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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009Curious usage of "wide berth"
The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like "latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, this would mean "avoid". To give someone a wide berth would be to stay out of their way. I suppose staying out of Obama's way would be to avoid opposing him, but it still doesn't sound like goodwill. Is this a common usage in AmE? WASHINGTON (AFP) — Barack Obama has attained extraordinarily high levels of public approval, according to opinion polls released Sunday, ahead of his historic inauguration ceremony as the first African- American president. A survey conducted by The New York Times and CBS News found a US public eager to give the president-elect a wide berth as he attempts to turn around a faltering US economy, tackle global warming, help solve the intractable Middle East peace process, along with a plethora of other mammoth challenges. TOF >The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like >"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, >this would mean "avoid". To give someone a wide berth would be to stay >out of their way. Yes, I would have expected "fair wind" rather than "wide berth". Regards Jonathan >>The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like >>"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, >>this would mean "avoid". To give someone a wide berth would be to stay >>out of their way. > > Yes, I would have expected "fair wind" rather than "wide berth". Yes, or even "plenty of leeway". >>>The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like >>>"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Yes, or even "plenty of leeway". Yes, that would be much better. I just checked the online OED out of curiosity. Despite the fact that it's dated 1989, it doesn't have "leeway" in that sense, only in the original sense of "lateral drift of a ship to leeward". There is no quotation more recent than 1884. That seems like a curious omission. COD 10 from 1999 has the technical term second, after the definition "the amount of freedom to move or act that is available", "margin of safety". James >>"Jonathan Morton" <jonathan@jonathanmortonbutignorethisbit.co.uk> wrote >>> "TOF" <Fran.Beta@gmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > "the amount of freedom to move or act that is available", "margin of > safety". [Attn Jesse Sheidlower: OED antedating] The figurative sense appears to go back at least to the middle of the nineteenth century. (Sorry for all the quotes; I was working backward and kept uncovering earlier ones.) ... while, as relates to what may yet be established, though now it is but experimental, or what may be discovered, of which now nobody dreams, the calculations in question have apparently left no leeway for the ingenuity of our successors, or even our contemporaries. _The Quarterly Review_, June/Oct, 1838 There is, after all the advantages from the powers of these boilers to resist intense pressure, a serious objection to their use; the flues occupy so large a space of the internal portion of them, that is difficult to keep over the flue a proper head of water, affording the engineer but little "leeway" in case of accident or want of care, a slight inclination of the boat, from the changing position of the passengers or freight, throwing a bare flue upon the highest side. _Journal of the Franklin Institute_, 1852 I was forced to the adoption of the rule: "Earn before you eat." I could have wished for a little leeway, but I had none. Richard B. Kimball, _Undercurrents of Wall Street_, 1862 Now, our figures have given nearly that size, and worked mathematically close, and giving a little leeway, our hive will hold about a bushel. _American Bee Journal_, 9/1870 Moreover, Mr. Hill avoids the common mistake of trying to bind all language by a hard an pact [sic] rule; speakers and writers are given a certain amount of leeway, and pedantry is as carefully shunned as slovenliness. _Atlantic Monthly_, 11/1878 "To any considerable value," left a wide leeway and margin, as a concession to the Indian's natural propensity. Sarah Loring Baily, _Historical Sketches of Andover_, 1880 When such time limit is kept, in the usual manenr, said limit shall be calculated by average at the close of each game, and a leeway of five minutes shall be allowed for possible mistakes in noting time on each game. _Brooklyn Chess Chronicle_, 12/15/1883 My own plan is to keep one or two or three thousand dollars leeway; not to expend the appropriation within two or three thousand dollars, if I can arrange it, so as to have money in the treasury to meet any unexpected demand which may call for additional labor or skill in doing the work. Massachusetts Board of Agriculture, 1884 In the great amount of rich land that is yet to be redeemed, and in the wide leeway that exists for improved and economical farming, we are able to clearly see a noble, a splendid future for Chicago. Julian Ralph, "The Capitals of the Northwest", _Harper's New Monthly Magazine_, March, 1892 The limited freedom accorded to some of the more responsible workers in no wise disturbed the grand unity of the design. Small variations in minor matters, more or less ornamentation, even the number and size of the inferior parts of the structures, equivalent in their amounts of strength and sustenqance given to the general mechanism, could afford to settle themselves, with some leeway left to individual choice. The Maker of the Universe has allowed an ample leeway to his intelligent workment; yet the vast design is becoming more and more apparent in its co-ordinated unity. Antoinette Brown Blackwell, _The Philosophy of Individuality_, 1893 ... the only reason we had for suggesting an increased size of wheel seat was to give a bigger leeway in refitting axles to new wheels. The existing standards only give 1/8 inch leeway, and it was the opinion of our committee that there ought to be 1/4 leeway between the original size ofthe wheel seat and the limiting size. Proceedings of the Western Railway Club, 1901 There also seems to another early figurative sense of "having leeway to make up" or "making up leeway", e.g. The University of Oxford has a long leeway to make up, and must put forth no common efforts to rescure herself from the disgrace of having spawned this fell apostasy--the most disreputable that has occurred since the days of her martyrs. _The British Protestant_, November, 1845  SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Marge: You liked Rashomon. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Homer: That's not how *I* remember Palo Alto, CA 94304 | it. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like >>"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, >>this would mean "avoid". To give someone a wide berth would be to stay >>out of their way. > > Yes, I would have expected "fair wind" rather than "wide berth". Or "a lot of leeway". >>The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like >>"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, >>this would mean "avoid". To give someone a wide berth would be to stay >>out of their way. > >Yes, I would have expected "fair wind" rather than "wide berth". "Wide berth" isn't bad, but an improvement, while remaining in the nautical vein, might be "they're willing to give him a lot of leeway". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like > "latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > solve the intractable Middle East peace process, along with a plethora > of other mammoth challenges. No, it is not common usage. The meaning in AmE is the same as in Oz. They don't make journalists the way they used to, that's all. SignatureSkitt, drawing from experiences in these places: http://www.geocities.com/opus731/places.html > > The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like > > "latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > No, it is not common usage. The meaning in AmE is the same as in Oz. They > don't make journalists the way they used to, that's all. Maybe the author thought it was too much trouble to look up the spelling of "free rein". -- Jerry Friedman > No, it is not common usage. The meaning in AmE is the same as in Oz. They > don't make journalists the way they used to, that's all. No kidding. Almost every day I find something wrong in The Washington Post, supposedly one of the top 3 or 4 newspapers in the country. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >> No, it is not common usage. The meaning in AmE is the same as in Oz. They >> don't make journalists the way they used to, that's all. > >No kidding. Almost every day I find something wrong in The >Washington Post, supposedly one of the top 3 or 4 newspapers in the >country. If that is all there are, and the errors are minor ones, I'd say the paper continues to excel. I read it almost daily and consider it and the New York Times to be the two best newspapers in the country. My other favourites, which I also read regularly, are the Irish Independent and The Economist, but I'm sure neither is error-free. Life doesn't work that way. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> No, it is not common usage. The meaning in AmE is the same as in Oz. >> They don't make journalists the way they used to, that's all. > > No kidding. Almost every day I find something wrong in The > Washington Post, supposedly one of the top 3 or 4 newspapers in the > country. What they don't make like they used to is editors -- to say nothing of compositors. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. TOF set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like > "latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Is this a common usage in AmE? It has that usage (avoidance) in BrE also, coming from the image of a ship loading or unloading a dangerous cargo where, for safety reasons, adjacent berths would be taken out of use so that ship would have a "wide berth" to itself. The two quoted paragraphs contradict each other in their impression of the public's opinion of Barak Obama. I can't really see what the expresion ought to be or why these words might have been used. Was the writer somehow unfamiliar with the significance of the expression to the extent of thinking it meant "a large degree of discretion"? Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply >The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like >"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Is this a common usage in AmE? No. It seems as wrong to me as it does to you. The writer was straining to make some allusion to the re-direction of the ship of state and his prose sprung a leak. >WASHINGTON (AFP) Barack Obama has attained extraordinarily high >levels of public approval, according to opinion polls released Sunday, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >TOF SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like >>"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > straining to make some allusion to the re-direction of the ship of > state and his prose sprung a leak. <applause> I wondered where he dredged the phrase up. >>> The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like >>> "latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I wondered where he dredged the phrase up. It was a titanic mistake. SignatureLew >>>The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like >>>"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I wondered where he dredged the phrase up. I find it to be a familiar phrase, meaning "give him some space" or "cut him some slack". The opposite of "keep him on a short leash". Fred [snip discussion of "A survey conducted by The New York Times and CBS News found a US public eager to give the president-elect a wide berth as he attempts to turn around a faltering US economy, tackle global warming..."] > I find it to be a familiar phrase, meaning "give him some space" or "cut him > some slack". > The opposite of "keep him on a short leash". That would be a recent shift in meaning, then, because the traditional meaning is "to stay away from, to avoid." Not just "give some space" for noble reasons but for one's own safety and well-being. Can you possibly point to examples of anyone using the phrase in the way you say -- if possible edited publications like newspapers, but mere Internet chat would do. So far what I've seen through Google is the usual sense, but I think the one you describe may well exist. One hint is this entry for a No Preview book at Google, which appears to deal with metaphors that change their meanings, which is what this would be: Loose Cannons, Red Herrings, and Other Lost Metaphors by Robert Claiborne - Language Arts & Disciplines - 2001 - 254 pages Page 111 If you found yourself in harbor with a suspicious-looking ship, you made sure to anchor well away from her -- give her a wide berth. Whence the wide berth we ... SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > [snip discussion of "A survey conducted by The New York Times and CBS > News found a US public eager to give the president-elect a wide berth as [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > to anchor well away from her -- give her a wide berth. > Whence the wide berth we ... Hi Donna, Mostly it's just from things I've heard people say , but I find a possible example at this site: http://news.muckety.com/2008/10/02/dannehy-given-wide-berth-in-investigation-of- us-attorney-firings/5382 Dannehy given wide berth in investigation of U.S. attorney firings Noreen Malone notes in Slate that, in her new role, Dannehy technically won't have the titles of "special prosecutor" or "independent counsel" because she comes from within the Department of Justice and ultimately reports to Mukasey. "However, the department has stated that she has the authority to go in any direction her investigation leads her." I take this to mean something like "cutting her some slack" and her not being on "a short leash". That may indicate that "a US public eager to give the president-elect freedom to act in whatever way he sees fit to turn the economy around.. etc.." Perhaps I'm reading something into that based on my own preconceived view of the expression. Thanks, ... Fred > >The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like > >"latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > straining to make some allusion to the re-direction of the ship of > state and his prose sprung a leak. Indeed, and although there's nothing particularly eccentric about "a plethora of other mammoth challenges", it's inelegant metaphor in my opinion. TOF > >WASHINGTON (AFP) — Barack Obama has attained extraordinarily high > >levels of public approval, according to opinion polls released Sunday, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -- > Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida TOF filted: >Indeed, and although there's nothing particularly eccentric about "a >plethora of other mammoth challenges", it's inelegant metaphor in my >opinion. Say, what *is* the non-metaphorical meaning of "plethora", anyway?...I'm in the habit of telling people it's Greek for "shitload"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > TOF filted: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Say, what *is* the non-metaphorical meaning of "plethora", anyway?...I'm in the > habit of telling people it's Greek for "shitload"....r Truly, thy cup runneth over ... ;-) It's used in medical settings for an excess of body fluids. From memory, the original Greek is about "fullness". I was more troubled by the use of "mammoth". Is the person saying the challenges are large or extinct? How do mammoths connect with ships and overfull blood vessels? OK ... I'm being facetious, but really ... could the journo not have said "and a great number of significant problems" and improved thereby? TOF >> TOF filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >said "and a great number of significant problems" and improved >thereby? He could have continued the nautical theme and said that Obama has a shipload of problems to navigate through. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > >> TOF filted: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > He could have continued the nautical theme and said that Obama has a > shipload of problems to navigate through. That kind of language would be too nautical for the WPs house style. He could get into a shipload of trouble for uttering it, especially if he's discussing the soon to be inaugurated head of the ship of state. It is possible to sail to close to the wind and end up deep sixed like Icarus. TOF TOF filted: >> He could have continued the nautical theme and said that Obama has a >> shipload of problems to navigate through. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >It is possible to sail to close to the wind and end up deep sixed like >Icarus. That's not a tack I'd recommend....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >> >> TOF filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >It is possible to sail to close to the wind and end up deep sixed like >Icarus. You can "deep six" an old anchor, for example, that no longer functions, but when a person or a god drowns at sea, I don't think you can call that being "deep sixed". He or she did go to Davy Jones' Locker, though. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> TOF filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >He could have continued the nautical theme and said that Obama has a >shipload of problems to navigate through. Too cute. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> TOF filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >challenges are large or extinct? How do mammoths connect with ships >and overfull blood vessels? That one hit me between the eyes, as well. Even the plebian "big" would have been a better choice. >OK ... I'm being facetious, but really ... could the journo not have >said "and a great number of significant problems" and improved >thereby? > >TOF SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >TOF filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Say, what *is* the non-metaphorical meaning of "plethora", anyway?...I'm in the >habit of telling people it's Greek for "shitload"....r That's because Plethora, or somebody, had a bunch of snakes for hair. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> TOF filted: >>> Indeed, and although there's nothing particularly eccentric about "a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That's because Plethora, or somebody, had a bunch of snakes for hair. Medusa, shirley? Talking of horrible sights, at the cinema yesterday we saw an advert warning about medicines purchased over the internet, which apparently can contain rat poison. It featured a man swallowing a pill and then pulling a rat out of his mouth, tail first. It was so shockingly far from the normal cinema advert that I thought for a moment that it might have been a spoof. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) [...] > Talking of horrible sights, at the cinema yesterday we saw an advert > warning about medicines purchased over the internet, which apparently > can contain rat poison. It featured a man swallowing a pill and then > pulling a rat out of his mouth, tail first. It was so shockingly far > from the normal cinema advert that I thought for a moment that it might > have been a spoof. Warfarin is a chemical originally developed as a rat poison and subsequently found to inhibit coagulation of the blood (clotting). This is also the mode of action, the rat dying from internal haemorrhage. Since then, it has been used in patients at risk of developing thromboses -- blood clots in the blood stream which may initiate a stroke. If you're on warfarin, you're on rat poison, regardless of whether you were prescribed it by your GP or bought it over the Internet. The advert is presumably part of a range war between "respectable" suppliers and those who send cut-price rat poison around the world in plain brown wrapping in response to on-line orders. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin> SignatureLes (BrE) > [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin> Ah, yes. "Rat's and mice will disappear, for it's d-CON that they fear. They'll be gone, Passed away. Ask for d-CON today." It really sounds as though the commercial were made for PETA. I live in a row-house, and we have the occasional December-to-February infestation of voles. When I advocate for d-CON, I don't use the jingle, because one time I did explain that the product kills the mice (and the mouse mothers, after grooming themselves, spread the poison on to their hair, and thus to other adult mice, in addition to their young through the milk). Some people will insist on live trapping. I don't know where they dispose of the poor mice. Out into the cold? Of course, others remove the mice live from the traps, and then mercifully drown them in the toilets. I have the d-CON liberally placed in my pantry, but haven't seen any sign of feasting. Maybe my neighbor stopped amassing cat-food in his pantry, which shares a mutual wall. Maybe I should get a cat and let that take care of my mouse problem. The added bonus from having a cat is the almost 100% prevention of spider webs. It is fun to watch a cat "crawl the walls" hunting baby spiders. Pat Durkin filted: >It really sounds as though the commercial were made for PETA. I live in >a row-house, and we have the occasional December-to-February infestation [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >remove the mice live from the traps, and then mercifully drown them in >the toilets. You give them to your friend's pet ball pythons, innit?...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Pat Durkin filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > You give them to your friend's pet ball pythons, innit?...r Oh, not likely. The advantage, I have found, is that the mice "go away". Maybe time travel? Anyway, no disposal is necessary. I wonder if they die in their little tunnels and subsequent mice using the same tunnels consume their flesh and also "go away" and die. I just recalled the chemical name for Warfarin*: coumadin. That is the name some users employ. I think Wis. Alumni Research Foundation found a gold mine. That product is very old, now, and still in common use. > > Pat Durkin filted: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >> trapping. I don't know where they dispose of the poor mice. Out > >> into the cold? Mice can live fine out in the cold. Or they might get caught by some animal, which may be a more constructive use than disappearing into the walls of your house. > >> Of course, others remove the mice live from the > >> traps, and then mercifully drown them in the toilets. Which is more cruel, trapping a mouse and flushing it down the toilet, or killing it with an anticoagulant? I'll have to get back to you on that. > > You give them to your friend's pet ball pythons, innit?...r > > Oh, not likely. Speaking in general, I think it's fairly likely. > The advantage, I have found, is that the mice "go > away". Maybe time travel? A story by Avram Davidson may be relevant here. Brian "Default User" will know what I mean. (But was the first man he killed named "Brian" or "Default"?) > Anyway, no disposal is necessary. I wonder > if they die in their little tunnels and subsequent mice using the same > tunnels consume their flesh and also "go away" and die. Mice can definitely be cannibals. > I just recalled the chemical name for Warfarin*: coumadin. That is the > name some users employ. According to <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin>, "coumadin" is a brand name. Warfarin is a derivative of coumarin with an R; WP doesn't give a trivial name for it other than "warfarin". I for one am inescapably reminded of David Brin's sf novel / Sundiver/! I like it! But some criticize it for overusing exclamation points in dialogue! > I think Wis. Alumni Research Foundation I didn't know that. > found a gold mine. That product is very old, now, and still in common use. I wonder whether they're still collecting on it. -- Jerry Friedman >> > Pat Durkin filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >animal, which may be a more constructive use than disappearing into >the walls of your house. Florida mice are spoiled, I guess. Come cold weather, and in come the mice. (The temperature has plummeted clear down to the mid-50s recently. That's fahrenheit.) Happens every year. I just spent $210 to have our dishwasher repaired. The mice made their home under the dishwasher and chewed through the tubes that provide the water and drain out the water. I would have put out tiny bowls of water had I known they were that thirsty. I also spent an additional $20 on material to put a new floor in the sink cabinet next to the dishwasher because I had to rip out the old floor due to water damage. Then there was the cost of the new blade for the circular saw to cut the new flooring, and the cost of the power screw driver I bought when I purchased the flooring material. (I didn't use the power screw driver on this project, but it was on sale and I wanted it. Hadn't been for the mice, I wouldn't have seen it.) I caught two mice in traps. Snapped the little bastard's necks, they did. No sympathy from me. How do I know that the mouse population was limited to two? One killed without mercy the first night, and the second executed the second night. No action on three subsequent nights, but - for all I know - there are more mice biding their time and hoping that I'll stop setting traps. The traps were baited with peanut butter. That may have been double jeopardy. The newspapers say that peanut butter may be contaminated with salmonella. If the mice are careless, they die instantly, but if they steal the bait without setting off the trap they may die of food poisoning. Oh, yeah...I put a deep gouge in a finger ripping out the sink floor. Staple got me. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida <snip> >Which is more cruel, trapping a mouse and flushing it down the toilet, >or killing it with an anticoagulant? I'll have to get back to you on >that. I'd take my chances on the sewers. <snip> SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > > You give them to your friend's pet ball pythons, innit?...r > > Oh, not likely. The advantage, I have found, is that the mice "go > away". Maybe time travel? Anyway, no disposal is necessary. I wonder > if they die in their little tunnels and subsequent mice using the same > tunnels consume their flesh and also "go away" and die. My sister-in-law's house had a mouse infestation so they set traps. They found a partly eaten mouse in one of the traps and formed the same theory as above. A couple of weeks later a three-foot black snake was discovered in the basement. You might want to rethink about that python. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email > [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin> I'd lose those scare quotes. The dosage needs careful and constant monitoring, and in some cases frequent adjustment: you'd be insane to buy it over the Internet and self-medicate. I think my mother has hers checked--in the hospital--every month. Of course, Warfarin may simply be used as an example in an ad targeted more widely at www drug sales. Under British conditions, of course, there's less often an incentive to buy prescription drugs unofficially: younger and older patients get them free of charge on the NHS, and proper prescribing and follow-up may be thought worth having for most of the rest. SignatureMike. Mike Lyle wrote, in <gl2q2k$nrb$1@news.motzarella.org> on Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:07:23 -0000: > > [...] > >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > buy it over the Internet and self-medicate. I think my mother has hers > checked--in the hospital--every month. I was on it for about six months following a minor pulmonary embolism event. For the first couple of months I had to go for a check every two weeks, then every month. Finally I was told just to use the low dose aspirin. > Of course, Warfarin may simply be used as an example in an ad targeted > more widely at www drug sales. Under British conditions, of course, > there's less often an incentive to buy prescription drugs unofficially: > younger and older patients get them free of charge on the NHS, and > proper prescribing and follow-up may be thought worth having for most of > the rest. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE [...] >> If you're on warfarin, you're on rat poison, regardless of whether >> you were prescribed it by your GP or bought it over the Internet. The [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I'd lose those scare quotes. AFAIK most of the drugs bought more cheaply over the Internet are identical to those acquired by the normal route (though I haven't checked and don't buy my drugs over the Internet). I believe the main difference is in the mark-up -- but maybe someone here knows better. > The dosage needs careful and constant > monitoring, and in some cases frequent adjustment: you'd be insane to > buy it over the Internet and self-medicate. I think my mother has hers > checked--in the hospital--every month. I have to take an anticoagulant, which is not actually warfarin but a related substance with the same mechanism of action. The health insurance body I belong to here in Austria has an arrangement with Merck, who supply the drug. Patients who will be on the stuff for the rest of their lives and who can convince their GP that they can cope, are provided (free of charge) with a device for monitoring themselves. It's not rocket science and it saves me having to visit my GP regularly to give a blood sample. > Of course, Warfarin may simply be used as an example in an ad targeted > more widely at www drug sales. I suspect you're rigt; as you say, anticoagulant drugs are not a very obvious choice for self-medication (though not as daft as treating yourself with cytotoxics). > Under British conditions, of course, > there's less often an incentive to buy prescription drugs unofficially: > younger and older patients get them free of charge on the NHS, and > proper prescribing and follow-up may be thought worth having for most of > the rest. In Austria, too, generic drugs are being pushed by the health insurance bodies and the government as a means of saving health costs. I'm not up-to-date on how far this is compulsory, but it's meeting with the usual resistance from some doctors and their representatives -- "Generic drugs are not the same!" (in other words "How will I get to dive in the Red Sea if XYZ Pharma stops organising its further training seminars down there?") SignatureLes (BrE) Wot, me cynical? >In Austria, too, generic drugs are being pushed by the health insurance >bodies and the government as a means of saving health costs. I'm not >up-to-date on how far this is compulsory, but it's meeting with the usual >resistance from some doctors and their representatives In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is written for the generic or for the brand name, unless the practitioner makes some mark on the script indicating that the brand-name drug is required. (Here, the mark is specified by law as the words "NO SUBSTITUTION".) This has the effect of defeating one of the ways drug companies have used to steer doctors into prescribing their expensive branded products, by supplying them with free prescription pads already made out for a particular drug. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > In article <49750517$0$21352$91cee...@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at>, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > branded products, by supplying them with free prescription pads > already made out for a particular drug. In Australia, pharmacists must *offer* a generic if available. TOF >>In Austria, too, generic drugs are being pushed by the health insurance >>bodies and the government as a means of saving health costs. I'm not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is >written for the generic or for the brand name, Is the law that they must dispense a generic if available or that they must *offer* a generic if available? It seems to me that the last time this came up for me, the pharmacist asked if I would accept a generic. This implies that a generic was available but he was not required to dispense it. > unless the practitioner >makes some mark on the script indicating that the brand-name drug is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >-GAWollman SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> [I wrote:] >>In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Is the law that they must dispense a generic if available or that they >must *offer* a generic if available? Like so many things, it appears to vary from state to state. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>> [I wrote:] >>> In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Like so many things, it appears to vary from state to state. Correct. For instance, in WI, if the physician is not aware of the existence of a generic, (or if he does not know the financial state of the patient*) then he will not prescribe it. In a number of cases, I have asked my physician to please prescribe generic. In one case, while widespread use of the generic name was publicly known, the patent had not yet run out. The manufacturer was granted an extension so a "new and improved" or "extended" version could get approval. After that approval was effective, then the basic generic was approved. A friend, upon discussing his prescription with the pharmacist, asked the pharmacist to call the prescribing physician to notify him of the existence and availability of the generic product. I think most physicians will honor requests for changes from brand name to generic. But it does take a clientele that has some knowledge and gumption. It is surprising to see how many people still take "Doctor says" like so much Biblical exhortation. *Medicare patients, especially, may have Part D in which various plan formularies allow different brands or require generics. Medicaid (Medical Assistance, or MA) also has some restrictions. Garrett Wollman filted: >In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to >dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >branded products, by supplying them with free prescription pads >already made out for a particular drug. On all the prescription blanks I've seen over the last ten years, the doctor is given two signature lines, one indicating "dispense as written" and the other "generic drug may be substituted"...I'll have to ask my niece about the likelihood of a pharmacist disregarding either instruction....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >On all the prescription blanks I've seen over the last ten years, the doctor is >given two signature lines, one indicating "dispense as written" and the other >"generic drug may be substituted"...I'll have to ask my niece about the >likelihood of a pharmacist disregarding either instruction....r On all the prescription blanks I've seen over the last ten years, the signature line is followed by the instructions 'Interchange is mandated unless the practitioner writes "NO SUBSTITUTION" in the space below.' The form of a prescription blank is defined by the State Board of Pharmacy or equivalent body, so they obviously differ. Your state has not chosen to "nudge" practitioners quite so strongly in the direction of generics. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>On all the prescription blanks I've seen over the last ten years, the doctor is >>given two signature lines, one indicating "dispense as written" and the other [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >state has not chosen to "nudge" practitioners quite so strongly in the >direction of generics. I happen to have an unfilled prescription blank for a strong pain killer. I was given the prescription, but felt that I could manage without it. There is no notation of any kind about filling it with a generic or non-generic. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> On all the prescription blanks I've seen over the last ten years, >>> the doctor is given two signature lines, one indicating "dispense [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > There is no notation of any kind about filling it with a generic or > non-generic. Brit doctors simply look it up in the book and write the generic name if they want to. Strikes me as a better way of doing it, as it leaves the physician in control. SignatureMike. >>>> On all the prescription blanks I've seen over the last ten years, >>>> the doctor is given two signature lines, one indicating "dispense [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >they want to. Strikes me as a better way of doing it, as it leaves the >physician in control. Or possibly the pharmacist. I have to take eight different sorts of pills or capsules each day. The doctor prescribes them generically (I don't think I have any that are specific to one manufacturer) and I seem to end up with products from different manufacturers each month. Maybe the pharmacist supplies himself with what's cheapest at any given time. The other items on my prescription that are proprietary have to be ordered each month, even though he knows that they are going to be prescribed. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>In Austria, too, generic drugs are being pushed by the health insurance >>bodies and the government as a means of saving health costs. I'm not [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >branded products, by supplying them with free prescription pads >already made out for a particular drug. How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it before, although I see it made it to the COD10, as "informal: a doctor's prescription". I don't see it in my edition of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, but the OED has for it: "Slang (orig. U.S.) Shortened form of prescription, esp one for narcotic drugs." Do many Americans use "script" this way or in the way Garrett used it? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>In Austria, too, generic drugs are being pushed by the health insurance >>>bodies and the government as a means of saving health costs. I'm not [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >U.S.) Shortened form of prescription, esp one for narcotic drugs." Do >many Americans use "script" this way or in the way Garrett used it? I have heard it used in Northern Ireland, and have used it myself when collecting a completed prescription form from my doctor's receptionist. In medical use "prescription" has more than one meaning. OED: 5. a. A doctor's instruction, usually in writing, for the composition and use of a medicine; the action of prescribing a medicine; a medicine prescribed. Also more widely: any treatment ordered by a medical practitioner. "Script" is, using the word above, "A doctor's instruction, usually in writing, for the composition and use of a medicine". On at least one occasion last year, following a phone conversation in which my doctor decided to prescribe some medicine for me, I went to my doctor's receptionist to *collect the prescription*[1]. I then walked a short distance to a nearby pharmacy to *collect the prescription*[2]. [1] "Collect the prescription" = collect the form, i.e the script. [2] "Collect the prescription" = collect the medicine prescribed. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to >>dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is >>written for the generic or for the brand name, unless the practitioner >>makes some mark on the script indicating that the brand-name drug is > How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, > abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > U.S.) Shortened form of prescription, esp one for narcotic drugs." Do > many Americans use "script" this way or in the way Garrett used it? I use it (or rather, if I were to write it the way I say it , "scrip") fairly regularly. And as a side note, I'm in Illinois, and, as far as I know, the pharmacist is at liberty to substitute a generic unless "No Substitutions" is specified on the original prescription sheet or unless there are different formulations of the same drug. (For example, my husband's insulin is Novolog 70/30. The pharmacist cannot substitute any other formulation for Novolog, even if it's still a 70/30 blend.). They aren't required to, but most do. >>>In most if not all U.S. states, pharmacists are required by law to >>>dispense a generic if available, regardless of whether the script is [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I use it (or rather, if I were to write it the way I say it , "scrip") > fairly regularly. They use both "scrip" and "script" fairly often on the alt.support.diabetes newsgroup, so I can't say whether they have all picked up the jargon from early posters, or from their pharmacists or physicians. >>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > picked up the jargon from early posters, or from their pharmacists or > physicians. For what it's worth, I picked it up from my doctor in Wisconsin. >>>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >>>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > For what it's worth, I picked it up from my doctor in Wisconsin. Oh, there, there, now. Your infecting the rest of the country with it, all unknowing, is hardly your fault. And I fear it is much too late to contain the epidemic. Before we know it, Chuck will have caught it and spread it to the four winds and seven seas. >>>>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >>>>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >contain the epidemic. Before we know it, Chuck will have caught it and >spread it to the four winds and seven seas. The winds, starting from Chicago, can circle the Midwest for many years before they have an effect on the three coasts, let alone on Europe, let alone on Ireland, where slightly over half the populace have yet to fully accept the fact they are Europeans. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, > abbreviation, "script", for prescription? Widespread enough to name a company: <http://www.express-scripts.com/> Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? > >Widespread enough to name a company: > ><http://www.express-scripts.com/> I never doubted the fact that is a word but is it as dodgy a word as that company appears to be? By dodgy, I mean would you ask your doctor for a script instead of a prescription? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that company appears to be? By dodgy, I mean would you ask your doctor > for a script instead of a prescription? Too late, Chuck. Some fool doctor in Wisconsin has already passed it on. (You will, by now, have read Barbara's comment, posted at just about the same time as this of yours.) >>>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >>>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >on. (You will, by now, have read Barbara's comment, posted at just >about the same time as this of yours.) I have, but I will fight on, for it is a bad, bad word. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, > >> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I never doubted the fact that is a word but is it as dodgy a word as > that company appears to be? Why do think the company seems dodgy? > By dodgy, I mean would you ask your doctor > for a script instead of a prescription? I wouldn't ask him for either, most of the time. I go to him with symptoms, and he writes the prescriptions. I don't personally use the word "script", but there are many words I don't use but to which I have no particular objection if others do. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> >> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >> >> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >word "script", but there are many words I don't use but to which I have >no particular objection if others do. At least you're halfway there, as I see it. For myself, I don't use the word, I would object when others do and I have objected when others do. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >> >> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, > >> >> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > the word, I would object when others do and I have objected when > others do. I really don't understand why. What's the problem with other people using a word that you don't use? SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > > I wouldn't ask him for either, most of the time. I go to him with > > symptoms, and he writes the prescriptions. I don't personally use [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the word, I would object when others do and I have objected when > others do. You are entitled to your opinion. It's not a usage that bugs me, so I certainly wouldn't complain. Even when usage does bother me, I generally don't say anything to people, unless it is a situation where I genuinely don't understand what's being said. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >>> I wouldn't ask him for either, most of the time. I go to him with >>> symptoms, and he writes the prescriptions. I don't personally use [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > generally don't say anything to people, unless it is a situation where > I genuinely don't understand what's being said. Until this discussion, I had not heard this word (with or without the "t") used for medical prescriptions. This could be because I have had very few in my life -- none in the last several decades -- and my wife seldom talks about hers. When my wife does mention them it is always with the name "prescriptions". The word "scrip" made me think back to the days just after WWII in Germany, but that was in reference to money. "Script", to me, is what actors follow. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > > You are entitled to your opinion. It's not a usage that bugs me, so > > I certainly wouldn't complain. Even when usage does bother me, I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > wife seldom talks about hers. When my wife does mention them it is > always with the name "prescriptions". I've heard it, but not through any personal interactions. I did get a couple of prescriptions last summer when the podiatrist dealt with my ingrown toenail, but I don't recall him using the term "script". Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> > You are entitled to your opinion. It's not a usage that bugs me, so >> > I certainly wouldn't complain. Even when usage does bother me, I [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >couple of prescriptions last summer when the podiatrist dealt with my >ingrown toenail, but I don't recall him using the term "script". Around here we call them chiropodists. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> I wouldn't ask him for either, most of the time. I go to him with >>>> symptoms, and he writes the prescriptions. I don't personally use [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >about hers. When my wife does mention them it is always with the name >"prescriptions". Good woman. >The word "scrip" made me think back to the days just after WWII in Germany, >but that was in reference to money. Me too, Alec, then we started using American money in the late fifties, once the German economy had stabilized. >"Script", to me, is what actors follow. That too. We didn't need another meaning, IMHO. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> I wouldn't ask him for either, most of the time. I go to him with >>>>> symptoms, and he writes the prescriptions. I don't personally use [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >That too. We didn't need another meaning, IMHO. But in both cases, medicinal and theatrical, a script is a set of instructions. We have already discussed who is being instructed by the medicinal type of script. A theatrical script instructs an actor what to do and say. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>> I wouldn't ask him for either, most of the time. I go to him with >>>>>> symptoms, and he writes the prescriptions. I don't personally use [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >medicinal type of script. A theatrical script instructs an actor what to do >and say. Now I see. I had been reading script, meaning prescription, as 'script', where two syllables had been knocked off for no apparent reason other than laziness, instead of reading it as the stand-alone word "script" with a meaning I was not familiar with. Thank you for the clarification, Peter. Your usual clarity of thought and explanation has unraveled another AUE misunderstanding. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > But in both cases, medicinal and theatrical, a script is a set of > instructions. We have already discussed who is being instructed by the > medicinal type of script. A theatrical script instructs an actor what to do > and say. As, of course, it does in computer programming. A shell script instructs a shell what to do and say. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu Peter Duncanson: >> But in both cases, medicinal and theatrical, a script is a set of >> instructions. We have already discussed who is being instructed >> by the medicinal type of script. A theatrical script instructs >> an actor what to do and say. True, but coincidental, I daresay. At least one of my doctors says "scrip" or perhaps "script" sometimes. I don't use it myself, but it certainly doesn't bother me. Nick Atty: > As, of course, it does in computer programming. A shell script > instructs a shell what to do and say. Some programming languages are called "scripting languages", but I've never seen the term actually defined and don't know what it's supposed to mean, even though I use them. SignatureMark Brader | "Perl is a minimalist language at heart. Toronto | It's just minimalistic about weird things msb@vex.net | compared to your average language." -- Larry Wall My text in this article is in the public domain. > Peter Duncanson: >>> But in both cases, medicinal and theatrical, a script is a set of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > never seen the term actually defined and don't know what it's supposed > to mean, even though I use them. I've always taken it to mean that they are interpreted, and fairly high level. Originally it was shell scripts, which were a script of things to tell the shell to do - so not even a programming language really. FOLDOC sort of agrees with me, but I don't want to go into Ousterhout's dichotomy right now. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >> > I wouldn't ask him for either, most of the time. I go to him with >> > symptoms, and he writes the prescriptions. I don't personally use [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >generally don't say anything to people, unless it is a situation where >I genuinely don't understand what's being said. I feel the same way. A usage was unclear to me so I asked a question about it. I got some very good answers, so the case was closed as far as I'm concerned. That doesn't mean I suddenly like the usage. If I said so and that bothered you, excuse me, but you are being overly sensitive. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that company appears to be? By dodgy, I mean would you ask your doctor > for a script instead of a prescription? Oh, please, Chuck! The form "script" has been used for various written things for centuries; sometimes it's an abbreviation, and sometimes it isn't. Do you object to "radio script", for example? SignatureMike. >>>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >>>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >things for centuries; sometimes it's an abbreviation, and sometimes it >isn't. Do you object to "radio script", for example? Were we talking about "radio script"? I was using "military script", for another example, when you were nearly a toddler (I was nearly a toddler, myself), but we've been talking about script's "prescription" meaning, if it can rightfully be called a "meaning". I'm tempted to call it a corruption. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland On 22 Jan 2009, Chuck Riggs wrote >>>>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too >>>>> prissy, abbreviation, "script", for prescription? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > script's "prescription" meaning, if it can rightfully be called > a "meaning". I'm tempted to call it a corruption. I assume Mike's point is that there's not a hell of a lot of difference between shortening "prescription" to "script" (or "scrip"), and shortening "scriptum" to "script". Are you also tempted to call "phone" and "bus" corruptions? >On 22 Jan 2009, Chuck Riggs wrote > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Are you also tempted to call "phone" and "bus" corruptions? "Bus" has been around for as long as I have. I used to write "`phone" but decided a few years ago it is a word in its own right. I don't write "lite" or "nite", though, and continue to abhor their usage. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>Are you also tempted to call "phone" and "bus" corruptions? > > "Bus" has been around for as long as I have. I used to write "`phone" > but decided a few years ago it is a word in its own right. I don't > write "lite" or "nite", though, and continue to abhor their usage. How are you on "amp" and "mic"? The OED dates "script", in the sense of "prescription" to 1951 (and "scrip" in that sense to 1966), while it dates "amp" for "amplifier" to 1967 and "mic" for "microphone" to 1961 (although "mike" goes back to 1926). [Attn Jesse Sheidlower: OED antedating] Looking at Google Books, I see an earlier hit for "amp": The speakers were wired, one wire to the ground of the amp, and the other wire to the DPDT switch, as shown. _Popular Science_, 11/1960. but it's still rather recent. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The purpose of writing is to inflate 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and inhibit clarity. With a little |practice, writing can be an kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |intimidating and impenetrable fog! (650)857-7572 | Calvin http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >>Are you also tempted to call "phone" and "bus" corruptions? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it dates "amp" for "amplifier" to 1967 and "mic" for "microphone" to > 1961 (although "mike" goes back to 1926). ... And "mike" is still better, as I'll maintain when I'm the last person spelling it that way. Is it just me, or is there a pattern that some words formed by aphesis (bus, cute, and fence come to mind) become standard, while words formed by abbreviation (as above) stay colloquial? I can think of only one word that formed by abbreviation but is accepted in formal writing. We've got puzzles from James Hogg, so I think I'll just admit what it is: mob. -- Jerry Friedman -- Jerry Friedman, for the love of... >> >>Are you also tempted to call "phone" and "bus" corruptions? >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > in formal writing. We've got puzzles from James Hogg, so I think > I'll just admit what it is: mob. I'm not sure why "bus" (from "omnibus") isn't formed by abbreviation. I would think that "cello" and "piano" are also acceptable in formal writing. I'd be more surprised to encounter "pantaloons" in formal writing than "pants". Ditto "memorandum" than "memo" or "moving picture" than "movie". "Tie", "gym", and "flu" seem reasonably likely. Certainly "blog" is more likely than "weblog" and "taxi" than "taximeter cab". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It is one thing to be mistaken; it is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |quite another to be willfully Palo Alto, CA 94304 |ignorant | Cecil Adams kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes: > >> >>Are you also tempted to call "phone" and "bus" corruptions? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > likely. Certainly "blog" is more likely than "weblog" and "taxi" than > "taximeter cab". I'm talking about whether the part removed comes from the beginning (aphesis) or the end (abbreviation); I hadn't thought about both, as in "flu" (or the obvious "scrip" for "prescription"). "Piano", "taxi", and probably "memo" are good examples that I overlooked, and I agree that "pants" has replaced "trousers" in American formal writing. I don't agree about "movie"; "film" is more likely. I'm not sure about "gym". "Cello", "tie", and "blog" are examples of aphesis. So you've evened the score, and maybe there is no such pattern. -- Jerry Friedman >> "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes: >> > Is it just me, or is there a pattern that some words formed by >> > aphesis (bus, cute, and fence come to mind) become standard, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I'm talking about whether the part removed comes from the beginning > (aphesis) or the end (abbreviation); Ah. That's "aphaereis", according to MWCD11 (not to be confused with "apheresis"). They define "aphesis" as specifically aphaeresis consisting of the loss of a short unaccented vowel (as in _lone_ for _alone_) The OED says that "aphesis" is "now also used in the sens of aphæresis", but I don't think I'd heard it. (Not that I hear either very often.) I tend to think of both as special cases of abbreviation and would use "truncation" if I meant to restrict it to loss at the end. > I hadn't thought about both, as in "flu" (or the obvious "scrip" for > "prescription"). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > American formal writing. I don't agree about "movie"; "film" is > more likely. That probably depends on the writing. Others I wouldn't be surprsed to find in formal writing in at least some fields: "math", "maitre d'", "cab", "fan" (in the sense of follower), "zoo", "pub", "per cent", "props" (in the theater sense), "fax", "amp" (in the sense of "ampere"), "disco", "co-ed", "cinema", "gin" (originally "geneva"). > I'm not sure about "gym". "Cello", "tie", and "blog" are examples > of aphesis. So you've evened the score, and maybe there is no such > pattern. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |To find the end of Middle English, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you discover the exact date and Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time the Great Vowel Shift took |place (the morning of May 5, 1450, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |at some time between neenuh fiftehn (650)857-7572 |and nahyn twenty-fahyv). | Kevin Wald http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes: > >> "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > The OED says that "aphesis" is "now also used in the sens of > aphæresis", but I don't think I'd heard it. So I may be the last to use "mike", but at least I'm not the first to use "aphesis" this way. I got it from Partridge's /Origins/. > (Not that I hear either > very often.) I tend to think of both as special cases of abbreviation > and would use "truncation" if I meant to restrict it to loss at the > end. I was also following Partridge in using "abbreviation" only for loss at the end. > > I hadn't thought about both, as in "flu" (or the obvious "scrip" for > > "prescription"). [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > cent", "props" (in the theater sense), "fax", "amp" (in the sense of > "ampere"), "disco", "co-ed", "cinema", "gin" (originally "geneva"). Then there's the other kind of gin, aphaereitic (?) for "engine". There's still a difference to me. Though "math" might appear in some formal writing, we all know there's a more formal version if we need it. I think what I really had in mind is words that are common in formal writing and don't have a more formal version, words that have nothing informal about them. But the pattern I was thinking of probably doesn't exist. I believe I'm missing some familiar cases of aphaereis, though. Another one for your list is "hack" (a mediocre or uninspired artist). -- Jerry Friedman jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote on Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:35:42 -0800 (PST): > On Jan 23, 1:41 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com> > wrote: > There's still a difference to me. Though "math" might appear > in some formal writing, we all know there's a more formal > version if we need it. I think what I really had in mind is > words that are common in formal writing and don't have a more > formal version, words that have nothing informal about them. > But the pattern I was thinking of probably doesn't exist. I > believe I'm missing some familiar cases of aphaereis, though. > Another one for your list is "hack" (a mediocre or uninspired > artist). Then, is the US "abbreviation" an apheresis (not a word that trips from my tongue)? And, if so, what is the British abbreviation "maths"? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Then, is the US "abbreviation" an apheresis (not a word that trips > from my tongue)? Carefull there Main Entry: aphe·re·sis Pronunciation Guide Pronunciation: /,& f@ 'ri s@s/ Function: _noun_ Inflected Form(s): _plural_ aphe·re·ses \-,siz\ Etymology: from -_apheresis_ (as in plasmapheresis) Date: 1977 : withdrawal of blood from a donor's body, removal of one or more blood components (as plasma, platelets, or white blood cells), and transfusion of the remaining blood back into the donor -- called also _pheresis_ Main Entry: aphaer·e·sis Pronunciation Guide Pronunciation: /@ 'fEr @ s@s/ Function: _noun_ Inflected Form(s): _plural_ aphaer·e·ses \-,siz\ Etymology: Late Latin, from Greek aphairesis, literally, taking off, from aphairein to take away, from apo- + hairein to take Date: circa 1550 : the loss of one or more sounds or letters at the beginning of a word (as in round for around and _coon_ for _raccoon_) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It does me no injury for my neighbor 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to say there are twenty gods, or no Palo Alto, CA 94304 |God. | Thomas Jefferson kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan wrote on Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:46:43 -0800: >> Then, is the US "abbreviation" an apheresis (not a word that >> trips from my tongue)? > Carefull there > Main Entry: aphe·re·sis Pronunciation Guide > Pronunciation: /,& f@ 'ri s@s/ [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > donor -- > called also _pheresis_ > Main Entry: aphaer·e·sis Pronunciation Guide > Pronunciation: /@ 'fEr @ s@s/ [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > beginning of a > word (as in round for around and _coon_ for _raccoon_) It may be a useful way to indicate the difference between the two meanings but it does not conform to US practice does it? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Evan wrote on Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:46:43 -0800: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > It may be a useful way to indicate the difference between the two > meanings but it does not conform to US practice does it? Well, it's a US dictionary, and it doesn't even give "apheresis" as an alternate spelling for "aphaeresis", so I presumed it did. I'm much more familiar with the medical term than the linguistic one, though. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |People think it must be fun to be a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |super genius, but they don't Palo Alto, CA 94304 |realize how hard it is to put up |with all the idiots in the world. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:53:14 -0800: >> Evan wrote on Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:46:43 -0800: >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> It may be a useful way to indicate the difference between the >> two meanings but it does not conform to US practice does it? > Well, it's a US dictionary, and it doesn't even give > "apheresis" as an alternate spelling for "aphaeresis", so I > presumed it did. I'm much more familiar with the medical term > than the linguistic one, though. Which dictionary was it? Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged (not my favorite dictionary) does mention "aphaeresis" as a "see also" in the last line. There is an entry for "aphaeresis" but all that is given as a definition is "apheresis". Tho' it does the same for "encyclopaedia", it indicates that as a mistake from Low Latin. I have not used "ae" alternatives in a long time for any word. The practice has the virtue of sometimes annoying writers of UK English. Now you've made me go to the OED. That does not acknowledge "apheresis" but does give "aphesis" as a recent alternative for "aphaeresis". Of course, it does have "aphaeresis" but says the medical use is obsolete. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Evan wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:53:14 -0800: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Which dictionary was it? Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, 11th edition (on-line) > Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged (not my favorite dictionary) does > mention "aphaeresis" as a "see also" in the last line. There is an [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "aphaeresis". Of course, it does have "aphaeresis" but says the > medical use is obsolete. "Apheresis" as a medical term is quite current. The blood bank I donate at does it. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"The Dynamics of Interbeing and 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Monological Imperatives in 'Dick Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and Jane' : A Study in Psychic |Transrelational Modes." kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >That probably depends on the writing. Others I wouldn't be surprsed >to find in formal writing in at least some fields: "math", "maitre >d'", "cab", "fan" (in the sense of follower), "zoo", "pub", "per >cent", "props" (in the theater sense), "fax", "amp" (in the sense of >"ampere"), "disco", "co-ed", "cinema", "gin" (originally "geneva"). Go ahead, find me a piece of writing that doesn't abbreviate "wi-fi" (you can probably manage "stereo" without much trouble).... The other day I ordered iced tea and the waitress asked if I wanted "sweetened or un"...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Go ahead, find me a piece of writing that doesn't abbreviate "wi-fi" (you can >probably manage "stereo" without much trouble).... When you say 'abbreviate "wi-fi"' do you mean 'use that abbreviation'? It is not clear what the full form is. "wi-" is "wireless", but OED says: [< wi- (in WIRELESS adj.) + -fi, an apparently arbitrary second element probably chosen only for euphony, punningly after HI-FI n. Subsequent reinterpretation of this word as a shortening of wireless fidelity is spurious.] SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Go ahead, find me a piece of writing that doesn't abbreviate "wi-fi" Abbreviate it to what? "Wi-fi" itself isn't really an abbreviation as a whole. The "wi" comes from "wireless", but the "fi" is just by analogy to the abbreviated "fi" in "hi-fi". > (you can probably manage "stereo" without much trouble).... This brings up a an interesting class. While you might well find "stereophonic" in formal writing as the adjective, the noun the abbreviated form engendered is always a "stereo". Similarly, there may have been a time when a movie could have been a "cinematograph" or a "cinema", but I don't think that theaters have ever been anything other than the short form. > The other day I ordered iced tea and the waitress asked if I wanted > "sweetened or un"...r It used to be relatively common to be asked in restaurants "Smoking or non?" SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The Society for the Preservation of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Tithesis commends your ebriated and Palo Alto, CA 94304 |scrutable use of delible and |defatigable, which are gainly, sipid kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |and couth. We are gruntled and (650)857-7572 |consolate that you have the ertia and |eptitude to choose such putably http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |pensible tithesis, which we parage. <snip> >While you might well find >"stereophonic" in formal writing as the adjective, the noun the >abbreviated form engendered is always a "stereo". <snip> A sound system isn't "a stereo" to everyone. I've never called one of my hi-fi systems a "stereo", for it is a word I associate with cheap portables or even boom boxes. Perhaps because I consider low levels of distortion and an accurate frequency response to be more important than the stereo feature, "hi-fi" or "hi-fi system" have always made better sense to me. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >than the stereo feature, "hi-fi" or "hi-fi system" have always made >better sense to me. The one my parents had when I was little was a hi-fi, but all the ones I've owned since then have had more than one speaker each....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Chuck Riggs filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > The one my parents had when I was little was a hi-fi, but all the ones I've > owned since then have had more than one speaker each. In the transition to stereophonic recorded sound from monophonic (late Fifties in the US), the retailers decided that anything not stereo was "hi-fi." For a few years most recordings were issued in separate mono and stereo versions, and the mono could be found in bins labeled "hi-fi." The actual sonic fidelity of the recordings and equipment was irrelevant; if it wasn't stereo it was "hi-fi." I still recall when one of the local record stores announced that it was selling its entire stock of "hi-fi" records at half price. I brought to the cash register several Mercury Living Presence LPs, on which the banner across the top of the jacket prominently displayed "HI-FI," and asked for the sale price. The cashier literally couldn't understand what I was talking about. The manager finally explained to me that "hi-fi" didn't really mean "hi-fi." Rather than tattle on them to the Federal Trade Commission, I gave in. This was the same record store where I once asked for the latest Schwann catalog only to be told that they didn't sell Swan records. (I didn't go there very often.) Anyway, it strikes me that "hi fi" or "high fidelity" or whatever is an obsolete term except as a historical reference (and possibly in contemporary use among "golden ears"). "Stereo" means a technique of sound recording and does not connote the sonic quality of the recording. That's my story, and I'm stuck with it. SignatureBob Lieblich Molybdenum ear Robert Lieblich filted: >> The one my parents had when I was little was a hi-fi, but all the ones I've >> owned since then have had more than one speaker each. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >"hi-fi." The actual sonic fidelity of the recordings and equipment was >irrelevant; if it wasn't stereo it was "hi-fi." "Monophonic"?..."monaural", shirley.... (Yes, just grabbed a handful of Smothers Brothers LPs from nearby and that's the contrasting term used)....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" [ ... ] > "Monophonic"?..."monaural", shirley.... > > (Yes, just grabbed a handful of Smothers Brothers LPs from nearby and that's the > contrasting term used). The Smothers Brothers are your authority on usage? I dunno about you, but I have two ears (one of which is better than the others these days). "Monophonic" is the precise term. "Monaural" is jargon at best, nonsense at worst. SignatureBob Lieblich Who ever heard of "quadaural"? Robert Lieblich filted: >[ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >the others these days). "Monophonic" is the precise term. "Monaural" >is jargon at best, nonsense at worst. Then it's the jargon of MERCURY records in the 1960s, because something like the following appears on ten of the twelve Smothers albums: This MERCURY record is the result of the most modern recording techniques in the phonograph industry. In STEREO -- The 15° cutter slant angle is utilized, the latest development in the art of disc recording. The vertical-tracking-angle between cartridge and groove greatly reduces intermodulation distortion and gives the utmost reproduction of the original sound through its dynamic depth control and reliable stylus tracking. To protect your stereo recording, play only on a phonograph with stereo reproducing cartridge according to the RIAA standards. In MONO -- The master tapes are transferred directly through the finest Ampex 300 series tape machine in a specially designed power amplifier which drives the BBC Grampian Feedback Cutting Head. Because of the simplicity of our new recording techniques, quality listening on either stereo or monaural phonographs is assured. In monaural or stereo, your MERCURY record will give you the truest possible reproduction of the original sound. The only other choices within easy reach were albums by Charlie Weaver, Jerry Lewis, The Four Lads, and Les Baxter...unfortunately, only the Charlie Weaver album even acknowledged the existence of stereo, and the portion of that cover with the relevant blurb is damaged in such a way that the word used is missing....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Robert Lieblich filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Then it's the jargon of MERCURY records in the 1960s, because something like the > following appears on ten of the twelve Smothers albums: [ ... ] > In monaural or stereo, your MERCURY record will give you the truest possible > reproduction of the original sound. Who ya gonna believe -- the obviously correct etymology or your own lyin' eyes? ("Lionize"?) And anyway, it's advertising copy. It reads good, like advertising copy should. And anyway, people understand both terms, so let's just chalk it up to alternative usages and move on. SignatureBob Lieblich Not up for this fight (if any) > Robert Lieblich filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > "Monophonic"?..."monaural", shirley.... The monks of Solesmes did a number of albums that were both monophonic and monaural. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. <snip> >Anyway, it strikes me that "hi fi" or "high fidelity" or whatever is >an obsolete term except as a historical reference (and possibly in >contemporary use among "golden ears"). "Stereo" means a technique of >sound recording and does not connote the sonic quality of the >recording. That's my story, and I'm stuck with it. You nearly have it right. I'll add that "stereo", for stereophonic, has nothing to do with the quality of sound reproduction and everything to do with maintaining two channels of sound reproduction, from recording to playback. "Hi-Fi", for high fidelity, means the equipment was designed to record or reproduce sound at low distortion levels. The better, and generally the more expensive the system, the lower will be the distortion levels and the closer the frequency response of the system will be to a flat curve from, roughly, 20 to 20,000 Hz. "Stereo" means two channels of sound are maintained, from recording to playback, in order to fool the listener into thinking he is in a larger hall than he is and to give him more realism by the directionality of the instruments and singers. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland [...] > The other day I ordered iced tea and the waitress asked if I wanted > "sweetened or un"...r To which, did you reply "Ish"? SignatureMike. Mike Lyle filted: >[...] >> >> The other day I ordered iced tea and the waitress asked if I wanted >> "sweetened or un"...r > >To which, did you reply "Ish"? I said "un"...the restaurant supplied only white, pink and yellow packets; I carry a supply of blue ones for precisely this reason.... "Ish", to me, was a cornet player with a bowl haircut....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" "jerry_friedman wrote: >> "jerry_friedman writes: >> > Is it just me, or is there a pattern that some words formed by >> > aphesis (bus, cute, and fence come to mind) become standard, while >> > words formed by abbreviation (as above) stay colloquial? I can >> > think of only one word that formed by abbreviation but is accepted >> > in formal writing. We've got puzzles from James Hogg, so I think >> > I'll just admit what it is: mob. >> I'm not sure why "bus" (from "omnibus") isn't formed by abbreviation. >> I would think that "cello" and "piano" are also acceptable in formal [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> likely. Certainly "blog" is more likely than "weblog" and "taxi" than >> "taximeter cab". > I'm talking about whether the part removed comes from the beginning > (aphesis) or the end (abbreviation); I hadn't thought about both, as [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > examples of aphesis. So you've evened the score, and maybe there is > no such pattern. I think that "gym" has become standard, with "gymnasium" relegated to use only when the room itself is the topic. "The dance was held in the gymnasium, which had been decorated with crepe paper." Everything else is "gym": gym class, a gym membership, gym shoes, going to the gym (the complex, not just the room). > "jerry_friedman wrote: > >> "jerry_friedman writes: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > "gym": gym class, a gym membership, gym shoes, going to the gym (the > complex, not just the room). You can't use "gymnasium" with the first three of those, but they have more formal alternatives: physical-eduation class (probably written without the hyphen), a health-club membership, athletic shoes et al. When you're talking about a complex, not just the room (also known as the gym floor), I think you can call it a gymnasium, and it's likely to have a name. In a couple hours I'll go to this college's Fitness Education Center (where I'll do some exercises in the Resistance Training Center, TRFKA the weight room). My alma mater had a gymnastics team in the remote past, and alumni of that time sometimes refer to the gym team. -- Jerry Friedman >> I think that "gym" has become standard, with "gymnasium" relegated >> to use only when the room itself is the topic. "The dance was held [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > college's Fitness Education Center (where I'll do some exercises in > the Resistance Training Center, TRFKA the weight room). I think you're moving the goalposts. Your original claim was that words formed by abbreviation weren't, with one exception that came to mind, "accepted in formal writing". That there may be a *more* formal term doesn't mean that a word isn't routinely used. If someone were to write a dissertation on, say, the history of basketball or a biography of former Sen. William Bradley, I'd be very surprised if the word "gym" didn't show up as a neutral term several times. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |A specification which calls for 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |network-wide use of encryption, but Palo Alto, CA 94304 |invokes the Tooth Fairy to handle |key distribution, is a useless kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |farce. (650)857-7572 | Henry Spencer http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes: > >> I think that "gym" has become standard, with "gymnasium" relegated [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > mind, "accepted in formal writing". That there may be a *more* formal > term doesn't mean that a word isn't routinely used. That's right. I felt there was something more informal about a lot of abbreviations than about a lot of aphaereses, and I'm trying to define that feeling well. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your argument. Anyway, my feeling was probably wrong. > If someone were > to write a dissertation on, say, the history of basketball or a > biography of former Sen. William Bradley, I'd be very surprised if the > word "gym" didn't show up as a neutral term several times. I didn't look for those, but "gym" is almost as common as "gymnasium" at Google Scholar (81,900 to 97,900, caveats apply). -- Jerry Friedman [...] > "Piano", "taxi", and probably "memo" are good examples that I > overlooked, and I agree that "pants" has replaced "trousers" in > American formal writing. I don't agree about "movie"; "film" is more > likely. I'm not sure about "gym". "Cello", "tie", and "blog" are > examples of aphesis. So you've evened the score, and maybe there is > no such pattern. "Memo", "pants", "movie", and "gym" are all still informal for me. You both mean, I take it, that "tie" is aphetic from "necktie". I'm not going to the stake over it, but I'm not sure that's a necessary interpretation, since there are other ties about our wardrobes which don't seem to insist on having a prefix--for shoes, pyjamas, etc. The "neck" element could, on that reasoning, be a later addition. It seems so from OED (1761 vs. 1838), though the Dictionary does use "neck-tie" to explain "tie". "Blog" may be a special case, since it's a coinage which moved so rapidly from abbreviation to jargon to formal language that most users probably didn't have a chance to see "weblog". But I won't suffer an auto da fé over that, either. SignatureMike. <snip> >"Blog" may be a special case, since it's a coinage which moved so >rapidly from abbreviation to jargon to formal language that most users >probably didn't have a chance to see "weblog". That answers a question I had upthread. I had never heard the term "weblog", so I had no idea how "blog" got started. From the COD10, I see that a weblog is: "n. a personal website, on which an individual or group of users record opinions, links to other sites, etc. on a regular basis DERIVATIVES weblogger n." This leads me to a technical question: how does a "personal website" differ from any other? >But I won't suffer an >auto da fé over that, either. What is an adf in English? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >This leads me to a technical question: how does a "personal website" >differ from any other? It is a website owned and operated by an individual (a person) rather than by an organisation. I have a personal website. It is underdeveloped. I do not blog on it. http://www.peterduncanson.net/ I am a totally inactive member of a railway preservation society. It has a website. This is not a "personal website": http://www.whr.co.uk/ SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >It is a website owned and operated by an individual (a person) rather than by >an organisation. A personal website typically gives information about the owner and the owner's life and interests. >I have a personal website. It is underdeveloped. I do not blog on it. >http://www.peterduncanson.net/ > >I am a totally inactive member of a railway preservation society. It has a >website. This is not a "personal website": >http://www.whr.co.uk/ SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>><snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >A personal website typically gives information about the owner and the owner's >life and interests. I see. Then there is no technical difference. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > I am a totally inactive member of a railway preservation society. Would that make you a "sleeper"? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> I am a totally inactive member of a railway preservation society. > >Would that make you a "sleeper"? Very good. I hadn't thought of that one. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Peter wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:05:17 +0000: >>> I am a totally inactive member of a railway preservation >>> society. >> >> Would that make you a "sleeper"? > Very good. > I hadn't thought of that one. Good! But it's a British joke since the American term is "cross-tie". SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Peter wrote: >> [someone else had written:] >>>> I am a totally inactive member of a railway preservation >>>> society. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Good! But it's a British joke since the American term is "cross-tie". I had not heard of that one, but I did find "crosstie" in AHD4. I had heard of railroad ties, and sometimes just ties, if the subject is already about railroads. SignatureSkitt (AmE) No NESsie, but oh, so close ... Skitt wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:53:04 -0800: >> Peter wrote: >>> [someone else had written:] >>>>> I am a totally inactive member of a railway preservation >>>>> society. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Good! But it's a British joke since the American term is >> "cross-tie". > I had not heard of that one, but I did find "crosstie" in > AHD4. I had heard of railroad ties, and sometimes just ties, > if the subject is already about railroads. Have you heard the folk song, "On top of Old Smokey"? "Than cross-ties on the railroad Or stars in the sky" SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >>> Peter wrote: >>>> [someone else had written:] >>>>>> I am a totally inactive member of a railway preservation >>>>>> society. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > "Than cross-ties on the railroad > Or stars in the sky" Yeah, but I never learned or paid attention to anything past the first stanza or the various parodies of it. M-W Online didn't either, but it does refer one to their Unabridged version for "crosstie". SignatureSkitt (AmE) > >>> Peter wrote: > >>>> [someone else had written:] [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > "Than cross-ties on the railroad > > Or stars in the sky" I learned it as "skies", rhyming with "lies". > Yeah, but I never learned or paid attention to anything past the first > stanza or the various parodies of it. M-W Online didn't either, but it does > refer one to their Unabridged version for "crosstie". It's worth knowing all the verses in case you have to put a small child to sleep--though I haven't had to do that for a long time, I admit. -- Jerry Friedman Skitt filted: >> Have you heard the folk song, "On top of Old Smokey"? >> "Than cross-ties on the railroad [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >stanza or the various parodies of it. M-W Online didn't either, but it does >refer one to their Unabridged version for "crosstie". Not a CCR fan, then, either? Up at Cody's camp I spent my days, oh, With flatcar riders and cross-tie walkers. Old Cody, Junior took me over, Said, "you're gonna find the world is smould'rin' An' if you get lost, come on home to Green River". Not that anyone has ever been able to figure out those lyrics without help....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Skitt filted: >>> Have you heard the folk song, "On top of Old Smokey"? >>> "Than cross-ties on the railroad [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Not that anyone has ever been able to figure out those lyrics without > help....r No fan. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >Skitt wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:53:04 -0800: >>> Peter wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >"Than cross-ties on the railroad >Or stars in the sky" I know what the AmE ties are if I think carefully, but the image that always arrives first in my mind, incorrectly, is of the wire clips that tie the rails to the sleepers/crossties. Tying the opposite rails together at the right separation is obviously a more appropriate use of 'tie' in the context, though. Tie bars or tie rods that move with the rail ends are used for the same purpose at switches/points. The wire clips I can't forget are these outsize twisted paperclips: <http://www.scalefour.org/resources/images/Pandrol1.jpg> 'Wire' can be pretty thick in industrial usage, though generally the wire rod from which thinner wire is drawn is formed by rolling down to around 1cm in diameter. SignaturePaul >> Peter wrote: >>> [someone else had written:] [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >of railroad ties, and sometimes just ties, if the subject is already about >railroads. When they are replaced by the railroad they are sold around here as landscape timbers. It's not unusual to see a sign that says "crossties for sale". A "sleeper" would be a railroad car with sleeping compartments. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> Peter wrote: >>>> [someone else had written:] >>>>>> I am a totally inactive member of a railway preservation >>>>>> society. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > A "sleeper" would be a railroad car with sleeping compartments. I've bought old railroad ties for our back yard. That was in Santa Clara, California. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> Peter wrote: >>>> [someone else had written:] [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >A "sleeper" would be a railroad car with sleeping compartments. As it is also in BrE. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> Peter wrote: >>>>> [someone else had written:] [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >As it is also in BrE. The sides of my fishpond are made of railway sleepers. It took us a long time to find ones that were not soaked through with creosote, and they were allowed to weather for a couple of years before its construction. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England tony cooper wrote, in <fvbnn4luc8ka2dds3vul5sv49fluiltmr9@4ax.com> on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:21:32 -0500: > >> Peter wrote: > >>> [someone else had written:] [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > A "sleeper" would be a railroad car with sleeping compartments. That too in BrE, or a train that included such cars. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > Peter wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:05:17 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Good! But it's a British joke since the American term is "cross-tie". Or "sleeper", to my memory, and Merriam-Webster's agrees. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> Peter wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:05:17 +0000: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Or "sleeper", to my memory, and Merriam-Webster's agrees. Your memory seens to differ from mine. I don't think I have ever heard "sleeper" for "cross-tie" in the US whatever Merriam Webster says. However, dictionaries do differ. The OED says "aphaeresis" as a medical term is obsolete but Evan Kirschenbaum and Merriam Webster says "apheresis" is current. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland >>> Peter wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:05:17 +0000: >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > term is obsolete but Evan Kirschenbaum and Merriam Webster says > "apheresis" is current. The Swedish word "sliper" is just a Swedish spelling of "sleeper". We must have got it from English. >> Peter wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:05:17 +0000: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Or "sleeper", to my memory, and Merriam-Webster's agrees. I don't recall ever having looked up the origin of this word "sleeper" so I have been OED-surfing. (To architectural historians: move along. There is nothing to see here.) The word "sleeper" was not coined for for the length of wood used to hold railway track rails. It was a pre-existing term. Somehow I have been in complete ignorance of this fact: sleeper, n. II. 8. a. A strong horizontal beam or balk supporting a wall, joist, floor, or other main part of a building. b. A valley-rafter in a roof. Obs. 9. a. Shipbuilding. A strong internal timber in a ship 10. a. Mil. A piece of timber forming one of the rests of a wooden platform for artillery. b. A piece of timber or other material used to form a support (usually transverse) for the rails of a tramway or railway. c. A strong longitudinal beam in a wooden bridge, supporting the transverse planks or logs. d. In general use: A horizontal beam, plank, etc., used to support any weighty body. Etymology: [f. SLEEP v. + -ER1. Cf. Fris. slieper, (M)Du. slaper, (M)LG. slaper, sleper, MHG. slâf-, slæfære, G. schlafer. With the transferred applications of the word in branch II cf. DORMANT a. 3 and n. 1 and DORMER 3.] dormant, a. and n. [a. OF. dormant (12th c. in Hatz.-Darm.), pr. pple. of dormir:{em}L. dorm{imac}re to sleep.] B. n. 1. A fixed horizontal beam; a sleeper; a summer. More fully dormant tree (see A. 3). Obs. b. The part between the opening and the top of a doorway; the tympanum. Obs. rare. 3. A dish which remains on the table throughout a repast; a centre-piece which is not removed. dormer 2. A projecting vertical window in the sloping roof of a house. Also dormer-window. [Orig. the window of a dormitory or bed-room.] 3. A beam; = DORMANT n. 1. Obs. How did this information pass me by? Perhaps I was, um, not awake, when it was handed out. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > What is an adf in English? It /is/ English, though of all-too-expectedly foreign birth. An "Act of the Faith", as delivered by the Spanish Inquisition: it often required going to the stake. SignatureMike. >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >the Faith", as delivered by the Spanish Inquisition: it often required >going to the stake. I always thought an auto da fé was the pope's fiat. James <snip> >"Cello", "tie", and "blog" are >examples of aphesis. How was "blog" formed? None of my dictionaries are new enough to contain the word. <snip> SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > How was "blog" formed? None of my dictionaries are new enough to > contain the word. Web log. SignatureDavid >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Web log. Thanks. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland On 23 Jan 2009, jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote > On Jan 23, 10:55 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > And "mike" is still better, as I'll maintain when I'm the last > person spelling it that way. We'll form a society or something. I first came across the "mic" spelling about 20 years ago, before which I'd always seen it spelled "mike" -- and my mind's ear still reads the more recent one as "mick". SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote >>> How are you on "amp" and "mic"? The OED dates "script", in the >>> sense of "prescription" to 1951 (and "scrip" in that sense to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "mike" -- and my mind's ear still reads the more recent one as > "mick". AOL SignatureSkitt, drawing from experiences in these places: http://www.geocities.com/opus731/places.html > > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote > >>> How are you on "amp" and "mic"? The OED dates "script", in the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > Skitt, drawing from experiences in these places:http://www.geocities.com/opus731/places.html Three--that's not just a society, that's a movement! -- Jerry Friedman >>> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote >>>>> How are you on "amp" and "mic"? The OED dates "script", in the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Three--that's not just a society, that's a movement! Four--that's a landslide. SignatureMike. >> How are you on "amp" and "mic"? The OED dates "script", in the sense >> of "prescription" to 1951 (and "scrip" in that sense to 1966), while [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And "mike" is still better, as I'll maintain when I'm the last person > spelling it that way. I'm with you, but you are younger, so you may well set the record for being the last. To me, "mic" is weird, but then, I might be too. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>Are you also tempted to call "phone" and "bus" corruptions? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >it dates "amp" for "amplifier" to 1967 and "mic" for "microphone" to >1961 (although "mike" goes back to 1926). Without looking, I'll bet you that amp for ampere predates amp for amplifier. In any case, amp for ampere is how I've always used the term. Amp for amplifier has always made my blood boil. I won't even say what mic and mike, established men's names well before the microphone was invented (Graham Bell?), for microphone does. I've never understood why some people are as lazy-tongued as they are. >[Attn Jesse Sheidlower: OED antedating] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >but it's still rather recent. Very recent, I'd say, compared to the discovery of current flow in wires. Was Faraday responsible for that? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >Without looking, I'll bet you that amp for ampere predates amp for >amplifier. In any case, amp for ampere is how I've always used the >term. Amp for amplifier has always made my blood boil. I won't even >say what mic and mike, established men's names well before the >microphone was invented (Graham Bell?), for microphone does. I've >never understood why some people are as lazy-tongued as they are. Follow-ups set to alt.usage.choctaw....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Follow-ups set to alt.usage.choctaw....r Because of "lazy-tongued"? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >>Chuck Riggs filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Because of "lazy-tongued"? What else?...you didn't say anything about the size of your behind....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >What else?...you didn't say anything about the size of your behind....r I may have to, since "lazy-tongued" didn't work to round her up. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >>>>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > meaning, if it can rightfully be called a "meaning". I'm tempted to > call it a corruption. If, by "military script" you mean the non-money bills that are sometimes used by armies to pay for requisitioned goods, that's "scrip". No "T". scrip "a certificate of a right to receive something (esp. a stock share)," 1762, probably shortened from (sub)scrip(tion) receipt. Originally "receipt for a portion of a loan subscribed," meaning "certificate issued as currency" first recorded 1790. Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper noun a certificate whose value is recognized by the payer and payee; scrip is not currency but may be convertible into currency WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University. >>>>>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >>>>>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >a certificate whose value is recognized by the payer and payee; scrip is >not currency but may be convertible into currency I vaguely remember debates among dependents of the American occupying forces in Germany in the fifties, of whom I was one, over whether the word contained a t or not. "Script" is far easier to say, so I believe it won out. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> If, by "military script" you mean the non-money bills that are >> sometimes used by armies to pay for requisitioned goods, that's [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > word contained a t or not. "Script" is far easier to say, so I believe > it won out. I was there (1944-1949), and I went with "scrip". So do most, if not all, dictionaries. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> If, by "military script" you mean the non-money bills that are >>> sometimes used by armies to pay for requisitioned goods, that's [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >I was there (1944-1949), and I went with "scrip". So do most, if not all, >dictionaries. I know, but try to pronounce it. Then say "script". Much easier. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>I was there (1944-1949), and I went with "scrip". So do most, if >>not all, dictionaries. > > I know, but try to pronounce it. Then say "script". Much easier. I can't think of any reason why a final consonant cluster would be easier to pronounce than just the first consonant. There are speakers of many languages who would find the final /pt/ nearly impossible. (Of course, they'd probably have trouble wrapping their tongues around the /skr/, as well.) I'd think that the only reason people might see "script" as easier to say than "scrip" would be that "script" is already in their vocabulary in another sense. Indeed, there are other words that contrast on this very distinction (rip/ripped, drip/dripped, strip/stripped, etc.) and I don't think the first of each pair has ever been seen as harder to pronounce than the second. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Specifically, I'd like to debate 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |whether cannibalism ought to be Palo Alto, CA 94304 |grounds for leniency in murder, |since it's less wasteful. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >I can't think of any reason why a final consonant cluster would be >easier to pronounce than just the first consonant. There are speakers [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I don't think the first of each pair has ever been seen as harder to >pronounce than the second. When my brother was little, he used to ask people if they knew how to play "chest"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >When my brother was little, he used to ask people if they knew how to play >"chest"....r That makes sense to me. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>I don't think the first of each pair has ever been seen as harder to >>pronounce than the second. On "scrip"/"script" in general: in another newsgroup I've just seen "scrip" used for "doctor's prescription" by a native, non-medical, Brit. > When my brother was little, he used to ask people if they knew how to play > "chest"....r My daughter likewise. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>>>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >>>>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Were we talking about "radio script"? I refuse to believe that you have forgotten the meaning of the phrase "for example", which you may have spotted immediately after "radio script" in my message. If you don't like "script" as an abbreviated form of "prescription", I feel entitled to ask if you also dislike "script" as an abbreviation of "manuscript", which I assume is its origin in the theatre, film, and broadcasting. If, however, "script" is /not/ an abbreviation of "manuscript" in the performing arts context, but an Anglicization of /scriptum/ (as Harvey credibly suggests), then it's perfectly legitimate to use the same word for a physician's written recipe. > I was using "military script", > for another example, when you were nearly a toddler (I was nearly a > toddler, myself), but we've been talking about script's "prescription" > meaning, if it can rightfully be called a "meaning". I'm tempted to > call it a corruption. Well, I'd be inclined to resist that temptation...unless I really wanted to open a catering size can of very lively worms. SignatureMike. >>>>>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >>>>>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >Well, I'd be inclined to resist that temptation...unless I really wanted >to open a catering size can of very lively worms. "Script" is a word, not an abbreviation, when it refers to money. It has been reserved for that usage, has it not, since it still means that, IINM? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >>>>>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, > >>>>>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > has been reserved for that usage, has it not, since it still means > that, IINM? "Script" for money is an abbreviation, if I'm reading the OED correctly. It's an abbreviation of "subscription". SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary Amethyst wrote on Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:10:52 -0000: > "Script" for money is an abbreviation, if I'm reading the OED > correctly. It's an abbreviation of "subscription". Am I under a false impression in thinking that word is "scrip" without the "t" when used for military payments or other exhangeable promises to pay? It's the only word I remember seeing in the US. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Amethyst wrote on Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:10:52 -0000: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the "t" when used for military payments or other exhangeable promises > to pay? It's the only word I remember seeing in the US. Well, as Barb says, "script" (for prescription) is often prounounced "scrip" so either she or people she hears talking say it that way (Chicago area, I think). Aside from that, I believe that in many communities, during the depression era (basically in the '30s), when NOBODY had money, stores accepted scrip printed by local governments. That kept the stores open and the government working, since they had insufficient tax revenues. They paid their employees with scrip, they paid for supplies with scrip, they paid day-workers (as for trash, road repair, and the like) with scrip. I believe some counties issuing welfare payments (the dole) used scrip. I never investigated how and when scrip payments started, nor how or when the scrip was redeemed. But when rationing started during WWII, people were ready for it, though it was more complicated than the scrip was. Scrip was basically a local government's IOU, but I think businessmen had a kind of gentlemen's agreement with their banks* to clear credit, as well. As with anything else, "you gotta know people". And that is the story of a lot of lobbying, too. *Of course, with many banks failing, one can understand the lack of money in circulation, so there were many makeshift ways of doing business. Barter was, of course, very common. >> Amethyst wrote: >>> "Script" for money is an abbreviation, if I'm reading the OED >>> correctly. It's an abbreviation of "subscription". [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > money in circulation, so there were many makeshift ways of doing > business. Barter was, of course, very common. From what I find in M-W Online and AHD4, "scrip" in monetary usage has nothing to do with "subscription" or "prescription", those two not being tied to money in any way. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > From what I find in M-W Online and AHD4, "scrip" in monetary usage > has nothing to do with "subscription" or "prescription", those two > not being tied to money in any way. The OED has a sense of Originally, a receipt for a portion of a loan subscribed. Now, in strict commercial use, a provisional document entitling the holder to a share or number of shares in a joint-stock undertaking, and exchangeable for a more formal certificate when the necessary payments have been completed; often collect. sing. Hence, in loose or popular language, applied to share certificates in general. cited from 1762 to 1901, which they take to be a shortened form for "subscription receipt", a "subscription" being "a share in a commercial undertaking or loan". They surmise that "scrip" in the monetary sense was "influenced" by (though not derived from) that. They cite "scrip" in the monetary sense to 1889, although Google Books pushes it back a bit, but the two senses seem to get entangled. [Attn Jesse Sheidlower: OED antedating] Many of the earlier hits for "military scrip" also talk about "land warrants", and the earliest I see occurs in the same document with In compliance with a resolution of the House of Representatives, dated the 20th March last, directing the Secretary of the Treasury "to communicate a statement showing what amount of the sales of public land has been paid in the notes and bills of the United States' Bank, in each of the States and Territories, respectively where public land has been sold, in each year, between the 1st of January, 1828, till the 1st of January, 1832; and, also, what amount of such sales has been paid in the notes of other banks, in scrip, by law made receivable for public land, or in specie, within the same time, in such States and Territories;" I have the honor to ... Letter, Sec. Treas. Louis McLane to Speaker of the House of Representatives, May 4, 1832. which seems to imply that the government paid (at least some of its debts) in notes that were backed by the ability to purchase government-owned land rather than gold or silver. Another early hit: Be it resolved, by the senate and house of representatives of the republic of Texas, in congress assembled, That the first auditor is authorized to audit the claim of widow Kitty McCoy as per vouchers of Byrd Lockhart and colonel William H. Patton for beef and corn, valued at three hundred and seventy-eight dollars in military scrip. Session Laws, 12/18/1837 So it looks to me as though it started out as government-issued land-backed certificates that were treated the same as stock "subscriptions", got extended to "the paper the military prints to pay its debts", and finally any non-specie-backed (or non-bank-issued) paper currency. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The misinformation that passes for 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |gospel wisdom about English usage Palo Alto, CA 94304 |is sometimes astounding. | Merriam-Webster's Dictionary kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | of English Usage (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > "Script" is a word, not an abbreviation, when it refers to money. It > has been reserved for that usage, has it not, since it still means > that, IINM? I don't think I've ever seen it as "script" in that sense, only "scrip", and the OED doesn't seem to be sure about whether it was an abbreviation or not. They list it in with the "small piece or scrap of paper" sense, which they guess derives from "scrap" and "scrape", but that particular sense is "probably influenced by" another sense, which is short for "subscription receipt" and referred to stock certificates. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There are two types of people - 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |those who are one of the two types Palo Alto, CA 94304 |of people, and those who are not. | Leigh Blue Caldwell kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> "Script" is a word, not an abbreviation, when it refers to money. It >> has been reserved for that usage, has it not, since it still means [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >which is short for "subscription receipt" and referred to stock >certificates. As I wrote upthread, most of us in Germany knew, I thought, we were buying things in scrip, but many of us called it script because we found the word easier and quicker to say. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, > abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > U.S.) Shortened form of prescription, esp one for narcotic drugs." Do > many Americans use "script" this way or in the way Garrett used it? My BrE mother used it regularly - but she had always been in one of the Professions Supplementary to Medicine. She'd write it - of course - as Rx. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the Professions Supplementary to Medicine. She'd write it - of > course - as Rx. "Receipt", of course. Which, coming from "Recipe" is all that it is. (My dad grew up referring to "recipes" as "receipts". When we say "prescribe" in many cases, we think of it as an imperative statement, but in medicine, is that a command to the pharmacist or to the patient? > When we say "prescribe" in many cases, we think of it as an imperative >statement, but in medicine, is that a command to the pharmacist or to >the patient? I think we need to separate out the overall purpose of "prescribing" from any legally mandated implementation details. OED: 3. a. trans. To advise or order the use of (a medicine, remedy, treatment, etc.), esp. by a written prescription. With to or indirect object. Also fig. The doctor advises or orders the patient to take a specified medicine. That is the "prescribing" performed by the doctor. There is then a formal procedure to be followed to get the medication to the patient. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >"Receipt", of course. Which, coming from "Recipe" is all that it is. Ah-ha. Rx doesn't come directly from "recipe", which certainly makes sense? I don't see the "receipt" connection. >(My dad grew up referring to "recipes" as "receipts". > > When we say "prescribe" in many cases, we think of it as an imperative >statement, but in medicine, is that a command to the pharmacist or to >the patient? Good question. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >>>> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Ah-ha. Rx doesn't come directly from "recipe", which certainly makes >sense? I don't see the "receipt" connection. "Receipt" and "recipe" have a common origin in the Latin "recipere" to receive. OED: receipt, n. [ME. receite, receit, a. AF. (ONF.) receite, receyte (1304-5) = OF. reçoite, var. of recete = Sp. receta, Pg. receita, It. ricetta:{em}L. recepta, fem. pa. pple. of recip{ebreve}re to RECEIVE. The vowel of OF. receite, reçoite is app. due to the influence of such verbal forms as receit, reçoit. The normal OF. form is recete, the more usual recepte (whence mod.F. recette) being a learned reversion to the Latin form (cf. RECEPT n.1). In Eng., the spelling receipt (with p from Latin, as in OF. reçoipte) has prevailed in this word, in contrast to the related CONCEIT and DECEIT.] I. 1. a. A formula or prescription, a statement of the ingredients (and mode of procedure) necessary for the making of some preparation, esp. in Med. (now rare) and Cookery; a RECIPE. And: recipe, v. and n. [Latin recipe take (2nd sing. imp. of recip{ebreve}re to RECEIVE), used by physicians (abbreviated R, {recipe}) to head prescriptions, and hence applied to these and similar formulae. So F. récipé (15th c.). imperative] A. v. imp. = Take. Obs. B. n. 1. Med. A formula for a medical prescription; a prescription, or the remedy prepared in accordance with this. 2. A statement of the ingredients and procedure necessary for the making or compounding of some preparation, esp. of a dish in cookery; a receipt. Also fig. 3. transf. A means (actual or suggested) for attaining or effecting some end. So the Rx symbol on a prescription from a physician means "Take!" It is an instruction to the patient. >>(My dad grew up referring to "recipes" as "receipts". >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Good question. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >So the Rx symbol on a prescription from a physician means "Take!" It is an >instruction to the patient. No, it is not. It is an instruction to the pharmacist, dating back to the days when most medications were compounded by the pharmacist rather than delivered pre-formed by a manufacturer. There are actually three parts to a prescription, of which the ingredient list is only the first. There is another part which constitutes instructions to the patient, traditionally labeled "Sig.", which the pharmacist translates from obscure Latin abbreviations like "q.d." into the patient's preferred language. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >> So the Rx symbol on a prescription from a physician means "Take!" It >> is an instruction to the patient. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > from obscure Latin abbreviations like "q.d." into the patient's > preferred language. Yes, but "Rx" still means "take". Most older recipes, whether for food or medicine, written in English begin with the word "Take". SignatureMike. >>>> My BrE mother used it regularly - but she had always been in one of >>>> the Professions Supplementary to Medicine. She'd write it - of >>>> course - as Rx. >>> >>> "Receipt", of course. Which, coming from "Recipe" is all that it >>> is. > "Receipt" and "recipe" have a common origin in the Latin "recipere" to > receive. [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > So the Rx symbol on a prescription from a physician means "Take!" It > is an instruction to the patient. Thanks for this exhaustive research, Peter. For my own purposes, I parallel "deceit, conceit, receipt" with deception, conception, and reception, except for the loss of the "p" in the others. But "recipe" isn't really conducive to a clear trail without the etymology. So I looked it up, yeah these many years ago. >>> (My dad grew up referring to "recipes" as "receipts". >> So the Rx symbol on a prescription from a physician means "Take!" It >> is an instruction to the patient. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >reception, except for the loss of the "p" in the others. But "recipe" >isn't really conducive to a clear trail without the etymology. But, take note of Garrett's comment that Rx is an instruction to the pharmacist. >So I looked it up, yeah these many years ago. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> So the Rx symbol on a prescription from a physician means "Take!" It >>> is an instruction to the patient. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > But, take note of Garrett's comment that Rx is an instruction to the > pharmacist. I think that's where I asked my question about whether it's an order or a recipe. I understand it as an imperative, but it is really kind of a permission from the physician to the pharmacist to make such a preparation for the particular carrier (patient) of the paper. With an ongoing account, there is no question of payment. Of course, nowadays, I never see the paper, even with changes in the prescription, because it is all handled over the telephone. And even then, I don't know if the physician's clerks fill in an online form or just voice the info to the pharmacy. I know how I think it should be handled, but there we are. >> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the Professions Supplementary to Medicine. She'd write it - of > course - as Rx. On the diabetic groups I frequent, most Americans use the word "scrip". SignatureRay UK >> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Professions Supplementary to Medicine. She'd write it - of course - as >Rx. Yes, Rx goes way back as shorthand for "prescription". Why did anyone feel the need, I wonder, for the ugly shortening, "script", when we already had Rx in the language? I don't know why it was chosen, but I find Rx quite elegant for some reason. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, > >> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > already had Rx in the language? I don't know why it was chosen, but I > find Rx quite elegant for some reason. Because no-one actually /says/ Rx. They /say/ scrip. Or script. Or pruhscripshun. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> >> How widespread is this horrible, if I'm not being too prissy, >> >> abbreviation, "script", for prescription? I've never noticed it [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Because no-one actually /says/ Rx. They /say/ scrip. Or script. Or > pruhscripshun. I'm sure you all know this, but as no-one has mentioned it so far, Rx is conventially written with the x formed by crossing the leg of the R. It exists as unicode character 211E (which is called "PRESCRIPTION TAKE") and looks like this: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/211e/index.htm SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 02:32:31 +0000 (UTC), woll...@bimajority.org > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > U.S.) Shortened form of prescription, esp one for narcotic drugs." Do > many Americans use "script" this way or in the way Garrett used it? The majority, I think. However, I've never heard it adjectivally--no "scrip(t) drug" or "It's non-scrip(t)". Cf. Garrett's "prescription pad". Google finds 4880 hits on "scrip drug", though, so it's probably just a matter of time. -- Jerry Friedman >> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 02:32:31 +0000 (UTC), woll...@bimajority.org >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >The majority, I think. Even in the Washington to New York to Boston corridor, where people tend to talk properly? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:41:04 -0800 (PST), "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Even in the Washington to New York to Boston corridor, Can't tell you--I've spent a total of maybe a day there since 1993. > where people tend to talk properly? That wasn't my experience when I was going to college there, but you've spent much more time there than I have. -- Jerry Friedman >> On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:41:04 -0800 (PST), "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >That wasn't my experience when I was going to college there, but >you've spent much more time there than I have. The Washington, D.C. area is interesting from a language standpoint, for people from all over the country come and go as administrations change, plus there are a number of military people in the area who rotate from one assignment to another, independently of an administration. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland <snip> >In Austria, too, generic drugs are being pushed by the health insurance >bodies and the government as a means of saving health costs. I'm not >up-to-date on how far this is compulsory, but it's meeting with the usual >resistance from some doctors and their representatives -- "Generic drugs >are not the same!" (in other words "How will I get to dive in the Red Sea >if XYZ Pharma stops organising its further training seminars down there?") Austria and America have more in common, I see, than having the same initial and final letters. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Austria and America have more in common, I see, than having the same >initial and final letters. And, of course, Australia. An axis of As? SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. [...] >>Austria and America have more in common, I see, than having the same >>initial and final letters. > > And, of course, Australia. An axis of As? Here are the rest of the rogue states (courtesy of Wiki***ia): Albania Algeria Andorra Angola Antigua and Barbuda Argentina Armenia SignatureLes (BrE) >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Argentina >Armenia Yehbut, do generic drugs also meet with resistance from doctors and their lobby groups in these countries? I doubt if any medical lobby group is half as powerful, well-funded, pervasive or detrimental to the needs of patients in the middle to lower income brackets as the American Medical Association: the infamous AMA, which assures that American drugs are vastly overpriced compared to their European counterparts, that American doctors are vastly overpaid and that the typical American hospital room costs an arm and a leg. More targets for Mr Obama, once he gets the time. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > vastly overpaid and that the typical American hospital room costs an > arm and a leg. More targets for Mr Obama, once he gets the time. Well, I think he has pointed some BB guns at that target. (Were howitzers, until the economy pooped.) But, no fear. Obamanation is on the move. And, with regard to Leslie's post, our rogue states of Alaska and Alabama (and California, with wild-assed Azusa) will be duking it out to determine where all the socialist money will go. >>[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >vastly overpaid and that the typical American hospital room costs an >arm and a leg. More targets for Mr Obama, once he gets the time. In Australia, the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme acts as one big customer and uses its buying power to negotiate lower prices with the manufacturers. They are then available to the populace at the lower price. Non PBS approved drugs are way more expensive so if you want to shift the substance, you get it accepted by the Scheme. When our Government negotiated a free trade agreement with the US, this was a major sticking point. The US wanted to get rid of this scheme but I think we held out. Generic drugs are available slightly cheaper. I know the generic version of Keflex is produced on the same production line as the more expensive name brand. They are identical. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. Leslie Danks filted: >Richard Bollard wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Argentina >Armenia Depending upon how one interprets "having the same initial and final letters", one could also admit: St Kitts and Nevis St Vincent and the Grenadines (great name for a doo-wop group, that) Seychelles Solomon Islands ....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Leslie Danks filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > ....r Czech Republic Central African Republic That's all, folks! >> [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >buy it over the Internet and self-medicate. I think my mother has hers >checked--in the hospital--every month. ObAUE: I won't ask how careful hospitals are, since that isn't an English point, but how "constant" is once a month? >Of course, Warfarin may simply be used as an example in an ad targeted >more widely at www drug sales. Under British conditions, of course, >there's less often an incentive to buy prescription drugs unofficially: >younger and older patients get them free of charge on the NHS, and >proper prescribing and follow-up may be thought worth having for most of >the rest. Most Americans have to pay for their drugs and drugs tend to be unduly expensive there, partially because of the big drug lobby groups. Do you think the British and Irish populations are over-medicated because they don't have to pay for their drugs? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:07:23 -0000, "Mike Lyle" [...] >> I'd lose those scare quotes. The dosage needs careful and constant >> monitoring, and in some cases frequent adjustment: you'd be insane to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ObAUE: I won't ask how careful hospitals are, since that isn't an > English point, but how "constant" is once a month? Hmm. Interesting point, now you draw my attention to it. I suspect it's probably another relative term, but "regular" may be better... >> Of course, Warfarin may simply be used as an example in an ad >> targeted more widely at www drug sales. Under British conditions, of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > you think the British and Irish populations are over-medicated because > they don't have to pay for their drugs? My impression is that some drugs /are/ over-prescribed here, but that on the whole the non-NHS systems seem to result in over-treatment. I believe British and Irish doctors are pretty responsible when it comes to spending public money, and there are some limiting rules. SignatureMike. >> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:07:23 -0000, "Mike Lyle" >[...] [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >believe British and Irish doctors are pretty responsible when it comes >to spending public money, and there are some limiting rules. It was announced today that cancer patients, regardless of age, would get free prescriptions from April 1, and, eventually, all patients with long-term medical conditions would also get their treatment free. "Around 60 per cent of the English population do not pay prescription charges because of their age or because they are on income support, and more than eight or ten medicines are prescribed for free." (Daily Telegraph: is it eight or ten?) "In England, each prescription item costs £7.10 - although patients needing regular courses can pay a flat rate of £102.50 for a year's supply. Charges raise over £400m for the NHS, but a range of exemptions are already in place meaning just 12% of prescriptions are currently paid for." (BBC: 20% or 12%?) SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >It was announced today that cancer patients, regardless of age, would >get free prescriptions from April 1, and, eventually, all patients [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >and more than eight or ten medicines are prescribed for free." (Daily >Telegraph: is it eight or ten?) Typo. "eight of ten" >"In England, each prescription item costs £7.10 - although patients >needing regular courses can pay a flat rate of £102.50 for a year's >supply. Charges raise over £400m for the NHS, but a range of >exemptions are already in place meaning just 12% of prescriptions are >currently paid for." (BBC: 20% or 12%?) The BBC report below does not (any longer?) have that wording: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7838234.stm SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>It was announced today that cancer patients, regardless of age, would >>get free prescriptions from April 1, and, eventually, all patients [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >The BBC report below does not (any longer?) have that wording: >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7838234.stm That's changed pretty quickly. I googled just before I posted. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>I'd lose those scare quotes. The dosage needs careful and constant >>monitoring, and in some cases frequent adjustment: you'd be insane to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ObAUE: I won't ask how careful hospitals are, since that isn't an > English point, but how "constant" is once a month? To me, that's fairly constant in the context of prescription meds. I've got one prescription now that hasn't been changed on two years, and back when Dimetapp was prescription rather than OTC, I had an open-ended scrip for it that went 12 years with the "monitoring" consisting of once a year the doctor asking, "So, you still having those sinus attacks?" and me saying "Yes," and him saying, "Well, you know when you need to take it." On the other hand, my husband's endocrinologist adjusts his insulin dosage every four months or so. So, every 30 days is "constant". >>>I'd lose those scare quotes. The dosage needs careful and constant >>>monitoring, and in some cases frequent adjustment: you'd be insane to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >the other hand, my husband's endocrinologist adjusts his insulin dosage >every four months or so. So, every 30 days is "constant". I agree with Mike when he says "regular" would be a better choice. "Constant" has a prescribed mathematical definition. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>I'd lose those scare quotes. The dosage needs careful and constant >>>>monitoring, and in some cases frequent adjustment: you'd be insane [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I agree with Mike when he says "regular" would be a better choice. > "Constant" has a prescribed mathematical definition. The mathematical meaning only applies when it's being used in a mathematical context. Or are you saying that "My neighbor's dog barks constantly" is wrong? adjective 1. not changing or varying; uniform; regular; invariable: All conditions during the three experiments were constant. 2. continuing without pause or letup; unceasing: constant noise. 3. regularly recurrent; continual; persistent: He found it impossible to work with constant interruption. 4. faithful; unswerving in love, devotion, etc.: a constant lover. 5. steadfast; firm in mind or purpose; resolute. 6. Obsolete. certain; confident. –noun 7. something that does not or cannot change or vary. 8. Physics. a number expressing a property, quantity, or relation that remains unchanged under specified conditions. 9. Mathematics. a quantity assumed to be unchanged throughout a given discussion. Numbers 1 and 3 under "adjective" certainly appear to cover Mike's use. He wasn't using it as a noun, which is where the matematical sense comes in. >>>>>I'd lose those scare quotes. The dosage needs careful and constant >>>>>monitoring, and in some cases frequent adjustment: you'd be insane [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >mathematical context. Or are you saying that "My neighbor's dog barks >constantly" is wrong? Technically, yes, for all dogs sleep, but I wasn't talking about dogs and if we were, there is nothing wrong with saying that, as you well know. Instead, I said "regular" is sometimes the better choice when referring to dosages. <snip> SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin> Instead of rat poison, my doctor uses Aspirin and Plavix to thin my blood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clopidogrel SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland [...] > Instead of rat poison, my doctor uses Aspirin and Plavix to thin my > blood: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clopidogrel Pet peeve: "thin the blood" Anti-coagulants, of whatever type, do not "thin the blood" but inhibit the clotting process. Other things being equal, the blood from someone on anti-coagulant therapy is no thinner than the blood from someone not on anti-coagulant therapy. It just clots more slowly, the difference depending on the degree of medication. Here (and I presume elsewhere), patients on anti-coagulant therapy carry a card indicating the fact and giving details of the type and quantity of anti-coagulant taken. This ensures that in the event of serious injury they can be given the right antidote to prevent them from bleeding to death. SignatureLes (BrE) >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >event of serious injury they can be given the right antidote to prevent >them from bleeding to death. I had a blood test for clotting as my dentist thought my blood might be clotting too quickly. The guy at the lab doing the test rang me at home that night and with rather a worried tone asked me if I was on warfarin. He was clearly relieved when I said I wasn't. Apparently my clotting was normal and this was a worry to him iff I was on an anti-coagulant. Normally these people are completely invisible and have no contact with the patient. It was quite a surprise to hear from one. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Pet peeve: "thin the blood" Complete drift, but my pet peeve in this usage is when people talk about their blood thinning after they move to a warmer clime. It's heard a lot in Florida, when someone says they now get cold easier because their blood has thinned since they moved to Florida. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Leslie Danks wrote: >>> Instead of rat poison, my doctor uses Aspirin and Plavix to thin my >>> blood: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > heard a lot in Florida, when someone says they now get cold easier > because their blood has thinned since they moved to Florida. Well, as long as it doesn't make your blood run cold ... SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> Leslie Danks wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Well, as long as it doesn't make your blood run cold ... Or make your blood boil. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >heard a lot in Florida, when someone says they now get cold easier >because their blood has thinned since they moved to Florida. While growing up, I heard that frequently in the Washington, D.C. area, for we met new people from the north, frequently. What a load of crap, I'd say to myself. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >event of serious injury they can be given the right antidote to prevent >them from bleeding to death. I used the phrase "thin the blood" carefully. These agents, at least in the dosages I am taking, change the colour and the consistency of the blood. I know what the stuff looked like and what it looks like now. Sure, these agents are anti-coagulants, but they do what I'm saying, as well. That is immediately obvious from looking at the fluid and by watching it flow, both of which are things I have a chance to do frequently, razor and other cuts heal so slowly. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > and by watching it flow, both of which are things I have a chance to > do frequently, razor and other cuts heal so slowly. Coagulation is initiated by the injury. The difference you observe is the difference between normal blood which has started to coagulate and anti-coagulated blood, which has not. The heart and other organs will have evolved to function efficiently with blood of a certain viscosity; literally thinning it down would (IMO) be a Bad Thing. SignatureLes (BrE) >>>[...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >evolved to function efficiently with blood of a certain viscosity; >literally thinning it down would (IMO) be a Bad Thing. I'm no going to argue the point since I'm no doctor, but I have a fairly good understanding of what the medication I take does. Read the following if you're interested; Plavix and aspirin are what my doctors prescribed after my stroke: http://www.plavix.com/clopidogrel/blood-clots.aspx SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland [...] >>> I used the phrase "thin the blood" carefully. These agents, at least >>> in the dosages I am taking, change the colour and the consistency of [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > http://www.plavix.com/clopidogrel/blood-clots.aspx In that case, you and I both know that anti-coagulants inhibit platelets from adhering together to start the formation of a blood clot. My point in this thread is not to argue details of human biochemistry but to object to the misuse of the term "thinning the blood" (and "blood thinners", which is also widely used). "Thinning" a liquid medium normally means adding more of the solvent or carrying agent. Oil paints are thinned by adding turpentine (WIWAL, at least) or a different solvent or solvent mixture, a.k.a. "thinners". Water based paints and emulsions can be thinned by adding water. Blood consists of water containing many different substances, some dissolved, some (e.g. platelets) in suspension. If you wanted to thin it, you could inject water (better, saline solution) into a vein (as is done to save people severely dehydrated as a result of disease or chasing mad dogs). Anti-coagulants do not act in this way. Anti-coagulants act by preventing platelets from clumping together in response to injury or other stimuli -- in other words, anti-coagulants do not thin the blood, but maintain its status quo in the face if certain types of stress. Calling this process "thinning the blood" is a crime against the English language. I have nothing against words having more than one meaning when there is no danger of confusion (the word "r***" springs to mind); but in this case, using "thinning" is thoroughly misleading. No doubt it started off as a means of enabling patients to picture what was going on, and was readily accepted because _everybody knows_ that "thick" liquids are more likely to solidify than "thin" liquids. The biggest irony of all is that if platelets do clump together and form clots, and assuming the laws of physics apply, the remaining blood is thinner than it was before. Here endeth the rant. SignatureLes (BrE) >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > >Here endeth the rant. I can understand what you're saying but let me add that not only does my blood look strange to me, in that the colour is wrong and it flows far too easily once I've cut myself shaving, which would indicate a viscosity change, at least to me, both doctors and nurses in the facility I'm in call Plavix and aspirin "blood thinners". Are they wrong, too? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:09:35 +0100, Leslie Danks <leslie.danks@aon.at> > ranted about "blood thinners". [...] > I can understand what you're saying but let me add that not only does > my blood look strange to me, in that the colour is wrong and it flows > far too easily once I've cut myself shaving, Far too easily compared to what? It flows much more easily because it is not starting to clot -- for example lots of small capillaries remain open, which would be rapidly closed if the clotting process was operating normally instead of being inhibited by the drugs you take. > which would indicate a > viscosity change, at least to me, A plausible interpretation, but wrong. There, indeed, are drugs that reduce the viscosity of blood, but these are not anti-coagulants: <http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Blood-Viscosity+Reducing+Drugs> <http://tinyurl.com/d6dxss> [quote] Blood-viscosity reducing drugs are medicines that improve blood flow by making the blood less viscous (sticky). Purpose The main use of blood-viscosity reducing drugs is to relieve painful leg cramps caused by poor circulation, a condition called intermittent claudication. [...] Examples of blood-viscosity reducing drugs are pentoxifylline (Trental) and oxypentifylline. [...] Among the drugs that may interact with blood-viscosity reducing drugs are: * anticoagulants such as warfarin (Coumadin)(also called blood thinners or clot inhibitors) [endquote] > both doctors and nurses in the > facility I'm in call Plavix and aspirin "blood thinners". Are they > wrong, too? In my (possibly pedantic) opinion, yes [1]: they and anyone else referring to anti-coagulants as "blood thinners" are using a misnomer. I might be considered impertinent for criticising members of the medical profession, but would you ask a linguist to remove your appendix? [1] "yes" in the sense of the proper use of words; if everyone makes the same mistake, it is presumably no longer wrong in the sense of meaningful communication and everyday usage. SignatureLes (BrE) ... I might be > considered impertinent for criticising members of the medical profession, > but would you ask a linguist to remove your appendix? Maybe an editor. -- Jerry Friedman <snip> >> both doctors and nurses in the >> facility I'm in call Plavix and aspirin "blood thinners". Are they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >considered impertinent for criticising members of the medical profession, >but would you ask a linguist to remove your appendix? Criticize away. I won't call them "blood thinners" anymore and if I catch a nurse, who should know better, calling them that in future, I'll nail her. Thank you for the information, Les, and I'm sorry if I appeared to be dense at first. >[1] "yes" in the sense of the proper use of words; if everyone makes the >same mistake, it is presumably no longer wrong in the sense of meaningful >communication and everyday usage. Since we're talking about a medicine that can impact a life, I think accuracy must take precedence over popular usage. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > catch a nurse, who should know better, calling them that in future, > I'll nail her. I wish you luck, Chuck. I hope they don't reward your helpfulness with short rations. > Thank you for the information, Les, and I'm sorry if I > appeared to be dense at first. Since I appeared to be a lone prophet peeing upwind in the wilderness, your scepticism was only reasonable. If you need a few references, try googling on {"blood thinners" misnomer}. >>[1] "yes" in the sense of the proper use of words; if everyone makes the >>same mistake, it is presumably no longer wrong in the sense of meaningful >>communication and everyday usage. > > Since we're talking about a medicine that can impact a life, I think > accuracy must take precedence over popular usage. Indeed. SignatureLes (BrE) >I won't call them "blood thinners" anymore and if I >catch a nurse, who should know better, calling them that in future, >I'll nail her. <chuckle> http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/n.htm nail Verb. 1. To have sexual intercourse with. E.g."Did you nail that girl you were all over in the club last night?" 2. To seduce. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Criticize away. I won't call them "blood thinners" anymore and if I >catch a nurse, who should know better, calling them that in future, >I'll nail her. Does the phrase arouse you? Or, does "nail her" have some different meaning in Dublin than it does here in the good old US of A? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>Criticize away. I won't call them "blood thinners" anymore and if I >>catch a nurse, who should know better, calling them that in future, >>I'll nail her. > >Does the phrase arouse you? Or, does "nail her" have some different >meaning in Dublin than it does here in the good old US of A? Peter got it, but I have no idea whether the typical Dub would. Guessing, I doubt it. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > once I've cut myself shaving Nothing to do with the main thrust of your post, but this made me realize that I haven't cut myself shaving in so long that I can barely remember doing it. It was difficult to do with twin-blade razors, the triple+ ones they have now make it near impossible. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> once I've cut myself shaving > >Nothing to do with the main thrust of your post, but this made me >realize that I haven't cut myself shaving in so long that I can barely >remember doing it. It was difficult to do with twin-blade razors, the >triple+ ones they have now make it near impossible. I am glad you raised this. I've found that the ones with four blades clog up easily, and I'm not so keen on the triple ones either. I've found that the twin-blades last longest, but I have very fine hair and only need to shave every couple of days. Back in the late 90s when I spent a long time in hospital, my girlfriend (as she was then, now SWMBO) found that she was bringing a new packet of twin-blades to the hospital every few days because the nurses thought they were the single-use disposables that they used. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > >> once I've cut myself shaving > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > found that the twin-blades last longest, but I have very fine hair and > only need to shave every couple of days. I have a spot in my neck that's a bit tough to get shaved closely. I had the problem with the twin blades of kind of scraping the skin in that region. I don't have nearly as much problem with the higher cardinality razors. They are significantly more expensive though. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >> >> once I've cut myself shaving >> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >that region. I don't have nearly as much problem with the higher >cardinality razors. They are significantly more expensive though. I'm saddled with the combination of a tough beard and tender skin, but I find that twin-blades work fine. I only use a razor for a couple of days before replacing it with a new one, though. If I didn't wear a beard, a blade would last for only a single shaving, I am sure. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> once I've cut myself shaving > >Nothing to do with the main thrust of your post, but this made me >realize that I haven't cut myself shaving in so long that I can barely >remember doing it. It was difficult to do with twin-blade razors, the >triple+ ones they have now make it near impossible. I thought much the same, but that was before I started taking this damn Plavix stuff. Now, one little cut and I have to baby it for hours. A big cut and I need to wear a bandage for days. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland ... > Talking of horrible sights, at the cinema yesterday we saw an advert > warning about medicines purchased over the internet, which apparently > can contain rat poison. It featured a man swallowing a pill and then > pulling a rat out of his mouth, tail first. It was so shockingly far > from the normal cinema advert that I thought for a moment that it might > have been a spoof. Was the rat dead? If you had a live rat in your GI tract and wanted to kill it... (Yes, Les probably has the explanation.) -- Jerry Friedman >>> TOF filted: >>>> Indeed, and although there's nothing particularly eccentric about "a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Medusa, shirley? Our old friend Shirley, too? >Talking of horrible sights, at the cinema yesterday we saw an advert >warning about medicines purchased over the internet, which apparently >can contain rat poison. It featured a man swallowing a pill and then >pulling a rat out of his mouth, tail first. It was so shockingly far >from the normal cinema advert that I thought for a moment that it might >have been a spoof. Do you now think it wasn't? BTW, you Economisted "Internet". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >>Say, what *is* the non-metaphorical meaning of "plethora", anyway?...I'm in the >>habit of telling people it's Greek for "shitload"....r > >That's because Plethora, or somebody, had a bunch of snakes for hair. There's someone named "Plethora" mentioned in this Rod McKuen spoof, but the accent's on the penultimate: http://media.putfile.com/In-Someones-Sneakers I think the speaker is Harry Shearer....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >I think the speaker is Harry Shearer....r Someone must have seen me coming, for I got a whole lot of nothing when clicking on the above. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland TOF <Fran.Beta@gmail.com> wrote in news:55609bca-cf4b-4cef-908c- 08eddeae272d@i24g2000prf.googlegroups.com: > The passage below seems to indicate it meaning something like > "latitude" "goodwill" "freedome to use his discretion" but in AusE, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > solve the intractable Middle East peace process, along with a plethora > of other mammoth challenges. No, it sounds odd to this American. As you say, to give someone a "wide berth" is to avoid them, to stay well clear of them. I'm not sure that I would even take "wide berth" as "stay out of the way of"; that's "to not interfere, to allow them to work or progress unimpeded." >TOF <Fran.Beta@gmail.com> wrote in news:55609bca-cf4b-4cef-908c- >08eddeae272d@i24g2000prf.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >would even take "wide berth" as "stay out of the way of"; that's "to not >interfere, to allow them to work or progress unimpeded." If a ship's captain is giving a neighbouring ship a wide berth, he is, by definition, staying well clear of her. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland |
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