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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009To give your lads the devil down below
Hello: I don't get the construction: "to give your lads the devil down below" "Down below" in the novel means in the valley, in the normal world, away from the mountain where the sanatory is. However, I'm confused by the "your" instead of "you." ------- [The doctor doesn't want to release them from the sanatory] How do you expect to give your lads the devil down below, in the lit- up state you are in? I told you the other day to call it half a year; The Magic Mountain by Thomas Mann, Tr. Helen Tracy Lowe-Porter, p. 183 ------ Thanks. Marius Hancu >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >by Thomas Mann, Tr. Helen Tracy Lowe-Porter, p. 183 >------ I've fogotten the context, but it's roughly "you're in no fit state to crack the whip over the people you're responsible for". "Give [them] the devil" means "give them hell" or (depending on context) something like "give them forthright and robust commands". I don't understand your confusion over "your".  SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > >[The doctor doesn't want to release them from the sanatory] > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > [them] the devil" means "give them hell" or (depending on context) > something like "give them forthright and robust commands". Now I know where that "your" comes from. The doctor tells him that he's too weak to go back to the _shipyard_ "down below" and give "his" workers the hell. Thanks. Marius Hancu > > >[The doctor doesn't want to release them from the sanatory] > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > he's too weak to go back to the _shipyard_ "down below" and give "his" > workers the hell. Well, maybe. But "the devil down below" is quite a fixed phrase (more polite than "the devil in hell") and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it corresponds closely to a German phrase. Some typical hits in Google Books: - These kids envision God up in the heavens on a golden throne surrounded by angels, and the devil down below in the flames of perdition. - VERSE I've seen many different pictures Of the Devil down below. - Thereby Joyce reinforced the infernal aspect of the boys' act by replacing it with the proverbial residence of the devil down below - she sang,"l want to take a journey to the devil down below. ... SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > Well, maybe. But "the devil down below" is quite a fixed phrase (more > polite than "the devil in hell") and I wouldn't be at all surprised if [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > - she sang,"l want to take a journey to the devil down below. ... Thanks, Donna. Marius Hancu > Marius Hancu wrote >From: Marius Hancu <Marius.Hancu@gmail.com> >Subject: To give your lads the devil down below [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >"Down below" in the novel means in the valley, in the normal world, >away from the mountain where the sanatory is. Where the 'what' is? DC -- >> Marius Hancu wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Where the 'what' is? Presumably the "sanatorium". Perhaps "sanatory" is used as an abbreviation by characters in the story. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Dec 26, 12:59 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >>"Down below" in the novel means in the valley, in the normal world, > >>away from the mountain where the sanatory is. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Presumably the "sanatorium". Perhaps "sanatory" is used as an abbreviation by > characters in the story. No, it's my sorry "invention":-[ Marius Hancu >On Dec 26, 12:59 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >No, it's my sorry "invention":-[ It is a word though: sanatory, a. 1. Conducive to healing; curative. 2. Of or pertaining to healing. also 3. (misused for "sanitary") SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> On Dec 26, 12:59 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" >> <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > also > 3. (misused for "sanitary") And I'd call it a legitimate new noun formation, too. Welcome to the footnotes in OED, Marius: you've earned the distinction by all those years of diligence, so I hope you won't be neglected. SignatureMike. > Marius Hancu wrote >> >Where the 'what' is? >> >> Presumably the "sanatorium". Perhaps "sanatory" is used as an abbreviation >>by characters in the story. > >No, it's my sorry "invention":-[ Makes a great euphamism, though... DC -- >> Marius Hancu wrote > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Makes a great euphamism, though... It reminded me of the use of "veterinary" as a noun: short for "veterinary surgeon" = "veterinarian". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Marius Hancu wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >It reminded me of the use of "veterinary" as a noun: short for "veterinary >surgeon" = "veterinarian". Or 'veturinary', an incontinent ex-serviceman. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England [...] >> It [Marius's apparent coinage of noun "sanatory"] reminded me of the >> use of "veterinary" as a noun: short for >> "veterinary surgeon" = "veterinarian". > > Or 'veturinary', an incontinent ex-serviceman. WIWAL, and later, didn't you get to be a "veteran" only many years or decades after the war in question was over? Like a "veteran car", you had to be long in the tooth. In AusE, younger survivors were simply "returned soldiers"; I'm not quite sure of the equivalent BrE term, but I think it was just "ex-serviceman" with a war specified if necessary. I have a sense that the US usage--which corresponds a little better to Latin and earlier English, which applied to experienced troops still serving--is beginning to take over in OurE. SignatureMike. > WIWAL, and later, didn't you get to be a "veteran" only many years or > decades after the war in question was over? Like a "veteran car", you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Latin and earlier English, which applied to experienced troops still > serving--is beginning to take over in OurE. Well, there's the meaning of an experienced soldier, still serving, which is yet another possibility. Google Books has, for example, in the records of Parliament, 1750: Lord Barrington rose and said : ...Another inconvenience would be, Sir, if this Bill had any effect, that it would strip our army of all its veteran soldiers : by a veteran I mean a soldier that has been in action, and that army, or that corps, is always the best, which has the greatest number of such soldiers in it; for a soldier who has once, been in action, will always go on with less concern, and be more master of himself and every part of his duty, than a man who has never been in any such service. A regiment of fresh men may have as much courage, may be as much masters of their exercise, and may at a review go as exactly and as nimbly through every part of it, as a regiment of veteran soldiers ; but it has always been observed, that in the day of battle, the former is more apt to fall into confusion, and not so easily or quickly rallied as the latter; for which reason all our veterans ought to be kept in the army as long as they are fit for service. ... [How easily these passages read when there are no long S's.] SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> WIWAL, and later, didn't you get to be a "veteran" only many years or >> decades after the war in question was over? Like a "veteran car", you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > which is yet another possibility. Google Books has, for example, in > the records of Parliament, 1750: [...] In myE, "troops", as in "experienced troops still serving" above, means "soldiers". SignatureMike. > >> WIWAL, and later, didn't you get to be a "veteran" only many years or > >> decades after the war in question was over? Like a "veteran car", you [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > In myE, "troops", as in "experienced troops still serving" above, means > "soldiers". Why, there it is. My eyes must have slid right past your closing line on earlier reading. So you think that this sense is one of those return-loanwords -- went out of use in Britain, was still used in the US, and so is lately returning to Britain? I am always impressed by how open Brits are to adopting Americanisms, and how reluctant Americans are to adopting Briticisms. Though I have noticed about five uses of "over the top" (to mean "unacceptably exaggerated") by Americans on television in the last few months, so I think another Briticism may have made its way through the adoption procedure. I wonder what the source is -- a few British judges on US reality contests? SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>>> WIWAL, and later, didn't you get to be a "veteran" only many years >>>> or decades after the war in question was over? Like a "veteran [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I am always impressed by how open Brits are to adopting Americanisms, > and how reluctant Americans are to adopting Briticisms. Isn't that a function of the all-pervasive US money culture? (Esp. TV, but also tourism.) After all, how many US TV channels feature British news, anthropology studies, etc? PBS is barely tolerated for its US programming. > Though I have > noticed about five uses of "over the top" (to mean "unacceptably > exaggerated") by Americans on television in the last few months, so I > think another Briticism may have made its way through the adoption > procedure. I wonder what the source is -- a few British judges on US > reality contests? What is the origin of "over the top" as you classify it? Encarta has it as first seen in 1984, while Wiktionary has it as a WWI term from trench warfare. In that sense, I suppose it might be British, since, for sure, the Brits spent a lot more time in the trenches than did the US infantry. But, then, is the implication from that origin that it was foolish bravery to make a charge and go "over the top" across no man's land? Wasn't that the standard initiative in offensive measures? I mean. . .where was the excess? http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/o.htm lists it as UK slang, with O.T.T. as an abbreviation, but no origin. That all seems so possible as to be prosaic in the extreme. I have heard the expression "over-topping" (usually, taller than, but also over-filling), and "over the top" to refer to putting a big head of foam on a beer, and that seems more related to the "excess" meaning*. Not that there need be any logic to why a term becomes popular. I wonder if the UK slang term became _very_ popular after Hilary and Norgay's feat. *But, then, I am a drinker, not a fighter. >>>>> WIWAL, and later, didn't you get to be a "veteran" only many years >>>>> or decades after the war in question was over? Like a "veteran [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/o.htm lists it as UK slang, with O.T.T. >as an abbreviation, but no origin. I'm surprised at that form of the abbreviation. I recall it only as the dotless OTT (spoken as Oh Tee Tee). It is my guess that "over the top" originated independently of the WWI trench warfare phrase "going over the top". OED: over the top, adv. and adj. [< OVER prep. + THE adj. + TOP n.1] A. adv. 1. In the First World War (1914-18): over the parapet of a trench and into battle; usu. in to go over the top. Now chiefly hist. or in extended use. 1916 War Illustr. 9 Sept. 80/1 Some fellows asked our captain when we were going over the top. .... 1992 Independent 29 Oct. 34/2 As one hooly-footsoldier says of the England {soccer team} manager: Taylor? I wouldn't follow him over the top, if you know what I mean. 2. colloq. (chiefly Brit.). Usu. with hyphens. To an excessive or exaggerated degree; beyond reasonable or acceptable limits; too far. [1] 1935 L. STEFFENS Let. 10 Sept. (1938) II. 1007, I had come to regard the New Capitalism as an experiment till, in 1929, the whole thing went over the top and slid down to an utter collapse. 1968 C. WATSON Charity ends at Home x. 129 For instance, you said at our first interview that your wife got so worked up about some things that she was in danger of going over the top, as you put it. .... 2002 Ministry Jan. 97/3 A nice trance groove that rolls along in fine form, before a euphoric breakdown which holds together well and doesn't go over the top. B. adj. That is highly exaggerated; extravagant, outrageous; that exceeds reasonable or acceptable limits. Abbreviated OTT. [2] 1981 N.Y. Times 26 Nov. D19/4 An over-the-top dive by Greg Bell failed to produce a first down with about 10 minutes remaining. 1986 Sunday Express Mag. 9 Nov. 64/4 Glorious bad taste is the hall-mark of 50s costume jewellery and the most typically over-the-top pieces command the highest prices. 2000 J. S. JONES Welsh Boys Too 63 He took another lover, Jane said. God... That's a bit over the top, isn't it? Adrian quizzed. [1] L. STEFFENS was an American: "I have been over into the future, and it works" or as his wife put it "I've seen the future, and it works". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Steffens Unless Steffens picked up the phrase from a British source it is possible that "over the top" originated in the US. Or it might have originated independently in Britain at a later date. I'm not completely convinced that Steffens's phrase has just the same meaning as the BrE "over-the-top". His implied metaphor is of something going up a hill, reaching the top, and then crashing down the other side. If something is OTT it means that it is excessive. There is no automatic implication of disaster. [2] Hmm. It would be very easy to interpret that "over-the-top dive" literally, assuming there was something or someone to go over the top of. >That all seems so possible as to be prosaic in the extreme. I have >heard the expression "over-topping" (usually, taller than, but also [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >*But, then, I am a drinker, not a fighter. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > > I am always impressed by how open Brits are to adopting Americanisms, > > and how reluctant Americans are to adopting Briticisms. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > news, anthropology studies, etc? PBS is barely tolerated for its US > programming. I think it's a habit that predates electricity and has a lot to do with colonies and their mother countries, minority regions fighting for identity, that sort of thing. > > Though I have > > noticed about five uses of "over the top" (to mean "unacceptably [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What is the origin of "over the top" as you classify it? Encarta has it > as first seen in 1984, That's what Cassell's says also: over-the-top/o.t.t phrase [1980s+] 1. beyond the usual bounds of taste, behaviour, credibility, etc. 2. very drunk [No etymology offered] > while Wiktionary has it as a WWI term from trench > warfare. In that sense, I suppose it might be British, since, for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > land? Wasn't that the standard initiative in offensive measures? I > mean. . .where was the excess? I don't see any military tinge to "over the top" as it is used today, no fighting, bravery, risk, etc. I suspect it is completely unconnected to the battlefield "over the top." For one thing, the modern use isn't to "go" but to "be". And so many things have tops, it could have come from anywhere. As you say later, a beer glass comes to mind, and Cassell's says there was a meaning of "drunk." I just looked in the archives of the Boston Globe for US examples. Here are a couple with the meaning I have in mind, both dated December 2008: so we don't really see how their resilience is tested until their problems are so over the top that they're uncontrollably leaking into all aspects of life. While a few lights can be nice, the over-the-top gaudy spectacles strike me as cheesy and wasteful. I see another use which might be somehow related -- being "put over the top" when raising money for a goal, or getting votes. Those are desirable, though. > http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/o.htm lists it as UK slang, with O.T.T. > as an abbreviation, but no origin. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that there need be any logic to why a term becomes popular. I wonder if > the UK slang term became _very_ popular after Hilary and Norgay's feat. The 1950s weren't the 1980s. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >Pat Durkin <durk183@sbc.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >over-the-top/o.t.t phrase [1980s+] 1. beyond the usual bounds of taste, >behaviour, credibility, etc. For the record, there's a common instance of the literal meaning of the phrase which also carries the 'excessive' subtext, and that is in association football (soccer). Recalling that it's a game where most control and possession of the ball is by use of the feet, a tackle to dispossess an opponent is performed by attempting to kick the ball away from the feet of the opponent. Energetic tackles in which the tackler's foot skates over the ball and into the opponent's leg are "over the top" in both senses. In the worst cases, over-the-top tackles can result in badly broken legs, and have been known to end players' footballing careers. SignaturePaul >> Pat Durkin <durk183@sbc.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > tackles can result in badly broken legs, and have been known to end > players' footballing careers. In American football, at least back in the radio days, the announcers would say that the team who had just gained possession and was trying to make its first "down" was coming "up over the ball". I suppose because before the snap to the quarterback, all the players were hunched over the ball. (We didn't have football in my highschool. Too small a town.) <snip> >(We didn't have football in my highschool. Too small a >town.) My high school in Vienna, Virginia sponsored both varsity and junior varsity teams in several sports, football being the most popular with the student body. Our nearest competitor was in McLean, where John Valera went to school. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > My high school in Vienna, Virginia sponsored both varsity and junior > varsity teams in several sports, football being the most popular with > the student body. Our nearest competitor was in McLean, where John > Valera went to school. You've spent too much time in Ireland, confusing Varela with Valera. Sixty years ago that used to happen to me a lot, but de Valera is no longer well known in the USA. And I did not go to school in McLean, Virginia. I went kindergarten through the first two years of high school in New Orleans, and the last two years of high school at a boarding school near Sewanee, Tennessee. And when I entered MIT a commuter student thought from my accent that I was from somewhere in the Boston area. Go figure. My boarding school had only 108 beds, so there were no more than 108 boys including the 8th grade, but we still were able to field a football team. I played center and nose guard. When the B team had a game there weren't 11 A team players left for a workout. In my senior year we won only one game, which was one better than the Detroit Lions did this year, and since it was the last game of the season we ended on a winning streak. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >> My high school in Vienna, Virginia sponsored both varsity and junior >> varsity teams in several sports, football being the most popular with >> the student body. Our nearest competitor was in McLean, where John >> Valera went to school. > >You've spent too much time in Ireland, confusing Varela with Valera. Sorry about that, John. > Sixty years ago that used to happen to me a lot, but de Valera is >no longer well known in the USA. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Detroit Lions did this year, and since it was the last game of the >season we ended on a winning streak. I don't know why, then, I thought you lived in McLean for awhile. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > I don't know why, then, I thought you lived in McLean for awhile. I've lived in McLean since the summer of '75, but no schooling here. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >> I don't know why, then, I thought you lived in McLean for awhile. > >I've lived in McLean since the summer of '75, but no schooling here. Are you familiar with the old football rivalry between McLean's high school and James Madison High School, in Vienna? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >> I don't know why, then, I thought you lived in McLean for awhile. > > > >I've lived in McLean since the summer of '75, but no schooling here. > > Are you familiar with the old football rivalry between McLean's high > school and James Madison High School, in Vienna? Since your day there is a second high school in McLean, called Langley because of its proximity to the crossroads where the CIA is located. Two of our sons went to Langley, then we were redistricted and the third son went to McLean. I think there was something of a rivalry between the two high schools, Langley holding itself out to be academically superior to McLean, but we never heard much about high school rivalries in our house. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >> >> I don't know why, then, I thought you lived in McLean for awhile. >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >be academically superior to McLean, but we never heard much about >high school rivalries in our house. Those Easterners are quite the la-di-da. The high school rivalries in my Indiana home town were based athletic competition. I don't remember anyone ever saying that Howe was or was not superior academically to my school. They thumped us in basketball, though. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> >> I don't know why, then, I thought you lived in McLean for awhile. >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >be academically superior to McLean, but we never heard much about >high school rivalries in our house. In addition, Oakton High School, which my younger brother and sister attended, was constructed after my high school days. Not being football fans, they haven't told me how the football dynamic in the Vienna area changed. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > In addition, Oakton High School, which my younger brother and sister > attended, was constructed after my high school days. Not being > football fans, they haven't told me how the football dynamic in the > Vienna area changed. When my youngest was at McLean they had one outstanding football season. I think they were undefeated in the regular season but didn't win the state championship. Other than that I think they've been pretty middling at best. They certainly don't get much space on the sports pages of The Washington Post. Now, Little League, that's something different. A few years ago the McLean girls won the Little League Softball World Series. I was over there watching my grandson play tee ball the next spring and saw the girls playing a game. I couldn't believe the speed of the pitches. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >> In addition, Oakton High School, which my younger brother and sister >> attended, was constructed after my high school days. Not being [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >saw the girls playing a game. I couldn't believe the speed of the >pitches. What interests me is whether the traditional McLean/JMHS football rivalry has been maintained, whether that has been replaced by an equally intense Oakton/McLean rivalry, or whether there is a now a three-way rivalry. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > I am always impressed by how open Brits are to adopting Americanisms, > and how reluctant Americans are to adopting Briticisms. Though I have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > procedure. I wonder what the source is -- a few British judges on US > reality contests? Isn't "take a decision" a Britishism lately imported to America? And where did "gone missing" come from? Is that a Britishism? SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email > >> I am always impressed by how open Brits are to adopting Americanisms, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Isn't "take a decision" a Britishism lately imported to America? I can't speak for its import, but I expostulated on it a few years ago: http://tinyurl.com/8rhlep > And where did "gone missing" come from? Is that a Britishism? That's entirely normal in BrE. SignatureDavid >> I am always impressed by how open Brits are to adopting Americanisms, >> and how reluctant Americans are to adopting Briticisms. Though I have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Isn't "take a decision" a Britishism lately imported to America? >And where did "gone missing" come from? Is that a Britishism? I think "gone missing" is a Britishism. There was an article in the British newspaper _The Independent on Sunday_ about Briticisms invading American English. The writer was Ben Yagoda who "directs the journalism program at the University of Delaware and is the author of 'The Sound on the Page: Style and Voice in Writing'". http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/american-english--gone-missing-or-just-d isappeared-552711.html or American English - gone missing or just disappeared? The British are used to absorbing American words and phrases - but something's changed. As the empire strikes back, not even 'The New York Times' is safe Ben Yagoda reports Sunday, 11 July 2004 .... As a US journalism professor who regularly teaches study-abroad classes in London, I have been in a position to observe [the American press's] progressive succumbing to temptation, and it has been remarkably rapid. What set the ball rolling, I believe, was use of the verb phrase "to go missing," commonly used in Britain to mean "disappear". This was traditionally unknown in America, which had to make do with "disappear" and the slightly more melodramatic "vanish", both of which have too much of a Siegfried and Roy, presto-chango connotation. "Go missing" and its variants "went missing" and "gone missing" appeared in The New York Times not at all in 1983, and only twice in 1993. In 2001, however, they were employed 24 times. The reason was a major national story about a person who went missing: Chandra Levy, the still-missing former intern of a congressman. And that year was the tipping point. In 2003, the Times had precisely 50 "go missings". .... [Other phrases imported from BrE.] What makes this trend especially notable is that for decades and probably centuries, the linguistic tide flowed west to east across the Atlantic, much to the understandable annoyance of many British people, who wish they weren't subject to "gimme a break," "hey, you guys," and a panoply of other terms, slogans and expressions. One acquaintance is apoplectic about commentators referring to a "round-up" - since when, he wonders, have there been cattle ranches in the UK? So the best explanation of all may be karmic - we in the US were due for a dose of poetic justice. And so, after a lengthy run-up, a number of our home-grown idioms have gone missing. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > .... [Other phrases imported from BrE.] What are they? > What makes this trend especially notable is that for decades and probably > centuries, the linguistic tide flowed west to east across the Atlantic, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > karmic - we in the US were due for a dose of poetic justice. And so, after > a lengthy run-up, a number of our home-grown idioms have gone missing. How about a round-up of possible candidates? Any Americans using "gobsmacked"? A Brit friend who'd been living in Colorado for 2 years in about 1993 denied that it was a British expression at all, and had never heard of it. Any Americans using "w.nkers"? Any Americans using "punters" for people who don't habitually bet on horses? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> .... [Other phrases imported from BrE.] > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Any Americans using "gobsmacked"? I'm familiar with it mostly because of AUE. I think my late father-in-law (born, raised in Ireland) may have used the term. Not sure, though. Btw, "gobsmacked" is not in Merriam-Webster Online (an American dictionary), > A Brit friend who'd been living in Colorado for 2 years in about 1993 > denied that it was a British expression at all, and had never heard > of it. > > Any Americans using "w.nkers"? Not that I know of. Merriam-Webster Online() says: 1 /chiefly British usually vulgar/ : a person who masturbates 2 /chiefly British usually vulgar/ : jerk , dolt I don't think I've ever encountered the word except in AUE and a few British books. > Any Americans using "punters" for people who don't habitually bet on > horses? "Punters," if used much, would refer to American football. But here's what Merriam-Webster Online says: 1: one that punts: as *a*: chiefly British: a person who gambles, especially one who bets against a bookmaker *b*: a person who uses a punt in boating *c*: a person who punts a ball 2chiefly British : customer , patron SignatureMaria C. [...] > Any Americans using "gobsmacked"? > > A Brit friend who'd been living in Colorado for 2 years in about 1993 > denied that it was a British expression at all, and had never heard > of it. I'm in the rare position of being able to identify the 12-month period in which I first heard "gobsmacked", because I know who said it, and where, and why we were there, and that it was our first meeting, and how we laughed. My then wife and I were much taken with the expression, which we thought at the time our interlocutrix had invented. It was between summer 1985 and summer 1986. > Any Americans using "w.nkers"? One of Evan's sigs depends on the speaker's audience knowing it, even if only passively; and I have the impression that the scene was somewhere in North America. From memory, "...--and I must be careful not to fall into Dr Spooner's error here--a group of warring bankers." > Any Americans using "punters" for people who don't habitually bet on > horses? SignatureMike. > I think "gone missing" is a Britishism. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > University of Delaware and is the author of 'The Sound on the Page: > Style and Voice in Writing'". > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/american-english--gone-missing-or-just-d isappeared-552711.html [...] "Go [gone] missing" and "take a decision" are my least favorite phrases from the UK. (Btw, before reading this thread, I didn't know -- or perhaps, didn't remember -- that "take a decision" was British.) "Go missing/gone missing/went missing": this phrasing hints that the missing person is missing of his or her own volition -- he or she decided to go, and went. This may make sense sometimes -- people do leave on their own -- but not all of the time. "Is [or are] missing," on the other hand, leaves volition out of it. The person has "disappeared" or "vanished" from the sight of family, co-workers, etc., by means unknown; the person could have left for a purpose (or "on purpose"), but that is not always the case. "Take a decision": This may be in the USA to stay, but many Americans still say "make a decision," so the "take" version may eventually go away. I can only hope. Thought: Maybe England used to use "vanished/disappeared" and "make a decision" and simply changed over for reasons I do not know. Note: I've read numerous older British mysteries over the years, and don't recall "go/gone/went missing" or "take a decision" at all. Are the phrases relatively recent? Or is my memory faulty? SignatureMaria C. >"Go missing/gone missing/went missing": this phrasing hints that the >missing person is missing of his or her own volition -- he or she [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >co-workers, etc., by means unknown; the person could have left for a >purpose (or "on purpose"), but that is not always the case. I'm not planning to strongly defend the phrase, but the phrase can be explained. If a person does not arrive at a place where she is expected at a particular time she is "missing" from that place. If she does not arrive at any of the places where she can normally be found (including her home) she has "gone missing". She is missing; she was here (in her normal places); she has gone: hence she has "gone missing". >Thought: Maybe England used to use "vanished/disappeared" and "make a >decision" and simply changed over for reasons I do not know. Note: I've >read numerous older British mysteries over the years, and don't recall >"go/gone/went missing" or "take a decision" at all. Are the phrases >relatively recent? Or is my memory faulty? I believe they are relatively recent. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> "Go missing/gone missing/went missing": this phrasing hints that the >> missing person is missing of his or her own volition -- he or she [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > arrive at any of the places where she can normally be found > (including her home) she has "gone missing". To me, she'd still be "missing." (Or: "she's still missing.") > .......She is missing; she was > here (in her normal places); she has gone: I'd say "is gone" in that case, not "has gone." Sort of a "volition" thing, again. > .....hence she has "gone missing". Perhaps it's similar usage to "gone mad." It's an idiom and one cannot always understand or fully explain idioms. (We certainly have a ton of them in this country. Of course, I can't think of one right now.) >> Thought: Maybe England used to use "vanished/disappeared" and "make a >> decision" and simply changed over for reasons I do not know. Note: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I believe they are relatively recent. Thanks for replying, Peter. SignatureMaria C. >"Go [gone] missing" and "take a decision" are my least favorite phrases >from the UK. (Btw, before reading this thread, I didn't know -- or >perhaps, didn't remember -- that "take a decision" was British.) But "take a shower" is chiefly US. >"Go missing/gone missing/went missing": this phrasing hints that the >missing person is missing of his or her own volition -- he or she >decided to go, and went. This may make sense sometimes -- people do >leave on their own -- but not all of the time. I thought, perhaps erroneously, that it is derived from WWI (or earlier) military communiques: "missing, believed killed" and "gone missing" was air force slang for a pilot or aircrew who failed to return from a sortie. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> "Go [gone] missing" and "take a decision" are my least favorite >> phrases from the UK. (Btw, before reading this thread, I didn't know >> -- or perhaps, didn't remember -- that "take a decision" was >> British.) > > But "take a shower" is chiefly US. And what do non-Americans do that corresponds with "take a shower"? "Have a shower"? "Bathe"? Simply "shower"? >> "Go missing/gone missing/went missing": this phrasing hints that the >> missing person is missing of his or her own volition -- he or she [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > missing" was air force slang for a pilot or aircrew who failed to > return from a sortie. I am familiar with "missing in action" but not with "gone missing" as related to war. My father was in the Army Air Force during WWII (England, Belgium, France) but he never used "gone missing." But then, he never talked about the war itself. He did talk about England and tell me of some of the differences between the two countries. I think he wanted to visit again in better circumstances, but that never happened. SignatureMaria C. On 04 Jan 2009, Maria C. wrote >>> "Go [gone] missing" and "take a decision" are my least >>> favorite phrases from the UK. (Btw, before reading this [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And what do non-Americans do that corresponds with "take a > shower"? "Have a shower"? "Bathe"? Simply "shower"? "Have a shower", I'd say -- same as "have a bath". SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >> Steve Hayes wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > "Have a shower", I'd say -- same as "have a bath". And I "take a bath." But it doesn't matter, does it? Just so we're all clean, I'd say. SignatureMaria C. On 04 Jan 2009, Maria C. wrote >>> Steve Hayes wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > But it doesn't matter, does it? Just so we're all clean, I'd say. FWIW, I prefer baths -- but I've known people who figure that it's impossible to be clean after a bath ("You've been sitting in your own dirty water??"). I, on the other hand, never feel properly washed after most[1] showers: I feel like I've not been able to give my feet a really good scrub. [1] I custom-built our current shower stall; it's got a seat built into it, which solve this problem. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed HVS wrote on Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:30:52 GMT: > On 04 Jan 2009, Maria C. wrote >>>> Steve Hayes wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> But it doesn't matter, does it? Just so we're all clean, I'd >> say. > FWIW, I prefer baths -- but I've known people who figure that > it's impossible to be clean after a bath ("You've been sitting > in your own dirty water??"). I, on the other hand, never feel > properly washed after most[1] showers: I feel like I've not been > able to give my feet a really good scrub. > [1] I custom-built our current shower stall; it's got a seat > built into it, which solve this problem. Talk to the Japanese who take a shower before soaking in the bath. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >> FWIW, I prefer baths -- but I've known people who figure that >> it's impossible to be clean after a bath ("You've been sitting [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Talk to the Japanese who take a shower before soaking in the bath. I'm sure there are many folks who take showers /after/ soaking in the bath on that "sitting-in-your-own-dirty-water" premise. Surely I'm not the only one. But I seldom take baths nowadays. It's too hard to get out of the tub from a sitting position. Next: the installation of hand rails in the tub/shower stall. I hope. SignatureMaria C. > Next: the installation of hand rails in the tub/shower stall. I hope. Don't wait, do it now. I came a cropper just before Xmas, the non-slip bath mat skidded from under me and I landed hard on the bath tub side after vainly trying to grab the shower curtain, bruised ribs are still sore. A 36 inch rail and a 24 inch one are now installed in strategic positions, plus a heavy duty new mat. >> Next: the installation of hand rails in the tub/shower stall. I hope. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > bruised ribs are still sore. A 36 inch rail and a 24 inch one are now > installed in strategic positions, plus a heavy duty new mat. My brother brought a whole kit of shower and stuff from Spain (in an Opel Corsa, FGS!): not only is it the last word in elegance, but the floor of the shower enclosure has the most marvellous non-slip finish. To look at, it simply appears matt, so it cleans easily; but I defy anybody to slip a millimetre on it, soap it as they may. And, reverting to an earlier bathtime thread, my sister's refitted boat has a tub with the plug-hole in the middle at one side. It has no holes for taps, but a single spout coming out of the wall. I always use the shower, but the tap-heads are easily pediculable. SignatureMike. > And, reverting to an earlier bathtime thread, my sister's refitted > boat has a tub with the plug-hole in the middle at one side. It has > no holes for taps, but a single spout coming out of the wall. I > always use the shower, but the tap-heads are easily pediculable. "Pediculable"? I can't seem to find that word in any online dictionaries. May I assume it means "able to be manipulated with one's feet"? SignatureMaria C. >> And, reverting to an earlier bathtime thread, my sister's refitted >> boat has a tub with the plug-hole in the middle at one side. It has [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > May I assume it means "able to be manipulated with one's feet"? My guess, out of context, would have been "amenable to lice" from pediculus (louse). SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland >> And, reverting to an earlier bathtime thread, my sister's refitted >> boat has a tub with the plug-hole in the middle at one side. It has [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >May I assume it means "able to be manipulated with one's feet"? Apparently: by (dodgy) analogy. The "mani-" in "manipulated" comes from the Latin "manus" meaning hand "Pedi" comes from the Latin for foot. The word known to the OED is "pedipulate": Now rare. [Humorously < PEDI- comb. form + -pulate (in MANIPULATE v.), after MANIPULATE v.] trans. To work with the feet. Chiefly humorous. This would lead to "pedipulable" by analogy with "manipulable". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> And, reverting to an earlier bathtime thread, my sister's refitted >>> boat has a tub with the plug-hole in the middle at one side. It has [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > This would lead to "pedipulable" by analogy with "manipulable". And a very useful word it is, for those who take taking (BrE: having) baths seriously. I shall make a point of using it on all conceivable occasions henceforward. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>> And, reverting to an earlier bathtime thread, my sister's refitted >>>> boat has a tub with the plug-hole in the middle at one side. It has [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > baths seriously. I shall make a point of using it on all conceivable > occasions henceforward. The credit here belongs to Paul. I can't remember which form he used, but I'll bet he'd have been onto the nit-picking lousy interpretation of the "c" form, which had escaped my notice. In my defence, I shall plead that I had that day been studying c-Celtic inscriptions, which for the time being had thrust the p-forms to the farther reaches of my awareness. This will, of course, be a lie. SignatureMike. >Roland Hutchinson wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >time being had thrust the p-forms to the farther reaches of my >awareness. This will, of course, be a lie. I must duck any glory. The onlie begetter was Katy J, in "Reading in the bath, redux". I own to throwing in an acorn. SignaturePaul >>Roland Hutchinson wrote: >>>> The word known to the OED is "pedipulate": >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >I must duck any glory. The onlie begetter was Katy J, in "Reading in >the bath, redux". I own to throwing in an acorn. It was an accidental mis-quotation on my part, though I admit I rather liked it once I'd done it. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>Roland Hutchinson wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > It was an accidental mis-quotation on my part, though I admit I rather > liked it once I'd done it. And that, as H. Dumpty would say, is glory for you! -- alt.folklore.computers Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> Roland Hutchinson wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > I must duck any glory. The onlie begetter was Katy J, in "Reading in > the bath, redux". I own to throwing in an acorn. Ahem, Message-ID: <B0zRk.27675$yK5.21433@newsfe24.ams2>. SignatureMike Page Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email. >Paul Wolff wrote: >>> Roland Hutchinson wrote: [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > >Ahem, Message-ID: <B0zRk.27675$yK5.21433@newsfe24.ams2>. Blimey. That was all of two months ago. Nobody can expect me to remember everything for that long. Besides, that thread appeared to be about cheese, not about bathing in buffalo milk. Not much of a defence, I admit. SignaturePaul >> The word known to the OED is "pedipulate": >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> This would lead to "pedipulable" by analogy with "manipulable". Thanks! > And a very useful word it is, for those who take taking (BrE: having) baths > seriously. I shall make a point of using it on all conceivable occasions > henceforward. I like the word too, although I'm not in the habit of pedipulating taps. SignatureI worry that 10 or 15 years from now, [my daughter] will come to me and say 'Daddy, where were you when they took freedom of the press away from the Internet?' [Mike Godwin, EFF http://www.eff.org/ ] > FWIW, I prefer baths -- but I've known people who figure that it's > impossible to be clean after a bath ("You've been sitting in your own [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > [1] I custom-built our current shower stall; it's got a seat built > into it, which solve this problem. For various post-surgery reasons a few years ago, I got a hospital-type bath chair for the shower. (I didn't buy it; it was provided free by the "older persons'" facility we belong to.) http://www.makemeheal.com/images/products/estore/10004/10057.jpg The chair isn't needed as much as before, but it does allow me to massage/scrub my feet to make sure I still have full feeling there. (That's a diabetes-related precaution recommended by the doctor.) And speaking of showers/baths, we can't take one at home right now. For some unknown reason, we've had no water all day. Apparently, it's the pump that's not working. We'll know tomorrow. (Having to replace the pump is not as expensive as digging a new well.) It's always something. (But what would we do if everything was always perfect?) SignatureMaria C. HVS filted: >FWIW, I prefer baths -- but I've known people who figure that it's >impossible to be clean after a bath ("You've been sitting in your own >dirty water??"). I, on the other hand, never feel properly washed >after most[1] showers: I feel like I've not been able to give my >feet a really good scrub. I resolve any lingering concerns of this sort by showering with a bath brush....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>> Steve Hayes wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > But it doesn't matter, does it? Just so we're all clean, I'd say. I'm far from sure, but I think I usually "take a shower" but "have a bath". This looks to me like an idiosyncratic usage, though. Note again that BrEtcE "wash up" refers to washing utensils or crockery, but "do the dishes" is also used. Washing oneself is "having a wash", or sometimes just "washing". For clothes it's "do the/some washing". SignatureMike. > I'm far from sure, but I think I usually "take a shower" but "have a > bath". This looks to me like an idiosyncratic usage, though. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "having a wash", or sometimes just "washing". For clothes it's "do > the/some washing". For me, "wash up" is the activity wherein one takes a "sponge bath." That is, a person just washes his or her face and hands and any other areas needing attention. For me, the alternative to "doing the dishes" is "clearing up" after [the meal]. This can involve every step from washing to putting away in the cupboard. We also may load the dishes in the dishwasher, which could involve rinsing them first. (If they're going to sit in the dishwasher for a long time before they're washed, rinsing them first is not a bad idea.) Now, I need to log off. My daughter and son-in-law are due for birthday cake (s-i-l will be 35 tomorrow). Ciao, Maria C. >> Now, I need to log off. My daughter and son-in-law are due for > birthday cake (s-i-l will be 35 tomorrow). Daughter and s-i-l haven't arrived yet (there was no specific time involved), but I did pry myself away from the computer for a half-hour or so to get some things ready. > Ciao, > Maria C. > Note again that BrEtcE "wash up" refers to washing utensils or crockery, > but "do the dishes" is also used. Washing oneself is "having a wash", or > sometimes just "washing". For clothes it's "do the/some washing". It was years before I realised that it wasn't doing the dishes that Bruce did between work and racing in the street. Seriously. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > > Note again that BrEtcE "wash up" refers to washing utensils or crockery, > > but "do the dishes" is also used. Washing oneself is "having a wash", or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Seriously. Suddenly, it becomes a song about a responsible young man doing his chores before going out with his friends. SignatureSML >>> "Go [gone] missing" and "take a decision" are my least favorite >>> phrases from the UK. (Btw, before reading this thread, I didn't know [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >And what do non-Americans do that corresponds with "take a shower"? >"Have a shower"? "Bathe"? Simply "shower"? "Have a shower" or simply "shower", as far as I know. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk On 04 Jan 2009, Maria C. wrote > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > or she decided to go, and went. This may make sense sometimes -- > people do leave on their own -- but not all of the time. See below; in UK usage I'd say it allows that volition *may* be involved, but doesn't imply that it is involved. > "Is [or are] missing," on the other hand, leaves volition out of > it. The person has "disappeared" or "vanished" from the sight of > family, co-workers, etc., by means unknown; the person could > have left for a purpose (or "on purpose"), but that is not > always the case. My take on the UK usage: "is missing": a statement of fact; police-speak "disappeared": now-you-see-him-now-you-don't; disappeared just like that [snap fingers]; no idea what happened, guv; search me "vanished": "disappeared" when described by those who are fond of dramatising things "gone missing": don't know what's happened to him; not like him to leave without saying something; might have just done a runner, but it could be more sinister SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > "is missing": a statement of fact; police-speak And that's what I'd expect from American police, newspapers, and TV newscasters. It isn't what we get, though. Nowadays, especially on TV, we get "gone missing." That sounds just fine coming from the British, but US police/newspapers/TV are not British. They (the copycat Americans) are just too-too look-at-me-I-use-the-latest-news-speak.* *Maybe s/b "newspeak" but I like "news-speak" because the phrase ("gone missing") is often on/in the news. > "disappeared": now-you-see-him-now-you-don't; disappeared just > like that [snap fingers]; no idea what happened, guv; search me [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to leave without saying something; might have just done a runner, > but it could be more sinister Good defs. Thanks, H. SignatureMaria C. >>> [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >but US police/newspapers/TV are not British. They (the copycat >Americans) are just too-too look-at-me-I-use-the-latest-news-speak.* I don't understand this reaction, any more than I've ever understood the converse reaction from some British people. It seems clear that, as communication becomes more international, most users of English are increasingly unlikly to have any idea which side of the pond particular usages originated - nor does there seem to be any good reason why they should be expected or required to have any. Its all English. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" > >And that's what I'd expect from American police, newspapers, and TV > >newscasters. It isn't what we get, though. Nowadays, especially on TV, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > reason why they should be expected or required to have any. Its all > English. Yet there are different attitudes involved in whether to keep to the style of English known to your family and childhood and whether to freely talk like "foreigners." My impression is that mostly because of Hollywood, the jazz age, etc, Britons have been happy to adopt Americanisms, so you, being British, would assume the reverse is true. But cultural barriers and acceptance are not perfectly symmetrical. For several centuries, Americans had to struggle to prove that their English was perfectly legitimate and not the inferior remnant of a colonial backwater. Rather than somehow trying to ape the faraway and changing British way of talking, we took pride in our own developments. I've seen evidence of this happening whether other cultures collide -- one side takes pride in shaping its identity by clinging to its own standards and rejecting what might appear to be superior force. Maybe some of the British attitudes toward being absorbed into Europe would be an analogous situation. Another analogy, in not in your lifetime then within solid literary memory, is the way in which people in Britain either did or not try to speak like others from different social classes, or others from geographical districts. If the doctor's son started talking like the stablehand, did not the doctor and his wife hush him up? If you met some teenager from Newcastle, would you feel good about freely borrowing all his words and phrases? I don't mean in casual mimicry but actually employing them? Wouldn't you think, at least, 'I don't need to talk like he does, I have a perfectly good vocabulary of my own'? As to the mechanisms by which this happens -- I don't know about today, but when I was a child, and from what I've read about earlier and elsewhere, one would be the mighty force of the playground. Children can tease and pound on each other for talking "wrong" and "funny" and "la-di-da." So by the time of adulthood, we are wary. But yes, I imagine that once a phrase has crossed some mysterious threshhold of resistance, like "gone missing" and "over the top," Americans will start hearing it from other Americans, which will accelerate its spread. It will then live or die from its pure usefulness or lack of it. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Donna Richoux filted: >Another analogy, in not in your lifetime then within solid literary >memory, is the way in which people in Britain either did or not try to [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >accelerate its spread. It will then live or die from its pure >usefulness or lack of it. It was about two years after a massive influx of contract employees from India that I started noticing my US-born-and-bred colleagues speaking in the present progressive ("I am needing to schedule a meeting so that we can be discussing this") and nodding in figure-eights....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" On 05 Jan 2009, R H Draney wrote > It was about two years after a massive influx of contract > employees from India that I started noticing my US-born-and-bred > colleagues speaking in the present progressive ("I am needing to > schedule Did they say "shedule" or "skedule"? SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > Donna Richoux filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > the present progressive ("I am needing to schedule a meeting so that we > can be discussing this") and nodding in figure-eights....r That sort of thing sneaks up on people who are exposed to other dialects -- they will only resist foreign-sounding words and phrases when they are consciously aware of them. The example in my own field (which I think I've mentioned here before) is that when the first edition of the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians (a/k/a Grove 6) was published about twenty-five years ago it immediately became the reference work of choice, and American students started picking up British terminology without thinking about it -- not the most obvious Briticisms like "semibreve" for "whole note" but more subtle things like "part writing" and "common chord" and general-prose, non-musical Briticisms besides. At least one respected American style guide noticed this and made a point of warning American music students against it. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >The example in my own field (which I think I've mentioned here before) is >that when the first edition of the New Grove Dictionary of Music and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >noticed this and made a point of warning American music students against >it. Did the warning have any noticeable effect? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>The example in my own field (which I think I've mentioned here before) is >>that when the first edition of the New Grove Dictionary of Music and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> > Did the warning have any noticeable effect? Hard to say. The previous reference work of choice was the German-language MGG (Die Musik in Geschichte und Gegenwart). No danger there, as American musicological lingo was already full of Germanisms. Now we've got second editions of both New Grove and MGG running neck-in-neck for up-to-dateness. There are plenty of articles written in English for the German work and translated, and vice-versa, too. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >Now we've got second editions of both New Grove and MGG running neck-in-neck Is "neck-in-neck" a usual form? I know "neck and neck" which is often pronounced "neck 'n' neck". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>Now we've got second editions of both New Grove and MGG running >>neck-in-neck > > Is "neck-in-neck" a usual form? I know "neck and neck" which is often > pronounced "neck 'n' neck". I have no horse in this race. "Neck and neck" it should be. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. [...] > That sort of thing sneaks up on people who are exposed to other > dialects -- they will only resist foreign-sounding words and phrases [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > least one respected American style guide noticed this and made a > point of warning American music students against it. Which of our two cousinries is responsible for the practice of calling a body of music "the literature"? It narks me proper chronic: I don't expect to hear about Shakespeare's "sculpture". SignatureMike. >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >body of music "the literature"? It narks me proper chronic: I don't >expect to hear about Shakespeare's "sculpture". Looks to me to be a potential doctoral thesis. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > body of music "the literature"? It narks me proper chronic: I don't > expect to hear about Shakespeare's "sculpture". I'm guessing America as it is possibly a Germanism. I think immediately of the standard bibliography of viola repertoire, Zeyringer's _Literatur für Viola_. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. snip >Which of our two cousinries is responsible for the practice of calling a >body of music "the literature"? It narks me proper chronic: I don't >expect to hear about Shakespeare's "sculpture". I was blissfully unaware of this usage until now. I wish I didn't know about it. >> >And that's what I'd expect from American police, newspapers, and TV >> >newscasters. It isn't what we get, though. Nowadays, especially on TV, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Hollywood, the jazz age, etc, Britons have been happy to adopt >Americanisms, so you, being British, would assume the reverse is true. Back in the first half of the twentieth century Mencken documented a number of cases of British adoption of Americanisms in "The American language". Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > Back in the first half of the twentieth century Mencken > documented a number of cases of British adoption of Americanisms > in "The American language". It has been a long time since I read Mencken. I started going through it again just now to see if he would happen to reinforce my theory about the way these attitudes change. So far he seems to be emphasizing the differences between the British English and American English of his day (1921). Some interesting bits in Chapter 1, Section 3: ... the English have a great deal more difficulty with American, and devote a great deal of attention to its peculiarities -- often with very ill grace. For a long while, as we shall see in the next chapter, they viewed its differentiation from standard English with frank indignation, and sought to put an end to the process by violent denunciation; even so late as the period of the Civil War their chief spokesman saw in every Americanism that quality of abhorrent barbarism which they looked upon as the salient mark of the American people. That's the attitude I said that Americans had to defend themselves against. I think there's more about that in the "Dictionary of Americanisms" by John Russell Bartlett (1848) -- I'll look at that again soon. Continuing Mencken: ... The Eleventh Edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica, ... says that the two languages are already so far apart that "it is not uncommon to meet with [American] newspaper articles of which an untravelled Englishman would hardly be able to understand a sentence." ... I like the next bit because it specifically points to Hollywood (in this case, silent movies) as the agent of change that taught American slang to British audiences: Early in 1920 the London Daily News began a formal agitation of the subject, and laid particular stress upon the menace that American moving-pictures offered to the purity of the English learned and used by children. I quote from a characteristic contribution to the discussion: [London Daily News:] I visited two picture theatres today for the express purpose of collecting slang phrases and of noticing the effect of the new language on the child as well as on the adult. What the villain said to the hero when the latter started to argue with him was, "Cut out that dope," and a hundred piping voices repeated the injunction. The comic man announced his marriage to the Belle of Lumbertown by saying, "I'm hitched." ... [End LDN] The same writer protested bitterly against the intrusion of such commonplace Americanisms as fire-water, daffy, forget it, and bootlegger. I haven't yet gotten to any examples of Americanisms that the British had embraced, but it's probably in there. The American Language by H.L. Mencken (1921) can be found at: http://www.bartleby.com/185/1.html SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> Back in the first half of the twentieth century Mencken >> documented a number of cases of British adoption of Americanisms [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >That's the attitude I said that Americans had to defend themselves >against. That's why Mencken thought the adoption of many Americanisms to be ironic. I actually managed to read (finally) an abridged edition combining all three volumes of The American Language so I don't know if your citationw ould match mine. Especially since you don't menrion whether you are quoting from the original or one of the two supplements. Even the one-volume abridgement is a bit thick for finding my reference quickly. >I think there's more about that in the "Dictionary of >Americanisms" by John Russell Bartlett (1848) -- I'll look at that again >soon. >Continuing Mencken: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >The American Language by H.L. Mencken (1921) can be found at: >http://www.bartleby.com/185/1.html I have a bound edition here somewhere, but we recently had to move the shelving and things got a bit jumbled. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * [snipped] > That's why Mencken thought the adoption of many Americanisms to > be ironic. I actually managed to read (finally) an abridged [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > one of the two supplements. Even the one-volume abridgement is a > bit thick for finding my reference quickly. On the Table of Contents, the Bartleby version says SECOND EDITION, REVISED AND ENLARGED. The Preface to the Second Edition explains the enlargements. http://www.bartleby.com/185/ [snip] > >I haven't yet gotten to any examples of Americanisms that the British > >had embraced, but it's probably in there. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I have a bound edition here somewhere, but we recently had to > move the shelving and things got a bit jumbled. I see a promising entry in the Table of Contents: International Exchanges 1. Americanisms in England 2. Briticisms in the United States SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >[snipped] >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > International Exchanges > 1. Americanisms in England Ah. In my one-volume abridged that's "The infiltration of English by Americanisms. After mentioning the "pious horror" of Brits of Americanisms, the second sentence is, "The tide began to turn, according to Sir Wiliam Craigie, in 1820.." There follows a number of words most of us woulnd never have guessed to be Americanisms, such as "reliable, influential, talented and lengthy." Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 22:28:09 +0100, trio@euronet.nl (Donna >>> Richoux) wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> >The American Language by H.L. Mencken (1921) can be found at: >>> >http://www.bartleby.com/185/1.html [...] >Ah. In my one-volume abridged that's "The infiltration of English >by Americanisms. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >of us woulnd never have guessed to be Americanisms, such as >"reliable, influential, talented and lengthy." Not just Americanisms, but Texanisms, to judge by the jokes I hear. SignaturePaul > "Is [or are] missing," on the other hand, leaves volition out of > it. The person has "disappeared" or "vanished" from the sight of > family, co-workers, etc., by means unknown; the person could have left > for a purpose (or "on purpose"), but that is not always the case. But it does rather prompt the Wodehousian response: ''I say,' he said, 'my father's missing.' 'On how many cylinders?' asked Lord Bromborough. He was a man who liked his joke of a morning. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >> "Is [or are] missing," on the other hand, leaves volition out of >> it. The person has "disappeared" or "vanished" from the sight of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 'On how many cylinders?' asked Lord Bromborough. He was a man who > liked his joke of a morning. Heh-heh. That's the sort of line I like but wouldn't always think of saying. SignatureMaria C. Maria C. filted: >> ''I say,' he said, 'my father's missing.' >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Heh-heh. That's the sort of line I like but wouldn't always think of >saying. Actual exchange, circa 1993: Former boss: "When I get to Salt Lake City, I'm going to do some genealogical research...I want to find an uncle of mine that I lost there in the 1940s." Me (under my breath, but apparently still audible): "Have you looked behind the sofa?" ....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Maria C. filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Me (under my breath, but apparently still audible): "Have you looked > behind the sofa?" Surgeon to good old Graeme Thomas's brother: "We'll operate as soon as we find a theatre." G.o.G.T.b., helpfully: "They're on the top floor." SignatureMike. >"Go [gone] missing" and "take a decision" are my least favorite phrases >from the UK. (Btw, before reading this thread, I didn't know -- or >perhaps, didn't remember -- that "take a decision" was British.) I think my pet hate from BrE is transitive "agree", but I don't think it's made it to this side of the Atlantic. That would be followed closely by leaving periods off the ends of non-initialism abbreviations, particularly the Latinate ones like "e.g." and "i.e.". I'm sorry, "eg" is just indefensible. And don't get me started on the practice British journos of writing acronyms like "NATO" with only the first letter capitalized. -GAWollman PS: When changing the subject, please use parentheses, not (square) brackets. Balanced parentheses indicate comments in mail and news headers; brackets have no particular meaning. SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >I think my pet hate from BrE is transitive "agree", but I don't think >it's made it to this side of the Atlantic. That would be followed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >practice British journos of writing acronyms like "NATO" with only the >first letter capitalized. If you insist on e.g., why not insist on N.A.T.O.? I'm not sue on transitive "agree" -- I thought it was an Americanism, like "protesting" anything other than innocence. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>I think my pet hate from BrE is transitive "agree", but I don't think >>it's made it to this side of the Atlantic. That would be followed [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I'm not sue on transitive "agree" -- I thought it was an Americanism, like >"protesting" anything other than innocence. Well, for one thing we pronounce "NATO" as if a word, but no one pronunces "eg". Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>I think my pet hate from BrE is transitive "agree", but I don't think >>>it's made it to this side of the Atlantic. That would be followed [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Well, for one thing we pronounce "NATO" as if a word, but no one >pronunces "eg". But you can't pronounce "ie" or "eg" (not by themselves as real words), so why bother with the stops? SignatureIan >>>I think my pet hate from BrE is transitive "agree", but I don't think >>>it's made it to this side of the Atlantic. That would be followed [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Well, for one thing we pronounce "NATO" as if a word, but no one >pronunces "eg". That's why some style manuals recommend "Nato". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>>I think my pet hate from BrE is transitive "agree", but I don't think >>>>it's made it to this side of the Atlantic. That would be followed [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >That's why some style manuals recommend "Nato". That sort of thing always bothers me somewhat. There is no such thing as Nato. There is NATO, which is (are?) the initials of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >>>Well, for one thing we pronounce "NATO" as if a word, but no one >>>pronunces "eg". [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >thing as Nato. There is NATO, which is (are?) the initials of the >North Atlantic Treaty Organization. And then there's "natto", a sort of fermented soybean chutney....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Hatunen filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > And then there's "natto", a sort of fermented soybean chutney....r <http://www.thesneeze.com/mt-archives/000169.php> Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> Hatunen filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > <http://www.thesneeze.com/mt-archives/000169.php> Yep, that's the stuff. It is the single most disgusting substance ever presented to me in the guise of food. SignatureDavid >>> Hatunen filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Yep, that's the stuff. It is the single most disgusting substance ever >presented to me in the guise of food. "fermented soybean chutney" told me all I needed to know. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * [...] >>>> And then there's "natto", a sort of fermented soybean chutney....r >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > "fermented soybean chutney" told me all I needed to know. I'm fascinated by store sauces, relishes, and the like, and regularly try old recipes, invent new ones, and attempt to duplicate some of the things one can buy. Never tried natto, but I did once try to make soy sauce (applying general principles, without the unfair advantage which would have been conferred by a recipe). After a few days the stink in the kitchen was intolerable, so I chucked it away before it got too saucy. SignatureMike. >[...] >>>>> And then there's "natto", a sort of fermented soybean chutney....r [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >the kitchen was intolerable, so I chucked it away before it got too >saucy. I tried one of M Jaffrey's recipes for lime pickle once. The first step requires limes, sea salt, sunshine and a couple of weeks. I ended up with some nicely-rotting limes. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >> [...] >>>>>> And then there's "natto", a sort of fermented soybean [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > step requires limes, sea salt, sunshine and a couple of weeks. I > ended up with some nicely-rotting limes. I did a similar one, and it ended up tasting like lavatory cleaner--maybe it was that one. Mind you, I suspect that at least one of the recipes in her /Eastern Vegetarian Cooking/actually /means/ the limes to go darkly rotten. Her one for limes pickled in hot oil, on the other hand, is an absolute knockout, and I make a few jars of my variant every year, mostly to give for Christmas. You can use sunflower or rapeseed oil, which is not proper, but works. For mustard oil you have to find an Indian-type shop which sells it, coyly labelled under some EC rule "For external use only": this caution you can ignore, just as all the other customers do (I not only asked them, but went online and asked around). I always put the jar on a newspaper in the sink, even before the day I exploded a jar when adding the hot oil. Greaseproof paper disc on top so you can peel away any mould: it's only happened once or twice though. SignatureMike. >> I tried one of M Jaffrey's recipes for lime pickle once. The first >> step requires limes, sea salt, sunshine and a couple of weeks. I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the other customers do (I not only asked them, but went online and asked > around). It's not just an EC rule. I bought mustard oil in an Indian grocery store in New York once, then noticed after I got it home that it was labeled: "for external use only." I took it back to the store, where they refunded my money and made no attempt to convince me that it really was quite OK for cooking. Perce >>> I tried one of M Jaffrey's recipes for lime pickle once. The first >>> step requires limes, sea salt, sunshine and a couple of weeks. I [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Perce Whereas the Spanish cooking oil that resulted in several hundred deaths in the 1960s was assumed to be fit for human consupmption. >>> [...] >>>>>>> And then there's "natto", a sort of fermented soybean [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >on top so you can peel away any mould: it's only happened once or twice >though. That recipe I don't have, but neither do I have an Indian-type shop within my travel distance, so I cop out and buy Major Grey's Hot Lime Pickle, a small bottle of which lasts me several months. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England the wrote on Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:31:31 GMT: >>> Hatunen filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> <http://www.thesneeze.com/mt-archives/000169.php> > Yep, that's the stuff. It is the single most disgusting > substance ever presented to me in the guise of food. Exactly! I tried it once and I never will again and ordinarily, I like Japanese food except for salmon skin rolls and barbecued eel. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > the wrote: >>>> And then there's "natto", a sort of fermented soybean >>>> chutney....r [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Exactly! I tried it once and I never will again and ordinarily, I like > Japanese food except for salmon skin rolls and barbecued eel. Oh, eel is good. Baked lamprey is even better. I had those in Latvia when I lived there and again when we visited there in recent times. Yumm! SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> the wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Oh, eel is good. Baked lamprey is even better. I had those in Latvia when >I lived there and again when we visited there in recent times. Yumm! Those are OK, but I draw the line at jellyfish, an animal the Chinese and others are acquiring a taste for, now that they are so plentiful in the world's oceans. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Skitt wrote, in <gk0o0m$p8c$1@news.albasani.net> on Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:03:44 -0800: > > the wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Oh, eel is good. Baked lamprey is even better. I had those in Latvia when > I lived there and again when we visited there in recent times. Yumm! Just don't eat too many. Remember Henry I. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_of_England> SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >Skitt wrote, in <gk0o0m$p8c$1@news.albasani.net> > on Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:03:44 -0800: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Just don't eat too many. Remember Henry I. ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_of_England> Reading Abbey again. Reading the quoted article, I see that among Henry's offspring were, of course, lots of FitzRoys, FitzRoy being 'son of the king'. I noticed something else in the narrative: Walter FitzOther, Constable of Windsor Castle and Keeper of the Forests of Berkshire. Little Walter's paternity was evidently left to the imagination. I hope he wasn't too embarrassed by the label. Imagine the school rollcall. SignaturePaul >I see that among Henry's offspring were, of >course, lots of FitzRoys, FitzRoy being 'son of the king'. I noticed >something else in the narrative: Walter FitzOther, Constable of Windsor >Castle and Keeper of the Forests of Berkshire. Little Walter's >paternity was evidently left to the imagination. I hope he wasn't too >embarrassed by the label. Imagine the school rollcall. Then there was the very adaptable Wunsize FitzAll. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) [Henry I] > Reading Abbey again. > Reading the quoted article, I see that among Henry's offspring > were, of course, lots of FitzRoys, FitzRoy being 'son of the king'. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > hope he wasn't too embarrassed by the label. Imagine the school > rollcall. At last it can be revealed. He was a Sackville-Baggins. Never a cat about when you want one. The name Sackville - containing the word sack - was intentionally related to Baggins - containing the word bag. Otho Baggins took the hyphenated name Sackville-Baggins because he became the head of the Sackville family through his mother. http://www.tuckborough.net/baggins.html >>Skitt wrote, in <gk0o0m$p8c$1@news.albasani.net> >> on Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:03:44 -0800: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >paternity was evidently left to the imagination. I hope he wasn't too >embarrassed by the label. Imagine the school rollcall. Walter FitzOther de Windsor was so called because his father's name was Other, a varient form of Otho. Or so the story goes, although I suspect a copyist's misreading of a scribal flourish. The name was revived for his descendant, Other Windsor, who was born in 1659, and has since become traditional in the family. The present Earl of Plymouth is Other Robert Ivor Windsor-Clive. Note that these Windsors are not to be confused with a certain family of German origin which appropriated the name more recently. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:08:36 +0000, Paul Wolff ><bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >are not to be confused with a certain family of German origin which >appropriated the name more recently. Oh dear, I do hope his lordship wasn't watching me make fun of his noble name. I had thought nine hundred years from Walter a safe interval. SignaturePaul >>On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:08:36 +0000, Paul Wolff >><bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Oh dear, I do hope his lordship wasn't watching me make fun of his noble > name. I had thought nine hundred years from Walter a safe interval. Nobody expects the Berkshire Inquisition! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:08:36 +0000, Paul Wolff >> <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > noble name. I had thought nine hundred years from Walter a safe > interval. They're starving the rats and rusting the fetters in the earley dungeon even as we write. But I wonder if the name Other is influenced by Uther, as in Pendragon, or Ohthere, as with Wulfstan. (Are these, indeed, the same name, even though one seems British and the other presumably Germanic?) SignatureMike. >>> Hatunen filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Yep, that's the stuff. It is the single most disgusting substance ever >presented to me in the guise of food. Worse than mushy peas? Worse than raw oysters? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> Hatunen filted: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Worse than mushy peas? Worse than raw oysters? Mushy peas are not at the top of my list, but are perfectly edible. Raw oysters are tolerable, although I wouldn't often choose one for fun. Natto is so disgusting that it was difficult to believe that anybody could consider it to be food. And that's compared with all the slightly unpleasant food they give you in Japan, such as raw langoustines. BTW, there are many varieties of cuisine in Japan, of which only one involves raw fish. Many of the local foods seem to be of lower status and so are not offered to honoured visitors, but I spent a few days with a young engineer who took us to restaurants where she would normally eat, and we discovered a variety of delicious meals. I particuarly liked Okonomiyaki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okonomiyaki which we cooked ourselves at a hot plate embedded in the table in the restaurant table. I say "restaurant", but in Japanese terms it was a "caff". SignatureDavid the wrote on Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:36:00 GMT: > Mushy peas are not at the top of my list, but are perfectly > edible. Raw oysters are tolerable, although I wouldn't often choose > one for fun. Natto is so disgusting that it was > difficult to believe that anybody could consider it to be > food. And that's compared with all the slightly unpleasant > food they give you in Japan, such as raw langoustines. > BTW, there are many varieties of cuisine in Japan, of which > only one involves raw fish. Many of the local foods seem to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > embedded in the table in the restaurant table. I say > "restaurant", but in Japanese terms it was a "caff". I am very fond of raw oysters and, IMHO, cooking them is a mistake. Even sushi restaurants serve some cooked items. Shrimp is served both cooked and uncooked (sweet) and I don't like it raw. Japanese restaurant and culinary terms are a fascinating study. Have you heard of a fairly new one: "Chikin Katsu" (chicken cutlet)? The "katsu" part from "cutlet" has been around a long time as have others learned or modified from the words of 16th and 17th century Portugese traders, like tempura. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > the wrote on Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:36:00 GMT: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > modified from the words of 16th and 17th century Portugese traders, like > tempura. Ah, no, but I have eaten in a "Tonkatsu" - pork cutlet - restaurant in Tokyo. There are so many restaurants in urban Japan that many of them specialise quite narrowly. The pork was beaten fairly thin and served with Tonkatsu sauce which was utterly delicious. I have a bottle of the sauce in my cupboard - I spotted it in the Chinese supermarket but haven't got around to trying it yet. SignatureDavid > the wrote on Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:36:00 GMT: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >modified from the words of 16th and 17th century Portugese traders, like >tempura. Eating raw oysters is a macho demonstration, isn't it, to show observers the diner doesn't mind swallowing the ugliest and slimiest of creatures? Some soldiers will eat a raw worm in public for the same reason. Since oysters can't be enjoyable when they are swallowed whole, it seems to me, this is the only explanation I've been able to come up with. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >Eating raw oysters is a macho demonstration, isn't it, to show >observers the diner doesn't mind swallowing the ugliest and slimiest >of creatures? Some soldiers will eat a raw worm in public for the same >reason. Since oysters can't be enjoyable when they are swallowed >whole, it seems to me, this is the only explanation I've been able to >come up with. On the American cable Travel Channel there is a regular program called "Bizarre Foods" hosted by one Andy Zimmern who travels the world trying some extraordinarily gross foods eaten by the locals. From time to time he ingests something that makes me want to look away, but of course I can't. http://www.travelchannel.com/TV_Shows/Bizarre_Foods Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >On the American cable Travel Channel there is a regular program >called "Bizarre Foods" hosted by one Andy Zimmern who travels the >world trying some extraordinarily gross foods eaten by the >locals. From time to time he ingests something that makes me want >to look away, but of course I can't. Zimmern is the one who makes disparaging remarks about exotic dishes and then wolfs them down...this distinguishes him from his colleague Anthony Bourdain who wolfs down exotic dishes and *then* insults them....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" Chuck wrote on Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:47:51 +0000: >> the wrote on Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:36:00 GMT: >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> the words of 16th and 17th century Portugese traders, like >> tempura. > Eating raw oysters is a macho demonstration, isn't it, to show > observers the diner doesn't mind swallowing the ugliest and > slimiest of creatures? Some soldiers will eat a raw worm in > public for the same reason. Since oysters can't be enjoyable > when they are swallowed whole, it seems to me, this is the > only explanation I've been able to come up with. I think this discussion is descending into an attempt to start a war. Some people claim to be disgusted by the sight of an uncooked oyster, others have no such reaction. Some people dislike the taste and texture but I'd guess that a majority who have tried like them. There's nothing macho about it; a lot of women like them too. For myself, 6 oysters, sauce mignonette, a glass of white wine and some French bread form an ideal lunch. De gustibus, Chuck. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Chuck wrote on Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:47:51 +0000: >> Eating raw oysters is a macho demonstration, isn't it, to show >> observers the diner doesn't mind swallowing the ugliest and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >De gustibus, Chuck. From a non-macho woman's point of view, I entirely agree with James. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> Chuck wrote on Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:47:51 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > From a non-macho woman's point of view, I entirely agree with James. Real men chew crunchy food. On 08 Jan 2009, Irwell wrote >>> Chuck wrote on Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:47:51 +0000: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Real men chew crunchy food. Boy, is *that* inviting a crude 'n' rude response.... SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >> Real men chew crunchy food. > > Boy, is *that* inviting a crude 'n' rude response.... Why would you think that? AUE is never "crude 'n' rude." I'd say it's just "crude 'n' clever." Having nothing clever to say, I remain, Maria C. On 08 Jan 2009, Maria C. wrote >>> Real men chew crunchy food. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Having nothing clever to say, I remain, > Maria C. No, no: that was a clever comment. Not very crude, though... SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >> I am very fond of raw oysters and, IMHO, cooking them is a mistake. >> Even sushi restaurants serve some cooked items. Shrimp is served >> both cooked and uncooked (sweet) and I don't like it raw. [...] > Eating raw oysters is a macho demonstration, isn't it, to show > observers the diner doesn't mind swallowing the ugliest and slimiest > of creatures? Some soldiers will eat a raw worm in public for the same > reason. Since oysters can't be enjoyable when they are swallowed > whole, it seems to me, this is the only explanation I've been able to > come up with. Once, at a party 35+ years ago, I ate a raw oyster -- swallowed it whole -- just on a dare. Most of the men at the party were doing it (one exception: my husband) so I said I'd give it a try. So did a few other women. Once you get past the /idea/ of it, it's nothing. No taste, no thrill, no reaction. It was fun, though. (And I'd only had a drink or two, not enough to make me stupid.) SignatureMaria C. >>> I am very fond of raw oysters and, IMHO, cooking them is a mistake. >>> Even sushi restaurants serve some cooked items. Shrimp is served [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >no reaction. It was fun, though. (And I'd only had a drink or two, not >enough to make me stupid.) Interesting. I was introduced to oysters in Houston in February or March, 1973, during a long business trip. It was shirtsleeve weather, and we used to have long lunches where, being IBMers, we'd talk mainly business sitting outside a restaurant near the office. The menu was simple. They'd bring large platters of oysters and shrimp, caught in Texas Bay that morning, and served on ice, until you'd had enough. The final course was southern fried chicken with okra and rice. Literally all you could eat for $7 each. I thought the oysters were magnificent, better than any I've eaten in France. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England Robin Bignall filted: >Interesting. I was introduced to oysters in Houston in February or >March, 1973, during a long business trip. It was shirtsleeve weather, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >all you could eat for $7 each. I thought the oysters were >magnificent, better than any I've eaten in France. If one is obligated to eat the okra, "all I could eat" wouldn't have been worth $7....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Robin Bignall filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >If one is obligated to eat the okra, "all I could eat" wouldn't have been worth >$7....r I guess, even in Texas, they wouldn't have shot you had you left it on the plate. But we weren't introduced to okra until the late 1960s when a friend married an Indian guy who used to grow it in his garden. He used to kid my (first) wife that "Ladies' Fingers" were an aphrodisiac. When I was still able to eat vegetables I didn't mind it so much, compared, say, with beetroot, which I detest. But, must away to take the dog for his late-night check that the garden is still there. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > If one is obligated to eat the okra, "all I could eat" wouldn't have > been worth $7....r My mother was such a good cook that even okra was a delight. She breaded it, of course. (Well, corn-mealed it.) Perhaps for that reason, or perhaps for some other reason, her okra wasn't as bitter as okra from some other cooks. Maria, who still likes okra -- when it's prepared /properly/. ("Properly" in my case means Southern Style. >> If one is obligated to eat the okra, "all I could eat" wouldn't have >> been worth $7....r [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Maria, who still likes okra -- when it's prepared /properly/. >("Properly" in my case means Southern Style. "Okra" is African for "icky, slimey green stuff". Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> If one is obligated to eat the okra, "all I could eat" wouldn't have >> been worth $7....r [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Maria, who still likes okra -- when it's prepared /properly/. >("Properly" in my case means Southern Style. No matter how it is prepared, okra sucks, IMO. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > > If one is obligated to eat the okra, "all I could eat" wouldn't have > > been worth $7....r [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > perhaps for some other reason, her okra wasn't as bitter as okra from > some other cooks. It's not the bitterness, it's the slime. I know, I know, okra lovers say that if it's cooked right it's not slimy, but if so I've never met anyone who knows how to cook it right. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >>> If one is obligated to eat the okra, "all I could eat" wouldn't have >>> been worth $7....r [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > lovers say that if it's cooked right it's not slimy, but if so I've > never met anyone who knows how to cook it right. Unfortunately, it's too late to meet my mother. (I wish I'd watched her fix okra, but....) There used to be a place in Detroit that served good okra -- much like my mother's -- but it's no longer open. Phooey. SignatureMaria C. John Varela filted: >> > If one is obligated to eat the okra, "all I could eat" wouldn't have >> > been worth $7....r [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >lovers say that if it's cooked right it's not slimy, but if so I've >never met anyone who knows how to cook it right. The funny thing is, I *like* soursop drinks, and can enjoy those viscous "basil seed" drinks they sell at the same places, and they're every bit as slimy as okra....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" John wrote on 10 Jan 2009 02:26:35 GMT: > >> If one is obligated to eat the okra, "all I could eat" > >> wouldn't have been worth $7....r [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> for that reason, or perhaps for some other reason, her okra >> wasn't as bitter as okra from some other cooks. > It's not the bitterness, it's the slime. I know, I know, okra > lovers say that if it's cooked right it's not slimy, but if so > I've never met anyone who knows how to cook it right. Okra can be quite good and non-slimy. Indian cooking has several appetizing dishes including a raita (flavored yoghurt with vegetables) made with sliced okra cooked until crisp. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > John wrote on 10 Jan 2009 02:26:35 GMT: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >appetizing dishes including a raita (flavored yoghurt with vegetables) >made with sliced okra cooked until crisp. My Indian friend used to cut the tops and bottoms off, fry them and then drop them into one or other of his curries. Back in the mid-1960s my wife and I were students living on grants and those didn't run to eating out much, so curries were a bit of a novelty, particularly when made with fresh spices and with ingredients that we normally hadn't come across often or at all. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> I am very fond of raw oysters and, IMHO, cooking them is a mistake. >>> Even sushi restaurants serve some cooked items. Shrimp is served [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >no reaction. It was fun, though. (And I'd only had a drink or two, not >enough to make me stupid.) This thread makes me want to go back to New Orleans and the Acme Oyster House. Raw oysters, freshly split, and a little ketchup made white with horseradish...ahh. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> I am very fond of raw oysters and, IMHO, cooking them is a mistake. >>> Even sushi restaurants serve some cooked items. Shrimp is served [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >no reaction. It was fun, though. (And I'd only had a drink or two, not >enough to make me stupid.) Both women and men have "macho" pleasures, but let's get back to one of the party tricks we were talking about, that of eating a raw oyster. The appreciation of food involves the tongue, the eye and the nose. No one actually enjoys the taste, sight or smell of an oyster. Instead, some people eat them to show off, much as some people show off by pouring a pint of beer down their necks in record time or eating several jalapeño peppers without blinking the eye or wincing in pain. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland [...] > Both women and men have "macho" pleasures, but let's get back to one > of the party tricks we were talking about, that of eating a raw [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > pouring a pint of beer down their necks in record time or eating > several jalapeño peppers without blinking the eye or wincing in pain. They actually smell delightfully of the sea, and taste delightfully of, well, oysters. Like most things which are good to eat, their appearance is pleasant enough because of the association with taste and smell; but I agree they'd probably look repellent if I thought they tasted nasty. I chew them a bit. If I could afford it, I'd eat them every couple of weeks in season. Mussels are better, though. SignatureMike. Mike wrote on Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:31:03 -0000: > [...] >> Both women and men have "macho" pleasures, but let's get back [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> eating several jalapeño peppers without blinking the eye or >> wincing in pain. > They actually smell delightfully of the sea, and taste > delightfully of, well, oysters. Like most things which are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > them a bit. If I could afford it, I'd eat them every couple of > weeks in season. Mussels are better, though. "It was a brave man who first ate an oyster"- Jonathan Swift. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >[...] >> Both women and men have "macho" pleasures, but let's get back to one [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >chew them a bit. If I could afford it, I'd eat them every couple of >weeks in season. Mussels are better, though. Different kettles of fish. You don't eat raw mussels, do you? Unfortunately, mussels and oysters are shellfish, and now I'm no longer allowed to eat them. Pity, for moules mariniere is easy to make and utterly delicious. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England Chuck Riggs filted: >The appreciation of food involves the tongue, the eye and the nose. No >one actually enjoys the taste, sight or smell of an oyster. Instead, >some people eat them to show off, much as some people show off by >pouring a pint of beer down their necks in record time or eating >several jalapeño peppers without blinking the eye or wincing in pain. I eat jalapeño peppers even when I'm alone, so it can't be for purposes of showing off...are you aware that capsaicin has been shown to be somewhat addictive?...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >showing off...are you aware that capsaicin has been shown to be somewhat >addictive?...r I like jalapeño peppers very much, especially with cheese and crackers, but I don't pretend they aren't hot. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>Chuck Riggs filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I like jalapeño peppers very much, especially with cheese and >crackers, but I don't pretend they aren't hot. Oh, they're hot. But after becoming accusomed they are not so hot that one must feign macho by eating "several jalapeño peppers without blinking the eye or wincing in pain". I save that for habaneros. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>Chuck Riggs filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >without blinking the eye or wincing in pain". I save that for >habaneros. The Habanero Reel http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VlBJHTQlORk SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >The Habanero Reel > >http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VlBJHTQlORk They're wrong about the habanero being the hottest chili. That distinction goes to the much hotter naga. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoville_scale Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * [...]>> >> Oh, they're hot. But after becoming accusomed they are not so hot >> that one must feign macho by eating "several jalapeño peppers [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VlBJHTQlORk Isn't it funny how the various wind instruments cause particular facial expressions on their players? But what language was he singing in? SignatureMike. >[...]>> >>> Oh, they're hot. But after becoming accusomed they are not so hot [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Isn't it funny how the various wind instruments cause particular facial >expressions on their players? But what language was he singing in? This site suggests that the language is cunningly disguised English: http://www.cupofwonder.com/secrets.html#reel James >[...]>> >>> Oh, they're hot. But after becoming accusomed they are not so hot [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Isn't it funny how the various wind instruments cause particular facial >expressions on their players? But what language was he singing in? The secret language of birds innit. I suspect Ian Anderson's facial contortions come from a long career of live performance where he felt he had to be more mobile than the flute allows, so he tried things like the one-legged stance to ham it all up a bit. That and the fact that singing has become more difficult over the years. He nearly lost his voice at one point. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > showing off...are you aware that capsaicin has been shown to be somewhat > addictive?...r It takes care of muscle pain real quick, hate to think what it may do to the esophagus and stomach. >The appreciation of food involves the tongue, the eye and the nose. No >one actually enjoys the taste, sight or smell of an oyster. Instead, >some people eat them to show off, much as some people show off by >pouring a pint of beer down their necks in record time or eating >several jalapeño peppers without blinking the eye or wincing in pain. That doesn't account for people (like myself) who will munch a jalapeno in private. They're actually quite good, albeit rather mild for a chili pepper, although I admit it seems to be an acquired taste. After a while an eater becomes accustomed to the fire and finds it desirable. Chili peppers become a bit addictive, possibly due to the production of endorphins when eaten. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > > the wrote on Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:36:00 GMT: > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > observers the diner doesn't mind swallowing the ugliest and slimiest > of creatures? It is, if you will admit that many of your 'machos' are female, (about half, at first guess) Jan >>>>> Hatunen filted: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >cooked ourselves at a hot plate embedded in the table in the restaurant >table. I say "restaurant", but in Japanese terms it was a "caff". My work schedule didn't allow time to experiment with their food when I was in Japan, so I took the safe approach by sticking with Chinese restaurants. There is no shortage of excellent ones in the Tokyo area which made me wonder if many Japanese don't prefer Chinese cooking to their traditional fare. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland ... > normally eat, and we discovered a variety of delicious meals. I > particuarly liked Okonomiyaki > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okonomiyaki which we cooked ourselves at > a hot plate embedded in the table in the restaurant table. Was it served with brown sauce? SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > .... >> normally eat, and we discovered a variety of delicious meals. I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Was it served with brown sauce? There was some sort of sauce, I think. Also, dried tuna flakes, which the Japanese sprinkle on everything, as others do with ketchup. SignatureDavid >>> And then there's "natto", a sort of fermented soybean chutney....r >> >> <http://www.thesneeze.com/mt-archives/000169.php> > > Yep, that's the stuff. It is the single most disgusting substance > ever presented to me in the guise of food. Have you ever been to Sardinia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casu_marzu SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>>> And then there's "natto", a sort of fermented soybean chutney....r >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Have you ever been to Sardinia? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casu_marzu No, although I've eaten the fish. That stuff doesn't really look like anybody could consider it to be food. SignatureDavid > Hatunen filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > And then there's "natto", a sort of fermented soybean chutney....r Yuk, yuk, yuk, yuk, Natto is evil. It is the only thing I really couldn't have taken another mouthful of during my gastronomic experiments in Japan and that included raw dead tiny baby squid, raw sea urchin and smoked raw sea urchin eggs (gigantic things, they are). Mind, the locals were clearly amused that I'd tried some natto at all, and told me that many Japanese people don't like it. SignatureDavid >>That's why some style manuals recommend "Nato". > >That sort of thing always bothers me somewhat. There is no such >thing as Nato. There is NATO, which is (are?) the initials of the >North Atlantic Treaty Organization. According to my dictionary there is, and they are the same thing: NATO or Nato. n. acronym for North Atlantic Treaty Organization.... Of course some think it stands for North Atlantic Terrorist Organization, but that's a different question. The institution where I used to work was the University of South Africa, and whas U.N.I.S.A. for short, but later became UNISA, and is now Unisa. It used to give B.Sc. degress, but now, according to the calendar, they are BSc degrees. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> That's why some style manuals recommend "Nato". >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > It used to give B.Sc. degress, but now, according to the calendar, > they are BSc degrees. Not forgetting scuba and laser. SignatureRay UK musika filted: >>>> That's why some style manuals recommend "Nato". >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Not forgetting scuba and laser. Also "Ford" ("Found On Road Dead", or "Fix Or Repair Daily", according to various sources), "golf" ("Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden"), and of course "posh"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > "golf" ("Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden") I had never heard that until last summer when we took a boat trip into the Forth from near Edinburgh. The captain gave us a very interesting commentary throughout, including this absurd derivation. I meant to bring it back to AUE but forgot. SignatureDavid > musika filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > according to various sources), "golf" ("Gentlemen Only, Ladies > Forbidden"), and of course "posh"....r Since you mention cars: "GM," to some, means "God's Masterpiece." To others, though, it means "God's Mistake." SignatureMaria C. >> musika filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Since you mention cars: "GM," to some, means "God's Masterpiece." To > others, though, it means "God's Mistake." Not by any means restricted to North American cars. "Fiat": "Fix it again, Tony". "BMW": "Bayerischer Mist-Wagen" ("Bavarian dung cart" or various related translations). SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> musika filted: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Tony". "BMW": "Bayerischer Mist-Wagen" ("Bavarian dung cart" or various >related translations). Nor to only cars. The joke about the American TV system, NTSC is that it means Never Twice the Same Color. Except NTSC for broadcasting is about to go bye-bye in February. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >Nor to only cars. The joke about the American TV system, NTSC is >that it means Never Twice the Same Color. Except NTSC for >broadcasting is about to go bye-bye in February. The French TV system, SECAM is "System Essentially Contrary to the American Method", while the German PAL is "Perfection At Last". SignaturePeter Bennett, VE7CEI peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca >Nor to only cars. The joke about the American TV system, NTSC is >that it means Never Twice the Same Color. Except NTSC for >broadcasting is about to go bye-bye in February. So nwhat is replacing it? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>Nor to only cars. The joke about the American TV system, NTSC is >>that it means Never Twice the Same Color. Except NTSC for >>broadcasting is about to go bye-bye in February. > >So nwhat is replacing it? NTSC is an analog protocol. All TV broadcast stations are discontinuing analog broadcasting and switching to all-digital (HD) broadcasting on 17 February 2009, requiring new equipment at the transmitter and at the receiving end, not to mention changing all the channels. The channels now used for analog will go on the auction block for assorted telecoms services to bid on. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >>>Nor to only cars. The joke about the American TV system, NTSC is >>>that it means Never Twice the Same Color. Except NTSC for [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >all the channels. The channels now used for analog will go on the >auction block for assorted telecoms services to bid on. The new standard is abbreviated ATSC (with the A standing for "Advanced")...this should, in time, yield some new and amusing back-translations....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > NTSC is an analog protocol. All TV broadcast stations are > discontinuing analog broadcasting and switching to all-digital > (HD) broadcasting on 17 February 2009, requiring new equipment at > the transmitter and at the receiving end, not to mention changing > all the channels. No, no, no! Not High Definition. Digital Standard Definition is what is required currently. HD, while indeed a digital format, is something separate from this. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) Default User filted: >> NTSC is an analog protocol. All TV broadcast stations are >> discontinuing analog broadcasting and switching to all-digital [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >required currently. HD, while indeed a digital format, is something >separate from this. Someone needs to explain this to the folks at KNXV...their information page at http://www.abc15.com/content/dtv-transition/default.aspx is linked from the stations home page from a graphic labelled "HDTV Questions and Answers"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Default User filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > is linked from the stations home page from a graphic labelled "HDTV > Questions and Answers"....r The actual title of the page is: "Frequently asked Questions about watching High-Definition TV (HDTV) and Digital TV (DTV)" Someone did a sloppy job labeling the link. The FAQs themselves have a few instances of confusion as well. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> NTSC is an analog protocol. All TV broadcast stations are >> discontinuing analog broadcasting and switching to all-digital [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >required currently. HD, while indeed a digital format, is something >separate from this. What are you going on about? I never mentioned high-definition. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > "Default User" wrote: >>> NTSC is an analog protocol. All TV broadcast stations are >>> discontinuing analog broadcasting and switching to all-digital [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What are you going on about? I never mentioned high-definition. It's the "(HD)" at the beginning of your third line what done it. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> "Default User" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >It's the "(HD)" at the beginning of your third line what done it. Odd that I didn't see that when I looked up. Old age must be getting me. I should have said "DTV", but all the stations here are using "HD" so it gets kind of ingrained. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> NTSC is an analog protocol. All TV broadcast stations are >>> discontinuing analog broadcasting and switching to all-digital >>> (HD) broadcasting on 17 February 2009, requiring new equipment at ^^ >>No, no, no! Not High Definition. Digital Standard Definition is what is >>required currently. HD, while indeed a digital format, is something >>separate from this. > >What are you going on about? I never mentioned high-definition. Yes you did. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > >> NTSC is an analog protocol. All TV broadcast stations are > >> discontinuing analog broadcasting and switching to all-digital [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What are you going on about? I never mentioned high-definition. Yeah, you did. Reread your original message. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> >> NTSC is an analog protocol. All TV broadcast stations are >> >> discontinuing analog broadcasting and switching to all-digital [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Yeah, you did. Reread your original message. In my defene I'll point out that my statement "I never mentioned high-definition" wa technically correct. Ohterwise see my other oh-oh post. I seem to remember seeing a different meaning for "HDTV" a while back where the "HD" stood for two other words than "high" and "definition". Something and "digital" I seem to recall. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > >> What are you going on about? I never mentioned high-definition. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > high-definition" wa technically correct. Ohterwise see my other > oh-oh post. Sure. There's been a lot of confusion about the changeover and digital versus HD and all that. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) Hatunen filted: >In my defene I'll point out that my statement "I never mentioned >high-definition" wa technically correct. Ohterwise see my other [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >back where the "HD" stood for two other words than "high" and >"definition". Something and "digital" I seem to recall. "Hopelessly"?... Were you perhaps thinking of the "HD-DVD" format that appears to have lost the latest round of format wars to Blu-Ray?...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > I seem to remember seeing a different meaning for "HDTV" a while > back where the "HD" stood for two other words than "high" and > "definition". Something and "digital" I seem to recall. You may be thinking of HD Radio, where the HD stands for Hybrid Digital. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >You may be thinking of HD Radio, where the HD stands for Hybrid >Digital. I believe the official word from iBiquity now is that "HD" doesn't stand for anything. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >> I seem to remember seeing a different meaning for "HDTV" a while >> back where the "HD" stood for two other words than "high" and >> "definition". Something and "digital" I seem to recall. > >You may be thinking of HD Radio, where the HD stands for Hybrid >Digital. That could be. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >the transmitter and at the receiving end, not to mention changing >all the channels. No, not all the channels. Many stations' permanent DTV allotments are on their old analog channels, and will make the switch on February 17. (Or later if Congress decides to put its hands in again and makes a dog's breakfast out of the whole transition as they are now threatening to do.) >The channels now used for analog will go on the auction block for >assorted telecoms services to bid on. They have already been auctioned off. The revenue from the auction is what paid for the converter-box coupon program. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>> musika filted: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Tony". "BMW": "Bayerischer Mist-Wagen" ("Bavarian dung cart" or various > related translations). The North American TV standard NTSC, Never The Same Color. >>>> musika filted: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >The North American TV standard NTSC, Never The Same Color. Hmmmm.... Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >The North American TV standard NTSC, Never The Same Color. ...for another (gronk gronk) not quite six weeks. Then it will be the Canadian, Mexican, and Japanese TV standard.[1] -GAWollman [1] OK, OK, so LPTVs and cable systems still have a couple of years to go. SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > >> Since you mention cars: "GM," to some, means "God's Masterpiece." To > >> others, though, it means "God's Mistake." [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > The North American TV standard NTSC, Never The Same Color. People have posted long lists of these things on the Web. For example: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Backronyms Contents 1 Not originally acronyms 1.1 Automotive 1.2 Aviation 1.3 Computing and telecommunications 1.4 Commerce 1.5 Military and police 1.6 People SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Steve Hayes wrote, in part: > The institution where I used to work was the University of South > Africa, and whas U.N.I.S.A. for short, but later became UNISA, and is > now Unisa. > > It used to give B.Sc. degress, but now, according to the calendar, > they are BSc degrees. How does "University of South Africa" get reduced to "U.N.I.S.A" (later UNISA)? _UN_iversity _I_n _S_outh _A_frica? Is that the key? SignatureMaria C. >Steve Hayes wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >_UN_iversity _I_n _S_outh _A_frica? Is that the key? Surely it ought to be UniSA Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>Steve Hayes wrote, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Surely it ought to be UniSA UniSA is the university of South Australia: http://www.unisa.edu.au/ SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>Steve Hayes wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >UniSA is the university of South Australia: >http://www.unisa.edu.au/ So? Same "SA" initials. We have at least two universities in the USA referred to as OSU, as well as many others that get confusing. For instance there is a University of Miami in Florida, and a Miami University to which "of Ohio" has to be appended for unambiguity. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>Steve Hayes wrote, in part: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > a University of Miami in Florida, and a Miami University to which > "of Ohio" has to be appended for unambiguity. Then there are all those Notre dames, schools, colleges and unis. Hatunen filted: >We have at least two universities in the USA referred to as OSU, >as well as many others that get confusing. For instance there is >a University of Miami in Florida, and a Miami University to which >"of Ohio" has to be appended for unambiguity. Over in alt.obituaries, there was a muddle a few years ago when a newspaper article was posted about the death of former child actress J Madison Wright Morris...the headline read "RECEIVED HEART TRANSPLANT AT 15; MARRIED JULY 8 IN LONDON", the article was identified as from the "HERALD-LEADER" (with no additional geographic clarification), and that her husband was a "UK medical student".... UK turned out to be the University of Kentucky, and London was the Kentucky town of that name.... Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Over in alt.obituaries, there was a muddle a few years ago when a > newspaper article was posted about the death of former child actress [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > UK turned out to be the University of Kentucky, and London was the > Kentucky town of that name.... It's likely that local readers understood, and didn't even think of the United Kingdom, or London, England. Of course, readers of alt.obituaries (which sounds interesting, btw), would not likely be "locals." SignatureMaria C. Maria C. filted: >> Over in alt.obituaries, there was a muddle a few years ago when a >> newspaper article was posted about the death of former child actress [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >United Kingdom, or London, England. Of course, readers of alt.obituaries >(which sounds interesting, btw), would not likely be "locals." One was...he calls himself "Kentucky Wizard", and wanted to know why the rest of us were having problems with the report....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > >>>How does "University of South Africa" get reduced to "U.N.I.S.A" (later > >>>UNISA)? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > a University of Miami in Florida, and a Miami University to which > "of Ohio" has to be appended for unambiguity. There are two universities of York. Makes the post interesting, occasionally. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>> The institution where I used to work was the University of South >>>> Africa, and whas U.N.I.S.A. for short, but later became UNISA, and is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>> _UN_iversity _I_n _S_outh _A_frica? Is that the key? >> Surely it ought to be UniSA > UniSA is the university of South Australia: > http://www.unisa.edu.au/ I don't recall it being *called* that when I lived in Adelaide. I think it was simply "the Uni." Perce >Steve Hayes wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >_UN_iversity _I_n _S_outh _A_frica? Is that the key? Check previous threads about how "varsity" became "uni", at least in Australia and then the UK. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Maria > >> Steve Hayes wrote, in part: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Check previous threads about how "varsity" became "uni", at least in > Australia and then the UK. Okay, but "uni" is an abbreviation, like "Tom" for "Thomas." It's not a three-letter acronym or initialism -- just an abbreviation/shortening. Yet, it is apparently used in "UNISA" as if there are three words represented by "uni" (with SA added). Thus, as Hatunin said, it ought to be UniSA. (And pretty much the same goes for "U.N.I.S.A." "Uni" should not be U.N.I. -- the three letters do not stand for three words. "UOSA" would work.) (But custom is custom, of course.) SignatureMaria C. >> Maria > >>> Steve Hayes wrote, in part: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Yet, it is apparently used in "UNISA" as if there are three words >represented by "uni" (with SA added). And Unisa is pronounced you-NEE-sa, so if more than the first letter should be capitalised it would not be UniSA but UNIsa. But if you google "unisa" you will find both Unisa and UNISA, with about 1,720,000 hits. . SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >NATO or Nato. n. acronym for North Atlantic Treaty Organization.... This came to mind while I was watching a Russian TV programme, in English, about New Year celebrations and Father Frost. One of the people spoken to was a woman with the given name Nato. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > If you insist on e.g., why not insist on N.A.T.O.? Because NATO is an acronym and e.g. is not. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email Garrett Wollman wrote, following a reply to me: [...] > PS: When changing the subject, please use parentheses, not (square) > brackets. Balanced parentheses indicate comments in mail and news > headers; brackets have no particular meaning. I wasn't aware there were rules for the composition of Usenet newsgroup subject lines. Where does one find them? And how are they enforced? More to the point, who are the enforcers? Just wondering. SignatureMaria C. >I wasn't aware there were rules for the composition of Usenet newsgroup >subject lines. Where does one find them? And how are they enforced? More >to the point, who are the enforcers? The syntax of message/article header lines is defined in RFC 2822 (for mail) and whatever the successor to RFC 1036 is (I forget the number). Any search engine can find copies of these documents if you are curious. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >> Garrett Wollman wrote, in part: >>> PS: When changing the subject, please use parentheses, not (square) >>> brackets. Balanced parentheses indicate comments in mail and news >>> headers; brackets have no particular meaning. >> I wasn't aware there were rules for the composition of Usenet >> newsgroup subject lines. Where does one find them? And how are they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > number). Any search engine can find copies of these documents if you > are curious. I am curious about this matter. And RFC 1036 is indeed easy to find. Its successor is not, so here's all I could get (from 1036) regarding Subject lines: The "Subject" line (formerly "Title") tells what the message is about. It should be suggestive enough of the contents of the message to enable a reader to make a decision whether to read the message based on the subject alone. If the message is submitted in response to another message (e.g., is a follow-up) the default subject should begin with the four characters "Re:", and the "References" line is required. For follow-ups, the use of the "Summary" line is encouraged. Note the statement: '...the default [follow-up] subject should begin with the four characters "Re:",' I am assuming that the space following "Re: is the fourth "character." (Yes?) I read all of 1036. (Okay, I skimmed it -- but fairly thoroughly.) I saw no, nada, zilch references to parentheses or brackets in the Subject line. I assume that part is in the later RFC. I could search everything to do with RFC, but I'm not going to. Frankly, I don't think the issue is all that important. I also think that you'll have to try persuading someone other than me. (As you may have gathered, I'm not the least stubborn person you'll ever run into in AUE.) SignatureMaria C. >Note the statement: >'...the default [follow-up] subject should begin with the four >characters "Re:",' > >I am assuming that the space following "Re: is the fourth "character." >(Yes?) Yes. >I read all of 1036. (Okay, I skimmed it -- but fairly thoroughly.) I saw >no, nada, zilch references to parentheses or brackets in the Subject >line. I assume that part is in the later RFC. That part was in RFC 822, now superseded by RFC 2822 (which has itself apparently been superseded by RFC 5322). The comment syntax is defined by the following production in EBNF: comment = "(" *([FWS] ccontent) [FWS] ")" Technically, the syntax of the Subject header is "unstructured", which means that this rule doesn't apply, but some news user agents treat parentheticals in the subject header as comments (for example, when determining how much of a long subject line to show when previewing articles by subject or thread). -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > >> Garrett Wollman wrote, in part: > > >>> PS: When changing the subject, please use parentheses, not (square) > >>> brackets. Balanced parentheses indicate comments in mail and news > >>> headers; brackets have no particular meaning. [snip Maria's reasonable query and diligent research] Garrett, do brackets instead of parentheses actually cause you any practical problem? Do they cause your newsreader to put posts in a bad order, or anything? I remember that was the problem with some newsreaders, long, long ago. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >Garrett, do brackets instead of parentheses actually cause you any >practical problem? Do they cause your newsreader to put posts in a bad >order, or anything? No, it just makes the display messier. When squeezing long subject headings (and poster names, come to think of it), it will take the first and last "word" of the "non-comment" part of the header. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness Garrett wrote on Mon, 5 Jan 2009 04:42:19 +0000 (UTC): > PS: When changing the subject, please use parentheses, not > (square) brackets. Balanced parentheses indicate comments in > mail and news headers; brackets have no particular meaning. There seems to a transatlantic divide on the names of parentheses etc. The US distinctions among parentheses "( )", brackets "[ ]" and braces "{ }" don't seem consistently observed in British English. In fact, I grew up calling them "brackets", "square brackets" and "curly brackets". SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not James wrote to Garrett Wollman on Mon, 5 Jan 2009 08:17:13 -0500: >> PS: When changing the subject, please use parentheses, not >> (square) brackets. Balanced parentheses indicate comments in >> mail and news headers; brackets have no particular meaning. > There seems to a transatlantic divide on the names of > parentheses etc. The US distinctions among parentheses "( )", brackets > "[ ]" and braces "{ }" don't seem consistently > observed in British English. In fact, I grew up calling them > "brackets", "square brackets" and "curly brackets". -- I apologize for adding to my own post but I should have said "I grew up in Britain". There is even another use of the name "bracket" in the notation introduced by the British physicist Paul Dirac: the bra-ket mathematical notation. The Wikipedia article seems reliable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bra-ket_notation I will give the introduction: "Bra-ket notation is a standard notation for describing quantum states in the theory of quantum mechanics composed of angle brackets (chevrons) and vertical bars. It can also be used to denote abstract vectors and linear functionals in pure mathematics. It is so called because the inner product (or dot product) of two states is denoted by a bracket, <phi|psi>,, consisting of a left part, <phi|, called the bra, and a right part, |psi>, called the ket. The notation was invented by Paul Dirac, and is also known as Dirac notation." SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Garrett wrote on Mon, 5 Jan 2009 04:42:19 +0000 (UTC): > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >"{ }" don't seem consistently observed in British English. In fact, I >grew up calling them "brackets", "square brackets" and "curly brackets". In theoretical physics < and > are used extensively and are referred to as "bra" and "ket". Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>"Go [gone] missing" and "take a decision" are my least favorite phrases >>from the UK. (Btw, before reading this thread, I didn't know -- or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >practice British journos of writing acronyms like "NATO" with only the >first letter capitalized. That last two aren't the fault of journalists, who have no control over "house style", but of designers, whose view seems to be that it doesn't matter if it's comprehensible so long as in meets their own esoteric criteria for how things should look. The main sign of this noxious infection is a refusal to punctuate or capitalise. The Guardian (I think that should probably be the guardian) started it, but it is catching on all over the place. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>"Go [gone] missing" and "take a decision" are my least favorite phrases >>from the UK. (Btw, before reading this thread, I didn't know -- or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > practice British journos of writing acronyms like "NATO" with only the > first letter capitalized. I'm not sure I can come up with a transitive agree. I find the transitive "appeal"s and "protest"s (meaning to object to, rather than to proclaim) that are arriving in the opposite direction rather disconcerting. As I think I've said before, "eg" and "ie" have been British Civil Service standard for quite some time - I'll try and pin down how long sometime. At some stage an acronym becomes an ordinary word. At that stage you start spelling it in lower case. For example, laser. Nato is one of those - it just deserves an initial capital for being a name. I can't find anything to object to here. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >At some stage an acronym becomes an ordinary word. At that stage you >start spelling it in lower case. For example, laser. Nato is one of >those - it just deserves an initial capital for being a name. I can't >find anything to object to here. That logic is impeccable. However, it is easier for an acronym to be treated as an ordinary word if few people realise it is an acronym and even fewer know the words of which it is the initial letters. It is even easier if the word looks like an ordinary word, perhaps an agent noun. "Laser" meets those requirements. In fact it is so ordinary and "obviously" an agent noun that in less than two years after it was coined the back formation "to lase" was in use. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) [...] >> I think my pet hate from BrE is transitive "agree", but I don't >> think it's made it to this side of the Atlantic. [...] > I'm not sure I can come up with a transitive agree. [...] Google has almost 12,000 estimated hits for "agree the contract". Some are accidental, of course, but many of them are like "The Executive must agree the contract award strategy": look favourably on, accept. The usage may be influenced by the French use of "agréer", which is more often transitive than not, and has that transitive meaning. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > which is more often transitive than not, and has that transitive > meaning. You're absolutely right. That feels entirely normal to me. "We must agree the agenda for next week's meeting". SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > You're absolutely right. That feels entirely normal to me. "We must > agree the agenda for next week's meeting". I fully expect that that will be the next "in" phrase among Sales/Marketing types in the US. (The current normal usage is "agree on the agenda" or "agree as to the agenda" or even "decide about the agenda." ) If someone said to me "we must agree the agenda for next week's meeting" I'd be waiting for the rest of the sentence. (Perhaps the full sentence would be "we must agree the agenda for next week's meeting is going to include all the points we've just discussed.") SignatureMaria C. >> You're absolutely right. That feels entirely normal to me. "We must >> agree the agenda for next week's meeting". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the agenda" or "agree as to the agenda" or even "decide about the > agenda." ) My vote goes to "decide the agenda" or even "set the agenda", though the latter seems to fit better when a single person takes responsibility for the decision. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> You're absolutely right. That feels entirely normal to me. "We must >> agree the agenda for next week's meeting". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >would be "we must agree the agenda for next week's meeting is going to >include all the points we've just discussed.") The rest of the sentence, after "we must agree the agenda for next week's meeting", is "will include an agenda for setting agendas". SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> You're absolutely right. That feels entirely normal to me. "We must >>> agree the agenda for next week's meeting". [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The rest of the sentence, after "we must agree the agenda for next > week's meeting", is "will include an agenda for setting agendas". ...provided, that is, that we can muster a quorum for agenda setting. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >>"Go [gone] missing" and "take a decision" are my least favorite phrases > >>from the UK. (Btw, before reading this thread, I didn't know -- or [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I'm not sure I can come up with a transitive agree. Are we talking about "can you agree these changes so I can print the papers"? SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> >>"Go [gone] missing" and "take a decision" are my least favorite phrases >> >>from the UK. (Btw, before reading this thread, I didn't know -- or [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Are we talking about "can you agree these changes so I can print the >papers"? This is too much like the tag line on US political ads: "I approve this message". I can't stand it. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida tony wrote on Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:56:40 -0500: >> >>> "Go [gone] missing" and "take a decision" are my least >> >>> favorite phrases from the UK. (Btw, before reading this [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> Are we talking about "can you agree these changes so I can >> print the papers"? > This is too much like the tag line on US political ads: "I > approve this message". I can't stand it. In that sense, isn't "approve" not only very common usage but meaning perhaps "authorize"? "Approve of" could mean only a rather non-committal "agree with". SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > tony wrote: >>> Nick says... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > In that sense, isn't "approve" not only very common usage but meaning > perhaps "authorize"? I don't think so. An "of [whatever]" needs to tacked on to "approve." Also, the matter being "approved of" should be stated. However, a simple "I approve" is common. The "of [whatever something]" is from context. (That is: "I approve" would be the full sentence -- it can't be "I approve [this message]," which is not a common usage/idiom but only an unexplainable bit of foolishness used by puppets of all political parties. > ...."Approve of" could mean only a rather non-committal "agree with". Why non-commital? Do you see something wishy-washy about "approve of"? Anyway, "I approve this message" should be "I approve of this message." Why the "of" is left out so often these days is anyone's guess. I'm with Tony (and probably millions of Americans): I can't stand it. It's stupid and it makes the speaker look stupid -- as if he is just reading the words that someone put in front of him without giving those words a single thought. (Insert "she" and "her" as needed.) Maria C. >Anyway, "I approve this message" should be "I approve of this message." No, those two statements mean different things. "I approve[d] this message" means that the candidate personally reviewed the content of the advertisement and judged it to be the message he or she wanted to convey. (Or at least that's what it's supposed to mean.) "I approve of this message" is much weaker, and doesn't imply that the candidate had any involvement in the writing or production of the commercial. He or she hired the agency or consultant to make a commercial. The statement was introduced in the McCain-Feingold law. Previously, campaign commercials only had to identify that they were paid for by a candidate's committee and (for television) show a tiny, barely recognizable photo of the candidate. Senators McCain and Feingold felt that requiring the candidate to explicitly state their approval, in their own voice, would reduce the level of nastiness in campaign advertising. (Of course, all it did was force the candidates to use allegedly "independent" surrogate groups -- the 529s -- to deliver their nasty messages.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness Maria wrote on Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:19:24 -0500: >> tony wrote: >>>> Nick says... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> In that sense, isn't "approve" not only very common usage but >> meaning perhaps "authorize"? > I don't think so. An "of [whatever]" needs to tacked on to > "approve." Also, the matter being "approved of" should be > stated. > However, a simple "I approve" is common. The "of [whatever > something]" is from context. (That is: "I approve" would be the full > sentence -- it can't be "I approve [this message]," which > is not a common usage/idiom but only an unexplainable bit of > foolishness used by puppets of all political parties. >> ...."Approve of" could mean only a rather non-committal >> "agree with". > Why non-commital? Do you see something wishy-washy about > "approve of"? > Anyway, "I approve this message" should be "I approve of this > message." Why the "of" is left out so often these days is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > someone put in front of him without giving those words a single > thought. (Insert "she" and "her" as needed.) I think you will find, say, "My name is Joe Biden and I approve this message" to be very common. While "authorize" might be better, the transitive form of "approve" has become a synonym in the US. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >Maria wrote on Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:19:24 -0500: > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >message" to be very common. While "authorize" might be better, the >transitive form of "approve" has become a synonym in the US. In the strictest sense, wouldn't "authorize" tend to suggest that Joe Biden had commissioned the message (or at least suggested what it should contain), but had then got someone else to compose and write it? Effectively, JB is the "author" by proxy. Is the origin of the word? SignatureIan Ian wrote on Tue, 6 Jan 2009 17:49:02 +0000: >> James Silverton wrote: >> I think you will find, say, "My name is Joe Biden and I >> approve this message" to be very common. While "authorize" >> might be better, the transitive form of "approve" has become >> a synonym in the US. >In the strictest sense, wouldn't "authorize" tend to suggest that >Joe Biden had commissioned the message (or at least suggested >what it should contain), but had then got someone else to compose >and write it? >Effectively, JB is the "author" by proxy. Is there any practical difference in the political process? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >However, a simple "I approve" is common. The "of [whatever something]" >is from context. (That is: "I approve" would be the full sentence -- it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >words that someone put in front of him without giving those words a >single thought. (Insert "she" and "her" as needed.) In my version of BrE the two statements are quite different. I can approve of (or disapprove of) anything I choose, like the weather or US foreign policy or someone's choice of words. If I approve something, that is a formal process; I have some power to allow it to happen (or be published, or whatever), and I am exercising that power. It's more often something that (say) a committee does, rather than an individual, but it can be an individual. It would be common here to record in minutes that, say, the College Council approved a payment, and it would provide the legal justification for the payment being made (assuming the Council to have such powers). I can imagine cases in which we might approve of a payment but not approve it (because we didn't have the power, or didn't have the money), or where we would approve it despite not approving of it (because someone had promised something they shouldn't have promised, and we felt bound to honour the promise). It's a useful distinction, I think, but maybe it doesn't exist in AmE (or in MariaE)? Katy > >Anyway, "I approve this message" should be "I approve of this message." > >Why the "of" is left out so often these days is anyone's guess. I'm with [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > It's a useful distinction, I think, but maybe it doesn't exist in AmE (or in > MariaE)? It exists, but as I turn it over in my mind, it might be that the shorter "approve" form doesn't usually appear next to the object. "XYZ could happen if the boss approves" or "if my parents approve" or "if the public approves..." Then if the statement needs to be expanded, the "of" gets thrown in rather absent-mindedly. I think Maria is right in the sense that "to approve something" and "to approve of something" are getting merged together in the minds of the American public. But it's an older use she's seeing, not a new one. Where I would expect to find "approved it" is in legal and governmental circles (those who have the task of voting on the authorization of stuff). Google News has lines like: - if residents formed a committee, drew up such an ordinance and the town approved it, - President Abraham Lincoln signed the bill after Congress approved it. - Baca joined Fujioka ... in presenting the strategy to supervisors, who unanimously approved it after making several ... SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Donna Richoux wrote, in part: > Where I would expect to find "approved it" is in legal and > governmental circles (those who have the task of voting on the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > - Baca joined Fujioka ... in presenting the strategy to supervisors, > who unanimously approved it after making several ... Oddly enough, the above examples sound okay to me. Maybe it's because of the past tense. SignatureMaria C. > In my version of BrE the two statements are quite different. I can > approve of (or disapprove of) anything I choose, like the weather or [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > It's a useful distinction, I think, but maybe it doesn't exist in AmE > (or in MariaE)? It probably does exist in some AmE, but it's still wince-worthy (to me). Rather that use "approve [whatever]), I would use "endorse" or "ratify" -- the only alternatives I can think of right now. But neither alternative would quite fit in the usage we've been talking about: "I approve this message" being spoken by a candidate regarding an endorsement of him- or herself. So, I would use "I approve of this message," meaning "this message was prepared with my full approval." Another thought: "I vouch for the authenticity of this message" might work for me. It could well be acceptable in some parts of the US, or by generations younger (or older?) than mine. It could also be acceptable to people who are smarter (or the alternative?*) or less stubborn than I am. *Probably not. All I can say is that the transitive "approve" sounds wrong to me. SignatureMaria C. > It probably does exist in some AmE, but it's still wince-worthy (to me). > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > an endorsement of him- or herself. So, I would use "I approve of this > message," meaning "this message was prepared with my full approval." Those are all - slightly - different. "I approve of this message" - I like the sentiments. "I endorse this proposal" - it has my backing to go on the next stage, but I'm not of sufficient importance to make the final decision. "I ratify this decision" - you've already made the decision, and I'm going to implement it in the area over which I have jurisdiction. "I approve this action" - go and do it, on my say-so. I am fully authorised to command this to happen and it will be my neck on the block if things go wrong. > Another thought: "I vouch for the authenticity of this message" might > work for me. That means that I know that no-one has tampered with it. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >> It probably does exist in some AmE, but it's still wince-worthy (to >> me). [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > "I approve of this message" - I like the sentiments. I see it otherwise -- but context matters. That is, "I approve of this message" does not necessarily have the meaning of "I like the sentiments." > "I endorse this proposal" - it has my backing to go on the next stage, > but I'm not of sufficient importance to make the final decision. Hmm. Not the way I see it. Let's say the "proposal" is the political ad script. The candidate should certainly have the final say about that. Thus, I would think the person saying "I endorse this proposal" /is/ the one to make the final decision. > "I ratify this decision" - you've already made the decision, and I'm > going to implement it in the area over which I have jurisdiction. Okay. > "I approve this action" - go and do it, on my say-so. I am fully > authorised to command this to happen and it will be my neck on the > block if things go wrong. I'd want "I approve /of/ this action." Better: This action has my approval. >> Another thought: "I vouch for the authenticity of this message" might >> work for me. > > That means that I know that no-one has tampered with it. So? When we're talking political ads or political anything, tampering is a real concern, don't you think? -- Maria C. >> "I approve of this message" - I like the sentiments. > > I see it otherwise -- but context matters. That is, "I approve of this > message" does not necessarily have the meaning of "I like the > sentiments." [snip to bring together] >> "I approve this action" - go and do it, on my say-so. I am fully >> authorised to command this to happen and it will be my neck on the >> block if things go wrong. > > I'd want "I approve /of/ this action." Better: This action has my > approval. I think we've got - at least - a strong ideolectal difference, probably pondian. "Approve of" is, to me, only a matter of taste. Anyone can approve of the sentiments in a press release (we don't really do political adverts over here, so I'm not really comfortable talking about them), but only someone with authority in the chain of command can approve the issuing of them. Thinking more about it. In this sense it's pretty well identical to "authorise". >>> Another thought: "I vouch for the authenticity of this message" might >>> work for me. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So? When we're talking political ads or political anything, tampering > is a real concern, don't you think? Yes, but it's a completely different thing. Saying "I believe this five pound note isn't counterfeit" is very different from saying "go ahead and spend that five pounds". SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >I think we've got - at least - a strong ideolectal difference, probably >pondian. "Approve of" is, to me, only a matter of taste. Anyone can [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Thinking more about it. In this sense it's pretty well identical to >"authorise". One example is "approval" as formal authorisation is "type approval": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_approval Type approval is granted to a product that meets a minimum set of regulatory, technical and safety requirements. Generally, type approval is required before a product is allowed to be sold in a particular country, so the requirements for a given product will vary around the world. Compliance to type-approval requirements is often denoted by a marking on the back of the product. The familiar CE mark found on the back of many electronic devices, for example, means that the product has obtained type approval in the European Union. On the other hand, in China type approval is denoted by the CCC mark. It is important to note that type approval is not a term confined to a particular industry. Type-approval requirements exist for products as diverse as marine equipment, mobile phones or medical equipment. Type approval simply means that the product is guaranteed to meet certain requirements for its type, whatever that may be. In the US there is "FCC approval". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >One example is Incomplete editing. "is" -> "of". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>However, a simple "I approve" is common. The "of [whatever something]" >>is from context. (That is: "I approve" would be the full sentence -- it [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >It's a useful distinction, I think, but maybe it doesn't exist in AmE (or in >MariaE)? Dunno about Maria, but I understand what "I approve this message" means. While it's understandable, it's ugly. It's awkward. It sounds wrong. "I approved this message" means the same thing, but sounds better. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > tony wrote on Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:56:40 -0500: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >In that sense, isn't "approve" not only very common usage Yes, it's common usage, but people chewing with their mouths open is also common. Doesn't mean I like it. >but meaning >perhaps "authorize"? "Approve of" could mean only a rather non-committal >"agree with". "I approved this message" would do it for me. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > tony wrote on Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:56:40 -0500: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >perhaps "authorize"? "Approve of" could mean only a rather non-committal >"agree with". I reckon the irritating "I approve this message" is a shortcut for "I approve of the release of this message". How lazy can people get? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>In that sense, isn't "approve" not only very common usage but meaning >>perhaps "authorize"? "Approve of" could mean only a rather non-committal [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > approve of the release of this message". > How lazy can people get? It's used that way for what moderators and moderbots do with messages to moderated newsgroups and mailing lists. SignatureUnix is a user-friendly operating system. It's just very choosy about its friends. > > tony wrote on Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:56:40 -0500: > >>>> I'm not sure I can come up with a transitive agree. > >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > approve of the release of this message". > How lazy can people get? Well, according to the OED, the "confirmation, sanction" definition has been around since the early 15th century. So we're looking at over 600 years of what you appear to regard as laziness. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > This is too much like the tag line on US political ads: "I approve > this message". I can't stand it. I hear that as "I approved this message," which seems perfectly OK to me. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >> This is too much like the tag line on US political ads: "I approve >> this message". I can't stand it. > >I hear that as "I approved this message," which seems perfectly OK >to me. No one has expressed a problem with that version. The problematical expression is "I approve this message". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> This is too much like the tag line on US political ads: "I approve >>> this message". I can't stand it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >No one has expressed a problem with that version. The problematical >expression is "I approve this message". Why should it matter whether it's past tense of present tense? Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > >>> This is too much like the tag line on US political ads: "I approve > >>> this message". I can't stand it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Why should it matter whether it's past tense of present tense? "I approved this message" sounds fine to me while "I approve this message" grates. If I were in the candidate's office when he read the script and announced, "I approve this message," I would have no problem with it, but when he says the same words after the fact it sounds wrong. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email > "I approved this message" sounds fine to me while "I approve this > message" grates. If I were in the candidate's office when he read > the script and announced, "I approve this message," I would have no > problem with it, but when he says the same words after the fact it > sounds wrong. I think you've hit on the exact problem. SignatureMaria C. >> "I approved this message" sounds fine to me while "I approve this >> message" grates. If I were in the candidate's office when he read [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I think you've hit on the exact problem. They weren't after the fact when he said it. What you've got is a recording of that moment. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > >> "I approved this message" sounds fine to me while "I approve this > >> message" grates. If I were in the candidate's office when he read [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > They weren't after the fact when he said it. What you've got is a > recording of that moment. There's a scene in "West Wing" where a candidate records himself delivering the approval message over and over, until the team thinks there's a usable one (believable, clear, warm, authoritative...). I imagine that is a realistic portrayal of how it's done, and I agree that he's recording the fact that he did approve it -- he's not actually deciding and announcing his approval in that second. I find it *hard* to put a D between the V and the TH. I have to pause slightly between "approved" and "this". Maybe some candidates struggle also. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Donna Richoux filted: >I find it *hard* to put a D between the V and the TH. I have to pause >slightly between "approved" and "this". Maybe some candidates struggle >also. It's got to be especially hard for the ones who can't pronounce the eth: "I approved dis messidge"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > I find it *hard* to put a D between the V and the TH. Harder than putting a D in "hard to"? In my speech, in both cases, the D is clearly there, just imploded. Before TH, it becomes dental. ¬R > "I approved this message" sounds fine to me while "I approve this > message" grates. If I were in the candidate's office when he read > the script and announced, "I approve this message," I would have no > problem with it, but when he says the same words after the fact it > sounds wrong. All candidates say it that way, so I suspect that is not a coincidence. Likely that terminology was either mandated or agreed upon as the standard message. Would it be better if they said, "I hereby approve this message."? Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) > >> This is too much like the tag line on US political ads: "I approve > >> this message". I can't stand it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No one has expressed a problem with that version. The problematical > expression is "I approve this message". I haven't seen a script. When I hear the spoken words, the key word sounds to me like "approved". SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >> I'm not sure I can come up with a transitive agree. > >Are we talking about "can you agree these changes so I can print the >papers"? That looks really ugly. I would use "could" or "would", not "can", and "agree to". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >> I'm not sure I can come up with a transitive agree. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I would use "could" or "would", not "can", and "agree to". So would I, at the first time of asking. But when it's five minutes to deadline and I've been waiting for five days and getting no response, my language becomes a little less patient! SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > "Go missing/gone missing/went missing": this phrasing hints that the > missing person is missing of his or her own volition -- he or she > decided to go, and went. This may make sense sometimes -- people do > leave on their own -- but not all of the time. This may be historically unjustified if "gone missing" is in fact a WW2 RAF euphemism. We then had: gone west = known dead or presumed dead gone for a Burton = known or presumed dead gone missing = missing, probably dead, but not known dead. (Cf. the high casualties among bomber crews, seven men in the standard 4-engined heavy bomber. Few aircraft shot down at night were reported as casualties because no one saw them burn or explode. Until or unless proved destroyed the aircraft and crew was classified "missing." About one crewman in 10 parachuted and survived, and survivors' names were eventually reported to Britain by the Swiss Red Cross (which managed liaison between German PoW camps and the UK.) In other words, about a tenth of those who had gone missing eventually turned up alive.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> "Go missing/gone missing/went missing": this phrasing hints that the >> missing person is missing of his or her own volition -- he or she [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >In other words, about a tenth of those who had gone missing >eventually turned up alive.) Quite. The "gone" in "gone missing" means went out, but did not return. It has nothing to do with volition . They no doubt wanted to return in most cases (Rudolf Hess was an exception), but because their aircraft was damaged or destroyed they were unable to. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> "Go missing/gone missing/went missing": this phrasing hints that the >> missing person is missing of his or her own volition -- he or she [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a WW2 RAF euphemism. We then had: > gone west = known dead or presumed dead I've heard that. It reminds me of American frontier days (1800s-1900s, roughly). While it didn't always mean "presumed dead" to me, it did sometimes (most likely as I got older). "Went south," which some interpret as "presumed dead," was not a phrase I heard much until recently; I never assosiated it with death until I read that meaning in AUE. > gone for a Burton = known or presumed dead Who or what is "a Burton"? (My assumption is that that's a British phrase.) > gone missing = missing, probably dead, but not known dead. > (Cf. the high casualties among bomber crews, seven men in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > In other words, about a tenth of those who had gone missing > eventually turned up alive.) As you may have picked up from things I've said in the group, "gone missing" is a usage I really don't like. It offends my sense of grammar/language usage. It's not just because it's British (read "not originating in the US"); it's mainly because it's just /wrong/. (Yes, I know. Americans aren't perfect in that regard, either. We say many nonsensical-to-me-and-others things.) Note: There may be a percentage of American "gone-missings" ("gones-missing"?) that turn up alive, but I don't really know how many/few. We don't hear about some missing people at all -- just about the ones who attract nationwide news coverage for one reason or another. Children usually attract such coverage, though. What a world we live in, when children are prey. SignatureMaria C. >>> "Go missing/gone missing/went missing": this phrasing hints that the >>> missing person is missing of his or her own volition -- he or she [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Who or what is "a Burton"? (My assumption is that that's a British phrase.) Nobody knows. You can find a dozen different suggestions if you search for the phrase. I'd like to think it relates in some way to the popular tailors of that name which had shops in most British towns and where many young men would have bought their first suit from the first years of the 20th Century onwards. SignatureDavid >>>gone for a Burton = known or presumed dead >>Who or what is "a Burton"? (My assumption is that that's a British phrase.) >Nobody knows. You can find a dozen different suggestions if you search >for the phrase. I'd like to think it relates in some way to the popular >tailors of that name which had shops in most British towns and where >many young men would have bought their first suit from the first years >of the 20th Century onwards. I always believed it meant a bottle of Burton Ale which would be available in country pubs near where a Battle of Britain fighter pilot might be shot down "Where is John?" "Gone for a Burton" >>>> gone for a Burton = known or presumed dead > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > "Where is John?" > "Gone for a Burton" Hardly means "dead" though. You get buried in a suit, so my entirely unproved theory is that it means you're being fitted for a suit to be buried in. SignatureDavid >>>> "Go missing/gone missing/went missing": this phrasing hints that the >>>> missing person is missing of his or her own volition -- he or she [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >many young men would have bought their first suit from the first years >of the 20th Century onwards. There are various speculations. This one is perhaps as (un)reliable as any: http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/gswithenbank/sayingsg.htm Gone for a Burton - ruined, destroyed Generally agreed to have been RAF slang for 'dead' or 'missing', originating in World War II, and referring to Burton's beer. The simplest explanation is that to go for a Burton was, first of all, no more than to go for a drink, and that it was later used as an understatement when someone was killed or failed to return from a flying mission. The fact that many airmen crashed in the sea, known as 'the drink', may give this explanation added point. The current and more general meaning emerged later from this sense of loss. ...There was a postwar advertisement for Burton's beer showing a football team photograph with one player missing and a caption explaining that he had gone for a Burton. If this advertisement also appeared prewar, it was almost certainly the origin of the RAF usage that led to the modern meaning. If not, it was merely capitalising on what had by then become a well-known phrase, which is now used of things as well as people. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On 6 Jan, 14:41, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >>>> "Go missing/gone missing/went missing": this phrasing hints that the > >>>> missing person is missing of his or her own volition -- he or she [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > meaning. If not, it was merely capitalising on what had by then become a > well-known phrase, which is now used of things as well as people. This seems plausible to me: a hopeful suggestion that the deceased had "gone to a better place" and was enjoying a beer there. Compare the U.S. equivalent: "Bought the farm". Mike M In message <4eba2c42-4079-4e1e-837a-ef4eb50f1c89@z27g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Mike M <mikmooney@googlemail.com> writes >This seems plausible to me: a hopeful suggestion that the deceased had >"gone to a better place" and was enjoying a beer there. > >Compare the U.S. equivalent: "Bought the farm". > >Mike M Is that where the expression "Bought it" comes from? SignatureIan >In message ><4eba2c42-4079-4e1e-837a-ef4eb50f1c89@z27g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >Is that where the expression "Bought it" comes from? It may be the other way round. "Bought it" seems to be older than "Bought the farm". In his article on "to buy the farm" Michael Quinion says: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-buy1.htm .... This seems to be related to several older British slang sayings, like buy it or buy one (usually in the form Hes bought one!). These are known to be British fighter pilot slang from the time of the First World War for being wounded or killed, particularly for being shot down in combat. Both seem to be ironic references to something that one could not possibly want to buy. There was also the fuller phrase to buy a packet with the same sense (which is probably a combination of the RAF sayings with a British Army expression, to stop a packet, where the packet is a bullet, so meaning to be shot either wounded or killed). .... .... [Of "buy the farm"] However, others have suggested a more immediately relevant origin. Jack Burton wrote: I understand that this term dates back at least to World War II. Each member of the U.S. armed services was issued a life insurance policy in the amount of $10,000, a great deal of money in those days. Many of the troops were unmarried youngsters who named their parents as beneficiaries. Many of the parents were still living on a farm in those days, and most farms were mortgaged. If a youngster were killed, the $10,000 dollars would be used by the parents to pay off the mortgage. Anecdotal evidence from several subscribers suggests that the saying is in fact at least as old as World War II, and may even date back to World War I, so perhaps being more closely linked to the older forms I quoted earlier than the written evidence suggests. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >In message ><4eba2c42-4079-4e1e-837a-ef4eb50f1c89@z27g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >Is that where the expression "Bought it" comes from? Didn't that come from "bought the farm"? Or at least the field that he crashed in. In my university days recleless drivers were known as "agricultural maniacs" for their tendency to "go farming" - i.e. crash into fields. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > There are various speculations. This one is perhaps as (un)reliable as any: > http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/gswithenbank/sayingsg.htm [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > almost certainly the origin of the RAF usage that led to the modern > meaning. That's the Big If. Apparently no one can point to this ad/poster/ad campaign that has been speculated about. You'd think it would be in somebody's archives. It might turn up yet. (Time for "Balderdash & Piffle"?) It's such a lovely explanation, though. A poet footnoting in 1988 one of his wartime poems described "a wartime poster for Burton's Ales": "An empty seat at the table and the caption: 'Where's Joe?' Answer: 'He's gone for a Burton!' ( http://books.google.com/books?id=YHU3KNggBYIC&pg=PA113 ) That's told with such conviction, I can imagine that *I've* seen it. Like "Quick, Henry, the Flit!" a slogan I've heard but the ads for which I never saw. > If not, it was merely capitalising on what had by then become a > well-known phrase Exactly. And the images would falsely reinforce people's memories about the origin. > which is now used of things as well as people. SignatureBest - Donna Richoux >>>>> "Go missing/gone missing/went missing": this phrasing hints that the >>>>> missing person is missing of his or her own volition -- he or she [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > meaning. If not, it was merely capitalising on what had by then become a > well-known phrase, which is now used of things as well as people. According to the OED its origin is unknown. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >[...] >>> It [Marius's apparent coinage of noun "sanatory"] reminded me of the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Latin and earlier English, which applied to experienced troops still >serving--is beginning to take over in OurE. In the USA you can only apply for benefits from the Department of Veterans Affairs if you have left the military. I was receiving veterans benefits within a few years of my leaving the service. But "veteran" has also the meaning of one with longevity and experience, so a soldier might be a veteran soldier and a commander might be pelased that his unit is made up of veterans. There are also, of course, "veteran newscasters" and the like. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >>WIWAL, and later, didn't you get to be a "veteran" only many years or >>decades after the war in question was over? Like a "veteran car", you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Veterans Affairs if you have left the military. I was receiving >veterans benefits within a few years of my leaving the service. My father is a veteran of the US Marine Corps, and he was never in *any* war, his period of service falling entirely between the Korean and Vietnamese actions...I don't know what service, if any, his father took part in, but chronology would suggest that he was of prime recruitment age circa 1935.... I myself managed to miss Grenada by about three years....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" [...]> > I myself managed to miss Grenada by about three years....r On reflection, it's a wonder that the then Commander-in-Chief didn't miss Grenada by about three thousand miles. SignatureMike. >[...]> >> I myself managed to miss Grenada by about three years....r > >On reflection, it's a wonder that the then Commander-in-Chief didn't >miss Grenada by about three thousand miles. I was released from the Army in September 1963. I was an SP5-E5. They offered me SP6-E6 to stay in. I actually considered it but said no. Whew! Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote >>>"Down below" in the novel means in the valley, in the normal world, >>>away from the mountain where the sanatory is. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Presumably the "sanatorium". Perhaps "" is used as an abbreviation by >characters in the story. As in "'ave you seen the Daily Mirror, Mother? I'm just off out t'sanatory"? DC -- |
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