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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009The Ellipsis
Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: 1. Use an ellipsis to indicate a long slow break: There it was again ... that soft but eerie sound. 2. Use ellipsis to indicate slow-downs in thought or conversation: They looked sweetly into each other's eyes until the moment was right, then slowly ... gently ... a kiss. I'll assume she knows what she's talking about, but I'm curious: why aren't these usages to be found in older texts or grammar sites on the net? Her book was copyright in 2006 EG >Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Her book was copyright in 2006 "Ellipsis" means something's missing, not three periods/full stops in a row.  Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >> ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > "Ellipsis" means something's missing, not three periods/full > stops in a row. Thanks, but that wasn't the question. EG E.G. Landers, I suppose, asks: >> Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >> ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> I'll assume she knows what she's talking about, but I'm curious: why >> aren't these usages to be found in older texts or grammar sites on the net? Perhaps because this is the sort of thing that some types of writing don't call for. If I came across the examples in a novel, I would not be surprised. But in a work of nonfiction, I would. > "Ellipsis" means something's missing, not three periods/full > stops in a row. "Ellipsis" is also the name of the punctuation mark that E.G. is asking about, which you know perfectly well . It does not consist of three periods in a row, but it is formed of the same three marks. (It's like the way a colon does not consist of two periods, but is formed of the same two marks.) SignatureMark Brader | "Oh, sure, you can make anything sound sleazy if you, Toronto | you know, tell it exactly the way it happened." msb@vex.net | -- Bruce Rasmussen: "Anything But Love" My text in this article is in the public domain. >> "Ellipsis" means something's missing, not three periods/full >> stops in a row. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >(It's like the way a colon does not consist of two periods, but is >formed of the same two marks.) But it's a punctuation mark that means something is missing. And I would hazard a guess that " * * * " might also be an ellipsis. As Wikipedia points out: "The most common form of an ellipsis is a row of three full stops (... or . . .). Forms encountered less often are: three asterisks (***), one em dash (), multiple en dashes (), and the Unicode Ellipsis symbol [ ]. "The triple-dot punctuation mark is also called a suspension point, points of ellipsis, periods of ellipsis, or colloquially, dot-dot-dot" As for calling them periods, I would be happy to call them by their correct name it I knew what that was, but even you don't mention what that might be. "Dot" is OK by me, though. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >"The triple-dot punctuation mark is also called a suspension >point, points of ellipsis, periods of ellipsis, or colloquially, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >their correct name it I knew what that was, but even you don't >mention what that might be. "Dot" is OK by me, though. You could always follow Victor Borge's example pht-pht-pht-pht r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" Dave Hatunen: >>> "Ellipsis" means something's missing, not three periods/full >>> stops in a row. Mark Brader: >> "Ellipsis" is also the name of the punctuation mark that E.G. is >> asking about, which you know perfectly well... Dave Hatunen: > But it's a punctuation mark that means something is missing. That's one meaning. The book E.G. cited gives some other meanings. > And I would hazard a guess that " * * * " might also be an ellipsis. It might be, in some situations. SignatureMark Brader | Peter Neumann on Y2K: Toronto | This problem gives new meaning to "going out on msb@vex.net | a date" (which many systems will do on 1/1/00). >> Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >> ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > "Ellipsis" means something's missing, not three periods/full > stops in a row. Here's a good discussion on the ellipsis in fiction: http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977420652&nav=Explore EG > Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three > ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Her book was copyright in 2006 I'm afraid the premise of your question is wrong. The first guide listed in our Intro B includes the same meaning. My guess is others do as well. http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/ellipsis.htm The ellipsis can also be used to indicate a pause in the flow of a sentence and is especially useful in quoted speech: Juan thought and thought ... and then thought some more. "I'm wondering ..." Juan said, bemused. SignatureBest wishes -- Donna Richoux >> I'll assume she knows what she's talking about, but I'm curious: why >> aren't these usages to be found in older texts or grammar sites on the net? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Juan thought and thought ... and then thought some more. >"I'm wondering ..." Juan said, bemused. I see the Wikipedia article says that en ellipsis can be used to idnicate a pause in the flow of a sentence so I partially withdraw my previous comment; I had never thought of such pauses as ellipses. That brings to mind what used to be called "three-dot journalism", newspaper items written by columnists like Herb Caen, pretty much the last of the breed. See http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-18175298.html where the first paragraph is an example of three-dot writing (not a very good example, thgh). Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three > ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: Three? You have only given two. One ellipsis has three dots. > 1. Use an ellipsis to indicate a long slow break: > There it was again ... that soft but eerie sound. > 2. Use ellipsis to indicate slow-downs in thought or conversation: > They looked sweetly into each other's eyes until the moment was right, > then slowly ... gently ... a kiss. > I'll assume she knows what she's talking about, but I'm curious: why > aren't these usages to be found in older texts or grammar sites on the net? She is writing about (I hope) a convention in dialogue, which has somewhat escaped to narration now that so many narrators seem to be speaking to or thinking at the reader. There are a number of conventions in dialogue that are not usually explained in style guides devised for academic writing or general non-fiction. The is not much danger of confusing the usages as the distinction between dialogue and quotation should be clear, even if both use quotation marks. SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> usenet@larseighner.com Bush's third term begins Jan. 20th with an invocation by Rick Warren. Obama: No hope; No change; More of the Same. >> Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >> ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > The is not much danger of confusing the usages as the distinction between > dialogue and quotation should be clear, even if both use quotation marks. Consider this: ----------------------------------> "What … is that?” he asked. "The castle of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, sir!” said the coachman, chest out, chin lifted. "Castle? ..." -------------------------------> Now, "Castle? ..." is correctly punctuated, but doesn't this make more sense? "Castle ...?" EG On 08 Jan 2009, elanders wrote >> In our last episode, <a2fa8$49659473$4ad7fee9$6147@FUSE.NET>, >> the lovely and talented elanders broadcast on [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > "Castle ...?" Not to me; it's speech, and the rising terminal to indicate a question is part of "castle", not part of the silent "...". A more likely conversational sequence would be "... Castle?" SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >>> Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >>> ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Consider this: It seems that you are trying to impart inflection with punctuation. This works sometimes, but not always. >----------------------------------> > >"What is that? he asked. This works. The punctuation clearly indicates the inflection. "What is that?" is a different inflection from "What...is that?" or "What. Is. That?" It indicate more than just a question; it indicates a question delivered with a great deal of emphasis on "What". >"The castle of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, sir! said the coachman, chest out, >chin lifted. > >"Castle? ..." This doesn't work. I think you are trying to convey that he is questioning the use of the word "castle" to describe the building. If this is the case, then use words - not punctuation - to convey it: "Castle?", he said with a curl of his lip. Or, "Castle?", he said pointing to the heap of rubble before him. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>> Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >>>> ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > "Castle?", he said with a curl of his lip. Or, "Castle?", he said > pointing to the heap of rubble before him. No, I don't want to add stage stuff like that. Someone else suggested ... "Castle?" EG >>>> In our last episode, <a2fa8$49659473$4ad7fee9$6147@FUSE.NET>, the >>>> lovely and [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > EG Actually, I meant they suggested, "…Castle?" Also, what about "huh?..." EG >>>> In our last episode, <a2fa8$49659473$4ad7fee9$6147@FUSE.NET>, the >>>> lovely and [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > No, I don't want to add stage stuff like that. Why not? I agree with Tony that word are far more effective than dots. Isn't "chest out, chin lifted" what you refer to as "stage stuff"? > Someone else suggested ... "Castle?" That strikes me as complete nonsense. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>> In our last episode, <a2fa8$49659473$4ad7fee9$6147@FUSE.NET>, the >>>>> lovely and [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > That strikes me as complete nonsense. You don't understand. There's a rhythm in humor that would be lost with an extended dialogue tag. I'm talking about beats. EG >>>>>> In our last episode, <a2fa8$49659473$4ad7fee9$6147@FUSE.NET>, the >>>>>> lovely and [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > You don't understand. There's a rhythm in humor that would be lost with > an extended dialogue tag. I'm talking about beats. Me, I'm just an ordinary English reader - what would I know of humor, dialogue tags or beats? (My book doesn't have any of those things.)I bow to your expertise and will rush round to Mr Dean's to borrow his copy of your book when it arrives. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>>> In our last episode, <a2fa8$49659473$4ad7fee9$6147@FUSE.NET>, the >>>>>>> lovely and [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > to your expertise and will rush round to Mr Dean's to borrow his copy of > your book when it arrives. The concept is simple enough: Less is more. EG >>>>>>>> In our last episode, <a2fa8$49659473$4ad7fee9$6147@FUSE.NET>, >>>>>>>> the lovely and [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > Less is more. Not always. (Particularly not with regard to "*The* Queen Mother".) SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>>>>> In our last episode, <a2fa8$49659473$4ad7fee9$6147@FUSE.NET>, >>>>>>>>> the lovely and [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > Not always. (Particularly not with regard to "*The* Queen Mother".) It will bother you the first time you see it, but by the time you turn the page you'll be wondering how you lived without it. EG >>>>> You don't understand. There's a rhythm in humor that would be lost >>>>> with an extended dialogue tag. I'm talking about beats. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It will bother you the first time you see it, but by the time you turn > the page you'll be wondering how you lived without it. Not me, too many other good things to read to bother with something that irritates me from the get go. But your optimism is .... sorry, I'm struggling for a suitable word. Have you had previous publishing success with this genre of historical farce? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>> You don't understand. There's a rhythm in humor that would be lost >>>>>> with an extended dialogue tag. I'm talking about beats. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > struggling for a suitable word. Have you had previous publishing success > with this genre of historical farce? You seem to be a person in search of a punchline. EG >>>>>>> You don't understand. There's a rhythm in humor that would be >>>>>>> lost with an extended dialogue tag. I'm talking about beats. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > You seem to be a person in search of a punchline. <chuckle> Story of my life, Luigi. Toujours sur l'escalier. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 08 Jan 2009, elanders wrote >>> It will bother you the first time you see it, but by the time >>> you turn the page you'll be wondering how you lived without [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You seem to be a person in search of a punchline. I always wonder why people bother to post to AUE asking for opinions on their writing when they're clearly convinced that their text is pretty damn close to perfect. If someone's looking for a Usenet group that trades primarily in ego- reinforcement, this is the wrong door to knock on. SignatureHarvey This is the room for an argument; you want 3A, down the corridor. > On 08 Jan 2009, elanders wrote > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > If someone's looking for a Usenet group that trades primarily in ego- > reinforcement, this is the wrong door to knock on. Gives us the occasional bit of fun, though, don't you think? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 08 Jan 2009, LFS wrote >> On 08 Jan 2009, elanders wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Gives us the occasional bit of fun, though, don't you think? And we're even willing to argue in our own time... SignatureCheers, Harvey *You* want to complain? Look at these shoes - I've only had them for two weeks, and already the soles are out. > On 08 Jan 2009, LFS wrote > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > And we're even willing to argue in our own time... I'm an academic, I get paid to argue. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 08 Jan 2009, LFS wrote >> On 08 Jan 2009, LFS wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > I'm an academic, I get paid to argue. [ding!] Sorry; your five minutes are up. SignatureCheers, Harvey That was never five minutes! >> On 08 Jan 2009, LFS wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >I'm an academic, I get paid to argue. Academics are peaceful compared to the lawyers. Where is Bob Lieblich? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> On 08 Jan 2009, LFS wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Academics are peaceful compared to the lawyers. Where is Bob Lieblich? Having time away from the group: Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:59:29 -0500 Well, I'm about to desert for another week or so. I gotta retire soon, if only to stop feeling that I have to leave town every chance I get -- and indulging that feeling. Happy new year to all. -- Bob Lieblich No "ano" this year, not even for PG SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> On 08 Jan 2009, LFS wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Bob Lieblich > No "ano" this year, not even for PG Thank you, Peter. I missed that post, somehow. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> On 08 Jan 2009, LFS wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >I'm an academic, I get paid to argue. I'm a grumpy old man, and do it gratis. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> On 08 Jan 2009, LFS wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >I'm a grumpy old man, and do it gratis. You're only able to do that because you were trained at enormous expense by IBM. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> On 08 Jan 2009, LFS wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >You're only able to do that because you were trained at enormous expense by >IBM. No, I was born grumpy. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > > On 08 Jan 2009,LFSwrote > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > I'm an academic, I get paid to argue. Gosh, back when I was one too I never realised that was what I got paid to do. If only I'd known! Maybe I can introduce the concept to my present work place. Come to think of it, many others seem to have imported the idea already, I just need to catch up. atb, S in B > If someone's looking for a Usenet group that trades primarily in ego- > reinforcement, this is the wrong door to knock on. Shhh, shhh! I'm enjoying this. SignatureSML On 09 Jan 2009, Sara Lorimer wrote >> If someone's looking for a Usenet group that trades primarily >> in ego- reinforcement, this is the wrong door to knock on. > > Shhh, shhh! I'm enjoying this. Oops; sorry. (I suspect it's a friend or relative of PG...) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 09 Jan 2009, Sara Lorimer wrote > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Oops; sorry. (I suspect it's a friend or relative of PG...) "elanders" has the email address elanders@zoomtown.com zoomtown.com is a Cincinatti Bell broadband service. PG is in California. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>On 09 Jan 2009, Sara Lorimer wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >PG is in California. PG has often claimed to be a professor or teacher. Perhaps this is one of her students. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>> You don't understand. There's a rhythm in humor that would be lost >>>>>>> with an extended dialogue tag. I'm talking about beats. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >You seem to be a person in search of a punchline. She is "one word short of a punchline" as she might have said when she appeared on TV. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>>>> You don't understand. There's a rhythm in humor that would be lost >>>>>>>> with an extended dialogue tag. I'm talking about beats. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > She is "one word short of a punchline" as she might have said when she > appeared on TV. Very nice, Peter, very nice. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > You seem to be a person in search of a punchline. Is your work intended to be an entry in the Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest? SignatureLew >> You seem to be a person in search of a punchline. > > Is your work intended to be an entry in the Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest? Oh, look here, everyone -- an a.shole! We were all wondering when one would show up. EG >>> You seem to be a person in search of a punchline. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > We were all wondering when one would show up. I don't think we were... Damn, these dots do keep creeping in, don't they? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) LFS filted: >> Oh, look here, everyone -- an a.shole! >> >> We were all wondering when one would show up. > >I don't think we were... Damn, these dots do keep creeping in, don't they? Creepin' Dots...the maggot-infested ice cream of the future....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > LFS filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Creepin' Dots...the maggot-infested ice cream of the future....r Do you attend sporting events? That's typically where I see the "ice cream of the future." It's been a while since they started that, I wonder when it will become the ice cream of the present. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> LFS filted: >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > cream of the future." It's been a while since they started that, I > wonder when it will become the ice cream of the present. Presently. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Default User filted: >> LFS filted: >> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >cream of the future." It's been a while since they started that, I >wonder when it will become the ice cream of the present. The first time I saw it (in a movie-theater lobby), my first thought was "you could put the same sign on a haystack"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Default User filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > The first time I saw it (in a movie-theater lobby), Ah, yes, that's another logical place. I haven't been to the movies in many years. > my first thought > was "you could put the same sign on a haystack"....r Ha. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >>> You seem to be a person in search of a punchline. >> >> Is your work intended to be an entry in the Bulwer-Lytton Fiction >> Contest? > > Oh, look here, everyone -- an a.shole! Takes one to know one. > We were all wondering when one would show up. Not really, it was a /fait accompli/ at the start of this thread. SignatureLew >>>> You seem to be a person in search of a punchline. >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Not really, it was a /fait accompli/ at the start of this thread. You stupid f.ck. I'd insult but it would take you two days to look up the woods I'd use. EG >>>>> You seem to be a person in search of a punchline. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >I'd insult but it would take you two days to look up the woods I'd use. We can hardly bear with you. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>> You seem to be a person in search of a punchline. >>>>> Is your work intended to be an entry in the Bulwer-Lytton Fiction [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > "We can hardly bear with you" What ...? What is that a new dance or something -- the bear? If not, what the hell are you talking about, Tony? EG >>> I'd insult but it would take you two days to look up the woods I'd use. >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >If not, what the hell are you talking about, Tony? What does a bear do in the woods? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>> I'd insult but it would take you two days to look up the woods I'd use. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What does a bear do in the woods? The same thing the Pope does in the woods. Why? EG > >>>> I'd insult but it would take you two days to look up the woods I'd use. > >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Why? It's plain that you've totally missed Tony's point. (Or, as the shorthand around here has it: "Whoosh!") Read the sentence preceding his first comment and reflect on the mistyped word. SignatureBob Lieblich Can't you just see Purl Gurl playing with this person? >> >>>> I'd insult but it would take you two days to look up the woods I'd use. >> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >It's plain that you've totally missed Tony's point. There's a surprise. >(Or, as the >shorthand around here has it: "Whoosh!") Read the sentence preceding >his first comment and reflect on the mistyped word. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>> I'd insult but it would take you two days to look up the woods I'd use. >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> shorthand around here has it: "Whoosh!") Read the sentence preceding >> his first comment and reflect on the mistyped word. I know you haven't the slightest idea what he's talking about, Tony, but neither does he, so it's all right. EG >>>>>> I'd insult but it would take you two days to look up the woods I'd use. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > shorthand around here has it: "Whoosh!") Read the sentence preceding > his first comment and reflect on the mistyped word. Tony has no point. It took me less than an hour after arriving here to figure that out. Why haven't you figured it out yet? EG >> >>>> I'd insult but it would take you two days to look up the woods I'd use. >> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >shorthand around here has it: "Whoosh!") Read the sentence preceding >his first comment and reflect on the mistyped word. ...if you have absolutely nothing better to do, that is, which is hard to imagine. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >> >>>> I'd insult but it would take you two days to look up the woods I'd use. > >> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > ...if you have absolutely nothing better to do, that is, which is hard > to imagine. Hey, Chuck, he's posting to AUE. That proves he has absolutely nothing better to do. He also fails to understand that Tony C. understood me perfectly, as I did Tony. After the first ten years or so, you don't need all the exposition. SignatureBob Lieblich I HAVE been here too long >>>>>>>> I'd insult but it would take you two days to look up the woods I'd use. >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > understood me perfectly, as I did Tony. After the first ten years or > so, you don't need all the exposition. Crossword Puzzle Bob... Hahahahahaha..... EG >> >> >>>> I'd insult but it would take you two days to look up the woods I'd use. >> >> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >understood me perfectly, as I did Tony. After the first ten years or >so, you don't need all the exposition. Yes, there have been times when I imagine that AUE is a fountain of English usage knowledge, its purpose being to help us write better, but an LSD experimenter couldn't have wilder fantasies. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>>>>> I'd insult but it would take you two days to look up the woods I'd use. >>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > English usage knowledge, its purpose being to help us write better, > but an LSD experimenter couldn't have wilder fantasies. Huh...? LSD experimenter couldn't have wider fantasies...? What exactly were your trying to say there, Chuck? EG >> Yes, there have been times when I imagine that AUE is a fountain of >> English usage knowledge, its purpose being to help us write better, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >What exactly were your trying to say there, Chuck? He needs glasses, too.... Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * elanders filted: >>>>> You seem to be a person in search of a punchline. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >EG I don't know why I've put this off for as long as I have...say hello to my killfile....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > elanders filted: >>>>>> You seem to be a person in search of a punchline. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I don't know why I've put this off for as long as I have...say hello to my > killfile....r I'd move you to my kill file but you'd caused white flight. EG >>> The concept is simple enough: >>> >>> Less is more. If "less is more", why do you not trim your posts? SignatureLew >>>> The concept is simple enough: >>>> >>>> Less is more. > > If "less is more", why do you not trim your posts? I'll trim your sentence: If "less is more", why don't you trim your posts? See how it works? EG >>>>> Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >>>>> ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > >No, I don't want to add stage stuff like that. (giggle) >Someone else suggested ... "Castle?" > >EG SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida tony cooper filted: >>> This doesn't work. I think you are trying to convey that he is >>> questioning the use of the word "castle" to describe the building. If [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >(giggle) "Castle?", he repeated, his hand hovering above his king's rook....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three > ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > They looked sweetly into each other's eyes until the moment was right, > then slowly ... gently ... a kiss. I find the first of these odd, and the second acceptable, at least in informal writing, or in reported dialogue in a novel. What's No. 3? Signatureathel >> Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >> ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > What's No. 3? So you would have problems with this. Note the interior monologue in the first paragraph, and the dialogue in the second: ----------------------------------------> The German and the Englishman walked into the castle. Two young women were standing in the foyer: one, quite the German beauty and exactly what Shackleton had hoped for ... the other ... not beautiful in the least ... some kind of ethnic mix ... all wrong. Shackleton immediately hoped she wasn't Princess Charlotte. "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess Albertina ... and this one, Princess Charlotte." -----------------------------------------> EG >>> Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >>> ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > least ... some kind of ethnic mix ... all wrong. Shackleton > immediately hoped she wasn't Princess Charlotte. Yes, I wouldn't write that. I'd use em dashes instead. > "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess Albertina > ... and this one, Princess Charlotte." I have less objection to that. I repeat: what's No. 3? You said that there were three cases but only mentioned two. Signatureathel >>>> Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >>>> ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > I repeat: what's No. 3? You said that there were three cases but only > mentioned two. Actually, there were only two. But I'd like to get some feedback on your objection to the first example. It follows the second rule I cited: 2. Use ellipsis to indicate slow-downs in thought or conversation. Are you saying the example below is grammatically wrong or just that you would do it differently? -----------------------------------------------> >>The German and the Englishman walked into the castle. Two young women >> were standing in the foyer: one, quite the German beauty and exactly >> what Shackleton had hoped for ... the other ... not beautiful in the >> least ... some kind of ethnic mix ... all wrong. Shackleton >> immediately hoped she wasn't Princess Charlotte. EG --------------------------------------------------> > Are you saying the example below is grammatically wrong or just that you > would do it differently? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >> least ... some kind of ethnic mix ... all wrong. Shackleton > >> immediately hoped she wasn't Princess Charlotte. I'm not him: I'm just an ordinary American reader. I'd do it differently. All the ellipses but the second jar horribly to my eye. I'd replace each one with a full stop (hmm, maybe I'm not an "ordinary American reader" after all: I've been polluted by britishisms. Let's just pretend I wrote "period", ok?) Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- A book that sells 100,000 copies is a bestseller. A CD that sells 100,000 copies is an expensive stiff. A TV show that 100,000 people watch is the worst failure in the history of TV. -- Terrell Miller >> Are you saying the example below is grammatically wrong or just that you >> would do it differently? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Jim Deutch (JimboCat) > -- Doesn't Tom Wolfe use the ellipsis this way? Can I get some more feedback on this before I change it throughout the manuscript, please? EG > > "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess Albertina > > ... and this one, Princess Charlotte." > > I have less objection to that. I'm sure the introduction is the wrong way around. The Duke would address himself to his sister and introduce Shackleton *to her*. Then he would tell Shackleton who she was. Like: "Alberta, may I present Mr. John Shackleton of New York. (To Shackleton) Her royal highness the Princess Alberta of Monaco." Since there are two sisters, I think he'd address both together, but I'm not sure. We've got people around here who are better at this than I am. I'm sure it would have been rude to call Charlotte "this one" unless this is some completely modern, informal setting. We haven't got an era yet, have we? SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>> "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess Albertina >>> ... and this one, Princess Charlotte." [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > this is some completely modern, informal setting. We haven't got an era > yet, have we? 18th century remote German duchy of Mecklenburg-Strelitz. For what it's worth, when ordinary people read my excerpts they absolutely never comment on the hair-splitting I get in writing and usage groups. They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken by 18th century Brits. The problem this poses for me is whether I should write for them or the critics. EG >>>> "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess Albertina >>>> ... and this one, Princess Charlotte." [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >absolutely never comment on the hair-splitting I get in writing and >usage groups. I don't know if I'm dismayed or flattered to be among the non-ordinary. I only know that I wish I had a hair to split. I do wonder why you come to this group for advice when you seem to know that the advice that will be forthcoming is not what you want to hear. >They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken by >18th century Brits. > >The problem this poses for me is whether I should write for them or the >critics. Or even at all. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>> "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess Albertina >>>>> ... and this one, Princess Charlotte." [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > know that the advice that will be forthcoming is not what you want to > hear. Why do you wonder about this? EG >>>>>> "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess Albertina >>>>>> ... and this one, Princess Charlotte." [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Why do you wonder about this? It seemed an obvious point, one I'd have raised myself if Tony hadn't got there first. Signatureathel >>>>>>> "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess >>>>>>> Albertina [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > It seemed an obvious point, one I'd have raised myself if Tony hadn't > got there first. What seems to be an obvious point? EG > >>> I do wonder why you come to this group for advice when you seem to > >>> know that the advice that will be forthcoming is not what you want to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What seems to be an obvious point? I'm with you on this one, EG Elanders -- I think you've been taking my suggestions as gracefully as could be expected, both the asked-for and the unasked-for ones. We've seen people resist advice much harder than you have so far. And I totally believe that you found an audience that loved your stuff and didn't criticize. I just have the feeling they were young and romantic, while here you have a bunch of middle-aged and elderly cranks. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> >>> I do wonder why you come to this group for advice when you seem to >> >>> know that the advice that will be forthcoming is not what you want to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >and didn't criticize. I just have the feeling they were young and >romantic, while here you have a bunch of middle-aged and elderly cranks. There are even some cranky cranks among us. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>>>>> "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess >>>>>>>> Albertina [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > >What seems to be an obvious point? I love this thread. It is the "Bolero" of threads. It starts quietly, with the gentle sound of restrained chuckles, then the tempo increases until it cascades into the roar of belly-laughs. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>>> "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess Albertina >>>>>>>> ... and this one, Princess Charlotte." [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > What seems to be an obvious point? It seemed obvious to wonder why you keep returning to a group that gives you hair-slitting comments whereas you give every impression of preferring the opinions of "ordinary people". Hint: If you don't want hair-splitting comments don't ask questions in a usage group. Signatureathel >>>>>>>>> "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess >>>>>>>>> Albertina [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > Hint: If you don't want hair-splitting comments don't ask questions in a > usage group. Why is what I do causing you such teeth-gnashing trauma? EG [...] >>>>>> I do wonder why you come to this group for advice when you seem >>>>>> to know that the advice that will be forthcoming is not what you [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Why is what I do causing you such teeth-gnashing trauma? You wish. Why not answer the question? [...] >> Why is what I do causing you such teeth-gnashing trauma? >> > You wish. Why not answer the question? Is anyone else reminded of "ricland", who passed by here some months ago? SignatureLes (BrE) Just a thought > >> Why is what I do causing you such teeth-gnashing trauma? > >> > > You wish. Why not answer the question? > > Is anyone else reminded of "ricland", who passed by here some months ago? Why, yes, I saw that name as signature on two of elanders' recent "Grammar Question" posts. Meant nothing to me.... My newsreader says they are: Message-ID: <29bfb$49665b89$4ad7fee9$4056@FUSE.NET> Message-ID: <a4954$496635ab$4ad7fee9$12341@FUSE.NET> ..Hmm, checking the archives shows that ricland/riclanders/Eric Landers has posted here occasionally over the last two years. A fair amount of trollish and off-topic behavior. Well, if he wants to make a fresh start writing fantasies about British royalty, it makes me no never mind. SignatureHoping for the best -- Donna Richoux >> >> Why is what I do causing you such teeth-gnashing trauma? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Well, if he wants to make a fresh start writing fantasies about British >royalty, it makes me no never mind. Google found 289 instances of "it makes me no never mind". I was surprised to see even that many, for Donna's use of the expression is the first I've noticed. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> Why is what I do causing you such teeth-gnashing trauma? >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > surprised to see even that many, for Donna's use of the expression is > the first I've noticed. I would say (and do say), "It makes no never mind", which I find to be surprisingly uncommon in Google Groups, where people are typing colloquially. There are 2,500 web hits but they seem to be skewed by a an LP title. SignatureDavid >>>>>> Why is what I do causing you such teeth-gnashing trauma? >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >colloquially. There are 2,500 web hits but they seem to be skewed by a >an LP title. "It makes *me* no never mind" is what surprised me, although I've heard "it makes no never mind" many times. I associate either expression with a hick, which is why the variation from Donna surprised me. When I've heard it, it was generally in remote parts of Virginia, West Virginia and Pennsylvania while white water canoeing with Big George. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> >> Why is what I do causing you such teeth-gnashing trauma? >>> >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > surprised to see even that many, for Donna's use of the expression is > the first I've noticed. Now you've drawn attention to it, I see it's a new one to me as well, and I'm not too sure what it actually means. I think I read it as "it makes me ... No, never mind". SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>>>>> Why is what I do causing you such teeth-gnashing trauma? >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I think I read it as "it makes me ... No, never mind". My version, "It makes no never mind", means "It's of no consequence". Donna's "me" turns it into "It's all the same to me". Donna, is this your US native language or have you picked it up from BBC or other Brits? SignatureDavid [...] >>>> Well, if he wants to make a fresh start writing fantasies about >>>> British royalty, it makes me no never mind. [...] >>> Google found 289 instances of "it makes me no never mind". I was >>> surprised to see even that many, for Donna's use of the >>> expression is the first I've noticed. >> Now you've drawn attention to it, I see it's a new one to me as >> well, and I'm not too sure what it actually means. >> I think I read it as "it makes me ... No, never mind". > My version, "It makes no never mind", means "It's of no > consequence". Donna's "me" turns it into "It's all the same to me". > Donna, is this your US native language or have you picked it up > from BBC or other Brits? The canonical version seems to be "It don't make no nevermind." "Make no nevermind" gets 3,520 estimated Googlehits, and the Urban dictionary, in what appears to be a moment of sobriety, calls it "The South Carolina colloquialism for 'it does not matter.'" (11 thumbs up, 5 down) The Dictionary of American Regional English seems to concur, but the main definition is at "nevermind", on a restricted page. http://books.google.ca/books?id=eEB0YFR2EowC&pg=PA484&lpg=PA484&dq=%22make+no+ne vermind22&source=web&ots=S7OyRq7o52&sig=vJJkRCwRFEHPQ Afrk40_VzdthDE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result http://tinyurl.com/9lagea > >>> Well, if he wants to make a fresh start writing fantasies about British > >>> royalty, it makes me no never mind. > >> Google found 289 instances of "it makes me no never mind". I was > >> surprised to see even that many, for Donna's use of the expression is > >> the first I've noticed. > > > > Now you've drawn attention to it, I see it's a new one to me as well, > > and I'm not too sure what it actually means. > > I think I read it as "it makes me ... No, never mind". > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Donna, is this your US native language or have you picked it up from BBC > or other Brits? Definitely a US bit of rural jocularity... I probably should have said "It don't make me no nevermind" for the full flavor and impact. I checked RHHDAS which has similar versions but it had nothing with the "me" in the middle. It does show it sometimes at the end: "Makes no never mind to me." Their first citation implies it was 1924 mock-German-English, perhaps in a stage-show? I will have to see if I can track this down further. Why yes, it looks as if this is the one-in-a-hundred case where a folk saying can be traced to a single source. What the RHHDAS says is: 1924 Isman /Weber & Fields/ 83 [ref. to 1880's]: Dot makes no nefer mind Searching on Weber and Fields immediately turns up that they were a popular vaudeville comedy duo of the 1880s-on. This site says of them: http://www.musicals101.com/1890-1900b.htm They used false chin beards, pork pie hats, and outrageous German accents. Their dialogue relied on silly misunderstandings, and fans reveled in the team's knockabout physical battles. ... Both characters spoke fractured English -- WEBER: I am delightfulness to meet you! FIELDS: Der disgust is all mine! "Isman" is Felix Isman who wrote a biography of them, published 1924: "Weber & Fields, Their Tribulations, Triumphs and Their Associates." It looks to me as if they must be the source of this phrase. At Google Books, the earliest versions I could find of my particular version "makes me no never mind" (not "make," and not "nevermind") are: Publication - Page 87 by American Dialect Society - English language - 1952 don't cut no ice/makes me no never mind/don't make any difference/ 44 Great Day in the Morning - Page 172 by Florence Crannell Means - 1946 - 182 pages ... 1946 ... 'White young folks act loud and crazy, too.' 'That makes me no never-mind,' ... SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > Searching on Weber and Fields immediately turns up that they were a > popular vaudeville comedy duo of the 1880s-on. This site says of them: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > -- WEBER: I am delightfulness to meet you! > FIELDS: Der disgust is all mine! In other words, the were a "Dutchman" act. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > > Searching on Weber and Fields immediately turns up that they were a > > popular vaudeville comedy duo of the 1880s-on. This site says of them: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > In other words, the were a "Dutchman" act. Apparently so, that's almost the word the Musicals 101 site uses: Weber and Fields became vaudeville's definitive "Dutch" act (a corruption of "Deutsch" - i.e. "German"). Were there so many of these entertainers that the genre has a name of its own? I'm familiar with saying "Dutch" for "German" -- it's the comedy genre that is new to me. I wonder if "It is to laugh," a saying we spent some time hunting down a few years back, has a similar source. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>> Searching on Weber and Fields immediately turns up that they were >>> a popular vaudeville comedy duo of the 1880s-on. This site says >>> of them: > ["Dutchman" details] I think we have to consider the possibility that the humour of that turn came from the "Dutchmen's" heavily-accented use of a rural southern idiom. > > > Searching on Weber and Fields immediately turns up that they were a > > > popular vaudeville comedy duo of the 1880s-on. This site says of them: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > its own? I'm familiar with saying "Dutch" for "German" -- it's the > comedy genre that is new to me. To me too, but see http://books.google.com/books?id=wVWIpgXra9QC&pg=PA5&dq=%22Dutchman+act%22-flying > I wonder if "It is to laugh," a saying we spent some time hunting down a > few years back, has a similar source. It's not from French "C'est pour rire"? Lots of hits on French pages with that phrase, but maybe it doesn't mean quite the same thing. -- Jerry Friedman >>>> >> Why is what I do causing you such teeth-gnashing trauma? >>>> >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >I think I read it as "it makes me ... No, never mind". Both versions mean "It makes no difference to me". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >Google found 289 instances of "it makes me no never mind". I was >surprised to see even that many, for Donna's use of the expression is >the first I've noticed. You can improve upon that score by going for the triple negative: 1100 for "it don't make me no never mind" (only 8 hits if you change "don't" to "doesn't")....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Chuck Riggs filted: >> Google found 289 instances of "it makes me no never mind". I was >> surprised to see even that many, for Donna's use of the expression is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 1100 for "it don't make me no never mind" (only 8 hits if you change > "don't" to "doesn't")....r Ah, that's the one I know -- the 1100-hit one. I used to be married to someone with roots in Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, and Missouri. SignatureSkitt (AmE) Latvian-rooted > Chuck Riggs filted: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You can improve upon that score by going for the triple negative: 1100 for "it > don't make me no never mind" ... 62 of which are for "it don't make me no never mind nohow" or "...no how". (YHCMV.) I suppose it would be ludicrously pedantic to suggest "...no never- mind". -- Jerry Friedman jerry_friedman@yahoo.com filted: >> Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I suppose it would be ludicrously pedantic to suggest "...no never- >mind". A running gag of sorts once developed on "The Carol Burnett Show" in response either to a partially-rewritten line of dialogue or an actor's fumble...for a time, every installment of the soap opera parody "The Edge of Wetness" included someone musing "what matter does it make?"...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >> Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I suppose it would be ludicrously pedantic to suggest "...no never- >mind". Doing the "ludicrously pedantic" is within the AUE repertoire, although, thank the Great Sheep God, only part of it. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Is anyone else reminded of "ricland", who passed by here some months ago? Now you come to mention it, yes, but until you mentioned it, no. I'm happy to say that I'd forgotten all about ricland until you reminded us. Signatureathel >> [...] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Now you come to mention it, yes, but until you mentioned it, no. I'm > happy to say that I'd forgotten all about ricland until you reminded us. Well, I'm back -- chewing bubble gum and kicking a.s, and I'm fresh out of bubble gum. ricland > [...] >>>>>>> I do wonder why you come to this group for advice when you seem [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> > You wish. Why not answer the question? And be the cause of you having another apoplectic fit? I say, nay, sir! EG [...]>> >> For what it's worth, when ordinary people read my excerpts they >> absolutely never comment on the hair-splitting I get in writing and >> usage groups. That's because they're not in a writing or usage group, of course... > I don't know if I'm dismayed or flattered to be among the > non-ordinary. I only know that I wish I had a hair to split. Try the 'tache, Tony. (I wonder if those blokes with absurd handlebars get split ends?) > I do wonder why you come to this group for advice when you seem to > know that the advice that will be forthcoming is not what you want to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Or even at all. Well, that, too. But the answer is that e should write the best she can, whatever the audience. That will include a sensible degree of historical accuracy: I say "sensible" because over-authenticity can rapidly become a pain in the arse, even without promiscuous gadzookery. Complete authenticity is, of course, pretty well impossible even if the characters are supposed to be speaking one's own language. SignatureMike. On Jan 8, 1:21 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Well, that, too. But the answer is that e should write the best she can, > whatever the audience. That will include a sensible degree of historical > accuracy: I say "sensible" because over-authenticity can rapidly become > a pain in the arse, even without promiscuous gadzookery. Best. Name. For a rock band. This week. "Promiscuous Gadzookery" The problem, of course, these days, is much bleepier than that. Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- Scientists have proved that most people are in the majority. > On Jan 8, 1:21 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > The problem, of course, these days, is much bleepier than that. So what do you reckon should be the name of the lead singer? ...Peregrine Porksword, perhaps? The drummer could be Lancelot Shagpiler. SignatureMike. Mike Lyle filted: >> On Jan 8, 1:21 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >...Peregrine Porksword, perhaps? The drummer could be Lancelot >Shagpiler. The lists of names for rock bands that have never existed are all over the web (vide the "Rocklopedia Fakebandica" site), but I'm especially fond of this (actual) album title by parody band Power Salad: http://cdbaby.com/cd/powersalad2 ....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Mike Lyle filted: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > http://cdbaby.com/cd/powersalad2 Random comments: "I'll put some cinnamon in it in a minute." "What's a synonym for cinnamon?" "Old Mother Hubbard stumbled out of her bed." * Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- [*] I have *two* live recordings of Nickel Creek doing "The Fox" and in neither one does he get that line out anywhere close to ungarbled... JimboCat filted: >> The lists of names for rock bands that have never existed are all over th= >e web [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >"What's a synonym for cinnamon?" >"Old Mother Hubbard stumbled out of her bed." * "Jiggle it a little; it'll open." ....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > JimboCat filted: >>> The lists of names for rock bands that have never existed are all over th= [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > "Jiggle it a little; it'll open." "A little old lady got mutilated late last night." - Warren Zevon SignatureLew On Jan 8, 7:21 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > [...]>> > >> For what it's worth, when ordinary people read my excerpts they [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > authenticity is, of course, pretty well impossible even if the > characters are supposed to be speaking one's own language. I'm saving 'promiscuous gadzookery' to use when I'm next outraged in a serious meeting at work and can't think of what to insult someone with. Thanks, Mike! cheers, S in B > For what it's worth, when ordinary people read my excerpts they > absolutely never comment on the hair-splitting I get in writing and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The problem this poses for me is whether I should write for them or the > critics. Perhaps ordinary people are idiots (checks bestseller lists) yep: that's it! If you want money, write for idiots. If you want lasting fame that resounds through the ages . . . uh, I don't really have a plan for that after all. Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- Sarcasm is my sword, Apathy is my shield. > They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken by > 18th century Brits. That would irritate me as much as having a cowboy speaking Bertie Wooster English. There is a problem with period pieces: medieval settings larded with "prithee" and such can be equally annoying, but I really dislike forms of English that don't fit the characters in any way, so if they are British, I think they should speak at least some form of British English unless you have made it clear that it is a joke. SignatureRob Bannister >> They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken by >> 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > way, so if they are British, I think they should speak at least some > form of British English unless you have made it clear that it is a joke. I honestly see no reason to do this. My field tests with yank readers are over. EG >>> They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken by >>> 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I honestly see no reason to do this. My field tests with yank readers > are over. How does it go?.."I'm determined, you're stubborn, and he's pig-headed"? Your agent will honestly see good reason to accommodate the feelings of a large number of potential readers. But I keep forgetting you haven't actually come to us for advice... SignatureMike. On 09 Jan 2009, Mike Lyle wrote >>>> They absolutely never have a problem with American English >>>> spoken by 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > But I keep forgetting you haven't actually come to us for > advice... And I'd be amazed if this person has an agent (or if he/she does, that the agent would bother hanging around for very long -- life's much too short, 'n' all that). SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 09 Jan 2009, Mike Lyle wrote > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > that the agent would bother hanging around for very long -- life's > much too short, 'n' all that). Hmm... That's odd. I've searched all around and haven't been able to find your bibliography. EG > Hmm... > > That's odd. > > I've searched all around and haven't been able to find your bibliography. There's no direct connection between the ability to write well and the ability to be published. I am proof of this. SignatureSML On 09 Jan 2009, Sara Lorimer wrote >> Hmm... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > There's no direct connection between the ability to write well > and the ability to be published. I am proof of this. You're undoubtedly being overly modest; I don't believe for one minute that the OP has had this sort of crud accepted by a commercial publisher. (Not to mention that some of us get paid for applying our writing skills in fields other than quarter-baked, wannabe-historical fiction that's doomed to be self-published on the Internet.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 09 Jan 2009, Sara Lorimer wrote > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > skills in fields other than quarter-baked, wannabe-historical fiction > that's doomed to be self-published on the Internet.) Right. I think what HVS is saying is that he's not published but if he wanted to be published agents would be queued up in front of his flat with contracts, pens, and bonus checks. Is that it, HVS? EG >>>> They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken by >>>> 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > But I keep forgetting you haven't actually come to us for advice... There's a point somewhere in that. I just can't helping wondering if it's your head. EG >>> They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken by >>> 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I honestly see no reason to do this. My field tests with yank readers >are over. Right. That's why I suggested somewhere back down the line that you're unlikely to appeal to British readers. If your intended readership is solely a particular segment of the US, that's absolutely spiffing, old chap, except that I can't help wondering (as have others) why you're asking us. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>> They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken by >>>> 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >spiffing, old chap, except that I can't help wondering (as have >others) why you're asking us. It should be noted that he said that no Yanks offered objections, but didn't say if any Yanks offered enthusiastic approval. I suspect the Yanks subjected to field tests were too stunned to even reply at all. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>> They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken by >>>>> 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > didn't say if any Yanks offered enthusiastic approval. I suspect the > Yanks subjected to field tests were too stunned to even reply at all. Stunned at what, Tony? Let's you and I sort this out. EG >>>>>> They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken by >>>>>> 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Stunned at what, Tony? You wouldn't expect witnesses to a train wreck to be able to tell you the color of the boxcars. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>> They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken by >>>>>>> 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > You wouldn't expect witnesses to a train wreck to be able to tell you > the color of the boxcars. Let me ask you something, Tony: when you finish writing material like the above, look at it, and it doesn't make you laugh--why do you think it will make us laugh? EG >> You wouldn't expect witnesses to a train wreck to be able to tell you >> the color of the boxcars. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > when you finish writing material like the above, look at it, and it > doesn't make you laugh--why do you think it will make us laugh? It made me laugh. Genuine LoL moments are rare, but that was one. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>>> They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken by >>>> 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > spiffing, old chap, except that I can't help wondering (as have > others) why you're asking us. Not to put too fine a point on it, Wood, but I haven't asked you anything. EG >>>>> They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken >>>>> by 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Not to put too fine a point on it, Wood, but I haven't asked you anything. Yes you have. You posted your writing here and asked about it. Msh Avensh is as entitled to comment on what you've done as all the thousands of other regulars here who have jumped in to praise your work to the rafters. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>>>>> They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken >>>>>> by 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >thousands of other regulars here who have jumped in to praise your work >to the rafters. The rafters? Oh, I see. The "thousands of other regulars" have been standing on the river bank singing the praises of the work to those floating past on rafts. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>>> They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken >>>>>>> by 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Oh, I see. The "thousands of other regulars" have been standing on the river > bank singing the praises of the work to those floating past on rafts. to the ceiling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafter EG >> On Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:36:31 +0000, Nick >> <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > to the ceiling > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafter Golly. SignatureDavid >>> On Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:36:31 +0000, Nick >>> <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Golly. Gosh. For a writer with an artistic license elanders seems to be not very good at recognising a bit of jocularity. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> On Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:36:31 +0000, Nick >>>> <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > For a writer with an artistic license elanders seems to be not very good at > recognising a bit of jocularity. It was so poorly done I thought it kinder to pretend its author was trying to be serious. EG [ ... ] > > For a writer with an artistic license elanders seems to be not very good at > > recognising a bit of jocularity. > > > It was so poorly done I thought it kinder to pretend its author was > trying to be serious. We're been extending you the same courtesy. > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > We're been extending you the same courtesy. Oh, the crossword puzzle man. Hahahahaha ... EG >>Yes you have. You posted your writing here and asked about it. Msh >>Avensh is as entitled to comment on what you've done as all the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Oh, I see. The "thousands of other regulars" have been standing on the river > bank singing the praises of the work to those floating past on rafts. No, they jumped in the river to do it, as I made quite clear. Please try to read more carefully. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>>Yes you have. You posted your writing here and asked about it. Msh >>>Avensh is as entitled to comment on what you've done as all the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >No, they jumped in the river to do it, as I made quite clear. Please >try to read more carefully. I will humbly obey. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>> They absolutely never have a problem with American English spoken >>>>>> by 18th century Brits. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > thousands of other regulars here who have jumped in to praise your work > to the rafters. No--his envelope will be flung back in his face unopened. EG >> > "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess Albertina >> > ... and this one, Princess Charlotte." [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >this is some completely modern, informal setting. We haven't got an era >yet, have we? I hope not. Whatever the formality of the setting, referring to someone as "this one" is rude, uncouth and uncalled for, IMO. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess Albertina >>>> ... and this one, Princess Charlotte." [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I hope not. Whatever the formality of the setting, referring to > someone as "this one" is rude, uncouth and uncalled for, IMO. Rude and uncouth, no less. I'm curious. How many blood vessels did you pop when you read it? EG >>>> Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >>>> ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >I repeat: what's No. 3? You said that there were three cases but only >mentioned two. I understood elanders use of "three ellipses" to mean the three dots forming the ellipsis symbol, rather than three examples of the use of the symbol. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >>> ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > "And these are my sisters," said the Duke. "This is Princess Albertina > ... and this one, Princess Charlotte." These all work for me with the exception of "hoped for ... the other". I would have expected a full stop or semicolon or, at very least, a dash. SignatureRob Bannister >>>> Rebecca Elliot, Ph.D.'s "Painless Grammar" gives a usage for three >>>> ellipses not found in other texts I've consulted: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > These all work for me with the exception of "hoped for ... the other". I > would have expected a full stop or semicolon or, at very least, a dash. Right. I've since made the fix as well as other fixes that rid of the ellipses. EG |
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