Working-class teachers
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Wood Avens - 31 Dec 2008 16:27 GMT I've finally got around to reading the nearly-POTUS's remarkable book "Dreams From My Father".
I was somewhat taken aback that, in a passage relating to a particular church in Chicago in the 1980s, he says "the bulk of its membership was solidly working class, the same teachers and secretaries and government workers one found in other big black churches throughout the city." He then refers to the "professionals in its ranks: engineers, doctors, accountants, and corporate managers."
I appreciate that this may raise all sorts of issues around "class" in the US. Notwithstanding: in current AmE, are teachers not considered "professionals"?
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Marius Hancu - 31 Dec 2008 16:45 GMT > I appreciate that this may raise all sorts of issues around "class" in > the US. Notwithstanding: in current AmE, are teachers not considered > "professionals"? I think they're not.
This article from the New York Times is 1988, but ...
-------- Are Teachers Professionals?
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Published: April 12, 1988
LEAD: Ten years of changes to improve teaching have produced an ''awesome'' amount of legislation but left unsettled the issue of whether teachers are professionals or ''semiskilled workers,'' said a Rand Corporation report released yesterday.
Ten years of changes to improve teaching have produced an ''awesome'' amount of legislation but left unsettled the issue of whether teachers are professionals or ''semiskilled workers,'' said a Rand Corporation report released yesterday
http://tinyurl.com/84w695 ---------- Also see at the same site: http://tinyurl.com/8ey8q7
Marius Hancu
R H Draney - 01 Jan 2009 03:24 GMT Marius Hancu filted:
>> I appreciate that this may raise all sorts of issues around "class" in >> the US. Notwithstanding: in current AmE, are teachers not considered [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >are professionals or ''semiskilled workers,'' said a Rand Corporation >report released yesterday I often find myself in possession of a survey that needs filling out and I can't figure out which category my job falls into...is programming a "professional", "technical" or "clerical" position?...
I think the categories were chosen before anybody was making a living as a "knowledge worker"....r
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Pat Durkin - 01 Jan 2009 04:31 GMT > Marius Hancu filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > "professional", > "technical" or "clerical" position?... Whatever will get you the job, or the bonus, or the perks, or the most admiration.
After all, who will be checking? Oh, is this a US Census pre-list, by any chance? What do you think will impress the analyst the most? (And, you are bright enough to know that having a crisis over the answer means you _need_ an analyst, aren't you?)
> I think the categories were chosen before anybody was making a living > as a > "knowledge worker"....r R H Draney - 01 Jan 2009 05:57 GMT Pat Durkin filted:
>> I often find myself in possession of a survey that needs filling out >> and I can't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >you are bright enough to know that having a crisis over the answer means >you _need_ an analyst, aren't you?) I don't think any of those things (job, bonus, admiration) are on the line...this is usually the demographic-classification part of something that wants to know who buys the most instant hot cereal or what flavor of window cleaner is most popular....r
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Mark Brader - 01 Jan 2009 16:43 GMT R.H. Draney:
> I often find myself in possession of a survey that needs filling out > and I can't figure out which category my job falls into...is programming > a "professional", "technical" or "clerical" position? Wouldn't occur to me to put anything but "technical". Hope this helps.
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John Varela - 01 Jan 2009 17:43 GMT > I often find myself in possession of a survey that needs filling out and I > can't > figure out which category my job falls into...is programming a "professional", > "technical" or "clerical" position?... Does your job require a college degree in the field? If yes, then I'd say "professional" and if not then "technical". This distinction is clearer in engineering, where there are personnel called "technicians" and "technical assistants" who are clearly sub-professionals. I'd say that a computer operator, is such still exists, is "technical". The IT people who do routine installations and trouble-shooting, including OS installations, are "technical". The guy who is hacking the OS is a "professional". The drudge who is maintaining the 50-year-old Cobol code is borderline...
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 02 Jan 2009 17:10 GMT > > I often find myself in possession of a survey that needs filling out and I > > can't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > clearer in engineering, where there are personnel called "technicians" > and "technical assistants" who are clearly sub-professionals. I take it community colleges, such as the one I teach at, and other two-year colleges aren't the kind of colleges you're talking about. I think pretty much all young technicians have two-year degrees. There are now bachelor's programs for technicians--"Bachelor of Science in Engineering Technology" and the like.
> I'd say > that a computer operator, is such still exists, is "technical". I (too) haven't heard that job title in years. There are lots of network technicians around, though.
> The IT > people who do routine installations and trouble-shooting, including OS > installations, are "technical". The guy who is hacking the OS is a > "professional". The drudge who is maintaining the 50-year-old Cobol > code is borderline... Jerry Friedman
John Varela - 02 Jan 2009 21:04 GMT > > I'd say > > that a computer operator, is such still exists, is "technical". > > I (too) haven't heard that job title in years. There are lots of > network technicians around, though. I had a friend who had an EE degree from Johns Hopkins who was a network guy at a local engineering company. I was having trouble setting up my first Wi-Fi network and asked him for help. He said he didn't know anything about that. Sigh.
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Garrett Wollman - 31 Dec 2008 17:09 GMT >[Obama writes] "the bulk of its membership was solidly working class, >the same teachers and secretaries and government workers one found in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >the US. Notwithstanding: in current AmE, are teachers not considered >"professionals"? Yes and no. They are considered "professionals" in that (for the public schools at least) they must be licensed by the state in order to gain employment, and many teachers have Master's degrees. However, teaching is a unionized profession; nearly all public-school teachers belong to one of the two major trade unions, the American Federation of Teachers and the National Education Association. That's pretty a pretty strong marker for "working class" in the U.S., and the typical teacher's salary may be less than half what a doctor, lawyer, or bank vice-president of similar working years makes. Public employees are not well-compensated here.
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Cece - 31 Dec 2008 17:20 GMT > In article <n47nl491v6m99m88ikj0ck532q48tar...@4ax.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape > of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness And it sure seems that most of them are unskilled workers.
the Omrud - 31 Dec 2008 17:41 GMT >> [Obama writes] "the bulk of its membership was solidly working class, >> the same teachers and secretaries and government workers one found in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > vice-president of similar working years makes. Public employees are > not well-compensated here. UK teachers would be astonished to earn half the salary of a doctor. Putting it simply, a full-time GP would expect to earn more than £100k, whereas a classroom teacher can't pass £30k without taking on extra responsibilities, and no more than aboug £35k without entering "management". A head teacher (=US principal) can earn between £30k and £75k under normal circumstances, depending on the size of the school.
Nearly all UK teachers belong to trades unions, but that's because the unions provide free insurance for actions taken during their working hours (e.g. an accident to a child). There's no requirement for them to join a union, but I've never heard of one who didn't. Teachers must have either a BEd or a first degree followed by a one-year Post Graduate Certificate in Education. There are other routes, but they're rarely used and still rely on a first degree.
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Adrian Bailey - 31 Dec 2008 19:02 GMT >>> [Obama writes] "the bulk of its membership was solidly working class, >>> the same teachers and secretaries and government workers one found in [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > UK teachers would be astonished to earn half the salary of a doctor. > Putting it simply, a full-time GP would expect to earn more than £100k, The minimum GP salary is £52k. A normal GP salary is in the range £80k-£120k. The senior hospital doctors' (aka specialists'/consultants') pay scale is £73k-£173k. Believe it or not, the basic salary of a junior hospital doctor is £22k, but it's possible to earn up to around £70k before qualifying as a consultant.
> whereas a classroom teacher can't pass £30k without taking on extra > responsibilities, and no more than aboug £35k without entering > "management". The teachers' basic pay scale is currently £21k-£35k, but only a relatively small proportion of teachers receive no additional payments.
> A head teacher (=US principal) can earn between £30k and £75k under normal > circumstances, depending on the size of the school. The leadership pay scale is £36k-£100k. Deputy heads in large schools earn around £50k.
Teachers and heads in London receive a bonus of up to £7k a year.
Adrian
TsuiDF - 31 Dec 2008 18:18 GMT > In article <n47nl491v6m99m88ikj0ck532q48tar...@4ax.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > vice-president of similar working years makes. Public employees are > not well-compensated here. Yes, I was quite surprised on moving from the US to Europe to discover that here public sector employees are both unionised and well- compensated. I can't quite get my head around a trades union that represents, say, a bunch of government lawyers.... On the other hand, sometimes I can see the need for one, too.
Stephanie in Brussels
Jeffrey Turner - 31 Dec 2008 19:55 GMT >> In article <n47nl491v6m99m88ikj0ck532q48tar...@4ax.com>, >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > represents, say, a bunch of government lawyers.... On the other hand, > sometimes I can see the need for one, too. In the U.S. we have AFSCME.
--Jeff
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John Varela - 01 Jan 2009 17:48 GMT >> Yes, I was quite surprised on moving from the US to Europe to discover >> that here public sector employees are both unionised and well- [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > In the U.S. we have AFSCME. Not to mention the AFGE and NATCA.
http://www.afge.org/ http://www.natca.org/
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Don Aitken - 31 Dec 2008 20:19 GMT >> In article <n47nl491v6m99m88ikj0ck532q48tar...@4ax.com>, >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >represents, say, a bunch of government lawyers.... On the other hand, >sometimes I can see the need for one, too. Britain's most exclusive union is probably the FDA (formerly the Association of First Division Civil Servants), which represents a few thousand very senior civil servants, diplomats, government prosecutors, policy advisors, and the like, all of them extremely well paid - see http://www.fda.org.uk/Aboutus/About-us.aspx
There is no assumption in this country that belonging to a union necessarily goes with being "working class". Most unions of this type now belong to the TUC, although they tend, like the FDA, which makes a point of being "strictly politically neutral", not to affiliate to the Labour Party.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 31 Dec 2008 20:42 GMT >>> In article <n47nl491v6m99m88ikj0ck532q48tar...@4ax.com>, >>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >There is no assumption in this country that belonging to a union >necessarily goes with being "working class". Indeed. The union of which I am a member, the University and College Union (UCU): http://www.ucu.org.uk/
is the largest trade union and professional association for academics, lecturers, trainers, researchers and academic-related staff working in further and higher education throughout the UK.
"academics" includes full professors.
http://www.ucu.org.uk//index.cfm?articleid=1685
(UCU) represents more than 120,000 academics, lecturers, trainers, instructors, researchers, managers, administrators, computer staff, librarians and postgraduates in universities, colleges, prisons, adult education and training organisations across the UK.
> Most unions of this type >now belong to the TUC, although they tend, like the FDA, which makes a >point of being "strictly politically neutral", not to affiliate to the >Labour Party.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
TsuiDF - 01 Jan 2009 12:13 GMT > Britain's most exclusive union is probably the FDA (formerly the > Association of First Division Civil Servants), which represents a few > thousand very senior civil servants, diplomats, government > prosecutors, policy advisors, and the like, all of them extremely well > paid - seehttp://www.fda.org.uk/Aboutus/About-us.aspx This is hilarious! I read this bit out loud to my NYM (well, he's no longer New Young Man now -- he's Partner), only to have him say, 'Oh yes -- I used to be a member!' I'm not sure he would have agreed with the 'extremely' bit in 'well paid' though. Even funnier, he told me that when he moved to the East End of London (not exactly a fabulously well-compensated part of the world) and joined the local Labour Party, he was asked which trades union he belonged to. He replied, 'First Division Association' -- and the working assumption seemed to be that he played for West Ham.
Thank you for completely inadvertently enlivening our New Year's Day.
cheers, Stephanie
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 01 Jan 2009 13:25 GMT >> Britain's most exclusive union is probably the FDA (formerly the >> Association of First Division Civil Servants), which represents a few >> thousand very senior civil servants, diplomats, government >> prosecutors, policy advisors, and the like, all of them extremely well >> paid - seehttp://www.fda.org.uk/Aboutus/About-us.aspx It says:
The FDA represents more than 18,000 senior public servants and professionals across the UK
I think that is a somewhat inclusive version of "exclusive".
>This is hilarious! I read this bit out loud to my NYM (well, he's no >longer New Young Man now -- he's Partner), only to have him say, 'Oh [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Thank you for completely inadvertently enlivening our New Year's Day. <chuckle>
However, the FDA does have in membership some very well paid civil servants.
This is a further illustration of the point that in the UK "trade union" membership is not restricted to lower paid employees.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Nick - 01 Jan 2009 13:46 GMT > This is a further illustration of the point that in the UK "trade union" > membership is not restricted to lower paid employees. I'm not only in a trade union, I'm an elected representative. And while I may not be rich, to describe me as "lower paid" would be quite wrong.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 01 Jan 2009 14:24 GMT >This is hilarious! I read this bit out loud to my NYM (well, he's no >longer New Young Man now -- he's Partner), My congratulations to Partner at having survived his probationary period.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
R H Draney - 01 Jan 2009 17:48 GMT BrE filted:
>>This is hilarious! I read this bit out loud to my NYM (well, he's no >>longer New Young Man now -- he's Partner), > >My congratulations to Partner at having survived his probationary period. I assume the promotion is a calendar-year thing....r
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 01 Jan 2009 18:13 GMT >BrE filted: >> >>>This is hilarious! I read this bit out loud to my NYM (well, he's no >>>longer New Young Man now -- he's Partner), >> >>My congratulations to Partner at having survived his probationary period. <compose message, send message, then some time later proofread message>
I think "congratulations to Partner *on* having" would be more conventional.
>I assume the promotion is a calendar-year thing....r Could be.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Maria C. - 01 Jan 2009 19:38 GMT >> Peter Duncanson (BrE) filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Could be. "Calendar-year thing" or otherwise, it's delightful news from Steph.
And here's for a wonderful New Year for her and Partner -- and for all AUEers, as well.
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TsuiDF - 02 Jan 2009 10:58 GMT On Jan 1, 3:24 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
> >This is hilarious! I read this bit out loud to my NYM (well, he's no > >longer New Young Man now -- he's Partner), > > My congratulations to Partner at having survived his probationary period. It wasn't so much a probationary period, just the amount of time it took me to believe my good fortune. (ObAUE: He is also the only other person beside Graeme late-of-this-group I've ever met who's from Lytham St Annes, since I left that town.) But thank you!
Re the discussion above about the FDA, he *did* mention that it was probably 'the most embarrassing union to belong to', which I thought was endearingly modest.
cheers, Stephanie
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 02 Jan 2009 17:25 GMT >On Jan 1, 3:24 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >person beside Graeme late-of-this-group I've ever met who's from >Lytham St Annes, since I left that town.) But thank you! My Best Wishes to you and Partner for 2009 and beyond.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
John Kane - 03 Jan 2009 17:58 GMT > > Britain's most exclusive union is probably the FDA (formerly the > > Association of First Division Civil Servants), which represents a few [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > This is hilarious! Any change that Sir Henry was the founding member?
I cannot remember if our very very senior civil servants ( deputy ministers and similar ( like a UK permanent sec.) are union members but most of our economists, lawyer etc are, I believe are members of the Public Service Union of Canada.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada.
Paul Wolff - 01 Jan 2009 00:42 GMT >In article <n47nl491v6m99m88ikj0ck532q48tarb8h@4ax.com>, >>[Obama writes] "the bulk of its membership was solidly working class, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >teacher's salary may be less than half what a doctor, lawyer, or bank >vice-president of similar working years makes. But in England, general practice lawyers, called solicitors, belong to a trade(s) union, The Law Society, and likewise doctors belong to The British Medical Association. While these bodies corporate do not claim to be unions, they act as such, and de facto may be considered to be such.
The point is that membership of a body that represents the practitioners in a field and effectively controls who may work in the field, and by what qualifications, and which participates in fee/wage/compensation negotiations and recompense scale setting, is indistinguishable from membership of a trades union.
>Public employees are >not well-compensated here. Traditionally, here, their pensions compensate for their compensation.
Happy 2009, especially to those of you who haven't met it yet. Advance notice: so far, it's not at all bad.
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Garrett Wollman - 01 Jan 2009 02:57 GMT >But in England, general practice lawyers, called solicitors, belong to a >trade(s) union, The Law Society, and likewise doctors belong to The >British Medical Association. While these bodies corporate do not claim >to be unions, they act as such, and de facto may be considered to be >such. The equivalent bodies in the U.S. are very much not unions and would make significant effort to avoid being involuntarily classified as such.
>The point is that membership of a body that represents the practitioners >in a field and effectively controls who may work in the field, and by >what qualifications, and which participates in fee/wage/compensation >negotiations and recompense scale setting, is indistinguishable from >membership of a trades union. Neither the AMA nor the ABA have control over who may work in their fields, although they do make recommendations to policymakers as to what qualifications ought to be required by the various authorities. In some states, the state bar association has regulatory power with repsect to the state bar; in other states, this authority is held by an independent body, or by the state's highest court. (In this, it is similar to the regulatory role formerly held by the New York Stock Exchange and the National Association of Securities Dealers over securities firms and dealers, parallel to and distinct from that of the Securities and Exchange Commission. When the NYSE went public, its regulatory body was merged with NASD under a new name, Financial Industry Regulatory Authority or FINRA.) The AMA is a trade association like any other; its primary function is to hire lots of expensive K Street lobbyists to represent doctors' interest in the hallways and back rooms of Congress and the Executive Branch; it is also an important publisher of medical information and medical information standards. (It previously did overtly operate like a guild, resulting in a Depression-era conviction for violating the Sherman Act by prohibiting its members from working for HMOs.)
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Pat Durkin - 31 Dec 2008 19:37 GMT > I've finally got around to reading the nearly-POTUS's remarkable book > "Dreams From My Father". [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the US. Notwithstanding: in current AmE, are teachers not considered > "professionals"? Of course we have a class system in the US--the moneyed class, and all the rest. Teachers have never been part* of the moneyed class, although university professors hold their noses when considered part of the lowly "teachers" category.
*Oh, they have pretensions to professionalism, especially when trying to negotiate for additional benefits from the local school boards, but the very fact of their having to negotiate via labor union rules (and, at least in Wisconsin, having to represent the secretaries, cooks and janitors) rather speaks against such puffery.
Wood Avens - 31 Dec 2008 20:35 GMT >> I've finally got around to reading the nearly-POTUS's remarkable book >> "Dreams From My Father". [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >least in Wisconsin, having to represent the secretaries, cooks and >janitors) rather speaks against such puffery. Interesting.
There are various systems for categorising people in the UK, but none of them relate to whether or not pay scales are negotiated by a union, and in any case there's a lot of overlap between those organisations calling themselves "unions" and those which are associations or professional bodies or what have you. Doctors' pay scales are negotiated with the British Medical Association, for instance.
One of the UK scales, the NS-SEC (National Statistics Socio-Economic Classifications), which is used for the UK's ten-year census, looks like this (I think this is the current version) :
1. Higher managerial and professional occupations
1.1 Employers and managers in larger organisations (e.g. company directors, senior company managers, senior civil servants, senior officers in police and armed forces.)
1.2 Higher professionals (e.g. doctors, lawyers, clergy, teachers and social workers.)
2. Lower Managerial and professional occupations (e.g. nurses and midwives, journalists, actors, musicians, prison officers, lower ranks of police and armed forces.)
3. Intermediate occupations (e.g. clerks, secretaries, driving instructors, telephone fitters.)
4. Small Employers and own account workers (e.g. publicans, farmers, taxi drivers, window cleaners, painters and decorators.)
5. Lower supervisory, craft and related occupations (e.g. printers, plumbers, television engineers, train drivers, butchers.)
6. Semi-routine occupations (e.g. shop assistants, hairdressers, bus drivers, cooks.)
7. Routine occupations (e.g. couriers, labourers, waiters and refuse collectors.)
8. Plus an eighth category to cover those who have never had paid work and the long term unemployed.
You'll see from this why I was surprised to see teachers in the US being considered "non-professional".
A different but similar scale, the "ABC1" scale, is used by advertisers and market researchers in the UK:
GROUP A - Professional Workers (lawyers, doctors etc.), Scientists, Managers of large scale organisations.
GROUP B - Shopkeepers, Farmers, Teachers, White-Collar workers.
GROUP C - 1. Skilled Manual (i.e. hand) workers - high grade e.g. Master Builders, Carpenters, Shop Assistants, Nurses.
2. Skilled Manual - low grade e.g. electricians, plumbers.
GROUP D - Semi-Skilled Manual e.g. bus drivers, lorry drivers, fitters.
GROUP E - Unskilled Manual e.g. general labourers, barmen, porters.
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Maria C. - 01 Jan 2009 19:18 GMT > There are various systems for categorising people in the UK, but none > of them relate to whether or not pay scales are negotiated by a union, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > midwives, journalists, actors, musicians, prison officers, lower ranks > of police and armed forces.) [...]
> GROUP A - > Professional Workers (lawyers, doctors etc.), Scientists, Managers of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 1. Skilled Manual (i.e. hand) workers - high grade e.g. Master > Builders, Carpenters, Shop Assistants, Nurses. [...]
I am somewhat surprised (and not pleasantly so), to see nurses in the "Lower Managerial and professional occupations" rather than in the "Higher professionals," and also put in GROUP C, rather than in A or B.
I'm not sure how nurses rank on pay scales (and how those pay scale ranks are named) in the US, but I would think that Registered Nurses, at least, rank higher (in the US) than in Britain.
But if the rankings above are just about pay scales -- and nothing else -- I suppose those classifications could be accurate. Are there other "groupings" based on things other than pay?
 Signature Maria Conlon
Don Aitken - 01 Jan 2009 21:58 GMT >> There are various systems for categorising people in the UK, but none >> of them relate to whether or not pay scales are negotiated by a union, [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >ranks are named) in the US, but I would think that Registered Nurses, at >least, rank higher (in the US) than in Britain. The high pay and status accorded to anyone doing a job connected with medicine in the USA is unparalleled anywhere else. In some countries, notably in eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, even doctors come much lower than you might expect (which is probably connected with the fact that the overwhelming majority of them are women). But, even in Britain, I would never expect to see nurses classified as "higher professional" (maybe they should be - that's another issue).
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Richard Yates - 01 Jan 2009 22:39 GMT >>> There are various systems for categorising people in the UK, but >>> none of them relate to whether or not pay scales are negotiated by [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > even in Britain, I would never expect to see nurses classified as > "higher professional" (maybe they should be - that's another issue). Becoming a Registered Nurse requires only two or three years beyond high school. My experience is that those who take that route tend to be the ones with only average grades in school that do not have the aptitude or intellectual resources to go to college.
tony cooper - 01 Jan 2009 23:32 GMT >Becoming a Registered Nurse requires only two or three years beyond high >school. My experience is that those who take that route tend to be the ones >with only average grades in school that do not have the aptitude or >intellectual resources to go to college. I will try and remain fair and balanced in this reply. My wife is a nurse, and not a person without the aptitude or intellectual resources to go to college. She was a straight-A student in high school.
She went to nursing school because she wanted to be a nurse and work in surgery. This was in 1956, and there was not a nursing school in the town she lived in that was affiliated with a university. A non-university-affiliated nursing program graduate is an R.N. She didn't have the economic resources to go away to college, and the local Catholic hospital had a very good three year nursing program.
Skip ahead to the 80s, with our two children in college, and she did go to college and earned a B.S.N. degree. Her three years of nursing school was worth less than two years of college credit, so it took her about three years to earn her degree. (She didn't attend college full-time)
I don't know what your experience is, and why it leads you believe that nurses are intellectually challenged, but it's obvious you have not met nurses who are in that line because they want to be nurses.
In my experience, even excluding my experience in being married to a nurse, most nurses are in this field because they wanted to be nurses from knee-high up. I should mention that I spent my working life in the medical sales field calling on surgeons and operating room nurses.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Richard Yates - 02 Jan 2009 00:34 GMT >> Becoming a Registered Nurse requires only two or three years beyond >> high school. My experience is that those who take that route tend to [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > from knee-high up. I should mention that I spent my working life in > the medical sales field calling on surgeons and operating room nurses. Lest you think I was disparaging all nurses, *both* of my parents were RNs. My mother got her BSN and then, decades later, a Masters' from Columbia. She was president of the Ameican College of Nurse-Midwives [ http://www.yatesguitar.com/Sue_Yates/ ]. My father earned a BSN from Columbia and a Masters' from Penn and taught nursing for thirty years. They were both of superior intellect and education. I tried to be careful with my wording, specifically by using "tend to." I worked in a hospital for thirty years, saw many classes of nursing students pass through as part of their training, and indirectly oversaw some of their supervision. The *trend* was clear. Your wife became a nurse when the requirements were tougher than they seem to be these days. RY
tony cooper - 02 Jan 2009 03:36 GMT >>> Becoming a Registered Nurse requires only two or three years beyond >>> high school. My experience is that those who take that route tend to [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >Lest you think I was disparaging all nurses, I did, and I still do.
>*both* of my parents were RNs. >My mother got her BSN and then, decades later, a Masters' from Columbia. She [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >clear. Your wife became a nurse when the requirements were tougher than they >seem to be these days. RY I think there are still people who go into nursing because that is their choice of profession and not because they are intellectually deficient.
Just out of curiosity, what field do you think females that made above-average grades in high school and have intellectual resources, go into? Larry Summers says they don't do well in the sciences, so what's left?
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Richard Yates - 02 Jan 2009 04:02 GMT >>>> Becoming a Registered Nurse requires only two or three years beyond >>>> high school. My experience is that those who take that route tend [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > I did, and I still do. Then I do not think that you are reading very carefully.
>> *both* of my parents were RNs. >> My mother got her BSN and then, decades later, a Masters' from [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > their choice of profession and not because they are intellectually > deficient. Well, certainly there are, and many of them are very intelligent. I saw those, too. I did not say that all the members of any group were "intellectually deficient." I described a tendency in the average of a group. I don't think that is disparaging.
> Just out of curiosity, what field do you think females that made > above-average grades in high school and have intellectual resources, > go into? I don't know. I don't have as much of a sample to go on as I did observing nursing students.
tony cooper - 02 Jan 2009 05:52 GMT >>>>> Becoming a Registered Nurse requires only two or three years beyond >>>>> high school. My experience is that those who take that route tend [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >Then I do not think that you are reading very carefully. I read very carefully. Your original post was ill-considered and disparaging of entire group of very professional people. You can waffle around with comments about tendencies and concessions to some being very intelligent, but your post was flat-out a disparaging broad brush.
Run it by your parents if they are still with you and see how they view it.
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Richard Yates - 02 Jan 2009 14:20 GMT >>>>>> Becoming a Registered Nurse requires only two or three years >>>>>> beyond high school. My experience is that those who take that [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > I read very carefully. Your original post was ill-considered and > disparaging of entire group of very professional people. You really are not thinking this through and have not responded at all to my attempts to explain better. I wrote about the group of high school students that "take that route" and what I believe to be their average abilities compared to those who go to four year colleges. That may be correct or it may not - you offer no evidence that it is not - but it is not disparaging of those that *complete* the process. There is more competition than ever for spots in nursing training programs and a high percentage are not accepted or drop out. The ratio of pay to required years of preparation is attractive to high school students so many try to "take that route" who eventually show that they are not sufficiently capable.
> You can > waffle around with comments about tendencies and concessions to some [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Run it by your parents if they are still with you and see how they > view it. If you read as carefully as you say, you would have checked the link I provided to the memorial page for my mother, who died three years ago. She was very aware of the nursing shortage and the resulting proliferation of nursing "trade schools" that do not provide the well-rounded education that those of her generation received.
tony cooper - 02 Jan 2009 17:52 GMT You wrote:
>>>>>>> Becoming a Registered Nurse requires only two or three years >>>>>>> beyond high school. My experience is that those who take that >>>>>>> route tend to be the ones with only average grades in school >>>>>>> that do not have the aptitude or intellectual resources to go to >>>>>>> college. I replied:
>>>>>> I will try and remain fair and balanced in this reply. My wife >>>>>> is a nurse, and not a person without the aptitude or intellectual >>>>>> resources to go to college. She was a straight-A student in high >>>>>> school. I'm snipping most of both of our remarks. Not to misrepresent anything, though...just to reduce this to the basics. All of the remarks remain in the thread view.
RY: Lest you think I was disparaging all nurses,
TC: I did, and I still do.
RY: Then I do not think that you are reading very carefully.
TC: I read very carefully. Your original post was ill-considered and disparaging of entire group of very professional people.
RY: You really are not thinking this through and have not responded at all to my attempts to explain better.
Don't be condescending. I'm quite capable of thinking this through. Your original post was ill-considered and disparaging. You added comments later that back-pedaled, but they don't change what was originally written.
There are high school students who are too intellectually deficient to enter any field after high school. There always have been. But, your post singled out nursing as a landing spot for these students. That, to me, is an objectionable statement.
Further, you identified the Registered Nurse program as the route. Not nursing aides, LPNs, or the other tiers of nursing that require less qualification and training.
>I wrote about the group of high school students >that "take that route" and what I believe to be their average abilities >compared to those who go to four year colleges. You've made the assumption that a student who opts for a two-year or three-year program that is not a university affiliated program is intellectually inferior. I strongly disagree with this.
>That may be correct or it may not - you offer no evidence that it is not Nor do you offer evidence that the reason for opting for R.N. status instead of B.S.N. status is based on intellectual capability.
>> You can >> waffle around with comments about tendencies and concessions to some [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >If you read as carefully as you say, you would have checked the link I >provided to the memorial page for my mother, No, I didn't read the link. I'm not interested. I know, without reading the link, that there are exceptionally qualified nurses. I don't need to be pointed to specific instances.
>who died three years ago. She >was very aware of the nursing shortage and the resulting proliferation of >nursing "trade schools" that do not provide the well-rounded education that >those of her generation received. Nursing *is* a trade. It requires specialized training and skills development based on practical experience. The two-year and three-year non-degree programs can provide more of this than the four-year academic programs. The two-year and three-year programs provide more patient care involvement than the four-year programs. A student in a four-year program spends less time in direct nursing than a student in a two-year program. The four-year program doesn't divide the years into two in the classroom and two on the floors.
The well-rounded education provided by the university degree programs are to the advantage of the student because they better prepare the student for their non-nursing life, but their non-nursing academic courses don't contribute to their skills as a nurse.
Had my daughter or son chosen to enter nursing, I would have encouraged them to go for a B.S.N. I don't think it would have made either a better nurse, but socially and economically it would have been to their advantage.
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Richard Yates - 02 Jan 2009 04:08 GMT > Just out of curiosity, what field do you think females that made > above-average grades in high school and have intellectual resources, > go into? Larry Summers says they don't do well in the sciences, so > what's left? I was talking about who becomes nurses. How did that subject get limited to females? Seems like a different thread. Bob would probably like a new subject line!
tony cooper - 02 Jan 2009 05:55 GMT >> Just out of curiosity, what field do you think females that made >> above-average grades in high school and have intellectual resources, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >females? Seems like a different thread. Bob would probably like a new >subject line! Just checking to see how deep your biases go.
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Richard Yates - 02 Jan 2009 14:22 GMT >>> Just out of curiosity, what field do you think females that made >>> above-average grades in high school and have intellectual resources, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > Just checking to see how deep your biases go. Such "gotcha" tactics are beneath you.
Lew - 03 Jan 2009 04:20 GMT > I think there are still people who go into nursing because that is > their choice of profession and not because they are intellectually > deficient. I have known many nursing students, and many nurses, and not a one of them was stupid. They also, in my limited experienced, were possessed of a great deal more empathy than any pre-med or medical student or doctor I've met, save one or two.
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Nick - 03 Jan 2009 08:58 GMT >> I think there are still people who go into nursing because that is >> their choice of profession and not because they are intellectually [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of a great deal more empathy than any pre-med or medical student or > doctor I've met, save one or two. To be fair, Richard said "lacking the aptitude, or intellectual resources to go to college", not "mentally deficient". It probably wasn't, even so, the best way of expressing his point, but it wasn't as extreme as it's being painted.
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Wood Avens - 02 Jan 2009 10:27 GMT >> One of the UK scales, the NS-SEC (National Statistics Socio-Economic >> Classifications), which is used for the UK's ten-year census, looks [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >else -- I suppose those classifications could be accurate. Are there >other "groupings" based on things other than pay? I don't think either of these classification systems are just about pay. The second one (the ABC1 scale), the advertisers' and market researchers' scale, groups people (in theory) according to the kinds of newspapers and periodicals they read and the products they buy, to enable the advertisers to buy space in what they judge is the appropriate place for the product they want to sell. The classifications are so broad as to be almost meaningless to my eye, but I assume they work, for a given value of "work", or the advertisers would stop using them.
Neither of the scales has a direct relationship to social class, depending on how that's defined, or to status, which is another different concept again. Obama called teachers working class; he doesn't mention nurses. Would you (Maria, or other US people) say that both teachers and nurses are working class? And if so, what does that mean?
(Here in the UK, "working class" is now rather old-fashioned, but when it's used it's usually fairly neutral. Borrowing from the advertisers' scale, "C2" is the current derogatory term, meaning "people lower down the social scale than me, whose taste in furnishings, clothes and food is a legitimate subject for mockery".)
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Sara Lorimer - 02 Jan 2009 14:49 GMT > Obama called teachers working class; he > doesn't mention nurses. Would you (Maria, or other US people) say > that both teachers and nurses are working class? I don't know if I would use it myself. I think I'd say "middle class," but it's difficult to find anyone who _isn't_ middle class.
> And if so, what does > that mean? Yeah, that's why I don't usually use it.
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Pat Durkin - 02 Jan 2009 15:22 GMT >> Obama called teachers working class; he >> doesn't mention nurses. Would you (Maria, or other US people) say [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Yeah, that's why I don't usually use it. I agree it (middle class) is a basically meaningless and rather political term, being so broad as to include just about everyone. "Working class", too, is rather broad, but we have the sub-groups showing some variation in "clean" or "dirty" work, although that doesn't really give an idea of money earned*.
White-collar and blue-collar help to define workers, with the sex-differentiated "pink-collar" obsolescing, (I think). I hear some now trying to push another politically-aware kind of word, dealing with the environment and recycling optimism in this era of recession: "green-collar".
*Still, there remains a snobbish stereotyping in that people judge one's home life and living style based on the kind of work one does. You know. . .the Molly Brown idea.
Wood Avens - 02 Jan 2009 15:29 GMT >*Still, there remains a snobbish stereotyping in that people judge one's >home life and living style based on the kind of work one does. You >know. . .the Molly Brown idea. Molly Brown? Is that Leftpondian? It doesn't ring any bells with me (well, apart from unsinkability, and that doesn't seem to fit the context).
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Pat Durkin - 02 Jan 2009 15:46 GMT >> *Still, there remains a snobbish stereotyping in that people judge >> one's home life and living style based on the kind of work one does. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (well, apart from unsinkability, and that doesn't seem to fit the > context). Nouveau richesse, you see. Her husband and she were ignorant residents in a mining community who struck it rich, but had to "overcompensate" by spending it all on huge mansions, trying to be "in" with the upper classes in Europe and the US. Some called their purchases "bad taste". But one wonders what the "old rich" spent their wealth on. Apparently Molly and Johnny should have stayed in their mountain cabin and continued to live the life of poverty-stricken miners. Or they should have hired "lifestyle consultants" to teach them what it was good taste to spend their money on, rather than just enjoying their luck.
Robin Bignall - 02 Jan 2009 22:33 GMT >>> *Still, there remains a snobbish stereotyping in that people judge >>> one's home life and living style based on the kind of work one does. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >have hired "lifestyle consultants" to teach them what it was good taste >to spend their money on, rather than just enjoying their luck. You used to read about that sort of thing back in the 1950s, when people won the maximum (75,000 UKP) on the football pools, bought a mansion in some exclusive area and wondered why nobody would talk to them. Now, those who make the news are the people who win several million on the lottery, and who boast that they're going to continue street-sweeping, or supermarket-checkouting, or whatever. "I'm not going to let it change my life."
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 02 Jan 2009 17:23 GMT > >> Obama called teachers working class; he > >> doesn't mention nurses. Would you (Maria, or other US people) say [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I agree it (middle class) is a basically meaningless and rather > political term, being so broad as to include just about everyone. I think that in politics, it often has a definite meaning: working (or a student or retired), rather than getting government assistance such as Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (which I had to look up), food stamps, subsidized housing, and Medicaid. Of course the boundaries are still fuzzy.
It can also mean what should be called "middle-income", as in "an unfair tax burden on the middle class". I agree that relatively few people, even among those who show off their wealth, will admit that their income is above the "middle".
> "Working class", too, is rather broad, but we have the sub-groups > showing some variation in "clean" or "dirty" work, although that doesn't > really give an idea of money earned*. ...
To the extent that we have a "working class", I think the main distinction among the employed is from "professionals"--which leads to the interesting question of where teachers and nurses fit in.
-- Jerry Friedman
Wood Avens - 02 Jan 2009 18:08 GMT >To the extent that we have a "working class", I think the main >distinction among the employed is from "professionals"--which leads to >the interesting question of where teachers and nurses fit in. I realise, thinking about it, that I'd tend to call teachers, as a group, "middle class", but that where I placed nurses would depend on all sorts of other factors -- that is, some nurses would be middle class and some working class, depending, among other things, on what in the UK we might call "lifestyle" but which I'd now hesitate to use in an international forum. This may be just my own idiosyncratic take on it, though, and other Brits may disagree.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 02 Jan 2009 18:40 GMT >>To the extent that we have a "working class", I think the main >>distinction among the employed is from "professionals"--which leads to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >in an international forum. This may be just my own idiosyncratic take >on it, though, and other Brits may disagree. This Brit is inclined to agree.
I'm not sure how today I would draw a dividing line between working class and middle class in the UK. A few decades ago one could start by saying that the working class were wage-earners and the middle class were salary-earners. There was a difference in "way of life" and social attitudes.
When, during the US presidential election campaign, I heard Joe the Plumber being described as middle class I was initially a bit startled.
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Robin Bignall - 02 Jan 2009 22:48 GMT >>>To the extent that we have a "working class", I think the main >>>distinction among the employed is from "professionals"--which leads to [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >When, during the US presidential election campaign, I heard Joe the Plumber >being described as middle class I was initially a bit startled. Again, I think that classness is more a state of mind and way of living than it is necessarily determined by income or education (or the lack of). During my seven years in Hoddesdon I've met three people who never learned to read or write, possibly because of dyslexia, I don't know. Their educational attainments are zero by any official standard but they're all civilised people. One runs a successful business (his assistant does the books), the others are retired and depend on their wives to deal with correspondence and forms. OTOH one can go to large department stores and see Pat's nouveaux riche in action, arrogant and loud, little more than moneyed yobs.
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Mike M - 06 Jan 2009 15:43 GMT > I realise, thinking about it, that I'd tend to call teachers, as a > group, "middle class", but that where I placed nurses would depend on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in an international forum. This may be just my own idiosyncratic take > on it, though, and other Brits may disagree. I agree with you.
My Dear Old Mother would been unequivocal on this issue: teachers for her fell into two categories: (1) Primary school teachers (who should be female, and effectively classless) and (2) Grammar school teachers (who should be male - quite definitely middle class, to be respected, and indeed revered).
Nurses on the other hand should be female (again, possibly classless, but effectively working class), as opposed to doctors, (male, middle- class and godlike).
Mike M
Robert Bannister - 06 Jan 2009 23:32 GMT >> I realise, thinking about it, that I'd tend to call teachers, as a >> group, "middle class", but that where I placed nurses would depend on [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > but effectively working class), as opposed to doctors, (male, middle- > class and godlike). I had more the Florence Nightingale image in my mind and thought of nurses as rather scary, upper middle class women until I actually went to hospital and discovered that (at that time in England) they were all Irish or West Indian.
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Chuck Riggs - 07 Jan 2009 10:34 GMT >>> I realise, thinking about it, that I'd tend to call teachers, as a >>> group, "middle class", but that where I placed nurses would depend on [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >to hospital and discovered that (at that time in England) they were all >Irish or West Indian. While a doctor might fall into the upper middle class category if experienced, most nurses are lower middle class, at best, as I see them.
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Regards,
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Wood Avens - 03 Jan 2009 17:04 GMT >> I agree it (middle class) is a basically meaningless and rather >> political term, being so broad as to include just about everyone. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >distinction among the employed is from "professionals"--which leads to >the interesting question of where teachers and nurses fit in. OK, I thought I was getting the picture, but I've now moved on to his second book ("The Audacity of Hope"). So here's Obama again:
"Full employment allowed unionized factory workers to move into the middle class, support a family on a single income, and enjoy the stability of health and retirement security."
That hardly means that factory work has become a profession. Are we talking culture, aspiration, sending the kids to college, that sort of thing?
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tony cooper - 03 Jan 2009 18:40 GMT >>> I agree it (middle class) is a basically meaningless and rather >>> political term, being so broad as to include just about everyone. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >talking culture, aspiration, sending the kids to college, that sort of >thing? Economics, in my view. The "middle class", in the US, is an economic range and not a cultural or social range. If you are above poor, but not rich, you are middle class. You are middle class whether or not you visit museums, drink wine from bottles with screw-on caps, or put out place cards when you host candlelight dinners.
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Mike Page - 05 Jan 2009 21:43 GMT ...> thing?
> Economics, in my view. The "middle class", in the US, is an economic > range and not a cultural or social range. If you are above poor, but > not rich, you are middle class. You are middle class whether or not > you visit museums, drink wine from bottles with screw-on caps, or put > out place cards when you host candlelight dinners. Are screw caps still a marker of low quality wine in the US? In the UK some quite decent stuff now comes in screw cap bottles. One wouldn't be shy of taking a screw cap to a dinner party if the wine inside was acceptable.
I'm all for it - I can re-use them for bottling the the annual vintage of Chateau Page, which I did this weekend. It's quite fruity with good acidity but I need to get more tannin into the wine next year. Does anyone have any suggestions short of buying a very small new French oak cask?
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tony cooper - 05 Jan 2009 22:17 GMT >...> thing? >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >shy of taking a screw cap to a dinner party if the wine inside was >acceptable. Yes. Quite often someone will write an article in the newspaper or in a magazine that lists some very acceptable screw-capped wines, but the perception is still there that screw-cap = cheap wine. The decision about the acceptability of the contents is made visually.
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Robert Bannister - 05 Jan 2009 22:51 GMT > ...> thing? >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > shy of taking a screw cap to a dinner party if the wine inside was > acceptable. Funny, isn't it? When screw caps first appeared, I totally despised them. Now, on the odd occasion when I find I need to dig the corkscrew out, I feel mildly irritated.
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Don Aitken - 06 Jan 2009 01:59 GMT >> ...> thing? >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >them. Now, on the odd occasion when I find I need to dig the corkscrew >out, I feel mildly irritated. The thing that irritates me is that wine supplied in screw-top bottles still has the plastic masquerading as metal foil which once served to protect the cork. You didn't need to remove it, but could just poke a corkscrew through it. Now it serves no purpose at all, but has to be removed before you can get at the wine.
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tyngewick.gawcott@ntlworld.com - 06 Jan 2009 10:54 GMT > On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:51:17 +0900, Robert Bannister > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > corkscrew through it. Now it serves no purpose at all, but has to be > removed before you can get at the wine. Really? Where do you buy your wine? The stuff I get from supermarkets doesn't usually have a 'foil'. I suppose it might prevent 'grazing' by pensioners to some extent.
-- TG
LFS - 06 Jan 2009 11:12 GMT >> On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:51:17 +0900, Robert Bannister >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > doesn't usually have a 'foil'. I suppose it might prevent 'grazing' by > pensioners to some extent. We have had a couple of bottles lately with foil over screw caps, from Tesco, I think.
Are pensioners more prone to this 'grazing' than younger people? I think you're being ageist.
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Don Aitken - 06 Jan 2009 13:36 GMT >>> On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:51:17 +0900, Robert Bannister >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >We have had a couple of bottles lately with foil over screw caps, from >Tesco, I think. Mine comes from Sainsburys, where I think all the bottles have it.
>Are pensioners more prone to this 'grazing' than younger people? I think >you're being ageist. I think that the sight of people of any age swigging from bottles off the shelves would very rapidly attract a great deal of attention in any supermarket I know.
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Amethyst Deceiver - 06 Jan 2009 14:23 GMT > >> Really? Where do you buy your wine? The stuff I get from supermarkets > >> doesn't usually have a 'foil'. I suppose it might prevent 'grazing' by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > Mine comes from Sainsburys, where I think all the bottles have it. A good 20 years ago we were sitting at home ready for dinner, and my flatmate was having a hellish time opening the wine because the cork just wouldn't come out. After about 5 minutes of pulling, she removed the corkscrew and attacked the foil cover, to discover that she was holding a screwcap bottle.
Hilarity ensued.
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R H Draney - 06 Jan 2009 18:52 GMT Amethyst Deceiver filted:
>A good 20 years ago we were sitting at home ready for dinner, and my >flatmate was having a hellish time opening the wine because the cork [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Hilarity ensued. I have a wristwatch for her...I once spent the better part of a morning trying to unscrew the back with the special tool for unscrewing wristwatch-backs, only to discover that it was a "pop-in" back with indentations added "for show"....r
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Nick - 06 Jan 2009 19:30 GMT > Amethyst Deceiver filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to unscrew the back with the special tool for unscrewing wristwatch-backs, only > to discover that it was a "pop-in" back with indentations added "for show"....r I once, on a cold, wet and dark night, had a lot of trouble unscrewing the plastic nuts moulded into the plastic cover on the wheel of my car that had a flat tyre. Oh how I praised the designer.
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Robin Bignall - 06 Jan 2009 22:04 GMT >> Amethyst Deceiver filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >the plastic nuts moulded into the plastic cover on the wheel of my car >that had a flat tyre. Oh how I praised the designer. I had those on a Nissan Micra, and, to prevent them from flying off or being stolen, they were fastened on with strong plastic garden ties that once tightened, needed a knife or clippers to cut them off. Guess what the car's tool kit didn't have.
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tyngewick.gawcott@ntlworld.com - 06 Jan 2009 16:17 GMT > tyngewick.gawc...@ntlworld.com wrote: > >> On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:51:17 +0900, Robert Bannister [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Are pensioners more prone to this 'grazing' than younger people? I think > you're being ageist. I think there is some evidence that suggests that the bus pass generation is more prone to 'grazing'.
1) They have more time for mooching about the aisles and may do it as a way of keeping warm 2) They are poorer 3) Teenagers are more likely to favour alcopops 4) Teenagers are more likely to shoplift the whole bottle and do a runner if challenged. Older persons are less likely to be able to outrun the security guards. 5) Older persons are less likely to be prosecuted if caught. Headlines of the nature 'Tesco prosecutes pensioner over mouthful of wine' are not good publicity. 6) I dimly remember a tv programme which looked at grazing and suggested that it was mainly indulged in by the older person. 7) Teenagers are more likely to attract the attention of store security.
You may come to it yet, as may we all.
-- TG
Wood Avens - 06 Jan 2009 18:36 GMT >> tyngewick.gawc...@ntlworld.com wrote:
>> > Really? Where do you buy your wine? The stuff I get from supermarkets >> > doesn't usually have a 'foil'. I suppose it might prevent 'grazing' by [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >You may come to it yet, as may we all. Gosh. I'd never even thought of it, until now ....
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James Silverton - 06 Jan 2009 18:44 GMT Wood wrote on Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:36:46 +0000:
.
>> I think there is some evidence that suggests that the bus >> pass generation is more prone to 'grazing'. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> You may come to it yet, as may we all.
> Gosh. I'd never even thought of it, until now .... This elderly grazing idea is really news to me. I even feel guilty when I eat one grape to test for sweetness.
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Mike Lyle - 06 Jan 2009 22:00 GMT > Wood wrote on Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:36:46 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > This elderly grazing idea is really news to me. I even feel guilty > when I eat one grape to test for sweetness. At least when it comes to bottles of booze, it sounds like pretty good bollocks to me. I'm open to evidence to the contrary, of course, if our youthfully honest friend has some. "I think there is some evidence that suggests..." is a rather cautious case for the prosecution, m'lud.
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LFS - 06 Jan 2009 22:36 GMT >> Wood wrote on Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:36:46 +0000: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > youthfully honest friend has some. "I think there is some evidence that > suggests..." is a rather cautious case for the prosecution, m'lud. Yes, I think Mr Gawcott (or should that be Sir Tyngewick? I've forgotten) is indulging in some fanciful conjecture but I must confess to the stirrings of temptation to experiment: it's possible that batty old ladies might be treated a little more leniently.
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Mike Page - 08 Jan 2009 22:37 GMT >>> Wood wrote on Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:36:46 +0000: >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > to the stirrings of temptation to experiment: it's possible that batty > old ladies might be treated a little more leniently. Are you going to work on the bol role for you repertoire?[1] I imagine it would afford immense potential for satisfaction and amusement.
[1] I briefly conjectured whether you might be doing so already, but decided that would be ridiculous.
 Signature Mike Page Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email.
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 06 Jan 2009 19:13 GMT >I think there is some evidence that suggests that the bus pass >generation is more prone to 'grazing'. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >7) Teenagers are more likely to attract the attention of store >security. The only "grazing" I've seen in a supermarket could perhaps be better called "wolfing". Parent takes something edible of a shelf, a bar of chocolate perhaps, and hands it to small child. Small child gets stuck in. At the checkout parent hands over the empty wrapper to have the barcode scanned.
>You may come to it yet, as may we all.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
R H Draney - 06 Jan 2009 20:59 GMT BrE filted:
>The only "grazing" I've seen in a supermarket could perhaps be better called >"wolfing". Parent takes something edible of a shelf, a bar of chocolate >perhaps, and hands it to small child. Small child gets stuck in. At the >checkout parent hands over the empty wrapper to have the barcode scanned. Hang around the bulk food bins in the produce section...you'll see plenty....r
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the Omrud - 06 Jan 2009 22:33 GMT >> I think there is some evidence that suggests that the bus pass >> generation is more prone to 'grazing'. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > perhaps, and hands it to small child. Small child gets stuck in. At the > checkout parent hands over the empty wrapper to have the barcode scanned. French parents routinely give the child in the trolley one end of a baguette to chew while parent is shopping.
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Robert Bannister - 06 Jan 2009 23:38 GMT > The only "grazing" I've seen in a supermarket could perhaps be better called > "wolfing". Parent takes something edible of a shelf, a bar of chocolate > perhaps, and hands it to small child. Small child gets stuck in. At the > checkout parent hands over the empty wrapper to have the barcode scanned. I haven't seen the parent handing the loot to the child. Usually, the child simply grabs it and eats it.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister - 06 Jan 2009 23:34 GMT >>> ...> thing? >>>> Economics, in my view. The "middle class", in the US, is an economic [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > corkscrew through it. Now it serves no purpose at all, but has to be > removed before you can get at the wine. I've only come across a couple of brands like that. However, I agree: they are very annoying.
 Signature Rob Bannister
R H Draney - 07 Jan 2009 03:14 GMT Robert Bannister filted:
>>> Funny, isn't it? When screw caps first appeared, I totally despised >>> them. Now, on the odd occasion when I find I need to dig the corkscrew [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I've only come across a couple of brands like that. However, I agree: >they are very annoying. I wonder if the vintners would be interested in the sort of closure being used by Ramune:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramune
I had a cashier, a teenage girl, tell me she doesn't like the stuff because she can't open the bottles by herself....r
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Mike Lyle - 07 Jan 2009 19:36 GMT [...]
> I wonder if the vintners would be interested in the sort of closure > being used by Ramune: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I had a cashier, a teenage girl, tell me she doesn't like the stuff > because she can't open the bottles by herself....r Nothing new under the sun, eh? That was the standard fizzy-drink closure in Britain about a hundred years ago. Kids, I gather, had to make the agonizing choice between returning the empty bottle for the deposit money, or smashing it for the marble.
I've never seen one in action, of course, but it does seem like a very unreliable seal.
 Signature Mike.
Mike M - 08 Jan 2009 15:39 GMT > I wonder if the vintners would be interested in the sort of closure being used > by Ramune: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramune ObAUE (sort of): "The word 'ramune' is derived phonetically from the English 'lemonade'."
Mike M
Roland Hutchinson - 07 Jan 2009 04:37 GMT >>>> ...> thing? >>>>> Economics, in my view. The "middle class", in the US, is an economic [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I've only come across a couple of brands like that. However, I agree: > they are very annoying. Am I to understand you lot were in the habit of plunging straight through the foil rather than carefully trimming it back to avoid contaminating the wine with lead (back when the foil was in fact lead)?
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Robert Bannister - 07 Jan 2009 22:38 GMT >>>>> ...> thing? >>>>>> Economics, in my view. The "middle class", in the US, is an economic [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > the foil rather than carefully trimming it back to avoid contaminating the > wine with lead (back when the foil was in fact lead)? Not me, but there are some brands that use a hard plastic that is almost impossible to remove without pulling the cork out first. The old lead coverings, though scary, were at least easier to get off.
Then there are the bottles that have a different kind of cork that (presumably) is meant to be removed by hand by twisting - they have a larger, flat top which is usually covered in something hard and which can cause great consternation when you attempt to pierce it with a corkscrew.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Mike Lyle - 07 Jan 2009 23:19 GMT [...]
>> Am I to understand you lot were in the habit of plunging straight >> through the foil rather than carefully trimming it back to avoid [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > can cause great consternation when you attempt to pierce it with a > corkscrew. I imagine Roland was joking about the lead contamination. But in my experience those hard-topped corks are only used for bottles which are likely to be kept: fortified wines and spirits don't have to be drunk all in one go, while unfortified wines will start going off once air is let in. Conversely, any fortified wine is likely to have a re-usable cork or a screw cap, so you shouldn't consider the corkscrew till you've taken off the capsule.
 Signature Mike.
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 08 Jan 2009 00:03 GMT >[...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >cork or a screw cap, so you shouldn't consider the corkscrew till you've >taken off the capsule. Dare I mention the Vacu Vin Vacuum Wine Saver? http://www.vacuvin.nl/Vacuum_Wine_Saver_215.html
Bung bung in the top of bottle. Fit pump and pump air out.
As it says, this is "Not for sparkling wines".
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
HVS - 08 Jan 2009 17:49 GMT On 08 Jan 2009, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote
> Dare I mention the Vacu Vin Vacuum Wine Saver? > http://www.vacuvin.nl/Vacuum_Wine_Saver_215.html > > Bung bung in the top of bottle. Fit pump and pump air out. We have one of those; it works fine, but my wife and I find very few occasions to use it.
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Wood Avens - 08 Jan 2009 18:56 GMT >On 08 Jan 2009, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >We have one of those; it works fine, but my wife and I find very few >occasions to use it. Ditto is this neck of the woods, but we find it's handy if one of us is away.
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the Omrud - 08 Jan 2009 19:11 GMT >> On 08 Jan 2009, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Ditto is this neck of the woods, but we find it's handy if one of us > is away. Is this filthy talk suitable for the public Usenet?
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 08 Jan 2009 20:16 GMT >>> On 08 Jan 2009, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Is this filthy talk suitable for the public Usenet? There's worse than that. Because of prolonged but temporary ill-health my ability to drink alcohol is limited. So as to ensure it stays in drinkable coindition my supply of wine is in <mumbles as quietly as possible> a-bag-in-a-box.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
HVS - 08 Jan 2009 20:45 GMT On 08 Jan 2009, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote
>>>> On 08 Jan 2009, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ensure it stays in drinkable coindition my supply of wine is in > <mumbles as quietly as possible> a-bag-in-a-box. I wouldn't mumble that; there's a lot of good, everyday quaffing stuff in the boxes.
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Skitt - 08 Jan 2009 21:26 GMT >> [...] Because of prolonged but temporary >> ill-health my ability to drink alcohol is limited. So as to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I wouldn't mumble that; there's a lot of good, everyday quaffing > stuff in the boxes. It was the quaffing of that stuff every day that did in my previous wife, just before she turned fifty.
 Signature Skitt (AmE) stopped being a wino in his twenties
Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 00:25 GMT > [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I imagine Roland was joking about the lead contamination. To the contrary, I was taught to carefully remove the lead foil and wipe around the opening of the bottle to insure that no trace of the foil might remain that could be inadvertently washed into the wine glass when pouring.
> But in my > experience those hard-topped corks are only used for bottles which are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cork or a screw cap, so you shouldn't consider the corkscrew till you've > taken off the capsule. My experience matches this.
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Mike Lyle - 08 Jan 2009 17:41 GMT >> [...] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > foil might remain that could be inadvertently washed into the wine > glass when pouring. [...]
Gosh! Not the highest risk associated with wine-drinking, I'd have thought, but a new terror to add to the list of life-hazards. I do wipe round the top if it looks a bit grubby, but had never considered lead poisoning. Capsules are now usually plastic or aluminium, of course.
Does my memory play me false again, or did some wineroons formerly sweeten dodgy vintages with lead arsenide or some such scary scion of the plumbary family?
 Signature Mike.
Garrett Wollman - 08 Jan 2009 18:12 GMT >Does my memory play me false again, or did some wineroons formerly >sweeten dodgy vintages with lead arsenide or some such scary scion of >the plumbary family? Lead acetate, formerly known as "sugar of lead".
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 18:50 GMT >>> [...] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > round the top if it looks a bit grubby, but had never considered lead > poisoning. I suppose it was in fact to remove general grubbiness as well as any bits of foil that might be made to adhere by the general grubbiness.
> Capsules are now usually plastic or aluminium, of course. > > Does my memory play me false again, or did some wineroons formerly > sweeten dodgy vintages with lead arsenide or some such scary scion of > the plumbary family? It doesn't and they did, AFIK, IIRC, IIANVMM, IANAL, etc. Not arsenide, but acetate, however:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_of_lead
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Mike Page - 08 Jan 2009 22:30 GMT ...
> Gosh! Not the highest risk associated with wine-drinking, I'd have > thought, but a new terror to add to the list of life-hazards. I do wipe > round the top if it looks a bit grubby, but had never considered lead > poisoning. Capsules are now usually plastic or aluminium, of course. A Screwpull foil cutter is a useful investment and removes the top of the capsule cleanly and with a minimum of fuss.
 Signature Mike Page Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email.
Robin Bignall - 08 Jan 2009 21:57 GMT >[...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >cork or a screw cap, so you shouldn't consider the corkscrew till you've >taken off the capsule. When down in the Perigord area of France I came across Marc (a rough, second distillation of brandy from grape-pulp) sold in bottles with corks that needed a corkscrew. The stuff was rough enough to make your head spin, but a hell of a lot cheaper than Armangac.
 Signature Robin (BrE) Herts, England
Mike Page - 08 Jan 2009 22:16 GMT > [...] >>> Am I to understand you lot were in the habit of plunging straight [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > cork or a screw cap, so you shouldn't consider the corkscrew till you've > taken off the capsule. Except of course your vintage ports and sherries[1], which have a driven cork that is covered with a wax disk to prevent air getting in and the wine getting out.
One definition of gentleman is someone who draws the cork from a bottle of fine port, sniffs it to make sure the wine is good, then throws the cork on the fire.
[1] Harveys of Bristol used to produce a limited quantity of vintage sherry (including Bristol Cream) that was intended for laying down. I don't know whether they or anyone else still does. I still have one treasured bottle.
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Mike Lyle - 08 Jan 2009 22:58 GMT [...]
> [1] Harveys of Bristol used to produce a limited quantity of vintage > sherry (including Bristol Cream) that was intended for laying down. I > don't know whether they or anyone else still does. I still have one > treasured bottle. I thought "vintage sherry" was meaningless, owing to the solera system. What was their justification?
 Signature Mike.
Mike Page - 08 Jan 2009 23:06 GMT > [...] >> [1] Harveys of Bristol used to produce a limited quantity of vintage [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I thought "vintage sherry" was meaningless, owing to the solera system. > What was their justification? Presumably referring to the year of bottling. I've been to a tasting of these things. There are differences from year to year.
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Robert Bannister - 08 Jan 2009 23:22 GMT > [...] >>> Am I to understand you lot were in the habit of plunging straight [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > cork or a screw cap, so you shouldn't consider the corkscrew till you've > taken off the capsule. The bottles I think I mean are likely the bottles of Italian sparkling wine my garage man sometimes gives me at Christmas. Much to sweet for my taste, but you can't throw it away and my mother likes it. As I remember, they are unlabelled, so I assumed it was white wine to start with.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Richard Bollard - 09 Jan 2009 04:26 GMT [...]
>Not me, but there are some brands that use a hard plastic that is almost >impossible to remove without pulling the cork out first. The old lead >coverings, though scary, were at least easier to get off. I always found that the plastic sleeves came off easily if you don't try to break them up. Just wrap your hand around them and twist back and forth a few times, then they slide off in one piece.
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
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William - 09 Jan 2009 06:12 GMT > I always found that the plastic sleeves came off easily if you don't > try to break them up. Just wrap your hand around them and twist back > and forth a few times, then they slide off in one piece. And then, there's this: http://www.wine2laydown.com/shop/Details.cfm?ProdID=91&category=0
-- WH
Chuck Riggs - 06 Jan 2009 10:26 GMT >> ...> thing? >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >them. Now, on the odd occasion when I find I need to dig the corkscrew >out, I feel mildly irritated. For reasons I don't recall, there is a worldwide shortage of cork, driving up the price of cork stoppers for wine bottles. Even some of the quality wines, I have read, are now supplied in screw cap bottles.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
tyngewick.gawcott@ntlworld.com - 06 Jan 2009 10:57 GMT > On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:51:17 +0900, Robert Bannister > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > driving up the price of cork stoppers for wine bottles. Even some of > the quality wines, I have read, are now supplied in screw cap bottles. An acquaintance, who makes port and good table wine in Portugal, says he would use crown corks for both as being more reliable, but the market won't accept them, and of course that would be heresy in Portugal with its large cork oak industry.
-- TG
Roland Hutchinson - 06 Jan 2009 13:53 GMT >> On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:51:17 +0900, Robert Bannister >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > market won't accept them, and of course that would be heresy in > Portugal with its large cork oak industry. The problem is, as I understand it, that the Portuguese cork industry is no longer able to keep up with demand. There's an enormous lead time between planting a cork oak and harvesting cork, other demands for land, etc.
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tyngewick.gawcott@ntlworld.com - 06 Jan 2009 16:19 GMT > tyngewick.gawc...@ntlworld.com wrote: > >> On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:51:17 +0900, Robert Bannister [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > longer able to keep up with demand. There's an enormous lead time between > planting a cork oak and harvesting cork, other demands for land, etc. I wonder whether there is a shortage of cork. ISTR that overcapacity was a problem and some forests are being grubbed up.
Donna Richoux - 06 Jan 2009 16:31 GMT > > The problem is, as I understand it, that the Portuguese cork industry is no > > longer able to keep up with demand. There's an enormous lead time between > > planting a cork oak and harvesting cork, other demands for land, etc. > I wonder whether there is a shortage of cork. ISTR that overcapacity > was a problem and some forests are being grubbed up. A few weeks ago there was a lovely BBC documentary about the cork-growing region, how environmentally benign it is (wildflowers, gamboling animals, etc), how carefully and sustainably it is managed, how the cork industry has learned to prevent molds, etc. I didn't hear a word about a shortage of cork, in fact the fear was expressed that plastic and metal closures would cause the disuse and destruction of this landscape.
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Roland Hutchinson - 06 Jan 2009 16:55 GMT >> > The problem is, as I understand it, that the Portuguese cork industry >> > is no [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > plastic and metal closures would cause the disuse and destruction of > this landscape. We clearly need to repair to the nearest wine shop and investigate this matter thoroughly.
However, it does look like I may have gotten hold of the wrong end of this cork thing. Quoth Wikipedia (s.v. "cork"):
"Natural cork closures are used for about 80% of the 20 billion bottles of wine produced each year.[citation needed] After a decline in use as wine-stoppers due to the increase in the use of cheaper synthetic alternatives, cork wine-stoppers are making a comeback and currently represent approximately 60% of wine-stoppers today."
When Wikipedia and the BBC agree, it's got to be more than a rumor. (Never mind that Wikipedia doesn't agree with itself in the paragraph quoted. The gist is the thing!)
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tony cooper - 06 Jan 2009 15:02 GMT >>> ...> thing? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >driving up the price of cork stoppers for wine bottles. Even some of >the quality wines, I have read, are now supplied in screw cap bottles. The wine we purchase has stoppers made from some synthetic material that is not cork, but the stoppers are removed with a corkscrew.
I wonder if people sniff the screw-top or the synthetic cork.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Richard Bollard - 07 Jan 2009 00:43 GMT >>>> ...> thing? >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >I wonder if people sniff the screw-top or the synthetic cork. I taste the wine. Much more reliable.
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Amethyst Deceiver - 06 Jan 2009 14:10 GMT > ...> thing? > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > shy of taking a screw cap to a dinner party if the wine inside was > acceptable. Indeed. At the hotel we stayed at before Christmas we had a lovely bottle of red which was brought to the table and carefully (but with ceremony) unscrewed. It certainly wasn't a low quality wine.
> I'm all for it - I can re-use them for bottling the the annual vintage > of Chateau Page, which I did this weekend. It's quite fruity with good > acidity but I need to get more tannin into the wine next year. Does > anyone have any suggestions short of buying a very small new French oak > cask? The tea pot?
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Wood Avens - 06 Jan 2009 18:38 GMT >> I'm all for it - I can re-use them for bottling the the annual vintage >> of Chateau Page, which I did this weekend. It's quite fruity with good [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >The tea pot? Acorns?
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Mike Page - 06 Jan 2009 19:08 GMT >>> I'm all for it - I can re-use them for bottling the the annual vintage >>> of Chateau Page, which I did this weekend. It's quite fruity with good [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Acorns? Two brilliant ideas. I can try out a few drops of stewed tea in the current vintage. Haycorns I have in sufficient supply, but isn't there some kind of poison in them that the native americans used to leach out by steeping them in pits for days? Was that the tannin or are there other nasties in acorns that need to be got rid of?
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 06 Jan 2009 19:24 GMT >>>> I'm all for it - I can re-use them for bottling the the annual vintage >>>> of Chateau Page, which I did this weekend. It's quite fruity with good [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >by steeping them in pits for days? Was that the tannin or are there >other nasties in acorns that need to be got rid of? Thannin.
Various answers to the question "Are acorns poisonous?" http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061125163112AAep0dj
A veterinary view, "Acorns Can be Deadly": http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~forage/acorns/acorns.htm
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 06 Jan 2009 19:36 GMT >Thannin. Drop t' aitch.
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Nick - 06 Jan 2009 19:44 GMT > Various answers to the question "Are acorns poisonous?" > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061125163112AAep0dj > > A veterinary view, "Acorns Can be Deadly": > http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~forage/acorns/acorns.htm Tiggers like haycorns.
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Mike Page - 06 Jan 2009 20:59 GMT >> Various answers to the question "Are acorns poisonous?" >> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061125163112AAep0dj [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Tiggers like haycorns. No they don't. They only think they do until they try them.
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Mike Lyle - 06 Jan 2009 22:06 GMT >>> Various answers to the question "Are acorns poisonous?" >>> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061125163112AAep0dj [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > No they don't. They only think they do until they try them. Anyhow, they don't taste so good, and would presumably cause a starch haze. Put 'em through a pig and eat the pig with your wine.
 Signature Mike.
James Silverton - 06 Jan 2009 22:27 GMT Mike wrote on Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:59:31 +0000:
>>> Various answers to the question "Are acorns poisonous?" >>> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061125163112AAep0dj [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Tiggers like haycorns.
> No they don't. They only think they do until they try them. There are two classes of oak. One has ridiculously bitter acorns and the others are said to be edible. I'd have to be starving to eat the last.
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Mike Page - 08 Jan 2009 22:32 GMT > Mike wrote on Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:59:31 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > There are two classes of oak. One has ridiculously bitter acorns and the > others are said to be edible. I'd have to be starving to eat the last. All the references I've seen relate to American oaks. We have many and various species of oak over here. There may be a continuum of oaks and acorns.
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Robin Bignall - 06 Jan 2009 22:20 GMT >>>>> I'm all for it - I can re-use them for bottling the the annual vintage >>>>> of Chateau Page, which I did this weekend. It's quite fruity with good [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >A veterinary view, "Acorns Can be Deadly": >http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~forage/acorns/acorns.htm I thought I'd read that acorns were used during the war to make a sort of ersatz coffee. They're briefly mentioned in the film of le Carre's "The Russia House". I found the following as part of a thread in a forum, but without a named source.
<q> I seem to remember reading that they drank ersatz coffee made from acorns in Eastern Europe during the last war when there was a desperate shortage of food and people had to scavenge for whatever they could find. I believe the acorns are baked until hard and then ground up but I suspect the end result makes a very bitter "coffee" which is probably not very palatable. I'[m very curious, so If you're tempted to give it a try, do report back and let us know what it was like.
*** Me again! I was curious enough to enquire further and found this extract on a website which may be of interest:
The main problem in preparing acorns for human consumption is to get rid of the high levels of tannin, which they contain. This tannin is what has made the oak tree so valuable to leather workers, who used it to cure leather in ancient times. Tannin in the acorns and in the coral-like excretions on the limbs of the Boissieri variety. Tannin was also used as a base for paint and for medical purposes. If really hungry and lacking food, as happened during war years, bread and ersatz coffee can be made from acorns. How? First you peel them and put the kernels in a cloth bag, which can be left in a running stream for several days. Then you dry them in the sun, and can roast and grind some for a coffee-like beverage, and the rest you can grind into a flour from which you can make a crude bread". WendyS </q> http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Food-and-Drink/Question151257.html
"ACORN COFFEE Giliø kava
1 l (1 quart) acorns 1 l (1 quart) milk
Dry freshly picked acorns at room temperature for a couple of days. Shell and cook in milk until soft, about 45-60 minutes. Remove acorns from milk and blot dry, saute in a dry skillet until golden brown. Grind scorched acorns and store in a tight container. To make acorn coffee, take 1 part water, 2 parts sweet cream or milk. Place 3 teaspoons acorn coffee in boiling water, boil 2-3 minutes, whiten with milk or cream and add sugar to taste."
Also other traditional Lithuanian recipes on http://ausis.gf.vu.lt/eka/food/drinks.html
 Signature Robin (BrE) Herts, England
Mike Lyle - 06 Jan 2009 21:53 GMT [...]
> Are screw caps still a marker of low quality wine in the US? In the UK > some quite decent stuff now comes in screw cap bottles. One wouldn't > be shy of taking a screw cap to a dinner party if the wine inside was > acceptable. Quite right: the wine gurus have been agitating for screw caps for years now. Apparently not only for their convenience, but for their reliability. I'm not the man to ask if they're suitable for very long aging in bottle, though.
> I'm all for it - I can re-use them for bottling the the annual vintage > of Chateau Page, which I did this weekend. It's quite fruity with good > acidity but I need to get more tannin into the wine next year. Does > anyone have any suggestions short of buying a very small new French > oak cask? No good for a summer vintage, but come autumn, you could pick some ripe elderberries and freeze them. Judicious additions work very well in my experience. As I'm sure you know, though, too much elderberry results in a very high level of tannins, which means you have to mature the wine for longer--or knock out some of the tannins with protein finings, which is easy to misjudge.
I think pears have a lot of it in the skins, and I did make some good white country wine when I had a pear tree. There's always tea, of course, especially for white wines: brewed, not stewed. I find I've scribbled a note that while powdered grape tannin can be a bugger to dissolve, the tablets dissolve like fizzy vitamin tabs in hot syrup; so if you add sugar, that early stage is a good moment to add commercial tannin. I also find that in the old days some people used to use oak leaves, which seems logical; but I've no idea of the quantity.
 Signature Mike.
Narelle - 07 Jan 2009 21:47 GMT > [...] >> Are screw caps still a marker of low quality wine in the US? In the UK [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > reliability. I'm not the man to ask if they're suitable for very long > aging in bottle, though. I can't remember the last time I had wine that required a corkscrew. Most* everyday** Aust/NZ wines are screwcaps, and have been for many years. No cork taint, no scrummaging through the drawer for a corkscrew and easily opened for instant gratification.
*This website says more than 70% of NZ wines are screw top: http://wine.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Screw_Top_Wine_Bottles
**By this I mean wine that should be drunk within 5 yrs, and with the price of up to $30.00 from the bottle shop.
This is an article about a blind taste test: http://www.brokenwood.com.au/aboutUs/screwcap/
John Holmes - 10 Jan 2009 13:20 GMT > I'm all for it - I can re-use them for bottling the the annual vintage > of Chateau Page, which I did this weekend. It's quite fruity with good > acidity but I need to get more tannin into the wine next year. Does > anyone have any suggestions short of buying a very small new French > oak cask? You can buy oak chips or shavings.
 Signature Regards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 07 Jan 2009 21:11 GMT > On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 17:04:38 +0000, Wood Avens > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > you visit museums, drink wine from bottles with screw-on caps, or put > out place cards when you host candlelight dinners. In my view "middle class" can still mean those things, but also has the economic meaning you mention, which is certainly what Obama had in mind in the passage Katy quoted. Maybe it has the economic meaning more often, but we still hear about "middle-class values".
-- Jerry Friedman
Barbara Bailey - 04 Jan 2009 00:40 GMT >>> I agree it (middle class) is a basically meaningless and rather >>> political term, being so broad as to include just about everyone. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > talking culture, aspiration, sending the kids to college, that sort of > thing? The snag you're hitting, I think, is that "middle class" has two meanings in AmE: one is financial and the other is sociological and they don't always go together. A welder who works on the line at the John Deere plant here is solidly middle-class financially, but not sociologically, since he's considered blue-collar or working-class. On the other hand, a junior secretary at the John Deere plant office is middle-class sociologically (she's what would be considered a white-collar worker) but she very likely isn't financially middle-class.
Narelle - 07 Jan 2009 22:24 GMT >> That hardly means that factory work has become a profession. Are we >> talking culture, aspiration, sending the kids to college, that sort of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > plant here is solidly middle-class financially, but not sociologically, > since he's considered blue-collar or working-class. Here, there is the term "Cub", short for "cashed-up bogan". Roughly, it means working class, especially tradies, who are making a lot of money and spending up big. N
Barbara Bailey - 08 Jan 2009 04:51 GMT >>> That hardly means that factory work has become a profession. Are we >>> talking culture, aspiration, sending the kids to college, that sort [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > it means working class, especially tradies, who are making a lot of > money and spending up big. Middle-class economically doesn't necessarily mean spending big, though. A lot of them don't spend big, although they may have one or two very nice toys (a boat, a lake-side vacation cabin, or a top of the line sound and video system, for example) a moderately expensive hobby, or a tendency to take a nice family vacation each year.
Donna Richoux - 08 Jan 2009 10:16 GMT > >> That hardly means that factory work has become a profession. Are we > >> talking culture, aspiration, sending the kids to college, that sort of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and spending up big. > N What is "cashed-up," and what is "bogan"? Where?
 Signature Perplexed -- Donna Richoux an American living in the Netherlands
Leslie Danks - 08 Jan 2009 10:43 GMT [...]
> What is "cashed-up," From the context I would guess it means "having plenty of money".
> and what is "bogan"? Where? This is the first entry in the Urban Dictionary.
[quote] 1. bogan A fascinating beast. The majority of the species are hideously repugnant and unintelligent, and yet they manage to breed in ever-increasing numbers and populate an area known as the outer west. It is quite common to find five or six offspring in each family group, often with a different father for each new baby. Their habitat consists of a weatherboard or brick-veneer dwelling and is characterised by an early-model Holden or Ford in the driveway surrounded by a group of males discussing why the carby is stuffed and the results of last night's footy (a primitive gladiator-like spectator sport enjoyed by most bogans). The female of the species, while smaller in stature, is far more loud and aggressive than the male. While the males tend to be very friendly and congregate with other males, the females spend most of their time in supermarkets and shopping malls, using a shrill high-pitched call to discipline their children and contact other females. Males and females rarely interact socially except during breeding season, which is otherwise known as Friday night. During this time, females are allowed to enter the male-dominated area known as "the pub" and display their impressive coloured plumage to a prospective mate. Herein lies an intersting phenomenon. Males will often fight over a particularly attractive female and she will mate with only one male, while some less attractive females have been known to have several partners simultaneously. [endquote]
 Signature Les (BrE)
Mike Page - 08 Jan 2009 22:53 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > simultaneously. > [endquote] I didn't know so many people from Essex had been transported or had emigrated.
 Signature Mike Page Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email.
Robert Bannister - 08 Jan 2009 23:26 GMT >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > I didn't know so many people from Essex had been transported or had > emigrated. Other way round, cobber. The Essex people have watched to many Aussie soapies.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Richard Bollard - 09 Jan 2009 04:39 GMT >[...] > >> What is "cashed-up," > >From the context I would guess it means "having plenty of money". Yes.
>> and what is "bogan"? Where?
>This is the first entry in the Urban Dictionary. > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >simultaneously. >[endquote] Very good. It is an Australian term. Somewhat similar to "chav" and "trailer trash" or perhaps "redneck" elsepond.
"Bogan Pride" screened recently. Most critics (and viewers) didn't know how to take it but I rather liked it.
http://www.tv.com/show/76212/summary.html
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Maria C. - 04 Jan 2009 18:44 GMT >> I am somewhat surprised (and not pleasantly so), to see nurses in the >> "Lower Managerial and professional occupations" rather than in the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > but I assume they work, for a given value of "work", or the > advertisers would stop using them. Thanks for that information. I was thinking the classifications were something else entirely.
> Neither of the scales has a direct relationship to social class, > depending on how that's defined, or to status, which is another > different concept again. Obama called teachers working class; he > doesn't mention nurses. Would you (Maria, or other US people) say > that both teachers and nurses are working class? And if so, what does > that mean? No. I think I'd consider them more in the "professional" area than in "working class." Pay would not really enter into the matter. Now, if you ask me how I define "professional" (or "working class," for that matter) I probably couldn't do so very well. I do see teachers and nurses as having professions, though. "Callings," even, in a sense.
This does not mean that I value "professional" over "working class." They both contribute to the society as a whole.
> (Here in the UK, "working class" is now rather old-fashioned, but when > it's used it's usually fairly neutral. Borrowing from the > advertisers' scale, "C2" is the current derogatory term, meaning > "people lower down the social scale than me, whose taste in > furnishings, clothes and food is a legitimate subject for mockery".) "Social scales" are hard to define. There seems to be confusion over the aspects of money, education, tastes, habits, morals, etc.
It would be interesting to hear all AUEers' "placings" or descriptions of the following, with regards to the categories just mentioned (money, edu., etc):
Upper class, middle class, lower class Professional, Working class, "blue collar," "white collar" Upper (or "higher") class, middle class, lower class Class (as in how one conducts oneself) Professional (work designation) Technical (work designation) Other
And: Where one would put authors, writers (and "technical writers"), editors, reporters, and, of course, doctors, nurses, professors, instructors, teachers, and others on a scale according to "respect given to."
This could be the beginning of a best seller -- and plenty of controversy.
 Signature Maria C. Self-defined as Middle Class and Retired (thus having no need to define my previous job).
R H Draney - 04 Jan 2009 20:29 GMT Maria C. filted:
>"Social scales" are hard to define. There seems to be confusion over the >aspects of money, education, tastes, habits, morals, etc. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >This could be the beginning of a best seller -- and plenty of >controversy. The book's already been written:
http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253
....r
 Signature "You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
Maria C. - 04 Jan 2009 21:58 GMT > Maria C. filted, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ....r Well, my heart was in the right place; my intentions were pure. I never meant to be a copycat. And now, I think I'll do some research -- maybe even buy the book.
Thanks, Ron.
 Signature Maria C.
R H Draney - 05 Jan 2009 01:22 GMT Maria C. filted:
>> Maria C. filted, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Thanks, Ron. No aspersions on your intentions...this illustrates two things about Usenet: first, that any idea that seems immediately apparent has probably already been thought of by somebody, and second, that if you *do* suggest something that's already been done, there's bound to be someone looking in who's heard of the earlier work....r
 Signature "You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
Don Phillipson - 31 Dec 2008 20:53 GMT > Of course we have a class system in the US--the moneyed class, and all > the rest. Teachers have never been part* of the moneyed class, although [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > least in Wisconsin, having to represent the secretaries, cooks and > janitors) rather speaks against such puffery. This concludes that teachers' formal attempts a century ago to become a profession was (in the long run) a failure. The mark of professionalism in the 19th century was monopoly powers conferred by the state in return for the guarantee of professional standards of performance. Physicians won these professional privileges by controlling who may call himself "a doctor" (e.g. via state-wide medical control boards examining candidates). Teachers attempted approx. 1900 to follow suit, i.e. claim all teaching posts (e.g. stopping school boards from hiring unemployed and unqualified 18-year-olds) and require that all candidate teachers get credentials from official teacher training colleges, guaranteeing in turn that the current teacher could define the necessary standards of knowledge and police their deployment in the classroom.
This might have worked when there were no more than half a dozen other professions (e.g. law, medicine, serving as a minister of religion) but was obviously attenuated the more occupations (e.g. accountants, airline pilots, bank managers, storekeepers) asserted they too were professionals . . .
 Signature Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) But nowadays
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