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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009synecdoche?
My daughter's school newsletter contains the following item: "Sandwiches. "If your child brings sandwiches, please ensure that there are no sweets in there." To my mind, this does not imply that children are going to school with sweets (AmEng candy) between slices of bread. I take "sandwiches" to mean "packed lunch". Would you agree with me? Adrian >My daughter's school newsletter contains the following item: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Adrian Yes.  SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > My daughter's school newsletter contains the following item: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Would you agree with me? I agree on the meaning of the sentence, but I think the mechanics are a little different. I read it more like "please ensure that there are no sweets in [the packed lunch implied by the sandwiches]" or "in there [with them]". I don't think I've heard "packed lunch" before, though I have heard "pack a lunch". The noun phrase has been "box lunch" or "sack lunch", in my experience. I see the advantage of "packed" in not specifying the container (or the thing contained), though. -- Jerry Friedman On Jan 9, 3:57 pm, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote: > I don't think I've heard "packed lunch" before, though I have heard > "pack a lunch". The noun phrase has been "box lunch" or "sack lunch", > in my experience. I see the advantage of "packed" in not specifying > the container (or the thing contained), though. I think I've heard "packed lunch," and now that I look at Google Books, it compares favorably: 614 on "pack lunch" 818 on "packed lunch" 946 on "box lunch" 616 on "boxed lunch" 703 on "sack lunch" 24 on "sacked lunch" [never heard this one, and sounds rough-) Marius Hancu > On Jan 9, 3:57 pm, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" > <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Marius Hancu For me, "packed lunch" is the normal expression. I can't remember ever meeting any of the others on this side of the pond. SignatureLes (BrE) > > I think I've heard "packed lunch," and now that I look at Google > > Books, it compares favorably: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > 703 on "sack lunch" > > 24 on "sacked lunch" [never heard this one, and sounds rough-) > For me, "packed lunch" is the normal expression. I can't remember ever > meeting any of the others on this side of the pond. A "box lunch" is not something that you typically bring from home, but one that is provided by someone else. It's a common option here at work for meetings with visitors where they don't want to stop for lunch. The lunches are literally in boxes, and are prepared by the cafeteria folk. The lunches generally have sandwiches or wraps, bag of chips (crisps), cookie (biscuit), small side salad, perhaps fruit. A home-packed lunch would probably be a "bag lunch" around here in "bag" country. The cumpnee often tries to promote "brown-bag seminars", where employees bring lunch to some sort of talk. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) Default User filted: >A "box lunch" is not something that you typically bring from home, but >one that is provided by someone else. It's a common option here at work >for meetings with visitors where they don't want to stop for lunch. The >lunches are literally in boxes, and are prepared by the cafeteria folk. >The lunches generally have sandwiches or wraps, bag of chips (crisps), >cookie (biscuit), small side salad, perhaps fruit. Every time someone mentions "box lunch", I can't but be reminded of the following exchange, which I post here from the web page I found it on for cut-and-pasting purposes (because I wanted to make sure I had the wording right): M) Yes the King's Ball is coming off tonight. A) The King's Ball is coming off tonight? R) I didn't know the King's Ball was coming off tonight! M) Yes, but unfortunately I won't be able to take A. R) Oh? Where will you be? M) The Queen's box. A) The Queen's box? M) Yes, and after the King's Ball comes off, we're eating dinner in the Queen's box. A) Dinner in the Queen's box? M) Well not dinner exactly. It's more like a box lunch. A) Do you mean there will be more than just you in the Queen's box? M) Of course, I'll be there, and the King and his court. A) The Queen must have a big box! M) The biggest in the kingdom! R) I hate to ask this next question. But, where is the King's Ball being held? M) In the ballroom. R) You ask a silly question, you get a silly answer! The web page in question asks readers if they can identify the movie, and I extend the same challenge....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Default User filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >The web page in question asks readers if they can identify the movie, and I >extend the same challenge....r Was Danny Kaye in it? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >Default User filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >The web page in question asks readers if they can identify the movie, and I >extend the same challenge....r I have no idea. This is a true story. In City Hall, Belfast, Northern Ireland, one of the relatively lowly officials is the Sergeant-at-Mace. He carries the ceremonial mace during Lord Mayoral processions. As the mace-bearing is not a full-time activity the S-at-M spends most of his time on other duties including acting as a tour guide in the City Hall[1]. One particular S-at-M had a well-developed line of tour guiding patter which included: S-at-M, leading the party into a large space possibly the Great Hall: This is where the Lord Mayor holds his Balls. The Lord Mayor holds his Balls here twice each year. Tourists who saw the double meaning would smile. All was well until one day the tourists included a group of young American schoolgirls. They certainly understood the double meaning and had a good giggle. The woman who was in charge of them did not understand why they were giggling. Latter they explained to her what had amused them. She, a nun, was definitely not amused. A formal complaint was made and the S-at-M was demoted and sent to sweep the floors at St George's Market[2] owned by the City Council. He was unhappy at his demotion but was immensely cheered up some months later when his successor was sacked (fired) for being found drunk having "sampled" the contents of the Lord Mayor's drinks cabinet while on security duty one night. I know this not just from reading it in the local newspapers but from speaking to the man himself. It's at least ten years since I last saw him and cannot recall his name. [1] This Wikipedia article about Belfast City Hall seems accurate enough: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfast_City_Hall [2] George's Market, Belfast: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/735581 SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Leslie Danks filted: >Marius Hancu wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >For me, "packed lunch" is the normal expression. I can't remember ever >meeting any of the others on this side of the pond. I'd go further...WIWAL, nobody said "brings sandwiches" or "brings a box/sack lunch", and a "packed lunch" suggests only that whatever container is used it stuffed near to bursting...the original conditional would have been "brings lunch", "packs lunch" or "carries lunch", with "buys lunch" as the unspoken alternative.... For most of my life, sandwiches (pre-made or otherwise) have had little or nothing to do with what I bring for lunch...I guess Adrian's initial notice is not meant to apply to children who bring an o-bento....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Leslie Danks filted: > > For me, "packed lunch" is the normal expression. I can't remember > > ever meeting any of the others on this side of the pond. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > conditional would have been "brings lunch", "packs lunch" or "carries > lunch", with "buys lunch" as the unspoken alternative.... That's usually the sort of thing that I say. A response to, "Do you want to go to the cafeteria?" Would be something like, "No, I brought a lunch." > For most of my life, sandwiches (pre-made or otherwise) have had > little or nothing to do with what I bring for lunch I got tired of sandwiches, and now I purposely a bit extra for dinner and store portions of them in containers from bringing in. I have a small refrigerator in my cubicle, so that helps. The Fascists from building maintenance sent out an email saying that refrigerators were fire hazards and banned. Many were scared and removed theirs, but I have remained resolute. There's been no further word from them for almost a year. It's been my experience that it's easy send out dire warnings and instructions, but much harder to go around and enforce such edicts. If they do escalate, I have data to show that the power draw is similar to a PC. I won't give in to maintenance weenies without a fight. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) > The Fascists from building maintenance sent out an email saying that > refrigerators were fire hazards and banned. Many were scared and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > they do escalate, I have data to show that the power draw is similar to > a PC. I won't give in to maintenance weenies without a fight. You are Dilbert, AICMFP. (If you are not Dilbert, then you are Wally... Better to be Dilbert, I think). -- WH > Leslie Danks filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > notice is > not meant to apply to children who bring an o-bento....r Serves me right for not checking the pondiality of "packed lunch". :-) Putting that to one side, it appears that native speakers agree that the item is an example of synecdoche, and that non-native speakers are mostly bamboozled by it. I'd never heard of o bento, but it looks lovely. Adrian [sweets in "sandwiches"] > Putting that to one side, it appears that native speakers agree that the > item is an example of synecdoche, and that non-native speakers are mostly > bamboozled by it. ... Not to get into the controversy of authorial intention, but I'm not sure that I see it as intentional enough to call it a figure of speech of any kind, or that the confusion in the author's mind was exactly the part for the whole. -- Jerry Friedman > I'd never heard of o bento, but it looks lovely. Neither had I - isn't it amazing. But, as the one who does prepare sandwiches for two smalls each morning, I wonder how on earth they survive being put into a bag, bounced along over the shoulder, dropped, dragged through hedges etc. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > On Jan 9, 3:57 pm, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" > <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > 703 on "sack lunch" > 24 on "sacked lunch" [never heard this one, and sounds rough-) 651,000 pages for "bag lunch". And if you switch the focus to the container: 822,000 pages for "lunch bag" 1,020,000 pages for lunchbag. 2,510,000 pages for lunchbox. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> My daughter's school newsletter contains the following item: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >> Would you agree with me? I'm sure it's synechdoche. If you ask me "do you eat in the canteen at work" I'd almost certainly reply "no, I bring sandwiches" although that's not all I bring - there's usually some fruit there as well - and sometimes I'll bring something else entirely - some left over stuff to heat in a microwave for example. But it's poor writing - but I'm not that surprised by it. > I agree on the meaning of the sentence, but I think the mechanics are > a little different. I read it more like "please ensure that there are > no sweets in [the packed lunch implied by the sandwiches]" or "in > there [with them]". Agreed. > I don't think I've heard "packed lunch" before, though I have heard > "pack a lunch". The noun phrase has been "box lunch" or "sack lunch", > in my experience. I see the advantage of "packed" in not specifying > the container (or the thing contained), though. Absolutely standard BrE. None of "pack lunch", "box lunch" or "sack lunch" are heard over here. "Brown bag lunch" is, but only in 10 year out of date managementese. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes: > > I don't think I've heard "packed lunch" before, though I have heard [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Absolutely standard BrE. Indeed. H2G2 agrees with you - and that's good enough for me. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A846678 > None of "pack lunch", "box lunch" or "sack > lunch" are heard over here. Though "lunch box" is sometimes heard. > "Brown bag lunch" is, but only in 10 year > out of date managementese. It came, and went. The only time I've heard it recently was from an American, who then had to explain it to several baffled listeners. -- WH >> None of "pack lunch", "box lunch" or "sack >> lunch" are heard over here. > > Though "lunch box" is sometimes heard. Usually from me shouting "has anyone seen my lunch box". But in that context there is no food in it. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >On 9 Jan, 21:31, Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote: >> "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes: >> > I don't think I've heard "packed lunch" before, though I have heard >> > "pack a lunch". The noun phrase has been "box lunch" or "sack lunch", [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Indeed. H2G2 agrees with you - and that's good enough for me. >http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A846678 That text is not, however, entirely beyond reproach: "it's important to make sure that if you're taking more than one sandwich, neither are the same " Unless that's a deliberate joke, of course. I'm not familiar with the habits of the site. SignaturePaul >>On 9 Jan, 21:31, Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote: >>> "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Unless that's a deliberate joke, of course. I'm not familiar with the >habits of the site. Like Wikipedia, H2G2 is written by anyone. Habits may vary. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > My daughter's school newsletter contains the following item: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Adrian I fail to understand the meaning of this directive. Is it that _only_ with sandwiches sweets are not allowed? Or is it that you should check between the two slices of bread to make sure that there are no candies hidden there? > To my mind, this does not imply that children are going to school with > sweets (AmEng candy) between slices of bread. I take "sandwiches" to mean > "packed lunch". > > Would you agree with me? Not if I were the child in question. I'd make sure my mom sent me to school with a pie or a pasty and a big pile of sweets to dole out to all those poor kids with sandwiches. ¬R > My daughter's school newsletter contains the following item: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Would you agree with me? Yes, I would. But from a nephew's school--sorry, "place of learning"--comes the door-notice and the circular to parents warning that the the p.o.l. will be closed on such a date because of the "bi-election". My sister wants to know why they get a separate election from gays, Lesbians, and straights. Are they, I thought, under EU rules allowed an option the rest of us can't have--a box for "undecided"? SignatureMike. >> My daughter's school newsletter contains the following item: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > from gays, Lesbians, and straights. Are they, I thought, under EU rules > allowed an option the rest of us can't have--a box for "undecided"? Lovely. My friend's granddaughter explained that she was not going to school last Monday as it was an insect day. I know enough about schools to know that she meant an inset day but I have never understood why such days are so called. Inset in what? Or is it perhaps InseT, standing for "in service training"? (Service seems a strange concept for places of learning.) They were known as Baker days when our children were at school, after Kenneth who introduced them: when did this change? I have been summoned to a "programme design intensive". You can imagine how keen I am to attend. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> My daughter's school newsletter contains the following item: >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > are so called. Inset in what? Or is it perhaps InseT, standing for "in > service training"? Yep. Acronym, innit, INSET. > (Service seems a strange concept for places of > learning.) They were known as Baker days when our children were at > school, after Kenneth who introduced them: when did this change? Many quarterings ago. It's the teachers who are in service - I suppose it means "on the job". Ooh, er, missus. > I have been summoned to a "programme design intensive". You can imagine > how keen I am to attend. An intensive? I wonder if it's a laid-back intensive. SignatureDavid >>>> My daughter's school newsletter contains the following item: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Many quarterings ago. Nice! > It's the teachers who are in service - I suppose it means "on the job". > Ooh, er, missus. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > An intensive? I wonder if it's a laid-back intensive. I doubt it, given the "facilitators" involved. The very thought of it makes me shudder. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> My daughter's school newsletter contains the following item: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >from gays, Lesbians, and straights. Are they, I thought, under EU rules >allowed an option the rest of us can't have--a box for "undecided"? Wouldn't they be allowed to mark two boxes? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Mike Lyle: > Yes, I would. But from a nephew's school--sorry, "place of > learning"--comes the door-notice and the circular to parents warning > that the the p.o.l. will be closed on such a date because of the > "bi-election". My sister wants to know why they get a separate election > from gays, Lesbians, and straights. ... Maybe it's not that, but an election for two positions at once -- the first step of a creeping Americanization of your electoral system. SignatureMark Brader | "In the USA politicians run for office. In Britain they Toronto | stand for office. Of course... once elected... [they] msb@vex.net | neither run nor stand, they lie." --John Cletheroe >Yes, I would. But from a nephew's school--sorry, "place of >learning"--comes the door-notice and the circular to parents warning >that the the p.o.l. will be closed on such a date because of the >"bi-election". My sister wants to know why they get a separate election >from gays, Lesbians, and straights. Are they, I thought, under EU rules >allowed an option the rest of us can't have--a box for "undecided"? Nah, we don't see a need to decide. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness |
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