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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009Homely common old Germanic words used by Americans but never Britons.
Oftentimes. Hereonout I didn't know these words existed until this year. --iain On 23 Jan 2009, Iain wrote > Oftentimes. As an aside, I saw this cryptically clued many years ago as "ofofofofofofofofofof". > Hereonout > > I didn't know these words existed until this year. Have you encountered "happenstance"?  SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 23 Jan 2009, Iain wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Have you encountered "happenstance"? Only online. I noticed in the movie Pride and Glory, hearing young cops use mildly archaic word choices such as 'forsake', 'slay', and 'forthwith'(police radio). Are these words making a comeback? --Iain On 23 Jan 2009, Iain wrote >> On 23 Jan 2009, Iain wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Are these words making a comeback? In some places, they never went away; I grew up in Canada and consider all of the words you mention as unremarkable -- a bit formal in some cases, but not remotely unusual. There may be some re-importing to Britain of words which have fallen out of use in BrE, but the words themselves were not archaic in all forms of English. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed As an AmE speaker, specifically east-coast (Maryland) but heavily influenced by reading, geekdom, and telecommunication (I have a chameleon accent, somewhat; I'm not sure whether my dialect shifts as well)... >On 23 Jan 2009, Iain wrote >>> On 23 Jan 2009, Iain wrote >>>> Oftentimes. Familiar and ordinary to me. >>>> Hereonout Accustomed to hearing/seeing this as three separate words, but find it a familiar _construction_. >>> Have you encountered "happenstance"? (Also familiar to me, though possible due to hanging out with historical reenactors and folks with eclecting reading tastes...? Certainly used casually by my friends.) >> I noticed in the movie Pride and Glory, hearing young cops use >> mildly archaic word choices such as 'forsake', 'slay', and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >consider all of the words you mention as unremarkable -- a bit >formal in some cases, but not remotely unusual. Similar here: unremarkable, though I think "slay", not currently coded as formal, was so in the not too distant past, and "forthwith" tends to be either formal or mocking-formal (and one might hear a mother include it in an impatient command to her children, which is a bit specialized but I'm not sure I'd call it 'formal').A "Forsake" is familiar both from ritual forms (e.g. "... to have and to hold, forsaking all others ...") and from classic lit (and period pieces), but the form "forsaken", especially to describe an emotional state, is common enough informally and without sounding like an archaism. I know I've heard "forsook" in casual conversation a few time sover the past half year, and "forsake" casually at least in the context of sacrificing one option to facilitate others (for example, "forsake backwards-compatibility in order to make the code more manageable"). SignatureD. Glenn Arthur Jr./The Human Vibrator, dglenn@panix.com Due to hand/wrist problems my newsreading time varies so I may miss followups. "Being a _man_ means knowing that one has a choice not to act like a 'man'." http://www.panix.com/~dglenn/ http://dglenn.livejournal.com Iain Inkster: >> I noticed in the movie Pride and Glory, hearing young cops use >> mildly archaic word choices such as 'forsake', 'slay', and >> 'forthwith'(police radio). Harvey Van Sickle: > In some places, they never went away; I grew up in Canada and > consider all of the words you mention as unremarkable -- a bit > formal in some cases, but not remotely unusual. I don't find it remarkable for them to be *used*, but not in the context of normal conversation or a police radio. (Well, not that I ever listen to police radio in real life, but I think I have an idea of what people say on it.) "Slay", if it means "kill", is newspaper-headline language. (There's also the slang use meaning something like "greatly amuse", sometimes said sarcastically, but I think that's rather dated now.) "Forthwith" is lawyers' language, and "forsake" has a literary or poetic sound (although "godforsaken" does not, to me). SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "C and C++ are two different languages. msb@vex.net That's UK policy..." -- Clive Feather My text in this article is in the public domain. >and "forsake" has a literary or poetic sound (although "godforsaken" >does not, to me). High Noon: Do not forsake me, oh my darlin' On this, our weddin' day Do not forsake me, oh my darlin' Wait, wait along http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/h/highnoon.shtml SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Mark Brader: >> and "forsake" has a literary or poetic sound ... Peter Duncanson quotes a song from "High Noon". Exactly. Poetic usage. SignatureMark Brader "After all, it is necessary to get behind Toronto someone before you can stab them in the back." msb@vex.net -- Lynn & Jay, "Yes, Prime Minister" >Harvey Van Sickle: >> In some places, they never went away; I grew up in Canada and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >idea of what people say on it.) "Slay", if it means "kill", is >newspaper-headline language. [...] I find it unremarkable for performers or athletes to describe a particularly good performance with a line like, "We slew, last night!" I also see "-slayer" used at last as often as "-killer" to describe someone/something as being effective in defeating, literally or metaphorically, some class. (E.g. a mocking nickname of "carslayer" for someone who has totalled a few vehicles, "rodentslayer" as an affectionate title for a housecat who is an effective hunter, or "bugslayer" as an informal job description for a software QA specialist.) I suspect, with little evidence, that this usage may have been influenced by heavy metal, where "slayer" sounds _cooler_ than "killer", but the only example that leaps immediately to mind is the song that has Elmer Fudd describing himself as a "guitar-pwayer, wabbit-swayer". I _think_ any uptick in such usage predates _Buffy_the_ _Vampire_Slayer_, but I am not certain. I would expect to hear "slay" and "kill" used interchangeably in casual conversation about videogames or FRPGs, but not in SCA or Markland combat. Huh. It occurs to me that if I had to dispatch a handful of vermin at a time, it would feel natural to say that I "slew four mice in my kitchen" if they were killed one at a time, but not "I slew a dozen ants" if they were killed en masse with bug spray. Not sure whether that distinction is dialect or idiolect. SignatureD. Glenn Arthur Jr./The Human Vibrator, dglenn@panix.com Due to hand/wrist problems my newsreading time varies so I may miss followups. "Being a _man_ means knowing that one has a choice not to act like a 'man'." http://www.panix.com/~dglenn/ http://dglenn.livejournal.com >Huh. It occurs to me that if I had to dispatch a handful >of vermin at a time, it would feel natural to say that I >"slew four mice in my kitchen" if they were killed one at >a time, but not "I slew a dozen ants" if they were killed >en masse with bug spray. Not sure whether that distinction >is dialect or idiolect. That immediately reminded me of book from my distant childhood. I still have it in the loft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Valiant_Little_Tailor SignatureIan >> Harvey Van Sickle: >>> In some places, they never went away; I grew up in Canada and [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > en masse with bug spray. Not sure whether that distinction > is dialect or idiolect. Of course, Fennimore Cooper's "The Deerslayer" is a famous early American contribution to literature. but, has anyone read it? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland >>> Harvey Van Sickle: >>>> In some places, they never went away; I grew up in Canada and [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >Of course, Fennimore Cooper's "The Deerslayer" is a famous early >American contribution to literature. but, has anyone read it? Who'd want to read such garbage, in the eyes of one of my high school English teachers? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Mark Brader: > > "Slay", if it means "kill", is newspaper-headline language. Glenn Arthur: > I find it unremarkable for performers or athletes to describe > a particularly good performance with a line like, "We slew, last > night!" I haven't heart that. > I also see "-slayer" used at last as often as "-killer" to > describe someone/something as being effective in defeating, > literally or metaphorically, some class. ... Hmm, yes, that one I agree with. > Huh. It occurs to me that if I had to dispatch a handful > of vermin at a time, it would feel natural to say that I > "slew four mice in my kitchen" if they were killed one at > a time ... It sounds archaic to me. SignatureMark Brader | "And so it went. Tens of thousands of messages, Toronto | hundreds of points of view. It was not called the msb@vex.net | Net of a Million Lies for nothing." --Vernor Vinge Mark Brader: > I haven't heart that. I haven't eared it either. :-) SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "... people are *always* doing stuff ... msb@vex.net that I wish were typos" --Marcy Thompson Mark Brader filted: >Mark Brader: >> > "Slay", if it means "kill", is newspaper-headline language. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >It sounds archaic to me. Courtesy of Stan Freberg (with an assist by Daws Butler).... Dragon: "Hey, I'm da fire breathin' dragon! You must be St. George, right?!" St. George: "Yes sir." Dragon: "I see you got one of those new 45-caliber swords." St. George: "That's about the size of it." Dragon: "Bwahahahaha! You slay me!" St. George: "That's what I came here to talk to you about." Dragon: "Whad'ya mean?" St. George: "I'm taking you in on a 502; you figure it out." Dragon: "What's da charge?" St. George: "Devouring maidens out of season." Dragon: "OUT OF SEASON! YOU'LL NEVER PIN THAT RAP ON ME, DO YOU HEAR ME, COP?!" St. George: "Yeah. I hear you. I got you on a 412 too." Dragon: "A 412! WHAT'S A 412?!!" St. George: "Overacting. Let's go." ....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > On 23 Jan 2009, Iain wrote > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > fallen out of use in BrE, but the words themselves were not archaic > in all forms of English. I still live in Canada and none of the words are that unusual. Forsake and forthwith are likely used in a formal or ironic manner but slay is perfectly normal Cdn English. Given the recent spat of shooting in Toronto one might say that the kids go slaying all the time. [1] John Kane Kingston ON Canada 1. Sorry but there is a good toboganning hill just outside my living room window and a lot of kids are out on it these days. John Kane Kingston ON Canada >> On 23 Jan 2009, Iain wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Are these words making a comeback? I find "forthwith" an everyday word, "forsake" a bit less everyday, but I wouldn't raise an eyebrow if I heard it, and "slay", as others have remarked, is a headline writer's word. Signatureathel > On 23 Jan 2009, Iain wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Have you encountered "happenstance"? Only in American films, "Goldfinger" for example, though maybe that wasn't officially an American film. Signatureathel [Subject: Homely common old Germanic words used by Americans but never Britons.] I wouldn't be so sure of "never". >Oftentimes. "oftentimes" originated in Britain. The OED marks it as: Now chiefly N. Amer.; otherwise arch. or literary. I would expect it to be understood by Britons. >Hereonout I usually hear and read "hereonout" as "hereon out". That phrase is not, as far as I know, in common use in BrE. Some people willunderstand it. There is also a similar phrase "hereon in". >I didn't know these words existed until this year. > >--iain SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >willunderstand Sorry! will understand. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >[Subject: Homely common old Germanic words used by Americans but never >Britons.] [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >There is also a similar phrase "hereon in". I don't recognize either of those as words, but as fixed phrases - "[from] here on out" & "[from] here on in". I don't see either "hereonout" or "hereonin" in Onelook, either. "Hereon" appears, but with its own meaning: "on this" or "hereupon". SignatureJohn > >[Subject: Homely common old Germanic words used by Americans but never > >Britons.] [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > "hereonout" or "hereonin" in Onelook, either. "Hereon" appears, but > with its own meaning: "on this" or "hereupon". "From here on down, it's uphill all the way." - Pogo (Walt Kelly) Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- "Bother," said the Borg, "We've assimilated Pooh." -- anonymous > Oftentimes. > Hereonout > > I didn't know these words existed until this year. I've never heard "hereonout", except as John O'Flaherty understood it. "Oftentimes" is very common where I live in New Mexico; I hear it as a genteelism. It's fairly low on my rule-the-world list, though-- below "rate of speed" or "By increasing the voltage, the light gets brighter", for example. -- Jerry Friedman Jerry Friedman: > "Oftentimes" is very common where I live in New Mexico; I hear it > as a genteelism. Interesting: I hear it as folksy. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto |"--", Paul said, and then repeated it for emphasis. msb@vex.net | --Spider Robinson, "Lifehouse" > Jerry Friedman: >> "Oftentimes" is very common where I live in New Mexico; I hear it >> as a genteelism. > > Interesting: I hear it as folksy. You say "folksy", I say "genteel", let's call the whole thing off. I wonder if in fact you are not saying the same thing. Regards Jonathan Jerry Friedman: >>> "Oftentimes" is very common where I live in New Mexico; I hear it >>> as a genteelism. Mark Brader: >> Interesting: I hear it as folksy. Jonathan Morton: > I wonder if in fact you are not saying the same thing. Huh? They both have a connotation of surface politeness, but "genteel" people are those who seem to consider themselves above the common folks who would be "folksy". It's like U and non-U, respectively. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Yet Another Wonderful Novelty -- YAWN!" msb@vex.net -- Liam Quin My text in this article is in the public domain. > Oftentimes. > Hereonout > > I didn't know these words existed until this year. "Oftentimes" I've heard in the US but never in Britain. However, I've never had any doubt about what it means. I don't think I've ever come across "hereonout" anywhere, and although I can guess what it means I wouldn't be sure without hearing it in context. I suppose it means "from now on". In written form it puts me on the wrong track by making me think of herons. Signatureathel On 24 Jan 2009, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote >> Oftentimes. >> Hereonout [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > written form it puts me on the wrong track by making me think of > herons. As noted elsethread, even people who use the phrase would tend not to spell it as one word -- it would normally be "from here on out" (and possibly, but much less commonly I'd say, "from hereon out"). SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >> Oftentimes. >> Hereonout [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >"Oftentimes" I've heard in the US but never in Britain. However, I've >never had any doubt about what it means. It started out as a British word, though, which goes back to 1430 with an "oftentymes" spelling, according to the OED. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 10:30:44 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It started out as a British word, though, which goes back to 1430 with > an "oftentymes" spelling, according to the OED. Four syllables? The spelling looks too awkward to utter oftentymes. --Iain >> On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 10:30:44 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Four syllables? The spelling looks too awkward to utter oftentymes. It is pronounced of.ten.tymes. As with "oftentimes, I only see three syllables. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland Chuck wrote on Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:56:20 +0000: > It is pronounced of.ten.tymes. As with "oftentimes, I only see > three syllables. To add a complication, didn't John Peel "oftimes" lead his hounds in addition to waking up people at ungodly hours. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Chuck wrote on Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:56:20 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > To add a complication, didn't John Peel "oftimes" lead his hounds in > addition to waking up people at ungodly hours. That sounds like a contraction of oft-times. SignatureDavid the wrote on Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:18:49 GMT: >> Chuck wrote on Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:56:20 +0000: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> To add a complication, didn't John Peel "oftimes" lead his >> hounds in addition to waking up people at ungodly hours. > That sounds like a contraction of oft-times. Quite possibly. I know quite a lot of the words from singing them but not from reading. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >the wrote on Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:18:49 GMT: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >> That sounds like a contraction of oft-times. It is. And it was really 'the dead' that a blast from John Peel's hunting horn would have wakened. No Englishman goes fox-hunting when decent folks are in bed. These days, the Elfin Safety Authorities and the Noise Abatement Society would intervene, and restrict the noise to an acceptable level. >Quite possibly. I know quite a lot of the words from singing them but >not from reading. SignatureIan Ian wrote on Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:49:12 +0000: >> the wrote on Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:18:49 GMT: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Elfin Safety Authorities and the Noise Abatement Society would > intervene, and restrict the noise to an acceptable level. >> Quite possibly. I know quite a lot of the words from singing them but >> not from reading. Isn't this a correct quote: "The sound of his horn brought me from my bed" ? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Ian wrote on Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:49:12 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Isn't this a correct quote: "The sound of his horn brought me from my > bed" ? I believe that it was his "View all halloo" which was capable of rousing the dead from their slumbers. Fran who had to play "D'ye ken John Peel" on the violin for a school music festival more years ago than I care to think about. >> Ian wrote on Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:49:12 +0000: >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >who had to play "D'ye ken John Peel" on the violin for a school music >festival more years ago than I care to think about. Yeah, yeah. OK. I was on the wrong line. But loud shouting and other loutish behaviour is just as unacceptable as the blowing of horns. The Wikipedia words are: "For the sound of his horn brought me from my bed, And the cry of his hounds which he oftime led, Peel's "View, Halloo!" could awaken the dead, Or the fox from his lair in the morning." However, I know "oftime" as "oftimes" and, of course, it probably should really be "oft'times" or "oft-times". I'm sure that sufficient Googling would find this version somewhere. SignatureIan [...] > Yeah, yeah. OK. I was on the wrong line. But loud shouting and other > loutish behaviour is just as unacceptable as the blowing of horns. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > should really be "oft'times" or "oft-times". I'm sure that sufficient > Googling would find this version somewhere. I'm sure you're right, even if Ggl doesn't deliver. "Oftime" and "oft-time" sound impossible to me. SignatureMike. > Ian wrote on Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:49:12 +0000: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Isn't this a correct quote: "The sound of his horn brought me from my > bed" ? And there's reference to "peep-o'-day boys" in at least one Jorrocks book. (These are fox-hunters, not the old-time Irish sectarian kind.) SignatureMike. |
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