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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009Do all the verbs agree with the subject here?
Hi all I’ve just started reading the Penguin Book of George Orwell Essays and I think I’ve got myself a bit confused. In each sentence below, I would have chosen the plural ‘have’ every time – though, possibly the last sentence I might have seen as having a single subject had Orwell not referred to ‘new group of writers’ in the plural the rest of the way through the paragraph. Have I got things really wrong here? The quotes are: “And not only the characters but the whole atmosphere of both the Gem and Magnet has been preserved…” (Boys’ Weeklies p80) “By a debasement of the Dickens technique a series of stereotyped ‘characters’ has been built up,…” (Boys’ Weeklies p82) “A new group of writers, Auden and Spencer and the rest of them, has made its appearance…” (inside the whale p117) Thanks > Hi all > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > “And not only the characters but the whole atmosphere of both the Gem > and Magnet has been preserved…” (Boys’ Weeklies p80) I too would use "have". > “By a debasement of the Dickens technique a series of stereotyped > ‘characters’ has been built up,…” (Boys’ Weeklies p82) Nothing wrong with "a series... has", especially since he could well be really talking about building up the series character by character, not building up each character. > “A new group of writers, Auden and Spencer and the rest of them, has > made its appearance…” (inside the whale p117) "A group" can be treated as either singular or plural. I think you're right to imply that Orwell should have been consistent, unless there's some subtle distinction between a group making its appearance all together and later occurrences in which the group is seen as consisting of individuals, maybe doing different things. -- Jerry Friedman On Jan 17, 6:12 pm, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Hi all > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > -- > Jerry Friedman Thank you Jerry - your comments have helped me understand subject agreement a bit more and I'm able to understand the points your making. Cheers > Thank you Jerry - your comments have helped me understand subject > agreement a bit more and I'm able to understand the points your making. > Cheers you're > > Thank you Jerry - your comments have helped me understand subject > > agreement a bit more and I'm able to understand the points your making. > > Cheers > > you're Oops! Obliged. miseri wrote: >> I’ve just started reading the Penguin Book of George Orwell Essays and >> I think I’ve got myself a bit confused. In each sentence below, I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I too would use "have". That would require "atmospheres".  SignatureLew >Hi all > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >And not only the characters but the whole atmosphere of both the Gem >and Magnet has been preserved (Boys Weeklies p80) It seems illogical to speak of "atmosphere" in singular, and emphasize "both" of two different things, which implies that the two don't necessarily have exactly the same atmosphere. Why "the" Gem, and no article for Magnet? Maybe the subject matter would explain it all. >By a debasement of the Dickens technique a series of stereotyped >characters has been built up, (Boys Weeklies p82) > >A new group of writers, Auden and Spencer and the rest of them, has >made its appearance (inside the whale p117) SignatureJohn >> Hi all >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > necessarily have exactly the same atmosphere. Why "the" Gem, and no > article for Magnet? Maybe the subject matter would explain it all. The Gen and Magnet are grouped here. Together, as a set, they create the atmosphere in question. The atmosphere is singular and takes "has." >> “By a debasement of the Dickens technique a series of stereotyped >> ‘characters’ has been built up,…” (Boys’ Weeklies p82) >> >> “A new group of writers, Auden and Spencer and the rest of them, has >> made its appearance…” (inside the whale p117) Nothing wrong with either of these. The series and the group are both singular, regardless of what the Brits might say. A group of writers showing up inside a whale is unusual, but that doesn't bear on the grammar. --Jeff SignatureA time will come when a politician who has wilfully made war and promoted international dissension will be as sure of the dock and much surer of the noose than a private homicide. It is not reasonable that those who gamble with men's lives should not stake their own. -H.G. Wells >>> “By a debasement of the Dickens technique a series of stereotyped >>> ‘characters’ has been built up,…” (Boys’ Weeklies p82) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > showing up inside a whale is unusual, but that doesn't bear on the > grammar. Even we Brits - and I'm an unrepentant user of "the Government are" and "my football team are" - are every bit, if not more, likely to say "a series has been built up" and "a new group has made its appearance". The extra words only seems to make it more likely to me in some strange way. Orwell was - of course - one of us, although (just as of course) language has changed since his time. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > Hi all > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Have I got things really wrong here? Yea, because you're not identifying the subject. > The quotes are: > > “And not only the characters but the whole atmosphere of both the Gem > and Magnet has been preserved…” (Boys’ Weeklies p80) the subject is "atmosphere." > “By a debasement of the Dickens technique a series of stereotyped > ‘characters’ has been built up,…” (Boys’ Weeklies p82) the subject is "series" -- a collective noun > “A new group of writers, Auden and Spencer and the rest of them, has > made its appearance…” (inside the whale p117) the subject is "group" -- a collective noun eg > Thanks SignatureRiclanders Dot Com http://riclanders.com/ >> Hi all >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >> Thanks Orwell had it precisely right in each instance. Atmosphere is singular. series is used as one unit. You can talk about 10 world series or just one. In the case above only one is being talked about. Group is used as one unit. (groups would be plural) When the subject/noun is used a collection of items, it's being used as a single unit therefore the singular verb is required. SignatureRiclanders Dot Com http://riclanders.com/ > Orwell had it precisely right in each instance. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > When the subject/noun is used a collection of items, it's being used as > a single unit therefore the singular verb is required. You misunderstand. The rules of grammar (here the rule that subject and verb should agree in number) apply to grammatical terms, not to semantic concepts (one unit, you suggest.) Thus group is a singular noun (its plural being groups) and requires a singular verb. Series is specified in the source sentence as singular ("a series") thus requires a singular verb. The usual term for a "subject/noun is used a collection of items" is "collective noun," for which special grammatical rules may apply. (Thus collective nouns are usually treated in British English as singular nouns, by Americans as plural.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> Orwell had it precisely right in each instance. >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > apply. (Thus collective nouns are usually treated in British > English as singular nouns, by Americans as plural.) Wait a minute. They each take "has", which is what I said. That was the question the guy asked and however you got that, that was the question you should have answered. Point being, by saying I "misunderstand" throws my answer into question, and confuses him. As to my explanation, I don't pay attention to those things, I've got a million other things going on I'm writing about. EG SignatureRiclanders Dot Com http://riclanders.com/ In our last episode, <e213cf4c-8ec4-487d-b20a-4284ea8f8f7f@g39g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and talented miseri broadcast on alt.usage.english: > Hi all > I?ve just started reading the Penguin Book of George Orwell Essays and > I think I?ve got myself a bit confused. In each sentence below, I > would have chosen the plural ?have? every time ? though, possibly the > last sentence I might have seen as having a single subject had Orwell > not referred to ?new group of writers? in the plural the rest of the > way through the paragraph. > Have I got things really wrong here? > The quotes are: > ?And not only the characters but the whole atmosphere of both the Gem > and Magnet has been preserved?? (Boys? Weeklies p80) atmosphere has Okay, there is a reasonable argument here that 'not only ... but (also)' is the equivalent of "and." > ?By a debasement of the Dickens technique a series of stereotyped > ?characters? has been built up,?? (Boys? Weeklies p82) series has > ?A new group of writers, Auden and Spencer and the rest of them, has > made its appearance?? (inside the whale p117) group has SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> usenet@larseighner.com Bush's third term begins Jan. 20th with an invocation by Rick Warren. Obama: No hope; No change; More of the Same. |
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