More units of measure: acres
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Mark Brader - 27 Dec 2008 20:45 GMT As everyone knows,
1 yard = 3 feet 1 rod[A] = 5.5 yards = 16.5 feet 1 chain[B,C] = 4 rods = 22 yards = 66 feet 1 furlong = 10 chains = 40 rods = 220 yards = 660 feet 1 mile = 8 furlongs = 80 chains = 320 rods = 1760 yards = 5280 feet
1 acre = 1/640 mile² = 1/10 furlong² = 10 chain² = 4840 yd² = 43560 ft²
[A] Also called a pole or perch [B] Also equal to 100 links. [C] This is also called Gunter's chain. Another unit called a chain is equal to 100 feet, but that's not important now.
So a field that is 1 chain wide by 1 furlong long has an area of 1 acre. Remembering that the "fur" in "furlong" is a furrow, it should be clear that this is the origin of this unit.
However, I recently came across a couple of older passages (details below), where "acre" seemed to be being used as a unit of length. I looked at Russ Rowlett's web site and there was nothing about it there. I then looked at the OED, where the word "acre" was included in the very first fascicle to be published:
# 3. As a lineal measure: an "acre length", 40 poles or a furlong # (i.e. furrow-length); an "acre breadth", 4 poles or 22 yards. # Obs. or dial.
In other words, by this usage, which was already obsolete (or dialect) in 1884 when this entry was written, an acre (of) breadth is a chain, and an acre (of) length is a furlong. The last cite in the OED is from 1809.
But that was not consistent with the way I had just seen them used. While the exact meaning is unclear (and I'll go into the possibilities in detail below), it is clear that the unit in question is somewhere around 3 or 4 chains.
My source was letters quoted in the 3-volume work "Men and Meridians: The History of Surveying and Mapping in Canada", written by Don W. Thompson and published in 1966-69 by the Canadian government's Department of Energy, Mines and Resources.
The first passage, on page 199, is from a letter written by Miles Macdonell, first governor of the Red River colony, to Lord Selkirk, who sponsored the colony, apparently on 1813-07-17 (in one place the book gives the date as 1883, but this makes no sense and must be a typo; the book contains an annoyingly large number of things that "must be typos"). Ellipses and square brackets as in the book.
| ...I have since laid out lots of 100 acres, of 4 acres front | on the river, according to the annexed rough sketch... | The farms of Lower Canada are only 3 acres front, and the | first settlers in Upper Canada had only the same, but they | found it afterwards too narrow, which induced me to add one | acre additional to the breadth of our lots here. This [is] | sufficient for any farmer... (The Red River colony, Lower Canada, and Upper Canada correspond respectively to the first-colonized parts of today's Manitoba, Quebec, and Ontario.)
Okay, what does that mean? When these parts of Canada were surveyed into lots for settlers, they were elongated rectangular lots (rather than the square lots used in western Canada and much of the US) -- but not as elongated as 4 x 250 chains, which is what it would mean if "4 acres front" was the "4 acres breadth" of the OED entry.
Could the letter be using the concept that an "acre" in this context represents a rectangle of a specific shape as well as a specific size? I have never heard of such a thing.
The corresponding French unit for area at this time was the arpent, and according to context this name was also used for a linear unit. Linearly it was equal to 191.838 feet or 2.90664 chains; as an area unit it was the square of this, or 0.84485 acre. Is it possible that this in Canada this notion was copied back into British units and an "acre" of linear measure meant the *side of a square* whose area was 1 acre? This seems even less likely to me, as it would not fit conveniently with *any* other units -- this "acre" would be equal to sqrt(10) = 3.162278 chains or 208.7103 feet or 208 feet 8.5+ inches.
Unfortunately, the "annexed rough sketch" is not reproduced in the book. Immediately after quoting the letter, the book goes on:
| Lord Selkirk advocated a more compact type of settlement | but this was never established, the river-lot system | prevailing. Thus more than a thousand miles from the | St. Lawrence Basin, history repeated itself. Talon and | Colbert had suffered a similar reverse in New France of | the 17th century. By 1870 river lots extended for more | than 40 miles along the Red, and along the Assiniboine | as far as Portage la Prairie. Most of the lots were laid | out with a 12-chain river frontage but there were later | variations all the way from 1 chain to a half-mile in width. The business about "river lots" and the St. Lawrence Basin is that when the French owned the colony (under the name Nouvelle France or New France), they generally surveyed the land there along each river into long narrow lots with one end on the river, so that everyone would be able to use it.
Elsewhere the book says in reference to New France that "the average farm had a frontage of three or more arpents and by [sic] a depth of thirty or more arpents, but here again there were variations". Could Macdonnell be thinking of an arpent as a French acre and using "3 acres front" loosely to mean 3 arpents? This seems unlikely in a context calling for precision; I'm sure he wouldn't be using French units for new surveying, as with the "4 acres front".
Then on page 221 of the book is another letter with a similar usage, but with interesting detail in addition. This one is dated 1783-09-11 and was written by Sir Frederick Haldimand, Governor of Quebec, to his deputy surveyor general, John Collins. ("Quebec" at that time was the same area that in 1813 was Upper and Lower Canada.)
| 4. The method of laying out townships of six miles square | I consider as the best to be followed, as the people to | be settled there are most used to it, and will best answer | the proportion of lands I propose to grant to each family, | viz: 120 acres, of which six are to be in front, which will | make 19 chains in front and 63 chains 25 links in depth, so | that every township will have 25 lots in front and 4 chains | 75 links will remain for roads, with 7 concessions in depth. | Fifty-eight links will remain for a road, by which distribution | each township will contain 175 lots of 120 acres. (A "concession" is a row of adjacent elongated rectangular lots with their short ends along a common pair of parallel lines.)
Note the "of which six". This really makes it sound as though he's thinking of an acre as having a specific shape, rather than referring to acres of area and then, in the same sentence, acres of length. But he might still really be intending the latter.
It would help if the numbers fitted together, but I can't make them do so. Maybe some of them are supposed to be approximate, but he doesn't hint as to which ones. He's talking about taking a 6-mile square township and dividing it into a 7x25 grid of rectangular lots plus road allowances. If each lot is exactly 19 x 63.25 chains, that makes it really 120.175 acres. An exact 120 acres with 19 chains front would be only 63.16 chains long.
The other thing that isn't clear is the layout of those roads that there are allowances for. As there is no diagram of this layout, all I have to go by is Southern Ontario, which also used townships and concessions but not so regularly shaped. One common pattern had lots of 20 x 100 chains (thus 200 acres) with roads every 100 chains, forming a square grid with 5 lots in each square. But that pattern doesn't exactly translate to lots of 19 x 63.25 chains.
Haldimand's mention of two different numbers, 4.75 and 0.58 chains, for road allowances suggest to me that there was allowance for a grid of roads, north-south and east-west, but with different spacing. But 19 x 25 is 475 chains, and 63.25 x 7 is 442.75; the difference between these numbers and 6 miles (480 chains) is respectively 5.00 and 37.25 chains, nothing like the numbers actually mentioned.
Anyway, if we assume that 19 chains is exact, and if "acre in the front" is meant as a linear unit, then that unit must equal 19/6 chains or exactly 209 feet. This is quite close to the sqrt(10) value given above.
The result is that I'm still puzzled, and I wonder if Evan or anyone can turn up another source that might clarify what exactly these guys were talking about.
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Robert Bannister - 27 Dec 2008 22:48 GMT > So a field that is 1 chain wide by 1 furlong long has an area of > 1 acre. Remembering that the "fur" in "furlong" is a furrow, it [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > # (i.e. furrow-length); an "acre breadth", 4 poles or 22 yards. > # Obs. or dial.
> Could the letter be using the concept that an "acre" in this context > represents a rectangle of a specific shape as well as a specific > size? I have never heard of such a thing. Nor me. [snip]
> The corresponding French unit for area at this time was the arpent, > and according to context this name was also used for a linear unit. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > fit conveniently with *any* other units -- this "acre" would be equal > to sqrt(10) = 3.162278 chains or 208.7103 feet or 208 feet 8.5+ inches. [snip]
> The result is that I'm still puzzled, and I wonder if Evan or anyone > can turn up another source that might clarify what exactly these guys > were talking about. The word "acre" is almost certainly connected with the German word "Acker" which means arable field. Fields and measurements were variable in size for a very long time, so even though the "standard" villein's strip in medieval times was a furrow by a chain, this was likely to vary by region. German farmers measured their land in "Morgen" (perhaps the amount of land they could plough in a morning) and this had different regional sizes until quite recently. The French "arpent" also had regional variations.
I think you idea that they imagined the acre as a "standard" rectangular block makes sense, but don't expect the shape or even the size of the acre to the same in every place. Measurements were certainly not standard at the time North America was settled - this is one reason why US and Imperial measurements are different - I'm not sure when official standards came into being, but I'd have guessed the early 1800s.
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Rob Bannister
Garrett Wollman - 28 Dec 2008 00:18 GMT >Measurements were certainly not standard at the time North America >was settled - this is one reason why US and Imperial measurements are >different - I'm not sure when official standards came into being, but >I'd have guessed the early 1800s. At least a century earlier, actually.
Imperial measure was a wholesale replacement of the existing (still used in the United States) standards, and was introduced in 1824. The (now U.S.) dry gallon was defined by Parliament in 1696; the U.S. fluid gallon was standardized in 1707. The statute mile was defined in 1592. (All per Russ Rowlett.)
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J. J. Lodder - 01 Jan 2009 14:22 GMT > The word "acre" is almost certainly connected with the German word > "Acker" which means arable field. Fields and measurements were variable [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > regional sizes until quite recently. The French "arpent" also had > regional variations. The 'morgen' is not specifically German, also Dutch. It is still present in placenames like '110 morgen polder' obviously a 'polder' with a size of '110 morgen',
Jan
Prai Jei - 27 Dec 2008 23:21 GMT Mark Brader set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum:
> Could the letter be using the concept that an "acre" in this context > represents a rectangle of a specific shape as well as a specific > size? I have never heard of such a thing. Yes - this is the original acre, 1 furlong x 1 chain giving a rectangle with a 10:1 aspect ratio. It was the area that could be expected to be ploughed in one working day with a horse-drawn plough, and it would have this shape because the "furrow-long" would indeed be the length of a furrow.
An "acre length" is therefore the same as a furlong, though I've never heard it called such. Similarly an acre breadth would be the same as a chain.
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Mark Brader - 28 Dec 2008 01:16 GMT > > Could the letter be using the concept that an "acre" in this context > > represents a rectangle of a specific shape as well as a specific > > size? I have never heard of such a thing.
> Yes - this is the original acre, 1 furlong x 1 chain giving a rectangle with > a 10:1 aspect ratio. ... > An "acre length" is therefore the same as a furlong, though I've never heard > it called such. Similarly an acre breadth would be the same as a chain. I know it was a long message, but it would be helpful to read *all* of it before responding.
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Paul Wolff - 27 Dec 2008 23:22 GMT >As everyone knows, > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >in detail below), it is clear that the unit in question is somewhere >around 3 or 4 chains. I haven't an answer but some comment, and I'll put it all in one place, for ease of reading.
That the acre is one chain by one furrow's length is old stuff. My comment is that long narrow plots are very old, and not only for fields, but also for town development plots. Medieval English town planning allocated strips of land with narrow road frontages and long dimensions away from the highway, so that a township might be formed yet the tenants still have enough land. There may be useful information to be picked up by following the conventions applied to these burgage plots.
Here's an extract of the kind of thing available:
Grenville [1] defines a burgage plot as a long narrow plot of land running at right angles from the street frontage in a town (p198) . She reports on p161 that there is archaeological evidence from excavations in Chester of the existence of such plots in the 12th and 13th centuries but not the 10th, while some plots in Coppergate at York and at Worcester were laid out in the 10th century. Post conquest town charters specified the dimensions of burgage plots as 3 or 3.5 perches (16 or 18 metres) by 12 perches (60 metres) which amounts to about one quarter of an acre and until the 13th century, at least, this was the primary unit of rentable property though subdivision of these units for subletting was becoming commonplace. The capacity to build parallel to the road in a town indicated access to an undivided burgage plot or perhaps acquisition of more than one ([1] p165).
The Bishop of Salisbury in 1225 laid out the new town of Salisbury with uniform burgage plots of size 3 perches by 7 perches whereas at Sherborne in Dorset three burgage plot sizes were used in 1227-28:
4 by 20 perches, 4 by 24 perches and 2 by 4 perches, according to the size of tenement, from Hoskins [14] p90.
<http://www.northcravenhistoricalresearch.co.uk/Outreach/burgagefinds.doc
4 perches are a chain; 4 by 20 perches are half an acre.
It could be an accepted convention, not needing to be spelled out, that these areas were defined by shape as well as by the product length x width.
If I do some sums based on Haldimand I get the same results concerning plot dimensions and what is left for the roads. I guess this isn't very helpful.
>My source was letters quoted in the 3-volume work "Men and Meridians: >The History of Surveying and Mapping in Canada", written by Don [quoted text clipped - 123 lines] >can turn up another source that might clarify what exactly these guys >were talking about.
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Mark Brader - 28 Dec 2008 01:26 GMT > My comment is that long narrow plots are very old, and not only for > fields, but also for town development plots. My house is built on one, although it's in a subdivision that dates only to the 1920s. In fact, it's just occurred to me that if I express the dimensions of the lot in chains I get some interesting numbers. The width is just a few inches under 1/3 chain, and while the lot is not perfectly rectangular, a length of 2½ chains would fall in between that of the long edge and of the edge opposite. (The area of the lot, therefore, is almost exactly 1/12 of an acre.)
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Robin Bignall - 28 Dec 2008 22:12 GMT >My >comment is that long narrow plots are very old, and not only for fields, >but also for town development plots. That was true at least up to the 1960s, and possibly even today, for "greenfield" sites, where the architect has virgin territory at his finger tips. But for "brownfield" sites, or those places where an old house with a large garden has been developed, the idea seems to be to cram as many dwelling units on it as possible, with parking spaces and little if any space for a garden.
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 29 Dec 2008 05:02 GMT > As everyone knows, ...
Heh heh.
> | 4. The method of laying out townships of six miles square > | I consider as the best to be followed, as the people to [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to acres of area and then, in the same sentence, acres of length. > But he might still really be intending the latter. ...
Without context, if I saw "120 acres, of which six are to be in front", I'd take it to mean that the acres are squares and the plots are six sides-of-a-square by twenty. I'm not saying I've ever seen such a system, or indeed that I've ever known anything about land division except how many 40-acres-and-a-mule there are in a square mile. But that's what I'd expect it to mean, irrational as it may seem.
> Anyway, if we assume that 19 chains is exact, and if "acre in the front" > is meant as a linear unit, then that unit must equal 19/6 chains or > exactly 209 feet. This is quite close to the sqrt(10) value given above. ...
Like that.
-- Jerry Friedman
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 29 Dec 2008 05:33 GMT ...
> Anyway, if we assume that 19 chains is exact, and if "acre in the front" > is meant as a linear unit, then that unit must equal 19/6 chains or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > can turn up another source that might clarify what exactly these guys > were talking about. A search of Google Books for "acres wide" will turn up a lot of hits in which "acre" is a linear unit, and "acres long" probably will too. By digging into them, you might be able to tell in some cases what the unit equaled or equals. This one,
http://books.google.com/books?id=y1KekDaaKKAC&pg=PA137
with your friend Haldimand, looks very promising: lots four or six or ten square acres wide, extending seven miles back from the Detroit River. I'd take that to mean that the acres are in the shape of squares and the lots are four etc. squares wide.
-- Jerry Friedman
Mark Brader - 23 Jan 2009 20:12 GMT Last month, I (Mark Brader) asked:
> > Anyway, if we assume that 19 chains is exact, and if "acre in the front" > > is meant as a linear unit, then that unit must equal 19/6 chains or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > can turn up another source that might clarify what exactly these guys > > were talking about. Jerry Friedman tried:
> A search of Google Books for "acres wide" will turn up a lot of hits > in which "acre" is a linear unit, and "acres long" probably will too.
> By digging into them, you might be able to tell in some cases what the > unit equaled or equals. Well, it wasn't that easy. The trouble with searching on these and similar phrases is that when you find a hit, they assume you know what unit they're using! It's hard to tell whether it's the British usage where an "acre" of breadth is 1 chain, or the usage I was asking about. One notable example I came across is from a US federal law of 1824:
"...to cause the lands thus situated, to be surveyed in tracts of two acres in width, fronting on any river, bayou, lake, or water-course, and running back the depth of forty acres..."
I ended up having to go to two libraries to see a couple of the Google Books snippets in context. I thought I might as well report back: Jerry's interpretation was right.
> This one, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > River. I'd take that to mean that the acres are in the shape of > squares and the lots are four etc. squares wide. This one is anomalous. I found some other sources -- both British and American -- using "square acres" as a synonym for the ordinary acre of area, but using it as a length is remarkable. However, Jerry's interpretation turns out to be correct. "Acre" was used in North America as a linear unit equal to the length of one side of an square of area 1 acre. I found an article written in 1980 that adds, "on occasion it is still used by very old men in rural Ontario."
(The article is not saying that this is specifically an Ontario usage; its subject matter is confined to Ontario.)
Unfortunately, the same passage contains an incorrect numerical value for the unit in both feet and chains, which somewhat interferes with its credibility!
Anyway, I'll be sending my information along to the OED when I have it consolidated. Thanks for getting me started, Jerry, even if it did turn out to be harder than you suggested.
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Jonathan Morton - 23 Jan 2009 21:43 GMT > This one is anomalous. I found some other sources -- both British > and American -- using "square acres" as a synonym for the ordinary [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > for the unit in both feet and chains, which somewhat interferes with > its credibility! Yes, the square root of 4840 doesn't seem to help much at all. I always thought an acre was a chain x a furlong (i.e. 22x220). Apologies if this has been done in this thread earlier.
Regards
Jonathan
Mark Brader - 23 Jan 2009 23:05 GMT Jonathan Morton:
> I always thought an acre was a chain x a furlong (i.e. 22x220). > Apologies if this has been done in this thread earlier. Yes, I mentioned that at the start of the thread.
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Hatunen - 23 Jan 2009 22:50 GMT >This one is anomalous. I found some other sources -- both British >and American -- using "square acres" as a synonym for the ordinary [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >square of area 1 acre. I found an article written in 1980 that adds, >"on occasion it is still used by very old men in rural Ontario." I find that curious, unless an area of one acre was something other at one time; the square root of 43 560 square feet is 208.7103236.. feet, a quantity that would have been virtually unmeasurable in olden times.
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 23 Jan 2009 23:08 GMT > >This one is anomalous. I found some other sources -- both British > >and American -- using "square acres" as a synonym for the ordinary [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 208.7103236.. feet, a quantity that would have been virtually > unmeasurable in olden times. They may have approximated. Mark's original question was about a meaning of "acre" as 19/6 chains or 209 feet. In the one I quoted after you posted, the author is explicitly not too concerned with accuracy. He's advising someone on the cost of dividing up his land into fields for growing sugar cane, so it doesn't matter if one field is few feet longer than another.
-- Jerry Friedman
Mark Brader - 23 Jan 2009 23:13 GMT Mark Brader:
>> "Acre" was used in North America as a linear unit equal to the >> length of one side of an square of area 1 acre. Dave Hatunen:
> I find that curious, unless an area of one acre was something > other at one time; the square root of 43 560 square feet is > 208.7103236.. feet, a quantity that would have been virtually > unmeasurable in olden times. I find that remark curious. We're talking about the late 18th and the 19th century. Four or at most five significant digits would have been the limit of accuracy for their surveys, so all they needed to know was that it was 208.7 or 208.71 feet. And that's a calculation that could have been done as soon as decimal numbers were available, although better *ways* to do it were developed later (e.g. by Newton).
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Hatunen - 24 Jan 2009 20:53 GMT >Mark Brader: >>> "Acre" was used in North America as a linear unit equal to the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >were available, although better *ways* to do it were developed later >(e.g. by Newton). I'm well aware of their ability to measure to such precision, but my curiousness is to wonder why they would have picked an irrational number in the first place. All other units seem to come out to even numbers of other units, or to rational fractions thereof.
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Mark Brader - 24 Jan 2009 22:44 GMT Mark Brader:
>>>> "Acre" was used in North America as a linear unit equal to the >>>> length of one side of an square of area 1 acre. Dave Hatunen:
>>> I find that curious... the square root of 43 560 square feet is >>> 208.7103236.. feet, a quantity that would have been virtually >>> unmeasurable in olden times. Mark Brader:
>> I find that remark curious. We're talking about the late 18th and >> the 19th century. Four or at most five significant digits would >> have been the limit of accuracy for their surveys... [and easily >> calculated]. Dave Hatunen:
> I'm well aware of their ability to measure to such precision, but > my curiousness is to wonder why they would have picked an > irrational number in the first place. Oh, that. That was why *I* found it hard to believe too. But there was the precedent of several other units that were used both as linear and as area units, so I guess they thought it made sense to have one more.
Notably, the French analog of the acre was the arpent. It was used extensively in Quebec before the British takeover, and therefore remains in use today for land surveyed then. And it was both a linear unit equal to about 191.8 feet (or 0.92 linear acre) and area unit equal to the square of that (or 0.84 acre of area).
Come to think of it, note also that Jerry Friedman found a cite referring to the linear acre as a unit common in Louisiana -- and that was another area that used to be French territory.
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 23 Jan 2009 23:03 GMT > Last month, I (Mark Brader) asked: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > similar phrases is that when you find a hit, they assume you know what > unit they're using! I don't think I said it would be easy. I didn't mean "digging" to imply a rose garden.
> It's hard to tell whether it's the British usage > where an "acre" of breadth is 1 chain, or the usage I was asking about. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Books snippets in context. I thought I might as well report back: > Jerry's interpretation was right. Not to cavil, but I didn't interpret that passage, and if you mean the possibility that "acre" could mean 66 sqrt(10) feet, you suggested it in your original post and I just thought it was likely.
> > This one, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > This one is anomalous. But interesting, since it seems to suggest a derivation: "square acres" (one-acre plots of square shape) -> "square acres" (linear measure, since with either meaning you could say a piece of land was so many square acres wide) -> "acres" (linear measure equal to the side of that square). Not that that's necessarily what happened.
> I found some other sources -- both British > and American -- using "square acres" as a synonym for the ordinary [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > square of area 1 acre. I found an article written in 1980 that adds, > "on occasion it is still used by very old men in rural Ontario." Very interesting.
> (The article is not saying that this is specifically an Ontario usage; > its subject matter is confined to Ontario.) > > Unfortunately, the same passage contains an incorrect numerical value > for the unit in both feet and chains, which somewhat interferes with > its credibility! Well...
> Anyway, I'll be sending my information along to the OED when I have it > consolidated. Thanks for getting me started, Jerry, even if it did > turn out to be harder than you suggested. I'm glad I helped, even if only a little.
I still think the Louisiana reference I found is unequivocal. It has 4 3/4 acres equaling "about 1000 feet." If it had said "exactly 1000 feet," it would have been off by less than 2 feet.
http://books.google.com/books?id=o-coAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA158
Right column, about 2/3 of the way down, with enough context on that page, for once.
-- Jerry Friedman
Mark Brader - 23 Jan 2009 23:23 GMT Jerry Friedman:
> Not to cavil, but I didn't interpret that passage, Well, you suggested a likely interpretation.
> you suggested it in your original post and I just thought it was likely. I mentioned it, but said I thought it was very unlikely!
> ... it seems to suggest a derivation: "square > acres" (one-acre plots of square shape) -> "square acres" (linear > measure, since with either meaning you could say a piece of land was > so many square acres wide) -> "acres" (linear measure equal to the > side of that square). Not that that's necessarily what happened. I agree.
> I still think the Louisiana reference I found is unequivocal. It has > 4 3/4 acres equaling "about 1000 feet." If it had said "exactly 1000 > feet," it would have been off by less than 2 feet. 2 feet in the length of an "acre", about 9 feet for the total distance. Anyway, it's unequivocal as to the approximate value, but I already had that: the Haldimand letter I quoted seems to say that 6 linear acres equals 19 chains. That gives a linear acre that disagrees from sqrt(10) by only about 3.5 inches.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=o-coAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA158 > > Right column, about 2/3 of the way down, with enough context on that > page, for once. Thanks.
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 29 Dec 2008 05:40 GMT ...
> However, I recently came across a couple of older passages (details > below), where "acre" seemed to be being used as a unit of length. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > # (i.e. furrow-length); an "acre breadth", 4 poles or 22 yards. > # Obs. or dial. ...
> Anyway, if we assume that 19 chains is exact, and if "acre in the front" > is meant as a linear unit, then that unit must equal 19/6 chains or > exactly 209 feet. This is quite close to the sqrt(10) value given above. ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=o-coAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA158&dq="acres+wide"
"Using acres for lineal measure, as we so commonly do in Louisiana" (in 1889), 4 3/4 acres is about 1000 feet.
Should we alert Jesse Sheidlower?
-- Jerry Friedman
Mike Lyle - 29 Dec 2008 21:48 GMT > ... > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Should we alert Jesse Sheidlower? Not wholly irrelevantly, colonial authorities did sometimes mark "unexploited" land off in regular rectangles for settlement. I think we had such blocks in parts of Australia, though in the bush the linear unit was more likely to be the mile. If I remember, one of my cousins' property is like that. I was struck in Libya by the way some agricultural areas had been set out in neat Fascist square, or maybe oblong, smallholdings during the Italian occupation: each unit contained a house and was bounded by straight roads, or tracks. The authors of that system would conveniently have conceived of its acres in standard dimensions, so that a standard rectangular plot could well have been seen as "X by Y acres".
 Signature Mike.
Mark Brader - 31 Dec 2008 05:38 GMT Jerry Friedman:
> Should we alert Jesse Sheidlower? I was planning to email the OED after this thread ran down.
 Signature Mark Brader | "Don't you want to... see my ID? ... I could be anybody." Toronto | "No you couldn't, sir. This is Information Retrieval." msb@vex.net | --Brazil
Mike Barnes - 31 Dec 2008 08:20 GMT In alt.usage.english, jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote:
>Should we alert Jesse Sheidlower? I think you've just done that.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 31 Dec 2008 11:17 GMT >In alt.usage.english, jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote: >>Should we alert Jesse Sheidlower? > >I think you've just done that. I think I recall JS suggesting that people use the OED submissions email address rather than contacting him.
oed3@oup.com
http://dictionary.oed.com/readers/
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Mike Barnes - 31 Dec 2008 11:55 GMT In alt.usage.english, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
>>In alt.usage.english, jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote: >>>Should we alert Jesse Sheidlower? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >http://dictionary.oed.com/readers/ I also recall him saying something recently that suggested that any aue postings containing his name were automatically brought to his attention. I forget the exact words he used but I got the impression that he used a service that looked for his name rather more widely than just in aue. That would be a useful service for someone in a prominent position and having an unusual name.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 31 Dec 2008 13:14 GMT >In alt.usage.english, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >just in aue. That would be a useful service for someone in a prominent >position and having an unusual name. Yes. I think I recall that.
The question is whether to channel submissions via JS or via the advertised submissions email address. There is an obvious attraction in dealing with a known individual but there are presumably more people available to receive submissions via the email address.
As JS's bailiwick is North America it would seem appropriate to limit submissions via him to those where North American origin or usage is pertinent.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 01 Jan 2009 01:10 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote: > > >>In alt.usage.english, jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: > >>>Should we alert Jesse Sheidlower? > > >>I think you've just done that. I might have, but I'm not sure.
> >I think I recall JS suggesting that people use the OED submissions email > >address rather than contacting him. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > just in aue. That would be a useful service for someone in a prominent > position and having an unusual name. In September, Evan suggested that we add "attn Jesse Sheidlower" to posts with antedatings.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_thread/thread/6d86bd8a7e add814/18e27123571dfb55?lnk=gst&q=attn+Jesse+Sheidlower#18e27123571dfb55
or <http://tinyurl.com/8p73lw>. JS responded to the first couple, but hasn't since. Looking at that post of his, I saw what might be the one that Mike is referring to, which I'll copy in its entirety.
"One could also send e-mail to oed3@oup.com; indeed, one could just forward a newsgroup post to that address. I'd hope that isn't too much effort for someone who's already done some database searching and bothered to type up the results for a.u.e."
JS responded to the first couple of posts with the "attn" message, but hasn't responded since. I think I'll forward my antedating or two to that address, just to make sure.
Also, he said that the OED staff will probably find antedatings themselves if they're in the major databases, though they still appreciate our sending them. Something like this meaning of "acre" that Mark has found seems more useful, since you can't automatically search for senses you don't know. Not yet, anyway.
-- Jerry Friedman
Jesse Sheidlower - 01 Jan 2009 21:36 GMT >> In alt.usage.english, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >JS responded to the first couple of posts with the "attn" message, but >hasn't responded since. Mainly because most of those since have been quite straightforward, and I figured you (pl.) would know that I'm probably picking them up, but that it wasn't necessary for me to say "Thanks, got it" every time.
> I think I'll forward my antedating or two to >that address, just to make sure. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >that Mark has found seems more useful, since you can't automatically >search for senses you don't know. Not yet, anyway. Yes, a new meaning (or a missed older meaning) is generally something we'd very much like to know about. Indeed, in the last few years the focus of the OED's reading program(me)s has shifted from supplying evidence in general--which can now usually be better done by means of one of the major databases--to identifying new senses or nuances or uses of existing terms, which (so far, and in the foreseeable future) cannot readily be done automatically.
Jesse Sheidlower OED
JimboCat - 02 Jan 2009 20:28 GMT > As everyone knows, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > However, I recently came across a couple of older passages (details > below), where "acre" seemed to be being used as a unit of length. This issue of using the word "acre" to denote a length rather than an area may have its converse. Or not...
On page 318 of "Maps of Time (An Introduction to Big History)" by David Christian, the "megameter" is quite curiously defined as 100,000 square kilometers. The previous page includes a table using megameters as units of area lifted from an article in the journal "Social Science Research" published in 1978.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bs_sLdKGS5gC&pg=PA318&lpg=PA318&dq=maps+of+time +megameter&source=bl&ots=yE6O_hzvET&sig=fNYkRy3N_RKN0_49MEMpDATold0&hl=en&sa=X&o i=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
No other trace of such a use of the word "megameter" has yielded to my admittedly weak google-fu. What seem to me like *real* meanings for the word abound, however. These include such obvious usages as one million meters, several very imposing measuring devices, others measuring very large values of something or other, the square megameter (1,000,000 square km), etcetera.
Note that I have discerned a number of quite definite howlers in this book, though its main problem is that it fails to retain my interest -- I've been reading it for months but just can't seem to sustain the effort long enough to get to the last page...
I am pretty certain the solution to the "megameter" problem is simply a pair of errors: he means "square megameter" and he also means "(1,000,000 square km)". As a quick feasibility check, I find Wikipedia claiming the Roman Empire covered 5,000,000 km^2 where Christian's table gives 4.0 "megameters" in the same period. Closely matched.
Not a usage question after all: just another error by another insufficiently careful author.
Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- There are 10 kinds of people; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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