That is also reinforced by the term 'Pacific Rim', which gets rather a lot of use these days. Perhaps it isn't heard much in Denmark, though. -- Regards John > > Well, that's not entirely true. Those expressions are not often needed > > by the layman, but they do exist. "Western shore of the Pacific" and > > "eastern shore of the Pacific" get a couple hundred Google hits each, > > and they are used to mean exactly what I would expect them to mean. > > California, for example, would be on the eastern shore of the Pacific. Northwestern and northeastern Pacific are, I'm sure, quite widely used ... I've done it myself: "... they are also known as hurricanes in the northeastern Pacific, but as typhoons in the northwestern Pacific." > That is also reinforced by the term 'Pacific Rim', which gets rather a > lot of use these days. Perhaps it isn't heard much in Denmark, though. Sounds exciting ... arresting even. Philip Eden } CyberCypher <cybercypher2002_NETSCAPE_@NOSPAM.net> writes: } }> Obviously, West Europe is west of East Europe and Western Europe is }> west of Eastern Europe. Any fool can see that. } } On the other hand, from here on the West Coast, If I wanted to go to } the Far East, I would travel due west. Not northwest or west-northwest? _Due_ west? SignatureR. J. Valentine <mailto:32points@wicked.smart.net> N NbNE NNE NEbN NE NEbE ENE EbNE E EbSE ESE SEbE SE SEbS SSE SbSE S SbSW SSW SWbS SW SWbW WSW WbSW W WbNW WNW NWbW NW NWbN NNW NbNW > } CyberCypher <cybercypher2002_NETSCAPE_@NOSPAM.net> writes: > } [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Not northwest or west-northwest? _Due_ west? You have a desire to go to Kamchatka? Tokyo is about as due west of Los Angeles as you can get. The "East Indies" are on the equator. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > } On the other hand, from here on the West Coast, If I wanted to go > } to the Far East, I would travel due west. > > Not northwest or west-northwest? _Due_ west? Okay, I guess great circle distance is less if I start northwest. Looking at latitude, if I travel due west the first land mass I hit is the main island of Japan. Going further, I hit Korea, then China. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |_Bauplan_ is just the German word 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |for blueprint. Typically, one Palo Alto, CA 94304 |switches languages to indicate |profundity. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Richard Dawkins (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>Obviously, West Europe is west of East Europe and Western Europe is >>west of Eastern Europe. Any fool can see that. > > On the other hand, from here on the West Coast, If I wanted to go to > the Far East, I would travel due west. And if I wanted to reach the West Coast, I would fly East. Of course, if I wanted to reach the West Coast of Australia, I'd just hop on a bus. SignatureRob Bannister Western Australia > >>West Europe and Western Europe are two distinct things. Like > >>southern France and the South of France. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Obviously, West Europe is west of East Europe and Western Europe is > west of Eastern Europe. Any fool can see that. Where does Central Europe fit into this scheme? Richard Chambers Leeds UK. "Richard Chambers" <richard.chambers7@NOSPAMntlworld.com> wrote on 25 Feb 2004: >> >>West Europe and Western Europe are two distinct things. Like >> >>southern France and the South of France. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Where does Central Europe fit into this scheme? Dead in the middle, west of East and Eastern Europe and east of West and Western Europe. All the Europes are in some geographical relation or other to each other. This is incontrovertable. It’s comforting to know that some things are certain. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. >...All the Europes are in some geographical relation >or other to each other. This is incontrovertable. Its comforting to >know that some things are certain. What about "Europe in Asia"? (3610 GoogleHits) SignatureJohn W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> Cochrane, Alberta, Canada. "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age" > "Richard Chambers" <richard.chambers7@NOSPAMntlworld.com> wrote on 25 > Feb 2004: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > or other to each other. This is incontrovertable. It’s comforting to > know that some things are certain. No, no. Central Europe is somewhere around Bohemia, which is pretty far East as far as Western Europeans think. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote on 26 Feb 2004: >> "Richard Chambers" <richard.chambers7@NOSPAMntlworld.com> wrote >> on 25 Feb 2004: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > No, no. Central Europe is somewhere around Bohemia, which is > pretty far East as far as Western Europeans think. Now you've gone and caused me to feel uncomfortable, Robert. I thought Bohemia was a beer from Milwaukee (but it's actually "Brewed and bottled by Cerveceria Cuauhtemoc, S. A. DE C. V. Monterrey, N. I. Mexico" http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/beershots/beers/bohemia.html). SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote on 26 Feb 2004: >>No, no. Central Europe is somewhere around Bohemia, which is >>pretty far East as far as Western Europeans think. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > bottled by Cerveceria Cuauhtemoc, S. A. DE C. V. Monterrey, N. I. > Mexico" http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/beershots/beers/bohemia.html). If 'Central Europe' is in Mexico, that could explain a lot of strange things. SignatureRob Bannister > Where does Central Europe fit into this scheme? I think part of Central Europe is in Eastern Europe. At least, it seems to be. Prague used to be in Eastern Europe and in West Europe at the same time, but not in Western Europe. It's not in Eastern Europe any more, but I don't know whether it's in Western Europe yet or not. \\P. Schultz The Grammer Genious typed thus: > > Where does Central Europe fit into this scheme? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in Western Europe. It's not in Eastern Europe any more, but I don't know whether > it's in Western Europe yet or not. It is now in Central Europe, and will also be in Western Europe from 1st May 2004. SignatureDavid ===== >> Where does Central Europe fit into this scheme? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > time, but not in Western Europe. It's not in Eastern Europe any more, > but I don't know whether it's in Western Europe yet or not. Some interesting points of view on this question can be found here: http://www.ce-review.org/00/36/books36_nilsson.html SignatureMichael West > >> Where does Central Europe fit into this scheme? > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > can be found here: > http://www.ce-review.org/00/36/books36_nilsson.html A familiar discussion in the US, I think. Where does Midwestern Europe begin and end" >>West Europe and Western Europe are two distinct things. Like southern France and >>the South of France. > >What distinguishes them, other than those names? West Europe is geographical, Western Europe is cultural. I'd think of West Europe as Ireland, France, Spain and Portugal. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >>West Europe and Western Europe are two distinct things. Like southern France and > >>the South of France. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I'd think of West Europe as Ireland, France, Spain and Portugal. How 'bout Iceland? SignatureJerry Friedman >> >>West Europe and Western Europe are two distinct things. Like southern France and >> >>the South of France. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >How 'bout Iceland? Or Greenland? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >> >>West Europe and Western Europe are two distinct things. Like southern France and > >> >>the South of France. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Or Greenland? Iceland is a European country, Greenland is in North-America. >>>West Europe and Western Europe are two distinct things. Like >>>southern France and the South of France. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I'd think of West Europe as Ireland, France, Spain and Portugal. In the documents concerned, the issue was the integration of the Western zones of Germany (the later West Germany) into the West, hence the significant parts of "West Europe" were the UK, France and the Benelux countries, who, together with Italy and Western Germany, formed the European Defence Community (EDC) and the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC), core of the later EU. I would suspect that "West Germany" was meant neither geographical nor cultural, but political. I noticed that "West European" has much greater currency than "West Europe", compared to their "Western" counterparts. SignatureOliver Cromm >I noticed that "West European" has much greater currency than "West >Europe", compared to their "Western" counterparts. Yes, when people are referring to the countries with Atlantic coasts, I've heard "the west of Europe" much more often than "west Europe". -- Ross Howard |
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