Discussion Groups / English Usage / December 2008

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Yes, I also think that's possible, although it might not be, and it
would be hard to prove if it were. Apparently Mays had a fabulous year
in 1954 ("The Catch") and ABE Books indicates that "Born to Play Ball"
had 13 printings in 1955.

I searched Time magazine's archives for various forms of the
ballpark/ball park expression. I didn't prove much one way or another,
but I thought this had some interest:

Feb. 3, 1986
    Senator Pat Moynihan asked Comptroller General Bowsher,
    at a hearing last week, whether the various
    exemptions did not mean that the vulnerable areas of
    domestic spending will actually have to be slashed by
     a devastating 25% next year and vulnerable defense
    outlays by perhaps 18%. "That's in the ball park,"
    said Bowsher, thus conjuring up a ball park stripped
    of seats, gates and outfield fences.

The idea here being that this image at least confirms the general US
notion that a ballpark figure relates to baseball, which was not a
certainty to our outlying members.

Not that we can establish the truth of a phrase origin by what people in
a later decade *think* it is. We've seen that people quite quickly form
their own assumptions about origins, and also play around freely with
words. So this sort of evidence doesn't count for much in the true
scheme of things.

Everything is consistent with baseball, though.

Alan Jones filted:

ObGeorgeCarlin: baseball is pastoral; football is technological...baseball is
played on a "diamond", in a "park"...football is played on a "gridiron", in a
"stadium"....r

Whether you call it stadium or sports ground or, in Australia, oval, the
idea that Maria suggests seems to be the right one and is, to my ears,
fairly clear. I was never sure whether "ballpark" referred to baseball
or American football or some other game, but the idea was clear enough
to me.

Certainly. I understand that, and I did use "to an American" in my
answer to Chuck (who grew up in the US, and is still an American, as far
as I know).

I was not really sure how to explain a "ballpark" to people outside the
US, though, so my reply was narrow. I feel that most, if not all,
Americans* would not need a knowledge of baseball to know what a
ballpark is.

*The exceptions would be those Americans who are relatively new at being
American. (That is, fairly recent immigrants.)

"Playing field" is a good description of some small ballparks, but in
professional or semi-professional sports, a playing field is the field
of play itself -- it doesn't include the other areas, such as the
stands, concessions, etc. (If that's wrong, someone will come along and
correct me.)

"Park" alone (not preceded by "ball"), in the US, could be pretty much
what you say. Some parks are not so lavish, though. (A "great house"?)

We used to refer to "Tiger Stadium"* (formerly Briggs Stadium, formerly
Navin Field) as "the old ballpark" but more as a term of endearment.

*===Tiger Stadium is about half dismantled now. Many memories and
memory-makers are gone. The sports bar across the street, Lindell AC, is
still standing, but sold, renamed, and closed. No business now. One of
the Lindell owners died a while back. Gone are the days. (And in those
bygone days, the Detroit Lions Football Team played there, too.)===

When the new baseball stadium was built (on/at a different, but nearby,
site), crass commercialism entered and the place was named "Comerica
Park," after a bank (formerly known by the good solid name of "Detroit
Bank & Trust), thanks to a financial arrangement. <barf> Not long after
that, "Comerica" moved its main office to Texas or somewhere like that.
No endearments any more. That'll come later, I suppose.

Comerica Park also has some carnival rides on-site. Well, a Ferris
Wheel, at least. A couple of years ago, there was a concert by the
Rolling Stones at Comerica. I was fortunate enough to be there --  
working in a charity booth (what you pay for a hot dog, etc., goes to
charity). I couldn't see them all the time, but I could hear. What a
wonderful evening.

Anyway, a ballpark, if it's not a major one, will usually have spectator
seating (if only "bleachers"). No stadium. If it's a small ballpark,
brought-from-home folding chairs or "lawn chairs"** will be the only
seats (other than, perhaps, a players' bench).

By the by, what is "a pitch devoted to some sport"? Would that be the
layout of the playing area? If so, that is often present in a
"ballpark."

** Bleachers: an outdoor grandstand without a roof; patrons are exposed
to the sun as linens are when they are bleached

You don't need to be a Yankee or Japanese to understand this term,
even though it helps. When estimating the size of a crowd or of
anything else, a "ballpark figure" derives from the idea that balls
hit outside the stadium are no longer in play. They do not need to be
considered. Similarly, in a "ballpark estimate" the figures are
constrained within certain limits. Both parties generally have an
understanding of what these limits are, even if only vaguely.

Fascinating to see the different assumptions people have made about
these "ballpark" expressions. However, there is no evidence to be had
that anyone used to talk about literal "ballpark figure" or "ballpark
figures" to mean the attendance. (I'm ignoring recent decades after the
phrases were well established, and looking for early use, say pre-1970.)
Not a single literal use.  Can anyone else? I can hardly find any use of
"ballpark" or "ball park' and "attendance"  in the same breath.Yes,
attendance at baseball games is counted and discussed, such as:

    Society in Transition? - Page 446 by Harry Elmer
    Barnes -- 1952 - 878 pages
   The largest attendance at a single baseball game was on
    October 10, 1948, when  86288 fans saw the World
    Series game between Cleveland and Boston at ...

But not using "ballpark," "ballpark figure," or "ballpark figures." it
doesn't even turn up as a behind-the-scenes word, as if a radio
announcer said, "Then we gave the ballpark figures before a commercial
break..." (Invented example.)

"Ballpark figure" and "ballpark figures" to mean "rough estimate" seem
to have sprung into existence around the 1960s, without any history --
right around the same time as the related phrases, "in the ballpark,"
"in the same ballpark," and "in the right ballpark." This is rather
puzzling.

[I wrote about this already in a post I retitled

    ballpark [WAS: to go on]

but sometimes I get the impression this retitling wrenches the post out
of order in some people's readers, and actually hinders people from
finding it instead of helping. To summarize, the only really frequent
and widespread historical baseball use I found was to hit (knock) a ball
"out of the ballpark.")

Some examples of "ballpark figure/s" from Google Books, using the "Item
Notes" for the date:

-----

AACE Bulletin
by American Association of Cost Engineers
Item notes: v.1-6 1958-1964
(Those are ballpark figures only.) changing the level of production or
purchasing.

Hearings: Dept. of Defense
By United States Congress. House. Committee on Appropriations
Item notes: v.2 1961
One of the members of the staff gave me a ballpark figure, saying that
each item in addition would be some $80 million. Would you disagree with
that ?

Hearings: Farm Labor Program
By United States Congress.
Item notes: 1971
Just a ballpark figure. Mr. GARFIELD. Within the 30-day period. Senator
BAYH. That would be before, then, the last of June?

-----

If the time for the related expressions was spread out over decades, I
would assume that "ballpark figure" was a compact reworking of "making
an estimate 'in the right ballpark'" which in turn had derived from
something else -- but so far the evidence doesn't allow enough time for
an orderly progression.

I don't get it.

(I am glad to see that Google Books is continuing to add dates of
serials to "Item Notes" -- it's a pity we can't sort or search by them,
but at least they give us a way to make use of previously useless data.)

Are you saying that AUE posters should post only from a
position/viewpoint that everyone shares? If so, how is that to be
accomplished? (And what would we learn from it?)

Or, are you saying that you don't share my view that "[k]nowledge that
there is a game called baseball in the US may not be necessary to an
American to know what a "ballpark" is"?

Note: I'm an American; I can hardly speak as someone from somewhere
else. (Actually, I can't even speak for "America" -- that is, the United
States. I can only speak for myself.)

I did see Alan's post, and replied to it. (Did you read that reply?)

(If I sound defensive, sorry, but your comment made my hackles rise just
a bit.)