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Effin & Jeffin

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John Dean - 13 Dec 2008 13:23 GMT
Effin & Jeffin - up there with Flotsam & Jetsam? Laurel & Hardy? Wilson,
Keppel & Betty?
The local authority in Preston, Lancs, have decided to impose penalties for
anti-social behaviour, including swearing in public which they coyly
describe as "effin & jeffin".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3692394/City-centre-intr
oduces-a-zero-tolerance-policy-against-swearing.html


http://tinyurl.com/55nrtm

"Messages against bad languages include "No 'Effin & 'Jeffin" and "No Aggro"
which can be read on signs and banners across Preston, Lancashire. Other
reminders are "No Pavement Pizza" which depicts a person being sick in the
street and "Don't Pee Anti-Social" which shows someone urinating in a public
place.
The £20,000 'Respect our city' scheme is designed to reduce anti-social
behaviour such as swearing, spitting, litter dropping and dog fouling.
Police can give out fixed penalty notices of up to £80 for various public
order offences while council officers can impose £75 on-the-spot fines for
litter offences. "
Signature

John Dean
Oxford

Django Cat - 13 Dec 2008 14:38 GMT
> John Dean wrote

>From: "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net>
>Subject: Effin & Jeffin
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>reminders are "No Pavement Pizza" which depicts a person being sick in the
>street

In Glasgow the description is more phonetic: 'see Hughie and Ralph'.

DC
--
Irwell - 13 Dec 2008 16:58 GMT
> Effin & Jeffin - up there with Flotsam & Jetsam? Laurel & Hardy? Wilson,
> Keppel & Betty?
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> order offences while council officers can impose £75 on-the-spot fines for
> litter offences. "

Effing and blinding is what I used to hear?
tinwhistler - 13 Dec 2008 18:58 GMT
> Effin & Jeffin - up there with Flotsam & Jetsam? Laurel & Hardy? Wilson,
> Keppel & Betty?
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> John Dean
> Oxford

The take-off in The Spoof has this topical rejoinder:
Norman Springbok, spokesprat for the freedom and civil liberties
campaign group Expletives-R-Us, told reporters "They can't do this.
It's every Englishman's right to go out and get pissed-rotten drunk at
Christmas, then stand in the middle of the street takin' a slash and
gobbin' off at passers-by. It's all part of our traditional Yuletide
festivities."
--
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Raymond O'Hara - 14 Dec 2008 04:23 GMT
> Effin & Jeffin - up there with Flotsam & Jetsam? Laurel & Hardy? Wilson,
> Keppel & Betty?
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> order offences while council officers can impose £75 on-the-spot fines for
> litter offences. "

A fine for puking? What do they expect you to do? You puke when you puke.
As for public urination one should be discrete but here in Massachusetts we
don't expect you to go in your pants either.
Django Cat - 14 Dec 2008 10:14 GMT
> Raymond O'Hara wrote

>>"Messages against bad languages include "No 'Effin & 'Jeffin" and "No
>>Aggro" which can be read on signs and banners across Preston, Lancashire.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>A fine for puking? What do they expect you to do? You puke when you puke.

True, but in Northern towns on a Friday or Saturday night it's more of a
lifestyle choice.

DC
--
Robin Bignall - 14 Dec 2008 22:10 GMT
>> Effin & Jeffin - up there with Flotsam & Jetsam? Laurel & Hardy? Wilson,
>> Keppel & Betty?
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>As for public urination one should be discrete but here in Massachusetts we
>don't expect you to go in your pants either.

There was a time in Britain when local councils of even small villages
were proud of the fact that they had decent public lavatories, but
we've been closing them down for decades.  Many areas now have none --
those in supermarkets and garages being private and meant for
customers.  I've read that some councils offer money to local
businesses such as supermarkets and restaurants to allow public access
to restrooms.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Irwell - 14 Dec 2008 22:38 GMT
>>> Effin & Jeffin - up there with Flotsam & Jetsam? Laurel & Hardy? Wilson,
>>> Keppel & Betty?
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> businesses such as supermarkets and restaurants to allow public access
> to restrooms.

Borders is a chain of US bookstores, they have coffeeshops, comfy leather
chairs, free headphones to listen to music CDs, and of course a wide range
of books. To use the restrooms (WCs) one now has to see one of clerks and
get a token, this because of vandalism, so even a hallowed bookshop is not
immune.
tony cooper - 14 Dec 2008 23:14 GMT
>Borders is a chain of US bookstores, they have coffeeshops, comfy leather
>chairs, free headphones to listen to music CDs, and of course a wide range
>of books. To use the restrooms (WCs) one now has to see one of clerks and
>get a token, this because of vandalism, so even a hallowed bookshop is not
>immune.

The Borders in this area have not yet taken this step.  
Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Chuck Riggs - 15 Dec 2008 10:34 GMT
>>Borders is a chain of US bookstores, they have coffeeshops, comfy leather
>>chairs, free headphones to listen to music CDs, and of course a wide range
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>The Borders in this area have not yet taken this step.  

From my memory of them, Borders primarily sells books for the Great
Unwashed and almost never for the Saints and Scholars:

http://www.borders.com/online/store/Landing?kids=false&nav=5185&type=1
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Robin Bignall - 14 Dec 2008 23:22 GMT
>>>> Effin & Jeffin - up there with Flotsam & Jetsam? Laurel & Hardy? Wilson,
>>>> Keppel & Betty?
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>get a token, this because of vandalism, so even a hallowed bookshop is not
>immune.

Many of the places that I have occasion to visit, except some
supermarkets, have disabled toilets that are kept permanently locked.
One either has to use a RADAR key (which most disabled people should
have) or ask inside the establishment.  For some reason, possibly
connected with covert hatred of disabled people that has been reported
before, toilets for the disabled are subject to frequent vandalism.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Adam Funk - 15 Dec 2008 13:06 GMT
> Many of the places that I have occasion to visit, except some
> supermarkets, have disabled toilets that are kept permanently locked.
> One either has to use a RADAR key (which most disabled people should
> have) or ask inside the establishment.  For some reason, possibly
> connected with covert hatred of disabled people that has been reported
> before, toilets for the disabled are subject to frequent vandalism.

I've been assuming that these toilets are locked because as
single-occupancy rooms they would be better locations for taking
drugs.  (On a related note, some city-centre toilets have bluish
lighting that is supposed to make it harder to spot your veins.)

Signature

The wonderful thing about standards is that there are so
many of them to choose from.       [Grace Murray Hopper]

HVS - 15 Dec 2008 13:30 GMT
On 15 Dec 2008, Adam Funk wrote

>> Many of the places that I have occasion to visit, except some
>> supermarkets, have disabled toilets that are kept permanently
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> single-occupancy rooms they would be better locations for taking
> drugs.

I'd never thought of that;  seems eminently logical.

Signature

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Robin Bignall - 15 Dec 2008 21:48 GMT
>On 15 Dec 2008, Adam Funk wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>I'd never thought of that;  seems eminently logical.

And for other things.  Once, I was waiting for an occupied one when
the door swung open and a teenage girl came out looking flushed and
fastening her blouse, followed by a young man zipping up his trousers.

My first AUE boink was a meeting with Graeme Thomas in a hotel where
he was running a Scrabble competition. There was a wedding reception
going on in another room and the disabled toilet was occupied a long
time by a perfectly able-bodied man who was changing into his dinner
suit.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

the Omrud - 15 Dec 2008 22:18 GMT
> My first AUE boink was a meeting with Graeme Thomas in a hotel where
> he was running a Scrabble competition. There was a wedding reception
> going on in another room and the disabled toilet was occupied a long
> time by a perfectly able-bodied man who was changing into his dinner
> suit.

Not a choral singer then.  I have decades of practice at getting into my
dinner suit in the most inconvenient places.  I don't hang about.

Signature

David

TsuiDF - 16 Dec 2008 20:58 GMT
> > My first AUE boink was a meeting with Graeme Thomas in a hotel where
> > he was running a Scrabble competition. There was a wedding reception
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Not a choral singer then.  I have decades of practice at getting into my
> dinner suit in the most inconvenient places.  I don't hang about.

Not an amateur flamenco dancer either.  This year alone our entire
troupe have changed into clothing a bit more complicated than dinner
suits in: the minuscule kitchen of a rather crowded bar; the hallway
of a very historic town hall; the smoking space of a local restaurant;
the physiotherapy room of a retirement home.... In short, WIWAL we'd
have thought we'd died and gone to heaven if we had a disabled toilet!

It's not really the clothes that are so tricky -- it's the lighting
and the availability of mirrors for doing make-up and complicated hair
ornaments that really gets to you.

cheers,
S in B
the Omrud - 16 Dec 2008 22:30 GMT
>>> My first AUE boink was a meeting with Graeme Thomas in a hotel where
>>> he was running a Scrabble competition. There was a wedding reception
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> and the availability of mirrors for doing make-up and complicated hair
> ornaments that really gets to you.

Quite.

Signature

David

LFS - 16 Dec 2008 21:13 GMT
>> Many of the places that I have occasion to visit, except some
>> supermarkets, have disabled toilets that are kept permanently locked.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> drugs.  (On a related note, some city-centre toilets have bluish
> lighting that is supposed to make it harder to spot your veins.)

I first encountered the blue lighting in Switzerland where it has been
common in public toilets for at least the last decade. I haven't noticed
it in the UK, though.

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Nick - 17 Dec 2008 07:24 GMT
> I first encountered the blue lighting in Switzerland where it has been
> common in public toilets for at least the last decade. I haven't noticed
> it in the UK, though.

I have in a fair number of town centre pub toilets.  And, rather to my
disconcertenment, on Oxford buses (park and ride to city centre).
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Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
Experimental version; http://canalplan.eu

Mark Brader - 18 Dec 2008 00:36 GMT
Laura Spira:
>> I first encountered the blue lighting in Switzerland where it has been
>> common in public toilets for at least the last decade. I haven't noticed
>> it in the UK, though.
 
"Nick":
> I have in a fair number of town centre pub toilets.  And, rather to my
> disconcertenment,

Interesting wordenment.

> on Oxford buses (park and ride to city centre).

On buses it is more likely to be used because drivers have complained
about reflections when normal lighting is used.  I have seen buses with
dim blue lighting only near the front in a number of places.
Signature

Mark Brader   |   "And don't forget there were five separate computers
msb@vex.net   |    in those days."
Toronto       |         -- Bob NE20G3018 (Ira Levin, "This Perfect Day")

Raymond O'Hara - 20 Dec 2008 03:13 GMT
>>>> Effin & Jeffin - up there with Flotsam & Jetsam? Laurel & Hardy?
>>>> Wilson,
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> get a token, this because of vandalism, so even a hallowed bookshop is not
> immune.

I wandered into the Trader Vic's near Central Park and asked for directionas
to the rest room.
They informed me they were just for patrons, I informed him "I'll sh.t on
your floor before I sh.t in my pants" they showed me the way to them.
Roland Hutchinson - 15 Dec 2008 03:32 GMT
> There was a time in Britain when local councils of even small villages
> were proud of the fact that they had decent public lavatories, but
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> businesses such as supermarkets and restaurants to allow public access
> to restrooms.

I think we've discussed that here before.  It turns out to be a good deal
all around: the council gets facilities for less than it would cost to
build and maintain their own freestanding loos; the shops and restaurants
get a subsidy that makes it worth their while to open their facilities to
all, and they also get some extra customers who come to pee and stay (or
return) to purchase.

Signature

Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.

Mike Lyle - 15 Dec 2008 21:08 GMT
>> There was a time in Britain when local councils of even small
>> villages were proud of the fact that they had decent public
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> their facilities to all, and they also get some extra customers who
> come to pee and stay (or return) to purchase.

Or, in the case of the Richmond Waitrose, the shop would get a
disgruntled queue of leg-crossed writhers waiting for the single lav.
Mind you, the Tesco down the road has no provision at all for the
bladderially overladen customer.

Signature

Mike.

John Dean - 15 Dec 2008 23:11 GMT
>>> There was a time in Britain when local councils of even small
>>> villages were proud of the fact that they had decent public
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Mind you, the Tesco down the road has no provision at all for the
> bladderially overladen customer.

Nor does our Co-op. They rebuilt the store several years ago and included a
facility for washing your hands (literally, washing your hands) *in the
middle of the store*. Presumably for those who got a little gritty from
fondling the fruit and veg (literally, fruit and veg).
Our Somerfield has a handy little bog, though, and it is placed so far back
and is unsignposted that only hardy regulars know how to get to it, thereby
reducing potential queues.
And now, of course, Somerfield has been sold to the Co-op and we are waiting
with various bits bated (predominantly breath) and crossed (legs and fingers
in the main) to see which WC policy will survive the acquisition.
And our City Council are already discussing toilet closure and use of
private toilets as public:

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/headlines/3957295.Toilet_closures_investigated/
http://tinyurl.com/6l469h

"Cash-strapped Oxford City Council has a report which highlights a saving of
£50,000 a year for three years if it closed 11 suburban toilets ... The
council is also considering introducing charges at toilets and asking pubs
and restaurants to open up their loos to the public."
Signature

John Dean
Oxford

Irwell - 16 Dec 2008 00:06 GMT
>>>> There was a time in Britain when local councils of even small
>>>> villages were proud of the fact that they had decent public
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> council is also considering introducing charges at toilets and asking pubs
> and restaurants to open up their loos to the public."

'Gardez loo' takes on a new meaning.
Roland Hutchinson - 16 Dec 2008 04:52 GMT
>> "Cash-strapped Oxford City Council has a report which highlights a saving
>> of £50,000 a year for three years if it closed 11 suburban toilets ...
>> The council is also considering introducing charges at toilets and asking
>> pubs and restaurants to open up their loos to the public."
>
> 'Gardez loo' takes on a new meaning.

I'm still contemplating "suburban toilet".

Meanwhile, I very recently discovered that my local supermarket (an
A&P "Fresh" store -- I wonder what they have in the non-Fresh ones) has a
public convenience, has had it for years, identified by a conspicuous sign,
located in a high-traffic area of the store, and I had walked past it
hundereds of times without noticing it.

Necessity, as it is said, is the mother of invention.

Signature

Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.

LFS - 16 Dec 2008 21:22 GMT
>>>> There was a time in Britain when local councils of even small
>>>> villages were proud of the fact that they had decent public
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> middle of the store*. Presumably for those who got a little gritty from
> fondling the fruit and veg (literally, fruit and veg).

The cause of considerable local puzzlement.

> Our Somerfield has a handy little bog, though, and it is placed so far back
> and is unsignposted that only hardy regulars know how to get to it, thereby
> reducing potential queues.

I had no idea, thanks for the tip. I offer one in return, see below.

> And now, of course, Somerfield has been sold to the Co-op and we are waiting
> with various bits bated (predominantly breath) and crossed (legs and fingers
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> council is also considering introducing charges at toilets and asking pubs
> and restaurants to open up their loos to the public."

In city centres I have found it useful to stride purposefully into the
nearest large hotel (the posher the better) and seek out their
facilities. The less formidable may choose to dissemble by speaking into
a mobile phone and pretending to be en route to a business meeting: many
people seem to conduct business in hotel lounges these days. For
example, disembarking from the Oxford Tube at Marble Arch one can use
the Marriott Park Lane which is conveniently near the bus stop (the loos
are downstairs and are equipped with good soap and real towels).

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Mike Lyle - 16 Dec 2008 21:59 GMT
[...]>
> In city centres I have found it useful to stride purposefully into the
> nearest large hotel (the posher the better) and seek out their
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> stop (the loos are downstairs and are equipped with good soap and
> real towels).

Does the London office of American Express still have fine facilities
downstairs? It was amusing to see American students having a "good wash"
in there. Sudden horror: does the place even exist any more?

I was once with an Aus cousin (by marriage, I hasten to add) and his
three-year-old son in the undergound car park of the Houses of
Parliament (no, I don't remember why), when the 3-y-o reported a full
bladder. Cousin-by-marriage selected a Rolls-Royce and got 3-y-o to
disburse on one of its wheels.

Signature

Mike.

John Holmes - 20 Dec 2008 10:13 GMT
> I was once with an Aus cousin (by marriage, I hasten to add) and his
> three-year-old son in the undergound car park of the Houses of
> Parliament (no, I don't remember why), when the 3-y-o reported a full
> bladder. Cousin-by-marriage selected a Rolls-Royce and got 3-y-o to
> disburse on one of its wheels.

The near-side rear wheel, perchance?

Signature

Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

Maria C. - 16 Dec 2008 20:48 GMT
>>> There was a time in Britain when local councils of even small
>>> villages were proud of the fact that they had decent public
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Mind you, the Tesco down the road has no provision at all for the
> bladderially overladen customer.

I've missed some of this thread; if there were mentions of "lavs" or
"restrooms" in US stores, I haven't seen them.

Nowadays, there are public restrooms (or "rest rooms," two words) in
just about all retail outlets, including grocery stores and gas
stations. There are signs pointing the way to them.

But in the past (say 30-40 years ago and beyond) public restrooms did
not exist in most US stores, especially smaller ones; large department
stores were the exception.[1]

Most, if not all, small stores had restrooms/toilets on the premises,
but they were marked "Employees Only." Since employees often used that
room for storing their purses, coats, etc., there was no way they were
going to let a customer use it. (It was kept locked.)

Gas stations had public toilets, but they were reached via outside
entrances only; sometimes they were simple "outhouses." Now you enter
gas station restrooms them from inside the "store."[2] In my own
experience, I'd say they're nice and clean at least 50% of the time.

Restrooms were almost always available in restaurants. (I'd say "always"
but there were surely some exceptions somewhere.)

Also: What BrE posters call a "disabled" toilet would be a
"handicap[ped] accessible" toilet (or simply the "handicapped") in the
US. (I've heard some call it the "paraplegic" toilet or even the
"handycrapper.") A "disabled toilet" would indicate, to many Americans,
that the toilet is not working.

[1] And they were "pay" toilets. When empty, a little slide panel by the
lock said "Vacant"; when they were in use, the little panel said
"Occupied." You inserted a coin to get into a vacant stall. (A coin
would not allow access to an Occupied stall.) When you slid the lock
closed from inside, the "little panel" changed from "Vacant" to
"Occupied." When the facility was crowded, women exiting a stall usually
held the door open for the next woman in line so that she needed no
coin. I may be forgetting a detail or two, but that's the way it all
worked.

[2] A store inside a gas station is of the class called "convenience
stores" (also known as "C-stores") among certain vendors.

Signature

Maria
I've reread all the above, and probably missed a glaring error. Does
that make me some classification of an "erring glarer"?

Mike Lyle - 16 Dec 2008 20:47 GMT
[...]

> [1] And they were "pay" toilets. When empty, a little slide panel by
> the lock said "Vacant"; when they were in use, the little panel said
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> needed no coin. I may be forgetting a detail or two, but that's the
> way it all worked.
[...]

The old Sterlingetc pay-as-you-goes had marvellous over-engineered brass
contraptions on the doors. The visitor had to put in one of those lovely
old huge bronze pennies, hence the still-extant expression "spend a
penny". When locked, the slide on the outside read not "Occupied" but
"Engaged".

George Bernard Shaw listed it as one of his proudest achievements that,
when a London County Councillor, he had successfully campaigned for the
remission of the admission charge. (Or is that my memory doing its
newish party trick?)

I feel sure I haven't imagined that some British public non-lav had the
same devices to let one in for a penny. That capricious and  hazy memory
is trying to tell me it was Kew Gardens, but that doesn't seem right.

Signature

Mike.

LFS - 16 Dec 2008 21:28 GMT
> [...]
>> [1] And they were "pay" toilets. When empty, a little slide panel by
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> remission of the admission charge. (Or is that my memory doing its
> newish party trick?)

Barbara Castle subsequently did sterling work for ladies.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,895553,00.html

> I feel sure I haven't imagined that some British public non-lav had the
> same devices to let one in for a penny. That capricious and  hazy memory
> is trying to tell me it was Kew Gardens, but that doesn't seem right.

I'm sure that there were turnstiles operated by the insertion of a coin
in non-lav places when I was young. Kew may well have been one, Southend
Pier was probably another.

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

the Omrud - 16 Dec 2008 22:34 GMT
>> I feel sure I haven't imagined that some British public non-lav had
>> the same devices to let one in for a penny. That capricious and  hazy
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> in non-lav places when I was young. Kew may well have been one, Southend
> Pier was probably another.

In the 60s, Jephson Gardens in Leamington and Cromer Pier both admitted
entrance through a turnstile on the insertion of a penny.

Signature

David

tony cooper - 17 Dec 2008 01:56 GMT
>> I feel sure I haven't imagined that some British public non-lav had the
>> same devices to let one in for a penny. That capricious and  hazy memory
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>in non-lav places when I was young. Kew may well have been one, Southend
>Pier was probably another.

It required a penny to get into the stall in several places in Ireland
and Scotland in 1969.  I don't remember finding them in England,
though.  My wife was pregnant on that trip and spent several pennies.

Once, without a penny, my wife scooted under a door in Scotland.  She
slid through sidewise since that was a lower profile than on her back
or front.  

The door was not a full door and stopped well-short of the floor.
Almost an invitation to bypass the toll.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 16 Dec 2008 21:42 GMT
>The old Sterlingetc pay-as-you-goes had marvellous over-engineered brass
>contraptions on the doors. The visitor had to put in one of those lovely
>old huge bronze pennies, hence the still-extant expression "spend a
>penny". When locked, the slide on the outside read not "Occupied" but
>"Engaged".

Here is one:
http://www.pottostation.co.uk/images/Spend_A_Penny.jpg

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Mike Lyle - 16 Dec 2008 22:33 GMT
>> The old Sterlingetc pay-as-you-goes had marvellous over-engineered
>> brass contraptions on the doors. The visitor had to put in one of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Here is one:
> http://www.pottostation.co.uk/images/Spend_A_Penny.jpg

Ah, Potto! Where the Prestons come from: the place must be real after
all, and not an invention of the late Oliver Postgate.

But that's a v. fine example of Messrs Lockerbie and Wilkinson's
handiwork. I don't think I ever saw one so sophisticated that it would
accept two halfpennies. And I bet there won't be many present-day
coin-op things still opping when a hundred years old, as I'm sure most
or all of those would.

Signature

Mike.

Irwell - 16 Dec 2008 23:26 GMT
>>> The old Sterlingetc pay-as-you-goes had marvellous over-engineered
>>> brass contraptions on the doors. The visitor had to put in one of
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> coin-op things still opping when a hundred years old, as I'm sure most
> or all of those would.

The old Button "A" "B" telephone coin acceptors did a very
good for their time.

Present day coin acceptors are more sophisticated, they measure thickness,
diameter, magnetic content and weight. Decide the amount accepted, vend the
product, give change and reject unacceptable coins.
Maria C. - 17 Dec 2008 00:35 GMT
Mike Lyle wrote, in part:

> The old Sterlingetc pay-as-you-goes had marvellous over-engineered
> brass contraptions on the doors. The visitor had to put in one of
> those lovely old huge bronze pennies, hence the still-extant
> expression "spend a penny". When locked, the slide on the outside
> read not "Occupied" but "Engaged".

I first encountered a "pay" toilet when I was around six years old, so
that would have been in the late 1940s. It seems to me that the coin
involved was a dime.* (This was the the now-defunct J.L. Hudson Store in
downtown Detroit.)

*A dime is ten cents. The coin box would have held more dimes than it
could nickels (worth five cents), and thus would have meant emptying the
box less often.

Signature

Maria C.

Barbara Bailey - 25 Dec 2008 22:06 GMT
> I first encountered a "pay" toilet when I was around six years old, so
> that would have been in the late 1940s. It seems to me that the coin
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> could nickels (worth five cents), and thus would have meant emptying the
> box less often.

Thee were still pay toilets in the rest rooms of the big department store
(Goldblatts) in the town I grew up in (Aurora, Illinois) in the 60s. And
yes, it was a dime. By the time I graduated from high school in 1976,
Goldblatt's was long gone, and as far as I know, so were all the pay
toilets in town.
Chuck Riggs - 26 Dec 2008 10:15 GMT
>> I first encountered a "pay" toilet when I was around six years old, so
>> that would have been in the late 1940s. It seems to me that the coin
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Goldblatt's was long gone, and as far as I know, so were all the pay
>toilets in town.

I don't know about the ones at Goldblatts but it was my experience as
a young man sometimes short of a dime that the collecting agent of
most pay toilets can be subverted by either shimmying under the door
or climbing over the enclosure. Problem solved.
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Maria C. - 27 Dec 2008 20:48 GMT
>>> I first encountered a "pay" toilet when I was around six years old,
>>> so that would have been in the late 1940s. It seems to me that the
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> most pay toilets can be subverted by either shimmying under the door
> or climbing over the enclosure. Problem solved.

Please see my reply to Barbara. No doubt you're a better candidate than
she would be about whether or not men/boys needed to pay for a urinial
or just for a toilet.

And were there uniformed attendants in the mens room? I think there were
in the ladies room at Hudson's -- at least sometimes. They offered
towels after you'd washed your hands. Their main job may have been
watching the ladies put money in the toilet admission boxes, though.

Signature

Maria C.

Sara Lorimer - 27 Dec 2008 21:40 GMT
> And were there uniformed attendants in the mens room? I think there were
> in the ladies room at Hudson's -- at least sometimes. They offered
> towels after you'd washed your hands. Their main job may have been
> watching the ladies put money in the toilet admission boxes, though.

The last time I remeber seeing a restroom attendant was at a boink, of
all places, held in a Harley Davidson Cafe, of all places.

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SML

Maria C. - 27 Dec 2008 23:10 GMT
>> And were there uniformed attendants in the mens room? I think there
>> were in the ladies room at Hudson's -- at least sometimes. They
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The last time I remeber seeing a restroom attendant was at a boink, of
> all places, held in a Harley Davidson Cafe, of all places.

How was she dressed?

Signature

Maria C.

Sara Lorimer - 28 Dec 2008 00:07 GMT
> > The last time I remeber seeing a restroom attendant was at a boink, of
> > all places, held in a Harley Davidson Cafe, of all places.
>
> How was she dressed?

I have a mental image of her wearing a polo shirt and khakis, but could
be misremembering.

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SML

Maria C. - 28 Dec 2008 02:59 GMT
>>> The last time I remeber seeing a restroom attendant was at a boink,
>>> of all places, held in a Harley Davidson Cafe, of all places.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I have a mental image of her wearing a polo shirt and khakis, but
> could be misremembering.

Oh. I was figuring at least /some/ leather.

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Maria C.

Chuck Riggs - 28 Dec 2008 09:51 GMT
>>> And were there uniformed attendants in the mens room? I think there
>>> were in the ladies room at Hudson's -- at least sometimes. They
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>How was she dressed?

If you're in parts of Europe the attendant can be of either sex.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Chuck Riggs - 28 Dec 2008 09:49 GMT
>>>> I first encountered a "pay" toilet when I was around six years old,
>>>> so that would have been in the late 1940s. It seems to me that the
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>towels after you'd washed your hands. Their main job may have been
>watching the ladies put money in the toilet admission boxes, though.

Where there are attendants there is never, in my experience, a charge
to use the room. The custom in such fancy places is to leave him or
her a few coins, if you like, as you leave. Personally, I'd find it
difficult not to.
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Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Pat Durkin - 28 Dec 2008 15:47 GMT
>>>>> I first encountered a "pay" toilet when I was around six years
>>>>> old, so that would have been in the late 1940s. It seems to me
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> her a few coins, if you like, as you leave. Personally, I'd find it
> difficult not to.

Well, I always thought it amounted to a kind of extortion, what with the
attendant standing there offering a towel.  (Kind of a "hint, hint,
nudge, wink" so one couldn't miss the tip plate at the sink.)
Chuck Riggs - 29 Dec 2008 09:58 GMT
>>>>>> I first encountered a "pay" toilet when I was around six years
>>>>>> old, so that would have been in the late 1940s. It seems to me
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>attendant standing there offering a towel.  (Kind of a "hint, hint,
>nudge, wink" so one couldn't miss the tip plate at the sink.)

There were no threats made, so there was no extortion, not that these
generally gentle people were in any position to be threatening. They
provide a welcome service, as I see it, so I pay. Fair enough.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Pat Durkin - 29 Dec 2008 15:37 GMT
>>>>>>> I first encountered a "pay" toilet when I was around six years
>>>>>>> old, so that would have been in the late 1940s. It seems to me
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> generally gentle people were in any position to be threatening. They
> provide a welcome service, as I see it, so I pay. Fair enough.

You know, Chuck, when a guy stands in front of my exit door with a hand
out (whether it hold a towel or a gat), it is extortion.  If I don't
wish to wash my hands, that's my business, and if I do so choose to
wash, I can also choose to shake dry or use my shirt as a towel.  And I
shouldn't have to say "Excuse me" as I step around him.

Bah!  Humbug!  (Hope you had a good Christmas, Chuck.)
tony cooper - 29 Dec 2008 17:01 GMT
>> There were no threats made, so there was no extortion, not that these
>> generally gentle people were in any position to be threatening. They
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Bah!  Humbug!  (Hope you had a good Christmas, Chuck.)

The bad guy here is the owner.  Rather than employ someone to keep the
restroom tidy, he puts someone in there that the customers pay to do
the job.  

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Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Robin Bignall - 29 Dec 2008 21:28 GMT
>>> There were no threats made, so there was no extortion, not that these
>>> generally gentle people were in any position to be threatening. They
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>restroom tidy, he puts someone in there that the customers pay to do
>the job.  

How does that differ from restaurants, where the Scrooge-ish owners
make their wait staff depend on tips to make a living?
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

tony cooper - 30 Dec 2008 00:48 GMT
>>>> There were no threats made, so there was no extortion, not that these
>>>> generally gentle people were in any position to be threatening. They
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>How does that differ from restaurants, where the Scrooge-ish owners
>make their wait staff depend on tips to make a living?

If one person, part-time, could serve all of the tables the entire
time the restaurant is open, then it would be the same.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Chuck Riggs - 30 Dec 2008 10:49 GMT
>>>>> There were no threats made, so there was no extortion, not that these
>>>>> generally gentle people were in any position to be threatening. They
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>If one person, part-time, could serve all of the tables the entire
>time the restaurant is open, then it would be the same.

The demands are different, obviously, but both waiters and cleaners
deserve a return for the work they do. No one is in a better position
to judge what is an equitable bonus for this work than the customer.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Chuck Riggs - 30 Dec 2008 10:43 GMT
>>> There were no threats made, so there was no extortion, not that these
>>> generally gentle people were in any position to be threatening. They
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>restroom tidy, he puts someone in there that the customers pay to do
>the job.  

Would you like the job? I know I wouldn't. In addition to what the
employer pays him, he certainly deserves a bonus from the user,
especially if his service is exemplary.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Chuck Riggs - 30 Dec 2008 10:38 GMT
>>>>>>>> I first encountered a "pay" toilet when I was around six years
>>>>>>>> old, so that would have been in the late 1940s. It seems to me
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>wash, I can also choose to shake dry or use my shirt as a towel.  And I
>shouldn't have to say "Excuse me" as I step around him.

Do you not appreciate a clean, well-lighted place to poo? If an
attendant can make that possible, he at least deserves a few of my
coins. That is not extortion; that is an exchange of money for service
rendered.

>Bah!  Humbug!  (Hope you had a good Christmas, Chuck.)

Thank you, Pat, but since my favourite day of this season is 2
January, I am looking forward to Friday.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Adam Funk - 06 Jan 2009 21:48 GMT
>>You know, Chuck, when a guy stands in front of my exit door with a hand
>>out (whether it hold a towel or a gat), it is extortion.  If I don't
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> coins. That is not extortion; that is an exchange of money for service
> rendered.

That sounds reasonable, especially if it means I get a proper way to
dry my hands instead of those useless, noisy, irritating electric
dryers.  (The people who procure those should not be allowed to have
towels in their homes.)

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HVS - 06 Jan 2009 22:08 GMT
On 06 Jan 2009, Adam Funk wrote

> That sounds reasonable, especially if it means I get a proper
> way to dry my hands instead of those useless, noisy, irritating
> electric dryers.  (The people who procure those should not be
> allowed to have towels in their homes.)

I agree -- hate the things -- but the new ones designed by Dyson
(which I've used at Waterloo Station) seem to have greatly improved
on the idea.

http://www.dysonairblade.co.uk/

Signature

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Leslie Danks - 06 Jan 2009 22:25 GMT
> On 06 Jan 2009, Adam Funk wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> http://www.dysonairblade.co.uk/

A few years ago, somewhere near Charing Cross station, I happened into a
wine bar/restaurant whose gents' toilet sported a hot air hand drier of
such ferocity and power that it must have once propelled the Concord. I
suspect that whenever someone dried his hands, the lights started to go out
all over Europe.

Signature

Les (BrE)

LFS - 06 Jan 2009 22:30 GMT
> On 06 Jan 2009, Adam Funk wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> http://www.dysonairblade.co.uk/

Fantastic, aren't they? I don't often enter into conversation in public
loos but these seem to generate much approving chat. So far I've only
encountered them at stations but I do hope they become more widely adopted.

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Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

the Omrud - 07 Jan 2009 08:22 GMT
>> On 06 Jan 2009, Adam Funk wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> loos but these seem to generate much approving chat. So far I've only
> encountered them at stations but I do hope they become more widely adopted.

Yes indeed.  Our favourite local noodle restaurant, Tampopo, has them.

OTOH, the dryers at Warwick service station sound like they're designed
for wind tunnels.

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David

Wood Avens - 07 Jan 2009 10:44 GMT
>Fantastic, aren't they? I don't often enter into conversation in public
>loos but these seem to generate much approving chat. So far I've only
>encountered them at stations but I do hope they become more widely adopted.

If it's the same thing, I came across one at Gatwick Airport.  It
practically blew me across the room -- or at least, it pushed the skin
across the backs of my hands,  a weird and memorable sensation.  

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Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

LFS - 07 Jan 2009 11:15 GMT
>> Fantastic, aren't they? I don't often enter into conversation in public
>> loos but these seem to generate much approving chat. So far I've only
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> practically blew me across the room -- or at least, it pushed the skin
> across the backs of my hands,  a weird and memorable sensation.  

The drying sensation was indeed rather unusual - I had this momentary
vision of James Dyson inside the machine towelling my hands...

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 07 Jan 2009 12:22 GMT
>>> Fantastic, aren't they? I don't often enter into conversation in public
>>> loos but these seem to generate much approving chat. So far I've only
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>The drying sensation was indeed rather unusual - I had this momentary
>vision of James Dyson inside the machine towelling my hands...

'citing, as Russell Brand would say.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

LFS - 07 Jan 2009 12:25 GMT
>>>> Fantastic, aren't they? I don't often enter into conversation in public
>>>> loos but these seem to generate much approving chat. So far I've only
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> 'citing, as Russell Brand would say.

Who?

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 07 Jan 2009 12:55 GMT
>>>>> Fantastic, aren't they? I don't often enter into conversation in public
>>>>> loos but these seem to generate much approving chat. So far I've only
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Who?

Just in case that is not a rhetorical question based on the fact that Brand
has kept his head down since the "prank" phone call to Andrew Sachs -- him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Brand

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Mike Lyle - 07 Jan 2009 20:32 GMT
>>>>>> Fantastic, aren't they? I don't often enter into conversation in
>>>>>> public loos but these seem to generate much approving chat. So
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Brand has kept his head down since the "prank" phone call to Andrew
> Sachs -- him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Brand

Ghastly little campster. Watching the film of him and big-tongue
pretending to apologize, I wondered if I could smell cocaine: it was
that sort of I-walk-on-water behaviour. See also, I'm told, South
American presidentissimos for a similar fuel.

Back to hand-driers. I've read somewhere that paper towels are in fact
more hygienic, because the electric ones blow the micro-orgs round the
room.

Signature

Mike.

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 07 Jan 2009 20:48 GMT
>Back to hand-driers. I've read somewhere that paper towels are in fact
>more hygienic, because the electric ones blow the micro-orgs round the
>room.

Good point.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Nick - 07 Jan 2009 20:53 GMT
> Back to hand-driers. I've read somewhere that paper towels are in fact
> more hygienic, because the electric ones blow the micro-orgs round the
> room.

Plus there's a fighting chance that you'll have got your hands dry,
rather than stand behind someone for half a minute before wiping your
hands on your trousers before walking out.

At work we have toilets with 3 urinals and 3 cubicals, 7 (count them!)
hand basins, and 2 pathetic little hot air driers.

Just what sort of time/facility ratio did they have in mind?
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Adam Funk - 07 Jan 2009 21:11 GMT
>> Back to hand-driers. I've read somewhere that paper towels are in fact
>> more hygienic, because the electric ones blow the micro-orgs round the
>> room.

Yes, that's been documented.  I've also noticed that the toilets in
hospitals in the UK always have paper towels (sometimes they also have
electric driers, but not always).

> Plus there's a fighting chance that you'll have got your hands dry,
> rather than stand behind someone for half a minute before wiping your
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Just what sort of time/facility ratio did they have in mind?

The stinkers who designed the building are making getting your hands
dry your problem rather than theirs.

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Skitt - 07 Jan 2009 21:33 GMT
>> At work we have toilets with 3 urinals and 3 cubicals, 7 (count
>> them!) hand basins, and 2 pathetic little hot air driers.

ObAUE: three what?

>> Just what sort of time/facility ratio did they have in mind?
>
> The stinkers who designed the building are making getting your hands
> dry your problem rather than theirs.

In my working career, I have not found those facilities unable to handle the
needs of the clientele.  If the cafeteria had a bad day, then maybe.
Possibly it's all in the timing; maybe in the lack of socializing at times
of need.  Women might have different experiences regarding the latter.

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Skitt (AmE)

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 07 Jan 2009 21:36 GMT
>>> At work we have toilets with 3 urinals and 3 cubicals, 7 (count
>>> them!) hand basins, and 2 pathetic little hot air driers.
>
>ObAUE: three what?

3 urinles and 3 cubicles?

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Glenn Knickerbocker - 08 Jan 2009 05:44 GMT
> >> At work we have toilets with 3 urinals and 3 cubicals,
> ObAUE: three what?

You know, those cubical toilets, usually made of wood and built into
small, unheated outbuildings.
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 07 Jan 2009 21:23 GMT
>> Back to hand-driers. I've read somewhere that paper towels are in fact
>> more hygienic, because the electric ones blow the micro-orgs round the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Just what sort of time/facility ratio did they have in mind?

How old is the building? I wonder whether there were roller towels originally
which were replaced one-for-one by hot air dryers. Drying ones hands on a
roller towel is much quicker than doing it with a hot air dryer.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

HVS - 07 Jan 2009 21:30 GMT
On 07 Jan 2009, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote

>>> Back to hand-driers. I've read somewhere that paper towels are
>>> in fact more hygienic, because the electric ones blow the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> dryers. Drying ones hands on a roller towel is much quicker than
> doing it with a hot air dryer.

The British Library has roller towels, bless 'em.

(Then again, archives need some sort of towelling, as hand driers
are pretty useless when faced with the amount of soap and water
needed to get archival dirt off your hands.  I know of one that
tried to eliminate paper towels, but they gave up when their
month's stock of toilet paper kept disappearing within a couple of
days.)

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Amethyst Deceiver - 08 Jan 2009 10:04 GMT
> The British Library has roller towels, bless 'em.
>
> (Then again, archives need some sort of towelling, as hand driers
> are pretty useless when faced with the amount of soap and water
> needed to get archival dirt off your hands.  

I'm not sure how that follows. Hand driers don't have to get soap off
your hands. They just have to get water off, regardless of how dirty
your hands were to begin with. The bonus of towels, of course, is that
poor washing practices mean you can see just how much dirt /wasn't/
washed off properly.

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Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

HVS - 08 Jan 2009 11:18 GMT
On 08 Jan 2009, Amethyst Deceiver wrote

>> The British Library has roller towels, bless 'em.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> of course, is that poor washing practices mean you can see just
> how much dirt /wasn't/ washed off properly.

Well, YMMV and all that, but the problem I find is that when I really
have to scrub my hands and lower arms using a lot of soap --  say
after working with volumes bound in perished red morocco, or handling
really filthy building plans for a few hours -- I wind up with a
*lot* of water to get rid of, and the hot air thing takes forever and
a day to evaporate that amount of fluid.

To me, they work fine for a rinse-your-hands-with-a-bit-of-soap, but
are useless for the half-a-bath-up-to-your-elbows jobs.

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Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

LFS - 07 Jan 2009 21:45 GMT
>>> Back to hand-driers. I've read somewhere that paper towels are in fact
>>> more hygienic, because the electric ones blow the micro-orgs round the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> which were replaced one-for-one by hot air dryers. Drying ones hands on a
> roller towel is much quicker than doing it with a hot air dryer.

Ugh, roller towels get very nasty when they are not replaced
sufficiently often.

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 00:11 GMT
> Ugh, roller towels get very nasty when they are not replaced
> sufficiently often.

Have you encountered the type that provides a long roll of fresh cloth
towelling enclosed in a large metal box (which takes up the used end as
fresh is dispenesed)?  It's the standard sort in North America, although
paper towels or air driers must be more popular by a factor or hundreds if
not thousands.

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 08 Jan 2009 00:20 GMT
>> Ugh, roller towels get very nasty when they are not replaced
>> sufficiently often.
>
>Have you encountered the type that provides a long roll of fresh cloth
>towelling enclosed in a large metal box (which takes up the used end as
>fresh is dispenesed)?  It's the standard sort in North America,

It's the standard arrangement for cloth towelling in the UK too.

> although
>paper towels or air driers must be more popular by a factor or hundreds if
>not thousands.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 00:37 GMT
>>> Ugh, roller towels get very nasty when they are not replaced
>>> sufficiently often.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> It's the standard arrangement for cloth towelling in the UK too.

Yes, but one has encountered, in recent years, the odd loop of toweling hung
on a rod here and there in the UK in a few low-traffic loos.  I've never
seen that elsewhere.

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LFS - 08 Jan 2009 07:54 GMT
>> Ugh, roller towels get very nasty when they are not replaced
>> sufficiently often.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> paper towels or air driers must be more popular by a factor or hundreds if
> not thousands.

Yes, they're standard here too these days but all too often the used
roll is not replaced quickly enough so there is no clean bit to pull out.

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Laura
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Nick - 08 Jan 2009 07:28 GMT
>>> Back to hand-driers. I've read somewhere that paper towels are in fact
>>> more hygienic, because the electric ones blow the micro-orgs round the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> which were replaced one-for-one by hot air dryers. Drying ones hands on a
> roller towel is much quicker than doing it with a hot air dryer.

Only a few years.

And while I'm here, I'll apologise for the cubicle error above.  Perhaps
if we reformed English spelling I wouldn't make howlers like that.
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LFS - 07 Jan 2009 21:40 GMT
>> Back to hand-driers. I've read somewhere that paper towels are in fact
>> more hygienic, because the electric ones blow the micro-orgs round the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Just what sort of time/facility ratio did they have in mind?

Huh. If you're a woman, you spend an unbelievable proportion of your
life queuing in loos.

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Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Richard Bollard - 09 Jan 2009 04:16 GMT
>>>>>>> Fantastic, aren't they? I don't often enter into conversation in
>>>>>>> public loos but these seem to generate much approving chat. So
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>more hygienic, because the electric ones blow the micro-orgs round the
>room.

And we can't have that. They should stop people breathing out for the
same reason.
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

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Mike Lyle - 09 Jan 2009 16:07 GMT
> On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 20:32:38 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
[...]
>> Back to hand-driers. I've read somewhere that paper towels are in
>> fact more hygienic, because the electric ones blow the micro-orgs
>> round the room.
>
> And we can't have that. They should stop people breathing out for the
> same reason.

Only if they wipe their arses with their tongues. Great trick if you can
do it.

Signature

Mike.

Richard Bollard - 13 Jan 2009 00:24 GMT
>> On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 20:32:38 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
>[...]
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Only if they wipe their arses with their tongues. Great trick if you can
>do it.

Different set of orgs but the point is still valid isnit? I'm
sceptical about germs being blown around the room. Even if they were,
I'm sceptical that this presents any greater threat than other
people's exhalations and what have you.  

Personally I much prefer the paper anyway. You stop drying when you're
dry not when the machine runs out of breath.
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Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

CDB - 13 Jan 2009 13:59 GMT
>>> On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 20:32:38 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
>> [...]
>>>> Back to hand-driers. I've read somewhere that paper towels are in
>>>> fact more hygienic, because the electric ones blow the micro-orgs
>>>> round the room.

>>> And we can't have that. They should stop people breathing out for
>>> the same reason.

>> Only if they wipe their arses with their tongues. Great trick if
>> you can do it.

> Different set of orgs but the point is still valid isnit? I'm
> sceptical about germs being blown around the room. Even if they
> were, I'm sceptical that this presents any greater threat than other
> people's exhalations and what have you.

> Personally I much prefer the paper anyway. You stop drying when
> you're dry not when the machine runs out of breath.

Unless the dispenser (sorry, sorry) runs out of paper.  Back to the
subject line: my recollection of the discussions of that idiom is that
they have turned on the use of coin-operated locks on the booths; has
anybody said that it is also a pun on "p."?  Googlesearch says no, for
whatever that's worth.
Mike Lyle - 13 Jan 2009 14:20 GMT
[...]

> Unless the dispenser (sorry, sorry) runs out of paper.  Back to the
> subject line: my recollection of the discussions of that idiom is that
> they have turned on the use of coin-operated locks on the booths; has
> anybody said that it is also a pun on "p."?  Googlesearch says no, for
> whatever that's worth.

In them days the abbr. for "penny" was "d.", so it's probably a fair
2c's worth.

Signature

Mike.

CDB - 13 Jan 2009 16:24 GMT
> [...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> booths; has anybody said that it is also a pun on "p."?
>> Googlesearch says no, for whatever that's worth.

> In them days the abbr. for "penny" was "d.", so it's probably a fair
> 2c's worth.

Ah.  I did do a brief check with Gbooks (had to go out) and thought I
had found a pre-decimalisation example (1908) but, on looking at it
again, I see that "p." probably stood for pesos or the like.  Too bad.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mU8dAAAAIAAJ&q=cost+%222+p.%22&dq=cost+%222+p
.%22&lr=&pgis=1

http://tinyurl.com/8s5les
LFS - 07 Jan 2009 21:51 GMT
>>>>>> Fantastic, aren't they? I don't often enter into conversation in public
>>>>>> loos but these seem to generate much approving chat. So far I've only
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> has kept his head down since the "prank" phone call to Andrew Sachs -- him:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Brand

Ah yes. I am proud to say that, although I have heard the name, I
wouldn't know him from Adam. James Dyson, on the other hand...

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Amethyst Deceiver - 07 Jan 2009 15:51 GMT
> >Fantastic, aren't they? I don't often enter into conversation in public
> >loos but these seem to generate much approving chat. So far I've only
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> practically blew me across the room -- or at least, it pushed the skin
> across the backs of my hands,  a weird and memorable sensation.  

I'm convinced they work partly by blowing the water off. Having looked
down and seen droplets of water draining out of the bottom, that is.

Signature

Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

HVS - 07 Jan 2009 16:06 GMT
On 07 Jan 2009, Amethyst Deceiver wrote

>>> Fantastic, aren't they? I don't often enter into conversation
>>> in public loos but these seem to generate much approving chat.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> looked down and seen droplets of water draining out of the
> bottom, that is.

It's not "partly" -- that's precisely what it does.  It's also why
it's more efficient, as it doesn't need to heat the air to evaporate
the water from your hands.

I can't find it now, but there's a fairly long Youtube clip where
Dyson explains the thing.

Signature

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

HVS - 07 Jan 2009 16:07 GMT
On 07 Jan 2009, HVS wrote

> On 07 Jan 2009, Amethyst Deceiver wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> I can't find it now, but there's a fairly long Youtube clip
> where Dyson explains the thing.

Found it --
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UiYptODDzE0

Signature

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Amethyst Deceiver - 07 Jan 2009 15:48 GMT
> > On 06 Jan 2009, Adam Funk wrote
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> loos but these seem to generate much approving chat. So far I've only
> encountered them at stations but I do hope they become more widely adopted.

Another vote for "Marvellous". And they have them in Tampopo (yet
another Manchester noodle bar).

Signature

Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

tyngewick.gawcott@ntlworld.com - 08 Jan 2009 16:08 GMT
> In article <6si4c5F677j...@mid.individual.net>,
> la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk says...
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Another vote for "Marvellous". And they have them in Tampopo (yet
> another Manchester noodle bar).

Am I the only one to think that the choice of name, in the context of
this discussion, is somewhat unfortunate.

--
TG
HVS - 08 Jan 2009 16:52 GMT
On 08 Jan 2009,  wrote

> On 7 Jan, 15:48, Amethyst Deceiver <s...@lindsayendell.co.uk>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Am I the only one to think that the choice of name, in the
> context of this discussion, is somewhat unfortunate.

No, but some of us just sniggered in private...

Signature

Cheers and fnarr, fnarr,
Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Ian Jackson - 06 Jan 2009 22:32 GMT
>On 06 Jan 2009, Adam Funk wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>http://www.dysonairblade.co.uk/

Undoubtedly the noisiest hand driers (which were installed fairly
recently) are in the toilets of Warwick Services, on the M40. When three
or four of them are operating in unison, the noise level reminds me of
the Concorde taking off, and must surely be in breach of several Elfin
Safety regulations. My wife, who has tinnitus plus very sensitive high
frequency hearing, absolutely dreads having to take a pit-stop there.
Signature

Ian

Richard Bollard - 09 Jan 2009 04:15 GMT
>On 06 Jan 2009, Adam Funk wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>http://www.dysonairblade.co.uk/

Looks good but do they really have to purify the air before blowing
it? Mysophobia rampant.
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

TsuiDF - 31 Dec 2008 18:12 GMT
> >>>> I first encountered a "pay" toilet when I was around six years old,
> >>>> so that would have been in the late 1940s. It seems to me that the
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> her a few coins, if you like, as you leave. Personally, I'd find it
> difficult not to.

Here the sole purpose of the attendant is to collect the fee for using
the facilities.  Must be a dismal job, albeit with the small pleasure
of occasionally assaulting someone you believe hasn't paid.  (I speak
from experience as a victim of such an assault -- completely
unwarranted, natch.)

Stephanie in Brussels
Maria C. - 27 Dec 2008 20:39 GMT
>> I first encountered a "pay" toilet when I was around six years old,
>> so that would have been in the late 1940s. It seems to me that the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> could nickels (worth five cents), and thus would have meant emptying
>> the box less often.

I should have added (for those outside the USA, who might not know it),
that a dime is smaller in size than a nickel.

> Thee were still pay toilets in the rest rooms of the big department
> store (Goldblatts) in the town I grew up in (Aurora, Illinois) in the
> 60s. And yes, it was a dime. By the time I graduated from high school
> in 1976, Goldblatt's was long gone, and as far as I know, so were all
> the pay toilets in town.

Just before Christmas, I was talking to my aunt, who is eight years
older than I, about the subject (of pay toilets in Hudson's in the late
1940s). She confirmed that the price was a dime.

Now that I think about it more, that seems like a pretty high price. A
dime would have bought a large candy bar in those days -- the kind that
costs 65 or 70 cents (or more) now. A phone call cost a nickel then (in
a phone booth). And a cup of coffee at the local GS was was a dime --  
certainly no more than 15 cents.

In other words, a dime was not a particularly cheap price. It's no
wonder that the ladies in the public restroom found ways to avoid
paying. (Did the men pay anything for the use of a urinal? Just
wondering.)

Signature

Maria C.

Chuck Riggs - 28 Dec 2008 09:57 GMT
>>> I first encountered a "pay" toilet when I was around six years old,
>>> so that would have been in the late 1940s. It seems to me that the
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>paying. (Did the men pay anything for the use of a urinal? Just
>wondering.)

In my drinking days I would have objected to paying a dime every time
I used the toilet. Where there was an attendant, I reasoned that
seasoned drinkers were deserving of a wholesale rate, so I'd tip every
now and then, but generously.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Steve Hayes - 17 Dec 2008 06:07 GMT
>The old Sterlingetc pay-as-you-goes had marvellous over-engineered brass
>contraptions on the doors. The visitor had to put in one of those lovely
>old huge bronze pennies, hence the still-extant expression "spend a
>penny". When locked, the slide on the outside read not "Occupied" but
>"Engaged".

Last time I was in the UK one had to spend a pound to get into a plastic
chemical contraption on the station platform.

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

tony cooper - 16 Dec 2008 21:39 GMT
>>>> There was a time in Britain when local councils of even small
>>>> villages were proud of the fact that they had decent public
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>just about all retail outlets, including grocery stores and gas
>stations. There are signs pointing the way to them.

Many stores now have three restrooms:  men, women, and family.  The
"family" restroom is a one-holer and allows either the father or the
mother to take a child of either sex into the room and have privacy.
Solves the problem of the father taking his daughter into the men's
room or the mother taking the son into the women's room.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Wood Avens - 16 Dec 2008 21:48 GMT
>Many stores now have three restrooms:  men, women, and family.  The
>"family" restroom is a one-holer and allows either the father or the
>mother to take a child of either sex into the room and have privacy.
>Solves the problem of the father taking his daughter into the men's
>room or the mother taking the son into the women's room.

A two-holer might be better, if it meant that the small child was too
busy to open the door while its parent is still, hmm, engaged.

Signature

Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

Maria C. - 17 Dec 2008 00:42 GMT
>> Many stores now have three restrooms:  men, women, and family.  The
>> "family" restroom is a one-holer and allows either the father or the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> A two-holer might be better, if it meant that the small child was too
> busy to open the door while its parent is still, hmm, engaged.

A "two-holer," to me, means an outhouse (with two seats/holes). I
remember wondering, when I was a kid, why there were two holes. Sharing
a toilet was something I just wouldn't have done. (I was an only child,
if that helps explain it.)

We encountered many outhouses when traveling in the 1940s & 1950s. There
was also one on my uncle's farm at one time.

Signature

Maria C.

Skitt - 17 Dec 2008 01:02 GMT
>>> Many stores now have three restrooms:  men, women, and family.  The
>>> "family" restroom is a one-holer and allows either the father or the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> We encountered many outhouses when traveling in the 1940s & 1950s.
> There was also one on my uncle's farm at one time.

The most interesting one in my life was an outhouse in the DP Camp in
Germany.  It was a well-ventilated and unheated brick building, divided in
two halves, with separate entrances for men and women.  The M/F
accomodations were back to back, with about six holes in each half, but
there were no dividers between thr side-by-side holes.  The seating surface
was at a slight slant, slanting down from back to front.  The interesting
part was that if one bent down to look horizontally from a hole to the hole
on the other side, one could see a butt when one was there.  The scenery had
to be slightly different when looking from the other side.

Signature

Skitt (AmE)

tony cooper - 17 Dec 2008 02:01 GMT
>>> Many stores now have three restrooms:  men, women, and family.  The
>>> "family" restroom is a one-holer and allows either the father or the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>a toilet was something I just wouldn't have done. (I was an only child,
>if that helps explain it.)

"One-holer" and "two-holer" certainly do come from describing
outhouses.  There was no toilet seat on the ones I've seen; just
wooden surface.  The advantage of a two-holer was that a dry surface
might be available if a male had recently used it.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Pat Durkin - 17 Dec 2008 05:15 GMT
>>>> Many stores now have three restrooms:  men, women, and family.  The
>>>> "family" restroom is a one-holer and allows either the father or
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> wooden surface.  The advantage of a two-holer was that a dry surface
> might be available if a male had recently used it.

Seems to me we've visited this topic before, because I recall mentioning
the cadillac of outhouses: the three-holer.  Two large holes and a
smaller one, for kids.  In my mother's family the outhouse was a very
social place.
Nick Spalding - 17 Dec 2008 11:25 GMT
Pat Durkin wrote, in <gia1t8$ggu$1@news.albasani.net>
on Tue, 16 Dec 2008 23:15:25 -0600:

> >>>> Many stores now have three restrooms:  men, women, and family.  The
> >>>> "family" restroom is a one-holer and allows either the father or
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> smaller one, for kids.  In my mother's family the outhouse was a very
> social place.

<http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/specialist.html>
"Luke Harkins was my first customer. He heerd about me specializin' and
decided to take a chance. I built fer him the average eight family,
three holer. "
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Robin Bignall - 17 Dec 2008 22:42 GMT
>>>>> Many stores now have three restrooms:  men, women, and family.  The
>>>>> "family" restroom is a one-holer and allows either the father or
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>smaller one, for kids.  In my mother's family the outhouse was a very
>social place.

I was an only child, and sharing a toilet was unthinkable.  In fact, I
was in my late twenties when I went to a party and a woman I had known
since we were at school kept the lav door open while she peed because
she didn't want to interrupt our conversation.  I felt quite
uncomfortable, even though I'd had a romp or two with her some years
previously.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

R H Draney - 18 Dec 2008 05:26 GMT
Robin Bignall filted:

>I was an only child, and sharing a toilet was unthinkable.  In fact, I
>was in my late twenties when I went to a party and a woman I had known
>since we were at school kept the lav door open while she peed because
>she didn't want to interrupt our conversation.  I felt quite
>uncomfortable, even though I'd had a romp or two with her some years
>previously.

How far, exactly, does this taboo extend?...would you be unable to "do your
duty" if the cat were sitting there watching you?...r

Signature

"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Robin Bignall - 18 Dec 2008 21:54 GMT
>Robin Bignall filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>How far, exactly, does this taboo extend?...would you be unable to "do your
>duty" if the cat were sitting there watching you?...r

No, it's only humans.  I don't want to watch them or have them watch
me.  I don't know whether it's a leftover from being painfully shy as
a youngster.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Maria C. - 17 Dec 2008 00:35 GMT
> Many stores now have three restrooms:  men, women, and family.  The
> "family" restroom is a one-holer and allows either the father or the
> mother to take a child of either sex into the room and have privacy.
> Solves the problem of the father taking his daughter into the men's
> room or the mother taking the son into the women's room.

A story you might expect:
I went into a "family" restroom at an airport once because the women's
room was closed for cleaning, and I was desperate. The door didn't
lock -- or perhaps I didn't lock it properly. Either way, no one was
locked out, and I was speechless when a man with a couple of children
came in. As I now remember it, I was done with my business, and was just
washing my hands. (I hope I'm remembering it right.) I hurried out, with
a feeling that "embarrassment" doesn't cover. "Chagrin" might.

I can't remember if the toilet was in a stall or just sitting there. I
certainly won't go back to find out.

Signature

Maria C.

Mark Brader - 17 Dec 2008 06:59 GMT
Maria Conlon:
> Nowadays, there are public restrooms (or "rest rooms," two words) in
> just about all retail outlets, including grocery stores and gas
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> not exist in most US stores, especially smaller ones; large department
> stores were the exception...

Interesting.  I expect to find public washrooms in stores only if the
stores are quite large (not necessarily department stores; Indigo, which
is similar to Barnes & Noble in the US, and Home Depot come to mind)
or are connected to a gas station.  I expect pubs/bars and sit-down
restaurants to have them, as well as some fast-food restaurants, but
in these places they are sometimes ask only customers to use them.

I wonder if there is variation by region or state or province or country
or if either Maria or I is* just overgeneralizing.

*ObAUE: "is"? "am"? What?
Signature

Mark Brader      |     "Forgive me if I misunderstood myself, but
Toronto          |      I don't think I was arguing in favour of that..."
msb@vex.net      |                                     -- Geoff Butler

My text in this article is in the public domain.

tony cooper - 17 Dec 2008 13:33 GMT
>Maria Conlon:
>> Nowadays, there are public restrooms (or "rest rooms," two words) in
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>restaurants to have them, as well as some fast-food restaurants, but
>in these places they are sometimes ask only customers to use them.

All convenience stores in this area have restrooms available to the
public.  Most are freely available, but some are kept locked and a key
must be requested at the counter.  Key or no key depends on the
neighborhood.  The locked facilities are in the "bad" neighborhoods.  

Some stores have locked restrooms because they want to see what the
user is carrying before they admit them.  This is done to prevent the
user from going into the restroom to conceal merchandise in their
clothing.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Pat Durkin - 17 Dec 2008 15:54 GMT
> Maria Conlon:
>> Nowadays, there are public restrooms (or "rest rooms," two words) in
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> *ObAUE: "is"? "am"? What?

I just _know_ you wrote that entire paragraph with the goal of ending up
with that conundrum.

In this case, I would say that proximity is the determiner. . ."am".
Iain - 17 Dec 2008 22:47 GMT
> Effin & Jeffin - up there with Flotsam & Jetsam? Laurel & Hardy? Wilson,
> Keppel & Betty?

My favourite ever instance of the phrase:
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=PwHrxELHX18

~Iain
 
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