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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009Perhaps Off Topic / liberalism and conservative
Hi, I was reading /Hailing While Black/ by Shelby Steele. The article is available here: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1000422,00.html ---------- In Manhattan recently I attempted something that is thought to be all but impossible for a black man: I tried to hail a cab going uptown toward Harlem after dark. And I'll admit to feeling a new nervousness. This simple action--black man hailing cab--is now a tableau in America's ongoing culture war. __If no cab swerves in to pick me up, America is still a racist country, and the entire superstructure of contemporary liberalism is bolstered. If I catch a ride, conservatives can breath easier.__ So, as I raise my hand and step from the curb, much is at stake. ---------- (The first paragraph) I don't quite understand the political context, and I kinda fail to comprehend the part within the underscores. And I don't mean to incense anyone... :-| Best Wishes Tacia > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > comprehend the part within the underscores. > And I don't mean to incense anyone... :-| Well get rid of the 'kinda' then. >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> comprehend the part within the underscores. >> And I don't mean to incense anyone... :-| I'm not sure what your difficulty is, but it could be because you live in country that uses "liberal" and "conservative" differently than we do in the United States. A formal explanation, copied from a website, is: Today the word "liberalism" is used differently in different countries. (See Liberalism worldwide.) One of the greatest contrasts is between the usage in the United States and usage in the rest of the world, most sharply in Continental Europe.[30] In the US, liberalism is usually understood to refer to modern liberalism, as contrasted with conservatism. American liberals endorse regulation for business, a limited social welfare state, and support broad racial, ethnic, sexual and religious tolerance, and thus more readily embrace Pluralism, and affirmative action. In Europe, on the other hand, liberalism is characterized by beliefs in free trade and limited government; it is not only contrasted with conservatism and Christian Democracy, but also with socialism and social democracy. In some countries, European liberals share common positions with Christian Democrats. A less formal explanation - and one more to the point of this article - is that US liberals tend to think that racism has not been eradicated in the US, and US conservatives think that everything that needs to be done to eradicate racism has been done. If the cab picks the writer (an African-American) and agrees to take him to Harlem (a predominately African-American area of New York City, then this is a sign that racism is less prevalent today, and the conservative's views are correct. If no cab will stop, this is a sign that racism is still a problem and the liberal view is correct. The test is, of course, completely bogus. The results are more likely to be determined by the individual attitude of the cab driver and not any sign of changing social attitudes in general. Steele is writer, though, and needs something to write about. Without a "hook", he has no story. The test is also bogus because the cab driver's attitude will be based on several factors, and not just that taking a black man to Harlem will endanger him (prejudice based on all blacks being criminals) or that he will not be compensated adequately (prejudice based on blacks not tipping as generously as whites). The cab driver's attitude may be based solely on wanted short hops and not long drives. Or that he's about to go off-shift. Or that he thinks that tourists of any color are better tippers.  SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > The test is also bogus because the cab driver's attitude will be based > on several factors, and not just that taking a black man to Harlem [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > about to go off-shift. Or that he thinks that tourists of any color > are better tippers. Let me guess, Tony: you've never actually been a black man trying to hail a cab. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> The test is also bogus because the cab driver's attitude will be based >> on several factors, and not just that taking a black man to Harlem [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Let me guess, Tony: you've never actually been a black man trying to hail a >cab. Good guess. However, I have ridden in many Manhattan cabs. To set up a Manhattan cab driver as some sort of indicator of racial attitude in the US is completely bogus. The cab driver is most likely to be of some racial/ethnic minority himself, not American, or not representative of Americans in general. Yet, Steele is projecting the possible outcome of the hailing to be indicative of a nationwide attitude change or non-change in racial perception. He's willing to say the liberals are right, or the conservatives are right, based on the actions of someone who is not representative of either group. All he can conclude is that it is easier, or it is not easier, for a black man to get a Manhattan cab driver to take a fare to Harlem. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> The test is also bogus because the cab driver's attitude will be based >>> on several factors, and not just that taking a black man to Harlem [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > some racial/ethnic minority himself, not American, or not > representative of Americans in general. Nonetheless, the legendary unwillingness of many NYC cabbies to pick up African-American fares or to take fares to certain neighborhoods is widely regarded as (among other things) symbolic of American lack of political will to ensure that public services are offered on a non-discriminatory basis. > Yet, Steele is projecting the possible outcome of the hailing to be > indicative of a nationwide attitude change or non-change in racial > perception. He's willing to say the liberals are right, or the > conservatives are right, based on the actions of someone who is not > representative of either group. He's speaking in symbolic terms, too. He is also speaking tongue-in-cheek, which is evident from the full article even if your ironimeter can't detect it in the opening sentences quoted by the OP. > All he can conclude is that it is easier, or it is not easier, for a > black man to get a Manhattan cab driver to take a fare to Harlem. Yes, that's what a purely scientific analysis might deduce, after repeated sampling. Steele makes it clear that what he is doing in the article is meditating on racism and liberalism (and his own journey to conservatism) as he collects a single data point on a particular day. He clearly is aware that the fact that he got picked up by the first cab that day doesn't guarantee that he won't be passed by on a future ocassion, as has happend in the past. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>> The test is also bogus because the cab driver's attitude will be based >>>> on several factors, and not just that taking a black man to Harlem [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >will to ensure that public services are offered on a non-discriminatory >basis. I really don't understand that thinking. I can see how it is symbolic of how the City of New York is unwilling to ensure, but not how this can be extrapolated to a symbol of "American lack of political will". >> Yet, Steele is projecting the possible outcome of the hailing to be >> indicative of a nationwide attitude change or non-change in racial [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >which is evident from the full article even if your ironimeter can't detect >it in the opening sentences quoted by the OP. The OP is questioning the political context involving liberals and conservatives. I attempted to deal with that, but I thought it was necessary to point out that this is not a valid indicator of changes. I didn't feel it was necessary to comment on the tone of the article. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>> The test is also bogus because the cab driver's attitude will be based >>>>> on several factors, and not just that taking a black man to Harlem [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > of how the City of New York is unwilling to ensure, but not how this > can be extrapolated to a symbol of "American lack of political will". New York is itself symbolic of America. It's also not the only town in which black men have encountered difficulty hailing cabs. >>> Yet, Steele is projecting the possible outcome of the hailing to be >>> indicative of a nationwide attitude change or non-change in racial [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > necessary to point out that this is not a valid indicator of changes. > I didn't feel it was necessary to comment on the tone of the article. And I, on the other hand, felt it _was_ necessary to examine the tone of the article and point out that the author was not in any way intending to represent the one incident he was narrating as a definitive, scientific test of a precise hypothesis. In other words, you, he, and I are agreed on the objective merits of his "test". We can leave it at that, I think. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson filted: >> I really don't understand that thinking. I can see how it is symbolic >> of how the City of New York is unwilling to ensure, but not how this >> can be extrapolated to a symbol of "American lack of political will". > >New York is itself symbolic of America. It's only New Yorkers who think so....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >It's only New Yorkers who think so....r I almost posted the same comment. I doubt if many people in Wichita or Amarillo are aware of the problems blacks have in hailing taxis in Manhattan. There are things about New York City that are recognized as symbolic of America all across the country, but not everything that goes on there is. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> Roland Hutchinson filted: >>>> I really don't understand that thinking. I can see how it is >>>> symbolic of how the City of New York is unwilling to ensure, but [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > as symbolic of America all across the country, but not everything that > goes on there is. You just made me remember an acquaintance of mine, back from the late 1960s in Seattle. About him was written: =================== This was [Harry] McFadden's last tournament; in little more than a week he'd be dead, for, as I'd mentioned in Vol. IV, he'd be fatally shot outside his cab by a passenger he may have struggled with. Dr. Michael Scott told me that Harry was a tough guy and, though he sometimes worked bad neighborhoods, had vowed never to give in to anyone who'd threaten him. Michael said that all the cab drivers in Seattle showed up to pay their respects at his funeral, and that a table tennis flower setting was arranged: a large bed of carnations, red with a white center (to represent the red rubber racket and the white ball). Michael himself offered a $5,000 reward for information leading to the capture of the killer, and he was eventually found, arrested, and convicted. ==================== Ref.: http://www.usatt.org/articles/history06/history06_05.shtml I had played Harry many times with very meager success. He was a good guy. I had left Seattle by the time of his demise, but I heard about it when it happened. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > Roland Hutchinson filted: >>> I really don't understand that thinking. I can see how it is >>> symbolic of how the City of New York is unwilling to ensure, but >>> not how this can be extrapolated to a symbol of "American lack of >>> political will". >> New York is itself symbolic of America. > It's only New Yorkers who think so....r Some others do too. Osama didn't choose New York for his symbolic castration of your country any more randomly than he chose Washington for his symbolic rape. > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It's only New Yorkers who think so....r And people in other countries. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> Roland Hutchinson filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And people in other countries. *Some* people in other countries. SignatureDavid >>> Roland Hutchinson filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > *Some* people in other countries. Yes, that's what I meant by my unquantified "people" -- but thank you for the necessary clarification. Not all New Yorkers think so, either! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>> Roland Hutchinson filted: >>>>> New York is itself symbolic of America. >>>> It's only New Yorkers who think so....r >>> And people in other countries. >> *Some* people in other countries. >Not all New Yorkers think so, either! Sure. Some of them understand that Boston is the Hub of the Solar System. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>>>> Roland Hutchinson filted: >>>>>> New York is itself symbolic of America. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Sure. Some of them understand that Boston is the Hub of the Solar > System. Of the Universe, rather! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> [I wrote:] >> Sure. Some of them understand that Boston is the Hub of the Solar >> System. > >Of the Universe, rather! That's not how Holmes put it. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>> [I wrote:] >>> Sure. Some of them understand that Boston is the Hub of the Solar [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That's not how Holmes put it. A good point. I believe, however, that he has been outvoted by generations of Greater Bostonians by now. Well, a couple of generations, anyway, since galaxies got themselves discovered 'n' stuff. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> Roland Hutchinson filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >And people in other countries. And by people circling the planet. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >>> Roland Hutchinson filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >And by people circling the planet. Looking for a place to park the saucer?...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Looking for a place to park the saucer?...r They'd by wise, as all Martians are, to park it outside the city and take the train in. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>Chuck Riggs filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > They'd by wise, as all Martians are, to park it outside the city and > take the train in. I understand that they generally park at Grovers Mill and take catch train at Princeton Junction. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >Chuck Riggs filted: > >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > They'd by wise, as all Martians are, to park it outside the city and > take the train in. Why bother, when you can land anywhere right in the city centre? Like this one, parked on the Netherlands Railways main office building. <http://www.panoramio.com/photo/140791> (see google earth for a top view) Jan >>>>>> The test is also bogus because the cab driver's attitude will be based >>>>>> on several factors, and not just that taking a black man to Harlem [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >It's also not the only town in which black men have encountered difficulty >hailing cabs. Correct, sir. When I drove for Silver Spring Taxi near Washington, D.C., few of the white drivers would venture into the African-American sections of the city. Even as a lily-white white man, I did and never had a problem, but that may be because I am either fearless or foolish. The only problems I had were with the occasional obstreperous white person who thought I'd overcharged by going the long way. <snip> SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland [...] > I have ridden in many Manhattan cabs. �To set up > a Manhattan cab driver as some sort of indicator of racial attitude in > the US is completely bogus. �The cab driver is most likely to be of > some racial/ethnic minority himself, not American, or not > representative of Americans in general. � Those minorities are also people, made of flesh and blood; like any other people, they may be racist too, even against their own race. > >> Hi, > >> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > countries, European liberals share common positions with Christian > Democrats. Indeed. The Netherlands for example have a party (about 20% of the vote) that calls itself liberal, and that attempts to monopolize the term liberal. [1] Politically they are conservatives, and are members (with the British conservatives) of the conservative fraction in the european parliament. (conservative on economic matters, liberal on human rights issues) Jan [1] The party calls itself VVD, volkspartij voor vrijheid en democracy, (lit. People's Party for Freedom and Democracy) so naive Americans going by the words may take them for commies. > If the cab picks the writer (an African-American) and agrees to take > him to Harlem (a predominately African-American area of New York City, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > about to go off-shift. Or that he thinks that tourists of any color > are better tippers. Your arguments are entirely bogus. It is the combined attitudes of all the passing cab drivers that is being tested. "If no cab swerves in to pick me up..." was what it said, and if that happens it is not because of merely a single driver's convenience of the moment. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >> If the cab picks the writer (an African-American) and agrees to take >> him to Harlem (a predominately African-American area of New York City, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >pick me up..." was what it said, and if that happens it is not because >of merely a single driver's convenience of the moment. You feel that the author is going to stand on a Manhattan street corner, hail cabs, decline to get in any who stop for him, and remain there hailing more cabs because he's running a survey of the racial attitudes of cab drivers? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> If the cab picks the writer (an African-American) and agrees to take >>> him to Harlem (a predominately African-American area of New York City, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > there hailing more cabs because he's running a survey of the racial > attitudes of cab drivers? No, but keeping statistics on how many cabs pass him, on average, before one picks him up would yield meaningful data over the long run. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >>> If the cab picks the writer (an African-American) and agrees to take > >>> him to Harlem (a predominately African-American area of New York City, [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > No, but keeping statistics on how many cabs pass him, on average, before one > picks him up would yield meaningful data over the long run. What meaningful data? Suppose during a 15 minutes wait there were four empty cabs that passed him. One was driven by a racist driver who refused to pick him up on the grounds that he was Black. The other three didn't pick him up for three other different reasons such as previous commitment, driver's diarrhea and driver not seeing the man hailing the cab. All we know is that four drivers did not pick him up. Of course, you're free to draw any meaningful conclusions you want, including that everything happens for a reason, there are no coincidences and the like. >> >>> If the cab picks the writer (an African-American) and agrees to take >> >>> him to Harlem (a predominately African-American area of New York [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > everything happens for a reason, there are no coincidences and the > like. Well, you need a control as well -- such as a white man wearing the same suit hailing cabs in the next block. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >> >>> If the cab picks the writer (an African-American) and agrees to take > >> >>> him to Harlem (a predominately African-American area of New York [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > Well, you need a control as well -- such as a white man wearing the same > suit hailing cabs in the next block. Then replace "diarrhea" with mistaking the white man for an old acquaintance, or driver's change of mind due to suddenly remembering a pressing financial obligation. My point is that statistics cannot possibly take into account all circumstances, or, as someone else more famous said before, statistics can help you prove whatever you want to prove. [...] > My point is that statistics cannot possibly take into account all > circumstances, or, as someone else more famous said before, statistics > can help you prove whatever you want to prove. That isn't statistics. SignatureMike. > My point is that statistics cannot possibly take into account all > circumstances, or, as someone else more famous said before, statistics > can help you prove whatever you want to prove. If you can take all circumstances into account you don't need or want statistics, Jan >>>> If the cab picks the writer (an African-American) and agrees to take >>>> him to Harlem (a predominately African-American area of New York City, [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >No, but keeping statistics on how many cabs pass him, on average, before one >picks him up would yield meaningful data over the long run. You really think that's what he had in mind? Be just his luck to be picked up by the first. I'm not even sure it would be meaningful to note how many passed him by. I've hailed NYC cabs, and watched several go by without stopping. I don't know whether they missed my hand wave, whether I wasn't giving the proper NYC hand wave, whether they were unable to cut across the necessary lane, or whether my off-the-rack suit tipped me off as a moderate tipper. Could be they were busy feeding their goat and didn't see me. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Best Wishes > Tacia Take it as metaphorical language, or as a parable, not as a scientific proof or rational inference of the claim the author makes. Such claim doesn't even hold the experimental value of the parallel made by some observers between the Halloween costumes and the outcome of the presidential election the costumes allegedly predict. This is an opinion article, not scientific research; the author has the constitutional right to make any parallels and draw any inference he wants in order to support his opinion. There is no penalty for unsubstantiated claims or totally outlandish parallels and inferences. . >This is an opinion article, not scientific research; the author has >the constitutional right to make any parallels and draw any inference >he wants in order to support his opinion. There is no penalty for >unsubstantiated claims or totally outlandish parallels and >inferences. But don't forget that other Americans have the constitutional right to publicly state their opinion that an author is full of sh.t and making unsubstantiated statements. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > . Not only is there no penalty for unsubstantiated claims or totally outlandish parallels and inferences, but that appears to be the direction in which most of the rewards in publishing and MSM lie. The Gawker blog today discusses a view that the name reporters and pundits minimize the wrongs of white collar criminals like Madoff out of professional courtesy -- everyone rich is scrambling to sell their soul as fast as possible, no? -- Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego . |
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