Out of the depth of his time

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Marius Hancu - 30 Dec 2008 12:39 GMT

Hello:

"out of the depth of his time"
seems quite profound and important (esp in this novel, in which time
is so important)
but I'm not sure I get it.

My reading is "out of the spiritual resources allocated to his time
(on the earth), or to his being?"

Doesn't seem to be an idiom, but it could be biblical.

--------
[Castorp decides to remain longer at the sanatorium because of his
love for Mme Chauchat and because he hasn't yet obtained the answer to
some crucial questions about life and death]

... we would hazard to surmise that Hans Castorp would never have
overstepped so far the limits originally set for his stay if to his
simple soul there might have been vouchsafed, out of the depth of his
time, any reasonably satisfying explanation of the meaning and purpose
of man's life.

The Magic Mountain, p. 232
by Thomas Mann, Tr. Helen Tracy Lowe-Porter
----

Thanks.
Marius Hancu

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CDB - 30 Dec 2008 13:41 GMT

> "out of the depth of his time"
> seems quite profound and important (esp in this novel, in which time
> is so important)
> but I'm not sure I get it.

> My reading is "out of the spiritual resources allocated to his time
> (on the earth), or to his being?"

That could be part of it. I hesitate to give this translator credit
for multiple meanings, but maybe Mann put them into the original.

> Doesn't seem to be an idiom, but it could be biblical.

"Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD." The first verse
of Psalm 130, a song of longing for mercy and forgiveness. If the
singular "depth" is a translator's mistake, and Mann intended a
biblical reference, I would take the principal meaning to be that his
time in the sanatorium was one of suffering, in compensation for which
he might hope for some mercy or out of which he might have gained some
wisdom; perhaps there is also a comparison of his time in the san to
the view of life as a trial and preparation for a better life to come.

> [Castorp decides to remain longer at the sanatorium because of his
> love for Mme Chauchat and because he hasn't yet obtained the answer
> to some crucial questions about life and death]

> ... we would hazard to surmise that Hans Castorp would never have
> overstepped so far the limits originally set for his stay if to his
> simple soul there might have been vouchsafed, out of the depth of
> his time, any reasonably satisfying explanation of the meaning and
> purpose of man's life.

> The Magic Mountain, p. 232
> by Thomas Mann, Tr. Helen Tracy Lowe-Porter

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Marius Hancu - 30 Dec 2008 18:19 GMT

> > "out of the depth of his time"
> > seems quite profound and important (esp in this novel, in which time
> > is so important)
> > but I'm not sure I get it.

> > My reading is "out of the spiritual resources allocated to his time
> > (on the earth), or to his being?"
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> "Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD." The first verse
> of Psalm 130, a song of longing for mercy and forgiveness.

Interesting, but I can't make the connection.

> If the
> singular "depth" is a translator's mistake, and Mann intended a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> wisdom; perhaps there is also a comparison of his time in the san to
> the view of life as a trial and preparation for a better life to come.

I understand that, but I can't quite get it from (the more complete)
quotation:

---------
On the one hand his passion dwelt, with an immediacy that left the
young man pale and staring, upon Frau Chauchat's knee, the line of her
thigh, her back, her neck bone, her arms that pressed together her
little breasts -- in a word, it dwelt upon her body, her idle,
accentuated body, exaggerated by disease, and rendered twice-over
body. And, on the other hand, it was something in the highest degree
fleeting and tenuous; a thought, nay, a dream, the frightful,
infinitely alluring dream of a young man whose unspoken, unconscious
questioning of the universe has received no answer save a hollow
silence. We have as much right as the next person to our private
thoughts about the story we're relating; and we would here hazard the
surmise that Hans Castorp would never have overstepped so far the
limits originally set for his stay if to his simple soul there might
have been vouchsafed, out of the depth of his time, any reasonably
satisfying explanation of the meaning and purpose of man's life.

p. 233-234
-----------

Thanks.
Marius Hancu

Reply to this Message

CDB - 30 Dec 2008 20:56 GMT

>>> "out of the depth of his time"
>>> seems quite profound and important (esp in this novel, in which
>>> time is so important)
>>> but I'm not sure I get it.

>>> My reading is "out of the spiritual resources allocated to his
>>> time (on the earth), or to his being?"

>> That could be part of it. I hesitate to give this translator
>> credit for multiple meanings, but maybe Mann put them into the
>> original.

>>> Doesn't seem to be an idiom, but it could be biblical.

>> "Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD." The first
>> verse of Psalm 130, a song of longing for mercy and forgiveness.

> Interesting, but I can't make the connection.

>> If the
>> singular "depth" is a translator's mistake, and Mann intended a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> time in the san to the view of life as a trial and preparation for
>> a better life to come.

> I understand that, but I can't quite get it from (the more complete)
> quotation:

> On the one hand his passion dwelt, with an immediacy that left the
> young man pale and staring, upon Frau Chauchat's knee, the line of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> reasonably satisfying explanation of the meaning and purpose of
> man's life.

> p. 233-234

When I was googling around after I sent my previous message, I came
across this:

In the informative afterword written retrospectively, Mann states that
"what [Hans] came to understand is that one must go through the deep
experience of sickness and death to arrive at a higher sanity and
health . . . ."
http://litmed.med.nyu.edu/Annotation?action=view&annid=313

It seems to confirm that that was at least partly what Mann had in
mind. I don't know if the sedition* you're reading has the afterword.

*Decided to leave it that way.

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Leslie Danks - 30 Dec 2008 21:19 GMT

[...]

> When I was googling around after I sent my previous message, I came
> across this:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> *Decided to leave it that way.

I don't want to spit in the soup, but while it is reasonable to discuss the
grammar and English usage of the translation, discussing its meaning at
more than a superficial level seems slightly bizarre. Shirley if you want
to know exactly what Mann meant, you have to study the German original. The
translation will tell you what the translator thought he meant, and from
what we've seen so far, this translator seems a bit iffy.

Signature

Les (BrE)

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CDB - 31 Dec 2008 02:19 GMT

> [...]

>> When I was googling around after I sent my previous message, I came
>> across this:

>> In the informative afterword written retrospectively, Mann states
>> that "what [Hans] came to understand is that one must go through
>> the deep experience of sickness and death to arrive at a higher
>> sanity and health . . . ."
>> http://litmed.med.nyu.edu/Annotation?action=view&annid=313

>> It seems to confirm that that was at least partly what Mann had in
>> mind. I don't know if the sedition* you're reading has the
>> afterword.

>> *Decided to leave it that way.

> I don't want to spit in the soup, but while it is reasonable to
> discuss the grammar and English usage of the translation,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> tell you what the translator thought he meant, and from what we've
> seen so far, this translator seems a bit iffy.

I generally feel we're doing well if there's any linguistic aspect to
the discussion at all. I'm not fond of the translation, but Marius
was asking, as is his custom, for opinions on the meaning of an
English text. In this case, the text is a translation, which
complicates matters but doesn't take them as far off topic, IMO, as a
discussion of the meaning of a German text -- even if it's the
original of the translation -- even if I were able to carry on such a
discussion.

You can't spit in the soup unless you're a bird, innit.

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Marius Hancu - 31 Dec 2008 03:33 GMT

> It seems to confirm that that was at least partly what Mann had in
> mind. I don't know if the sedition* you're reading has the afterword.
>
> *Decided to leave it that way.

Yes, it has it, but you realize I won't read it during my first pass
through the novel. Spoils the fun:-)

Thanks.
Marius Hancu

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Discussion Groups / English Usage / December 2008

Out of the depth of his time