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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009"on basis of" or "on the basis of"
Hi native speakers. I had an argument with a fellow translator on whether this sentence is correct or not [i]Translation fees are calculated on basis of the source language wherever possible. [/i] I argued that in this sentence "on the basis of" should be written. Please comment on this. Thank you > Hi native speakers. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Please comment on this. "On the basis of" is idiomatic English; "on basis of" is not.  SignatureLes (BrE) > I argued that in this sentence "on the basis of" should be written. In published books, you have a 5 to 1 advantage: 3,270 on "calculated on the basis of the " http://books.google.com/books?q=%22calculated+on+the+basis+of+the+%22&btnG=Searc h+Books 624 on "calculated on basis of the " http://books.google.com/books?q=%22calculated+on+basis+of+the+%22&btnG=Search+Books Your version is better, IMO. Marius Hancu >Hi native speakers. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I argued that in this sentence "on the basis of" should be written. Szervusz, I much prefer your version, which seems to me like the normal British English way of saying this. Maybe Americans find it easier to accept "on basis of"? James >>Hi native speakers. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Maybe Americans find it easier to accept "on basis of"? Not this American, but I might find "based on the source language" easier to follow. When it comes to paragraphs explaining fees, though, I'd pay close enough attention to figure out any version. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>Hi native speakers. >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Not this American Yet another cause for hope on this auspicious day. You have earned yourself a brand-new Tom Swifty: "I've just spotted DSH, the scion of a rear admiral," said Tom with hindsight. James >>>>Hi native speakers. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >"I've just spotted DSH, the scion of a rear admiral," >said Tom with hindsight. When does a Pelican change into a Hind?," Tom asked straitly. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida The New York Times, which is more demanding, is even more categorical in your favor: I made the search at Google http://www.google.com parameterized for the New York Times site, thus for: site:nytimes.com "calculated on the basis of the " (quotation marks are important to group up terms) The results are: 102 from nytimes.com for "calculated on the basis of the " http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Anytimes.com+%22calculated+on+the+bas is+of+the+%22&btnG=Search 0 from nytimes.com for "calculated on basis of the " http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Anytimes.com+%22calculated+on+basis+o f+the+%22&btnG=Search This leaves no question in my mind yours is the better answer. Marius Hancu >The New York Times, which is more demanding, is even more categorical >in your favor: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >This leaves no question in my mind yours is the better answer. I agree, but out of interest I checked the shorter phrase "on basis of" and got 1,430 hits at the New York Times site -- for something I always thought was a mistake that foreigners make! (Some of those hits may come from headlines.) Americans also say "in light of" where I would say "in the light of". James I also find on Google 100 times more frequency for my favourite > I also find on Google 100 times more frequency for my favourite I do NOT recomend the use of **plain** Google for such comparisons, as there tare too many uneducated or non-native speakers there. Use Google Books or Google OVER the New York Times or the BBC site (as I indicated) in order to get the feel of the native speakers. Marius Hancu > Hi native speakers. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Please comment on this. My comment is that it is a fundamental principle that translation for publication must be done only by a native speaker of the target language. SignatureMike. >> Hi native speakers. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >publication must be done only by a native speaker of the target >language. This does not guarantee good results as we have seen recently in Marius Hancu's postings of extracts from _The Magic Mountain_, by Thomas Mann, translated by Helen Tracy Lowe-Porter. I see from the Wikipedia article on the translator that: In her essay "On Translating Thomas Mann", Lowe-Porter said it is not so important that the translator be a great scholar of the foreign language, as few literary practitioners are really and truly bilingual, but that it is very important indeed that he/she be a master of the resources and subtleties of his/her own. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._T._Lowe-Porter That is a touch ironic in view of some of the weirdnesses of her English. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Hi native speakers. >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > That is a touch ironic in view of some of the weirdnesses of her > English. How much greater, then, is the risk for a non-native! SignatureMike. >hhgygy@gmail.com wrote: >> Hi native speakers. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >publication must be done only by a native speaker of the target >language. Yabbut, aren't we simply looking at the publication of the translators' fee scales, for the benefit of the punters? As a buyer of translation services myself, and well knowing that translation fees are often calculated either on the word count or on lineage, it does make a difference to know which language the fee is to be based on. All too often it is the target language, which is a bugger, because it can't be calculated by me the customer in advance. SignaturePaul [...] > Yabbut, aren't we simply looking at the publication of the translators' > fee scales, for the benefit of the punters? As a buyer of translation [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > often it is the target language, which is a bugger, because it can't be > calculated by me the customer in advance. All the agencies I've ever worked for in Austria have used the target language for calculating the fee, generally based on a standard line of "55 keystrokes". This is also what I do myself mostly. In my experience of translating (exclusively) from German into English, the English text is usually between 0% and 10% shorter. If that sort of difference is a big deal, why not ask for a fixed-price quotation? SignatureLes (BrE) >Paul Wolff wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >usually between 0% and 10% shorter. If that sort of difference is a big >deal, why not ask for a fixed-price quotation? I shrug it off. I know I said it was a bugger, but that's more an expression of irritation than of any insoluble problem. I simply don't like being quoted a price based on something I can't measure until afterwards, when it could just as easily be based on something I can measure before I place the order. It's even worse for translation into non-alphabetic languages where quoted costs are based on the number of characters in the target language. But at least this can be said: if all translators quote based on the same charging system, their relative costs can easily be gauged. SignaturePaul > [ ... ] > In my experience of > translating (exclusively) from German into English, the English text is > usually between 0% and 10% shorter. I'd be very surprised to see 0%, and fairly surprised to see 10% for a text of significant length. When I look at multilingual information it seems to me that the English version is virtually always the shortest, usually quite noticeably. Signatureathel >> [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > seems to me that the English version is virtually always the shortest, > usually quite noticeably. The difference depends on the type of text. Legal texts, for example, normally approach 0%. It also depends on the style of the original and the translator's personal style. The range I gave does not claim to be authoritatively applicable to everything, but is the result of counting a representative number of things I have translated over the years. SignatureLes (BrE) >> Leslie Danks said: >>> In my experience of >>> translating (exclusively) from German into English, the English [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > counting a representative number of things I have translated over the > years. Even more brevity would result when translating English to a heavily inflected article-less language (Latvian, for instance). SignatureSkitt (AmE) >Leslie Danks wrote: >>> Leslie Danks said: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Even more brevity would result when translating English to a heavily >inflected article-less language (Latvian, for instance). Even more brevity would result when translating English to a heavily inflected article-less language (Latin, for instance). There, that's even briefer, by two letters. Not that I am attempting to compare the Latin and Latvian languages, brevity-wise; just their respective names. As far as English, French and German are concerned, I've posted a link like this before, which has parallel texts in the three languages, on technico-legal subject matter: <http://www.european-patent-office.org/epo/pubs/oj008/11_08/11_5238.pdf> <http://tinyurl.com/atmnco> English is consistently the least verbose of the three languages in that journal. No-one here need feel obliged actually to understand what that text is on about. I can interpret for a fee, though such useful snippets as a definition of natural dehydration in the realm of tomatoes can be picked up with little technical knowledge. SignaturePaul >>> Leslie Danks said: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Even more brevity would result when translating English to a heavily >inflected article-less language (Latvian, for instance). Or to a language with lengthier, more descriptive nouns, such as German, I would think. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:19:38 -0800, "Skitt" > <skitt99@comcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > such as > German, I would think. German? I remember that Sherlock Holmes solved a case because he noticed that a note was written by a German. He said that the Germans are so impolite to their verbs that they put then behind the sentences. :-) >> On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:19:38 -0800, "Skitt" >> <skitt99@comcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >the Germans are so impolite to their verbs that they put then >behind the sentences. :-) Do you or anyone remember the case? I enjoy Holmes. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:19:38 -0800, "Skitt" >>> <skitt99@comcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> >Do you or anyone remember the case? I enjoy Holmes. A Scandal in Bohemia: "Precisely. And the man who wrote the note is a German. Do you note the peculiar construction of the sentence -- 'This account of you we have from all quarters received.' A Frenchman or Russian could not have written that. It is the German who is so uncourteous to his verbs." James [...] > A Scandal in Bohemia: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Russian could not have written that. It is the German who is so > uncourteous to his verbs." If the German had used German word order throughout he would have written "This account of you have we from all quarters received." SignatureLes (BrE) >>>> On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:19:38 -0800, "Skitt" >>>> <skitt99@comcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >Russian could not have written that. It is the German who is so >uncourteous to his verbs." Ah, yes. I'm beginning to remember it. One of the Holmes TV series must have aired the story, for I don't recall reading it. Thank you, James. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >German? I remember that Sherlock Holmes solved a case because > >he noticed that a note was written by a German. He said that > >the Germans are so impolite to their verbs that they put then > >behind the sentences. :-) > > > Do you or anyone remember the case? I enjoy Holmes. A Scandal in Bohemia, I believe. >> >German? I remember that Sherlock Holmes solved a case because >> >he noticed that a note was written by a German. He said that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >A Scandal in Bohemia, I believe. You and James Hogg agree on that. Thank you. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >hhg...@gmail.com wrote: > >> Hi native speakers. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > services myself, and well knowing that translation fees are often > calculated either on the word count or on lineage, Ah. Not well knowing that, I was thinking the OP might be saying translations from Vietnamese cost more than translations from Tagalog, or something. (I didn't think you meant the fees were based on anyone's ancestry.) > it does make a > difference to know which language the fee is to be based on. All too > often it is the target language, which is a bugger, because it can't be > calculated by me the customer in advance. -- Jerry Friedman >On Jan 20, 1:49 pm, Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >(I didn't think you meant the fees were based on anyone's ancestry.) Lin(e)age, mil(e)age, both confuse me. I know ancestry is pronounced linny-age (crudely put). Oxford's NODE says linage was what I meant, as Jerry and all other thinking persons knew (I remembered to include 'other', there). SignaturePaul >> Hi native speakers. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > publication must be done only by a native speaker of the target > language. To be fair to the questioner, it isn't impossible that the translation is from English to something else, but on behalf of a customer whose contracts are written in English. Signatureathel |
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