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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009"held their former colony up to shame"
Hi, ---------- Some of the American authors who did best in England were antislavery writers, for the English apparently could not get enough works that held their former colony up to shame. Frederick Douglass and William Wells Brown found a significant audience in Great Britain, ... ---------- Quoted from the introduction of the period 1820~1865 in /American Literature/ published by Norton. What does " could not get enough works that held their former colony up to shame" mean? I cannot either understand the part of speech of "shame." Is it a verb or a noun? Regards Tacia >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >What does " could not get enough works that held their former colony >up to shame" mean? Substitute "books" or "writing" for "works". The English wanted to read about their former colony's problems.  SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida [snip] > >What does " could not get enough works that held their former colony > >up to shame" mean? > > Substitute "books" or "writing" for "works". The English wanted to > read about their former colony's problems. Hi, Mr. Cooper, That's swift. Thanks. But my real problem lies in the expression of "held ... up to shame." Hope you can take an extra look at my question. :-) > [snip] >>> What does " could not get enough works that held their former colony [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > That's swift. Thanks. > But my real problem lies in the expression of "held ... up to shame." It's an idiomatic phrase meaning that they were exposed to people who would find their actions shameful. We also say "held X up to ridicule". SignatureDavid > It's an idiomatic phrase meaning that they were exposed to people who > would find their actions shameful. We also say "held X up to ridicule". Thank you so much! >[snip] >> >What does " could not get enough works that held their former colony [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >That's swift. Thanks. >But my real problem lies in the expression of "held ... up to shame." "Shame" is defined in the dictionary. "Held up to", in this case, means "an example of". SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I cannot either understand the part of speech of "shame." Is it a verb > or a noun? "could not get enough of X" means that they would eagerly consume X and would wait for the next delivery/instalment, etc. It can be applied to anything which people use, e.g. books, films, food, drink. In this case "works" means "books". "shame" is an abstract noun. SignatureDavid > "could not get enough of X" means that they would eagerly consume X and > would wait for the next delivery/instalment, etc. It can be applied to > anything which people use, e.g. books, films, food, drink. In this case > "works" means "books". > > "shame" is an abstract noun. Thanks! > Some of the American authors who did best in England were > antislavery writers, for the English apparently could not get [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Quoted from the introduction of the period 1820~1865 in /American > Literature/ published by Norton. > What does " could not get enough works that held their former colony > up to shame" mean? > I cannot either understand the part of speech of "shame." Is it a > verb or a noun? It's a noun, since it functions as the object of the preposition "to", but it has strong verbal associations. I think that, in this usage, it can be considered a noun derivative of the verb "to shame", meaning to cause to feel shame; that verb was itself derived from the original noun "shame", referring to the feeling. It's an old and very widespread practice to punish certain offences by exhibiting the offender in public where people can mock and insult him or her, or even commit violence upon them. Sometimes the public shaming was itself the major punishment, but serious crimes were also punished by public whipping or hanging or worse; the shame was considered both part of the punishment and a useful warning to the public. I think the expression you asked about has its origins in this kind of social sanction. > It's an old and very widespread practice to punish certain offences by > exhibiting the offender in public where people can mock and insult him [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > public. I think the expression you asked about has its origins in > this kind of social sanction. Thank you. Your explanation really gives me the picture! >> Some of the American authors who did best in England were >> antislavery writers, for the English apparently could not get [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to cause to feel shame; that verb was itself derived from the original > noun "shame", referring to the feeling. [...] Ignoring the language question, I'm not at all happy about the premise "the English apparently could not get enough works that held their former colony up to shame." "Apparently" is a way to suggest the accusation without making it directly. "Some of the..." has a comparable effect: how many is "some"? Note that the authors mentioned /were/ American, not "English" (you should often be careful when somebody uses "English" instead of "British"), and that /all/ American literature was popular in Britain from early days. It could equally well be argued that reading American anti-slavery writing held the "former colony" up as a good example, not a bad one: in this light, its citizens were seen as admirable people challenging an entrenched evil practised by a minority. Social reform movements were at work in Britain, too. It's an unfortunate fact that some Americans (you see? I can do it, too) see relations between the American colonies and the "mother country" as a conflict between "us" and "them". Life and history are rarely so simple. I know the paragraph is taken out of its context, but I'd read the whole with caution. SignatureMike. >>> Some of the American authors who did best in England were >>> antislavery writers, for the English apparently could not get [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> Quoted from the introduction of the period 1820~1865 in /American >>> Literature/ published by Norton. > [...] > Ignoring the language question, I'm not at all happy about the > premise "the English apparently could not get enough works that > held their former colony up to shame." "Apparently" is a way to > suggest the accusation without making it directly. "Some of the..." > has a comparable effect: how many is "some"? Academics, eh? Stoats and weasels. > Note that the authors mentioned /were/ American, not "English" (you > should often be careful when somebody uses "English" instead of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > seen as admirable people challenging an entrenched evil practised > by a minority. Social reform movements were at work in Britain, too. > It's an unfortunate fact that some Americans (you see? I can do it, > too) see relations between the American colonies and the "mother > country" as a conflict between "us" and "them". Life and history > are rarely so simple. I know the paragraph is taken out of its > context, but I'd read the whole with caution. What would the rest of us do without both countries? It would be a dull old world. I've just come from watching one of the best, Midsomer episodes, ever, probably years behind the latest one: Joss Ackland, with Sian Phillips reprising her performance as Livia in a modern setting. Cackled all the way through the credits. And once through this list, I think I'll go and listen to some Eagles. A blessing on both their houses. >>> Some of the American authors who did best in England were >>> antislavery writers, for the English apparently could not get [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >simple. I know the paragraph is taken out of its context, but I'd read >the whole with caution. What's this "mother country" folderol? Americans came from all over the world, none the least of which were the original nations of our own continent. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > What's this "mother country" folderol? Americans came from all over > the world, none the least of which were the original nations of our > own continent. It's generally held to mean the former colonial power, from whom we derive such characteristic aspects of our culture as the (de facto, if unofficial) national language, many of our political institutions and laws, a body of literature that is still read in our schools, and the religions to which a majority of our citizens adhere. Indeed, even among Americans of entirely European descent English ancestors are a minority (I believe the largest number of us are Germans of one sort or another, like the royal family) -- but that doesn't change any of the above. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> What's this "mother country" folderol? Americans came from all over >> the world, none the least of which were the original nations of our [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Germans of one sort or another, like the royal family) -- but that > doesn't change any of the above. Not to mention, though I now shall, that I did enclose the expression in quotation marks. This was not an accident. Fol-de-rol-a-tiddle-i-dee-do, and a hey-nonny-nonny for the rumty beggar of Leeds-o! Whack-fol-the-daddy-o, too, now I come to think of it. SignatureMike. >>> What's this "mother country" folderol? Americans came from all over >>> the world, none the least of which were the original nations of our [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Not to mention, though I now shall, that I did enclose the expression in > quotation marks. This was not an accident. Ah, the cunning English wit that precludes accidents. How ever do they do it? > Fol-de-rol-a-tiddle-i-dee-do, and a hey-nonny-nonny for the rumty beggar > of Leeds-o! > > Whack-fol-the-daddy-o, too, now I come to think of it. And call it macaroni. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>> What's this "mother country" folderol? Americans came from all over >>>> the world, none the least of which were the original nations of our [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Ah, the cunning English wit that precludes accidents. How ever do they do >it? Amazing, isn't it? >> Fol-de-rol-a-tiddle-i-dee-do, and a hey-nonny-nonny for the rumty beggar >> of Leeds-o! >> >> Whack-fol-the-daddy-o, too, now I come to think of it. > >And call it macaroni. Which Americans would have called it, I believe, even if we'd decided on German as our national language instead of English. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> What's this "mother country" folderol? Americans came from all >>>>> over the world, none the least of which were the original nations [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Which Americans would have called it, I believe, even if we'd decided > on German as our national language instead of English. Nein: "Makkaroni". To-me-ricky-dicky-doot-dumday! SignatureMike. >>>>>> What's this "mother country" folderol? Americans came from all >>>>>> over the world, none the least of which were the original nations [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >Nein: "Makkaroni". Either spelling will do, from what I gather from: http://www.marions-kochbuch.de/index/0587.htm >To-me-ricky-dicky-doot-dumday! Up your ricky-dicky-doo. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>>> What's this "mother country" folderol? Americans came from all >>>>>>> over the world, none the least of which were the original nations [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > >Up your ricky-dicky-doo. Rumpy-pumpy-rumpy-pum, rumpy-pumpy-die-doh! http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00g9pkt/The_Archers_07_01_2009/> SignatureIan >>>>>>> What's this "mother country" folderol? Americans came from all >>>>>>> over the world, none the least of which were the original [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Up your ricky-dicky-doo. Tiddle-im-pom-pom, At Much (two, three, four) Binding in the Marsh. SignatureMike. >>>>>>>> What's this "mother country" folderol? Americans came from all >>>>>>>> over the world, none the least of which were the original [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Tiddle-im-pom-pom, > At Much (two, three, four) Binding in the Marsh. You could have used an ellipsis... You can get 13 Much Bindings on CD for a fiver at oldradioshows.co.uk. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>>>>> What's this "mother country" folderol? Americans came from all >>>>>>>>> over the world, none the least of which were the original [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > >You can get 13 Much Bindings on CD for a fiver at oldradioshows.co.uk. When we first rented the Rumpole series, a year or two ago, I said to my wife "I recognise that voice", and, sure enough, it was Dicky Murdoch. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>>>>>> What's this "mother country" folderol? Americans came from all >>>>>>>>> over the world, none the least of which were the original [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > You can get 13 Much Bindings on CD for a fiver at oldradioshows.co.uk. Wonderful news!..Perhaps...But--a fiver, you say?--that's little enough to pay to find out if it's worn well. So...thanks. ...Wow! 157 Go On Shows for £6.99, too...treasure trove. "Full confession in the left boot--tragic--very."--OWTTE... SignatureMike. >> You can get 13 Much Bindings on CD for a fiver at oldradioshows.co.uk. > > Wonderful news!..Perhaps...But--a fiver, you say?--that's little enough > to pay to find out if it's worn well. So...thanks. > > ...Wow! 157 Go On Shows for £6.99, too...treasure trove. Are these CDs? MP3 CDs? It seems almost impossible that they can manufacture and ship them for this price. I couldn't find that out on the website. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > >It's an unfortunate fact that some Americans (you see? I can do it, too) > >see relations between the American colonies and the "mother country" as [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the world, none the least of which were the original nations of our > own continent. This is true. And yet, I heard an interview with an American just last week who said he wanted to do well for viewers in "England, the mother country". Considering his surname - Ortmayer - I would have suspected his 'mother country' was somewhere else. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> >It's an unfortunate fact that some Americans (you see? I can do it, too) >> >see relations between the American colonies and the "mother country" as [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > country". Considering his surname - Ortmayer - I would have suspected > his 'mother country' was somewhere else. Yes, you'd think he'd have had the decency to change it to Windsor or Salisbury-Steak or something. ObUsage: do we distinguish between mother country and fatherland? In my case the Hirschbergs (my mother's ancestors) arrived on these American shores (or, rather, in the Great Midwest) a quarter-millennium or so after the Hutchinsons landed in Salem, Mass. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. |
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