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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009Godwin's Law has loopholes sez etymologist. Astounding photos of the gaping holes too !!!!
Godwin's Law has loopholes according to new discoveries. One loophole is to always and only use the full phrase “National Socialist German Workers’ Party” in place of the misleading abbreviation "Nazi" that is used almost exclusively by the general public (and by all victims of government schools (socialist schools)) due to rampant ignorance about what the abbreviation abbreviates. Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" and they do not know that members of the National Socialist German Workers Party did not refer to themselves as "Nazis." http://rexcurry.net/godwin.html Note also that Godwin’s Law ceases to apply when people really act like genuine Nazis, e.g. by persecuting people for exercise of free speech (e.g. by persecuting students who refuse to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, which was the origin of the stiff-arm salute adopted later by the National Socialist German Workers Party, as uncovered by the historian and etymologist Dr. Rex Curry, author of "Pledge of Allegiance Secrets"). http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-pledge.html To see an astounding photograph visit http://rexcurry.net/pledge-allegiance-pledge-allegaince.jpg http://rexcurry.net/swastikastop.html http://rexcurry.net/swastikapoem.html http://rexcurry.net/swastikamain.html Godwin's Law is a natural law of Usenet named after Mike Godwin concerning Usenet "discussions." It reads, according to the Jargon File: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." http://rexcurry.net/pledge2.html The loopholes to Godwin's law are known as Rexwin's laws. > Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" Bollocks.  SignatureDavid > > Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" > > Bollocks. Care to elaborate? (I seem to be with News J. on this particular point.) /W SignatureMy real email address is constructed by swapping the domain with the recipient (local part). >>> Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" >> Bollocks. > > Care to elaborate? (I seem to be with News J. on this particular point.) Well, I'm not sure how to prove my view, but IME, nearly everybody knows where the term "Nazi" came from. For values of "everybody" meaning "those people I know", which is mostly educated Europeans. Did anybody reading this *not* already know that Nazi is a shortened form of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers' Party)? SignatureDavid >>>> Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" >>> Bollocks. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >form of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National >Socialist German Workers' Party)? Define "know". Had you asked me, I would have had to look up the full form. No way would I be able to write or spell the full form. However, I would have known that there is a full form and known that it was something like that. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>> Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" >>>> Bollocks. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >However, I would have known that there is a full form and known that >it was something like that. Come, come. Even if one doesn't know the precise full German name of the NSDAP, one ought to know that "Nazi" is a contracted form of it. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>>> Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" >>>>> Bollocks. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >of the NSDAP, one ought to know that "Nazi" is a contracted form >of it. Isn't that what I said? And, in the post immediately before this, I said: I would say that most Americans over a certain age know that "Nazi" is a shortened nickname. Only a small percentage of them could come up with the full word without looking it up." I don't think too many Americans could be expected to reel off even a non-precise version of the full name in German. They would know there is one, and probably that "national" and "socialist" (or the German words) are in there somewhere, but no much more. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > >>Did anybody reading this *not* already know that Nazi is a > >>shortened form of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > of the NSDAP, one ought to know that "Nazi" is a contracted form > of it. "Ought to" =/= "does". I'm not convinced many people know that (Americans or other). I suspect that even most Germans wouldn't really "know" this. This would be pretty interesting thing to have a poll about, but I'm not sure how to get a representative group of people together easily (let alone a sufficient number of control groups). /W SignatureMy real email address is constructed by swapping the domain with the recipient (local part). >> >>Did anybody reading this *not* already know that Nazi is a >> >>shortened form of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I'm not convinced many people know that (Americans or other). I >suspect that even most Germans wouldn't really "know" this. I think that if you would come up with a multiple choice question asking "What is "Nazi" short for?", and listed the correct German combination plus three other similar-but-quite-wrong combinations, (like Nationaldeutsche Arbeitische Sozialistferstung Idammerungzingparti) that few non-German speakers would recognize the correct one. >This would be pretty interesting thing to have a poll about, but I'm >not sure how to get a representative group of people together easily >(let alone a sufficient number of control groups). SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > I think that if you would come up with a multiple choice question > asking "What is "Nazi" short for?", and listed the correct German > combination plus three other similar-but-quite-wrong combinations, > (like Nationaldeutsche Arbeitische Sozialistferstung > Idammerungzingparti) > that few non-German speakers would recognize the correct one. Right. But even less specifically, I don't think many people even know that it refers (or at least originally referred) to the *party*. I suspect that it has mostly sunken in as a generic term like "fascist" or "racist". /W SignatureMy real email address is constructed by swapping the domain with the recipient (local part). >> I think that if you would come up with a multiple choice question >> asking "What is "Nazi" short for?", and listed the correct German [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > suspect that it has mostly sunken in as a generic term like "fascist" > or "racist". Does Mel Brooks mean nothing these days: - Don't be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the Nazi party! SignatureDavid >>> >>Did anybody reading this *not* already know that Nazi is a >>> >>shortened form of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >>not sure how to get a representative group of people together easily >>(let alone a sufficient number of control groups). I'd be more interested to know how many people have ever had hemorrhoids, which is to say I have no interest whatever in how many people know what Nazi stands for. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>> Did anybody reading this *not* already know that Nazi is a >>>> shortened form of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > not sure how to get a representative group of people together easily > (let alone a sufficient number of control groups). I confess I thought it was the "national-sozialistische Arbeiter- und Bauernpartei Deutschlands", so I've been wrong for years. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>>> Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" >>>>> Bollocks. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >of the NSDAP, one ought to know that "Nazi" is a contracted form >of it. "Come, come"? One "ought to"? My God, the bollocks increase by the minute. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > Did anybody reading this *not* already know that Nazi is a shortened > form of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National > Socialist German Workers' Party)? *raises hand* *realizes how that looks* *puts it back down* I knew that "Nazi" is a shortened form of _something_, but couldn't say what. SignatureSML >> Did anybody reading this *not* already know that Nazi is a shortened >> form of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I knew that "Nazi" is a shortened form of _something_, but couldn't say > what. Yes, sorry, I shot myself in the foot. I meant, does anybody not know that it's short for something like "National Socialist Party"? SignatureDavid >>> Did anybody reading this *not* already know that Nazi is a shortened >>> form of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Yes, sorry, I shot myself in the foot. I meant, does anybody not know > that it's short for something like "National Socialist Party"? You should see some of Jay Leno's /Jaywalking/ segments of the /Tonight/ show some time. The lack of general knowledge in young adults is frightening. I don't know if Leno's show is available in the UK, though. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>> Did anybody reading this *not* already know that Nazi is a shortened >>>> form of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >I don't know if Leno's show is available in the UK, though. It is available via satellite and cable in exchange for money. It is broadcast on CNBC Europe. I don't know how many customers subscribe to the channel bundle which includes that channel. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>I don't know if Leno's show is available in the UK, though. > >It is available via satellite and cable in exchange for money. It is broadcast >on CNBC Europe. I don't know how many customers subscribe to the channel >bundle which includes that channel. Back in the 1990s on our first trip to Finland we were staying in a cousin's flat and discovered that Jay Leno's Tonight show was on their cable at about 11pm local time. We were flabbergasted. Kind of like we never left home. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>I don't know if Leno's show is available in the UK, though. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >on their cable at about 11pm local time. We were flabbergasted. >Kind of like we never left home. Yes. It used to be available on a channel on free digital terrestrial TV in the UK, but it moved off that. Then Letterman moved off a rival free digital terrestrial channel. Unfortunate. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>I don't know if Leno's show is available in the UK, though. >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >but it moved off that. Then Letterman moved off a rival free digital >terrestrial channel. Unfortunate. It will be moot soon, since Leno's contract for the Tonight show is not being renewed and he will be replaced by Conan O'Brien. But apparently NBC has realized that Leno was the only one making any money for them and he is now to have his own five night per week time slot an hour and a half earlier, during our prime time. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> > Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" >> >> Bollocks. > >Care to elaborate? (I seem to be with News J. on this particular point.) I would say that most Americans over a certain age know that "Nazi" is a shortened nickname. Only a small percentage of them could come up with the full word without looking it up. Younger Americans, and Americans who have not attended college, may not know that there is a full version. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>> Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" >>> Bollocks. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a shortened nickname. Only a small percentage of them could come up > with the full word without looking it up. Yes, I should not have implied that English speakers would be able to quote the German name of the party. I certainly had to look it up. SignatureDavid the wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:57:04 GMT: >>>>> Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand >>>>> slang "Nazi" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> is a shortened nickname. Only a small percentage of >> them could come up with the full word without looking it up. > Yes, I should not have implied that English speakers would be able to > quote the German name of the party. I certainly had > to look it up. German familiar or affectionate diminutives tend to end in "i" or "zi". Witness "Otzi, the Ice Man" and "Wessi" and "Ossi" for West and East Germans. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > German familiar or affectionate diminutives tend to end in "i" or > "zi". Witness "Otzi, the Ice Man" and "Wessi" and "Ossi" for West and > East Germans. Well ... kind of. :) The more frequent diminutive particles would be "-chen" and "-lein". You are right about the "familiar" part though. "Mammi" and "Pappi" (or "Mutti", "Vati", "Omi", "Opi") come to mind, maybe "Schnucki" or "Hasi" and the like. But these only (ever?) refer to certain people, not groups ("Ossis" and "Wessis" being notable exceptions). What I'm getting at is this: I find it much more likely that "Nazi" is really only is a short form of "Nationalsozialist", because "Nazi" sounds exactly like the first part of the longer word. Same for "Sozi", for instance. Please note that I'm not sure about this, it's just a hunch. /W [Followup-To set to alt.usage.german] SignatureMy real email address is constructed by swapping the domain with the recipient (local part). Andreas wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:58:25 +0100: >> German familiar or affectionate diminutives tend to end in >> "i" or "zi". Witness "Otzi, the Ice Man" and "Wessi" and >> "Ossi" for West and East Germans. > Well ... kind of. :) > The more frequent diminutive particles would be "-chen" and > "-lein". You are right about the "familiar" part though. > "Mammi" and "Pappi" (or "Mutti", "Vati", "Omi", "Opi") come to > mind, maybe "Schnucki" or "Hasi" and the like. But these only > (ever?) refer to certain people, not groups ("Ossis" and > "Wessis" being notable exceptions). > What I'm getting at is this: I find it much more likely that > "Nazi" is really only is a short form of "Nationalsozialist", > because "Nazi" sounds exactly like the first part of the > longer word. Same for "Sozi", for instance. > Please note that I'm not sure about this, it's just a hunch. My hunch is that the Nazis were popular. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Andreas wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:58:25 +0100: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > My hunch is that the Nazis were popular. Well, they were democratically elected in 1933. So they must have been fairly popular. SignatureDavid > Andreas wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:58:25 +0100: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >My hunch is that the Nazis were popular. With his novel ideas, great speaking abilities and charisma, Hitler was wildly popular in the beginning with nearly everyone in the country, most especially with children and women, but we're all aware of that. Germany went into a deep recession after the Great War with its money increasingly valueless. By initiating construction projects such as the Autobahns and by putting people to work manufacturing Volkswagens and other goodies, Hitler pulled the country out of the quagmire. Naturally, people were thankful. Riding that wave of popularity, he got carried away soon thereafter, with his exuberance for expansion into other lands. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> Andreas wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:58:25 +0100: >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >popularity, he got carried away soon thereafter, with his exuberance >for expansion into other lands. You're getting your quagmires confused. The great German inflation reached its peak in 1923, and the man who dealt with it was Hjalmar Schacht, with the assistance of a number of politicians of the centre and centre-right (several of whom were Jewish). Hitler, not yet a major political figure, was in prison at the time, following the attempted Munich coup. What he dealt with was the consequences of the 1931 depression, which followed the relative prosperity of the middle Weimar years. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>> Andreas wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:58:25 +0100: >>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >Schacht, with the assistance of a number of politicians of the centre >and centre-right (several of whom were Jewish). Thank you for clearing that up, Don. Since bills of the inflationary years were easy to find in 1950's Germany, when I lived there, I collected various denominations and designs. Although they were worth next to nothing, they reached incredibly large printed values, with some bills indicating many millions of Marks. One of my more prized items was a beauty printed on silk, with an indicated value of several million Marks, presumably to make people think the higher intrinsic value of silk over paper represented a larger monetary amount than most bills of the time. >Hitler, not yet a >major political figure, was in prison at the time, following the >attempted Munich coup. What he dealt with was the consequences of the >1931 depression, which followed the relative prosperity of the middle >Weimar years. The depression didn't immediately follow Germany's defeat in WWI, then? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>>With his novel ideas, great speaking abilities and charisma, Hitler >>>was wildly popular in the beginning with nearly everyone in the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >make people think the higher intrinsic value of silk over paper >represented a larger monetary amount than most bills of the time. Bills/notes were certainly issued in denominations in the billions. However, the record-breaking inflation was not the German one, but the Hungarian one of about the same time, which involved denominations in the trillions. In both cases new bills/notes were issued every few days - at the peak, they simply overprinted old one with new values. The real killer was the *speed* of the inflation - as soon as you were paid you had to hurry straight to the shops with your wheelbarrow of currency and try to buy physical objects, which would retain more of their value. The next day was too late. Fixed incomes, of course, beacame totally worthless; all wages were index-linked. >>Hitler, not yet a >>major political figure, was in prison at the time, following the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >The depression didn't immediately follow Germany's defeat in WWI, >then? *A* depression did, but that was a much more minor affair. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" > Bills/notes were certainly issued in denominations in the billions. > However, the record-breaking inflation was not the German one, but the > Hungarian one of about the same time, which involved denominations in > the trillions. In both cases new bills/notes were issued every few > days - at the peak, they simply overprinted old one with new values. Zimbabwe's getting up there. According to Wikipedia, on January 16th, it announced that it was going to issue a $100 trillion note. But no, it's dwarfed by Hungary: Hungary went through the worst inflation ever between the end of 1945 and July 1946. In 1944, the highest denomination was 1,000 pengo. By the end of 1945, it was 10,000,000 pengo. The highest denomination in mid-1946 was 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 pengo. A special currency the adópengo - or tax pengo - was created for tax and postal payments. The value of the adópengo was adjusted each day, by radio announcement. On January 1, 1946 one adópengo equaled one pengo. By late July, one adópengo equaled 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 or 2×10^21 pengo. When the pengo was replaced in August 1946 by the forint, the total value of all Hungarian banknotes in circulation amounted to one-thousandth of one US dollar. It is the most severe known incident of inflation recorded, peaking at 1.3 × 10^16 percent per month (prices double every 15 hours). The overall impact of hyperinflation: On 18 August, 1946 400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 or 4×10^29 (four hundred octillion [ short scale ] ) pengo became 1 forint. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It is one thing to be mistaken; it is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |quite another to be willfully Palo Alto, CA 94304 |ignorant | Cecil Adams kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>>With his novel ideas, great speaking abilities and charisma, Hitler >>>>was wildly popular in the beginning with nearly everyone in the [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >the trillions. In both cases new bills/notes were issued every few >days - at the peak, they simply overprinted old one with new values. Yes, I had a number of quite ugly, overprinted ones in my collection. They generally used black ink for the new values so they could be easily read over the old values, but I was left with the impression of a panic since the printing was unGermanically sloppy. >The real killer was the *speed* of the inflation - as soon as you were >paid you had to hurry straight to the shops with your wheelbarrow of >currency and try to buy physical objects, which would retain more of >their value. The next day was too late. Fixed incomes, of course, >beacame totally worthless; all wages were index-linked. I've read that people were wallpapering their houses with the bills, they became so worthless. <snip> SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > With his novel ideas, great speaking abilities and charisma, Hitler > was wildly popular in the beginning with nearly everyone in the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > popularity, he got carried away soon thereafter, with his exuberance > for expansion into other lands. It was remarkable, considering that neither Britain nor America truly pulled themselves out of the Depression until about 1940. Still, it's a pity that so few had read Hitler's book in which he clearly explained his plan to take over eastern Europe. SignatureRob Bannister > [snip] Still, it's > a pity that so few had read Hitler's book in which he clearly > explained his plan to take over eastern Europe. I don't know. I really don't think Hitler's plans were unknown amongst international politicians of the time. Does anybody here know more about that, because I sure would like to know. /W SignatureMy real email address is constructed by swapping the domain with the recipient (local part). >On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:43:01 +0900 Robert Bannister ><robban1@bigpond.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Does anybody here know more about that, because I sure would like to >know. I am sure that what he had written and what he had said were known. But it wasn't believed, in British political circles at least, that he would actually do those things. You could divide the period between the two great wars into twelve or so years before Hitler actually achieved power, when he was essentially a troublesome opposition figure in a foreign country, followed by a shorter span when he did have power but the world was struggling with the economic depression. There was more to take action about than Herr Hitler, although his acts were certainly quite keenly observed. His leadership of Germany was quite admired by some British, though as a man he was often derided. It's a long time since I last did any serious reading on the subject, and I haven't the time to go back to my books just now. So perhaps I am wrong. SignaturePaul >>On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:43:01 +0900 Robert Bannister >><robban1@bigpond.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >and I haven't the time to go back to my books just now. So perhaps I am >wrong. I'm sure you are right. Even then it was taken for granted that politicians lied. For Hitler to do pretty well exactly what he had said he would do was as good a way as any of taking people by surprise. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>>On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:43:01 +0900 Robert Bannister >>><robban1@bigpond.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >said he would do was as good a way as any of taking people by >surprise. I could imagine that for people who had been through WWI there was a reluctance to think that anyone, including Hitler, would start another war, and a great but misplaced hope that he wouldn't. Hence Chamberlain waving his paper and trying appeasement. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:19:43 +0000, Don Aitken <don-aitken@freeuk.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >war, and a great but misplaced hope that he wouldn't. Hence >Chamberlain waving his paper and trying appeasement. And in the end it turned out that Hitler didn't start another general war: it was us. All Hitler did was to annex his neighbours one by one. We (British and French, essentially) were the ones who said right, that's enough, you've gone too far, now we'll fight you for it. SignaturePaul > And in the end it turned out that Hitler didn't start another general > war: it was us. All Hitler did was to annex his neighbours one by > one. We (British and French, essentially) were the ones who said > right, that's enough, you've gone too far, now we'll fight you for it. Not even that. Were it not for the nasty Japs, who knows what might have happened. SignatureSkitt (in WWII GI-German, to the tune of Sentimental Journey) Du nix wollen meine grosse Liebe, Du nur wollen Kaugummi ... >> And in the end it turned out that Hitler didn't start another general >> war: it was us. All Hitler did was to annex his neighbours one by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Not even that. Were it not for the nasty Japs, who knows what might have >happened. We can guess. We'd be writing to you in German, for starters. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > "Skitt" wrote: >>> And in the end it turned out that Hitler didn't start another >>> general war: it was us. All Hitler did was to annex his neighbours [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > We can guess. We'd be writing to you in German, for starters. Jawohl, and I might still be posting from Latvia. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>> And in the end it turned out that Hitler didn't start another >>>> general war: it was us. All Hitler did was to annex his neighbours [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> Not even that. Were it not for the nasty Japs, who knows what might >>> have happened. No, British and French actions at that point had nothing to do with the Japs. >> We can guess. We'd be writing to you in German, for starters. > > Jawohl, and I might still be posting from Latvia. Britain and Ireland would have gone on speaking English under collaborationist governments, and I presume Latvians would have been wiped out via slave labour. The Japs would have been free to help themselves to Australia and rub us out. SignatureMike. >>>>> And in the end it turned out that Hitler didn't start another >>>>> general war: it was us. All Hitler did was to annex his [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > No, British and French actions at that point had nothing to do with > the Japs. True, but without the US forces the outcome of the war might have been different. >>> We can guess. We'd be writing to you in German, for starters. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > collaborationist governments, and I presume Latvians would have been > wiped out via slave labour. Naah, Latvians were considered to be equal in stature to Germans. > The Japs would have been free to help > themselves to Australia and rub us out. SignatureSkitt (AmE) don't mention the war >>>>>> And in the end it turned out that Hitler didn't start another >>>>>> general war: it was us. All Hitler did was to annex his [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >True, but without the US forces the outcome of the war might have been >different. Indeed. Very different. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>> And in the end it turned out that Hitler didn't start another >>>>>> general war: it was us. All Hitler did was to annex his [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > True, but without the US forces the outcome of the war might have been > different. Sure. That's why I reckon we'd have been wiped out in Australia. >>>> We can guess. We'd be writing to you in German, for starters. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Naah, Latvians were considered to be equal in stature to Germans. Was that so right from the outset? Or (genuine question: I don't know) did the Latvians get useful later, like the Balkanites, as Germany needed more allies who had reason to fear the Russians? >> The Japs would have been free to help >> themselves to Australia and rub us out. SignatureMike. >>>>>>> And in the end it turned out that Hitler didn't start another >>>>>>> general war: it was us. All Hitler did was to annex his [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > did the Latvians get useful later, like the Balkanites, as Germany > needed more allies who had reason to fear the Russians? Right from the start. It is true, though, that Latvians were a great help in fighting the Soviets, who had occupied Latvia before the war started. The Soviets had inflicted great harm on the Latvians, so Germans were looked upon as liberators, which at the time they were. They saved our family from being deported to Siberia (a list with our family's name on it was found). SignatureSkitt (AmE) > > Britain and Ireland would have gone on speaking English under > > collaborationist governments, and I presume Latvians would have been > > wiped out via slave labour. > > Naah, Latvians were considered to be equal in stature to Germans. Being descendants of the Teutonic Knights and all. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) >Mike Lyle wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Naah, Latvians were considered to be equal in stature to Germans. A tall story if ever I heard one. SignaturePaul >>>>>> And in the end it turned out that Hitler didn't start another >>>>>> general war: it was us. All Hitler did was to annex his [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >True, but without the US forces the outcome of the war might have been >different. I suspect the Germans would have lost so long as the Americans kept supplying the Russians with materiel. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> And in the end it turned out that Hitler didn't start another general >> war: it was us. All Hitler did was to annex his neighbours one by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Not even that. Were it not for the nasty Japs, who knows what might have >happened. Which leads to the next great "what-if" question: What if Hitler had not subsequently gratuitously declared war on the USA (the Axis treaty did not require it)? That was why the USA responded with its own declaration of war; it's not clear that if Hitler had not take that step there would have been enough votes in Congress for war against Germany. After all, Germany had not made any overtly belligerent acts against the USA. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:43:01 +0900 Robert Bannister >>><robban1@bigpond.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >said he would do was as good a way as any of taking people by >surprise. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf while in prison for his abortive Munich uprising in 1923. By the time he became a serous national politician the book was pretty much regarded by everyone, including most Germans who bothered to read it as populist propaganda. It was figured to be rhetoric, electioneering and that if Hitler actually gained power pragmatism would lead him to temper his ideas, as it does to many radical sounding politicians. In short, no one took the book seriously until it was far too late. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >It was remarkable, considering that neither Britain nor America truly >pulled themselves out of the Depression until about 1940. Still, it's a >pity that so few had read Hitler's book in which he clearly explained >his plan to take over eastern Europe. I think that goes for almost everyone in Europe, especially the Russians. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >With his novel ideas, great speaking abilities and charisma, Hitler >was wildly popular in the beginning with nearly everyone in the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >popularity, he got carried away soon thereafter, with his exuberance >for expansion into other lands. I was pretty sure that the first autobahn was not built during the Hitler years and decided to check it out. Seems the first autobahn (not yet called by that nae) was between Koeln and Bonn and was opened in August 1932 by Koeln mayor Konrad Adenauer. I find this nicely ironic. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > >With his novel ideas, great speaking abilities and charisma, Hitler > >was wildly popular in the beginning with nearly everyone in the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > and was opened in August 1932 by Koeln mayor Konrad Adenauer. I > find this nicely ironic. You are spot on. Thing is, Hitler had great spin doctors (OK, he had Goebbels ... but probably more). They, at no trouble, bent the facts in Hitlers favor, stylizing him to be the genius inventor of the whole concept. What is true though is that "Hitler built the autobahn" to the extent is that under him, their construction was accelerated (need I mention the term "slave labor"?) and heavily advertised as a great achievement of the Third Reich. /W SignatureMy real email address is constructed by swapping the domain with the recipient (local part). >> >With his novel ideas, great speaking abilities and charisma, Hitler >> >was wildly popular in the beginning with nearly everyone in the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >mention the term "slave labor"?) and heavily advertised as a great >achievement of the Third Reich. I'm willing to grant him credit for establishing the extensive system of autobahnen even if the first one was built before his regime came to power, just as I credit Eisenhower for pushing the American Interstate Highway system even though similar highways had existed for some time. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen wrote on Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:39:41 -0700: >> >> With his novel ideas, great speaking abilities and >> >> charisma, Hitler was wildly popular in the beginning with [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> term "slave labor"?) and heavily advertised as a >> great achievement of the Third Reich. > I'm willing to grant him credit for establishing the extensive > system of autobahnen even if the first one was built before > his regime came to power, just as I credit Eisenhower for > pushing the American Interstate Highway system even though > similar highways had existed for some time. Yes, Eisenhower was in office 1953-1961 and the Pennsylvania Turnpike opened in 1940, enriching quite a lot of politicians and contractors. The Ohio Turnpike opened in Eisenhower's term and I remember driving on it when it was completed. That was 1959 but I don't know if that was the official date of completion. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Hatunen wrote on Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:39:41 -0700: > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >it when it was completed. That was 1959 but I don't know if that was the >official date of completion. The Interstate Highway act passed in 1956. The Ohio Turnpike took some land from my prep school which meatn we could go out and watch construction going on. That would have been 1953-54. But the Arroyo Seco Parkway (Pasadena Freeway) in Los Angeles opened in 1940. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > Hatunen wrote on Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:39:41 -0700: >>>> I was pretty sure that the first autobahn was not built >>>> during the Hitler years and decided to check it out. Seems [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >it when it was completed. That was 1959 but I don't know if that was the >official date of completion. The Ohio Turnpike took a chunk of land from my prep school in Hudson, Ohio, which meant we could go out and watch construction from time to time; that was in the 1953-54 school year. The Turnpike opned 1 Oct 1955. At that time Ohio had advance planning for an extensive system of autobahnen, including a dual-dual carriageway highway called the Three Cs, Conneaut, Columbus, Cincinnati, not to be confused with old Three-C highway, route OH-3. The Interstate Highway act didn't pass Congress until 1956. But there were other earlier such roads. The Arroyo Seco Parkway, cum Pasadena Freeway, was opened in 1940. And one of my favorite roads, the Taconic Parkway in New York, opened its first parts in 1932. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * ... > The Ohio Turnpike took a chunk of land from my prep school in > Hudson, Ohio, ... Look, Bob, another lantsman! It's my day for Hudson. I mentioned in physics class that I was from (suburban) Cleveland, and one of my students said he grew up in Hudson. His brother went to what I called WRA and he called Reserve. (For no sheep and without searching, what's the W for? Not you, Dave, I know you know.) -- Jerry Friedman "jerry_friedman@yahoo.com" <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote in news:c69c27bb-daa6-45b3-9053-85089518c01f@y1g2000pra.googlegroups.co m: > ... > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Reserve. (For no sheep and without searching, what's the W for? > Not you, Dave, I know you know.) Thanks for posing the question, Jerry. I supposed (without searching) that the "W" stands for "Western" (though I'm not sure about the "A". Academy?) But though I'd heard the name, I never knew *why* it was called that until just now, when I read for the first time about the Connecticut Western Reserve. Interesting stuff. It wouldn't have taken too many tweaks for the political geography of the Old Northwest to wind up looking a lot different from the way it turned out. Signaturerzed > "jerry_friedman@yahoo.com" <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote in > news:c69c27bb-daa6-45b3-9053-85089518c01f@y1g2000pra.googlegroups.co [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Northwest to wind up looking a lot different from the way it turned > out. Both my parents received degrees from WR, long before Case merged in. As noted, my son now lives just about walking distance from the campus. The very same son (I only have one, after all), botched a question many years ago on "It's Academic" (a show for high schoolers) that went something like this: "Which state had a Western Reserve in Ohio?" It had never occurred to me that the information would some day be useful to him. I was admitted to CWR law school but went elsewhere. So it goes. SignatureBob Lieblich Trying to feel SOME nostaliga for Cleveland >... > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >(For no sheep and without searching, what's the W for? Not you, Dave, >I know you know.) Ah. My alma mater. It's Western Reserve Academy, on the original site of Western Reserve College, now Western Reserve University. My senior dormitory was originally the lab of Edward Morely of Michelson-Morley fame. http://www.wra.net/ Lest anyone see those tuitions at that site, let it be known I was there on a full-tuition, room and board scholarship. There used to be a sort of annual marathon from the front of our campus to the Western Reserve University campus in Cleveland. For the Ohio-impaired, "western reserve" refers to the old colonial western reserve of the colony/state of Connecticut. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Western_Reserve There's still a strong New England feel to many of the towns. Hudson, a picturesque exurb of Cleveland and Akron, has a downtown common with white steepled church facing it on one side and the and the storefronts of the main drag facing it on the other. Hudson is a pretty upscale place, and the academy is fortunate enough to have most of the downtown in its endowment. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > > Yes, I should not have implied that English speakers would be able to quote the German name of the party. I certainly had > > to look it up. > > German familiar or affectionate diminutives tend to end in "i" or "zi". Witness "Otzi, the Ice Man" I have. He's very impressive, and I'd recommend anyone in the vicinity of Bolzano in the Alto Adige/Südtirol region to pop into the museum and witness him for yourselves. Mind you, at 9 Euro in, it's a tad pricey. DC -- >>> Yes, I should not have implied that English speakers would be able to quote the German name of the party. I certainly had >>> to look it up. >> >> German familiar or affectionate diminutives tend to end in "i" or "zi". Witness "Otzi, the Ice Man" > > I have. He's very impressive, and I'd recommend anyone in the vicinity of Bolzano in the Alto Adige/Südtirol region to pop into the museum and witness him for yourselves. Mind you, at 9 Euro in, it's a tad pricey. Hey, we've got our own Man, although he keeps getting kidnapped by those southerners. He's home in Manchester until April though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindow_Man SignatureDavid > >>> Yes, I should not have implied that English speakers would be able to quote the German name of the party. I certainly had > >>> to look it up. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindow_Man It's a dreadful exhibition, though. I enjoyed my visit to him in the British Museum, but the Manchester Museum was a let-down. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > the wrote on Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:57:04 GMT: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Witness "Otzi, the Ice Man" and "Wessi" and "Ossi" for West and East > Germans. True, but German, before the advent of the modern curse of acronyms and abbreviations, traditionally shortened names with syllables rather than letters. Today most people only remember Nazi, Gestapo or the E. German Grepo and Stasi. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>> Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" >>>> Bollocks. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Yes, I should not have implied that English speakers would be able to > quote the German name of the party. I certainly had to look it up. Let's try it the other way around: Who here did not already know who the National Socialists in mid-20th-century Germany were, and the short name by which they are commonly known? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Let's try it the other way around: Who here did not already know who the > National Socialists in mid-20th-century Germany were, and the short name by > which they are commonly known? The "mid-20th-century" would throw me, but I would probably answer correctly if someone sprang this question on me. (Under what circumstance would that happen, I wonder.) SignatureSML >> Let's try it the other way around: Who here did not already know who the >> National Socialists in mid-20th-century Germany were, and the short name [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > correctly if someone sprang this question on me. (Under what > circumstance would that happen, I wonder.) I hesitated over that myself, but decided that "later early 20th century" or "second half of the first half of the 20th century" was a bit much of a muchness. I should have written something a bit clearer, such as "Germany in the 1930s and 40s" or "Germany after the First World War". "Germany during the Hitler era" would be a bit of a giveaway, but possibly the clearest of all. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. On 25 Jan 2009, Roland Hutchinson wrote >>> Let's try it the other way around: Who here did not already >>> know who the National Socialists in mid-20th-century Germany [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > century" or "second half of the first half of the 20th century" > was a bit much of a muchness. I've read historical reports which use "the Xth quarter of the Yth century", which works OK for me. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 25 Jan 2009, Roland Hutchinson wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I've read historical reports which use "the Xth quarter of the Yth >century", which works OK for me. Please don't do that again, Harvey. I have just discovered that there's nothing quite so time-wastingly pointless as puzzling over the proper division of a century into ten quarters. SignaturePaul On 25 Jan 2009, Paul Wolff wrote >> On 25 Jan 2009, Roland Hutchinson wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > there's nothing quite so time-wastingly pointless as puzzling > over the proper division of a century into ten quarters. Ummm...calculating in base 2.5, maybe? SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 25 Jan 2009, Roland Hutchinson wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I've read historical reports which use "the Xth quarter of the Yth > century", which works OK for me. Second quarter it is, then. Not really one of the better 25 years within living memory, all things considered, was it? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. On 25 Jan 2009, Roland Hutchinson wrote >> On 25 Jan 2009, Roland Hutchinson wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Second quarter it is, then. Not really one of the better 25 > years within living memory, all things considered, was it? Haven't really thought about that, but it's probably one of the contenders for the all-comers trophy. Reminds me of a discussion I had a while back, though, when I challenged the often-expressed view that people in the 20th century saw greater change in their lifetimes than any earlier age: I might vote for someone who lived, say, from 1780 to 1860 as having seen at least as much change as someone who lived 1900-80, or 1920- 2000. (I'm basing that on fundamental changes -- canals, gas light, steam power, trains, penny-post, telegraphs, plate-glass to any size, that sort of thing. A lot of the equivalent 20th century changes strike me as being changes of degree rather than kind.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 25 Jan 2009, Roland Hutchinson wrote >>> On 25 Jan 2009, Roland Hutchinson wrote [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > that sort of thing. A lot of the equivalent 20th century changes > strike me as being changes of degree rather than kind.) WIWAL, another one was "there are more living scientists now than there were (now deceased) scientists in all of history". SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. [...] >> Reminds me of a discussion I had a while back, though, when I >> challenged the often-expressed view that people in the 20th century [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > WIWAL, another one was "there are more living scientists now than > there were (now deceased) scientists in all of history". I read somewhere that there are now more living than dead people, regardless of vocation. Can this be true? (If so, it marks the death of a now admittedly uncommon expression for dying: "Join the majority".) SignatureMike. > I read somewhere that there are now more living than dead people, > regardless of vocation. Can this be true? (If so, it marks the death of > a now admittedly uncommon expression for dying: "Join the majority".) No, it can't. It's so far from true that it's difficult to know why it became a popular myth. Taking "humans" as having emerged 50,000 years ago, there have been something between 10 and 30 times the current number of 6 billion humans who have lived up to now. SignatureDavid > > I read somewhere that there are now more living than dead people, > > regardless of vocation. Can this be true? (If so, it marks the death of > > a now admittedly uncommon expression for dying: "Join the majority".) > > No, it can't. �It's so far from true that it's difficult to know why it > became a popular myth. Because it seems credible. The demographic explosion of the last century might have upset the progressive balance of populaton growth. >�Taking "humans" as having emerged 50,000 years > ago, there have been something between 10 and 30 times the current > number of 6 billion humans who have lived up to now. That's also speculative reasoning. Nobody counted each head one by one. >>> I read somewhere that there are now more living than dead people, >>> regardless of vocation. Can this be true? (If so, it marks the death of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > That's also speculative reasoning. Nobody counted each head one by one. Yes, but you make it sound like stabbing in the dark. It's an estimate based on reasonable assumptions. Rather than paraphrasing, there's a detailed examination of this issue here: http://www.prb.org/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx They estimate that 47 billion had already lived by 1 AD, and another 46 billion before 1900. They're all dead now. Something like 9 billion were born during the 20th Century. At least 3 billion of those must now be dead. I don't believe they are so wrong as to have overestimated by a factor of nearly 20. SignatureDavid >>>> I read somewhere that there are now more living than dead people, >>>> regardless of vocation. Can this be true? (If so, it marks the death of [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >I don't believe they are so wrong as to have overestimated by a factor >of nearly 20. An independent estimate made more than thirty years earlier says much the same: "Behind every man now alive stand thirty ghosts, for that is the ratio by which the dead outnumber the living". First sentence of the Foreward to "2001: A Space Odyssey" by Clarke & Kubrick, published 1968. So, not a particularly obscure peice of information. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" > On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:36:13 GMT, the Omrud > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > "Behind every man now alive stand thirty ghosts, for that is the ratio > by which the dead outnumber the living". Right, but many thigs happened during those more than thirty years, one being spectacular progress in medicine in both directions: 1. extending man's life span from 48 to 70 and 2. curing infertility. Couples who were childless thirty years ago, now, in their seventies, are the happy parents of quadruplets. > First sentence of the Foreward to "2001: A Space Odyssey" by Clarke & > Kubrick, published 1968. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >> On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:36:13 GMT, the Omrud >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Couples who were childless thirty years ago, now, in their seventies, > are the happy parents of quadruplets. The extension of life expectation doesn't reduce the number of people who have lived and died in the past, and the effect on the world's population of infertility treatment must be minuscule since such intervention is not available to the vast majority. I come back to the basic fact that it's not even close. If there were 60 billion alive now then there might be room for discussion of the details. But of course if there were 60 billion alive now the there would have been 40 billion alive 100 years ago and the premise would fall in any case. SignatureDavid > >> On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:36:13 GMT, the Omrud > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > population of infertility treatment must be minuscule since such > intervention is not available to the vast majority. My totally scientific rebuttal was addressed to the first sentence of that SF novel. > I come back to the basic fact that it's not even close. �If there were > 60 billion alive now then there might be room for discussion of the > details. �But of course if there were 60 billion alive now the there > would have been 40 billion alive 100 years ago and the premise would > fall in any case. Right, but you conveniently omit to take into account the huge number of illegal immigrants, the stowaways and the students who skip classes all over the world regardless of their religion >>>>>>>> I read somewhere that there are now more living than dead people, >>>>>>>> regardless of vocation. Can this be true? (If so, it marks the death of [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > My totally scientific rebuttal was addressed to the first sentence of > that SF novel. Sure, so now it's 20 ghosts. >> I come back to the basic fact that it's not even close. �If there were >> 60 billion alive now then there might be room for discussion of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of illegal immigrants, the stowaways and the students who skip classes > all over the world regardless of their religion Er, now you've lost me. The Earth is pretty-well a closed system, proofed against immigration, or indeed emigration (other than by birth and death). SignatureDavid [...] >> Right, but you conveniently omit to take into account the huge number >> of illegal immigrants, the stowaways and the students who skip classes [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > proofed against immigration, or indeed emigration (other than by birth > and death). Now and then someone slips through the defences: <http://www.alienandufopictures.com/> SignatureLes (BrE) > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > <http://www.alienandufopictures.com/> I thank you very much, it's extremely informative. When I read the title "Help us collect evidence" I felt a civic duty to volunteer for that honorable organization and thus dedicate my time and energy for the science. [...] >> Right, but you conveniently omit to take into account the huge number >> of illegal immigrants, the stowaways and the students who skip [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > proofed against immigration, or indeed emigration (other than by birth > and death). Perhaps it makes sense in the PG dialect of Choctaw. SignatureMike. >>>> I read somewhere that there are now more living than dead people, >>>> regardless of vocation. Can this be true? (If so, it marks the death of [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >were born during the 20th Century. At least 3 billion of those must now >be dead. That particular article seems to overlook the fact that about 50K to 75K years ago the human population had shrunk to a mere few thousand individuals in Africa. When dealing with exponential growth curves one can get odd results. For instance, if I go to a casino with a lot of money, and keep doubling my bet, each bet will be greater than the sum of all my previous bets. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > I read somewhere that there are now more living than dead people, > regardless of vocation. Can this be true? (If so, it marks the death of > a now admittedly uncommon expression for dying: "Join the majority".) Ooooh! Back on topic! It idly occurred to me the other night as I was going to sleep that it's been many years since I heard "kick the bucket" as a euphemism for death. Not that the expression ever made much sense in the first place. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >> I read somewhere that there are now more living than dead people, >> regardless of vocation. Can this be true? (If so, it marks the death of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >for death. Not that the expression ever made much sense in the >first place. Wiktionary list three theories for its origin: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kick_the_bucket SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > It idly occurred to me the other night as I was going to sleep that > it's been many years since I heard "kick the bucket" as a euphemism > for death. Not that the expression ever made much sense in the > first place. I take it that you didn't watch the recent film "Bucket List". Fran > > It idly occurred to me the other night as I was going to sleep that > > it's been many years since I heard "kick the bucket" as a euphemism > > for death. �Not that the expression ever made much sense in the > > first place. > > I take it that you didn't watch the recent film "Bucket List". I did. The plot was very poorely built, first narrated by one character, then by the other who was already dead, as he supposedly "remembered" the sequence of events before and after his death. >> > It idly occurred to me the other night as I was going to sleep that >> > it's been many years since I heard "kick the bucket" as a euphemism [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >character, then by the other who was already dead, as he supposedly >"remembered" the sequence of events before and after his death. Some quite good movies have been narrated by dead characters. Sunset Boulevard and Amerian Beauty come to mind. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >>> I take it that you didn't watch the recent film "Bucket List". >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Some quite good movies have been narrated by dead characters. >Sunset Boulevard and Amerian Beauty come to mind. I've noticed a lot of this in biographical pics lately...first one I recall was "All That Jazz", then "De-Lovely" and "Beyond the Sea", culminating in "Ray".... They came perilously close to parodying it in "Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>> > It idly occurred to me the other night as I was going to sleep that >>> > it's been many years since I heard "kick the bucket" as a euphemism [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Some quite good movies have been narrated by dead characters. >Sunset Boulevard and Amerian Beauty come to mind. While the shark-jumping has already occurred, "Desperate Housewives" is narrated by a dead character. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> I read somewhere that there are now more living than dead people, >> regardless of vocation. Can this be true? (If so, it marks the death of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >for death. Not that the expression ever made much sense in the >first place. Popping one's clogs seems to be more popular. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Second quarter it is, then. Not really one of the better 25 years within > living memory, all things considered, was it? Hang on: a lot of AUE readers were born in that period, although I suppose they didn't know they were AUE readers at the time. SignatureRob Bannister >> Second quarter it is, then. Not really one of the better 25 years within >> living memory, all things considered, was it? > > Hang on: a lot of AUE readers were born in that period, although I > suppose they didn't know they were AUE readers at the time. Most of them seem to be having a better time of it in their third or fourth quarter-century than they were then, however. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> On 25 Jan 2009, Roland Hutchinson wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Second quarter it is, then. Not really one of the better 25 years within > living memory, all things considered, was it? To my mind, roughly 1990 to the present has been worse, at least as far as totally mindless killing - Bosnia, Rwanda, Sudan, Middle East... - and this time, there seems to be no end in sight. SignatureRob Bannister >>> On 25 Jan 2009, Roland Hutchinson wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >as totally mindless killing - Bosnia, Rwanda, Sudan, Middle East... - >and this time, there seems to be no end in sight. I remember having a discussion similar to this a few years ago (Evan was part of it) in which I thought that there'd probably not been a single day in my lifetime when innocent people were not being killed somewhere or other in a declared or undeclared war. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >> To my mind, roughly 1990 to the present has been worse, at least as far >> as totally mindless killing - Bosnia, Rwanda, Sudan, Middle East... - [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > single day in my lifetime when innocent people were not being killed > somewhere or other in a declared or undeclared war. On the other hand, (discounting the bomb that fell outside our house when I was three) in what other era could I have spent a lifetime without being personally involved in a war? SignatureRob Bannister > >> To my mind, roughly 1990 to the present has been worse, at least > >> as far as totally mindless killing - Bosnia, Rwanda, Sudan, Middle [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > when I was three) in what other era could I have spent a lifetime > without being personally involved in a war? If "I" is to mean "any human" then the answer is "never, ever (not even now)". /W SignatureMy real email address is constructed by swapping the domain with the recipient (local part). > > On the other hand, (discounting the bomb that fell outside our house > > when I was three) in what other era could I have spent a lifetime > > without being personally involved in a war? > > If "I" is to mean "any human" then the answer is "never, ever (not > even now)". Perhaps it depends on what is meant by "personally involved" but I think I qualify. Born in 1935, too young for ww2, in school during Korea, too old for VietNam, and all the time thousands of miles from the nearest actual warfare. The closest I came to personal involvement was when my father's ship was torpedoed in WW2, but he survived the war in good health. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email > > > On the other hand, (discounting the bomb that fell outside our > > > house when I was three) in what other era could I have spent a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > involvement was when my father's ship was torpedoed in WW2, but he > survived the war in good health. Don't be so sure. There is a lot of suffering in the world, and a lot of instruments of power easily obtained. I'm pretty "confident" that I'll experience a war (or at least a great unsettling) in my lifetime (I'm 25) and it might just be that you'll do as well. /W SignatureMy real email address is constructed by swapping the domain with the recipient (local part). >>> On the other hand, (discounting the bomb that fell outside our house >>> when I was three) in what other era could I have spent a lifetime [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > involvement was when my father's ship was torpedoed in WW2, but he > survived the war in good health. I too was never personally involved, but I witnessed night air raids in Riga, and I saw the Soviet soldiers retreating through our back yard in Ogre. Near the end of the war, my mother, my sister, and I left Riga for Gotenhafen in August of 1944, aboard the Monte Rosa. My dad joined us later, in October, and his ship was attacked by the Soviets, but it escaped with only minor damage. We were living in Cabarz when the land changed hands, but escaped further west just before East Germany was created. The American soldier, whose deeds and efforts resulted in our immigration to the USA, is still alive, living in Marin county. http://www.feldgrau.com/hs-monterosa.html SignatureSkitt (in SF Bay Area) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > > Second quarter it is, then. Not really one of the better 25 years > > within living memory, all things considered, was it? > > To my mind, roughly 1990 to the present has been worse, at least as > far as totally mindless killing - Bosnia, Rwanda, Sudan, Middle > East... - and this time, there seems to be no end in sight. Maybe, but then again, they didn't call it "World War" for nothing. I daren't say if these times are worse than those back then. More unstable perhaps. OTOH, how can you judge objectively how "bad" some time is, really? /W SignatureMy real email address is constructed by swapping the domain with the recipient (local part). >To my mind, roughly 1990 to the present has been worse, at least as far >as totally mindless killing - Bosnia, Rwanda, Sudan, Middle East... - >and this time, there seems to be no end in sight. Is there more killing, or are we just more aware of the killing because of media coverage? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>To my mind, roughly 1990 to the present has been worse, at least as far >>as totally mindless killing - Bosnia, Rwanda, Sudan, Middle East... - >>and this time, there seems to be no end in sight. > >Is there more killing, or are we just more aware of the killing >because of media coverage? Rob was talking about mindless killing, of which there may be more, although I wouldn't put the Middle East wars in that category, as he did, for the Palestinian side has a Cause and Israel needs to defend itself from endless bombardment. The killing during WWI, WWII, America's Korean War and perhaps its war with Vietnam, along with Ireland's Troubles, weren't mindless, IMO. How often, in fact, do men and women ever go to war, shed blood and risk losing their lives and lives of loved ones for no reason? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland [Twentieth Century] > > Second quarter it is, then. Not really one of the better 25 years within > > living memory, all things considered, was it? > > To my mind, roughly 1990 to the present has been worse, at least as far > as totally mindless killing - Bosnia, Rwanda, Sudan, Middle East... - > and this time, there seems to be no end in sight. I don't quite know what you mean by "mindless", but if Stalin's purges and Hitler's camps qualify, each killed many times more people than the total of the conflicts you named. Then some of the killing in World War II may have been mindless. -- Jerry Friedman > [Twentieth Century] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -- > Jerry Friedman Don't omit what the Japanese did in China and elsewhere. Your .sig seems to be broken. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >>> On 25 Jan 2009, Roland Hutchinson wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >To my mind, roughly 1990 to the present has been worse, at least as far >as totally mindless killing - Bosnia, Rwanda, Sudan, Middle East... - Zimbabwe >and this time, there seems to be no end in sight. We still haven't seen the Big One between Russia and America that has been hatching all these years. To make things more interesting, China, North Korea and Iran may enter the fray. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> > Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Younger Americans, and Americans who have not attended college, may >not know that there is a full version. Considering the widespread application of the term "Nazi" to situations for which it is not appropriate (not to mention "fascist", it appears they (and not just Americans) do now know what either of those terms actually means, either. Phrases like "soup Nazi" do a great disservice to those who actually suffered under Nazism. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>> Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" >>>> Bollocks. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Phrases like "soup Nazi" do a great disservice to those who > actually suffered under Nazism. Is that because of temporal proximity? How about "thug"? Many people were brutally killed by the Thuggee, but we now use "thug" to refer to minor criminals. SignatureDavid > Younger Americans, and Americans who have not attended college, may > not know that there is a full version. � Those younger people might not even know what "GOP" stands for, but they sure know what is "LOL". Arcadian Rises filted: >On Jan 24, 10:55=EF=BF=BDam, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wro= >te: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Those younger people might not even know what "GOP" stands for, but >they sure know what is "LOL". I'm not convinced that they even know it's an abbreviation....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >Arcadian Rises filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >I'm not convinced that they even know it's an abbreviation....r Since it can substitute for either "lots of luck" or "laughing out loud", and it is often not clear which, it is a dodgy abbreviation at best. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>Arcadian Rises filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >loud", and it is often not clear which, it is a dodgy abbreviation at >best. Quite, and there are people who might read it as "lots of love" or Loyal Orange Lodge. James >>Arcadian Rises filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >loud", and it is often not clear which, it is a dodgy abbreviation at >best. And "Lots of Love". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>Arcadian Rises filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > And "Lots of Love". I think it's mostly Little Old Ladies who read it that way. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |English is about as pure as a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |cribhouse whore. We don't just Palo Alto, CA 94304 |borrow words; on occasion, English |has pursued other languages down kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |alleyways to beat them unconscious (650)857-7572 |and rifle their pockets for new |vocabulary. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | --James D. Nicoll >>>>Arcadian Rises filted: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >I think it's mostly Little Old Ladies who read it that way. Don't forget us Lascivious Old Layabouts. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > > Younger Americans, and Americans who have not attended college, may > > not know that there is a full version. > > Those younger people might not even know what "GOP" stands for, but > they sure know what is "LOL". The first time I saw LOL I thought it stood for Little Old Lady. SignatureJohn Varela Trade OLD lamps for NEW for email >> > Younger Americans, and Americans who have not attended college, may >> > not know that there is a full version. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The first time I saw LOL I thought it stood for Little Old Lady. The first time I saw LOL it _did_ stand for Little Old Lady. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson filted: >>> > Younger Americans, and Americans who have not attended college, may >>> > not know that there is a full version. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >The first time I saw LOL it _did_ stand for Little Old Lady. You people are frightening me...I nearly wrote both of the last two installments in this thread exactly as they appeared with someone else's name on them....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > installments in this thread exactly as they appeared with someone else's > name on them....r It is possible, or at least credible, that we have all been reading each other's prose for _much_ too long. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" > >Bollocks. I'm sure it is not bollocks, for how many people study etymology? "Most people" refers to the majority of the people on Earth, remember, in all age groups. It is probably safe to say that most people are not only ignorant but dismally ignorant about the etymology of most words, "Nazi" included. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >>> Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" >> Bollocks. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > only ignorant but dismally ignorant about the etymology of most words, > "Nazi" included. That is true, I suppose. I was taking a narrower view of "most people", as I suspect was the OP. SignatureDavid >>>> Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" >>> Bollocks. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >That is true, I suppose. I was taking a narrower view of "most people", >as I suspect was the OP. Not to worry, for it is easy to maintain an elevated view of humanity in the rarefied air of AUE. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >> Most people do not know the etymology of the shorthand slang "Nazi" > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > only ignorant but dismally ignorant about the etymology of most words, > "Nazi" included. I didn't learn etymology at school, but the Nazis and where the name came from was taught to us in O level history. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary |
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