School's out...
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LFS - 03 Jan 2009 12:32 GMT From the Guardian:
Word 'school' is out for new £4.7m Sheffield primary Governors say term has negative connotations
...The headteacher of Sheffield's Watercliffe Meadow, Linda Kingdon, said the south Yorkshire school, which is due to open on Monday, will instead be called a "place for learning".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jan/02/school
(I lived in Sheffield once upon a time. I encountered more strange people there than anywhere else, in a lifetime of encountering strange people.)
 Signature Laura (emulate St. George for email)
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 03 Jan 2009 14:05 GMT > From the Guardian: > >Word 'school' is out for new £4.7m Sheffield primary >Governors say term has negative connotations Does the word "idiots" have enough negative connotations to be used of those Governors?
>...The headteacher of Sheffield's Watercliffe Meadow, Linda Kingdon, >said the south Yorkshire school, which is due to open on Monday, will >instead be called a "place for learning". Very unimaginative. What's wrong with "Learnery"?
I suppose "Primary Academy" might be a trifle posh.
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jan/02/school > >(I lived in Sheffield once upon a time. I encountered more strange >people there than anywhere else, in a lifetime of encountering strange >people.)
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
the Omrud - 03 Jan 2009 14:08 GMT >> From the Guardian: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I suppose "Primary Academy" might be a trifle posh. Early-Years University?
 Signature David
Paul Wolff - 03 Jan 2009 14:08 GMT >From the Guardian: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >said the south Yorkshire school, which is due to open on Monday, will >instead be called a "place for learning". It will be interesting to see how well they cope with their self-imposed handicap to clear communication.
From the sentences quoted above, the subject sounds first like a primary, and then like a meadow. They are going to have to indulge in some awkward circumlocution when they want to avoid misunderstanding. I don't know that a primary is always going to be understood as a school, and I am sure that a meadow isn't. And places for learning are legion. They have a scarily narrow view if they think a place of learning has to be a school. I wonder if it is equipped with bicycle sheds.
 Signature Paul
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 03 Jan 2009 14:25 GMT >>From the Guardian: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >It will be interesting to see how well they cope with their self-imposed >handicap to clear communication. I thought I would never write this, but perhaps there is a place in the world for "corporate identity and branding" specialists.
> From the sentences quoted above, the subject sounds first like a >primary, and then like a meadow. They are going to have to indulge in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >They have a scarily narrow view if they think a place of learning has to >be a school. I wonder if it is equipped with bicycle sheds. A lot of useful learning happens behind the bike sheds. But will the sheds be renamed?
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
R H Draney - 03 Jan 2009 15:21 GMT BrE filted:
>> From the sentences quoted above, the subject sounds first like a >>primary, and then like a meadow. They are going to have to indulge in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >A lot of useful learning happens behind the bike sheds. But will the sheds be >renamed? "I believe I saw Jenkins near the velocipedic reliquary"....r
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Philip Eden - 03 Jan 2009 16:33 GMT "R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote :
> BrE filted:
>>> From the sentences quoted above, the subject sounds first like a >>>primary, and then like a meadow. They are going to have to indulge in [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > "I believe I saw Jenkins near the velocipedic reliquary"....r Or what about simply "shed innocence"?
pe
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 03 Jan 2009 17:39 GMT >"R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote : >> BrE filted: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >pe <applause>
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Nick - 03 Jan 2009 16:29 GMT >>From the Guardian: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > learning has to be a school. I wonder if it is equipped with bicycle > sheds. Everyone will be late - by the time their parents have said "get up, you've got to go to [?] place of learning this morning" and asked "have you got your place of learning books", they'll all be late for [?] place of learning.
I wonder what article, if any, should be put where the [?]s are.
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Leslie Danks - 03 Jan 2009 16:43 GMT [...]
> Everyone will be late - by the time their parents have said "get up, > you've got to go to [?] place of learning this morning" and asked "have > you got your place of learning books", they'll all be late for [?] place > of learning. > > I wonder what article, if any, should be put where the [?]s are. "t'"
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Django Cat - 03 Jan 2009 17:47 GMT > Nick wrote
>Everyone will be late - by the time their parents have said "get up, >you've got to go to [?] place of learning this morning" and asked "have >you got your place of learning books", "You're going to miss the place of learning bus".
DC --
LFS - 03 Jan 2009 18:14 GMT >> Nick wrote > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "You're going to miss the place of learning bus". And will there be a "place of learning" uniform?
Presumably the people who have made this decision will describe themselves as "place of learning" governors.
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musika - 03 Jan 2009 19:05 GMT >>> Nick wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Presumably the people who have made this decision will describe > themselves as "place of learning" governors. And will they be reading _Place of Learning for Scandal_ and _Tom Brown's Place of Learning Days_?
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R H Draney - 03 Jan 2009 19:35 GMT musika filted:
>>>> Nick wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >And will they be reading _Place of Learning for Scandal_ and _Tom Brown's >Place of Learning Days_? "hot lesbian lolita place of learninggirls pr0n!!1!"
....r
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Robin Bignall - 03 Jan 2009 22:14 GMT >musika filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >"hot lesbian lolita place of learninggirls pr0n!!1!" Maybe we need to completely replace the word. "Look mum, there's a place of learning of dolphins". That's a place of learning of thought to consider.
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tony cooper - 03 Jan 2009 20:05 GMT >>> Nick wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Presumably the people who have made this decision will describe >themselves as "place of learning" governors. Will they be "place leavers" or "learning leavers"?
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John Kane - 03 Jan 2009 17:32 GMT > From the Guardian: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > said the south Yorkshire school, which is due to open on Monday, will > instead be called a "place for learning". Isn't this a bit otimistic? It sometimes seems to me that "place of weekday incarceration" would be more accurate, although "senior babysitting place" might also be reasonable.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Adrian Bailey - 03 Jan 2009 19:46 GMT > From the Guardian: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > (I lived in Sheffield once upon a time. I encountered more strange people > there than anywhere else, in a lifetime of encountering strange people.) I think the media is spreading some confusion here. Although the school isn't referred to as a school within the school community, and the head describes it as a place for learning, it is not referred to as "a place for learning" as if that phrase is being used as a replacement for the word "school". Capeesh?
Adrian
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 03 Jan 2009 20:35 GMT >> From the Guardian: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >learning" as if that phrase is being used as a replacement for the word >"school". Capeesh? The sign outside the establishment does not use the word "school". http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/01/02/article-1104071-02EE0F0B000005DC-743_4 68x309.jpg
Watercliffe Mead*w A place for learning
Sheffield City Council's list of schools does not use the word "school" in the name of any of the schools. Presumably School is implied. The place in question is listed as "Watercliffe Meadow Community Primary", which is not how it appears on the sign.
Schools typically have the word "school" (or equivalent) in their names. This one doesn't.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Paul Wolff - 03 Jan 2009 23:23 GMT >On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 19:46:08 -0000, "Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >question is listed as "Watercliffe Meadow Community Primary", which is not how >it appears on the sign. When I type "primary" into my Google toolbar search box I am offered these suggestions, in order: primary games primary resources primary colors primary source primary colours primary election primary health care primary key primary school primary biliary cirrhosis
To presume that "a primary" must be understood as a you-know-what-but-I-can't-tell-you is absurd. Why are people, and especially jacks-in-office, so afraid of plain words? Are they ashamed to admit they have a school on their hands? They should be proud, not coy, that they offer fine education to their children. If they do, that is.
>Schools typically have the word "school" (or equivalent) in their names. This >one doesn't.  Signature Paul
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 03 Jan 2009 23:47 GMT >>On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 19:46:08 -0000, "Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >coy, that they offer fine education to their children. If they do, that >is. After posting that message I had another look at the relevant website. There is a list of websites for many of the schools in Sheffield. The word School is included in the names. The new "Watercliffe Meadow" is not yet on the list.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
R H Draney - 04 Jan 2009 03:42 GMT Paul Wolff filted:
>When I type "primary" into my Google toolbar search box I am offered >these suggestions, in order: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > primary school > primary biliary cirrhosis Googlism.com suggests the following definitions:
primary is lowest ever primary is optional? primary is committed to provide opportunities for our primary is a mere one month away and despite every primary is on the republican primary is a small rural school six miles from primary is more important than primary is over primary is certified primary is under the direction of primary is important primary is also next week primary is een school die staat in een gemengd woon primary is open? primary is quiet primary is optional? from primary is a mother lode primary is? primary is now available primary is tuesday primary is committed to provide opportunities for our pupils to achieve their fullest and true potential – in line with the ministry of education primary is one month away and despite every congressional seat being up for grabs there has been little primary is on republican side of the ballot primary is a small rural school six miles from turriff primary is the only primary school in macduff primary is 'poor decision' primary is more important than some realize primary is between pat buchanan and john hagelin primary is sept primary is over saturday primary is important to the north primary is primary is dave vs primary is used for all com primary is under the direction of donna attig primary is important to bush and gore primary is $1950 primary is best option primary is also next week" primary is more than just a critical first test of the candidates' support primary is called a revolution and is different from a rotation primary is recovered primary is going to be a big win for carl primary is moved to the second tuesday in march to coincide with town meeting day primary is situated in factreton primary is lowered primary is removed from the cell and readied for transport primary is the organization of the church for children ages 3 primary is on feb primary is difficult to treat primary is in primary is open? subject primary is held first primary is held between the top two vote getters if a candidate does not receive a majority of the primary vote primary is in state 2 after sending n1 primary is upon us and it appears as if something major is about to happen primary is in no way responsible for loss of data; rivonia primary is in no way responsible for theft of data; rivonia primary promises not to use your primary is the crucial determinant in deciding who will hold those seats primary is in march primary is true else primary is false primary is all but assured re primary is tilted then the image that is reflected back to the secondary from the star will not be primary is an associate member of the independent schools association of southern africa and a member of the southern african heads of primary is first or sie wouldn't be primary primary is one in which the voter may select a candi primary is responsible for the problem until it is solved primary is keen to help members locate their lost accounts through the ato's primary is member owned primary is treated primary is the current selection primary is the required primary is held on the second tuesday in march of presidential election years per §103 primary is deep primary is energised and the iron core becomes strongly magnetic primary is the village school of mgarr primary is designed and optimized for professional voice primary is achieving high standards in key subjects primary is something that another body revolves about primary is an evolved star with unchanged mass primary is used to denote the units collated together to form a case primary is the largest agricultural superannuation fund specifically focussed on the retirement savings needs of rural and regional australians primary is in the direction shown and growing primary is almost 10 volts primary is 0 primary is centered in the cell primary is turned "on" primary is yellow and the b star is blue primary is a rare condition and it is unlikely that you will find yourself in this kind of situation primary is a little over primary is found primary is twice as bright as the secondary primary is booting up primary is the exclusionary process primary is a program for children who are 5 primary is down primary is used to hold a list of ` primary is for each of the political parties to elect their own candidates primary is quiet race
....r
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Mike Lyle - 04 Jan 2009 18:13 GMT [...]
> To presume that "a primary" must be understood as a > you-know-what-but-I-can't-tell-you is absurd. Why are people, and > especially jacks-in-office, so afraid of plain words? Are they > ashamed to admit they have a school on their hands? They should be > proud, not coy, that they offer fine education to their children. If > they do, that is. [...] Quite so. Having witnessed analogous processes, I think they often start with an office panic started by one person or very small group.
The panic-starter may be unversed in the skills of literary criticism and textual analysis, and may himself have misunderstood something somebody else said, or merely be a bit potty. If the starter or an early adopter is a member of a group with whom for the time being that office isn't allowed to argue--almost any group may sometimes qualify, but it's usually one which can wave a banner with the strange device "Unfair to..."--then the panic buttons will get smitten all round the department before lunch. All-same warnings from legal departments or safety officers taken out of context.
We could all list favourite examples, but my own include my children's edition of /The Oxford Children's Encyclopedia/, which called the language of Germany "German", but the ancient tongue of Wales "Cymraeg" throughout. British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals". I'll defer to the learned opinion of our intellectual property guru, but it seems to me at best redundant for a book to carry the odd message "The moral right of the author has been asserted". These must all have been started by somebody who for some social reason couldn't be disagreed with.
 Signature Mike.
Paul Wolff - 04 Jan 2009 18:53 GMT [snip perfectly good stuff]
>. I'll >defer to the learned opinion of our intellectual property guru, but it >seems to me at best redundant for a book to carry the odd message "The >moral right of the author has been asserted". These must all have been >started by somebody who for some social reason couldn't be disagreed >with. I say, Henry, it look s like a case for Sections 77 and 78 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1977.
77 Right to be identified as author or director (1) The author of a copyright literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work, and the director of a copyright film, has the right to be identified as the author or director of the work in the circumstances mentioned in this section; but the right is not infringed unless it has been asserted in accordance with section 78. [blah - miscellany of occasions when the right applies, essentially public showing or performance or distribution]
78 Requirement that right be asserted (1) A person does not infringe the right conferred by section 77 (right to be identified as author or director) by doing any of the acts mentioned in that section unless the right has been asserted in accordance with the following provisions so as to bind him in relation to that act. [blah]
(2) The right may be asserted generally, or [blah]
(4) The persons bound by an assertion of the right under subsection (2) or (3) are—
(b) in the case of an assertion under subsection (2)(b), anyone to whose notice the assertion is brought;
So the purpose of the printed statement of an assertion of moral right is to bring the assertion to the notice of all who may read the book, and thereby make the right binding on those who may be tempted to infringe the right by failing to identify the author or director at the proper time and in the proper way.
I suppose I could have summarised, but fell into copy/paste mode with an old edition (so may have been amended, I suppose) in the hope it would be less trouble.
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Mike Lyle - 04 Jan 2009 23:34 GMT > [snip perfectly good stuff] > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > an old edition (so may have been amended, I suppose) in the hope it > would be less trouble. [Far too serious to snip.]
But has anybody ever been successful in court with a plea that, for example, the words " /To Right the Wrong/ E.Raser" in big friendly letters on a title page had been insufficient to establish Ms Raser's pretension to authorship?
(I'll leave the possibility that the assertion, whether implicit or explicit, may be false, or even in effect defamatory, for the next moot.)
 Signature Mike.
Garrett Wollman - 05 Jan 2009 04:34 GMT >But has anybody ever been successful in court with a plea that, for >example, the words " /To Right the Wrong/ E.Raser" in big friendly >letters on a title page had been insufficient to establish Ms Raser's >pretension to authorship? This whole "moral rights" nonsense is, I believe, an invention of Continental Europe (France? Germany?). We never had it on this side of the Pond until a few years back it was slipped into a trade agreement that Congress enacted (but thankfully only for the visual arts).
The "moral rights" doctrine usually includes, side-by-side with the right to be identified as the creator of a work, the right *not* to be identified as the creator of a work. Moreover, "moral rights" are inalienable; they cannot be surrendered to a third party, nor are they extinguished by sale of the work as property rights are. In the U.S. context, this means, for example, that if you hire an artist to paint a fresco on your ceiling, you may not alter it in any way, except by totally obscuring or removing it, without the consent of the original artist, even though the work might otherwise have been considered a "work made for hire" and you are the owner of the copyright.
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Paul Wolff - 06 Jan 2009 18:05 GMT >This whole "moral rights" nonsense is, I believe, an invention of >Continental Europe (France? Germany?). We never had it on this side >of the Pond until a few years back it was slipped into a trade >agreement that Congress enacted (but thankfully only for the visual >arts). It stems from the Berne Convention of 1886, which was indeed of European origin. The moral rights parts are in Article 6bis which possibly was added in the Rome text of 1928. If they had been in the original 1886 text this could have been numbered Article 7. But I don't think I have much historical information easily to hand.
>The "moral rights" doctrine usually includes, side-by-side with the >right to be identified as the creator of a work, the right *not* to be [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >considered a "work made for hire" and you are the owner of the >copyright.  Signature Paul
Paul Wolff - 05 Jan 2009 19:04 GMT >Paul Wolff wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> I say, Henry, it look s like a case for Sections 77 and 78 of the >> Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1977. Whoops, 1988.
>But has anybody ever been successful in court with a plea that, for >example, the words " /To Right the Wrong/ E.Raser" in big friendly >letters on a title page had been insufficient to establish Ms Raser's >pretension to authorship? I don't know of any cases myself. Moral rights aren't my daily bread. I had a quick look in the usual places and found only an Oz case about a painting. "In August 2006, the Federal Magistrates Court decided the outcome of the first moral rights case since the Commonwealth Government introduced legislation protecting moral rights six years ago."
<http://www.artslaw.com.au/ArtLaw/Archive/06MoralRightsComeToCourt.asp> <http://tinyurl.com/a96jme>
These cases aren't very thick on the ground.
In respect of "Alan Clark's Secret Political Diaries" which were printed in the Evening Standard ten years ago, Alan Clark won on false attribution of ownership. But that's not the same thing either.
>(I'll leave the possibility that the assertion, whether implicit or >explicit, may be false, or even in effect defamatory, for the next >moot.) Thank goodness.
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Chuck Riggs - 05 Jan 2009 14:27 GMT >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >started by somebody who for some social reason couldn't be disagreed >with. I'm curious to know, Mike, which Daffy Duck publication gave you the impression Americans often call women "females" or that they usually refer to people as "individuals"?
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
Roland Hutchinson - 05 Jan 2009 18:08 GMT >> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft >>Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals". I'll [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > impression Americans often call women "females" or that they usually > refer to people as "individuals"? It sounds rather more Runyonesque than Loonytooney to me.
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Mike Lyle - 05 Jan 2009 20:39 GMT >>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft >>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals". [...]>>
>> I'm curious to know, Mike, which Daffy Duck publication gave you the >> impression Americans often call women "females" or that they usually >> refer to people as "individuals"? > > It sounds rather more Runyonesque than Loonytooney to me. More Smokeybearesque than either. I should have made it clear that I referred to the speech of American police officers, not to that of the happiness-pursuers at large.
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Roland Hutchinson - 05 Jan 2009 21:00 GMT >>>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft >>>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > referred to the speech of American police officers, not to that of the > happiness-pursuers at large. Ten-four to that.
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Maria C. - 06 Jan 2009 00:18 GMT >>>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft >>>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > referred to the speech of American police officers, not to that of the > happiness-pursuers at large. "Smokeybearesque" makes me think of "Smokey [the] Bear" -- the mascot of the United States Forest Service. He is not to be confused with Yogi Bear -- who is not to be confused with Yogi Berra.
A drawing of Smokey Bear is at: http://johnstodderinexile.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/smokey-the-bear-classic.jpg or http://tinyurl.com/2r8wy3
and a bio can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Bear
But by "Smokeybearesque," I assume you refer to the American police officers whose hats sort of resemble Smokey's. Well, I don't really /assume/ -- you actually said "American police officers." However, most American police officers don't resemble Smokey.
Anyway: Yes, police officers in the US do sometimes talked in a stilted manner.* That is, they talk the way they were taught to talk in training. Do they ever slip? Of course. They're human beings, not gods or robots. (And a small percentage of them are, most likely, total jerks.)
*I'm speaking not about movies or TV, but from knowing a couple of cops over the years.
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Frank ess - 06 Jan 2009 01:08 GMT >>>>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft >>>>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > *I'm speaking not about movies or TV, but from knowing a couple of > cops over the years. I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the events depicted. Described, I mean.
I never asked the writers why they were taught to use the slightly out-of-place-and-rhythm words. Pretty clear from my experience, most of them didn't get enough instruction in Report Writing. Highway Patrolmen (CHiPpies) were best at it. Of course CHP officers wear leather and metal, and squeak and jingle when they walk, like overdressed horses. Those words just seem less weird, coming from them.
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Maria C. - 06 Jan 2009 02:46 GMT > Maria C. wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't > include the euphemistic Any examples of euphemisms that you recall?
> .....designations for various participants in the > events depicted. Described, I mean. > > I never asked the writers why they were taught to use the slightly > out-of-place-and-rhythm words. Pretty clear from my experience, most > of them didn't get enough instruction in Report Writing. I'm thinking that good language usage is not the (or even a) primary requirement for a police officer.
> .....Highway > Patrolmen (CHiPpies) were best at it. Of course CHP officers wear > leather and metal, and squeak and jingle when they walk, like > overdressed horses. Those words just seem less weird, coming from > them. "Squeak and jingle" just doesn't create a manly image for me. But many cowboys of the movies may have squeaked and jingled and still got the job done.
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Chuck Riggs - 06 Jan 2009 13:56 GMT >> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >I'm thinking that good language usage is not the (or even a) primary >requirement for a police officer. It depends on what you mean by good. You want your police to understand what is being said and to speak in an understandable manner, which they largely do, not to create poetry.
>> .....Highway >> Patrolmen (CHiPpies) were best at it. Of course CHP officers wear [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >cowboys of the movies may have squeaked and jingled and still got the >job done. What is manly? From my experience with them, neither cops, cowboys nor military men appeared particularly manly, if "manly" means rugged, brave, uncouth and uncaring, as in the stereotype.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
John Varela - 07 Jan 2009 01:42 GMT > "Squeak and jingle" just doesn't create a manly image for me. The leather squeaks and the weapons jingle. It evokes the image of a Klingon warrior.
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Nick - 06 Jan 2009 07:47 GMT > I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't > include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > overdressed horses. Those words just seem less weird, coming from > them. There's an old joke of a bunch of riot police lined up behind their shields, chanting "'ere we procede, 'ere we procede, 'ere we procede".
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John Varela - 07 Jan 2009 01:41 GMT > I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't > include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the > events depicted. Described, I mean. > > I never asked the writers why they were taught to use the slightly > out-of-place-and-rhythm words. One good reason for using "female" is to avoid "girl" or "woman" and risk offending a girl who thinks she's a woman, or a woman who thinks she's still a girl.
Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me.
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Roland Hutchinson - 07 Jan 2009 04:45 GMT >> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't >> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me. To make it clear that the person being described is a natural person rather than a corporation, perhaps? ("Observed three corporations loitering in a suspicious manner outside of a pub...")
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Robin Bignall - 07 Jan 2009 22:07 GMT >>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't >>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >than a corporation, perhaps? ("Observed three corporations loitering in a >suspicious manner outside of a pub...") That would work in BrE. A "corporation" is a fat paunch, often obtained by drinking lots of beer. COD describes the usage as "dated, humorous", but it was certainly used WIWAL.
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Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 00:19 GMT >>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't >>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > obtained by drinking lots of beer. COD describes the usage as "dated, > humorous", but it was certainly used WIWAL. I live and learn!
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 08 Jan 2009 02:30 GMT >>>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't >>>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >I live and learn! In BrE a corporation is also (per COED):
a group of people elected to govern a city, town, or borough.
This lead to witticisms about "the Mayor and his corporation".
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Garrett Wollman - 08 Jan 2009 04:16 GMT >In BrE a corporation is also (per COED): > > a group of people elected to govern a city, town, or borough. Technically the case in AmE as well, but very rarely used. (And when it is, normally seen only in the collocation "municipal corporation".) But we do say "incorporated" (and mean different things by it in different states) with reference to the establishment of local government.
(Entering any municipality in Massachusetts via State Highway, there is a white sign in the shape of an open book which reads "ENTERING", the name of the city or town in large, friendly letters, and then either "EST. XXXX" or "INC. YYYY" depending on whether the community was established prior to its incorporation.[1] Similarly, the Seal of the City of Boston reads "SICUT PATRIBUS SIT DEUS NOBIS. / BOSTONIA CONDITA A.D. 1630 / CIVITATIS REGIMINE DONATA A.D. 1822."
-GAWollman
[1] The law allowing for incorporation of cities dates to ca. 1820. Today all towns and cities in Massachusetts are incorporated and equal in status; the only differences are the form of government and the formal style.
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 04:28 GMT > Similarly, the Seal of > the City of Boston reads "SICUT PATRIBUS SIT DEUS NOBIS.[...]" The which being English'd: "WE ROOT FOR THE PATRIOTS[1] BECAUSE GOD IS ON OUR SIDE"
[1] The New England Patriots, of the National Football League.
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Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 04:38 GMT >>In BrE a corporation is also (per COED): >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > different states) with reference to the establishment of local > government. Indeed, the only governing "corporation" I recall from the Boston area is governing body of our own beloved Massachusetts Institute of Technology (they would be styled "the board of trustees" at most comparable American institutions of tertiary education, though the corresponding body up the river at ever-incomparable Harvard are "the President and Fellows"--the oldest corporation in America among their other claims to fame-- who apparently require to be overseen by "the Overseers").
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Ian Jackson - 08 Jan 2009 08:28 GMT >>>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't >>>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >I live and learn! Circa 1950, I certainly remember my mother telling my father that he was getting a corporation (and the meaning was immediately obvious). I don't think I've heard it since.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 08 Jan 2009 11:19 GMT >>>>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't >>>>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >getting a corporation (and the meaning was immediately obvious). I don't >think I've heard it since. Yes. I don't think that that meaning or the local government one about which I posted are well-known in the UK any longer.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Ian Jackson - 08 Jan 2009 15:55 GMT >>>>>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't >>>>>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >Yes. I don't think that that meaning or the local government one about which I >posted are well-known in the UK any longer. Another word for a "paunch" (dating from the same era, I believe) is "kite". Again, never heard for decades.
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Mike Lyle - 08 Jan 2009 18:40 GMT [...]
> Another word for a "paunch" (dating from the same era, I believe) is > "kite". Again, never heard for decades. "...blow out yer kite On boiled beef and carrots."
 Signature Mike.
Ian Jackson - 08 Jan 2009 19:13 GMT >[...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >"...blow out yer kite >On boiled beef and carrots." So presumably Cockney rhyming slang? But for what? In line 3, "Derby Kel"(ly) is "belly". But what's "kite"?
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Mike Lyle - 08 Jan 2009 21:58 GMT >> [...] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > So presumably Cockney rhyming slang? But for what? In line 3, "Derby > Kel"(ly) is "belly". But what's "kite"? I don't know, and neither did Partridge. OED doesn't give it a mention at all. Partridge /Hist Slang/, I see, has only the phrase "blow out the kite", so maybe my "yer" was wrong.
 Signature Mike.
Ian Jackson - 08 Jan 2009 22:21 GMT >>> [...] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >at all. Partridge /Hist Slang/, I see, has only the phrase "blow out the >kite", so maybe my "yer" was wrong. Close enough.
Boiled beef and carrots, Boiled beef and carrots. That's the stuff for your "Derby Kel" It makes you fit and keeps you well. Don't live like vegetarians, On food they give to parrots. From morn till night, blow out your kite, On boiled beef and carrots!
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 08 Jan 2009 23:10 GMT >>> [...] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >at all. Partridge /Hist Slang/, I see, has only the phrase "blow out the >kite", so maybe my "yer" was wrong. There is a visible similarity between a swelling belly and the bellying cloth of a kite.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
John Holmes - 09 Jan 2009 12:46 GMT >> [...] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > So presumably Cockney rhyming slang? But for what? In line 3, "Derby > Kel"(ly) is "belly". But what's "kite"? I'd never heard "kite" before. Most of the web references seem to associate it with northern UK places: Northumbrian, geordie, Sunderland, etc turn up in the first few pages of google hits. Therefore unlikely to be rhyming slang.
This page looks interesting for comparative dialectologists: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm (kite is in line 049)
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Ian Jackson - 09 Jan 2009 13:40 GMT >>> [...] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm >(kite is in line 049) That's an interesting site. I see that "kite" for "belly" is peculiar to Northumberland. Being a native of them tharr parts, that explains why I heard it in my youth. But I wonder how it ended up in a Harry Campion Cockney music hall song?
I see the areas which speak some form of Dutch seem to favour what sounds like "book" or "bowk", but means abdomen (says Babelfish). In Northumbrian/Geordie, "bowk" means "belch", so maybe there is some connection.
 Signature Ian
Robert Bannister - 09 Jan 2009 21:43 GMT > This page looks interesting for comparative dialectologists: > http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm > (kite is in line 049) It is interesting, but somewhat spoiled by contrasting "du" with "you" instead of "thou".
 Signature Rob Bannister
Robin Bignall - 08 Jan 2009 22:13 GMT >>>>>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't >>>>>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >Yes. I don't think that that meaning or the local government one about which I >posted are well-known in the UK any longer. Back in the 1940s and 50s most, if not all, northern and midlands cities and large towns were run by a local corporation. In Nottingham it ran the state schools, bus service, refuse collection and maybe also had some say in hospitals. The Nottingham coat of arms was on school exercise books, buses, dust carts and possibly ambulances. Maybe police cars also had the CoA, I can't remember. Water was often called "corporation Brylcreem".
 Signature Robin (BrE) Herts, England
Ian Jackson - 08 Jan 2009 22:37 GMT >>>>>>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't >>>>>>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >Maybe police cars also had the CoA, I can't remember. Water was often >called "corporation Brylcreem". On the same theme, there was also a haircream called "Brilliantine" (pronounced 'Brilliant-teen'). http://www.thefreedictionary.com/brilliantine
I recall that the water equivalent was "Tapaline". It appears that I'm not wrong! http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:w6AKKpQTgKYJ:br.answers.yahoo.com/qu estion/index%3Fqid%3D20080106120421AAfPGGb+tapaline%2Bwater&hl=en&ct=clnk &cd=9&gl=uk>
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Amethyst Deceiver - 09 Jan 2009 13:46 GMT > >>Circa 1950, I certainly remember my mother telling my father that he was > >>getting a corporation (and the meaning was immediately obvious). I don't [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Maybe police cars also had the CoA, I can't remember. Water was often > called "corporation Brylcreem". And "corporation pop".
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Robert Bannister - 07 Jan 2009 23:01 GMT >> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't >> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > risk offending a girl who thinks she's a woman, or a woman who > thinks she's still a girl. I can only presume you are correct on this. To me, "a female" sounds demeaning, but women and girls I have asked about this think differently.
 Signature Rob Bannister
John Varela - 09 Jan 2009 00:04 GMT > Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me. Label of a page-width photo on the front page of The Washington Post, 8 January 2009:
<quote>
George H. W. Bush, Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and Jimmy Carter gathered for lunch at the White House yesterday. The current and former chief executives offered recollections and guidance to the president-elect, who said, "For me to have the opportunity to get the advice, good counsel and fellowship with these individuals is extraordinary, and I'm very grateful." It was the first White House gathering of all the living American presidents since 1981.
</quote>
I wonder what word he could have used instead of "individuals". Gentlemen, men, fellows, guys, people, persons? One thing is certain: he definitely could have used "of" instead of "with".
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Maria C. - 09 Jan 2009 05:56 GMT >> Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > I wonder what word he could have used instead of "individuals". "Individuals" was fine, IMO.
> Gentlemen, men, fellows, guys, people, persons? One thing is > certain: he definitely could have used "of" instead of "with". I see your point, but the phrase "fellowship with" sounds okay to me. However, when you consider the earlier part of the sentence, "of" is the better choice. So, he may have chosen, even if unconsciously, to use what sounded best with the final word of the threesome ("advice, good counsel and fellowship").
That sort of thing happens sometimes.
 Signature Maria C.
Mike Lyle - 09 Jan 2009 16:11 GMT >>> Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me. >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > "Individuals" was fine, IMO. [...]
Like "female", it's potentially insulting in non-American English. Not as bad as "female", but still risky.
 Signature Mike.
John Varela - 10 Jan 2009 02:12 GMT > >> Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me. > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > "Individuals" was fine, IMO. Not according to what everyone has been saying elsewhere in this thread.
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Maria C. - 10 Jan 2009 03:28 GMT >>>> Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me. >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Not according to what everyone has been saying elsewhere in this > thread. I must be an individualist.
 Signature Maria C.
Chuck Riggs - 09 Jan 2009 10:36 GMT >> Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Gentlemen, men, fellows, guys, people, persons? One thing is >certain: he definitely could have used "of" instead of "with". My vote is for "gentlemen".
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
Richard Bollard - 08 Jan 2009 04:05 GMT [...]
>> Anyway: Yes, police officers in the US do sometimes talked in a >> stilted manner.* That is, they talk the way they were taught to [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >overdressed horses. Those words just seem less weird, coming from >them. Canberra police made a real effort recently to talk naturally. It was a breath of fresh air. They don't "apprehend a male individual" but "arrest a man".
Last night on the telly I heard a NSW cop talking about a child that was killed by a dog. "We discovered an individual" etc. Weird. Maybe talking in cop code distances them from judgmental thinking or something.
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 04:25 GMT > Canberra police made a real effort recently to talk naturally. It was > a breath of fresh air. They don't "apprehend a male individual" but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > talking in cop code distances them from judgmental thinking or > something. Protects them from overhelming emotional involvement, too, I would think, by reducing the reporting to a routine. They see some pretty horrible things in the course of their work -- not every day, perhaps, but often enough that it takes a toll, so distancing is a coping strategy.
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Donna Richoux - 08 Jan 2009 10:01 GMT > > Canberra police made a real effort recently to talk naturally. It was > > a breath of fresh air. They don't "apprehend a male individual" but [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > in the course of their work -- not every day, perhaps, but often enough > that it takes a toll, so distancing is a coping strategy. I think "male" and "female" frees them first from distinctions based on age. To call someone a "man" bestows a certain dignity of maturity on the person. What if the suspect (victim, etc) was at best a young man, a teenager, on the verge of being a child, a boy? (A punk, a kid....?) Is the police officer supposed to grope around for a term that is age-accurate without being offensive? What if only a glimpse of the fleeing suspect was found, and the age is unsure? What if they call someone a boy and he turns out to be full-grown, perhaps of a minority race? "Male" avoids all that. It can be hard enough to know whether a person is male or female these days.
Besides age, there are also the overtones of respectability, class, etc. "Woman," "lady," "young woman," "young lady," and "girl" all have their connotations.
I think it's good that cops strive to be neutral, even if some of you laugh.
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Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 15:45 GMT >> > Canberra police made a real effort recently to talk naturally. It was >> > a breath of fresh air. They don't "apprehend a male individual" but [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > I think it's good that cops strive to be neutral, even if some of you > laugh. Yes, I agree that that is at work in the use of "male" and "female".
I was trying to say that their use of formulaic and objective language _in general_ is (also) a psychological defense mechanism.
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Mike Lyle - 08 Jan 2009 18:38 GMT [...]
>> Besides age, there are also the overtones of respectability, class, >> etc. "Woman," "lady," "young woman," "young lady," and "girl" all [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yes, I agree that that is at work in the use of "male" and "female". It must be different in AmE, then: if I called a woman a "female" it would be a serious insult. "Woman" in nearly all contexts is perfectly neutral in my English. I accept the age problem, but I deal with it, so they probably could, too. As I mentioned earlier, calling for help over the police radio during an incident is a different kind of communication from speaking to the television audience.
> I was trying to say that their use of formulaic and objective > language _in general_ is (also) a psychological defense mechanism. I hadn't considered that, and it's a good point. It can also, however, be a psychological defence mechanism for bad behaviour.
 Signature Mike.
Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 19:02 GMT > [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I hadn't considered that, and it's a good point. It can also, however, > be a psychological defence mechanism for bad behaviour. Yes it can. That's just one reason among many why looking after the psychological well-being of police officers, for their own benefit and for that of society, must be no simple matter.
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R H Draney - 08 Jan 2009 17:47 GMT Donna Richoux filted:
>I think "male" and "female" frees them first from distinctions based on >age. To call someone a "man" bestows a certain dignity of maturity on [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I think it's good that cops strive to be neutral, even if some of you >laugh. Not all of them succeed...every once in a while I'll see a cop on the news talking about someone brought in, and describing the preceding standoff by saying "when we arrived, one gentleman was striking the other gentleman in the head with a length of galvanized pipe"....r
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Chuck Riggs - 09 Jan 2009 10:48 GMT >Donna Richoux filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >saying "when we arrived, one gentleman was striking the other gentleman in the >head with a length of galvanized pipe"....r What in the world is wrong with "man", "woman", "boy", "girl" and "baby"?
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Chuck Riggs - 09 Jan 2009 10:44 GMT >> > Canberra police made a real effort recently to talk naturally. It was >> > a breath of fresh air. They don't "apprehend a male individual" but [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >I think it's good that cops strive to be neutral, even if some of you >laugh. How do you perceive "perpetrator", or "perp", and "alleged perpetrator"? That's cop talk too, if the popular TV show and computer game, "Law and Order", can be believed.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
John Holmes - 09 Jan 2009 12:55 GMT > I think "male" and "female" frees them first from distinctions based > on age. To call someone a "man" bestows a certain dignity of maturity [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > etc. "Woman," "lady," "young woman," "young lady," and "girl" all > have their connotations. Cross-reference to the definition of "youth" that Richard Yates and Maria C. posted about recently, in the thread Re: youth:
>> ...Turning that >> point on its head, however, I found this definition in the laws of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the facility/department. It also helps in deterring any charges of sex > discrimination.
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John Holmes - 09 Jan 2009 12:27 GMT > I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't > include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > out-of-place-and-rhythm words. Pretty clear from my experience, most > of them didn't get enough instruction in Report Writing. I was once sitting on a tram on a route that served a place of rozzer learning. Chap sitting next to me got a wad of what were evidently reports written by the trainees, and proceeded to go through them with a red pen. He was putting Xs through a lot of the worst examples of the types of verbiage under discussion. And yet the graduates still write that way, and police PR spokesmen talk that way too.
It's a disease.
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R H Draney - 06 Jan 2009 01:48 GMT Maria C. filted:
>But by "Smokeybearesque," I assume you refer to the American police >officers whose hats sort of resemble Smokey's. Well, I don't really >/assume/ -- you actually said "American police officers." However, most >American police officers don't resemble Smokey. Ever own a CB radio?...r
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Maria C. - 06 Jan 2009 02:35 GMT > Maria C. filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ever own a CB radio?...r I was actually engaged to a CBer back before I met Brian. He was Jewish, not a trucker, and very much a city guy. However, CBers at that time (early-to-mid-1960s) were not the same as in later years. Or so it seemed/seems to me.
My son has a CB in his truck, but I've never heard him use it (never having been on a cross-country haul with him*).
*And I probably never will accompany him because the company he works for allows only immediate family (family members covered under his insurance) as occasional passengers. It's all about liability. Well, I can't fault that.
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Chuck Riggs - 06 Jan 2009 14:05 GMT >> Maria C. filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >insurance) as occasional passengers. It's all about liability. Well, I >can't fault that. A Jewish CBer? Are you sure, Maria? I can't imagine a Jew saying "10-4, good buddy", any more than I can imagine myself saying it.
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Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
CDB - 06 Jan 2009 15:21 GMT [smokey what?]
> A Jewish CBer? Are you sure, Maria? I can't imagine a Jew saying > "10-4, good buddy", any more than I can imagine myself saying it. This guy might (That's "guy", OK?), although he doesn't here. Mentions sheep, though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzfei3jG_To&feature=related
Maria C. - 06 Jan 2009 19:14 GMT >>> Maria C. filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> that time (early-to-mid-1960s) were not the same as in later years. >> Or so it seemed/seems to me. [...]
> A Jewish CBer? Are you sure, Maria? What, a Jewish man can't have a hobby?
Of course, I'm sure. Well, I think I'm sure. Maybe it was some sort of Civil Defense radio. Ham operator? Short Wave? I don't think so. All I know is that there was equipment of a sort in his car (a '62 Corvair, a GM product I didn't especially like no matter who was driving it), and he had a mike and some sort of radio set-up (send and receive).
Now that I'm thinking about it, I sort of recall little triangles (with "CD" -- or was it "CB"?-- written them) that appeared on radio dials in those years. Maybe that had something to do with it. But maybe not.
See: http://the60sofficialsite.com/Radio%20Dial.jpg (The letters don't show, but the triangles do.)
Anyway, I remember him saying KHH3167 and KLM2939 (I've probably misremembered the 3-alpha-4-numeric handles.) I thought it all was sort of cool.
But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later.
> .....I can't imagine a Jew saying "10-4, good buddy", any more than I > can imagine myself saying it. I think that phrase became popular after the early sixties. Maybe in the 1970s....
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Mike Page - 06 Jan 2009 21:23 GMT ...> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later.
>> .....I can't imagine a Jew saying "10-4, good buddy", any more than I >> can imagine myself saying it. > > I think that phrase became popular after the early sixties. Maybe in the > 1970s.... Earlier than that. There was a cop series 'Highway Patrol' in the fifties, where they said that all the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Patrol_(TV_series)
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Skitt - 06 Jan 2009 21:24 GMT > ...> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Patrol_(TV_series) Got your ears on, good buddy?
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Roland Hutchinson - 06 Jan 2009 22:39 GMT >> ...> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later. >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Got your ears on, good buddy? As I recall, they said "10-4" a lot on "Highway Patrol" but the "good buddy" bit came in with the CBers.
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Maria C. - 07 Jan 2009 17:16 GMT > As I recall, they said "10-4" a lot on "Highway Patrol" but the "good > buddy" bit came in with the CBers. I just posted a very similar comment. I guess my memory is still intact -- it just doesn't remember sources too well.
Maria C.
Paul Wolff - 07 Jan 2009 18:23 GMT >Roland Hutchinson wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I just posted a very similar comment. I guess my memory is still intact >-- it just doesn't remember sources too well. Mine still works, but more slowly, and the indexing system is a bit broken.
But to the point: "ten-four" in Highway Patrol triggers an echo of "twenty-one fifty" somewhere in my head. I never did know what they meant, but that didn't seem to interfere with the entertainment.
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Maria C. - 07 Jan 2009 17:15 GMT >> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Patrol_(TV_series) I thought they said just "Ten-Four" (10-4). No "good buddy" added on. That came from truckers, later on. (Didn't it?)
Maria C. Losing (or having lost) her once "excellent" memory.
Barbara Bailey - 07 Jan 2009 17:24 GMT "Maria C." <noname@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:Rq59l.880$%54.359 @nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com:
>>> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I thought they said just "Ten-Four" (10-4). No "good buddy" added on. > That came from truckers, later on. (Didn't it?) 10-4 was carried over from police 10-code radio usage. Remember that before the civilian CB craze, truckers were already using them and were monitoring police calls for early warning of traffic problems or speed traps. The police have used 10-code since it was developed in the 1930's; the practice of starting any broadcast with "10-" was to get around that fact that the first syllable of a radio call was likely to be garbled.
Ian Jackson - 07 Jan 2009 17:39 GMT >"Maria C." <noname@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:Rq59l.880$%54.359 >@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >of starting any broadcast with "10-" was to get around that fact that the >first syllable of a radio call was likely to be garbled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-code [I, too, remember Broderick Crawford (Highway Patrol, 1950s American TV series) saying "10-4" (many, many, many times).]
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Maria C. - 07 Jan 2009 19:02 GMT >>>>> .....I can't imagine a Jew saying "10-4, good buddy", any more >>>>> than I can imagine myself saying it. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > get around that fact that the first syllable of a radio call was > likely to be garbled. Yeahbut... I was referring to "Ten-four, good buddy" not just "Ten-four." (I used to watch Highway Patrol, too. Everyone I knew then did.) I'm thinking that truckers, or at least non-police types, added the "good buddy."
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Chuck Riggs - 08 Jan 2009 15:02 GMT >>>>>> .....I can't imagine a Jew saying "10-4, good buddy", any more >>>>>> than I can imagine myself saying it. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >did.) I'm thinking that truckers, or at least non-police types, added >the "good buddy." Weren't there a whole series of Burt Reynold's car-chase films containing such memorable lines as "Put the pedal to the metal" and "10-4, Good buddy!"?
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R H Draney - 08 Jan 2009 17:55 GMT Chuck Riggs filted:
>Weren't there a whole series of Burt Reynold's car-chase films >containing such memorable lines as "Put the pedal to the metal" and >"10-4, Good buddy!"? "Smokey and the Bandit" (1977) and "Cannonball Run" (1981) were preceded by a popular 1975 recording by Bill Fries:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYS0Epyyu3k
....r
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the Omrud - 08 Jan 2009 18:00 GMT > Chuck Riggs filted: >> Weren't there a whole series of Burt Reynold's car-chase films [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYS0Epyyu3k Ah, no, the song "Convoy" was the basis for the 1978 movie, er, "Convoy". Kristofferson and MacGraw, directed by Peckinpah (so it's really a cowboy film).
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Roland Hutchinson - 06 Jan 2009 21:27 GMT > Now that I'm thinking about it, I sort of recall little triangles (with > "CD" -- or was it "CB"?-- written them) that appeared on radio dials in > those years. Maybe that had something to do with it. But maybe not. No, those were just the emergency-broadcast ("Civil Defense") frequencies on the regular AM radio dial. 640 and 1240 kHz if memory serves. Though of course in those days we still called them kilocycles.
Oh, here we go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CONELRAD
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John Varela - 07 Jan 2009 01:55 GMT > >> I was actually engaged to a CBer back before I met Brian. He was > >> Jewish, not a trucker, and very much a city guy. However, CBers at > >> that time (early-to-mid-1960s) were not the same as in later years. > >> Or so it seemed/seems to me. CB was around in the early 60s, but it didn't become a fad until cheap solid state units became available about a decade later. The 1973 gas shortage and the national 55 MPH speed limit were what really set it off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_radio
> > A Jewish CBer? Are you sure, Maria? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > misremembered the 3-alpha-4-numeric handles.) I thought it all was sort > of cool. Those would have been genuine ham radio call letters, and the CD was for Civilian Defense. Surely you've heard of ham radio. If not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_radio
> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I think that phrase became popular after the early sixties. Maybe in the > 1970s.... ...when the truckers adopted CB radio as described in the Wikipaedia article.
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Frank ess - 07 Jan 2009 06:00 GMT [ ... ]
>> Anyway, I remember him saying KHH3167 and KLM2939 (I've probably >> misremembered the 3-alpha-4-numeric handles.) I thought it all was >> sort of cool. > > Those would have been genuine ham radio call letters, and the CD was > for Civilian Defense. Surely you've heard of ham radio. If not: I was CBing in the early 70s, one of many (but not a majority, I bet) who actually applied for and received a US-govt-issued CB Radio License. Mine was KSE7017.
The govt lost control of the Citizen (and some adjacent) Bands, and it seems to me the solution was to throw in the towel. I lost interest when the "air" became so crowded and "skip"*-polluted it was no longer dependably useful. I have quite a bit of then-adanced equipment, in case something happens to make it worthhwile again.
* skip: a condition of atmospherics that traps and channels radio waves that would ordinarily escape into space or dissipate, so that signals have extraordinary reach. I once had a nice 3.75-watt conversation with a fellow CBer in Brazil.
 Signature Frank "Voice of the Tijuana Border" ess
Maria C. - 07 Jan 2009 17:34 GMT > Maria C. wrote, in part:
>> Of course, I'm sure. Well, I think I'm sure. Maybe it was some sort >> of Civil Defense radio. Ham operator? Short Wave? I don't think so. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Those would have been genuine ham radio call letters, and the CD was > for Civilian Defense. Surely you've heard of ham radio. See my first paragraph above (the one beginning with "Of course." I was aware of Ham radio, just not familiar with it.
If not:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_radio > >> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later. [re 10-4 Good Buddy]:
>> I think that phrase became popular after the early sixties. Maybe in >> the 1970s.... > > ...when the truckers adopted CB radio as described in the Wikipaedia > article. Yes. I think "Breaker Breaker One-Nine" was used a lot then (1970s).
Thanks for the reference.
 Signature Maria C.
Chuck Riggs - 06 Jan 2009 12:56 GMT >>>>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft >>>>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals". [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >*I'm speaking not about movies or TV, but from knowing a couple of cops >over the years. American military personnel do, too, not that the British military is any different. Clarity of communication must come first with the military and the police, not poetry.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
Maria C. - 06 Jan 2009 19:19 GMT > Maria C. wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > any different. Clarity of communication must come first with the > military and the police, not poetry. Good point.
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Mike Lyle - 06 Jan 2009 23:00 GMT >> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Good point. Yeah, like "Caucasian female" is so like totally more claritiferous than "white woman", and "male individual" than "man".
 Signature Mike.
Barbara Bailey - 06 Jan 2009 23:06 GMT "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in news:gk0nqt$dpq$1 @news.motzarella.org:
>>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Yeah, like "Caucasian female" is so like totally more claritiferous than > "white woman", and "male individual" than "man". If you're trying to tell other people what to lok for, it is, since "female" doesn't carry any subconscious baggage about her age or appearance to the people hearing it the way "woman", "lady", or "girl" do. And "male individual" is much harder to mis-hear over the radio as "male individualS" than "man" is to mis-hear as "men".
Robert Bannister - 07 Jan 2009 00:02 GMT >>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>> Anyway: Yes, police officers in the US do sometimes talked in a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Yeah, like "Caucasian female" is so like totally more claritiferous than > "white woman", and "male individual" than "man". Don't British police officers now use some unintelligible codes for body types?
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R H Draney - 07 Jan 2009 00:57 GMT Robert Bannister filted:
>Don't British police officers now use some unintelligible codes for body >types? Given up on the straightforward old "asthenic" and "pyknic", have they?...r
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the Omrud - 07 Jan 2009 08:30 GMT >>>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>>> Anyway: Yes, police officers in the US do sometimes talked in a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Don't British police officers now use some unintelligible codes for body > types? Not sure about that - they have codes for apparent ethnic origin. Nothing clever - something like 1 - 5. I think they are "IC" codes, but I don't know what that stands for.
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Ian Jackson - 07 Jan 2009 08:37 GMT >>>>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>>>> Anyway: Yes, police officers in the US do sometimes talked in a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Nothing clever - something like 1 - 5. I think they are "IC" codes, >but I don't know what that stands for. "Identity Codes" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC_codes http://www.tilehurst.net/infopool/ic.html There is also an "IQ0" (meaning obvious), but that one is not used by the police.
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Chuck Riggs - 07 Jan 2009 11:13 GMT >>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Yeah, like "Caucasian female" is so like totally more claritiferous than >"white woman", and "male individual" than "man". Consider for a moment, if your sarcasm will allow it, communicating over a noisy radio channel.
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Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
Mike Lyle - 07 Jan 2009 21:10 GMT >>>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Consider for a moment, if your sarcasm will allow it, communicating > over a noisy radio channel. I have done it, sometimes accompanied by bangs and other noises off. The fewer syllables, the better, on the whole. And I'll be as sarcastic as I please, thank you. But I was thinking of public utterances by policemen, such as issuing descriptions on television. On those occasions there's not much reason to say "a female in her thirties" instead of "a woman in her thirties" or "we'd like to interview these individuals" instead of "we'd like to interview these people". Even quite junior police officers are often pretty well educated these days, and don't need to talk in formulae.
 Signature Mike.
Chuck Riggs - 08 Jan 2009 15:25 GMT >>>>> Maria C. wrote, in part: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I have done it, sometimes accompanied by bangs and other noises off. The >fewer syllables, the better, on the whole. I spent most of my working years in this field, so I can safely say you have the story backwards. You aren't an engineer, so I suggest you stick with poetry, a noble track.
>And I'll be as sarcastic as I >please, thank you. But I was thinking of public utterances by policemen, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >are often pretty well educated these days, and don't need to talk in >formulae. When communicating over a noisy channel, as all channels are to one degree or another, repetition of a message aids in the transfer of information. See the following for an introduction to Shannon's Law, necessary for these discussions:
http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid7_gci856628,00.html
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
R H Draney - 08 Jan 2009 17:57 GMT Chuck Riggs filted:
>When communicating over a noisy channel, as all channels are to one >degree or another, repetition of a message aids in the transfer of >information. See the following for an introduction to Shannon's Law, >necessary for these discussions: > >http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid7_gci856628,00.html That's *very* confusing terminology...around here, "Shannon's Law" refers to firing a gun into the air....r
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Chuck Riggs - 06 Jan 2009 12:49 GMT >>>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft >>>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >referred to the speech of American police officers, not to that of the >happiness-pursuers at large. Cops have that quirk all right, but you're off the mark to accuse Americans of being hedonistic.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
Mike Lyle - 06 Jan 2009 23:03 GMT >>>>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft >>>>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals". [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Cops have that quirk all right, but you're off the mark to accuse > Americans of being hedonistic. That remark was unconstitutional. I'm surprised at you, Chuck.
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Skitt - 05 Jan 2009 19:45 GMT
>> We could all list favourite examples, but my own include my >> children's edition of /The Oxford Children's Encyclopedia/, which [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > impression Americans often call women "females" or that they usually > refer to people as "individuals"? You make me feel so young, You make me feel so spring has sprung ...
 Signature Skitt (AmE) a happy individual
Robert Bannister - 05 Jan 2009 23:32 GMT > I'm curious to know, Mike, which Daffy Duck publication gave you the > impression Americans often call women "females" or that they usually > refer to people as "individuals"? Puzzled me too. I thought of it as "police talk".
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Rob Bannister
Chuck Riggs - 06 Jan 2009 14:00 GMT >> I'm curious to know, Mike, which Daffy Duck publication gave you the >> impression Americans often call women "females" or that they usually >> refer to people as "individuals"? > >Puzzled me too. I thought of it as "police talk". Perhaps TV police talk, especially.
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Regards,
Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland
Richard Bollard - 08 Jan 2009 01:24 GMT >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >started by somebody who for some social reason couldn't be disagreed >with. I had a similar experience with a boss who was using an Auditor's template to create our annual financial statements. She insisted on calling the company "the economic entity" throughout coz that's what the template had. She wouldn't for a moment entertain the notion of using the economic entity's actual name instead.
She also called Ernst and Young "Earnest and Young" which fitted one of the auditors but not the company.
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Maria C. - 08 Jan 2009 21:13 GMT > She also called Ernst and Young "Earnest and Young" which fitted one > of the auditors but not the company. Where I used to work, one of the managers (in the accounting department) referred o "Earnest & Young" in a document I was editing. I told her it was "Ernst...." She didn't believe me, and said I was wrong. I shut up about it.
(Had it been in a document which bore my own name, I would have changed it without comment.)
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Hatunen - 03 Jan 2009 21:50 GMT > From the Guardian: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >said the south Yorkshire school, which is due to open on Monday, will >instead be called a "place for learning". Good grief, Charlie Brown...
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 03 Jan 2009 23:50 GMT > From the Guardian: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >said the south Yorkshire school, which is due to open on Monday, will >instead be called a "place for learning". I think this is a suitable occasion for a deliberate typo.
I hereby rename the establishment "The Watercliffe Meadow Palace of Learning".
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
R H Draney - 04 Jan 2009 03:43 GMT BrE filted:
>> From the Guardian: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >I hereby rename the establishment "The Watercliffe Meadow Palace of Learning". I was thinking more along the lines of "The Watercliffe Meadow Place of Learing"....r
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Maria C. - 04 Jan 2009 21:19 GMT > Peter Duncanson (BrE) filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I was thinking more along the lines of "The Watercliffe Meadow Place > of Learing"....r Limited exposure to Shakespeare, then? (And what about "Place of Larnin'"?)
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R H Draney - 05 Jan 2009 01:19 GMT Maria C. filted:
>> Peter Duncanson (BrE) filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Limited exposure to Shakespeare, then? (And what about "Place of >Larnin'"?) Without bothering the pronunciation, there's "Plaice of Learning"....
("Flounder, flounder, in the sea, prithee hearken unto me")....r
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Paul Wolff - 05 Jan 2009 10:53 GMT >Maria C. filted: >>> Peter Duncanson (BrE) filted: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Without bothering the pronunciation, there's "Plaice of Learning".... I don't think flatfish are much seen in schools.
>("Flounder, flounder, in the sea, prithee hearken unto me")....r  Signature Paul
Donna Richoux - 05 Jan 2009 11:30 GMT > >Without bothering the pronunciation, there's "Plaice of Learning".... > > I don't think flatfish are much seen in schools. > > > >("Flounder, flounder, in the sea, prithee hearken unto me")....r "...the Drawling-master was an old conger-eel, that used to come once a week: He taught us Drawling, Stretching, and Fainting in Coils."
Roland Hutchinson - 05 Jan 2009 17:51 GMT >> >Without bothering the pronunciation, there's "Plaice of Learning".... >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > "...the Drawling-master was an old conger-eel, that used to come once a > week: He taught us Drawling, Stretching, and Fainting in Coils." Wot no washing?
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