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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009Translation of names
It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish television routinely translates the name of the British Queen as "Isabel", and Polish friends of mine, in Polish-language conversation, will refer to "Prince Karol" rather than Prince Charles, the British media never refer to "King John Charles of Spain", or "King Baldwin of the Belgians", or "Francis Mitterand". Is this governed by a set of (unwritten) rules? > It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish television > routinely translates the name of the British Queen as "Isabel", and > Polish friends of mine, in Polish-language conversation, will refer to > "Prince Karol" rather than Prince Charles, the British media never > refer to "King John Charles of Spain", or "King Baldwin of the > Belgians", or "Francis Mitterand". Not so long ago, though, such translations were common practice. You may remember a key line in the 1951 movie of "The African Queen", when the captain of the ship Louisa invokes the authority vested in him by "Kaiser William II." Of course, he was a German speaking in English in the scene, so conceivably the line was supposed to reflect the way Germans speaking English would put it. But I think native English-speakers would one have said William too. "Kaiser William II" still gets about 20,000 hits on Google. Another example is how Hitler's first name often used to be spelled "Adolph" in English. > Is this governed by a set of (unwritten) rules? Whatever they are, they seem to have changed.  SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Yet Another Wonderful Novelty -- YAWN!" msb@vex.net -- Liam Quin My text in this article is in the public domain. >> It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish television >> routinely translates the name of the British Queen as "Isabel", and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >English-speakers would one have said William too. "Kaiser William II" >still gets about 20,000 hits on Google. William is something of a special case, since that (or "Willy") is the form of his first name which he used himself when writing in English, which he did a great deal. English was by then the international language of royalty; William's correspondance with his cousin Tsar Nicholas II (another anglicised name), which is all in English, is usually referred to as the "Willy-Nicky letters". >Another example is how Hitler's first name often used to be spelled >"Adolph" in English. > >> Is this governed by a set of (unwritten) rules? > >Whatever they are, they seem to have changed. Yup. It's been a slow process, though. The various Kings of France who had always been "Lewis" in English became "Louis" in the mid 19th century. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" Gareth Hughes: >>> It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish television >>> routinely translates the name of the British Queen as "Isabel", and >>> Polish friends of mine, in Polish-language conversation, will refer to >>> "Prince Karol" rather than Prince Charles, the British media never >>> refer to "King John Charles of Spain" ... Mark Brader: >> Not so long ago, though, such translations were common practice. >> You may remember a key line in the 1951 movie of "The African Queen", >> when the captain of the ship Louisa invokes the authority vested in >> him by "Kaiser William II." Of course, he was a German speaking in >> English in the scene... > William is something of a special case, since that (or "Willy") is the > form of his first name which he used himself when writing in English, > which he did a great deal. ... Interesting; I did not know that. >>> Is this governed by a set of (unwritten) rules? >> Whatever they are, they seem to have changed. > Yup. It's been a slow process, though. The various Kings of France who > had always been "Lewis" in English became "Louis" in the mid 19th > century. Well, these days "Louis" *is* an English name too. Consider Lord Louis Mountbatten (1900-79), or for that matter, my father Stuart Louis Brader (1923-). Both were born in England. I can't think of any famous British people offhand with the given name Lewis. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto Rocket, 1829: The first 30 mph train. msb@vex.net TGV-A, 1989: The first 300 mph train. My text in this article is in the public domain. > Gareth Hughes: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > My text in this article is in the public domain. Inspector Morse's sidekick? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspector_Lewis but that was a surname. Is Lewis really a translation of Louis / Ludwig? Another example to illustrate my first post - Pope John Paul II was never Ioannes Paulus (or Jan Pawel) in the UK media (so translation is clearly acceptable with Papal names), but Cardinal Karol Wojtyla was never Charles Wojtyla. It just interests me that there are obviously European-language cultures where the idea of a Queen called "Elizabeth", for example, makes no sense, but one called "Isabel" does, with the result, presumably, that people in those cultures (even if they speak English) perhaps gain a skewed impression of the English language. ... > Another example to illustrate my first post - Pope John Paul II was > never Ioannes Paulus (or Jan Pawel) in the UK media (so translation is > clearly acceptable with Papal names), but Cardinal Karol Wojtyla was > never Charles Wojtyla. ... I've always seen popes' names and Catholic saints' names translated (where a translation exists). This may have to do with the catholicity of the Catholic Church. I have no idea when the practice began of translating popes' papal names but not cardinals' etc. names. -- Jerry Friedman > ... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > catholicity of the Catholic Church. I have no idea when the practice > began of translating popes' papal names but not cardinals' etc. names. Maybe if he'd been a contributor to AUE he'd have wanted to be called Chuck Wojtyla. Signatureathel On Jan 8, 1:10�pm, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote: > On 2009-01-06 22:20:24 +0100, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" > <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> said: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > -- > athel Why do you think the late Pope would have wanted to emulate our Chuck? Your correct reply should've been "Maybe if our distinguished AUE contributor were the Pope he'd have wanted to be called "Chuck" i.s.o. "Carol", "Charles" or "Karl". But I'm not so sure if the verb concordance is correct. > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > presumably, that people in those cultures (even if they speak English) > perhaps gain a skewed impression of the English language. I'm not sure I understand your logic here: why should a Queen Elizabeth not make sense in some cultures? Nonetheless, you may be right: in Chile, for example, newspapers write about la Reina Isabel but about Elizabeth Taylor. Signatureathel >Gareth Hughes: >>>> It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish television [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >Louis Brader (1923-). Both were born in England. I can't think >of any famous British people offhand with the given name Lewis. You must have missed a recent thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Hamilton Lewis Carl Davidson Hamilton MBE (born in Stevenage; 7 January 1985) is a British Formula One racing driver from England, currently racing for the McLaren Mercedes team and the youngest ever Formula One World Champion. Hamilton was named after the American sprinter Carl Lewis. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Don Aitken writes: >>>Gareth Hughes: >>>> It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish television >>>> routinely translates the name of the British Queen as "Isabel", and >>>> Polish friends of mine, in Polish-language conversation, will refer to >>>> "Prince Karol" rather than Prince Charles >>The various Kings of France who >> had always been "Lewis" in English became "Louis" in the mid 19th >> century. >Well, these days "Louis" *is* an English name too. Consider Lord >Louis Mountbatten (1900-79), or for that matter, my father Stuart >Louis Brader (1923-). Both were born in England. I can't think >of any famous British people offhand with the given name Lewis. Artificially to be sure, Lewis Carroll ties this together. SignaturePaul >> Don Aitken writes: >>>> Gareth Hughes: >>>>> It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish >>>>> television routinely translates the name of the British Queen >>>>> as "Isabel", and Polish friends of mine, in Polish-language >>>>> conversation, will refer to "Prince Karol" rather than Prince >>>>> Charles >>> The various Kings of France who >>> had always been "Lewis" in English became "Louis" in the mid 19th >>> century. >> Well, these days "Louis" *is* an English name too. Consider Lord >> Louis Mountbatten (1900-79), or for that matter, my father Stuart >> Louis Brader (1923-). Both were born in England. I can't think >> of any famous British people offhand with the given name Lewis. > Artificially to be sure, Lewis Carroll ties this together. Yes, and ties them both to "Lutwidge", which is not so artificial. Where did the "c" in "Clovis" come from, and where did it go? Ah: Google is my friend: "C"lodovicus from "H"ludwig, Loud (in?) Battle. Like Alcuin from Ealhwine. >Paul Wolff wrote: >>> Don Aitken writes: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Google is my friend: "C"lodovicus from "H"ludwig, Loud (in?) Battle. >Like Alcuin from Ealhwine. Change: where would we be without it? Hludwig reminded me of "Sumer is icumen in, Lhude sing cuccu". The H has shifted. Pretty picture of the MS at <http://www.soton.ac.uk/~wpwt/harl978/sumerms.htm> Checks 'loud' in dictionary: OE hlud from an Indo-European root meaning 'hear' shared by Gk kluein 'hear', klutos 'famous', and Lat. cluere 'be famous'. Clovis is perhaps not so surprising. I carelessly assume a connection between hlud -> lhude and the habit of the wandering H in 'hwanne' to 'when' and in similar hw -> wh words. SignaturePaul [does it matter where you stand in the choir, if you're not going to sing?] > I carelessly assume a connection between hlud -> lhude and the habit > of the wandering H in 'hwanne' to 'when' and in similar hw -> wh > words. Those damn Flemish clerks, isn't it, with their ths and their ghs. > [does it matter where you stand in the choir, if you're not going to > sing?] [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Those damn Flemish clerks, isn't it, with their ths and their ghs. It was their type matrices that sealed the deal a couple of centuries later, I think. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >[does it matter where you stand in the choir, if you're not going to >sing?] [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Those damn Flemish clerks, isn't it, with their ths and their ghs. I hope they could tell their hawks from their cuckoos. SignaturePaul [...] > Change: where would we be without it? Hludwig reminded me of "Sumer > is icumen in, Lhude sing cuccu". The H has shifted. > > Pretty picture of the MS at > <http://www.soton.ac.uk/~wpwt/harl978/sumerms.htm> [...] Wery 'andsome, Samivel. I wonder if the putative original owner was called "Shagger William" by his fellow-monks, or if they were /all/ so at it that Bro Wm of Winchester was distinguished only by his propensity for getting caught. And his musical ear, natch. And perhaps "lhude" was actually a 13C Bowdlerism for "lewde": the cuckoo does have a reputation, after all. SignatureMike. Mark Brader wrote, in <e_OdneyzOKbzGP_UnZ2dnUVZ_sHinZ2d@vex.net> on Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:10:54 -0600: > Gareth Hughes: > >>> It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish television [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Louis Brader (1923-). Both were born in England. I can't think > of any famous British people offhand with the given name Lewis. Although a pen name, Lewis Carroll qualifies. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > [ ... ] > I can't think > of any famous British people offhand with the given name Lewis. I doubt whether he's famous to people who are not biologists, but there is always Lewis Wolpert. (Actually he was originally South African, but he's been in the UK for very many years.) Signatureathel > I can't think of any famous British people offhand with the given name Lewis. Lewis Hamilton? Mike M Mike wrote on Thu, 8 Jan 2009 06:34:57 -0800 (PST): >> I can't think of any famous British people offhand with the >> given name Lewis. >> > Lewis Hamilton? Lewis Carrol? I admit I was reminded of it by http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Lewis SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Mike wrote on Thu, 8 Jan 2009 06:34:57 -0800 (PST): > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lewis Carrol? I was going to mention that, although technically it wasn't a "given name", as it was a pen name for Charles Dodgson. I guess he did give it to himself. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >�I can't think of any famous British people offhand with the > given name Lewis. Robert Lewis Balfour Stevenson, later known as Robert Louis Stevenson. > Yup. It's been a slow process, though. The various Kings of France who > had always been "Lewis" in English became "Louis" in the mid 19th > century. They're still usually known as Ludwig in Germany. SignatureRob Bannister > It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish television > routinely translates the name of the British Queen as "Isabel", and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Belgians", or "Francis Mitterand". > Is this governed by a set of (unwritten) rules? Yes, but these are rules of style rather than grammar or lexicography, e.g. New York Times Style Book etc. English- language mass media usually avoid "translating" proper names but we should not be surprised that the Spanish or Polish traditions are different. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish >> television routinely translates the name of the British Queen as [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > but we should not be surprised that the Spanish or Polish > traditions are different. I'm slightly inclined to think it may go a bit deeper than that: after all, there are probably reasons for the respective style choices. But you can search me for whatever the reasons may be... ...well, one thought is that it's likely that English-speakers had far more exposure to other cultures' onomastica during the 19C than did Poles or Spaniards, or even most French-speakers. SignatureMike. A curiously silly semitranslation is "Josef Stalin", which appears fairly often. Transliterated, he would be "Iosif"; translated, "Joseph". AFAIK there is no language in which "Josef" is a native spelling, but if there is, it isn't English. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: A western ascetic worries that love may lead to sex; an :|| ||: eastern ascetic worries that sex may lead to love. :|| > A curiously silly semitranslation is "Josef Stalin", which appears > fairly often. Transliterated, he would be "Iosif"; translated, > "Joseph". AFAIK there is no language in which "Josef" is a native > spelling, but if there is, it isn't English. "Josef" is the standard spelling in all German-speaking countries. Signature~~~ Reinhold [Rey] Aman ~~~ who had an uncle named Josef Aman >> A curiously silly semitranslation is "Josef Stalin", which appears >> fairly often. Transliterated, he would be "Iosif"; translated, >> "Joseph". AFAIK there is no language in which "Josef" is a native >> spelling, but if there is, it isn't English. > > "Josef" is the standard spelling in all German-speaking countries. Even sillier is the fact that we write "Tchaikovsky" but "Chekhov", though course in Russian they begin with the same letter. No doubt there are reasons for this --- perhaps "Tchaikovsky" came through French --- but it still doesn't make much sense. Peter Groves >>> A curiously silly semitranslation is "Josef Stalin", which appears >>> fairly often. Transliterated, he would be "Iosif"; translated, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > there are reasons for this --- perhaps "Tchaikovsky" came through > French --- but it still doesn't make much sense. Meanwhile, the Pole widely Frenchified as Frédéric Chopin was known to his mates as "Fritz". SignatureMike. On Jan 6, 11:33 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Meanwhile, the Pole widely Frenchified as Frédéric Chopin was known to > his mates as "Fritz". Whereas Liszt Ferenc was called -- Franz. Wait a minute.... cheers, Stephanie in Brussels a nice city because I don't need to translate my name for anyone here unlike a few I've lived in on the other hand I have found people who demand to know why my parents gave me a French name > A curiously silly semitranslation is "Josef Stalin", which appears > fairly often. Transliterated, he would be "Iosif"; translated, > "Joseph". AFAIK there is no language in which "Josef" is a native > spelling, but if there is, it isn't English. Josef is a common spelling in Dutch, but Joseph outgoogles him by three to one, Jan >> A curiously silly semitranslation is "Josef Stalin", which appears >> fairly often. Transliterated, he would be "Iosif"; translated, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Josef is a common spelling in Dutch, > but Joseph outgoogles him by three to one, "Jozefs" is the standard spelling for the nominative of the name in Latvia. Then there are the inflections, of course. For the character mentioned above, the name is Jozefs Visarionovičs Staļins. We go from there, inflectionwise. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish television > routinely translates the name of the British Queen as "Isabel", and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Belgians", or "Francis Mitterand". > Is this governed by a set of (unwritten) rules? I think everyone so far has talked only about names of people, but the point also applies to names of places, and for those there is little consistency in English: on the one hand the Ivory Coast, but on the other hand Costa Rica. I suppose one could call The Netherlands a translated name, but it's a pretty transparent one. Signatureathel >> It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish television >> routinely translates the name of the British Queen as "Isabel", and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >other hand Costa Rica. I suppose one could call The Netherlands a >translated name, but it's a pretty transparent one. Last year I found an example of a city in Italy and its football (soccer) team. An English team went to the city to play a match against the city's team. The team had the name of the city but reports in the British press described supporters travelling to ABC (English version of the name) to watch their team play DEF (Italian version of the name). It might have been Rome in which case the supporters were reported as having "travelled to Rome to watch their team play Roma". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) -------------------8>< > Last year I found an example of a city in Italy and its football (soccer) > team. An English team went to the city to play a match against the city's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > which case the supporters were reported as having "travelled to Rome to watch > their team play Roma". Another good anomaly is the German football team, FC Bayern Munchen. In any other context, Bayern is always rendered in British English usage as Bavaria, while Munchen is always Munich. Nevertheless, the football team is always referred to in Britain as FC Bayern Munich. > -------------------8>< >> Last year I found an example of a city in Italy and its football [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Nevertheless, the football team is always referred to in Britain as FC > Bayern Munich. "There'll be singing in the streets of Raith tonight." AFAIK, neither of Edinburgh's two main teams has the city's name. It may be in the small print, of course, but nobody ever seems to say it. SignatureMike. >> -------------------8>< >>> Last year I found an example of a city in Italy and its football [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >AFAIK, neither of Edinburgh's two main teams has the city's name. It may >be in the small print, of course, but nobody ever seems to say it. Not many football clubs have London in their name. Is this a capital thing? James [...] >> "There'll be singing in the streets of Raith tonight." >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Not many football clubs have London in their name. > Is this a capital thing? Ah, hadn't thought of that. I don't think any of the major clubs admit to London. Even those rugby clubs which do are using it as a qualifier: London Irish, L. Scottish, L.Welsh. SignatureMike. >James Hogg wrote: >[...] [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >to London. Even those rugby clubs which do are using it as a qualifier: >London Irish, L. Scottish, L.Welsh. That would be the Reading London Irish, I think. Playing Connacht on Saturday -- could it be worth a ticket? SignaturePaul >> James Hogg wrote: >> [...] [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > That would be the Reading London Irish, I think. Playing Connacht on > Saturday -- could it be worth a ticket? Probably would. On a "How like the English!" note, nobody round here seems to bat an eyelid at the knowledge that a Coventry Irish soccer team is named after Roger Casement. SignatureMike. > [...] >>> "There'll be singing in the streets of Raith tonight." [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to London. Even those rugby clubs which do are using it as a qualifier: > London Irish, L. Scottish, L.Welsh. I suppose they don't have London in their names because they weren't started in London. I don't recall that the City of London had a football team, did they? Football teams, it seems to me, started as neighbourhood or small town affairs, and their followers stayed local until fairly recently. Which team would choose to drop their local name, and risk alienating their supporters, for the sake of the amorphous mass that is modern London. That's my theory anyway. Of course, it doesn't explain why Woolwich Arsenal moved to Highbury. But I still think we should mourn the loss of Newton Heath Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Football Club. Fran Fran Kemmish filted: >Football teams, it seems to me, started as neighbourhood or small town >affairs, and their followers stayed local until fairly recently. Which [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >But I still think we should mourn the loss of Newton Heath Lancashire >and Yorkshire Railway Football Club. "Yes, it's none other than the South Northwest, who are meeting for the first time, in a flock, the Northeast by Southwest Midlands, for the privilege of holding next year's All England South Southeast by North Southwest Southwest of Birmingham Southeast Finals, held annually wherever they can find it." ....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >But I still think we should mourn the loss of Newton Heath Lancashire >and Yorkshire Railway Football Club. Yes. It's never been the same since it shortened its name to Newton Heath FC, received live-saving invstement, changed its colours from green and gold to red and white and adopted the prosaic name Manchester United. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) [...] > Of course, it doesn't explain why Woolwich > Arsenal moved to Highbury. Or how the boss at the time had the clout to get the local Underground station's name changed to "Arsenal". I imagine visiting teams' supporters are likely to have trouble with that these days. SignatureMike. > "There'll be singing in the streets of Raith tonight." "They'll be dancing in the streets of Total Network tonight" SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu [...]> > I think everyone so far has talked only about names of people, but the > point also applies to names of places, and for those there is little > consistency in English: on the one hand the Ivory Coast, but on the > other hand Costa Rica. I suppose one could call The Netherlands a > translated name, but it's a pretty transparent one. There's a ballad in which the country is called "The Lowlands, the Lowlands of Holland". I wonder if the Ivory Coast was first named in English, or Spanish or Portuguese, then put into French later. SignatureMike. >[...]> >> I think everyone so far has talked only about names of people, but the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I wonder if the Ivory Coast was first named in English, or Spanish or >Portuguese, then put into French later. It was a French colony. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> [...]> >>> I think everyone so far has talked only about names of people, but [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It was a French colony. Yes, I know. But that isn't conclusive for the origin of the name. SignatureMike. >>> [...]> >>>> I think everyone so far has talked only about names of people, but [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Yes, I know. But that isn't conclusive for the origin of the name. I suspect the origin lies in the fact that ivory was traded there. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > >> On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:47:39 -0000, "Mike Lyle" > >>> I wonder if the Ivory Coast was first named in English > >> It was a French colony. > > > > Yes, I know. But that isn't conclusive for the origin of the name. > > I suspect the origin lies in the fact that ivory was traded > there. That was common in the region. Ghana used to be the Gold Coast, and the Slave Coast was the area around Togo. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> >> On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:47:39 -0000, "Mike Lyle" > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >That was common in the region. Ghana used to be the Gold Coast, and the >Slave Coast was the area around Togo. And there is the Skeleton Coast (West Africa, south of the equator): http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/3061/eskeleton.htm Skeleton Coast, a strange name. It is called that way because there are a lot of skeletons of shipwrecks and of human beings. http://www.safarimappers.com/area.aspx?lngareaid=3 The Skeleton Coast earns its name from the many shipwrecks and the ghosts of their sailors that litter this eerie coast. The fog that rolls in from the Atlantic gives the entire coast a mystical feel. Over the years the desert sand starts to engulf the shipwrecks that are scattered along the coast. http://www.rainbowtours.co.uk/index.php?id=465 The Skeleton Coast is an area of great beauty and solitude. It owes its name to the skeletons of whales and ships cast up on this remote, misty, gem-rich coastline by the winds and currents of the South Atlantic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeleton_Coast The coast is named for the bleached whale and seal bones which covered the shore when the whaling industry was still active, as well as the skeletal shipwrecks caused by rocks offshore in the fog. More than a thousand vessels of various sizes and areas litter the coast. Notable wrecks in the region include the Eduard Bohlen, the Otavi, the Dunedin Star, and Tong Taw. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >>> [...]> > >>>> I think everyone so far has talked only about names of people, but [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I suspect the origin lies in the fact that ivory was traded > there. And the Portuguese were the first Europeans to explore the west coast of Africa, so a Portuguese origin of the name is not unreasonable. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email > And the Portuguese were the first Europeans to explore the west > coast of Africa, so a Portuguese origin of the name is not > unreasonable. And then there's Formosa, a Portuguese name for a place whose Mandarin name we later found equally useful and pronounceable in English. cheers, Stephanie >And then there's Formosa, a Portuguese name for a place whose Mandarin >name we later found equally useful and pronounceable in English. But what do the natives call it? -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>And then there's Formosa, a Portuguese name for a place whose Mandarin >>name we later found equally useful and pronounceable in English. > >But what do the natives call it? Taiwan. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>And then there's Formosa, a Portuguese name for a place whose Mandarin >>>name we later found equally useful and pronounceable in English. >> >>But what do the natives call it? > >Taiwan. I thought that was the Chinese name. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>And then there's Formosa, a Portuguese name for a place whose Mandarin >>>>name we later found equally useful and pronounceable in English. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >I thought that was the Chinese name. Good point. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 22:27:24 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I thought that was the Chinese name. I imagine "Taiwan" is what most of the natives call it. "Taiwanese aborigines currently comprise about 2% of the island's population.[1] However, far fewer can still speak their ancestral language, after centuries of language shift. Of the approximately 26 languages of the Taiwanese aborigines, at least ten are extinct, another four (perhaps five) are moribund,[2][3] and several others are to some degree endangered." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formosan_languages -- Jerry Friedman >> In article >> <414b1757-477d-4815-8fd0-3d24c5af02ae@q18g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Taiwan. As of course is their exclusive right; but I do privately miss "Formosa", whose sound is as beautiful as its meaning. (Now some schadenfreudist will tell me it's a popular brand of axle grease somewhere.) SignatureMike. Mike Lyle filted: >As of course is their exclusive right; but I do privately miss >"Formosa", whose sound is as beautiful as its meaning. > >(Now some schadenfreudist will tell me it's a popular brand of axle >grease somewhere.) Not that I'm aware of...there used to be a brand of beef jerky called "Formosa Sweetheart" that came in mild, moderate, hot, and extra hot...I tried all of them at one time or another and settled in on "hot" as my preference; I could eat the "extra hot" stuff but it was mainly for showing off....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>And then there's Formosa, a Portuguese name for a place whose Mandarin >>name we later found equally useful and pronounceable in English. > >But what do the natives call it? In all 26 indigenous austronesian languages? Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>And then there's Formosa, a Portuguese name for a place whose Mandarin >>>name we later found equally useful and pronounceable in English. >> >>But what do the natives call it? > >In all 26 indigenous austronesian languages? Do they have a shared name for the place? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>And then there's Formosa, a Portuguese name for a place whose Mandarin >>>>name we later found equally useful and pronounceable in English. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Do they have a shared name for the place? I have no idea, but I don't think it was Taiwan or Formosa. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> And the Portuguese were the first Europeans to explore the west >> coast of Africa, so a Portuguese origin of the name is not >> unreasonable. > > And then there's Formosa, a Portuguese name for a place whose Mandarin > name we later found equally useful and pronounceable in English. Except that, in the world of sport, it has to be called Chinese Taipei. I often wonder how many other, non-Chinese Taipeis there are that it needs this distinction. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >> And then there's Formosa, a Portuguese name for a place whose Mandarin >> name we later found equally useful and pronounceable in English. > >Except that, in the world of sport, it has to be called Chinese Taipei. >I often wonder how many other, non-Chinese Taipeis there are that it >needs this distinction. I didn't realize you had such a Taipei personality....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > [...]> >> I think everyone so far has talked only about names of people, but the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I wonder if the Ivory Coast was first named in English, or Spanish or > Portuguese, then put into French later. Probably in French. However, it's called Costa de Marfil in Spanish, and maybe that came first. Unless one's Spanish is extensive enough to include words like ivory that's pretty opaque, and according to Wikipedia it has even more opaque names like Elfenbeinküste and Norsunluurannikko in other languages. Many years ago WIWAL I spent a couple of nights in the youth hostel in Delphi, and was studying the world map that was on the wall, and noticed that all the South American countries except one had names that were immediately recognizable. As my knowledge of South American geography was rudimentary at that time I had a lot of trouble working out what the exception was until I noticed that the word written along the equator was almost the same. Signatureathel > It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish television > routinely translates the name of the British Queen as "Isabel", and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Belgians", or "Francis Mitterand". > Is this governed by a set of (unwritten) rules? We went through this topic several times. My favorites are the Italian translations "Sergio" for Sergei Essenin" and Luigi Fortebraccio" for "Louis Armstrong". Arcadian wrote on Thu, 8 Jan 2009 06:02:00 -0800 (PST): >> It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish >> television routinely translates the name of the British Queen [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> of Spain", or "King Baldwin of the Belgians", or "Francis >> Mitterand". Is this governed by a set of (unwritten) rules? > We went through this topic several times. Do we need to be consistent in transliteration? The variety of names and pronunciations is sometimes a little mental puzzle and makes those who know the originals feel superior. I can't remember what the opera usually called "Eugene Onegin" was originally titled. Did the gentleman have the Russian name often transliterated as Yevgeni? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Arcadian wrote on Thu, 8 Jan 2009 06:02:00 -0800 (PST): > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >usually called "Eugene Onegin" was originally titled. Did the gentleman >have the Russian name often transliterated as Yevgeni? Yevgény Onégin (but with cyrillic/kyrillic characters). Is this thread about translations or transliterations? When it comes to transliterations we've had a whole buncha names for the leader of Libya. I understand the Russians transliterated the name of our 1950s president as something that sounded like "Eisengower". Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> Arcadian wrote on Thu, 8 Jan 2009 06:02:00 -0800 (PST): >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I understand the Russians transliterated the name of our 1950s > president as something that sounded like "Eisengower". He, of course, lead the Allies in the Great Patriotic War that defeated Gitler. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >> Arcadian �wrote �on Thu, 8 Jan 2009 06:02:00 -0800 (PST): > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > He, of course, lead the Allies in the Great Patriotic War that defeated > Gitler. Let's not forget Vinston Churchill's contribution. >> > I understand the Russians transliterated the name of our 1950s >> > president as something that sounded like "Eisengower". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Let's not forget Vinston Churchill's contribution. Quite right. Never have so many owed so much to so few (the RAF) -- nor to so many (the Red Army). SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Arcadian Rises filted: >On Jan 8, 1:21=EF=BF=BDpm, Roland Hutchinson <my.spamt...@verizon.net> wrot= >e: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Let's not forget Vinston Churchill's contribution. Shouldn't that be "Tschurtschill"?...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>> Arcadian wrote on Thu, 8 Jan 2009 06:02:00 -0800 (PST): >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >He, of course, lead the Allies in the Great Patriotic War that defeated >Gitler. Is this thread now subject to Hodwin's Law? SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England [...] >>> I understand the Russians transliterated the name of our 1950s >>> president as something that sounded like "Eisengower". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Is this thread now subject to Hodwin's Law? Ga, ga! That's a hood one! SignatureMike. > [ ... ] >> I understand the Russians transliterated the name of our 1950s >> president as something that sounded like "Eisengower". > > He, of course, lead the Allies in the Great Patriotic War that defeated > Gitler. I once knew someone called Gitler. At the time he was Mexican, but subsequently he emigrated to Israel, and I sometimes wondered what they thought of his name there (specially after the large influx of Russians). Signatureathel >> I understand the Russians transliterated the name of our 1950s >> president as something that sounded like "Eisengower". > > He, of course, lead the Allies in the Great Patriotic War that defeated > Gitler. Someone told me a few years ago that he had come across a mathematics book (translated from Russian) that referred to "Gilbert's programme". SignatureThis sig no verb. >>> I understand the Russians transliterated the name of our 1950s >>> president as something that sounded like "Eisengower". [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Someone told me a few years ago that he had come across a mathematics > book (translated from Russian) that referred to "Gilbert's programme". It got a bit derailed by that Austrian chap, Hödel, didn't it? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland wrote on Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:24:38 -0500: >>>> I understand the Russians transliterated the name of our >>>> 1950s president as something that sounded like [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> mathematics book (translated from Russian) that referred to >> "Gilbert's programme". > It got a bit derailed by that Austrian chap, Hödel, didn't it? Sometimes even the Russians do a more or less accurate phonetic transcription. I have a stamp celebrating Geoorge Bernard Shaw and "George" is not translated as Georgi or whatever but begins "D zh" or, in the actual Russian letters, "Дж". I can't guarantee that these will transmit. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Roland wrote on Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:24:38 -0500: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > in the actual Russian letters, "Дж". I can't guarantee that these will > transmit. Actually, in more recent times, they have tended to transliterate "h" with cyrillic "х" (the letter that looks like a roman "x" and sounds like the final consonant of "Bach" or the initial of "Chanukah"). The historical practice of using the G-sound is retained for historical names: e.g., "Hitler" remains "Gitler" rather than becoming "Khitler". SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson filted: >Actually, in more recent times, they have tended to transliterate "h" with >cyrillic "Ñ…" (the letter that looks like a roman "x" and sounds like the >final consonant of "Bach" or the initial of "Chanukah"). The historical >practice of using the G-sound is retained for historical names: >e.g., "Hitler" remains "Gitler" rather than becoming "Khitler". Given that they were near contemporaries, how does that explain "Exapno Mapcase"?...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Given that they were near contemporaries, how does that explain "Exapno > Mapcase"?...r The convention was in transition in the mid-20th century, I imagine. Furthermore, there might have been earlier Hitlers whose name was transliterated, setting a precedent, but I doubt there were earlier Harpos. And of course what Harpo pronounced (though not in public, one presumes) as "Exapno Mapcase" looked more like "Xapno Mapkc" (Харпо Маркс). That the two transliterations have endured, witnesseth Wikipedia: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C%D1%8F_%D0%9C%D0%B0%D 1%80%D0%BA%D1%81 http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%80,_%D0%90%D0%B4% D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%84 SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Given that they were near contemporaries, how does that explain "Exapno > Mapcase"?...r A hood sense of gyumour? >> Roland wrote on Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:24:38 -0500: >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > practice of using the G-sound is retained for historical names: > e.g., "Hitler" remains "Gitler" rather than becoming "Khitler". I think the original Western h = Russian g came from a logical application of a more or less consistent equivalence between Czech and Russian (e.g. Czech Praha = Russian Praga) but later it got extended to other languages, where it gave peculiar results. Signatureathel >>> Roland wrote on Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:24:38 -0500: >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Czech Praha = Russian Praga) but later it got extended to other languages, > where it gave peculiar results. Interesting. Apparently Russian vessels have a hard time distinguishing between the neighbouring ports of Hull and Goole because they both transliterate as GUL (???). Peter Groves >>>> Roland wrote on Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:24:38 -0500: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >between the neighbouring ports of Hull and Goole because they both >transliterate as GUL (???). That should be an incentive for them to prefer the alternative form "Khall" for Hull. That's what the Russian Wikipedia uses, but it says that "Kingston-apon-Khall" is on the river "Gull'": http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BD-%D 0%B0%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BD-%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BB James On Jan 8, 9:28�am, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: > �Arcadian �wrote �on Thu, 8 Jan 2009 06:02:00 -0800 (PST): > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > pronunciations is sometimes a little mental puzzle and makes those who > know the originals feel superior. That reminds me of Kathy Courick (sp?) who once interviewed a Russian VIP and asked him to settle a dispute she had with her (then) male co- host on the correct pronunciation of Moscow: is the last vowel "o" or schwa? The visiting dignitary answered that he didn't know the English pronunciation because he always utters it in Russian: "Moskva" > I can't remember what the opera > usually called "Eugene Onegin" was originally titled. Did the gentleman > have the Russian name often transliterated as Yevgeni? I believe so, look at Pushkin's play by the same name, it should be "Yevgeni Onegin". Anyway, even the Bard took some liberties with translations, e.g. "Juliet" for "Giulietta". On Jan 8, 3:28 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: > I can't remember what the opera > usually called "Eugene Onegin" was originally titled. Did the gentleman > have the Russian name often transliterated as Yevgeni? Da. On 08 Jan 2009, Arcadian Rises wrote >> It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish >> television routinely translates the name of the British Queen [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > My favorites are the Italian translations "Sergio" for Sergei > Essenin" and Luigi Fortebraccio" for "Louis Armstrong". Not to mention their own composer, Joe Green. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > > My favorites are the Italian translations "Sergio" for Sergei > > Essenin" and Luigi Fortebraccio" for "Louis Armstrong". > > Not to mention their own composer, Joe Green. Or that famous French composer of film scores, Big Mick. Mike M >> > My favorites are the Italian translations "Sergio" for Sergei >> > Essenin" and Luigi Fortebraccio" for "Louis Armstrong". >> >> Not to mention their own composer, Joe Green. > > Or that famous French composer of film scores, Big Mick. And those adopted French composers, Jean-Sebastien Bach and Louis van Beethoven. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >> > My favorites are the Italian translations "Sergio" for Sergei > >> > Essenin" and Luigi Fortebraccio" for "Louis Armstrong". [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And those adopted French composers, Jean-Sebastien Bach and Louis van > Beethoven. And the great Russian novelist Leo Tolstoy, or the famous archer William Tell. On 08 Jan 2009, Arcadian Rises wrote > On Jan 8, 11:00�am, Roland Hutchinson > <my.spamt...@verizon.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > And the great Russian novelist Leo Tolstoy, or the famous archer > William Tell. I assumed for many years that John Calvin was Scottish. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed HVS wrote on Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:07:42 GMT: >> On Jan 8, 11:00�am, Roland Hutchinson >> <my.spamt...@verizon.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> And the great Russian novelist Leo Tolstoy, or the famous >> archer William Tell. > I assumed for many years that John Calvin was Scottish. Calvin taught that other great democrat John Knox who was Scots. Incidentally, both Grieg and Kant were of Scottish ancestry SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not On 08 Jan 2009, James Silverton wrote > HVS wrote on Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:07:42 GMT: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Calvin taught that other great democrat John Knox who was Scots. I knew Knox was, but I just assumed Calvin was as well. Or that he'd spent a lot of time in Scotland. Or that he'd at least set foot in the place. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 08 Jan 2009, James Silverton wrote > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > he'd spent a lot of time in Scotland. Or that he'd at least set > foot in the place. He certainly left his footprints all over it. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. HVS wrote, in <Xns9B8D93A592A2Bwhhvans@news.albasani.net> on Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:30:51 GMT: > On 08 Jan 2009, Arcadian Rises wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Not to mention their own composer, Joe Green. A friend of mine used to refer to "The Green brothers, Joe and Monty". SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > ...the British media never > refer to "King John Charles of Spain" My old history books all refer to various kings of Spain called "Charles". Mike M >> ...the British media never >> refer to "King John Charles of Spain" > >My old history books all refer to various kings of Spain called >"Charles". I don't believe I've ever seen the current king referred to as John Charles. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 06:39:32 -0800 (PST), Mike M ><mikmooney@googlemail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I don't believe I've ever seen the current king referred to as >John Charles. The late unfortunate Jean Charles de Menezes[1] is mentioned by the Beeb usually, I think, as Zhonn Sharl-ez de Menezes, or maybe something else not too far off. Perhaps it's the future -- a man given French names in a Portuguese-speaking country having them pronounced neither Britishly nor Frenchly by English speakers in London where he died. [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5173032.stm SignaturePaul >The late unfortunate Jean Charles de Menezes[1] is mentioned by the Beeb >usually, I think, as Zhonn Sharl-ez de Menezes, or maybe something else [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5173032.stm It would be reasonable to attempt to pronounce the name neither Britishly nor Frenchly but Brazilianly -- the way his family would. Someone using the name "ashiebr" posted a message at http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/neil_midgley/blog/2007/08/02/sheann_sharlesh_de_men eshesh saying: ...the pronunciation of J-C d M would depend on which part of Brazil you were from. But most would say something like: Joh Sharrrlis Dje Meneziz The AP News Pronunciation Guide (Associated Press) [via Taiwan News] gives the pronunciation as: http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/etn/news_content.php?id=814464&lang=eng_news&cate_i mg=logo_world&cate_rss=WORLD_eng or http://tinyurl.com/7hoord zheh-AHN' SHAR'-lehs deh meh-NEH'-zehs The Beeb pronunciation seems to be closer to that of the AP Guide than to that suggested by "ashiebr". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Paul Wolff filted: >>On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 06:39:32 -0800 (PST), Mike M >><mikmooney@googlemail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >a Portuguese-speaking country having them pronounced neither Britishly >nor Frenchly by English speakers in London where he died. I'm reminded of Isaac Asimov's story of telling his father for the first time that he liked science fiction...Judah Asimov asked if he had read anything by "Zhool Vairn", using something like the French pronunciation...when the light finally went on in little Isaac's head, he said "oh, you mean Joolz Voin" in his Brooklyn accent, prompting his father to ask "who?"...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>> ...the British media never >>> refer to "King John Charles of Spain" [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I don't believe I've ever seen the current king referred to as > John Charles. True, but all the older ones up to at least Charles X were written that way in our history books. SignatureRob Bannister >> ...the British media never >> refer to "King John Charles of Spain" > > My old history books all refer to various kings of Spain called > "Charles". Likewise Philip, instead of Felipe. > It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish television > routinely translates the name of the British Queen as "Isabel", and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Belgians", or "Francis Mitterand". > Is this governed by a set of (unwritten) rules? In something of an aside, I want to mention that JRR Tolkien (within the conceit that _The Lord of the Rings_ was a translation to English of the "Red Book of Westmarch", written in Westron) used translated names. Names such as "Merry" and the "Brandywine" river have similar connotations (and even etymologies) in English to those of the original Westron words. In a few cases he discusses these at length (in the appendices). He also went to great lengths to suggest to translators how they might handle the issue in further translations of the book. Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- "Much of the same sort of talk can still be heard among the orc- minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigour, save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong." -- JRR Tolkien, _The Return of the King_, Appendix F. > It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish television > routinely translates the name of the British Queen as "Isabel", and > Polish friends of mine, in Polish-language conversation, will refer to > "Prince Karol" rather than Prince Charles, the British media never > refer to "King John Charles of Spain", or "King Baldwin of the > Belgians", or "Francis Mitterand". The eleventh edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1911) did indeed refer to King John of Spain (France, Portugal, etc.), Emperor Baldwin of Romania, Count of Flanders & Hainaut (d. 1205), etc. > Is this governed by a set of (unwritten) rules? The unwritten rule of modern Latin is that given names are (1) Latinized & declined, but surnames are unchanged & undeclined, (2) unless they fit a Latin model or (3) the bearers of the names themselves (or their close contemporaries) have Latinized them. Thus, fitting these criteria, we have: (1) Georgius Bush, which declines only halfway: Georgius Bush, Georgii Bush, Georgio Bush, Georgium Bush, etc. Likewise Ludovicus van Beethoven, Iosephus Bissarioni filius Stalin, etc. (2) Baracus Obama (http://ephemeris.alcuinus.net/nuntius.php?id=418), which can decline fully if you like: Baracus Obama, Baraci Obamae, Baraco Obamae, Baracum Obamam, etc. Likewise Ioannes Iulius Christianus Sibelius, etc. (3) Isaacus Newtonus, which declines fully because Newton tweaked his surname so it would. Likewise Gulielmus Shakesperius, etc. Some controversy in this matter surrounds Georgius Washington (Vasington, Washingtonius, http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgius_Washingtonius). We have a royal exception: one of Queen Elizabeth II's first proclamations (1953) was to tell us how to address her: not as Elisabetha or Elizabetha, but "in the Latin tongue by these words: —'Elizabeth II, Dei Gratia Britanniarum Regnorumque Suorum Ceterorum Regina, Consortionis Populorum Princeps, Fidei Defensor'." >> It occurred to me recently that while (for example) Spanish >> television routinely translates the name of the British Queen as [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > —'Elizabeth II, Dei Gratia Britanniarum Regnorumque Suorum Ceterorum > Regina, Consortionis Populorum Princeps, Fidei Defensor'." Interesting. In Latvian, both first name and surname are declined, but if the title "kungs" or "kundze" (like Herr or Frau in German) is used, then the suname is in the genitive but the first name and title are declined as applicable. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >(2) Baracus Obama Oh dear! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._A._Baracus B. A. Baracus in _The A-Team_ played by Mr T. The thought of him as President is "interesting". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >(2) Baracus Obama > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > The thought of him as President is "interesting". Fool! SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > > > (2) Baracus Obama > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Fool! Pity. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> > > (2) Baracus Obama >> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Pity. 'Tis pity he's a fool. But he's _our_ fool -- for ten more days. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> > > (2) Baracus Obama >>> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >But he's _our_ fool -- for ten more days. That is worrying. I thought Linz (AD) was calling me a fool. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >>> > > (2) Baracus Obama > >>> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > That is worrying. I thought Linz (AD) was calling me a fool. Sorry, Peter, but Dubya has retired the title. For him and his minions I have some advice from the Scottish play (title character): "Stand not upon the order of your going, but go at once." Signaturebob Lieblich Counting the days > >>> > > (2) Baracus Obama > >>> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > That is worrying. I thought Linz (AD) was calling me a fool. Goodness, no! Mr T used to say "Fool!", "Pity the fool" and similar. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary [...] > The unwritten rule of modern Latin is that given names are (1) > Latinized & declined, but surnames are unchanged & undeclined, (2) > unless they fit a Latin model or (3) the bearers of the names > themselves (or their close contemporaries) have Latinized them. [...] Then in a related manner whose details JWL will know better than I, we have the grammar mistake which has resulted in countless women rejoicing in the--in one sense--non-existent name "Maria". The original form, "Mariam" in our spelling, was apparently misunderstood to be the accusative case of a name whose nominative was "Maria", as with "mensa, mensa, mensam", etc. For some reason, the same error wasn't made with "Abraham". I'm sure Jerome was a lot smarter than that, so presumably the mistaken form was established before his time. (What's it feel like being non-existent, Tootsie?) SignatureMike. Mike Lyle filted: >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >(What's it feel like being non-existent, Tootsie?) I suppose it's coming up on the time when we all lay out the equivalents, cognates and variants of our own names...mine shouldn't take long; I once heard that "Ronald" was a form of "Reginald", and my high-school German teacher suggested that the nearest Teutonic counterpart would be "Reinhold"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" [...]> > I suppose it's coming up on the time when we all lay out the > equivalents, cognates and variants of our own names...mine shouldn't > take long; I once heard that "Ronald" was a form of "Reginald", and > my high-school German teacher suggested that the nearest Teutonic > counterpart would be "Reinhold"....r Hey! A title's but the guinea stamp: Aman's Aman for a' that. SignatureMike. >I suppose it's coming up on the time when we all lay out the equivalents, >cognates and variants of our own names...mine shouldn't take long; I once heard >that "Ronald" was a form of "Reginald", and my high-school German teacher >suggested that the nearest Teutonic counterpart would be "Reinhold"....r Aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrh! SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) R H Draney falt: [...] > I suppose it's coming up on the time when we all lay out the > equivalents, cognates and variants of our own names...mine > shouldn't take long; I once heard that "Ronald" was a form of > "Reginald", and my high-school German teacher suggested that > the nearest Teutonic counterpart would be "Reinhold"....r "Teutonic" only if misused for "German" (instead of the correct "Germanic"). German: Reinhold, Reinold, Rainald Teutonic (excluding German): English: Reginald, Raynold, Reynald; Ronald Bavarian: Rainhoid Dutch: Rijnhout Norwegian, Danish, Swedish: Ragnvald Old Norse, Icelandic: Raganvaldr Gothic: Raginhvaltari French: Renaud, Renault, Renauld Italian: Rinaldo Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan: Reynaldo, Renaldo Czech: Rainold, Rainald Russian: Rainold, Raingold Ukrainian: Rainold, Rainhold Latvian: Rainolds Greek: Rainoldhos Latin: Reinholdus etc. Etymology: ragin + waltan, (h)valtan Germanic *ragin* = council; (divine) advice; decision (of the gods); resolution Germanic *waltan* = to rule; to dispense Thus: "advice ruler" or "he who dispenses advice" (ain't it the truth? Nomen est omen!) And thank you, Robin, for remembering my "name's day" yesterday (Jan. 7). For your being so couth, it's uncouth of me to point out that the scientific ornithological term for "robin" is "Turdus migratorius." Apologies! Signature~~~ Reinhold [Rey] Aman ~~~ > And thank you, Robin, for remembering my "name's day" yesterday > (Jan. 7). For your being so couth, it's uncouth of me to point out that > the scientific ornithological term for "robin" is "Turdus migratorius." > Apologies! That's the American Robin. The rightpondian Robin is Erithacus rubecula. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> And thank you, Robin, for remembering my "name's day" yesterday >> (Jan. 7). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That's the American Robin. The rightpondian Robin is Erithacus rubecula. Natürlich. But "Turdus migratorius" sounds funnier. Speaking of names, I've been wondering for a long time how someone with such an über-goyishe name like "Roland Hutchinson" knows so much about Jewish matters. Seriously. Onomastically yours, ~~~ Reinhold [Rey] Aman ~~~ > Speaking of names, I've been wondering for a long time how someone with > such an über-goyishe name like "Roland Hutchinson" knows so much about > Jewish matters. Seriously. One might have found a clue here, as recently as a couple of days ago: http://tinyurl.com/8jwm8n SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> Speaking of names, I've been wondering for a long time how >> someone with such an über-goyishe name like "Roland Hutchinson" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://tinyurl.com/8jwm8n Danke, Herr Hirschberg. :-) BTW, someone who plays such a fancy instrument as a viola da gamba should have a matching fancy name. How do you like the Italian version, "Orlando Montecervo"? With *that* name, you'd get better-paying gigs! Signature~~~ Reinhold [Rey] Aman ~~~ >>> Speaking of names, I've been wondering for a long time how >>> someone with such an über-goyishe name like "Roland Hutchinson" [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > should have a matching fancy name. How do you like the Italian version, > "Orlando Montecervo"? With *that* name, you'd get better-paying gigs! I find that "Orlandus Filiushugonis" serves when I need to go upmarket. Speaking of matters Latinate, may I be so indelicate as to remind you that some of the more sensitive among us would greatly prefer "supranational" to its cognate (or is it its calque?) "über-goyishe" used in reference to one's moniker. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> And thank you, Robin, for remembering my "name's day" yesterday >>> (Jan. 7). [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Onomastically yours, "Turdiform" means shaped like a thrush. Always good for a giggle. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. Richard Bollard filted: >"Turdiform" means shaped like a thrush. Always good for a giggle. Right up there with "faggotist" for "bassoon-player"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Richard Bollard filted: >> "Turdiform" means shaped like a thrush. Always good for a giggle. > > Right up there with "faggotist" for "bassoon-player"....r Who is? SignatureDavid >> And thank you, Robin, for remembering my "name's day" yesterday >> (Jan. 7). For your being so couth, it's uncouth of me to point out that >> the scientific ornithological term for "robin" is "Turdus migratorius." >> Apologies! > > That's the American Robin. The rightpondian Robin is Erithacus rubecula. That's right. The American "robin" isn't a robin at all to right-thinking people; it's a thrush. Signatureathel > >> And thank you, Robin, for remembering my "name's day" yesterday > >> (Jan. 7). For your being so couth, it's uncouth of me to point out that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That's right. The American "robin" isn't a robin at all to > right-thinking people; it's a thrush. All right-pond-thinking people, anyway. The American Ornithologists' Union recently changed most the tropical American /Turdus/ species' names from "robin" to "thrush"--but not the American Robin. Here's some discussion of this important topic in which I quoted Peter Duncanson and Donna Richoux: http://birdaz.com/blog/2008/09/11/when-is-a-robin-not-a-robin/ The comments read from the bottom up. -- Jerry Friedman >And thank you, Robin, for remembering my "name's day" yesterday >(Jan. 7). You are welcome, Dr Rey. >For your being so couth, it's uncouth of me to point out that >the scientific ornithological term for "robin" is "Turdus migratorius." >Apologies! None needed. I had one of those very bad colds that are doing the rounds and felt like sh.t all through Christmas and New Year. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England On Jan 8, 4:38 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in the--in one sense--non-existent name "Maria". The original form, > "Mariam" in our spelling, "Miryam", in Hebrew. Did the first "a" enter at the Aramaic or Greek stage? > was apparently misunderstood to be the > accusative case of a name whose nominative was "Maria", as with "mensa, > mensa, mensam", etc. For some reason, the same error wasn't made with > "Abraham". I'm sure Jerome was a lot smarter than that, so presumably > the mistaken form was established before his time. I always assumed it was because Greek and Latin feminine names never seem to end in consonants (except those ending in -is). The reverse of how Moses and Jesus got their final "s"-es. -- Jerry Friedman > On Jan 8, 4:38 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> > wrote: [...] >> original form, "Mariam" in our spelling, > > "Miryam", in Hebrew. Did the first "a" enter at the Aramaic or Greek > stage? I don't know from Syriac--we need P.T.Daniels at this point. But the "a" was certainly in the NT Greek, as was the "m" in the nominative. >> was apparently misunderstood to be the >> accusative case of a name whose nominative was "Maria", as with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > seem to end in consonants (except those ending in -is). The reverse > of how Moses and Jesus got their final "s"-es. But, as I say, the Greek version had no difficulty in accepting it. I think it may just be an oddity, though I'll note also that final nasals do seem to have been pronounced "weakly" by some Latin-speakers. SignatureMike. On Jan 10, 5:02 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: > > On Jan 8, 4:38 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I don't know from Syriac--we need P.T.Daniels at this point. But the "a" > was certainly in the NT Greek, as was the "m" in the nominative. According to <http://multilingualbible.com/exodus/15-20.htm>, both were also in the Septuagint for Miriam the sister of Moses. Not to commit heresy or anything, but I wonder whether the Masoretic vowels are really better than the Septuagint here. The Vulgate calls Miriam "Maria." > >> was apparently misunderstood to be the > >> accusative case of a name whose nominative was "Maria", as with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > But, as I say, the Greek version had no difficulty in accepting it. "Maria" occurs too in the Greek New Testament. I'm not clear on the differences among the versions, but the first one at biblos.com (Greek NT: WH / NA27 / UBS4) mostly has "Maria" for Mary Magadelene and the others, not for the mother of Jesus, strangely enough. Here's one where it does call the Virgin Mary "Maria": <http://multilingualbible.com/mark/15-47.htm> Here it gives the two spellings (for the Magdalene) as alternatives: <http://multilingualbible.com/matthew/28-1.htm> > I > think it may just be an oddity, though I'll note also that final nasals > do seem to have been pronounced "weakly" by some Latin-speakers. I'm only getting more confused. -- Jerry Friedman > The unwritten rule of modern Latin is that given names are (1) > Latinized & declined, but surnames are unchanged & undeclined, (2) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Baraco Obamae, Baracum Obamam, etc. Likewise Ioannes Iulius > Christianus Sibelius, etc. "Baracus Obama" isn't as Latinized as it could be: "Benedictus Obama" would be more the ticket. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > The eleventh edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1911) did indeed > refer to King John of Spain Don John of Austria is going to the war. Mike M |
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