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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009I would the more courteously remind you
Hello: Do we have a good alternative for: "the more" construction here? What's specific about it? Do we really need the "the" article? ---- I would the more courteously remind you that the effect of the Crusades and the economic relations they stimulated was anything but favourable to internationalism. The Magic Mountain by Thomas Mann, Helen Tracy Lowe-Porter, p. 386 ------- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > > Do we have a good alternative for: > "the more" > construction here? Why would we need one? It's fine as it stands (IMO). I'm pretty sure we've discussed 'the more' and similar constructions here before, and not so long ago. > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > by Thomas Mann, Helen Tracy Lowe-Porter, p. 386 > ------- At first glance it certainly looks odd. Could you post the previous sentence or two, in case there is something that might justify it?  SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > > Do we have a good alternative for: > > "the more" > > construction here? > > > What's specific about it? Do we really need the "the" article? > At first glance it certainly looks odd. Could you post the previous > sentence or two, in case there is something that might justify it? Of course: --------- [The first to talk is Settembrini, answered by Naphta.] "... I mean the period of the Crusades. These wars for civilization stimulated economic and commercial relations between peoples, and united Western humanity in the name of an idea." "And how tolerant you always are towards an idea! I would the more courteously remind you that the effect of the Crusades and the economic relations they stimulated was anything but favourable to internationalism." The Magic Mountain by Thomas Mann, Tr. Helen Tracy Lowe-Porter, p. 386 ------- Thanks. Marius Hancu >>> Do we have a good alternative for: >>> "the more" >>> construction here? >>> What's specific about it? Do we really need the "the" article? >> At first glance it certainly looks odd. Could you post the previous >> sentence or two, in case there is something that might justify it? > Of course: > [The first to talk is Settembrini, answered by Naphta.] > > "... I mean the period of the Crusades. These wars for civilization > stimulated economic and commercial relations between peoples, and > united Western humanity in the name of an idea." > "And how tolerant you always are towards an idea! I would the more > courteously remind you that the effect of the Crusades and the > economic relations they stimulated was anything but favourable to > internationalism." > The Magic Mountain > by Thomas Mann, Tr. Helen Tracy Lowe-Porter, p. 386 There you are, then. "More courteously because of that (referring to Settembrini's tolerance). Without "the", the phrase would naturally be taken to mean "more courteously than you". That would make the previous sentence into pretty heavy irony. Sarcasm, even. > >>> Do we have a good alternative for: > >>> "the more" > >>> construction here? > >>> What's specific about it? Do we really need the "the" article? > >> At first glance it certainly looks odd. Could you post the previous > >> sentence or two, in case there is something that might justify it? > > Of course: > > [The first to talk is Settembrini, answered by Naphta.] > > > "... I mean the period of the Crusades. These wars for civilization > > stimulated economic and commercial relations between peoples, and > > united Western humanity in the name of an idea." > > "And how tolerant you always are towards an idea! I would the more > > courteously remind you that the effect of the Crusades and the > > economic relations they stimulated was anything but favourable to > > internationalism." > > The Magic Mountain > > by Thomas Mann, Tr. Helen Tracy Lowe-Porter, p. 386 > > There you are, then. "More courteously because of that (referring to > Settembrini's tolerance). Sorry, I don't get this. > Without "the", the phrase would naturally > be taken to mean "more courteously than you". This I can see. Thanks. Marius >>>>> Do we have a good alternative for: >>>>> "the more" construction here? >>>>> What's specific about it? Do we really need the "the" article? >>>> At first glance it certainly looks odd. Could you post the >>>> previous sentence or two, in case there is something that might >>>> justify it? >>> Of course: >>> [The first to talk is Settembrini, answered by Naphta.] >>> "... I mean the period of the Crusades. These wars for >>> civilization stimulated economic and commercial relations between >>> peoples, and united Western humanity in the name of an idea." >>> "And how tolerant you always are towards an idea! I would the more >>> courteously remind you that the effect of the Crusades and the >>> economic relations they stimulated was anything but favourable to >>> internationalism." >>> The Magic Mountain >>> by Thomas Mann, Tr. Helen Tracy Lowe-Porter, p. 386 >> There you are, then. "More courteously because of that (referring >> to Settembrini's tolerance). > Sorry, I don't get this. "The" as a fossil remnant of Anglo-Saxon "thý" or "thé", in the instrumental case, again. Literally, "by that", but here better rendered by "because of that" or "for that". Not quite "therefore", but almost. {You are very tolerant! I would *because of that* [tolerance] remind you more courteously [than if you were not so tolerant] that blah blah blah.} Still considerable irony there, I suppose. [...] > >>> "... I mean the period of the Crusades. These wars for > >>> civilization stimulated economic and commercial relations between [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >>> economic relations they stimulated was anything but favourable to > >>> internationalism." > "The" as a fossil remnant of Anglo-Saxon "thý" or "thé", in the > instrumental case, again. Literally, "by that", but here better [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you more courteously [than if you were not so tolerant] that blah blah > blah.} Still considerable irony there, I suppose. Great stuff. Never heard of it. Thank you very much. Marius Hancu > "The" as a fossil remnant of Anglo-Saxon "thý" or "thé", in the > instrumental case, again. Literally, "by that" I think it's this: ----- the Function: adverb 1 : than before : than otherwise -- used before a comparative <I am none the wiser for attending that lecture> <instead of quieting down, they talked all the louder> <pulled his cot alongside the window, the better to lean his chin on the sill -- Ethel Anderson> 2 a : by how much : to what extent -- used before a comparative as one of the members, usually the first member, of the correlative pair the ... the ... <the sooner the better> <the harder you work, the sooner you will finish> b : by that much : to that extent -- used before a comparative as one of the members, usually the second member, of the correlative pair the ... the ... <the sooner the better> 3 : so as to exceed all others -- used before a superlative <of all my books I like this the best -- Charles Dickens> M-W Unabridged ------ Never quite thought about it as an adverb:-) Thanks. Marius Hancu >> "The" as a fossil remnant of Anglo-Saxon "thý" or "thé", in the >> instrumental case, again. Literally, "by that" > I think it's this: > the > Function: adverb > 1 : than before : than otherwise -- used before a comparative <I am > none the wiser for attending that lecture> <instead of quieting > down, they talked all the louder> <pulled his cot alongside the > window, the better to lean his chin on the sill -- Ethel Anderson> > 2 a : by how much : to what extent -- used before a comparative as > one of the members, usually the first member, of the correlative [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > member, of the correlative pair the ... the ... <the sooner the > better> > 3 : so as to exceed all others -- used before a superlative <of all > my books I like this the best -- Charles Dickens> > > M-W Unabridged > Never quite thought about it as an adverb:-) I agree, for the first two entries. Number 2 is clearly the instrumental, and number 1 can be seen as an extension of it. I'm not so sure about number 3, where the noun "best" seems to be being used as an adverb (it's been both since Anglo-Saxon times); in that case, "the" would be the regular definite article before a superlative -- there is only one, after all. I'm not completely happy with that analysis, but I don't much like the dictionary's take on it either. Must think. >>> "The" as a fossil remnant of Anglo-Saxon "thý" or "thé", in the >>> instrumental case, again. Literally, "by that" [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > analysis, but I don't much like the dictionary's take on it either. > Must think. Dash it, I was going to retire. Now I shan't sleep. What if we say that "the" in (3) is an irregular colloquialism, influenced by its use with superlative adjectives? I'm not at all sure it adds anything to plain "best", after all, and I'm pretty sure I'd never use it in formal language. This dodge might excuse us from trying to apply a traditional grammatical term...no, enough already: must so to bed. SignatureMike. >>>> "The" as a fossil remnant of Anglo-Saxon "thý" or "thé", in the >>>> instrumental case, again. Literally, "by that" >>> I think it's this: >>> the >>> Function: adverb >>> 1 : than before : than otherwise -- used before a comparative <I >>> am none the wiser for attending that lecture> <instead of quieting >>> down, they talked all the louder> <pulled his cot alongside the >>> window, the better to lean his chin on the sill -- Ethel Anderson> >>> 2 a : by how much : to what extent -- used before a comparative as >>> one of the members, usually the first member, of the correlative [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> member, of the correlative pair the ... the ... <the sooner the >>> better> >>> 3 : so as to exceed all others -- used before a superlative <of >>> all my books I like this the best -- Charles Dickens> >>> M-W Unabridged >>> Never quite thought about it as an adverb:-) >> I agree, for the first two entries. Number 2 is clearly the >> instrumental, and number 1 can be seen as an extension of it. I'm [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> happy with that analysis, but I don't much like the dictionary's >> take on it either. Must think. > Dash it, I was going to retire. Now I shan't sleep. What if we say > that "the" in (3) is an irregular colloquialism, influenced by its [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to apply a traditional grammatical term...no, enough already: must > so to bed. I have searched long for the thread, so as to be sure to reply in the proper place, but without success. Luckily, I anticipated the problem (I have 20,000 messages in my AUE file that won't die) and saved a reply blank against the time I might think of something to put in it. Sometimes that starts a new thread, is the problem. If I had replied right away, I would have greeted your dodge with glad cries, because "the" didn't seem to change the meaning at all: purely stylistic, it was. But before sleep last night, I began thinking, that's *thinking*, if I do have glasses, that there seems to be a difference between "He loved it most passionately" and "He loved it the most passionately". At least part of the difficulty may be peculiar to the usage of "like", and one wonders if its peculiarities may stem from its change of meaning from "please" to "be pleased by". One doesn't have a clue, of course. Also, the question occurred, does "He liked it best" mean that he liked it better than any other thing or that he liked it better than anyone else did? If it can mean the latter, then adding "the" does have a distinguishing effect, because (I think) "He liked it the best" can only mean that he liked it better than any other thing. Always happy to report progress, in whatever direction. [...] > I have searched long for the thread, so as to be sure to reply in the > proper place, but without success. Luckily, I anticipated the problem > (I have 20,000 messages in my AUE file that won't die) and saved a > reply blank against the time I might think of something to put in it. [...] Aha! Why didn't I think of keeping a reply blank? Excellent idea, which I shall now proceed to put into practice, since I must to daughter's for soup-to-nuts this evening. More in due course. But I too decided, on my humble palliasse, that there was a difference between "+the" and "-the", but couldn't nail it down. SignatureMike. >>>> The Magic Mountain >>>> by Thomas Mann, Tr. Helen Tracy Lowe-Porter, p. 386 [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > [...] Wonderful! Thank you, Charles. I had been expecting some kind of "to..." or "for..." clause, giving a reason or purpose, analogous to the wolf's "all the better to eat you with". But I didn't at all understand why; it just seemed to need one for "the more courteously" to sound right. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au [ "And how tolerant you always are towards an idea! I would the more courteously remind you that..."] >> "The" as a fossil remnant of Anglo-Saxon "thý" or "thé", in the >> instrumental case, again. Literally, "by that", but here better >> rendered by "because of that" or "for that". Not quite >> "therefore", but almost. >> {You are very tolerant! I would *because of that* [tolerance] >> remind you more courteously [than if you were not so tolerant] >> that blah blah blah.} Still considerable irony there, I suppose. >> [...] > Wonderful! Thank you, Charles. I had been expecting some kind of > "to..." or "for..." clause, giving a reason or purpose, analogous > to the wolf's "all the better to eat you with". But I didn't at all > understand why; it just seemed to need one for "the more > courteously" to sound right. I would say that the wolf was using it in roughly the same way. "What big teeth you have!" "[My teeth are] much (=all) *because of that* [bigness] better to eat you with." Actually, maybe that "all" needs more thinking about. Completely? |
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