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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009italic hand
Hi, I sent my American friends a handwritten letter in German, and they said they "struggled" with my "italic hand". Does this just mean they aren't used to script leaning to the right, or is it a humorous way of saying they couldn't decipher my scribble? I would appreciate your comments. Greetings, Ho > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I would appreciate your comments. Reply saying the letter was written on the walls of the Torre di Pisa :) (Italiensehensucht) > Hi, > I sent my American friends a handwritten letter in German, and they said > they "struggled" with my "italic hand". Does this just mean they aren't > used to script leaning to the right, or is it a humorous way of saying > they couldn't decipher my scribble? More than likely they meant the latter. When handwriting received more attention than it does today, many people could write in different styles and a "fine italic hand" was much admired. Today, only calligraphers devote the time and effort to learning it, and it is impossible to achieve with modern writing instruments such a ball-point pens. The italic hand is not especially ornate, but modern people are unlikely to know one style from another and so may apply the term to any kind of fancy writing, or in the present case, apply it ironically to a careless scribble. > I would appreciate your comments. > Greetings, > Ho  SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> usenet@larseighner.com 1 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term. Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't. [...] > When handwriting received more attention than it does today, many people > could write in different styles and a "fine italic hand" was much admired. > Today, only calligraphers devote the time and effort to learning it, and it > is impossible to achieve with modern writing instruments such a ball-point > pens. My first girlfriend's father was a calligrapher and he taught me to write with an italic hand, such that I've been able, over the years, to supplement my income with hand-written citations, certificates etc. You can write italic with a ball-point pen, but you don't get the graduation in thickness that you might want from a formal piece of writing. Will. >> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > More than likely they meant the latter. Yes, that's how I'd interpret it. > When handwriting received more attention than it does today, many people > could write in different styles and a "fine italic hand" was much admired. > Today, only calligraphers devote the time and effort to learning it, and it > is impossible to achieve with modern writing instruments such a ball-point > pens. Even with a proper nib it's not easy to achieve after years of scribbling with ballpoints. At the school I went to when I was 10 we weren't allowed to use ballpoints, but that was long ago, and difficult to enforce even then. My handwriting was indescribably awful until about that age, when it was taken in hand by a teacher who undertook to teach us all italic handwriting. In my case the effort was fairly successful. It's difficult to maintain, but if I concentrate I can still write (with a proper pen) in the style I was taught then. However, as the years go by it's increasingly difficult to buy fountain pens, and increasingly difficult to get calligraphic nibs for them if you find one at all. (For those of you who live close enough to Oxford to boink there, I recommend the shop on the High Street opposite the start of Long Wall Street.) In the past, if I asked for a calligraphic nib I was told rather snootily "you mean an italic nib", whereas if I asked for an italic nib I was told, equally snootily, "you mean a calligraphic nib". You can't win. One frustrating thing is that although calligraphic nibs for Parker pens are made in France (at least, they used to be, but my eyes are no longer acute enough to read what I think is the word FRANCE in extremely small letters on the last nib I bought), you can't actually buy them in France in any place that I've discovered. Signatureathel > One frustrating thing is that although calligraphic nibs for Parker > pens are made in France (at least, they used to be, but my eyes are no > longer acute enough to read what I think is the word FRANCE in > extremely small letters on the last nib I bought), you can't actually > buy them in France in any place that I've discovered. Mainly Waterman, isn't it? (And others like Mont Blanc in the expensive end of the shops?) Signaturehmmmm: sounds like the same DLL hell problem my cousin had. try deleting all DLLs in your Windows/system32 directory and see what happens. (Bryce Utting) >> One frustrating thing is that although calligraphic nibs for Parker >> pens are made in France (at least, they used to be, but my eyes are no [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Mainly Waterman, isn't it? (And others like Mont Blanc in the > expensive end of the shops?) They're made in France, certainly, but so are Parker. According to the man in the shop in Oxford, Mont Blank don't offer a calligraphic nib (though they used one for one of their advertisements not so long ago -- but maybe that's like Microsoft a few years ago getting an agency that worked solely on Macs to design their TV advertisements to show how wonderful one of their versions of Windows was). Signatureathel >On 2009-01-22 12:30:53 +0100, Lars Eighner <usenet@larseighner.com> said: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >weren't allowed to use ballpoints, but that was long ago, and difficult >to enforce even then. Ah, I remember it well. >My handwriting was indescribably awful until about that age, when it >was taken in hand by a teacher who undertook to teach us all italic [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >italic nib I was told, equally snootily, "you mean a calligraphic nib". >You can't win. Dunno about the detail, but in a mainstream establishment like WH Smith or John Lewis there is still a real choice of fountain pens. I use them for all my real writing. I've two Parkers (51 and Slimfold, of which the youngest is over 40 years old) and two much more recent Shaeffers on the go, currently. The schoolboy's cheapo fountain pen of yore was the Osmiroid, which did come with an italic nib, if you asked for it. >One frustrating thing is that although calligraphic nibs for Parker >pens are made in France (at least, they used to be, but my eyes are no >longer acute enough to read what I think is the word FRANCE in >extremely small letters on the last nib I bought), you can't actually >buy them in France in any place that I've discovered. De calligraphy non curat Gallia. SignaturePaul [...] > use them for all my real writing. I've two Parkers (51 and Slimfold, > of which the youngest is over 40 years old) and two much more recent > Shaeffers on the go, currently. I'm impressed: I gave up bothering with mine years ago. They kept drying out between "real" writings. I still have my nearly-sixty-year-old Conway Stewart, the first fountain pen I ever owned, in the pot of writing things before me now. The pocket clip has long gone. > The schoolboy's cheapo fountain pen of yore was the Osmiroid, which > did come with an italic nib, if you asked for it. In fact there was an almost bewildering array of options, including left-handers and even a music manuscript version which enabled you to do the blobs as well as the stalks. One of our Italicist masters had a black-ink thick-and-thin and a red-ink one for marking in the most elegant fashion. No, actually, at least two of them did, now I think about it. I have a tortoiseshell rocking blotter somewhere, but I'm not at all sure you can even buy blotting-paper any more. I must have chucked away or jumble-saled a proper big leather flat blotter with silver corners: what a shame. (Isn't it odd how US cops on TV call the desk book "the blotter"?) [...] SignatureMike. >Paul Wolff wrote: >[...] [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I'm impressed: More so if I'd written "younger", I'm sure. >I gave up bothering with mine years ago. They kept drying >out between "real" writings. I still have my nearly-sixty-year-old >Conway Stewart, the first fountain pen I ever owned, in the pot of >writing things before me now. The pocket clip has long gone. Now I am the one to be impressed. I took around 14/- (a puzzle for the youngsters) from my Post Office Savings account to buy my first fountain pen, a Conwy Stewart - all right, Conway Stewart - in, probably, 1953. Gone, but never to be forgotten. After that, Little Donny Osmiroid came and went. [...] Further deponent sayeth not. SignaturePaul <snip> >(Isn't it odd how US cops on TV call the desk book "the >blotter"?) Yes, it is. Want to fight about it? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > <snip> > >> (Isn't it odd how US cops on TV call the desk book "the >> blotter"?) > > Yes, it is. Want to fight about it? Gotcha! I knew you'd bite. Did a nasty old man hurted the feelings of the poor little policemen, then? SignatureMike. >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Gotcha! I knew you'd bite. Did a nasty old man hurted the feelings of >the poor little policemen, then? Gotcha, nobody. It is called the blotter because it is called the blotter. Rocks are called rocks, sticks are called sticks and so forth. What's to explain? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> <snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > blotter. Rocks are called rocks, sticks are called sticks and so > forth. What's to explain? The police "blotter" is a metonymic reference to the shift logs of the local constabulary. SignatureLew >>>> <snip> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >The police "blotter" is a metonymic reference to the shift logs of the local >constabulary. That does not explain, at least not to me, why cops call a charge sheet a "blotter". SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>>> <snip> >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >That does not explain, at least not to me, why cops call a charge >sheet a "blotter". An uninformed but moderately intelligent guess: In the days when charge sheets were written on using liquid ink a blotter (sheet of blotting paper) would be used dry the ink in the usual manner. It was customary to rest a sheet of paper to be written on on the blotter while writing on it. The blotter was where charges were written on charge sheets. Charge sheets were written *at* "the blotter". The name continued in use even after actual blotters were honorably retired. A modern desk blotter: http://www.classicluggage.com/DAHSmDeskBlotter1666.gif SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>> <snip> >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > A modern desk blotter: > http://www.classicluggage.com/DAHSmDeskBlotter1666.gif Our desk blotters frequently had calendars or appointment/memo pads. Those certainly got marked up with all kinds of jotted notes, phone numbers, etc. It was almost with panic that I tore off a page and desperately copied the useful data onto the new page beneath. >>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >It was almost with panic that I tore off a page and desperately copied >the useful data onto the new page beneath. I would say the term "police blotter" came from the mirror-image traces of previously written reports on the desk sargent's blotter in the days when fountain pens and stick pens were used. The blotter became, in a way, what it is today: a record of police reports. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > the days when fountain pens and stick pens were used. The blotter > became, in a way, what it is today: a record of police reports. Oh, yes. Impressions or reversed ink traces. >>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> A modern desk blotter: >> http://www.classicluggage.com/DAHSmDeskBlotter1666.gif Those are very handy all right and I've used them for miscellaneous notes many times, but I would think the police would use a more formal method for recording charges. I can see the possibilities for "at the blotter", as you say, but I thought TV cops have been heard to say they will "put" a charge "on the blotter". Maybe they quickly scratch new charges down on a desk blotter for later transference to the office record book. >Our desk blotters frequently had calendars or appointment/memo pads. >Those certainly got marked up with all kinds of jotted notes, phone >numbers, etc. >It was almost with panic that I tore off a page and desperately copied >the useful data onto the new page beneath. I felt the same way as I transferred information, Pat. Now that I have less information to record, most of my notes fit into a diary in my shirt pocket. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> An uninformed but moderately intelligent guess: >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > new charges down on a desk blotter for later transference to the > office record book. Tony's explanation fits. When written in ink, the paper could be flopped over to sop up the wet ink, and the reverse writing might still show. But blotters couldn't be replaced willy-nilly. Some really were of leather. Oh, and my paper ones frequently picked up coffee and pop rings, stray staples and paperclips, and lint, dandruff and rubber eraser dust. Filthy! >>Our desk blotters frequently had calendars or appointment/memo pads. >>Those certainly got marked up with all kinds of jotted notes, phone [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > less information to record, most of my notes fit into a diary in my > shirt pocket. Ditto. I am waiting until I can find a cheapo yearly pocket memo book so I can transfer data. Fortunately, the 2008 one had a January 2009 page. (I keep a card with family birthdays and phone #'s in my wallet.) > I can see the possibilities for "at the > blotter", as you say, but I thought TV cops have been heard to say > they will "put" a charge "on the blotter". Maybe they quickly scratch > new charges down on a desk blotter for later transference to the > office record book. Being wholly unfamiliar with police procedure, I am free to speculate that the charge sheet was literally placed "on the blotter" for signature by the desk sergeant. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >>>>>> <snip> >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >were written *at* "the blotter". The name continued in use even after actual >blotters were honorably retired. The OED has a quotation that antedates the attested US examples (from 1887) meaning: "A record of arrests and charges in a police office; a charge-sheet; also gen. a record-book or list." It is this: 'A term applied in counting-houses to a waste-book' (Craig 1847); also to a rough copy of a letter. Waste-book is defined as "A rough account-book (now little used in ordinary business) in which entries are made of all transactions (purchases, sales, receipts, payments, etc.) at the time of their occurrence, to be 'posted' afterwards into the more formal books of the set. " In Danish, of course, as Arne could tell you, the word "blotter" means something completely different, which could get you into the police blotter: http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blotter Click on the link in the language box to the left for the English version. James >>On 2009-01-22 12:30:53 +0100, Lars Eighner <usenet@larseighner.com> said: >> >>> When handwriting received more attention than it does today, many >>> people >>> could write in different styles and a "fine italic hand" was much >>> admired. <snip> >>Even with a proper nib it's not easy to achieve after years of scribbling >>with ballpoints. At the school I went to when I was 10 we weren't allowed [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > De calligraphy non curat Gallia. If you are prepared to venture beyond the high street, modern Japanese fountain pens are a pleasant surprise. Sailor "1911" pens are good, and the Namiki/Pilot "Falcon" even better. The latter gets my vote for the best pen I've ever used. >If you are prepared to venture beyond the high street, modern Japanese >fountain pens are a pleasant surprise. Sailor "1911" pens are good, and >the Namiki/Pilot "Falcon" even better. The latter gets my vote for the >best pen I've ever used. Interesting. I can easily be persuaded that the Japanese would make fine pens. I'll make a note. SignaturePaul >>If you are prepared to venture beyond the high street, modern Japanese >>fountain pens are a pleasant surprise. Sailor "1911" pens are good, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Interesting. I can easily be persuaded that the Japanese would make fine > pens. I'll make a note. Oh, they do make fine pens, Paul, in more ways than one. The nibs are a size narrower than European ones, so my favourite "M" Falcon is like a British "F". What they call "F" is like a needle, but still smooth. I would guess that the narrowness of line and marvellous performance both come from the challenge of writing Kanji characters. I'm glad mine only has to deal with English cursive. >> On 2009-01-22 12:30:53 +0100, Lars Eighner <usenet@larseighner.com> said: >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > which the youngest is over 40 years old) and two much more recent > Shaeffers on the go, currently. My pens don't last that long, because I press rather hard and they crack. My younger is six months old (from the last time I was in Oxford), and my older about four years old. I use the older one for red ink, but it doesn't really work, because once a pen has had black ink in it it remembers for ever. Even after about ten refills and endless washing under the tap the "red" still comes out reddish black. Signatureathel >On 2009-01-22 22:15:29 +0100, Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> said: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >in it it remembers for ever. Even after about ten refills and endless >washing under the tap the "red" still comes out reddish black. One of my Shaeffers, which is blue, is for red, but I haven't found a shop that sells red ink for a long time, so it is dry now. I should have called at that shop opposite Longwall St. last week when I walked past it twice, going to and from the Oxboink. Please remind me earlier next time. The last red bottle I had was Stephen's: There was a maid of the mountain glen, Seduced herself with a fountain pen. The pen it broke and the ink ran wild, And she gave birth to a blue-black child. They called the bastard Stephen, They called the bastard Stephen, They called the bastard Stephen, For that was the name of the ink. The other Shaeffer (the blue-and-black marbled one (if that's the word: it looks like enlarged granite-type crystals), for blue ink) keeps cracking up, but in the edge or rim of the cap. I've given up sending it back for free repair because of the time they keep it. SignaturePaul [...] > The other Shaeffer (the blue-and-black marbled one (if that's the > word: it looks like enlarged granite-type crystals), for blue ink) > keeps cracking up, but in the edge or rim of the cap. I've given up > sending it back for free repair because of the time they keep it. I have, after a manner of speaking, a Mont Blanc which is still in Switzerland after thirty years, having been kindly dropped in for repair by somebody who then forgot to pick it up again. SignatureMike. >Paul Wolff wrote: >[...] [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Switzerland after thirty years, having been kindly dropped in for repair >by somebody who then forgot to pick it up again. I think that you will find that Mont Blanc, in Switzerland, is and will remain a work in progress. (I could be wrong: something is nagging away in my head to say it trespasses upon the Franco-Italian border.) SignaturePaul >> Paul Wolff wrote: >> [...] [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > (I could be wrong: something is nagging away in my head to say it > trespasses upon the Franco-Italian border.) No part of Mont Blanc is in Switzerland. The summit is in France, and about half the mountain is in Itaaly. Signatureathel > I have, after a manner of speaking, a Mont Blanc which is still in > Switzerland after thirty years, having been kindly dropped in for > repair by somebody who then forgot to pick it up again. "It'll be ready Tuesday." Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Switzerland after thirty years, having been kindly dropped in for repair >by somebody who then forgot to pick it up again Was it anything like this one? http://cgi.ebay.ie/MONTBLANC-No-32-FOUNTAIN-PEN-GERMANY-BLACK-C1959_W0QQitemZ270 330833374QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home_Garden_PensPencils_WritingEquipment_SM?hash= item270330833374&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C3 9%3A1%7C240%3A1318 SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland [...] >> I have, after a manner of speaking, a Mont Blanc which is still in >> Switzerland after thirty years, having been kindly dropped in for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://cgi.ebay.ie/MONTBLANC-No-32-FOUNTAIN-PEN-GERMANY-BLACK-C1959_W0QQitemZ270 330833374QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home_Garden_PensPencils_WritingEquipment_SM?hash= item270330833374&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C3 9%3A1%7C240%3A1318 No. On 24 Jan 2009, Mike Lyle wrote > [...] >>> I have, after a manner of speaking, a Mont Blanc which is [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > No. Maybe you should check on www.penisland.com. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 24 Jan 2009, Mike Lyle wrote > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Maybe you should check on www.penisland.com. As an admirer of Freud, I might expect a female member to make the pen-penis association, but probably not a male one. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck Riggs filted: >>On 24 Jan 2009, Mike Lyle wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >As an admirer of Freud, I might expect a female member to make the >pen-penis association, but probably not a male one. You've never visited, then, the website of "Pen Island"?...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Chuck Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >You've never visited, then, the website of "Pen Island"?...r Assuming most people would read it as "Penis land", no. Pen island made little sense to me and, indeed, pens aren't what the site is about. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>Chuck Riggs filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > made little sense to me and, indeed, pens aren't what the site is > about. I think he meant www.penisland.net, which purports to be. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When you rewrite a compiler from 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |scratch, you sometimes fix things Palo Alto, CA 94304 |you didn't know were broken. | Larry Wall kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Mike wrote on Fri, 23 Jan 2009 22:59:55 -0000: > [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> cap. I've given up sending it back for free repair because >> of the time they keep it. > I have, after a manner of speaking, a Mont Blanc which is > still in Switzerland after thirty years, having been kindly > dropped in for repair by somebody who then forgot to pick it > up again. Sorry, I can't resist displaying my knowledge of geography (or just possibly my ignorance) but isn't Mont Blanc in France and Italy? Of course, you did say "in a manner of speaking". SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Mike wrote on Fri, 23 Jan 2009 22:59:55 -0000: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >possibly my ignorance) but isn't Mont Blanc in France and Italy? Of >course, you did say "in a manner of speaking". Even a resident of mighty Montgomery County might have trouble repairing a mountain. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > My pens don't last that long, because I press rather hard and they > crack. My younger is six months old (from the last time I was in > Oxford), and my older about four years old. I use the older one for red > ink, but it doesn't really work, because once a pen has had black ink > in it it remembers for ever. Even after about ten refills and endless > washing under the tap the "red" still comes out reddish black. Someone in a pen shop gave me this tip for unclogging fountain pens, and I'd expect it to help change colour too. Screw a converter to the empty position (piston down), fit it to the working end of the pen, dip the nip in cold water, and turn the converter to raise the piston and suck water up; repeat a few times. SignatureA: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? >>> On 2009-01-22 12:30:53 +0100, Lars Eighner <usenet@larseighner.com> >>> said: >>> >>>> When handwriting received more attention than it does today, many >>>> people >>>> could write in different styles... <snip> >>> Even with a proper nib it's not easy to achieve after years of >>> scribbling with ballpoints... <snip> >> Ah, I remember it well. >>> >>> My handwriting was indescribably awful until about that age, when it was >>> taken in hand by a teacher who undertook to teach us all italic >>> handwriting... <snip> >> Dunno about the detail, but in a mainstream establishment like WH Smith >> or John Lewis there is still a real choice of fountain pens. I use them [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > remembers for ever. Even after about ten refills and endless washing under > the tap the "red" still comes out reddish black. Athel, I've had second-hand pens, and they have often been full of dried-up ink. Unless it is India ink, or other bad stuff, they can be completely cleaned by soaking them. A day will sort most of them out; a totally caked example from the 1970s spent a week in cups of water, and emerged as good as new. Some people recommend ultrasonic cleaners, but time, and busy water molecules, do just as good a job. > [ ... ] >> My pens don't last that long, because I press rather hard and they >> crack. My younger is six months old (from the last time I was in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Some people recommend ultrasonic cleaners, but time, and busy water > molecules, do just as good a job. I've tried that, but without very impressive results. I may need to convert it back to black ink anyway, because I lost my newer pen (under the influenceof this thread?) yesterday. If I find it in the next couple of weeks I'll try the water treatment again on the older one. Signatureathel > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I would appreciate your comments. Judging by the handwriting I see in Austria, I would guess you are using something akin to Sütterlin [1], which I never met in the UK and which I presume is not common in the USA either. They accuse you of writing an "italic hand" because this is the only alternative they know to what in my day (as a child in the UK) would be referred to as "proper joined-up writing"; you could download worksheets [2] for comparison. [1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sütterlin> [2] <http://www.worksheetsunlimited.org/> SignatureLes (BrE) > Judging by the handwriting I see in Austria, I would guess you are using > something akin to Sütterlin [1], which I never met in the UK and which I > presume is not common in the USA either. No, for heaven's sake! Sütterlin is what my dad used. I looked at the fonts offered by MS Word so that you might get an idea and would say that "Tall Paul" is what comes closest to my handwriting. >They accuse you of writing > an "italic hand" because this is the only alternative they know to what in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > [2] <http://www.worksheetsunlimited.org/> Thanks for the interesting links! Ho > > Judging by the handwriting I see in Austria, I would guess you are using > > something akin to Sütterlin [1], which I never met in the UK and which I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Ho In 1965, my German teacher's handwriting, done the way she'd been taught as a child in Berlin, was unreadable by us American teenagers. We, and most of our parents, had been taught Palmer, and the forms used in Germany were at least as bewildering to us as Fraktur print (which our teacher couldn't read either). One classmate's mother, from Breslau, looked at the teacher's writing and commented, in German, "A good German hand." But we could not read it. And it was definitely not italic! Here are some samples of italic handwriting, all of which are perfectly legible: http://briem.ismennt.is/d/dd/dda/ddaa.htm I don't know why your friends would use the word for your writing. Other than calligraphers and other students of handwriting forms, most think of "italic" as referring to the slanted, sometimes curving, typeset letters used for book titles and emphasis rather than roman. (Most don't even know that non-italic typeset letters are "roman.") Cece schrieb: >In 1965, my German teacher's handwriting, done the way she'd been >taught as a child in Berlin, was unreadable by us American teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >definitely not italic! Here are some samples of italic handwriting, >all of which are perfectly legible: http://briem.ismennt.is/d/dd/dda/ddaa.htm Very interesting, very nice indeed! >I don't know why your friends would use the word for your writing. >Other than calligraphers and other students of handwriting forms, most >think of "italic" as referring to the slanted, sometimes curving, >typeset letters used for book titles and emphasis rather than roman. >(Most don't even know that non-italic typeset letters are "roman.") Thanks very much! Most of your postings were very inspiring, also in the sense of making me more conscious of what I'm doing with a pen. Ho > Cece schrieb: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Ho Hm! Wandering the Web, I see that "italic" has been used for non- cursive (joined) handwriting in which the letters are slanted. Sounds strange to me! Here is a page from the 1935 Palmer Penmanship book; this is the alphabet Americans were taught to write for about a century. http://www.iampeth.com/books/palmer_method_1935/palmerMethod_1935_page29.html In an effort to simplify the teaching (huh?), children are now taught other styles, like D'Nealian -- if they're taught handwriting at all. http://www.dnealian.com/samples.html I guess the D'Nealian Manuscript on that page counts as italic... (The rules and arrows on that page are for instruction, not use!) Cece filted: >Here is a page from the 1935 Palmer Penmanship book; this is the >alphabet Americans were taught to write for about a century. >http://www.iampeth.com/books/palmer_method_1935/palmerMethod_1935_page29.ht= >ml So there were 28 letters in the lowercase alphabet in 1935?...r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Cece filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So there were 28 letters in the lowercase alphabet in 1935?...r Have you forgotten the Great Spelling Reform? SignatureClassical Greek lent itself to the promulgation of a rich culture, indeed, to Western civilization. Computer languages bring us doorbells that chime with thirty-two tunes, alt.sex.bestiality, and Tetris clones. (Stoll 1995) Adam Funk filted: >> Cece filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Have you forgotten the Great Spelling Reform? I'm from California; that can only refer to Tori leaving the cast of 90210....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Adam Funk filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >I'm from California; that can only refer to Tori leaving the cast of 90210....r <groan> (but good) SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Cece filted: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" > "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" Two forms of the lower-case r. Some teachers liked one; some liked the other. My second-grade teacher and my third-grade teacher liked different ones; I had to relearn it! When I was reading facsimiles of correspondence from 1484, I realized that even then both forms existed and some people liked one and some the other. The forms then (before that awful Secretary hand took over) showed that one is "r" and the other is "rho." In those letters, it could get interesting, distinguishing "p" from "r" from "thorn." -------------------8>< > Hm! Wandering the Web, I see that "italic" has been used for non- > cursive (joined) handwriting in which the letters are slanted. Sounds [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > alphabet Americans were taught to write for about a century. > http://www.iampeth.com/books/palmer_method_1935/palmerMethod_1935_page29.html -------------------8>< That's pretty much the components of the cursive style that we were being taught (or, more accurately, being drilled in) in 1950s primary school in Manchester (Engand). I never did conform, because it wasn't the style I wanted to use (I had aspirations in the direction of the fine copperplate style of an uncle of mine). I still remember the sore knuckles inflicted with the edge of a ruler, and my handwriting has ever since bordered on illegible. SignaturePeter (BrE) "Cece" schrieb: Hm! Wandering the Web, I see that "italic" has been used for non- cursive (joined) handwriting in which the letters are slanted. Sounds strange to me! Here is a page from the 1935 Palmer Penmanship book; this is the alphabet Americans were taught to write for about a century. http://www.iampeth.com/books/palmer_method_1935/palmerMethod_1935_page29.html In an effort to simplify the teaching (huh?), children are now taught other styles, like D'Nealian -- if they're taught handwriting at all. http://www.dnealian.com/samples.html I guess the D'Nealian Manuscript on that page counts as italic... (The rules and arrows on that page are for instruction, not use!) Thank you, I hardly knew anything about this although I was partly educated in the US (graduated from high school plus one year at an undergraduate college).Both alphabets are very much like the one I was taught in Germany in the late 40s except for the upper case, which looks strange to me in many cases, e.g. the capital A,B,F,G,M,N,Q,S and Z. What I also find interesting is the fact that The Palmer method is absolutely clear about the numbers 1 (without upstroke) and 7 (uncrossed), the former of which has caused so much confusion and bad blood in Europe. All the best, Ho > "Cece" schrieb: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Ho In 1954, I was taught slightly different A and B (B had two or three acceptable variants at the time) and a very different F (just like the T with a crossbar). The numbers were taller, and the 7 and 9 did not extend below the line. Thirty years before this book, numbers were different, designed more for accountants; differences from the 1935 book were: 3, 6, and 8 and the final vertical of 4 were taller, 2 and 5 were more angular. In the U.S., lots of scientists and engineers cross the 7; some folks cross a block printed Z (so it doesn't look like a 2). I've seen both from the same hand, but then there are those who confuse a crossed Z with a crossed 7. Some schools and offices mandate the forms of hand- printed letters, or at least, did in the days of hand-writing comuter programs on forms that were given to keypunch operators. The programmers also had to remember if the 0 or the O got slashed. Yes, it certainly did make a difference! I've had to deal with the results of Hollerith cards punched by operators on automatic (computers get terribly confused when they find an O in the middle of a number). > In the U.S., lots of scientists and engineers cross the 7; some folks > cross a block printed Z (so it doesn't look like a 2). I've seen both [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of Hollerith cards punched by operators on automatic (computers get > terribly confused when they find an O in the middle of a number). It's not just the US. When I started my scientific career in the UK, I made several annoying errors with handwritten, "7", "z" and "0" (zero) and, ever after, crossed all of them. I was a bit inconsistent with zero since opportunities to mistake it for the letter "O" were uncommon. I've lived in the US for a long time and, tho' I have retired and mostly use computers for calculation, I still usually cross the three of them in handwriting. I once had an argument with a bank about a crossed seven but I won that one. I think it is interesting that the State of Maryland does not use the letter "O" on standard license plates since it can be mistaken for "D". SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Cece filted: >In the U.S., lots of scientists and engineers cross the 7; some folks >cross a block printed Z (so it doesn't look like a 2). I've seen both [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >of Hollerith cards punched by operators on automatic (computers get >terribly confused when they find an O in the middle of a number). Not as confused as keypunch operators do when you spell "ST0P" with a zero....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Hi, > >I sent my American friends a handwritten letter in German, and they said they "struggled" with my "italic hand". Does this just mean >they aren't used to script leaning to the right, or is it a humorous way of saying they couldn't decipher my scribble? > >I would appreciate your comments. They were trying to be funny, I think, as you suspected. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Ho Probably a humorous comment. I am not familiar with German handwriting but I know that I find French handwriting is often different enough from 'normal' Canadian handwriting that I sometimes have a problem reading it. So it is possible that your German style is difficult for some Americans. John Kane Kingston ON Canada >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > have a problem reading it. So it is possible that your German style > is difficult for some Americans. If Holger's handwriting is similar to the style shown in my German-Swedish grammar from the fifties (probably even older), I think the recipients would have trouble with it. I taught myself to use that script when keeping notes on German, just for kicks. |
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