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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009What is a 'running metre'?
I saw an advertisement for glass, priced at so much a 'running metre' and wondered how this differed from a square metre. I'm surprised to see no definition for this on the internet and not even a reference to it in a google search of this group. Any suggestions as to the etymology and meaning? In message <3f3b206e-05b4-4379-a135-7a8aabfa7fb5@a12g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Peter Brooks <Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com> writes >I saw an advertisement for glass, priced at so much a 'running metre' >and wondered how this differed from a square metre. I'm surprised to >see no definition for this on the internet and not even a reference to >it in a google search of this group. > >Any suggestions as to the etymology and meaning? A quick Google reveals that it appears to be used in the textile industry. Presumably it refers to lengths run off from rolls of cloth. One of the links takes you here: http://www.centexbel.be/Fr/lexicon_frame.htm You will see that the French and the Germans have the same expression.  SignatureIan On Dec 27, 2:08 pm, Ian Jackson <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote: > In message > <3f3b206e-05b4-4379-a135-7a8aabfa7...@a12g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > One of the links takes you here:http://www.centexbel.be/Fr/lexicon_frame.htm > You will see that the French and the Germans have the same expression. Thank you - google must be working better in your part of the world! I suppose that, with glass, you'd have running metres with the float production system since you don't have rolls of glass as with fabric. In message <56e80c32-01b9-4389-8968-2384d45c9eda@s36g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, Peter Brooks <Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com> writes >On Dec 27, 2:08 pm, Ian Jackson ><ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >I suppose that, with glass, you'd have running metres with the float >production system since you don't have rolls of glass as with fabric. Yes, Google seems to work fine where I am. [As many say (especially those who can't be bothered to answer a query on a newsgroup, but want to appear clever), "Google is your friend". However, if everyone who wanted to know something immediately looked on Google, there would be very few actual discussions!] I know little about glass production, but I presume that one method consists of a semi-continuous extrusion, where lengths are sliced off as it emerges, and that's where the 'running' bit comes from. I probably need to Google to find out! SignatureIan > In message > <3f3b206e-05b4-4379-a135-7a8aabfa7fb5@a12g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > http://www.centexbel.be/Fr/lexicon_frame.htm > You will see that the French and the Germans have the same expression. As have the Belgians: 'lopende meter' (lit. 'walking meter') (The French are faster, they know how to run) Dutch doesn't have a 'lopende meter': the equivalent expression is 'strekkende meter' (lit. stretching meter) Perhaps derived from cloth merchants stretching the cloth along their measurung rod. Jan >Ian Jackson <ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Perhaps derived from cloth merchants >stretching the cloth along their measurung rod. Isn't a loper a Dutch carpet for a corridor or the like, which English might express as a runner? That is, a width of carpet material sufficient to walk along, and long enough to take the walker from one end to the other. And a run of something-or-other from a production line is consecutive output. It is clear enough that a running length is a longitudinal measure according to the needs of any particular trade. SignaturePaul > And a run of something-or-other from a production line is consecutive > output. Yes, the run on a bank comes to an end, with the bank itself often, because banks don't have such effective production lines. > It is clear enough that a running length is a longitudinal measure > according to the needs of any particular trade. That's certainly what a cursory consideration would lead you to think. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > >Ian Jackson <ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > sufficient to walk along, and long enough to take the walker from one > end to the other. Sure one of the many meanings of 'loper' is that red roll of carpet they put out to prevent so called VIPs from getting lost. It is also a chess piece, a passkey, and someone who walks or runs. Nevertheless, a 'lopende meter' is a Belgicism, Jan > Sure one of the many meanings of 'loper' is that red roll of carpet > they put out to prevent so called VIPs from getting lost. > It is also a chess piece, a passkey, and someone who walks or runs. > > Nevertheless, a 'lopende meter' is a Belgicism, Swedish has "löpmeter", and "löpare" can mean, in addition to "runner", a narrow piece of cloth to be put on a table. >> Sure one of the many meanings of 'loper' is that red roll of carpet >> they put out to prevent so called VIPs from getting lost. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Swedish has "löpmeter", and "löpare" can mean, in addition to "runner", > a narrow piece of cloth to be put on a table. Presumably a loping metre in English is more relaxed than a running metre. And an antelope is the strip of cloth they give you for free before they start actually measuring it. SignatureLes (BrE) Leslie Danks filted: >Lars Enderin wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >And an antelope is the strip of cloth they give you for free before they >start actually measuring it. In English, a 'loping meter is a device measuring the likelihood of your daughter getting married without your permission....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >> Sure one of the many meanings of 'loper' is that red roll of carpet >> they put out to prevent so called VIPs from getting lost. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Swedish has "löpmeter", and "löpare" can mean, in addition to "runner", > a narrow piece of cloth to be put on a table. A narrow piece of cloth to be put on a table can also be called a runner or, more specifically, a table runner, in English. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > > Sure one of the many meanings of 'loper' is that red roll of carpet > > they put out to prevent so called VIPs from getting lost. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Swedish has "löpmeter", and "löpare" can mean, in addition to "runner", > a narrow piece of cloth to be put on a table. On the dressoir, my dear, Jan <http://www.marktplaats.nl/index.php?url=http%3A//huis-inrichting.marktp laats.nl/stoffering-tapijten-en-kleden/212868337-dressoirloper-137-cm-la ng-en-37-5-cm-breed-excl-franje.html> [...] > Sure one of the many meanings of 'loper' is that red roll of carpet > they put out to prevent so called VIPs from getting lost. > It is also a chess piece, a passkey, and someone who walks or runs. The parallel word in German is Läufer, which also means a person who runs, a strip of carpet and the chess piece. The "Läufer" is allowed to move diagonally any number of squares in any (unobstructed) direction, which at least makes the choice of name logical. The same piece is a "bishop" in English, a "fou" (madman) in French, an "alfil" (bishop) in Spanish, an "alfieri" (standard bearer) in Italian and a "slon" (elephant) in Russian [1, 2]. I don't know whether these names allow conclusions to be be drawn about cultural differences. [...] [1] <http://www.eudesign.com/chessops/basics/cpr-lang.htm> [2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_piece> SignatureLes (BrE) ... > The parallel word in German is Läufer, which also means a person who runs, a > strip of carpet and the chess piece. The "Läufer" is allowed to move > diagonally any number of squares in any (unobstructed) direction, which at > least makes the choice of name logical. The same piece is a "bishop" in > English, a "fou" (madman) in French, an "alfil" (bishop) in Spanish, "Alfil" is a bishop only in chess. (The Spanish for the ecclesiastical meaning is /obispo/.) "Alfil" is from Arabic, ultimately from Persian /pil/, an elephant, according to the DRAE. > an "alfieri" (standard bearer) in Italian But unsurprisingly altered from Arabic "al-fil", according to http://www.etimo.it/?term=alfiere&find=Cerca which says that even French "fou" has the same origin. > and a "slon" (elephant) in > Russian [1, 2]. I don't know whether these names allow conclusions to be be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > [1] <http://www.eudesign.com/chessops/basics/cpr-lang.htm> > [2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_piece> -- Jerry Friedman >> The parallel word in German is Läufer, which also means a person who >> runs, a strip of carpet and the chess piece. The "Läufer" is allowed [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ecclesiastical meaning is /obispo/.) "Alfil" is from Arabic, > ultimately from Persian /pil/, an elephant, according to the DRAE. It just so happens that the Final Jeopardy question on the Jeopardy show was about which chess piece did the term "Springer" refer to in German. Two of the three contestants said it referred to the bishop. Leapin' bishops! The third contestant got it right (Knight) and won the contest. SignatureSkitt (AmE) kann Deutsch sprechen >>> The parallel word in German is Läufer, which also means a person who >>> runs, a strip of carpet and the chess piece. The "Läufer" is allowed [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the three contestants said it referred to the bishop. Leapin' bishops! > The third contestant got it right (Knight) and won the contest. A leaping bishop is known in fairy chess an "archbishop", saith Wikipedia (s.v. "fairy chess pieces"). SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. [...] >> The same piece is a >> "bishop" in English, a "fou" (madman) in French, an "alfil" (bishop) in [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > http://www.etimo.it/?term=alfiere&find=Cerca > which says that even French "fou" has the same origin. What a disappointment. I quite liked the idea of mad French bishops cavorting diagonally. C'est la vie. [...] SignatureLes (BrE) jerry_friedman@yahoo.com a écrit : [...] > "Alfil" is a bishop only in chess. (The Spanish for the > ecclesiastical meaning is /obispo/.) "Alfil" is from Arabic, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > http://www.etimo.it/?term=alfiere&find=Cerca > which says that even French "fou" has the same origin. [...] French dictionaries, such as the Dictionnaire historique de la langue française, or the Grand Robert, or the Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue française by Bloch and Wartburg, or the TLFi, http://www.cnrtl.fr/lexicographie/fou? are more cautious than their Italian counterpart. They merely point out that "alfin", variously written as "aufin", "auphin", "alphin", was replaced by "fol" or "fou", without any suggestion that "fol" is etymologically related to "aufin". They tentatively suggest that "fol" might have been chosen by analogy with the position that the "fou du roi" --the court jester-- held at the king's side. In a similar vein, what we now call "la tour" used to be "le roc", akin to the English rook, of Persian origin. SignatureIsabelle Cecchini >jerry_friedman@yahoo.com a écrit : >[...] [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >with the position that the "fou du roi" --the court jester-- held at >the king's side. It would be a neat trick to demonstrate that the minstrel's nonsense word fol-de-rol (folderol, falderal) was inspired by the court jester. But I can't go any further than to say that 'fou' and 'fol' are bedfellows, and the minstrel and jester may plausibly have been in eye contact when the original was coined. >In a similar vein, what we now call "la tour" used to be "le roc", akin >to the English rook, of Persian origin. Informally, the English chess rook is called 'castle'. The castling move is not called 'rooking'. Rooking exists but it is a particular species of cheating, and in another context. But none of that's news to most people likely to read this, I guess. SignaturePaul On Jan 3, 3:54 am, Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle.cecch...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote: > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com a écrit :> On Jan 1, 12:52 pm, Leslie Danks <leslie.da...@aon.at> wrote: > [...] [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > with the position that the "fou du roi" --the court jester-- held at the > king's side. ... Waste of a good etymology, I call it. If French had kept the final "l" of Spanish and Arabic "alfil", "fol" could much more easily have come from it. I wonder where the "n" in "alfin" came from. A spelling like "alphin" suggests that someone may have been thinking of "éléphant". Anyway, thanks for bringing some facts into this, and Leslie gets his madly slanting bishops back. -- Jerry Friedman > I saw an advertisement for glass, priced at so much a 'running metre' > and wondered how this differed from a square metre. I'm surprised to > see no definition for this on the internet and not even a reference to > it in a google search of this group. > > Any suggestions as to the etymology and meaning? Possibly a direct translation from the German "Laufmeter", which is used for materials sold by length, where the width and thickness are given - for example, buying so many metres (Laufmeter, abbreviated to lfm) from a roll of plastic sheet. SignatureLes (BrE) >> I saw an advertisement for glass, priced at so much a 'running metre' >> and wondered how this differed from a square metre. I'm surprised to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > for example, buying so many metres (Laufmeter, abbreviated to lfm) from a > roll of plastic sheet. For a least a while when the legislation about selling things in metric units came in, you could see fabric being sold in widths that were multiples of feet, but you had to buy by the metre. It was apparently illegal to buy a square piece! SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk Experimental version; http://canalplan.eu >>> I saw an advertisement for glass, priced at so much a 'running metre' >>> and wondered how this differed from a square metre. I'm surprised to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >multiples of feet, but you had to buy by the metre. It was apparently >illegal to buy a square piece! Wasn't it the same with lengths of wood? Of course, we also have (or had?) the peculiar situation where widths and thicknesses are less than the dimensions stated, on the grounds that these are the size of the rough wood, before it is planed. SignatureIan > >> I saw an advertisement for glass, priced at so much a 'running metre' > >> and wondered how this differed from a square metre. I'm surprised to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > multiples of feet, but you had to buy by the metre. It was apparently > illegal to buy a square piece! You didn't have do buy whole meters, Jan > I saw an advertisement for glass, priced at so much a 'running metre' > and wondered how this differed from a square metre. I'm surprised to > see no definition for this on the internet and not even a reference to > it in a google search of this group. > > Any suggestions as to the etymology and meaning? Bolts of cloth come in different widths, and you have to take that into account when choosing what to get, but you buy the cloth by length. A dress pattern envelope will tell you that if the cloth is 45" wide, you will need 3 yards to make the dress, but if it is 60" wide, you may need only 2 1/2 yards. Both the 3 and the 2 1/2 refer to the length of what you buy, and that's where the "running" comes in: same as "continuous" or "linear." The clerk flops the bolt over and over to unroll the cloth, and cuts the resulting length of fabric at the desired point. You're charged the price per yard times the number of (linear) yards bought. The wider cloth is going to cost more per yard than the narrower cloth. None of this has to do with square yards. Nobody calculates how many square yards of fabric are involved and charges per square yard. A two-dimensional product has been transformed into a one-dimensional transaction, through bolts of fixed sizes. Picture of bolts of fabric: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/160/376887186_3fab2e59c5.jpg I don't know anything about buying and selling glass, but from what you say, I imagine the same idea comes into play: you choose which width you want, and pay for that by the meter (of length). A price is set for each possible width, a price per (running) meter. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > I saw an advertisement for glass, priced at so much a 'running metre' > > and wondered how this differed from a square metre. I'm surprised to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > charged the price per yard times the number of (linear) yards bought. > The wider cloth is going to cost more per yard than the narrower cloth. Where did you find a shop where cloth is still sold by clerks? > None of this has to do with square yards. Nobody calculates how many > square yards of fabric are involved and charges per square yard. A > two-dimensional product has been transformed into a one-dimensional > transaction, through bolts of fixed sizes. IKEA nowadays sells cloth by weight. You flop and measure for yourself, and weigh the result. Jan [snip] > Where did you find a shop where cloth is still sold by clerks? I don't sew any more, like most people, and the fabric stores in this town have closed up shop. But once in a while I buy some nylon net here or in the US (I like it as a dishcloth) and it's still on bolts, and measured by a clerk who cuts it with scissors. > > None of this has to do with square yards. Nobody calculates how many > > square yards of fabric are involved and charges per square yard. A [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You flop and measure for yourself, > and weigh the result. Interesting. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >[snip] > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Interesting. The fabric shops in this area still sell by the yard (except for remnants). A store will have rows of bolts of cloth, the customer picks the bolt and brings it to the counter, and a clerk measures and cuts. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida On 28 Dec 2008, tony cooper wrote >> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > customer picks the bolt and brings it to the counter, and a > clerk measures and cuts. Same here -- someone cuts it for you -- except that it's sold by the metre; I think IKEA will be an exception. IME, it's hard to find anybody to assist you with anything at IKEA; they sell good stuff, but I've always found their customer service to be pretty sub-standard. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > [snip] > > > Where did you find a shop where cloth is still sold by clerks? > > I don't sew any more, like most people, and the fabric stores in this > town have closed up shop. As they have almost everywhere. You could try a 'lapjesmarkt' though. You won't see a clerk there though, just the owner, Jan >> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >As they have almost everywhere. There, perhaps, but not here. JoAnne's Fabrics has several stores in this area. http://www.joann.com/joann/store_locator/locator_main.jsp Also, there are several independent fabric stores in the area. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >I saw an advertisement for glass, priced at so much a 'running metre' >and wondered how this differed from a square metre. I'm surprised to >see no definition for this on the internet and not even a reference to >it in a google search of this group. > >Any suggestions as to the etymology and meaning? OED: running, ppl. a. IV. 16. a. Carried on or extending continuously. Used esp. of architectural or decorative ornament. Also with advs., as running-around. .... c. Of measurements: Linear. 1663 GERBIER Counsel 48 Work rated on running measure. 1703 R. NEVE City & C. Purchaser 121 Some Cornishes..are measur'd, and rated by the Foot Running-measure, i.e. by the number of Feet in length only. 1797 BILLINGSLEY Agric. Somerset 79 The expence of a list-wall may be thus calculated per rope of twenty feet running length. 1812 J. SMYTH Pract. of Customs (1821) 14 Linens particularly..are generally measured by running measure, being no more than taking the length of the piece from one end to the other. 1889 WELCH Text Bk. Naval Archit. iv. 73 It is usual to state the weight per square foot of material in the former case, and per running foot in the latter. Online Etymology Dictionary: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=run run (v.) the modern verb is a merger of two related O.E. words. The first is rinnan, irnan (strong, intransitive, pt. ran, pp. runnen), from P.Gmc. *renwanan (cf. M.Du. runnen, O.S., O.H.G., Goth. rinnan, Ger. rinnen "to flow, run"), from PIE base *ren- "to run." The sense of "cause to run" is from O.E. ærnan, earnan (weak, transitive, probably a metathesis of *rennan), from P.Gmc. *rannjanan, causative of the root *ren- "run." Of streams, etc., from c.1205; of machinery, from 1562. Meaning "to be in charge of" is first attested 1861, originally Amer.Eng. Meaning "to seek office in an election" is from 1826, Amer.Eng. Phrase run for it "take flight" is attested from 1642. Most figurative uses are from horseracing or hunting (cf to run (something) into the ground, 1836, Amer.Eng.), except (to feel) run down (1901) which is from clocks (in the lit. sense, 1761). To run across "meet" is attested from 1880. To run short "exhaust one's supply" is from 1752; to run out of in the same sense is from 1713. run (n.) "spell of running," c.1450 (earlier ren, c.1390), from run (v.). Sense of "small stream" first recorded 1581, mostly Northern Eng. dialect and Amer.Eng. Meaning "series or rush of demands on a bank, etc." is first recorded 1692. Baseball sense is from 1856. Meaning "single trip by a railroad train" is from 1857. Military aircraft sense is from 1916. Meaning "total number of copies printed" is from 1909. Meaning "tear in a knitted garment" is from 1922. Phrase a run for one's money is from 1874. Run-in "quarrel, confrontation" is from 1905. The OED etymology is longer and more detailed! SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >I saw an advertisement for glass, priced at so much a 'running metre' >and wondered how this differed from a square metre. I'm surprised to >see no definition for this on the internet and not even a reference to >it in a google search of this group. > >Any suggestions as to the etymology and meaning? A price for a "running (measurement)" is used with any item that comes in a pre-determined width. You are buying a length that is the width of the roll, and that is a running measurement. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 03:46:07 -0800 (PST), Peter Brooks > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > comes in a pre-determined width. You are buying a length that is the > width of the roll, and that is a running measurement. Yes, I see now, and it makes sense. I like the idea of transforming a 2-D measure into one dimension and I see, too, that it is the fixed width that is behind the idea, so it makes sense for glass as well as cloth. It also removes the ambiguity, or simply wrongness, of saying that you bought '2 metres' of something two, or three, dimensional since a 'running metre' is a two, or, presumably, in the case of glass, a three dimensional measure. Presumably people who buy glass a lot also know what the standard unstated dimensions are, so a quote of a price for a 'running metre' makes sense - since I don't know this, that is opaque to me, if you forgive the term in this context. In message <a0e1eb4e-787c-48b5-9e0b-da432b1fb1b0@e18g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>, Peter Brooks <Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com> writes >> On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 03:46:07 -0800 (PST), Peter Brooks >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >a price for a 'running metre' makes sense - since I don't know this, >that is opaque to me, if you forgive the term in this context. I still don't really see the need to add the "running". If I buy 10 metres of 1mm diameter wire, I know it is not 10 metres of 1cm diameter rope. If I buy 2 metres of 1 metre wide 4mm thick glass, I know it will not be 2 metres of 2 metre wide 6mm thick glass. However, I've thought of two possible explanations for "running". 1. Is there any implication that it means that the length might not be very accurate (like you might get if the length was measured when the material was moving). 2 (and maybe more likely). "Running" length will always be measured in the same direction. In the case of carpets, curtains etc, it could be a vital specification. It would be a very important to know that (for example) your length of patterned curtain has the pattern running in the correct direction. This way, you know that your order for 3 metres of 2 metre wide curtain material will be 3 metres cut from a 2 metre wide roll, and not 2 metres cut from a 3 metre wide roll. SignatureIan [...] > I still don't really see the need to add the "running". If I buy 10 > metres of 1mm diameter wire, I know it is not 10 metres of 1cm diameter > rope. If I buy 2 metres of 1 metre wide 4mm thick glass, I know it will > not be 2 metres of 2 metre wide 6mm thick glass. But you will be fairly certain that the 10 (or 2) metres are joined together -- I presume that's the implication. [...] SignatureLes (BrE) >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >[...] Ah! Yes! A continuous length. I think that gets my vote. SignatureIan >>[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> > Ah! Yes! A continuous length. I think that gets my vote. OTOH, having thought about it, we buy timber here by the "Laufmeter" even though it's cut to length. Would you allow the existence of virtual continuous lengths under certain circumstances? SignatureLes (BrE) >>>[...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >though it's cut to length. Would you allow the existence of virtual >continuous lengths under certain circumstances? Yebbut.... Presumably you do specify what the actual lengths of the cut timber are? I doubt if you would simply ask for 100 metres of timber (hoping for 50 lengths of 2 meters), and be happy when it arrived in the form of 1000 lengths of 10cm. On the other hand, if your intention was to cut each 2 metre length into 10cm lengths, you would probably be delighted. It would probably not concern you to much what lengths were actually delivered, provided that you actually received sufficient timber. SignatureIan >>>>[...] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Presumably you do specify what the actual lengths of the cut timber are? Indeed. My point was that "continuous" need not always mean "literally continuous". > I doubt if you would simply ask for 100 metres of timber (hoping for 50 > lengths of 2 meters), and be happy when it arrived in the form of 1000 > lengths of 10cm. Or even a single piece, 100 metres long... > On the other hand, if your intention was to cut each 2 > metre length into 10cm lengths, you would probably be delighted. It > would probably not concern you to much what lengths were actually > delivered, provided that you actually received sufficient timber. SignatureLes (BrE) Leslie Danks filted: >OTOH, having thought about it, we buy timber here by the "Laufmeter" even >though it's cut to length. Would you allow the existence of virtual >continuous lengths under certain circumstances? Sure...I sometimes hear reference works, bound runs of periodicals and such, described as requiring so many "running feet" of shelf...doesn't matter if your thirty feet of books fills six five-foot shelves or fifteen two-foot shelves....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Leslie Danks filted: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > thirty feet of books fills six five-foot shelves or fifteen two-foot > shelves....r Why do they bother with the "running"? It seems to me that "thirty feet" would work fine. -- Jerry Friedman >> Leslie Danks filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Why do they bother with the "running"? It seems to me that "thirty > feet" would work fine. "Thirty shelf feet" was the term of art when I was in the library circulation department biz. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: >In message <a0e1eb4e-787c-48b5-9e0b-da432b1fb1b0@e18g2000yqo.googlegrou >ps.com>, Peter Brooks <Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com> writes [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >of 2 metre wide curtain material will be 3 metres cut from a 2 metre >wide roll, and not 2 metres cut from a 3 metre wide roll. 3 In many trades people say "metres" when they mean "square metres" or "cubic metres". For instance builders routinely order metres of paving slabs or metres of concrete. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that in some quarters glass is priced by the "metre" meaning "square metre". Therefore the expression "running metre" (meaning "linear metre") avoids ambiguity. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: >>In message <a0e1eb4e-787c-48b5-9e0b-da432b1fb1b0@e18g2000yqo.googlegrou [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >Therefore the expression "running metre" (meaning "linear metre") avoids >ambiguity. Indeed, this is true. When electricians talk about wire ratings and sizes, I'm never sure whether they mean diameter (in millimetres) or area (in square millimetres). SignatureIan On Dec 27, 10:21 am, Ian Jackson <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote: > In message <xzXKukpoqlVJF...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>, Mike > Barnes <mikebar...@bluebottle.com> writes [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > sizes, I'm never sure whether they mean diameter (in millimetres) or > area (in square millimetres). You're lucky you don't have to deal with area in circular mils--and I'm delighted to find that I've forgotten the definition of this wretched unit. -- Jerry Friedman > On Dec 27, 10:21 am, Ian Jackson > <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> In message <xzXKukpoqlVJF...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>, Mike >> Barnes <mikebar...@bluebottle.com> writes [...] >>> 3 In many trades people say "metres" when they mean "square metres" >>> or "cubic metres". For instance builders routinely order metres of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I'm delighted to find that I've forgotten the definition of this > wretched unit. The running/square unit distinction above is the way craftsmen often talk, and "square" is often omitted informally for things which always come in square measures. "Running" has the further advantage of being an ordinary English word, while "linear" is, or was originally, a "learned" word which doesn't seem to have appeared before the 18C. And, re an earlier message in the thread, yes, you /do/ simply ask for, say, "100m of 50x25mm sawn treated", and they sell you the nearest above. (But they probably won't flicker if you ask for "A hundred metres of two be one".) You do check to see what length it comes in, of course, and specify which you want if there's a choice; but you do have to make an allowance for waste. SignatureMike. > I still don't really see the need to add the "running". ... It's just to make it explicit that you mean the linear unit and not, *as you might expect*, an area or volume unit. Note that the original poster's example was sheet glass, which you might expect to be sold by area. For example, we just had a new patio installed, and the paving stones were sold by the square foot. But when we decided to also use a line of the same stones as a border around the flowerbeds, we were quoted a price by the "linear foot". (This, rather than "running", is the form I usually encounter in such contexts.) If a similar practice was used with abbreviated units, the original poster might have seem a price quoted per m¹ rather than per m, to emphasize that it wasn't per m². SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "The walls have hearsay." msb@vex.net -- Fonseca & Carolino My text in this article is in the public domain. > If a similar practice was used with abbreviated units, the > original poster might have seem a price quoted per m¹ rather > than per m, to emphasize that it wasn't per m². No, I've never encountered that! I suppose that you might, on buying a section of shoreline, be quoted it in units of, say, m^1.52 to show that it is a fractal dimension, but I think that this is likely to be rather rare - it'd be handy, though, to know that, in this case your shore would be more similar to that in Norway than that in China (1.16). Perhaps barbed wire or hair extensions could be sold using fractal dimensions. Mark Brader: >> If a similar practice was used with abbreviated units, the >> original poster might have seem a price quoted per m¹ rather >> than per m, to emphasize that it wasn't per m². Peter Brooks: > No, I've never encountered that! No, that was a counterfactual "if", by way of explanation! SignatureMark Brader | "... you're a detective, you like mysteries." Toronto | "I hate mysteries. What I like are *solutions*." msb@vex.net | --Barbara Paul, "The Apostrophe Thief" > Mark Brader: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > No, that was a counterfactual "if", by way of explanation! OK. You also confirm that the 'linear foot' is deliberately tautologous. > OK. You also confirm that the 'linear foot' is deliberately > tautologous. Yes, and I also confirm that the "linear foot" is deliberately tautologous. SignatureMark Brader Safire's Rule on Who-Whom: Toronto "Whenever 'whom' sounds correct, recast the sentence." msb@vex.net -- William Safire, NY Times Magazine > > OK. You also confirm that the 'linear foot' is deliberately > > tautologous. > > Yes, and I also confirm that the "linear foot" is deliberately > tautologous. We're going round in circles, I think, I was not asking, but stating that you had already confirmed that - in your other post! Peter Brooks: >>> OK. You also confirm that the 'linear foot' is deliberately >>> tautologous. Mark Brader: >> Yes, and I also confirm that the "linear foot" is deliberately >> tautologous. Peter Brooks: > We're going round in circles, I think, I was not asking, but stating > that you had already confirmed that - in your other post! Yes, and you were stating that I had already confirmed that. SignatureMark Brader "This is... a film... almost without explosions." Toronto, msb@vex.net --Mark Leeper > Peter Brooks: >>>> OK. You also confirm that the 'linear foot' is deliberately >>>> tautologous. > Mark Brader: >>> Yes, and I also confirm that the "linear foot" is deliberately >>> tautologous. > Peter Brooks: >> We're going round in circles, I think, I was not asking, but >> stating that you had already confirmed that - in your other post! > Mark Brader: > Yes, and you were stating that I had already confirmed that. Things are getting kinda taut around here. > > Peter Brooks: > >>>> OK. You also confirm that the 'linear foot' is deliberately [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Things are getting kinda taut around here. More repetitive than taut, I think. After all, it looks rather like too much, rather than too little, agreement... >On Dec 29, 12:30 am, "CDB" <bellema...@sympatico.ca> wrote: >> > Peter Brooks: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >More repetitive than taut, I think. After all, it looks rather like >too much, rather than too little, agreement... I think the point was a logical one. SignaturePaul > >> > Peter Brooks: > >> >>>> OK. You also confirm that the 'linear foot' is deliberately [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I think the point was a logical one. We're off again; is mere repetition taut? Peter Brooks: > I saw an advertisement for glass, priced at so much a 'running metre' > and wondered how this differed from a square metre. I'm surprised to > see no definition for this on the internet ... You didn't look at Russ Rowlett's site. # running foot # another name for a linear foot. Terms such as running meter and # running yard are used similarly. SignatureMark Brader | "The problem with waiting for a 'smoking gun' is Toronto | that it means the gun has already been fired." msb@vex.net | --Michael Chance > Peter Brooks: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > # another name for a linear foot. Terms such as running meter and > # running yard are used similarly. I wouldn't have found that as I know a 'running meter' is something you find in a taxi or outside your house measuring the electricity, water or gas. Linear foot sounds very peculiar to me as a foot is normally a unit of linear measurement - you'd need to specify a curved foot to show it wasn't the usual sort of straight one and, though I now see the 'running' usage as making sense, I don't see how 'linear' makes sense in this context. I'd agree that it might make sense to talk of a linear megametre to distinguish it from one measured 'as the crow flies' along a great circle but I think that would be a rare usage indeed, probably restricted to people who produce navigation equipment.... > Linear foot sounds very peculiar to me as a foot is normally a unit of > linear measurement ... As explained elsewhere in the thread, it's a form of emphasis. "Feet, and we really did mean the linear unit". SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Sex on trains, of course." msb@vex.net -- Clive Feather |
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