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School's out...

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LFS - 03 Jan 2009 12:32 GMT
From the Guardian:

Word 'school' is out for new £4.7m Sheffield primary
Governors say term has negative connotations

...The headteacher of Sheffield's Watercliffe Meadow, Linda Kingdon,
said the south Yorkshire school, which is due to open on Monday, will
instead be called a "place for learning".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jan/02/school

(I lived in Sheffield once upon a time. I encountered more strange
people there than anywhere else, in a lifetime of encountering strange
people.)

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Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 03 Jan 2009 14:05 GMT
> From the Guardian:
>
>Word 'school' is out for new £4.7m Sheffield primary
>Governors say term has negative connotations

Does the word "idiots" have enough negative connotations to be used of those
Governors?

>...The headteacher of Sheffield's Watercliffe Meadow, Linda Kingdon,
>said the south Yorkshire school, which is due to open on Monday, will
>instead be called a "place for learning".

Very unimaginative. What's wrong with "Learnery"?

I suppose "Primary Academy" might be a trifle posh.

>http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jan/02/school
>
>(I lived in Sheffield once upon a time. I encountered more strange
>people there than anywhere else, in a lifetime of encountering strange
>people.)

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

the Omrud - 03 Jan 2009 14:08 GMT
>> From the Guardian:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I suppose "Primary Academy" might be a trifle posh.

Early-Years University?

Signature

David

Paul Wolff - 03 Jan 2009 14:08 GMT
>From the Guardian:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>said the south Yorkshire school, which is due to open on Monday, will
>instead be called a "place for learning".

It will be interesting to see how well they cope with their self-imposed
handicap to clear communication.

From the sentences quoted above, the subject sounds first like a
primary, and then like a meadow.  They are going to have to indulge in
some awkward circumlocution when they want to avoid misunderstanding.  I
don't know that a primary is always going to be understood as a school,
and I am sure that a meadow isn't. And places for learning are legion.
They have a scarily narrow view if they think a place of learning has to
be a school.  I wonder if it is equipped with bicycle sheds.

Signature

Paul

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 03 Jan 2009 14:25 GMT
>>From the Guardian:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>It will be interesting to see how well they cope with their self-imposed
>handicap to clear communication.

I thought I would never write this, but perhaps there is a place in the world
for "corporate identity and branding" specialists.

> From the sentences quoted above, the subject sounds first like a
>primary, and then like a meadow.  They are going to have to indulge in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>They have a scarily narrow view if they think a place of learning has to
>be a school.  I wonder if it is equipped with bicycle sheds.

A lot of useful learning happens behind the bike sheds. But will the sheds be
renamed?

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

R H Draney - 03 Jan 2009 15:21 GMT
BrE filted:

>> From the sentences quoted above, the subject sounds first like a
>>primary, and then like a meadow.  They are going to have to indulge in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>A lot of useful learning happens behind the bike sheds. But will the sheds be
>renamed?

"I believe I saw Jenkins near the velocipedic reliquary"....r

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"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Philip Eden - 03 Jan 2009 16:33 GMT
"R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote :
> BrE filted:

>>> From the sentences quoted above, the subject sounds first like a
>>>primary, and then like a meadow.  They are going to have to indulge in
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> "I believe I saw Jenkins near the velocipedic reliquary"....r

Or what about simply "shed innocence"?

pe
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 03 Jan 2009 17:39 GMT
>"R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote :
>> BrE filted:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>pe

<applause>

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Nick - 03 Jan 2009 16:29 GMT
>>From the Guardian:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> learning has to be a school.  I wonder if it is equipped with bicycle
> sheds.

Everyone will be late - by the time their parents have said "get up,
you've got to go to [?] place of learning this morning" and asked "have
you got your place of learning books", they'll all be late for [?] place
of learning.

I wonder what article, if any, should be put where the [?]s are.
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Leslie Danks - 03 Jan 2009 16:43 GMT
[...]

> Everyone will be late - by the time their parents have said "get up,
> you've got to go to [?] place of learning this morning" and asked "have
> you got your place of learning books", they'll all be late for [?] place
> of learning.
>
> I wonder what article, if any, should be put where the [?]s are.

"t'"

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Les (BrE)

Django Cat - 03 Jan 2009 17:47 GMT
> Nick wrote

>Everyone will be late - by the time their parents have said "get up,
>you've got to go to [?] place of learning this morning" and asked "have
>you got your place of learning books",

"You're going to miss the place of learning bus".

DC
--
LFS - 03 Jan 2009 18:14 GMT
>> Nick wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> "You're going to miss the place of learning bus".

And will there be a "place of learning" uniform?

Presumably the people who have made this decision will describe
themselves as "place of learning" governors.

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Laura, who has never heard of the new Who
(emulate St. George for email)

musika - 03 Jan 2009 19:05 GMT
>>> Nick wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Presumably the people who have made this decision will describe
> themselves as "place of learning" governors.

And will they be reading _Place of Learning for Scandal_ and _Tom Brown's
Place of Learning Days_?

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Ray
UK

R H Draney - 03 Jan 2009 19:35 GMT
musika filted:

>>>> Nick wrote
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>And will they be reading _Place of Learning for Scandal_ and _Tom Brown's
>Place of Learning Days_?

"hot lesbian lolita place of learninggirls pr0n!!1!"

....r

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"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Robin Bignall - 03 Jan 2009 22:14 GMT
>musika filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>"hot lesbian lolita place of learninggirls pr0n!!1!"

Maybe we need to completely replace the word.  "Look mum, there's a
place of learning of dolphins".  That's a place of learning of thought
to consider.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

tony cooper - 03 Jan 2009 20:05 GMT
>>> Nick wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Presumably the people who have made this decision will describe
>themselves as "place of learning" governors.

Will they be "place leavers" or "learning leavers"?

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

John Kane - 03 Jan 2009 17:32 GMT
>  From the Guardian:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> said the south Yorkshire school, which is due to open on Monday, will
> instead be called a "place for learning".

Isn't this a bit otimistic?  It sometimes seems to me that "place of
weekday incarceration" would be more accurate, although "senior
babysitting place" might also be reasonable.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Adrian Bailey - 03 Jan 2009 19:46 GMT
> From the Guardian:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> (I lived in Sheffield once upon a time. I encountered more strange people
> there than anywhere else, in a lifetime of encountering strange people.)

I think the media is spreading some confusion here. Although the school
isn't referred to as a school within the school community, and the head
describes it as a place for learning, it is not referred to as "a place for
learning" as if that phrase is being used as a replacement for the word
"school". Capeesh?

Adrian
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 03 Jan 2009 20:35 GMT
>> From the Guardian:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>learning" as if that phrase is being used as a replacement for the word
>"school". Capeesh?

The sign outside the establishment does not use the word "school".
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/01/02/article-1104071-02EE0F0B000005DC-743_4
68x309.jpg


   Watercliffe Mead*w
  A place for learning

Sheffield City Council's list of schools does not use the word "school" in the
name of any of the schools. Presumably School is implied. The place in
question is listed as "Watercliffe Meadow Community Primary", which is not how
it appears on the sign.

Schools typically have the word "school" (or equivalent) in their names. This
one doesn't.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Paul Wolff - 03 Jan 2009 23:23 GMT
>On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 19:46:08 -0000, "Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>question is listed as "Watercliffe Meadow Community Primary", which is not how
>it appears on the sign.

When I type "primary" into my Google toolbar search box I am offered
these suggestions, in order:
       primary games
       primary resources
       primary colors
       primary source
       primary colours
       primary election
       primary health care
       primary key
       primary school
       primary biliary cirrhosis

To presume that "a primary" must be understood as a
you-know-what-but-I-can't-tell-you is absurd.  Why are people, and
especially jacks-in-office, so afraid of plain words?  Are they ashamed
to admit they have a school on their hands?  They should be proud, not
coy, that they offer fine education to their children.  If they do, that
is.

>Schools typically have the word "school" (or equivalent) in their names. This
>one doesn't.
Signature

Paul

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 03 Jan 2009 23:47 GMT
>>On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 19:46:08 -0000, "Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>coy, that they offer fine education to their children.  If they do, that
>is.

After posting that message I had another look at the relevant website. There
is a list of websites for many of the schools in Sheffield. The word School is
included in the names. The new "Watercliffe Meadow" is not yet on the list.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

R H Draney - 04 Jan 2009 03:42 GMT
Paul Wolff filted:

>When I type "primary" into my Google toolbar search box I am offered
>these suggestions, in order:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>        primary school
>        primary biliary cirrhosis

Googlism.com suggests the following definitions:

primary is lowest ever
primary is optional?
primary is committed to provide opportunities for our
primary is a mere one month away and despite every
primary is on the republican
primary is a small rural school six miles from
primary is more important than
primary is over
primary is certified
primary is under the direction of
primary is important
primary is also next week
primary is een school die staat in een gemengd woon
primary is open?
primary is quiet
primary is optional? from
primary is a mother lode
primary is?
primary is now available
primary is tuesday
primary is committed to provide opportunities for our pupils to achieve their
fullest and true potential – in line with the ministry of education
primary is one month away and despite every congressional seat being up for
grabs there has been little
primary is on republican side of the ballot
primary is a small rural school six miles from turriff
primary is the only primary school in macduff
primary is 'poor decision'
primary is more important than some realize
primary is between pat buchanan and john hagelin
primary is sept
primary is over saturday
primary is important to the north
primary is
primary is dave vs
primary is used for all com
primary is under the direction of donna attig
primary is important to bush and gore
primary is $1950
primary is best option
primary is also next week"
primary is more than just a critical first test of the candidates' support
primary is called a revolution and is different from a rotation
primary is recovered
primary is going to be a big win for carl
primary is moved to the second tuesday in march to coincide with town meeting
day
primary is situated in factreton
primary is lowered
primary is removed from the cell and readied for transport
primary is the organization of the church for children ages 3
primary is on feb
primary is difficult to treat
primary is in
primary is open? subject
primary is held first
primary is held between the top two vote getters if a candidate does not receive
a majority of the primary vote
primary is in state 2 after sending n1
primary is upon us and it appears as if something major is about to happen
primary is in no way responsible for loss of data; rivonia primary is in no way
responsible for theft of data; rivonia primary promises not to use your
primary is the crucial determinant in deciding who will hold those seats
primary is in march
primary is true else primary is false
primary is all but assured re
primary is tilted then the image that is reflected back to the secondary from
the star will not be
primary is an associate member of the independent schools association of
southern africa and a member of the southern african heads of
primary is first or sie wouldn't be primary
primary is one in which the voter may select a candi
primary is responsible for the problem until it is solved
primary is keen to help members locate their lost accounts through the ato's
primary is member owned
primary is treated
primary is the current selection
primary is the required
primary is held on the second tuesday in march of presidential election years
per §103
primary is deep
primary is energised and the iron core becomes strongly magnetic
primary is the village school of mgarr
primary is designed and optimized for professional voice
primary is achieving high standards in key subjects
primary is something that another body revolves about
primary is an evolved star with unchanged mass
primary is used to denote the units collated together to form a case
primary is the largest agricultural superannuation fund specifically focussed on
the retirement savings needs of rural and regional australians
primary is in the direction shown and growing
primary is almost 10 volts
primary is 0
primary is centered in the cell
primary is turned "on"
primary is yellow and the b star is blue
primary is a rare condition and it is unlikely that you will find yourself in
this kind of situation
primary is a little over
primary is found
primary is twice as bright as the secondary
primary is booting up
primary is the exclusionary process
primary is a program for children who are 5
primary is down
primary is used to hold a list of `
primary is for each of the political parties to elect their own candidates
primary is quiet race

....r

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"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Mike Lyle - 04 Jan 2009 18:13 GMT
[...]

> To presume that "a primary" must be understood as a
> you-know-what-but-I-can't-tell-you is absurd.  Why are people, and
> especially jacks-in-office, so afraid of plain words?  Are they
> ashamed to admit they have a school on their hands?  They should be
> proud, not coy, that they offer fine education to their children.  If
> they do, that is.
[...]
Quite so. Having witnessed analogous processes, I think they often start
with an office panic started by one person or very small group.

The panic-starter may be unversed in the skills of literary criticism
and textual analysis, and may himself have misunderstood something
somebody else said, or merely be a bit potty. If the starter or an early
adopter is a member of a group with whom for the time being that office
isn't allowed to argue--almost any group may sometimes qualify, but it's
usually one which can wave a banner with the strange device "Unfair
to..."--then the panic buttons will get smitten all round the department
before lunch. All-same warnings from legal departments or safety
officers taken out of context.

We could all list favourite examples, but my own include my children's
edition  of /The Oxford Children's Encyclopedia/, which called the
language of Germany "German", but the ancient tongue of Wales "Cymraeg"
throughout. British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft
Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals". I'll
defer to the learned opinion of our intellectual property guru, but it
seems to me at best redundant for a book to carry the odd message "The
moral right of the author has been asserted". These must all have been
started by somebody who for some social reason couldn't be disagreed
with.

Signature

Mike.

Paul Wolff - 04 Jan 2009 18:53 GMT
[snip perfectly good stuff]

>. I'll
>defer to the learned opinion of our intellectual property guru, but it
>seems to me at best redundant for a book to carry the odd message "The
>moral right of the author has been asserted". These must all have been
>started by somebody who for some social reason couldn't be disagreed
>with.

I say, Henry, it look s like a case for Sections 77 and 78 of the
Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1977.

77      Right to be identified as author or director
(1)     The author of a copyright literary, dramatic, musical or
       artistic work, and the director of a copyright film, has the
       right to be identified as the author or director of the work in
       the circumstances mentioned in this section; but the right is
       not infringed unless it has been asserted in accordance with
       section 78.
       [blah - miscellany of occasions when the right applies,
       essentially public showing or performance or distribution]

78      Requirement that right be asserted
(1)     A person does not infringe the right conferred by section 77
       (right to be identified as author or director) by doing any of
       the acts mentioned in that section unless the right has been
       asserted in accordance with the following provisions so as to
       bind him in relation to that act.
       [blah]

(2)     The right may be asserted generally, or [blah]

(4)     The persons bound by an assertion of the right under subsection
       (2) or (3) are—

       (b) in the case of an assertion under subsection (2)(b), anyone
       to whose notice the assertion is brought;

So the purpose of the printed statement of an assertion of moral right
is to bring the assertion to the notice of all who may read the book,
and thereby make the right binding on those who may be tempted to
infringe the right by failing to identify the author or director at the
proper time and in the proper way.

I suppose I could have summarised, but fell into copy/paste mode with an
old edition (so may have been amended, I suppose) in the hope it would
be less trouble.
Signature

Paul

Mike Lyle - 04 Jan 2009 23:34 GMT
> [snip perfectly good stuff]
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> an old edition (so may have been amended, I suppose) in the hope it
> would be less trouble.

[Far too serious to snip.]

But has anybody ever been successful in court with a plea that, for
example, the words " /To Right the Wrong/ E.Raser" in big friendly
letters on a title page had been insufficient to establish Ms Raser's
pretension to authorship?

(I'll leave the possibility that the assertion, whether implicit or
explicit, may be false, or even in effect defamatory, for the next
moot.)

Signature

Mike.

Garrett Wollman - 05 Jan 2009 04:34 GMT
>But has anybody ever been successful in court with a plea that, for
>example, the words " /To Right the Wrong/ E.Raser" in big friendly
>letters on a title page had been insufficient to establish Ms Raser's
>pretension to authorship?

This whole "moral rights" nonsense is, I believe, an invention of
Continental Europe (France? Germany?).  We never had it on this side
of the Pond until a few years back it was slipped into a trade
agreement that Congress enacted (but thankfully only for the visual
arts).

The "moral rights" doctrine usually includes, side-by-side with the
right to be identified as the creator of a work, the right *not* to be
identified as the creator of a work.  Moreover, "moral rights" are
inalienable; they cannot be surrendered to a third party, nor are they
extinguished by sale of the work as property rights are.  In the
U.S. context, this means, for example, that if you hire an artist to
paint a fresco on your ceiling, you may not alter it in any way,
except by totally obscuring or removing it, without the consent of the
original artist, even though the work might otherwise have been
considered a "work made for hire" and you are the owner of the
copyright.

-GAWollman

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Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Paul Wolff - 06 Jan 2009 18:05 GMT
>This whole "moral rights" nonsense is, I believe, an invention of
>Continental Europe (France? Germany?).  We never had it on this side
>of the Pond until a few years back it was slipped into a trade
>agreement that Congress enacted (but thankfully only for the visual
>arts).

It stems from the Berne Convention of 1886, which was indeed of European
origin.  The moral rights parts are in Article 6bis which possibly was
added in the Rome text of 1928.  If they had been in the original 1886
text this could have been numbered Article 7. But I don't think I have
much historical information easily to hand.

>The "moral rights" doctrine usually includes, side-by-side with the
>right to be identified as the creator of a work, the right *not* to be
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>considered a "work made for hire" and you are the owner of the
>copyright.
Signature

Paul

Paul Wolff - 05 Jan 2009 19:04 GMT
>Paul Wolff wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> I say, Henry, it look s like a case for Sections 77 and 78 of the
>> Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1977.

Whoops, 1988.

>But has anybody ever been successful in court with a plea that, for
>example, the words " /To Right the Wrong/ E.Raser" in big friendly
>letters on a title page had been insufficient to establish Ms Raser's
>pretension to authorship?

I don't know of any cases myself.  Moral rights aren't my daily bread.
I had a quick look in the usual places and found only an Oz case about a
painting.  "In August 2006, the Federal Magistrates Court decided the
outcome of the first moral rights case since the Commonwealth Government
introduced legislation protecting moral rights six years ago."

<http://www.artslaw.com.au/ArtLaw/Archive/06MoralRightsComeToCourt.asp>
<http://tinyurl.com/a96jme>

These cases aren't very thick on the ground.

In respect of "Alan Clark's Secret Political Diaries" which were printed
in the Evening Standard ten years ago, Alan Clark won on false
attribution of ownership.  But that's not the same thing either.

>(I'll leave the possibility that the assertion, whether implicit or
>explicit, may be false, or even in effect defamatory, for the next
>moot.)

Thank goodness.
Signature

Paul

Chuck Riggs - 05 Jan 2009 14:27 GMT
>[...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>started by somebody who for some social reason couldn't be disagreed
>with.

I'm curious to know, Mike, which Daffy Duck publication gave you the
impression Americans often call women "females" or that they usually
refer to people as "individuals"?
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Roland Hutchinson - 05 Jan 2009 18:08 GMT
>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft
>>Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals". I'll
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> impression Americans often call women "females" or that they usually
> refer to people as "individuals"?

It sounds rather more Runyonesque than Loonytooney to me.

Signature

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Mike Lyle - 05 Jan 2009 20:39 GMT
>>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft
>>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals".
[...]>>
>> I'm curious to know, Mike, which Daffy Duck publication gave you the
>> impression Americans often call women "females" or that they usually
>> refer to people as "individuals"?
>
> It sounds rather more Runyonesque than Loonytooney to me.

More Smokeybearesque than either. I should have made it clear that I
referred to the speech of American police officers, not to that of the
happiness-pursuers at large.

Signature

Mike.

Roland Hutchinson - 05 Jan 2009 21:00 GMT
>>>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft
>>>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals".
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> referred to the speech of American police officers, not to that of the
> happiness-pursuers at large.

Ten-four to that.

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Maria C. - 06 Jan 2009 00:18 GMT
>>>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft
>>>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals".
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> referred to the speech of American police officers, not to that of the
> happiness-pursuers at large.

"Smokeybearesque" makes me think of "Smokey [the] Bear" -- the mascot of
the United States Forest Service. He is not to be confused with Yogi
Bear -- who is not to be confused with Yogi Berra.

A drawing of Smokey Bear is at:
http://johnstodderinexile.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/smokey-the-bear-classic.jpg
or
http://tinyurl.com/2r8wy3

and a bio can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Bear

But by "Smokeybearesque," I assume you refer to the American police
officers whose hats sort of resemble Smokey's. Well, I don't really
/assume/ -- you actually said "American police officers." However, most
American police officers don't resemble Smokey.

Anyway: Yes, police officers in the US do sometimes talked in a stilted
manner.* That is, they talk the way they were taught to talk in
training. Do they ever slip? Of course. They're human beings, not gods
or robots. (And a small percentage of them are, most likely, total
jerks.)

*I'm speaking not about movies or TV, but from knowing a couple of cops
over the years.

Signature

Maria C.

Frank ess - 06 Jan 2009 01:08 GMT
>>>>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft
>>>>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> *I'm speaking not about movies or TV, but from knowing a couple of
> cops over the years.

I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
events depicted. Described, I mean.

I never asked the writers why they were taught to use the slightly
out-of-place-and-rhythm words. Pretty clear from my experience, most
of them didn't get enough instruction in Report Writing. Highway
Patrolmen (CHiPpies) were best at it. Of course CHP officers wear
leather and metal, and squeak and jingle when they walk, like
overdressed horses. Those words just seem less weird, coming from
them.

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Maria C. - 06 Jan 2009 02:46 GMT
> Maria C. wrote, in part:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
> include the euphemistic

Any examples of euphemisms that you recall?

> .....designations for various participants in the
> events depicted. Described, I mean.
>
> I never asked the writers why they were taught to use the slightly
> out-of-place-and-rhythm words. Pretty clear from my experience, most
> of them didn't get enough instruction in Report Writing.

I'm thinking that good language usage is not the (or even a) primary
requirement for a police officer.

> .....Highway
> Patrolmen (CHiPpies) were best at it. Of course CHP officers wear
> leather and metal, and squeak and jingle when they walk, like
> overdressed horses. Those words just seem less weird, coming from
> them.

"Squeak and jingle" just doesn't create a manly image for me. But many
cowboys of the movies may have squeaked and jingled and still got the
job done.

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Maria C.

Chuck Riggs - 06 Jan 2009 13:56 GMT
>> Maria C. wrote, in part:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>I'm thinking that good language usage is not the (or even a) primary
>requirement for a police officer.

It depends on what you mean by good. You want your police to
understand what is being said and to speak in an understandable
manner, which they largely do, not to create poetry.

>> .....Highway
>> Patrolmen (CHiPpies) were best at it. Of course CHP officers wear
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>cowboys of the movies may have squeaked and jingled and still got the
>job done.

What is manly? From my experience with them, neither cops, cowboys nor
military men appeared particularly manly, if "manly" means rugged,
brave, uncouth and uncaring, as in the stereotype.
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Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

John Varela - 07 Jan 2009 01:42 GMT
> "Squeak and jingle" just doesn't create a manly image for me.

The leather squeaks and the weapons jingle.  It evokes the image of
a Klingon warrior.

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Nick - 06 Jan 2009 07:47 GMT
> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> overdressed horses. Those words just seem less weird, coming from
> them.

There's an old joke of a bunch of riot police lined up behind their
shields, chanting "'ere we procede, 'ere we procede, 'ere we procede".
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John Varela - 07 Jan 2009 01:41 GMT
> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
> events depicted. Described, I mean.
>  
> I never asked the writers why they were taught to use the slightly
> out-of-place-and-rhythm words.

One good reason for using "female" is to avoid "girl" or "woman" and
risk offending a girl who thinks she's a woman, or a woman who
thinks she's still a girl.

Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me.

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Roland Hutchinson - 07 Jan 2009 04:45 GMT
>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me.

To make it clear that the person being described is a natural person rather
than a corporation, perhaps?  ("Observed three corporations loitering in a
suspicious manner outside of a pub...")

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Robin Bignall - 07 Jan 2009 22:07 GMT
>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>than a corporation, perhaps?  ("Observed three corporations loitering in a
>suspicious manner outside of a pub...")

That would work in BrE.  A "corporation" is a fat paunch, often
obtained by drinking lots of beer.  COD describes the usage as "dated,
humorous", but it was certainly used WIWAL.
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(BrE)
Herts, England

Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 00:19 GMT
>>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
>>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> obtained by drinking lots of beer.  COD describes the usage as "dated,
> humorous", but it was certainly used WIWAL.

I live and learn!

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 08 Jan 2009 02:30 GMT
>>>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
>>>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>I live and learn!

In BrE a corporation is also (per COED):

   a group of people elected to govern a city, town, or borough.

This lead to witticisms about "the Mayor and his corporation".

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Garrett Wollman - 08 Jan 2009 04:16 GMT
>In BrE a corporation is also (per COED):
>
>    a group of people elected to govern a city, town, or borough.

Technically the case in AmE as well, but very rarely used.  (And when
it is, normally seen only in the collocation "municipal corporation".)
But we do say "incorporated" (and mean different things by it in
different states) with reference to the establishment of local
government.

(Entering any municipality in Massachusetts via State Highway, there
is a white sign in the shape of an open book which reads "ENTERING",
the name of the city or town in large, friendly letters, and then
either "EST. XXXX" or "INC. YYYY" depending on whether the community
was established prior to its incorporation.[1]  Similarly, the Seal of
the City of Boston reads "SICUT PATRIBUS SIT DEUS NOBIS. / BOSTONIA
CONDITA A.D. 1630 / CIVITATIS REGIMINE DONATA A.D. 1822."

-GAWollman

[1] The law allowing for incorporation of cities dates to ca. 1820.
Today all towns and cities in Massachusetts are incorporated and equal
in status; the only differences are the form of government and the
formal style.

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Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 04:28 GMT
> Similarly, the Seal of
> the City of Boston reads "SICUT PATRIBUS SIT DEUS NOBIS.[...]"

The which being English'd: "WE ROOT FOR THE PATRIOTS[1] BECAUSE GOD IS ON
OUR SIDE"

[1] The New England Patriots, of the National Football League.

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Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 04:38 GMT
>>In BrE a corporation is also (per COED):
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> different states) with reference to the establishment of local
> government.

Indeed, the only governing "corporation" I recall from the Boston area is
governing body of our own beloved Massachusetts Institute of Technology
(they would be styled "the board of trustees" at most comparable American
institutions of tertiary education, though the corresponding body up the
river at ever-incomparable Harvard are "the President and Fellows"--the
oldest corporation in America among their other claims to fame-- who
apparently require to be overseen by "the Overseers").

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Ian Jackson - 08 Jan 2009 08:28 GMT
>>>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
>>>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>I live and learn!

Circa 1950, I certainly remember my mother telling my father that he was
getting a corporation (and the meaning was immediately obvious). I don't
think I've heard it since.
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Ian

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 08 Jan 2009 11:19 GMT
>>>>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
>>>>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>getting a corporation (and the meaning was immediately obvious). I don't
>think I've heard it since.

Yes. I don't think that that meaning or the local government one about which I
posted are well-known in the UK any longer.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
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Ian Jackson - 08 Jan 2009 15:55 GMT
>>>>>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
>>>>>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>Yes. I don't think that that meaning or the local government one about which I
>posted are well-known in the UK any longer.

Another word for a "paunch" (dating from the same era, I believe) is
"kite". Again, never heard for decades.
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Ian

Mike Lyle - 08 Jan 2009 18:40 GMT
[...]

> Another word for a "paunch" (dating from the same era, I believe) is
> "kite". Again, never heard for decades.

"...blow out yer kite
On boiled beef and carrots."

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Mike.

Ian Jackson - 08 Jan 2009 19:13 GMT
>[...]
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>"...blow out yer kite
>On boiled beef and carrots."

So presumably Cockney rhyming slang? But for what? In line 3, "Derby
Kel"(ly) is "belly". But what's "kite"?
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Ian

Mike Lyle - 08 Jan 2009 21:58 GMT
>> [...]
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> So presumably Cockney rhyming slang? But for what? In line 3, "Derby
> Kel"(ly) is "belly". But what's "kite"?

I don't know, and neither did Partridge. OED doesn't give it a mention
at all. Partridge /Hist Slang/, I see, has only the phrase "blow out the
kite", so maybe my "yer" was wrong.

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Mike.

Ian Jackson - 08 Jan 2009 22:21 GMT
>>> [...]
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>at all. Partridge /Hist Slang/, I see, has only the phrase "blow out the
>kite", so maybe my "yer" was wrong.

Close enough.

Boiled beef and carrots,
Boiled beef and carrots.
That's the stuff for your "Derby Kel"
It makes you fit and keeps you well.
Don't live like vegetarians,
On food they give to parrots.
From morn till night, blow out your kite,
On boiled beef and carrots!
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 08 Jan 2009 23:10 GMT
>>> [...]
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>at all. Partridge /Hist Slang/, I see, has only the phrase "blow out the
>kite", so maybe my "yer" was wrong.

There is a visible similarity between a swelling belly and the bellying cloth
of a kite.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

John Holmes - 09 Jan 2009 12:46 GMT
>> [...]
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> So presumably Cockney rhyming slang? But for what? In line 3, "Derby
> Kel"(ly) is "belly". But what's "kite"?

I'd never heard "kite" before. Most of the web references seem to
associate it with northern UK places: Northumbrian, geordie, Sunderland,
etc turn up in the first few pages of google hits. Therefore unlikely to
be rhyming slang.

This page looks interesting for comparative dialectologists:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm
(kite is in line 049)

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Ian Jackson - 09 Jan 2009 13:40 GMT
>>> [...]
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm
>(kite is in line 049)

That's an interesting site. I see that "kite" for "belly" is peculiar to
Northumberland. Being a native of them tharr parts, that explains why I
heard it in my youth. But I wonder how it ended up in a Harry Campion
Cockney music hall song?

I see the areas which speak some form of Dutch seem to favour what
sounds like "book" or "bowk", but means abdomen (says Babelfish). In
Northumbrian/Geordie, "bowk" means "belch", so maybe there is some
connection.
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Ian

Robert Bannister - 09 Jan 2009 21:43 GMT
> This page looks interesting for comparative dialectologists:
> http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm
> (kite is in line 049)

It is interesting, but somewhat spoiled by contrasting "du" with "you"
instead of "thou".

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Rob Bannister

Robin Bignall - 08 Jan 2009 22:13 GMT
>>>>>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
>>>>>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>Yes. I don't think that that meaning or the local government one about which I
>posted are well-known in the UK any longer.

Back in the 1940s and 50s most, if not all, northern and midlands
cities and large towns were run by a local corporation.  In Nottingham
it ran the state schools, bus service, refuse collection and maybe
also had some say in hospitals.  The Nottingham coat of arms was on
school exercise books, buses, dust carts and possibly ambulances.
Maybe police cars also had the CoA, I can't remember.  Water was often
called "corporation Brylcreem".
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Robin
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Herts, England

Ian Jackson - 08 Jan 2009 22:37 GMT
>>>>>>>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
>>>>>>>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>Maybe police cars also had the CoA, I can't remember.  Water was often
>called "corporation Brylcreem".

On the same theme, there was also a haircream called "Brilliantine"
(pronounced 'Brilliant-teen').
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/brilliantine

I recall that the water equivalent was "Tapaline". It appears that I'm
not wrong!
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:w6AKKpQTgKYJ:br.answers.yahoo.com/qu
estion/index%3Fqid%3D20080106120421AAfPGGb+tapaline%2Bwater&hl=en&ct=clnk
&cd=9&gl=uk>
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Ian

Amethyst Deceiver - 09 Jan 2009 13:46 GMT
> >>Circa 1950, I certainly remember my mother telling my father that he was
> >>getting a corporation (and the meaning was immediately obvious). I don't
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Maybe police cars also had the CoA, I can't remember.  Water was often
> called "corporation Brylcreem".

And "corporation pop".

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Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Robert Bannister - 07 Jan 2009 23:01 GMT
>> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
>> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>  risk offending a girl who thinks she's a woman, or a woman who
> thinks she's still a girl.

I can only presume you are correct on this. To me, "a female" sounds
demeaning, but women and girls I have asked about this think differently.

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Rob Bannister

John Varela - 09 Jan 2009 00:04 GMT
> Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me.

Label of a page-width photo on the front page of The Washington
Post, 8 January 2009:

<quote>

George H. W. Bush, Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and
Jimmy Carter gathered for lunch at the White House yesterday.  The
current and former chief executives offered recollections and
guidance to the president-elect, who said, "For me to have the
opportunity to get the advice, good counsel and fellowship with
these individuals is extraordinary, and I'm very grateful."  It was
the first White House gathering of all the living American
presidents since 1981.

</quote>

I wonder what word he could have used instead of "individuals".  
Gentlemen, men, fellows, guys, people, persons?  One thing is
certain: he definitely could have used "of" instead of "with".

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Maria C. - 09 Jan 2009 05:56 GMT
>> Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me.
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> I wonder what word he could have used instead of "individuals".

"Individuals" was fine, IMO.

> Gentlemen, men, fellows, guys, people, persons?  One thing is
> certain: he definitely could have used "of" instead of "with".

I see your point, but the phrase "fellowship with" sounds okay to me.
However, when you consider the earlier part of the sentence, "of" is the
better choice. So, he may have chosen, even if unconsciously, to use
what sounded best with the final word of the threesome ("advice, good
counsel and fellowship").

That sort of thing happens sometimes.

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Maria C.

Mike Lyle - 09 Jan 2009 16:11 GMT
>>> Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> "Individuals" was fine, IMO.
[...]

Like "female", it's potentially insulting in non-American English. Not
as bad as "female", but still risky.

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John Varela - 10 Jan 2009 02:12 GMT
> >> Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> "Individuals" was fine, IMO.

Not according to what everyone has been saying elsewhere in this
thread.

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Maria C. - 10 Jan 2009 03:28 GMT
>>>> Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Not according to what everyone has been saying elsewhere in this
> thread.

I must be an individualist.

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Maria C.

Chuck Riggs - 09 Jan 2009 10:36 GMT
>> Now, why "individual" is superior to "person" is beyond me.
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Gentlemen, men, fellows, guys, people, persons?  One thing is
>certain: he definitely could have used "of" instead of "with".

My vote is for "gentlemen".
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Richard Bollard - 08 Jan 2009 04:05 GMT
[...]

>> Anyway: Yes, police officers in the US do sometimes talked in a
>> stilted manner.* That is, they talk the way they were taught to
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>overdressed horses. Those words just seem less weird, coming from
>them.

Canberra police made a real effort recently to talk naturally. It was
a breath of fresh air. They don't "apprehend a male individual" but
"arrest a man".

Last night on the telly I heard a NSW cop talking about a child that
was killed by a dog. "We discovered an individual" etc. Weird. Maybe
talking in cop code distances them from judgmental thinking or
something.
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Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 04:25 GMT
> Canberra police made a real effort recently to talk naturally. It was
> a breath of fresh air. They don't "apprehend a male individual" but
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> talking in cop code distances them from judgmental thinking or
> something.

Protects them from overhelming emotional involvement, too, I would think, by
reducing the reporting to a routine.  They see some pretty horrible things
in the course of their work -- not every day, perhaps, but often enough
that it takes a toll, so distancing is a coping strategy.

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Donna Richoux - 08 Jan 2009 10:01 GMT
> > Canberra police made a real effort recently to talk naturally. It was
> > a breath of fresh air. They don't "apprehend a male individual" but
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> in the course of their work -- not every day, perhaps, but often enough
> that it takes a toll, so distancing is a coping strategy.

I think "male" and "female" frees them first from distinctions based on
age. To call someone a "man" bestows a certain dignity of maturity on
the person. What if the suspect (victim, etc) was at best a young man, a
teenager, on the verge of being a child, a boy? (A punk, a kid....?)  Is
the police officer supposed to grope around for a term that is
age-accurate without being offensive? What if only a glimpse of the
fleeing suspect was found, and the age is unsure? What if they call
someone a boy and he turns out to be full-grown, perhaps of a minority
race? "Male" avoids all that. It can be hard enough to know whether a
person is male or female these days.

Besides age, there are also the overtones of respectability, class, etc.
"Woman," "lady," "young woman," "young lady," and "girl" all have their
connotations.

I think it's good that cops strive to be neutral, even if some of you
laugh.

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Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 15:45 GMT
>> > Canberra police made a real effort recently to talk naturally. It was
>> > a breath of fresh air. They don't "apprehend a male individual" but
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> I think it's good that cops strive to be neutral, even if some of you
> laugh.

Yes, I agree that that is at work in the use of "male" and "female".

I was trying to say that their use of formulaic and objective language _in
general_ is (also) a psychological defense mechanism.

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Mike Lyle - 08 Jan 2009 18:38 GMT
[...]

>> Besides age, there are also the overtones of respectability, class,
>> etc. "Woman," "lady," "young woman," "young lady," and "girl" all
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Yes, I agree that that is at work in the use of "male" and "female".

It must be different in AmE, then: if I called a woman a "female" it
would be a serious insult. "Woman" in nearly all contexts is perfectly
neutral in my English. I accept the age problem, but I deal with it, so
they probably could, too. As I mentioned earlier, calling for help over
the police radio during an incident is a different kind of communication
from speaking to the television audience.

> I was trying to say that their use of formulaic and objective
> language _in general_ is (also) a psychological defense mechanism.

I hadn't considered that, and it's a good point. It can also, however,
be a psychological defence mechanism for bad behaviour.

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Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jan 2009 19:02 GMT
> [...]
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> I hadn't considered that, and it's a good point. It can also, however,
> be a psychological defence mechanism for bad behaviour.

Yes it can.  That's just one reason among many why looking after the
psychological well-being of police officers, for their own benefit and for
that of society, must be no simple matter.

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R H Draney - 08 Jan 2009 17:47 GMT
Donna Richoux filted:

>I think "male" and "female" frees them first from distinctions based on
>age. To call someone a "man" bestows a certain dignity of maturity on
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>I think it's good that cops strive to be neutral, even if some of you
>laugh.

Not all of them succeed...every once in a while I'll see a cop on the news
talking about someone brought in, and describing the preceding standoff by
saying "when we arrived, one gentleman was striking the other gentleman in the
head with a length of galvanized pipe"....r

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Chuck Riggs - 09 Jan 2009 10:48 GMT
>Donna Richoux filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>saying "when we arrived, one gentleman was striking the other gentleman in the
>head with a length of galvanized pipe"....r

What in the world is wrong with "man", "woman", "boy", "girl" and
"baby"?
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Near Dublin, Ireland

Chuck Riggs - 09 Jan 2009 10:44 GMT
>> > Canberra police made a real effort recently to talk naturally. It was
>> > a breath of fresh air. They don't "apprehend a male individual" but
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>I think it's good that cops strive to be neutral, even if some of you
>laugh.

How do you perceive "perpetrator", or "perp", and "alleged
perpetrator"? That's cop talk too, if the popular TV show and computer
game, "Law and Order", can be believed.
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John Holmes - 09 Jan 2009 12:55 GMT
> I think "male" and "female" frees them first from distinctions based
> on age. To call someone a "man" bestows a certain dignity of maturity
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> etc. "Woman," "lady," "young woman," "young lady," and "girl" all
> have their connotations.

Cross-reference to the definition of "youth" that Richard Yates and
Maria C. posted about recently, in the thread Re: youth:

>> ...Turning that
>> point on its head, however, I found this definition in the laws of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the facility/department. It also helps in deterring any charges of sex
> discrimination.

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John Holmes - 09 Jan 2009 12:27 GMT
> I've read a few thousand police reports. It was rare when they didn't
> include the euphemistic designations for various participants in the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> out-of-place-and-rhythm words. Pretty clear from my experience, most
> of them didn't get enough instruction in Report Writing.

I was once sitting on a tram on a route that served a place of rozzer
learning. Chap sitting next to me got a wad of what were evidently
reports written by the trainees, and proceeded to go through them with a
red pen. He was putting Xs through a lot of the worst examples of the
types of verbiage under discussion. And yet the graduates still write
that way, and police PR spokesmen talk that way too.

It's a disease.

Signature

Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

R H Draney - 06 Jan 2009 01:48 GMT
Maria C. filted:

>But by "Smokeybearesque," I assume you refer to the American police
>officers whose hats sort of resemble Smokey's. Well, I don't really
>/assume/ -- you actually said "American police officers." However, most
>American police officers don't resemble Smokey.

Ever own a CB radio?...r

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"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Maria C. - 06 Jan 2009 02:35 GMT
> Maria C. filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Ever own a CB radio?...r

I was actually engaged to a CBer back before I met Brian. He was Jewish,
not a trucker, and very much a city guy. However, CBers at that time
(early-to-mid-1960s) were not the same as in later years. Or so it
seemed/seems to me.

My son has a CB in his truck, but I've never heard him use it (never
having been on a cross-country haul with him*).

*And I probably never will accompany him because the company he works
for allows only immediate family (family members covered under his
insurance) as occasional passengers. It's all about liability. Well, I
can't fault that.

Signature

Maria C.

Chuck Riggs - 06 Jan 2009 14:05 GMT
>> Maria C. filted:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>insurance) as occasional passengers. It's all about liability. Well, I
>can't fault that.

A Jewish CBer? Are you sure, Maria? I can't imagine a Jew saying
"10-4, good buddy", any more than I can imagine myself saying it.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

CDB - 06 Jan 2009 15:21 GMT
[smokey what?]

> A Jewish CBer? Are you sure, Maria? I can't imagine a Jew saying
> "10-4, good buddy", any more than I can imagine myself saying it.

This guy might (That's "guy", OK?), although he doesn't here.
Mentions sheep, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzfei3jG_To&feature=related
Maria C. - 06 Jan 2009 19:14 GMT
>>> Maria C. filted:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> that time (early-to-mid-1960s) were not the same as in later years.
>> Or so it seemed/seems to me.

[...]

> A Jewish CBer? Are you sure, Maria?

What, a Jewish man can't have a hobby?

Of course, I'm sure. Well, I think I'm sure. Maybe it was some sort of
Civil Defense radio. Ham operator? Short Wave? I don't think so. All I
know is that there was equipment of a sort in his car (a '62 Corvair, a
GM product I didn't especially like no matter who was driving it), and
he had a mike and some sort of radio set-up (send and receive).

Now that I'm thinking about it, I sort of recall little triangles (with
"CD" -- or was it "CB"?-- written them) that appeared on radio dials in
those years. Maybe that had something to do with it. But maybe not.

See: http://the60sofficialsite.com/Radio%20Dial.jpg (The letters don't
show, but the triangles do.)

Anyway, I remember him saying KHH3167 and KLM2939 (I've probably
misremembered the 3-alpha-4-numeric handles.) I thought it all was sort
of cool.

But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later.

> .....I can't imagine a Jew saying "10-4, good buddy", any more than I
> can imagine myself saying it.

I think that phrase became popular after the early sixties. Maybe in the
1970s....

Signature

Maria C.

Mike Page - 06 Jan 2009 21:23 GMT
...> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later.

>> .....I can't imagine a Jew saying "10-4, good buddy", any more than I
>> can imagine myself saying it.
>
> I think that phrase became popular after the early sixties. Maybe in the
> 1970s....

Earlier than that. There was a cop series 'Highway Patrol' in the
fifties, where they said that all the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Patrol_(TV_series)

Signature

Mike Page
Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email.

Skitt - 06 Jan 2009 21:24 GMT
> ...> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Patrol_(TV_series)

Got your ears on, good buddy?
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Roland Hutchinson - 06 Jan 2009 22:39 GMT
>> ...> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Got your ears on, good buddy?

As I recall, they said "10-4" a lot on "Highway Patrol" but the "good buddy"
bit came in with the CBers.

Signature

Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.

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Maria C. - 07 Jan 2009 17:16 GMT
> As I recall, they said "10-4" a lot on "Highway Patrol" but the "good
> buddy" bit came in with the CBers.

I just posted a very similar comment. I guess my memory is still
intact -- it just doesn't remember sources too well.

Maria C.
Paul Wolff - 07 Jan 2009 18:23 GMT
>Roland Hutchinson wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I just posted a very similar comment. I guess my memory is still intact
>-- it just doesn't remember sources too well.

Mine still works, but more slowly, and the indexing system is a bit
broken.

But to the point: "ten-four" in Highway Patrol triggers an echo of
"twenty-one fifty" somewhere in my head.  I never did know what they
meant, but that didn't seem to interfere with the entertainment.
Signature

Paul

Maria C. - 07 Jan 2009 17:15 GMT
>> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Patrol_(TV_series)

I thought they said just "Ten-Four" (10-4). No "good buddy" added on.
That came from truckers, later on. (Didn't it?)

Maria C.
Losing (or having lost) her once "excellent" memory.
Barbara Bailey - 07 Jan 2009 17:24 GMT
"Maria C." <noname@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:Rq59l.880$%54.359
@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com:

>>> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I thought they said just "Ten-Four" (10-4). No "good buddy" added on.
> That came from truckers, later on. (Didn't it?)

10-4 was carried over from police 10-code radio usage. Remember that before
the civilian CB craze, truckers were already using them and were monitoring
police calls for early warning of traffic problems or speed traps. The
police have used 10-code since it was developed in the 1930's; the practice
of starting any broadcast with "10-" was to get around that fact that the
first syllable of a radio call was likely to be garbled.
Ian Jackson - 07 Jan 2009 17:39 GMT
>"Maria C." <noname@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:Rq59l.880$%54.359
>@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>of starting any broadcast with "10-" was to get around that fact that the
>first syllable of a radio call was likely to be garbled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-code
[I, too, remember Broderick Crawford (Highway Patrol, 1950s American TV
series) saying "10-4" (many, many, many times).]
Signature

Ian

Maria C. - 07 Jan 2009 19:02 GMT
>>>>> .....I can't imagine a Jew saying "10-4, good buddy", any more
>>>>> than I can imagine myself saying it.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> get around that fact that the first syllable of a radio call was
> likely to be garbled.

Yeahbut... I was referring to "Ten-four, good buddy" not just
"Ten-four." (I used to watch Highway Patrol, too. Everyone I knew then
did.) I'm thinking that truckers, or at least non-police types, added
the "good buddy."

Signature

Maria C.

Chuck Riggs - 08 Jan 2009 15:02 GMT
>>>>>> .....I can't imagine a Jew saying "10-4, good buddy", any more
>>>>>> than I can imagine myself saying it.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>did.) I'm thinking that truckers, or at least non-police types, added
>the "good buddy."

Weren't there a whole series of Burt Reynold's car-chase films
containing such memorable lines as "Put the pedal to the metal" and
"10-4, Good buddy!"?
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

R H Draney - 08 Jan 2009 17:55 GMT
Chuck Riggs filted:

>Weren't there a whole series of Burt Reynold's car-chase films
>containing such memorable lines as "Put the pedal to the metal" and
>"10-4, Good buddy!"?

"Smokey and the Bandit" (1977) and "Cannonball Run" (1981) were preceded by a
popular 1975 recording by Bill Fries:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYS0Epyyu3k

....r

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"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

the Omrud - 08 Jan 2009 18:00 GMT
> Chuck Riggs filted:
>> Weren't there a whole series of Burt Reynold's car-chase films
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYS0Epyyu3k

Ah, no, the song "Convoy" was the basis for the 1978 movie, er,
"Convoy".   Kristofferson and MacGraw, directed by Peckinpah (so it's
really a cowboy film).

Signature

David

Roland Hutchinson - 06 Jan 2009 21:27 GMT
> Now that I'm thinking about it, I sort of recall little triangles (with
> "CD" -- or was it "CB"?-- written them) that appeared on radio dials in
> those years. Maybe that had something to do with it. But maybe not.

No, those were just the emergency-broadcast ("Civil Defense") frequencies on
the regular AM radio dial. 640 and 1240 kHz if memory serves.  Though of
course in those days we still called them kilocycles.

Oh, here we go:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CONELRAD

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Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.

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John Varela - 07 Jan 2009 01:55 GMT
> >> I was actually engaged to a CBer back before I met Brian. He was
> >> Jewish, not a trucker, and very much a city guy. However, CBers at
> >> that time (early-to-mid-1960s) were not the same as in later years.
> >> Or so it seemed/seems to me.

CB was around in the early 60s, but it didn't become a fad until
cheap solid state units became available about a decade later.  The
1973 gas shortage and the national 55 MPH speed limit were what
really set it off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_radio

> > A Jewish CBer? Are you sure, Maria?
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> misremembered the 3-alpha-4-numeric handles.) I thought it all was sort
> of cool.

Those would have been genuine ham radio call letters, and the CD was
for Civilian Defense.  Surely you've heard of ham radio.  If not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_radio

> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I think that phrase became popular after the early sixties. Maybe in the
> 1970s....

...when the truckers adopted CB radio as described in the Wikipaedia
article.

Signature

John Varela
Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email

Frank ess - 07 Jan 2009 06:00 GMT
[ ... ]

>> Anyway, I remember him saying KHH3167 and KLM2939 (I've probably
>> misremembered the 3-alpha-4-numeric handles.) I thought it all was
>> sort of cool.
>
> Those would have been genuine ham radio call letters, and the CD was
> for Civilian Defense.  Surely you've heard of ham radio.  If not:

I was CBing in the early 70s, one of many (but not a majority, I bet)
who actually applied for and received a US-govt-issued CB Radio
License. Mine was KSE7017.

The govt lost control of the Citizen (and some adjacent) Bands, and it
seems to me the solution was to throw in the towel. I lost interest
when the "air" became so crowded and "skip"*-polluted it was no longer
dependably useful. I have quite a bit of then-adanced equipment, in
case something happens to make it worthhwile again.

* skip: a condition of atmospherics that traps and channels radio
waves that would ordinarily escape into space or dissipate, so that
signals have extraordinary reach. I once had a nice 3.75-watt
conversation with a fellow CBer in Brazil.

Signature

Frank "Voice of the Tijuana Border" ess

Maria C. - 07 Jan 2009 17:34 GMT
> Maria C. wrote, in part:

>> Of course, I'm sure. Well, I think I'm sure. Maybe it was some sort
>> of Civil Defense radio. Ham operator? Short Wave? I don't think so.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Those would have been genuine ham radio call letters, and the CD was
> for Civilian Defense.  Surely you've heard of ham radio.

See my first paragraph above (the one beginning with "Of course." I was
aware of Ham radio, just not familiar with it.

If not:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_radio
>
>> But as I said, CBers then were not like they were later.

[re 10-4 Good Buddy]:
>> I think that phrase became popular after the early sixties. Maybe in
>> the 1970s....
>
> ...when the truckers adopted CB radio as described in the Wikipaedia
> article.

Yes. I think "Breaker Breaker One-Nine" was used a lot then (1970s).

Thanks for the reference.

Signature

Maria C.

Chuck Riggs - 06 Jan 2009 12:56 GMT
>>>>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft
>>>>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals".
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>*I'm speaking not about movies or TV, but from knowing a couple of cops
>over the years.

American military personnel do, too, not that the British military is
any different. Clarity of communication must come first with the
military and the police, not poetry.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Maria C. - 06 Jan 2009 19:19 GMT
> Maria C. wrote, in part:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> any different. Clarity of communication must come first with the
> military and the police, not poetry.

Good point.

Signature

Maria C.

Mike Lyle - 06 Jan 2009 23:00 GMT
>> Maria C. wrote, in part:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Good point.

Yeah, like "Caucasian female" is so like totally more claritiferous than
"white woman", and "male individual" than "man".

Signature

Mike.

Barbara Bailey - 06 Jan 2009 23:06 GMT
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in news:gk0nqt$dpq$1
@news.motzarella.org:

>>> Maria C. wrote, in part:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Yeah, like "Caucasian female" is so like totally more claritiferous than
> "white woman", and "male individual" than "man".

If you're trying to tell other people what to lok for, it is, since
"female" doesn't carry any subconscious baggage about her age or appearance
to the people hearing it the way "woman", "lady", or "girl" do. And "male
individual" is much harder to mis-hear over the radio as "male
individualS" than "man" is to mis-hear as "men".
Robert Bannister - 07 Jan 2009 00:02 GMT
>>> Maria C. wrote, in part:
>>>> Anyway: Yes, police officers in the US do sometimes talked in a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Yeah, like "Caucasian female" is so like totally more claritiferous than
> "white woman", and "male individual" than "man".

Don't British police officers now use some unintelligible codes for body
types?

Signature

Rob Bannister

R H Draney - 07 Jan 2009 00:57 GMT
Robert Bannister filted:

>Don't British police officers now use some unintelligible codes for body
>types?

Given up on the straightforward old "asthenic" and "pyknic", have they?...r

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"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

the Omrud - 07 Jan 2009 08:30 GMT
>>>> Maria C. wrote, in part:
>>>>> Anyway: Yes, police officers in the US do sometimes talked in a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Don't British police officers now use some unintelligible codes for body
> types?

Not sure about that - they have codes for apparent ethnic origin.
Nothing clever - something like 1 - 5.  I think they are "IC" codes, but
I don't know what that stands for.

Signature

David

Ian Jackson - 07 Jan 2009 08:37 GMT
>>>>> Maria C. wrote, in part:
>>>>>> Anyway: Yes, police officers in the US do sometimes talked in a
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Nothing clever - something like 1 - 5.  I think they are "IC" codes,
>but I don't know what that stands for.

"Identity Codes"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC_codes
http://www.tilehurst.net/infopool/ic.html
There is also an "IQ0" (meaning obvious), but that one is not used by
the police.
Signature

Ian

Chuck Riggs - 07 Jan 2009 11:13 GMT
>>> Maria C. wrote, in part:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Yeah, like "Caucasian female" is so like totally more claritiferous than
>"white woman", and "male individual" than "man".

Consider for a moment, if your sarcasm will allow it, communicating
over a noisy radio channel.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Mike Lyle - 07 Jan 2009 21:10 GMT
>>>> Maria C. wrote, in part:
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Consider for a moment, if your sarcasm will allow it, communicating
> over a noisy radio channel.

I have done it, sometimes accompanied by bangs and other noises off. The
fewer syllables, the better, on the whole. And I'll be as sarcastic as I
please, thank you. But I was thinking of public utterances by policemen,
such as issuing descriptions on television. On those occasions there's
not much reason to say "a female in her thirties" instead of "a woman in
her thirties" or "we'd like to interview these individuals" instead of
"we'd like to interview these people". Even quite junior police officers
are often pretty well educated these days, and don't need to talk in
formulae.

Signature

Mike.

Chuck Riggs - 08 Jan 2009 15:25 GMT
>>>>> Maria C. wrote, in part:
>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>I have done it, sometimes accompanied by bangs and other noises off. The
>fewer syllables, the better, on the whole.

I spent most of my working years in this field, so I can safely say
you have the story backwards. You aren't an engineer, so I suggest you
stick with poetry, a noble track.

>And I'll be as sarcastic as I
>please, thank you. But I was thinking of public utterances by policemen,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>are often pretty well educated these days, and don't need to talk in
>formulae.

When communicating over a noisy channel, as all channels are to one
degree or another, repetition of a  message aids in the transfer of
information. See the following for an introduction to Shannon's Law,
necessary for these discussions:

http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid7_gci856628,00.html
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

R H Draney - 08 Jan 2009 17:57 GMT
Chuck Riggs filted:

>When communicating over a noisy channel, as all channels are to one
>degree or another, repetition of a  message aids in the transfer of
>information. See the following for an introduction to Shannon's Law,
>necessary for these discussions:
>
>http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid7_gci856628,00.html

That's *very* confusing terminology...around here, "Shannon's Law" refers to
firing a gun into the air....r

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"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Chuck Riggs - 06 Jan 2009 12:49 GMT
>>>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft
>>>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals".
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>referred to the speech of American police officers, not to that of the
>happiness-pursuers at large.

Cops have that quirk all right, but you're off the mark to accuse
Americans of being hedonistic.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Mike Lyle - 06 Jan 2009 23:03 GMT
>>>>> British and other copper-speak now imitates a daft
>>>>> Americanism in calling women "females", and people "individuals".
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Cops have that quirk all right, but you're off the mark to accuse
> Americans of being hedonistic.

That remark was unconstitutional. I'm surprised at you, Chuck.

Signature

Mike.

Skitt - 05 Jan 2009 19:45 GMT

>> We could all list favourite examples, but my own include my
>> children's edition  of /The Oxford Children's Encyclopedia/, which
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> impression Americans often call women "females" or that they usually
> refer to people as "individuals"?

You make me feel so young,
You make me feel so spring has sprung ...

Signature

Skitt (AmE)
a happy individual

Robert Bannister - 05 Jan 2009 23:32 GMT
> I'm curious to know, Mike, which Daffy Duck publication gave you the
> impression Americans often call women "females" or that they usually
> refer to people as "individuals"?

Puzzled me too. I thought of it as "police talk".
Signature


Rob Bannister

Chuck Riggs - 06 Jan 2009 14:00 GMT
>> I'm curious to know, Mike, which Daffy Duck publication gave you the
>> impression Americans often call women "females" or that they usually
>> refer to people as "individuals"?
>
>Puzzled me too. I thought of it as "police talk".

Perhaps TV police talk, especially.
Signature


Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Richard Bollard - 08 Jan 2009 01:24 GMT
>[...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>started by somebody who for some social reason couldn't be disagreed
>with.

I had a similar experience with a boss who was using an Auditor's
template to create our annual financial statements. She insisted on
calling the company "the economic entity" throughout coz that's what
the template had. She wouldn't for a moment entertain the notion of
using the economic entity's actual name instead.

She also called Ernst and Young "Earnest and Young" which fitted one
of the auditors but not the company.
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Maria C. - 08 Jan 2009 21:13 GMT
> She also called Ernst and Young "Earnest and Young" which fitted one
> of the auditors but not the company.

Where I used to work, one of the managers (in the accounting department)
referred o "Earnest & Young" in a document I was editing. I told her it
was "Ernst...." She didn't believe me, and said I was wrong. I shut up
about it.

(Had it been in a document which bore my own name, I would have changed
it without comment.)

Signature

Maria C.

Hatunen - 03 Jan 2009 21:50 GMT
> From the Guardian:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>said the south Yorkshire school, which is due to open on Monday, will
>instead be called a "place for learning".

Good grief, Charlie Brown...

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  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 03 Jan 2009 23:50 GMT
> From the Guardian:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>said the south Yorkshire school, which is due to open on Monday, will
>instead be called a "place for learning".

I think this is a suitable occasion for a deliberate typo.

I hereby rename the establishment "The Watercliffe Meadow Palace of Learning".

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

R H Draney - 04 Jan 2009 03:43 GMT
BrE filted:

>> From the Guardian:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>I hereby rename the establishment "The Watercliffe Meadow Palace of Learning".

I was thinking more along the lines of "The Watercliffe Meadow Place of
Learing"....r

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"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Maria C. - 04 Jan 2009 21:19 GMT
> Peter Duncanson (BrE) filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I was thinking more along the lines of "The Watercliffe Meadow Place
> of Learing"....r

Limited exposure to Shakespeare, then? (And what about "Place of
Larnin'"?)

Signature

Maria C.

R H Draney - 05 Jan 2009 01:19 GMT
Maria C. filted:

>> Peter Duncanson (BrE) filted:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Limited exposure to Shakespeare, then? (And what about "Place of
>Larnin'"?)

Without bothering the pronunciation, there's "Plaice of Learning"....

("Flounder, flounder, in the sea, prithee hearken unto me")....r

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"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Paul Wolff - 05 Jan 2009 10:53 GMT
>Maria C. filted:
>>> Peter Duncanson (BrE) filted:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Without bothering the pronunciation, there's "Plaice of Learning"....

I don't think flatfish are much seen in schools.

>("Flounder, flounder, in the sea, prithee hearken unto me")....r
Signature

Paul

Donna Richoux - 05 Jan 2009 11:30 GMT
> >Without bothering the pronunciation, there's "Plaice of Learning"....
>
> I don't think flatfish are much seen in schools.
> >
> >("Flounder, flounder, in the sea, prithee hearken unto me")....r

"...the Drawling-master was an old conger-eel, that used to come once a
week: He taught us Drawling, Stretching, and Fainting in Coils."
Roland Hutchinson - 05 Jan 2009 17:51 GMT
>> >Without bothering the pronunciation, there's "Plaice of Learning"....
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> "...the Drawling-master was an old conger-eel, that used to come once a
> week: He taught us Drawling, Stretching, and Fainting in Coils."

Wot no washing?

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