 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2009'An historical'
What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'?  SignatureThere are two extremes of beauty in the universe. One is the abhorrent lack of empathy among conscious beings, and the other is the splendor of orderly perfection in the laws of nature. > What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? Depends on how you say "historical". I'd usually go with "a historical". I like my aitches. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? In some accents the 'h' would not be pronounced. For these accents the first one would be natural. I now wonder which accents that would be. Jamaican comes to mind and the English working class accents. Any others? /W SignatureMy real email address is constructed by swapping the domain with the recipient (local part). > What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? "A historical" is fine everywhere. "An historical" is natural to some people, particularly but not only in Britain, even if they pronounce the "h". In the U.S., people may think you're trying to sound British. If you say or write "an historical study" but "a hilarious joke" or "a Hawaiian shirt", people anywhere may think you're being pretentious. -- Jerry Friedman >> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > historical study" but "a hilarious joke" or "a Hawaiian shirt", people > anywhere may think you're being pretentious. Interesting. I do put "an" before historical, hilarious and Hawaiian. I'll add hotel and harangue to that list but not hat, hamburger, hemisphere or horrible. I don't drop my aitches and I have no idea why I use "an" before a small subset of aspirated aitch words and not the others. It feels very odd to try to use "a" instead, though. (NZE) >>> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > (NZE) I say an historical, an horrific, but a Hawaiian, a hotel and a hilarious. It's just the way it slips out. (NZE) > > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: > >>> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > (NZE) Well, I'm not calling you pretentious. But I do suspect the origin of these pronunciations is a feeling that "historical", "horrific", probably "heroic", etc., are dignified words that call for the older pronunciation, while "Hawaiian", "hotel", and "hilarious" are ordinary words that don't. Here in America, we often get "an Hispanic" (with an aspirated h), which I think results either from a confusion of languages or from the speaker's desire to stress his deep, really profound, possibly genuine respect for Hispanic people. -- Jerry Friedman On Jan 26, 6:13 am, "Tasha Miller" <tashamill...@gEEEmail.com.invalid> wrote: > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: > >> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > small subset of aspirated aitch words and not the others. It feels very odd > to try to use "a" instead, though. Me too. Will. Tasha Miller filted: >>> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >small subset of aspirated aitch words and not the others. It feels very odd >to try to use "a" instead, though. The secondary rule, which would seem to account for the subset of h-initial words you provide, is that "an" precedes a word beginning with "h" if the first syllable of that word is unstressed...thus "an hepatic coma" and "an heuristic procedure" as well.... Your list matches mine exactly..."a historical" sounds as strange to me as would "a other"....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" >>> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > (NZE) The h is dropped, necessitating "an", only when the stress falls on the second syllable. So that's why you don't use "an" before hat, hamburger, hemisphere and horrible. Alan Jones > > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: > >>> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Alan Jones In the US the only dropped H is "herb" (and only for some), so "an herb" is passable, but it's still a bit silly. Nobody here says "an 'orrible" or "an 'awaiian" - that sounds like "un-Hawaiian". > In the US the only dropped H is "herb" (and only for some), You hear a different sort than I do. Most of us seem to drop it in "hour" and "honor" and probably a couple of others. Of course, we don't really "drop" it, the word doesn't have it for us in the first place (except in writing). > so "an herb" is passable, but it's still a bit silly. Not using "an" in front of those words that don't start with /h/ doesn't seem silly at all. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Never ascribe to malice that which 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can adequately be explained by Palo Alto, CA 94304 |stupidity. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> In the US the only dropped H is "herb" (and only for some), > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Not using "an" in front of those words that don't start with /h/ > doesn't seem silly at all. I agree. But in a state of flux, "a homage", "an homage". >>>> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the second syllable. So that's why you don't use "an" before hat, > hamburger, hemisphere and horrible. I can see I wasn't very clear. I don't drop the 'h' after the 'an'. It's aspirated more weakly than if I read down a list of the words but it's definitely still spoken. I think you and Mr Draney are right about the second syllable stress. It's good to know the likely reason! [...] >> The h is dropped, necessitating "an", only when the stress falls on >> the second syllable. So that's why you don't use "an" before hat, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > but it's definitely still spoken. I think you and Mr Draney are right > about the second syllable stress. It's good to know the likely reason! I'm with Tasha /and/ Alan on this. I say "an historical" with a very weak aspiration, but "a history" with full aspiration. To the best of my knowledge, "historical" is the only word which gets this treatment in my speech. As for "hotel", I don't sound the "h" at all: I seem to have been brought up to regard it as a non-naturalized French word, though I spell it the English way. SignatureMike. Mike Lyle filted: >[...] >>> The h is dropped, necessitating "an", only when the stress falls on [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >been brought up to regard it as a non-naturalized French word, though I >spell it the English way. "a history book" but "an historic book" "a horrible grimace" but "an horrific grimace" "a hospital meal" but "an hospitable meal" The second-syllable-stress rule seems to explain much....r Signature"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!" "You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!" > Mike Lyle filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > The second-syllable-stress rule seems to explain much....r Yes and my list is still matching exactly with yours. Hotel is also on mine because I've been aware for some time that I don't try to use the French pronunciation for hotel unless it is within a French name or phrase. So it still has that weak "h" when preceded by "an". >> Mike Lyle filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > French pronunciation for hotel unless it is within a French name or > phrase. So it still has that weak "h" when preceded by "an". Hintersting! The "h" is definitely weak (but present) when I say "an historical", but that's the only word from the above examples that I am at all tempted to precede with "an". My gut is telling me that I am not atypical of AmE speakers, but I wouldn't want to assert it more strongly than that without evidence. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. On Jan 26, 4:20 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > [...] > >> The h is dropped, necessitating "an", only when the stress falls on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > knowledge, "historical" is the only word which gets this treatment in my > speech. Does that mean "historic" and "historian" don't? That would be a new one on me. If you mean the derivatives of "history" are all in this category, that would be more familiar. > As for "hotel", I don't sound the "h" at all: I seem to have > been brought up to regard it as a non-naturalized French word, though I > spell it the English way. I'm not sure that follows, unless you feel you regard "hour" and "honest" as non-naturalized French words. For me, they're just words with silent h's. -- Jerry Friedman > On Jan 26, 4:20 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > one on me. If you mean the derivatives of "history" are all in this > category, that would be more familiar. I noticed the omission as I drifted to sleep last night. Yes, I do treat "historic" and "historian" the same way. >> As for "hotel", I don't sound the "h" at all: I seem to have >> been brought up to regard it as a non-naturalized French word, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "honest" as non-naturalized French words. For me, they're just words > with silent h's. No, I really do think of "hotel" as more French than English: no clear idea why. And I do, of course, pronounce "hour" and "honour" and their friends and relations without an "h". SignatureMike. >>> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > a small subset of aspirated aitch words and not the others. It feels very > odd to try to use "a" instead, though. I used to say "an historical" likewise without dropping the aitch. I think I mostly say "a historical" now, having been perhaps unduly influenced by the norms of formal written English while (or, as Americans who have spent too much time reading articlea in the New Grove are wont to say, whilst) being trained as a historian of music. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? Depends on whether the "h" is silent. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? What I find amusing is that those people who say "an historical" do not use "an" in front of hick, hidden, higgledy-piggledy, hill, hymn, hint, hiss or hit. SignatureRob Bannister > > What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? > > What I find amusing is that those people who say "an historical" do not > use "an" in front of hick, hidden, higgledy-piggledy, hill, hymn, hint, > hiss or hit. But they do before "halibut". Anyway, that's been explained--some people only use "an" when the first syllable isn't accented. Now "hilarious", on the other hand... -- Jerry Friedman >>> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? >> What I find amusing is that those people who say "an historical" do not >> use "an" in front of hick, hidden, higgledy-piggledy, hill, hymn, hint, >> hiss or hit. > > But they do before "halibut". That's one I had never come across till now. > Anyway, that's been explained--some people only use "an" when the > first syllable isn't accented. Now "hilarious", on the other hand... Explained, but I still don't find it reasonable. Still, in the end, it's a bit like that thread about "the" - whichever we pick - a/an, thu/thee - it is rarely a conscious choice. These a very "little" words - not quite unimportant, but certainly not the words our attention is fixed on when we are speaking, so we come out with whatever pops into our mouths. It is, of course, not entirely random - although few English speakers would actually be aware of a rule, we do have speech patterns learned through contact with our family, friends and peers, but these are subject to variation, and I would not like to call them lapses. SignatureRob Bannister > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: > >>> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > That's one I had never come across till now. Sorry, Monty Python reference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnq96W9jtuw about 1:24, or http://www.orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/fish.htm The "h" isn't pronounced as clearly as I remember. > > Anyway, that's been explained--some people only use "an" when the > > first syllable isn't accented. Now "hilarious", on the other hand... > > Explained, but I still don't find it reasonable. Well, if people notice that they use "an" before aspirated "h" if and only if the first syllable of the "h" word is unstressed, then the pattern is real, whether it's reasonable or not. On the other hand, my "explained" may have been too strong a word. > Still, in the end, it's > a bit like that thread about "the" - whichever we pick - a/an, thu/thee [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > through contact with our family, friends and peers, but these are > subject to variation, and I would not like to call them lapses. I can't agree in this case. I fairly often hear Americans saying "AN historic" with unnatural care, as if they would say "a historic" except that it doesn't suit the dignity of the subject. It's not a lapse--it is, in my opinion, misguided and pretentious. If those people's children pick it up and it becomes natural to them, that's a different matter. -- Jerry Friedman >> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: >> >>> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >people's children pick it up and it becomes natural to them, that's a >different matter. What if we already are the people's children who said it? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:28:38 -0800 (PST), "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > What if we already are the people's children who said it? That's a different matter. Specifically, not misguided or pretentious any more (though some people may hear it that way), since you ask my opinion. -- Jerry Friedman >> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:28:38 -0800 (PST), "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" >> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >any more (though some people may hear it that way), since you ask my >opinion. On giving this more consideration, "an historic" may be the only example of a term where my aspiration varies with the occasion. When I particularly want to emphasize the importance of a date, I probably hesitate slightly between the words, then sound the h. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland >> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? > > What I find amusing is that those people who say "an historical" do > not use "an" in front of hick, hidden, higgledy-piggledy, hill, hymn, > hint, hiss or hit. I find in funny more in the funny peculiar sense than the amusing kind. Enough of us are reporting that we do this for it to be obvious, to me at least, it's yet another one of those little habits of language that (some) native speakers adopt without realising they are doing it. This one doesn't seem to be regional but perhaps we have something in common in other ways. Many years ago my husband's aunt visited us while we were still living in New Zealand. She is a native of Hull in Yorkshire and apart from saying she thought her brother and sister-in-law now sounded 'posh' she noticed immediately that the NZers she'd met all pronounced "quarter" as "korter" rather than "kworter". Obviously she can't have met that many kiwis but I'm fairly certain she was right about how widespread that pronunciation is. Caught, court and quart are homophones in my speech. > > What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? > > What I find amusing is that those people who say "an historical" do not > use "an" in front of hick, hidden, higgledy-piggledy, hill, hymn, hint, > hiss or hit. I was taught (during my Devonian age schooldays) that this was THE exception and that saying "a historic(al)" would label one as unedjukaytid. >>> What is the correct usage here: 'an historical,' or 'a historical'? >> What I find amusing is that those people who say "an historical" do not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > exception and that saying "a historic(al)" would label one as > unedjukaytid. I was taught ( 196/70s UK ) that the rule also applied to hotel. SignaturePhilip Morten On Jan 29, 6:35 pm, Philip Morten <philip.mor...@btinternet.com> > > I was taught (during my Devonian age schooldays) that this was THE > > exception and that saying "a historic(al)" would label one as > > unedjukaytid. > > I was taught ( 196/70s UK ) that the rule also applied to hotel. Said with a silent 'h'? An 'otel? On Jan 29, 6:35 pm, Philip Morten <philip.mor...@btinternet.com> > > I was taught (during my Devonian age schooldays) that this was THE > > exception and that saying "a historic(al)" would label one as > > unedjukaytid. > > I was taught ( 196/70s UK ) that the rule also applied to hotel. Said with a silent 'h'? An 'otel? ------ Of course (taught UK, 1940s) Alan Jones |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.