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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009Walking into Deeper Water without a Paddle
"You're just walking into deeper water, fella, and without a paddle." -- Robert Lieblich ---> Walking into deeper water ... without a paddle...? Can't you get anything right, Robert? Why would a paddle help a person walking into deeper water? Is he going to use it as a flotation device? You butchered the saying, you dolt. It's "up the creek without a paddle." If you can't improve on thing, Robert, leave it alone. EG > It's "up the creek without a paddle." In power stations (and probably other BrE places of work) this became, at least 20 years ago: "Up sh.t creek without a paddle". Excellent imagery, if you think about it. Is this expression also current in AmE and AusE? Richard Chambers Leeds UK. >> It's "up the creek without a paddle." > > In power stations (and probably other BrE places of work) this became, at > least 20 years ago: "Up sh.t creek without a paddle". Excellent imagery, > if you think about it. Is this expression also current in AmE and AusE? I'm also familiar with "the proverbial one-armed man swimming in sh.t creek", but can't quote the proverb.  SignatureLes (BrE) >>> It's "up the creek without a paddle." >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I'm also familiar with "the proverbial one-armed man swimming in sh.t >creek", but can't quote the proverb. The same one who just goes through the motions? Undeterred? SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >> I'm also familiar with "the proverbial one-armed man swimming in sh.t >> creek", but can't quote the proverb. > > The same one who just goes through the motions? > > Undeterred? "One-armed man swimming" brings to mind this oldie: "As busy as a one-armed paperhanger." Then there are the stories about one-legged football players. A 91-year-old relative of mine (in Tennessee) told us about a one-legged football player he'd seen years ago. He said he saw him hopping -- very quickly -- with the ball while the opposing team just stared. No defense at all. I figured it was just a yarn, but Google has some mentions of one-legged football players. There must have been several over the years. SignatureMaria C. >>> I'm also familiar with "the proverbial one-armed man swimming in sh.t >>> creek", but can't quote the proverb. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I figured it was just a yarn, but Google has some mentions of one-legged > football players. There must have been several over the years. My parents once stayed in a hotel in Ireland at the same time as a convention of one-armed toxophilites. Disappointingly, they never saw any of them action. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 15 Jan 2009, LFS wrote >>>> I'm also familiar with "the proverbial one-armed man swimming >>>> in sh.t creek", but can't quote the proverb. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > a convention of one-armed toxophilites. Disappointingly, they > never saw any of them action. An audition for the role of Tarzan comes to mind. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >> "One-armed man swimming" brings to mind this oldie: "As busy as a >> one-armed paperhanger." [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > convention of one-armed toxophilites. Disappointingly, they never saw > any of them action. You've earned another arrow in your quiver for knowing the word "toxophilite." I had to look it up in the dictionary. ("The" dictionary is right. Only one seemed to have the word.) SignatureMaria C. > My parents once stayed in a hotel in Ireland at the same time as a > convention of one-armed toxophilites. Disappointingly, they never saw > any of them action. Speaking of one-limbed people, as we were, I'm wondering how people pronounce "one-legged." I use three syllables for the term. Others use two. For "one-armed" (or "one-limbed") I'd assume two syllables (which I use). And for "one-handed," etc., three syllables seem required. It's the "ded" factor at work. SignatureMaria C. >LFS wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >For "one-armed" (or "one-limbed") I'd assume two syllables (which I >use). And for "one-handed," etc., three syllables seem required. Yes to all the above. >It's the "ded" factor at work. Not convinced of any principle there. At littley school (can't spell that -- but it's the school that the littlies go to) we had a Sports Day with races such as Mummy-recognise-your-child-by-its-foot and a Sack Race (butt over, Clarence), and most especially the three-legged race which included an introduction to bondage and rhythmic hopping. Excitement aside, three-legged was definitely trisyllabic. I still exchange Christmas cards with the headmistress, fifty-six years after leaving. SignaturePaul Maria C wrote > Then there are the stories about one-legged football players. A > 91-year-old relative of mine (in Tennessee) told us about a one-legged > football player he'd seen years ago. He said he saw him hopping -- very > quickly -- with the ball while the opposing team just stared. No defense > at all. When my children were aged 10 and 12, or thereabouts, I used to take them every week to the local Sports Centre to do some trampolining. One of the best trampolinists there was an adult who had lost his entire left leg, which seemed (oddly) to make him all the better at his chosen sport. An extra leg contributes to extra moment of inertia (refer to your university Physics notes) and slows down the speed of rotation of an aerial somersault. This fellow could do double somersaults with ease, both forwards and backwards. With my two legs, I could almost do a single somersault, usually landing with some loss of dignity on my bottom, not on my feet. The loss of dignity did not stop me from trying, but I never improved beyond that stage. I suspect that natural talent also comes into the equation at some point, as well as my impediment of two normal legs. Richard Chambers Leeds UK. > When my children were aged 10 and 12, or thereabouts, I used to take them > every week to the local Sports Centre to do some trampolining. One of the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > suspect that natural talent also comes into the equation at some point, as > well as my impediment of two normal legs. See, there was the problem. You have more than the average number of legs. SignatureDavid >Maria C wrote > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >suspect that natural talent also comes into the equation at some point, as >well as my impediment of two normal legs. Well, sir. I might be able to help. If you'd like to lie down here, I'll just plug in this Black & Decker Scorpion Saw, and then I can solve your problem. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> It's "up the creek without a paddle." > >In power stations (and probably other BrE places of work) this became, at >least 20 years ago: "Up sh.t creek without a paddle". Excellent imagery, >if you think about it. Don't forget the added difficulty of being in a barbed-wire canoe. >Is this expression also current in AmE and AusE? The earliest example in the OED is American: 1937 J. DOS PASSOS U.S.A. I. 70 We're up sh.t creek now for fair. James >>> It's "up the creek without a paddle." >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The earliest example in the OED is American: > 1937 J. DOS PASSOS U.S.A. I. 70 We're up sh.t creek now for fair. As is the earliest on Google Books, only 69 years earlier: [Attn Jesse Sheidlower: OED antedating] He, Parker, then said, "well, our men put old Lincoln up sh.t creek, and we'll put old Dill up." Testimony of Augustus Lorins, 6/12/1868, _Annual Report of the Secretary of War_, 1868 The lack of paddle first seems to show up in 1911, with the creek name euphemized: "As for me," said Mr. Chester, "you might say I am up Salt Creek without a paddle." _NY Times_, 11/2/1911 Then we'll make formal, written demand upon him for eighteen thousand dollars; he won't have it where he can lay his hands on it, and he'll be up Salt Creek without a paddle. Peter Bernard Kyne, _Cappy Ricks_, 1918 Kyne also uses "up Salt Creek" in his 1918 _Valley of the Giants_ and 1919 _Captain Scraggs_. "Up Trouble Creek without a paddle" shows up in 1917, and "up the creek without a paddle" in 1919. I don't actually see "up sh.t creek without a paddle" until Rita Mae Brown's 1977 _Rubyfruit Jungle_. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |This case--and I must be careful 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |not to fall into Spooner's trap Palo Alto, CA 94304 |here--concerns a group of warring |bankers. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>> It's "up the creek without a paddle." >>> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > actually see "up sh.t creek without a paddle" until Rita Mae Brown's > 1977 _Rubyfruit Jungle_. I've always heard "up sh.t's creek." Anyone else heard that? SignatureMaria C. Resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of east Tennessee. >I've always heard "up sh.t's creek." Anyone else heard that? Sorta. "Up sh.t creek" is what I've heard. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>I've always heard "up sh.t's creek." Anyone else heard that? > >Sorta. "Up sh.t creek" is what I've heard. Here's another vote for "up sh.t creek" and often "without a paddle.'' Rob (Am. E., at assorted times in West Virginia, Maryland, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Illinois, Ohio, Massachusetts, and New York (upstate)) > I've always heard "up sh.t's creek." Anyone else heard that? I don't think so. It first shows up in Google Books in Donald Goines's 1973 _Kenyatta's Escape_. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It is error alone which needs the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |support of government. Truth can Palo Alto, CA 94304 |stand by itself. | Thomas Jefferson kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > I've always heard "up sh.t's creek." Anyone else heard that? > > I don't think so. It first shows up in Google Books in Donald > Goines's 1973 _Kenyatta's Escape_. I still remember -- I think from my college days -- "Up the proverbial polluted tributary sans [Hi, Daniel] adequate means of propulsion." I knew what it was a paraphrase of. SignatureBob Lieblich Up sh.t's creek without a song ... > I've always heard "up sh.t's creek." Anyone else heard that? Frequently, in addition to "up sh.t creek". I've wondered whether either of those should be capitalized. Google: "up sh.ts creek": 7,030 "up sh.t's creek": 9,660 "up sh.t creek": 74,400 -- Jerry Friedman Maria Conlon: > > I've always heard "up sh.t's creek." Anyone else heard that? Not me. Jerry Friedman: > Frequently, Huh. Where? > in addition to "up sh.t creek". That one I've heard, but I consider "up the creek" the normal form. I have no idea if this is a bowdlerization of the shitty form or if the latter is an intensification of the tame one. > Google: > > "up sh.ts creek": 7,030 > "up sh.t's creek": 9,660 > "up sh.t creek": 74,400 "up the creek" 474,000 "up sh.t creek" 74,400 "up sh.t's creek" 9,640 "up sh.ts creek" 7,030 "up the creek without a paddle" 68,300 "up sh.t creek without a paddle" 17,000 "up sh.t's creek without a paddle" 1,480 "up sh.ts creek without a paddle" 586 SignatureMark Brader | "This is just the result of someone sitting down before Toronto | a computer and carefully removing his head first. msb@vex.net | It's a phenomenon which is becoming more and more common." | -- Leonard Wibberley My text in this article is in the public domain. > Maria Conlon: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Huh. Where? I vaguely associate it with a former neighbor in Shaker Heights, Ohio, and even more vaguely with a college classmate who I think was from the New York metropolitan area. My other memories of it are less clear. > > in addition to "up sh.t creek". > > That one I've heard, but I consider "up the creek" the normal form. > I have no idea if this is a bowdlerization of the shitty form or if > the latter is an intensification of the tame one. ... I couldn't find any relevant hits before 1901 on "me up the creek", "you up the creek", etc., "am up the creek", or the equivalent with "is", "are", "was", "were", or "be", or "I'm up the creek", etc. That's a few decades after the "up sh.t creek" that Evan found. Of course I could have missed something. There are 272 hits for "up the creek" before 1901, if anyone's feeling ambitious. Most are for "went up the creek" and the like. -- Jerry Friedman jerry_friedman@yahoo.com filted: >... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >"up sh.t's creek": 9,660 >"up sh.t creek": 74,400 "up schist creek": 4,920 Piers Anthony used this phrase as the title of a short story that can be found in the collection "Anthonology"...the protagonist gets talked into putting on an impenetrable molecules-thick body suit with a trick release catch, and then finds he has to move his bowels.... What's remarkable is that a goodly number of the Google hits for the phrase have nothing to do with the story, and many appear to refer to actual places....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > >>> It's "up the creek without a paddle." > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > actually see "up sh.t creek without a paddle" until Rita Mae Brown's > 1977 _Rubyfruit Jungle_. Kind of an interesting book, I thought. If it matters, the first two hits I got for "up sh.t's creek without a paddle" are from 1968: /The Anatomy of Dirty Words/ by Edward Sagarin, and /Howard Street: A Novel/ by Nathan C. Heard (tagged with "African American Neighborhoods"). -- Jerry Friedman >> It's "up the creek without a paddle." > >In power stations (and probably other BrE places of work) this became, at >least 20 years ago: "Up sh.t creek without a paddle". Excellent imagery, >if you think about it. Is this expression also current in AmE and AusE? Yes. You can also add "in a barbed-wire canoe". SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >> It's "up the creek without a paddle." > > In power stations (and probably other BrE places of work) this became, at > least 20 years ago: "Up sh.t creek without a paddle". Excellent imagery, > if you think about it. Is this expression also current in AmE and AusE? I was particularly taken by a Private Eye cartoon of a few months ago that showed someone in just that situation being told "we've outsourced the paddle". SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > In power stations (and probably other BrE places of work) this became, at > least 20 years ago: "Up sh.t creek without a paddle". Excellent imagery, > if you think about it. Is this expression also current in AmE and AusE? Way more than 20 years ago, and the complete expression was "Up sh.t creek without a paddle and eating my way out." SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email > "You're just walking into deeper water, fella, and without a paddle." > -- Robert Lieblich [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > If you can't improve on thing, Robert, leave it alone. Fish sees bait. Fish hooks self on bait. Poor fish. This particular fish is up a creek without a clue. Your 15 minutes are up, Landers. >> "You're just walking into deeper water, fella, and without a paddle." >> -- Robert Lieblich [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Your 15 minutes are up, Landers. Yeah, well, you're doing an awful lot of fishing lately, Bob, because whenever you write a post it's piled with plenty of bait. EG SignatureRiclanders Dot Com http://riclanders.com/ |
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