> Beryl Bainbridge had some contentious things to say about accent on BBC
> Radio yesterday. You can hear the interview here:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2009/01/beryl_bainbridge_and_the_liver.shtml
> and I've written a transcript here:
> http://dadge.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/beryl-on-scouse/
The last BB comment quoted here (introduced by a question about
reintroducing elocution lessons in public schools, as BB says were
normal when her father went to school in Liverpool is "Half the teachers
today cannot speak properly."
This confirms the asymmetry of changes in schools (especially
changes in teacher training) since the 1960s. The traditional idea
(say 1860-1960) was that schooling offered the best opportunity to
the working-class majority to "better themselves," demonstrated
by speaking and writing to standard norms. Simultaneously teachers
were anxious to get secure status as professionals (which they
formerly did not have, i.e. they too sought to "better themselves"), best
done at this early period by exemplifying these standards.
Three changes occurred simultaneously and suddenly in the 1960s:
1. Having won professional status, teachers relaxed significantly.
2. The English social class system began to decay rapidly (cf.
BBC acceptance of non-RSP voices etc.)
3. In the classroom doctrines of "progressive education" displaced
the empirical methods of 1860-1960. Uniform drill, memory training
and strict examination standards were widely deplored (more for
ideological reasons than on the basis of any proofs concerning outcomes.)
In general, schools sought to relax discipline and offer students more fun.
A fourth contemporary change was the Americanization of the higher
education in Britain, as colleges began offering undergraduates a
wide range of elective courses rather than standard curricula (which
seemed by 1960 badly out of date at least in the humanities, viz.
the undergraduate curricula in English and History incuded almost
nothing after 1900 or 1914.)
I know of no reliable proof, but it seems likely that teachers who qualified
at college only after 1970 took back with them into the classroom both
(a) less detailed knowledge of the school-level curriculum than had
been deployed by the generation that taught them, and (b) changed
values too, deploring discipline and rote learning and hoping to
encourage children's spontaneity and imagination.
Cf. T.H. Huxley: "Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is
the ability to make yourself do the thing you have to do, when it ought
to be done, whether you like it or not; it is the first lesson that ought to
be learned, and however early a man's training begins, it is probably
the last lesson that he learns thoroughly." I'd claim this idea was
central to English education 1860-1960 (and probably American too)
but in the last 50 years generally deplored as too difficult of practical
achievement or likely to do more harm than good.
E.g. "learning to speak properly," especially when this meant
mastering RSP in an environment where only nobs and snobs
spoke thus. We have abundant first-hand testimony that this
was often difficult, but changed lives for the better where it
was achieved. Nowadays many teachers in England would
disavow this as either politically undesirable or psychologically
damaging to the child or his family.

Signature
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Mike Lyle - 23 Jan 2009 23:11 GMT
[...]
> E.g. "learning to speak properly," especially when this meant
> mastering RSP in an environment where only nobs and snobs
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> disavow this as either politically undesirable or psychologically
> damaging to the child or his family.
(This also ties in with some of what I snipped: sorry.)
Brit teacher-training courses (some of them at any rate) used till about
the 'fifties to include speech training, a.k.a. elocution. One alumnus
of such a programme said he did badly at that part of the course: "Show
me your tongue," said the trainer. He obeyed. Said the trainer, "It's
too big." Jonathan Ross always reminds me of this anecdote.

Signature
Mike.
> Beryl Bainbridge had some contentious things to say about accent on BBC
> Radio yesterday. You can hear the interview here:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2009/01/beryl_bainbridge_and_the_liver.shtml
> and I've written a transcript here:
> http://dadge.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/beryl-on-scouse/
Someone talking about elocution ought to be more careful about
"everybody ... they".

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Mark Brader - 26 Jan 2009 02:23 GMT
Adrian Bailey:
> > Beryl Bainbridge had some contentious things to say about accent on BBC
> > Radio yesterday. You can hear the interview here:
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2009/01/beryl_bainbridge_and_the_liver.shtml
> > and I've written a transcript here:
> > http://dadge.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/beryl-on-scouse/
Adam Funk:
> Someone talking about elocution ought to be more careful about
> "everybody ... they".
You mean this bit?
It seems to me that everybody is completely at ease with the way that
they speak, and the worse they speak, they don't seem to worry at all.
What on Earth do you imagine is wrong with it?

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Mark Brader, Toronto "But I want credit for all the words
msb@vex.net I spelled *right*!" -- BEETLE BAILEY
Mark Brader - 26 Jan 2009 02:25 GMT
Adam Funk:
> > Someone talking about elocution ought to be more careful about
> > "everybody ... they".
Mark Brader:
> You mean this bit?
>
> It seems to me that everybody is completely at ease with the way that
> they speak, and the worse they speak, they don't seem to worry at all.
>
> What on Earth do you imagine is wrong with it?
Er, of course I meant with respect to "everybody" and "they". The last
clause is certainly a bit off.

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Mark Brader, Toronto | "What's fair got to do with it? It's going
msb@vex.net | to happen." -- Lawrence of Arabia
Adam Funk - 26 Jan 2009 18:49 GMT
> Adrian Bailey:
>> > Beryl Bainbridge had some contentious things to say about accent on BBC
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> What on Earth do you imagine is wrong with it?
Without seeking to open the argument about whether the "singular they"
construction is wrong, I was expressing surprise that someone who
thinks people should speak better (although in accent rather than
syntax) would use it.

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hmmmm: sounds like the same DLL hell problem my cousin had. try
deleting all DLLs in your Windows/system32 directory and see what
happens. (Bryce Utting)
Mark Brader - 27 Jan 2009 05:30 GMT
Adrian Bailey:
>>>> ... I've written a transcript here:
>>>> http://dadge.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/beryl-on-scouse/
Adam Funk:
>>> Someone talking about elocution ought to be more careful about
>>> "everybody ... they".
Mark Brader:
>> You mean this bit?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> What on Earth do you imagine is wrong with it [relating to "everybody"]?
Adam Funk:
> Without seeking to open the argument about whether the "singular they"
> construction is wrong, I was expressing surprise that someone who
> thinks people should speak better (although in accent rather than
> syntax) would use it.
But it's not a "singular they". "Everybody" is one of those words
that are construed as singular when a verb has to agree with them,
but are plural in sense and when a proboun has to agree with them.
It's like when you say "Toronto is never going to finish first now
that they've traded Mahovlich."

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Mark Brader, Toronto | "I've always wanted to be a mad scientist!
msb@vex.net | Or perhaps just mad!" -- Robert L. Biddle