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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009What are Wal-Mart Greeters?
A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? Taken from a nutty poster (a fanatical Ron Paul follower it seems) who infests the ebooks groups with longish Subject headers like "D.C has converted the U.S. into a Nation of Wal-Mart Greeters <real subject>" (or idem comments about Obama, Bush, trillions of debt, hyperinflation) Anyway, what is a 'Wal Mart greeter' and why it is supposed to be bad that them evil guys in Washington have converted the USA into a nation of them? Jan >A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Jan People who greet you at the door. http://www.nwaonline.net/articles/2005/01/21/wal_-_mart/50greeters.txt >A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >and why it is supposed to be bad that them evil guys in Washington >have converted the USA into a nation of them? Wal Mart employs elderly men and women to stand by the doors and greet people with a friendly "Hello" when they walk in the door. They also direct people to the Returns and Exchanges desk if necessary, and request that knapsacks and other carriers be checked before entering the store. The job is minimum wage, but Wal Mart never has trouble filling open positions. Many older people really want to have contact with other people, a function in life, and an extra income. I don't see the "evil" aspect. The Greeters are not being exploited. They take the job because they want something to do with their time and to have some human contact. They seem to enjoy what they do. The customers seem to like it. Sometimes they stop and chat with the Greeter, and they usually return the "Hello".  SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >They take the job because they want something to do with their time >and to have some human contact. They seem to enjoy what they do. The evil aspect isn't related to the answer given Jan. Wal Mart has been strongly criticized for treating their employees badly (I'll leave the details to someone else) and union busting. As you say, Tony, the greeters are usually retirees who like having the opportunity for something to do and having contact with people. Provided the work isn't necessary for livelihood, I agree that it may be a nice way for some retirees to pass their time. >>> A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? >>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Provided the work isn't necessary for livelihood, I agree that it > may be a nice way for some retirees to pass their time. Yet another aspect: it's a "proven fact" that having a staff member make personal contact with customers shortly after entry into a retail establishment reduces shrinkage loss (shoplifting). There you have the WalMart greeters as tools of capitalist overlords. SignatureFrank ess >>>> A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > make personal contact with customers shortly after entry into a retail > establishment reduces shrinkage loss (shoplifting). Target and Kmart shops have these greeters here in Australia. I think Bunnings (large hardware chain) do as well and I also see them at electronics and music stores. I don't know what they are called officially but it's never occurred to me that they are anything other than security personnel there more for the people exiting the shop than entering it. Mind you, there is a lady who has been at the entrance of my nearest Kmart for a good 10 years and I do often exchange a quick word with her when I go in. But nobody ever seems very interested in my bags when I leave a shop! My 18 year old son had a different story, though. One day we were in JB Hi-Fi where he was buying a computer game. I had a couple of bags from other shops and I decided to pop across to the adjacent Borders to pick up a gift card while my son was completing his selection and purchase. I strode out of JB's with all my open bags that could have concealed a score of DVD boxes, plus a good-sized handbag, right past the security guard who smiled benignly at me. When I came back my son (clean-shaven, clad tidily in jeans and t-shirt and without a backpack) was cheerfully showing his small sealed plastic bag with the receipt taped to the outside to the same man who was given it a thorough examination. This is his reality at the moment and fortunately he thinks it's funny rather than insulting. The profiling aspects to this amuse me because as a matronly middle-aged women I seem to be smiled on benignly by security guards everywhere, airports included. It's even better when I have my youngest child with me, I get special kindness shown to me! >The profiling aspects to this amuse me because as a matronly middle-aged >women I seem to be smiled on benignly by security guards everywhere, >airports included. It's even better when I have my youngest child with me, I >get special kindness shown to me! Some stores - CompUSA and Costco, for example - check contents against receipts as the customer exits as a security check against employee-assisted theft. If the cashier is a friend of the customer, the cashier can neglect to ring-up items and split the value of the proceeds with the customer. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida On Apr 25, 8:38 pm, "Tasha Miller" <tashamill...@gEEEmail.com.invalid> wrote: ... > >>>> A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? ... > >>> Wal Mart employs elderly men and women to stand by the doors and > >>> greet people with a friendly "Hello" when they walk in the door. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >>> open positions. Many older people really want to have contact > >>> with other people, a function in life, and an extra income. ... This may be true in many places. I live in an unusually poor area, and I suspect that some of the greeters here take the job to put food on the table. > > Yet another aspect: it's a "proven fact" that having a staff member > > make personal contact with customers shortly after entry into a retail [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > but it's never occurred to me that they are anything other than security > personnel there more for the people exiting the shop than entering it. ... At the Wal-Mart near me, the entrances and exits are separate and the greeters stand on the side of the entrance I use that's farther from exits, that is, the worst place to do security work. And I don't think they could do much. I believe this store suffers considerable losses to shoplifting and employee pilfering. Once a cashier pointed out a young man walking out who she was sure had hidden something in his baggy clothes. She said there was nothing she could do. (I don't remember what the item was or whether she said she saw him take it.) -- Jerry Friedman On Apr 25, 7:38 pm, "Tasha Miller" <tashamill...@gEEEmail.com.invalid> wrote: > >>>> A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > airports included. It's even better when I have my youngest child with me, I > get special kindness shown to me! The amusement to be had from erroneous stereotypes was highlighted for me many years ago, when I was in the corporate legal department of Montgomery Ward, a chain of department stores based in Chicago (now defunct). One Sunday night an executive buyer brought a truck up to the Chicago catalogue house loading dock, loaded the vehicle with the most expensive and marketable stuff in the building, and tried to take the vehicle to his fence. Fortunately, someone sounded an alarm and he was apprehended without a shred of an excuse. White collar criminals can be just as larcenous as the blue collar type, and sometimes become known to us bearing names like Bernie Madoff. -- Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > The amusement to be had from erroneous stereotypes was highlighted for > me many years ago, when I was in the corporate legal department of > Montgomery Ward, a chain of department stores based in Chicago (now > defunct). Chicago is defunct? I hadn't heard. Brian SignatureDay 84 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project >>I don't see the "evil" aspect. The Greeters are not being exploited. >>They take the job because they want something to do with their time [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >necessary for livelihood, I agree that it may be a nice way for some >retirees to pass their time. If the entire nation is composed of greeters, there are presumably no customers and no goods for sale. They have nothing to do but greet each other. So perhaps the evil is the end of productivity. Ron Paul fans seem to be not far removed from being Ayn Rand fans, and Ayn Rand deplored non-productive "busy" work, perhaps epitomised by "greeters". Just guessing here -- I'd never heard of Walmart Greeters until reading this thread. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >Just guessing here -- I'd never heard of Walmart Greeters until reading this >thread. While Wal Mart does employ Greeters, it's not a practice limited to Wal Mart. Other stores have Greeters. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > >Just guessing here -- I'd never heard of Walmart Greeters until reading this > >thread. > > While Wal Mart does employ Greeters, it's not a practice limited to > Wal Mart. Other stores have Greeters. Perhaps Wal Mart started it? Jan >> >Just guessing here -- I'd never heard of Walmart Greeters until reading this >> >thread. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Perhaps Wal Mart started it? The word was in use before it was adopted by stores. OED: greeter1 One who greets, or salutes. 1552 HULOET, Greter or brynger of a gretynge, salutiger. 1611 COTGR., Saluëur, a saluter, a greeter. 1780 F. BURNEY Diary May, She used to be my constant elbow companion, and most smiling greeter. 1853 E. S. SHEPPARD Ch. Auchester II. 116 Only half the students had returned, and they..were standing in self-interested fraternities, broken by groups and greeters. .... That 1853 example seems to refer to organised greeters, people whose task was to greet students and presumably to direct them to where they needed to be. There is also the phrase "meeters and greeters". This has several uses: 1. Family, friends or colleagues waiting at an airport for arriving passengers. http://www.shannonairport.com/facilities/meetersgreeters.html http://www.stuttgart-airport.com/sys/index.php?section_id=2&id=9&lang=1 A map of the Hong Kong International Airport Meeters and Greeters Hall: http://www.ispd2006.org/_pdf/airport_counter_direction_VIP.pdf 2. Greeters at large shopping complexes or stores: http://www.traffordcentre.co.uk/customerservices/directory/meetersandgreeters 3. Helpful volunteers in a hospital: http://www.whippsx.nhs.uk/stay/11309293896448.html 4. Volunteers who greet people on arrival at a church: http://www.st-teresas.org.uk/Meeters_Greeters.htm etc. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> >Just guessing here -- I'd never heard of Walmart Greeters until reading this >> >thread. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Perhaps Wal Mart started it? The practice is very old. Department stores had floorwalkers whose tasks, in part, was to greet customers. >>> >Just guessing here -- I'd never heard of Walmart Greeters until reading > this [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >The practice is very old. Department stores had floorwalkers whose >tasks, in part, was to greet customers. It's too early for me to make nouns and verbs agree. If one bothered, he could easily correlate my blunders to the time of my posts. >>>>> Just guessing here -- I'd never heard of Walmart Greeters until >>>>> reading this thread. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > bothered, he could easily correlate my blunders to the time of my > posts. I liked it that way. Felt sort of, well, cheerful. SignatureFrank ess > The practice is very old. Department stores had floorwalkers whose > tasks, in part, was to greet customers. They have "elevator girls" in Japan, which seems like a similar job. Oh look, they go on cultural exchanges: <http://www.life.com/image/805193> SignatureSML >Department stores had floorwalkers whose >tasks, in part, was to greet customers. Forunately we don't have these "greeters" over here. I suppose it is because of higher minimum wages. But it could also be because Europeans don't buy standardized superficial friendliness as easy as Americans do. Lars Stockholm >>Department stores had floorwalkers whose >>tasks, in part, was to greet customers. > >Forunately we don't have these "greeters" over here. Certainly you do. Somehow you must have managed to enter a store, shop, or restaurant without being met by the owner, manager or employee, or maybe in your "over here" you are populated with only unfriendly people. >I suppose it is because of higher minimum wages. But it could >also be because Europeans don't buy standardized superficial >friendliness as easy as Americans do. This smarmy reply I wouldn't expect from most Europeans, since the majority of Americans are of European origin. The friendliest Americans are often the most recent immigrants. >>>Department stores had floorwalkers whose >>>tasks, in part, was to greet customers. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >or restaurant without being met by the owner, manager or employee, or >maybe in your "over here" you are populated with only unfriendly people. In any shop in which it is possible to wander round looking at the goods on offer (including supermarkets and department stores), I expect to be able to do so without being accosted by anybody at any stage. When I want to ask a question, or to pay, *I* initiate the contact. At least I do if I can find anybody to talk to, which is not always the case; that can be irritating, but I'm sure I would be much more irritated by being "greeted". Just a matter of cultural expectations, of course. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>>>Department stores had floorwalkers whose >>>>tasks, in part, was to greet customers. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >more irritated by being "greeted". Just a matter of cultural >expectations, of course. I agree with you in general. But I was not annoyed a few days ago when a female employee in a small supermarket asked if I needed help. I had collected all the items on my shopping list but had the feeling that there was something else I needed tobuy. I was walking up and down the aisles staring at the shelves waiting for the "Of course!" moment. She was a shelf-stacker not a greeter and was being genuinely helpful. I smiled, explained my problem and thanked her. She smiled and left me to it. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>Department stores had floorwalkers whose >>>>tasks, in part, was to greet customers. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >more irritated by being "greeted". Just a matter of cultural >expectations, of course. Either you are particularly prickly or you misunderstand what the Wal Mart Greeter does. They don't walk up and start a conversation. They don't ask how that nasty rash is coming along or if you have regular bowel movements. Usually, the greeting is a nod in your direction and a change of expression to closely imitate a smile. Sometimes it's the verbal "Welcome to Wal Mart", but there's no expectation on their part for you to fill them in on your shopping needs or the state of your health and soundness of your marriage. If you choose to engage them in some light exchange of the "Howyadoin'/Fineanyew" nature, they'll participate, but not with a prolonged conversation unless you insist on extending the contact. After all, there's someone right behind you who has to be greeted. The Greeters seem content, if not outright relieved, if you blow by them without acknowledgement. No pouty looks or wounded mumblings in the line of "You think you're better than me, hunh?". Home Depot (a DIY chain store) has evidently recently started to encourage their employees to Aisle Greet to the extent that they will walk by and ask "Are you finding what you want?". The practice is rather helpful since I'm usually three aisles away from what I'm looking for. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Home Depot (a DIY chain store) has evidently recently started to > encourage their employees to Aisle Greet to the extent that they will > walk by and ask "Are you finding what you want?". The practice is > rather helpful since I'm usually three aisles away from what I'm > looking for. My goodness, your Home Depots are different from mine. At the one I usually go to, it feels like the employees have traded their orange aprons for camouflage. SignatureSML >> Home Depot (a DIY chain store) has evidently recently started to >> encourage their employees to Aisle Greet to the extent that they will [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > usually go to, it feels like the employees have traded their orange > aprons for camouflage. That's presumably related to the way that when you an in a consumer electronics shop and just nosying round to see what's there you will be asked every couple of minutes if you can be helped, but when you actually have a question about an item ... SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>> Home Depot (a DIY chain store) has evidently recently started to >>> encourage their employees to Aisle Greet to the extent that they [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > asked every couple of minutes if you can be helped, but when you > actually have a question about an item ... Yep. It's one world, all right. >>> Home Depot (a DIY chain store) has evidently recently started to >>> encourage their employees to Aisle Greet to the extent that they [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > asked every couple of minutes if you can be helped, but when you > actually have a question about an item ... I just got this email from a friend: "My 1 day employment So after landing my new job as a Wal-Mart greeter, a good find for many retirees, I lasted less than a day...... About two hours into my first day on the job a very loud, unattractive, mean-acting woman walked into the store with her two kids, yelling obscenities at them all the way through the entrance. As I had been instructed, I said pleasantly, 'Good morning and welcome to Wal-Mart. Nice children you have there. Are they twins?' The ugly woman stopped yelling long enough to say, 'Hell no, they ain't twins. The oldest one's 9, and the other one's 7. Why the hell would you think they're twins? Are you blind, or just stupid?' So I replied, 'I'm neither blind nor stupid, Ma'am, I just couldn't believe someone slept with you twice. Have a good day and thank you for shopping at Wal-Mart.' My supervisor said I probably wasn't cut out for this line of work." > >>> Home Depot (a DIY chain store) has evidently recently started to > >>> encourage their employees to Aisle Greet to the extent that they [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > My supervisor said I probably wasn't cut out for this line of work." For your friend's amusement, another Wal Mart Greeter gone wild at <http://mediaenvironment.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/attention-anti-wal-mar t-shoppers/> Jan >> I just got this email from a friend: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > <http://mediaenvironment.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/attention-anti-wal-mar > t-shoppers/> Thanks. She will enjoy it. She was props manager for the local (and original) production if some play about Wal-Mart of few years ago. I didn't go to see it, but we were all happy that it went to NYC and into off-Broadway production. > > Home Depot (a DIY chain store) has evidently recently started to > > encourage their employees to Aisle Greet to the extent that they will [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > usually go to, it feels like the employees have traded their orange > aprons for camouflage. Have you considered the possibiility that you might be different from Tony? Jan > > My goodness, your Home Depots are different from mine. At the one I > > usually go to, it feels like the employees have traded their orange > > aprons for camouflage. > > Have you considered the possibiility > that you might be different from Tony? There's something about him that lures in Home Depot employees, while I repel them? I suppose it's possible. Do I offend? SignatureSML > >>Department stores had floorwalkers whose > >>tasks, in part, was to greet customers. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > majority of Americans are of European origin. The friendliest Americans > are often the most recent immigrants. Your usage of 'smarmy' surprised me, so I looked it up. One source <http://www.alphadictionary.com/goodword/word/smarmy> even claims the word is virtually unknown in the USA. The meaning given is: ====== Pronunciation: smah(r)-mi • Hear it! Part of Speech: Adjective Meaning: 1. Slicked down, greasy, said especially of hair with too much tonic or oil on it. 2. Unctuous, oily, obsequious, ingratiatingly polite, perhaps with an overlay of feigned intelligence or sophistication. Notes: Today's Good Word is one that has yet to make it to America. It is widely used in Britain, Australia, New Zealand, and other English-speaking countries but Americans never hear or use it. It may be compared: smarmier, smarmiest, and its root may be used as a qualitative noun, smarm, the quality that makes something smarmy. If you prefer something a bit longer, try smarminess for the noun. I'm sure you won't regret it. ========== Wiki gives: smarmy (comparative smarmier, superlative smarmiest) 1. Falsely earnest, smug, or ingratiating. 2. a smarmy salesman with a big smile Synonyms • (falsely earnest or smug): flattering, gushing, ingratiating, oily, smug ============= This is clearly not the meaning you intended. ============= The urban dictionary is more like it: 1. smarmy A certain attitude often accompanied by a squinty look and a superior smile that makes you instantly hate a person. Similar to snobby. He/she/it is totally smarmy, I want to punch them in the face. ============ Trying on an evil squint, Jan > > >>Department stores had floorwalkers whose > > >>tasks, in part, was to greet customers. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > is widely used in Britain, Australia, New Zealand, and other > English-speaking countries but Americans never hear or use it. ... That's false. > The urban dictionary is more like it: > 1. > smarmy > A certain attitude often accompanied by a squinty look and a superior > smile that makes you instantly hate a person. Similar to snobby. > He/she/it is totally smarmy, I want to punch them in the face. ... I'm more familiar with the "unctuous" and "ingratiating" meaning above. The connection may be the smile. -- Jerry Friedman >Your usage of 'smarmy' surprised me, so I looked it up. >One source <http://www.alphadictionary.com/goodword/word/smarmy> >even claims the word is virtually unknown in the USA. Then, you should consider that "goodword" is virtually useless. While "smarmy" isn't a word we come across in the newspapers very often, it is far from unknown in the US. It has its place. I would not have chosen "smarmy" to describe your post because I think of "smarmy" as describing the unctuous and obsequious; which you are not. >The urban dictionary is more like it: >1. >smarmy >A certain attitude often accompanied by a squinty look and a superior >smile that makes you instantly hate a person. Similar to snobby. >He/she/it is totally smarmy, I want to punch them in the face. Another reason not to trust the urban dictionary. Some are is smarmy around perceived superiors, but smarminess is not a characteristic of the superior or the snobs. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > >Your usage of 'smarmy' surprised me, so I looked it up. > >One source <http://www.alphadictionary.com/goodword/word/smarmy> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of "smarmy" as describing the unctuous and obsequious; which you are > not. You shouldn't have used it anyway, since it wasn't my post. I am not the only one that Murray disaproves of. > >The urban dictionary is more like it: > >1. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > around perceived superiors, but smarminess is not a characteristic of > the superior or the snobs. Is the 'superior snobby' meaning ever used? Jan >> >A certain attitude often accompanied by a squinty look and a superior >> >smile that makes you instantly hate a person. Similar to snobby. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Is the 'superior snobby' meaning ever used? I have never seen or heard it used to describe a superior smile or a snobbishness. I can't imagine that it would be. The smarmy smile is patently false and on the face of someone sucking up or trying to be liked by a perceived superior. The squint aspect is completely unrelated to smarmy. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > >> >A certain attitude often accompanied by a squinty look and a superior > >> >smile that makes you instantly hate a person. Similar to snobby. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > patently false and on the face of someone sucking up or trying to be > liked by a perceived superior. I can see smarmy in a used car salesman or someone selling time shares. > The squint aspect is completely unrelated to smarmy. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >I can see smarmy in a used car salesman or someone >selling time shares. And in Wal-Mart greeters, no? Lars Stockholm >>I can see smarmy in a used car salesman or someone >>selling time shares. > > And in Wal-Mart greeters, no? Not the ones over here. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |As the judge remarked the day that 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | he acquitted my Aunt Hortense, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |To be smut |It must be ut- kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |Terly without redeeming social (650)857-7572 | importance. | Tom Lehrer http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>Department stores had floorwalkers whose >>tasks, in part, was to greet customers. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >also be because Europeans don't buy standardized superficial >friendliness as easy as Americans do. Really? If the clerk who waits on you smiles and greets you as you approach his station, is his demeanor any less superficial than if he were standing by the door? Is it your opinion that the clerk is genuinely glad to see you? The only difference between the Greeter and the clerk is the point at which you encounter them. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>Department stores had floorwalkers whose >>tasks, in part, was to greet customers. > >Forunately we don't have these "greeters" over here. There are "greeters" of a different kind in Scotland, as in the saying: Finders keepers, losers greeters. And from the Scottish National Dictionary, 1828, P. Buchan Ballads II. 285: "For I've heard greeters at your school-house, Near thirty in a day." SignatureJames >> Department stores had floorwalkers whose >> tasks, in part, was to greet customers. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Lars > Stockholm My most frequent encounter with 'greeters' is in the larger B&Qs - a DIY chain - where surly youths press baskets and catalogues upon one. This is odd as many B&Q employees are of mature years and are knowledgeable and helpful. I suppose it may be the only thing that surly youths can do without great damage. SignatureMike Page Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email. >>> Department stores had floorwalkers whose tasks, in part, was to greet >>> customers. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > helpful. I suppose it may be the only thing that surly youths can do > without great damage. How many youths (surly or otherwise), read AUE, I wonder? I'm 55, and I imagine most readers of AUE are in a similar age-bracket (I would be delighted to be proved wrong). After forty years of not teaching grammar "because it confines young minds", we have nearly two generations of people who (whatever their interest in language) find it hard to articulate their instinctive objections to this or that locution. Years ago I asked a class of students (mainly teachers) engaged in a postgraduate certificate course in English to identify the verb in a number of sentences written on a blackboard, and most of them were bafffled by the question. Peter Groves (Melbourne, Australia) >> My most frequent encounter with 'greeters' is in the larger B&Qs - a DIY >> chain - where surly youths press baskets and catalogues upon one. This is >> odd as many B&Q employees are of mature years and are knowledgeable and >> helpful. I suppose it may be the only thing that surly youths can do >> without great damage. > How many youths (surly or otherwise), read AUE, I wonder? I'm 55, and I > imagine most readers of AUE are in a similar age-bracket (I would be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in English to identify the verb in a number of sentences written on a > blackboard, and most of them were bafffled by the question. Teaching grammar might have confined the young minds to the point where the hands under their control could write intelligible, grammatical and correctly spelled sentences. As a teaching assistant in a US graduate school, I encountered one particularly bad paper containing what I could only assume were intended to be sentences by the presence of a capital letter at the beginning and a period/full stop at the end. The student seemed offended by my criticisms of her writing and said that she had often been complimented on her writing. At that same graduate school we teaching assistants were told about a former student whose English was so appalling that his academic background was investigated. When it was discovered that he had a degree from the University of California at Berkeley with Honors in English Literature, further inquiries were made, and it was discovered that he had taken only courses with multiple-choice examinations: he had never written a paper! Perce (dual-citizen OzBrit -- aka "whingeing Pommie bastard" -- in exile in US Midwest) [ ... ] > At that same graduate school we teaching assistants were told about a > former student whose English was so appalling that his academic [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > had taken only courses with multiple-choice examinations: he had never > written a paper! I ought to be surprised. During my time at Berkeley, where I received a degree with Honors in English Literature, I wrote and wrote and wrote, and not just in English courses. I don't recall a single multiple-choice exam in my major, and although there were a few in other courses, such as psychology, they were quite rar^H^H^H infrequent. I was a fairly fluent writer for a kid and did reasonably well in most courses. (I also knew some grammar, learned while I was in high school -- in Texas, yet! That didn't hurt at all.) Of course, I escaped from Berkeley before the Sixties began, so I am now a relic of bygone days and ways. Thank God for that. SignatureBob Lieblich And I look like a relic, but that's another essay exam > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Of course, I escaped from Berkeley before the Sixties began, so I am > now a relic of bygone days and ways. Thank God for that. But I /am/ as surprised as you feel you ought to be. Perhaps it's a failure in my creative faculty, but I can't even imagine how a reputable English Department, such as Berkeley's, would set about contriving a multi-choice exam in literature. I want to see a little evidence before I promote this anecdote above the rank of Urban Legend 3rd Class. Note that Perce was told it as a good story. SignatureMike. [ ... ] > How many youths (surly or otherwise), read AUE, I wonder? We've had a few, mostly surly. The AUE body seems to slough them off. Sometimes it takes a while. I do miss Youthful Leah. > I'm 55, and I > imagine most readers of AUE are in a similar age-bracket (I would be > delighted to be proved wrong). You probably *are* wrong. I think our median age is considerably higher than 55. SignatureBob Lieblich Whose median age is 68 these days > How many youths (surly or otherwise), read AUE, I wonder? I'm 55, and I > imagine most readers of AUE are in a similar age-bracket (I would be > delighted to be proved wrong). I'm one of the babies of AUE, and I'll be 40 next year. Come to think of it: I've been one of the babies of AUE for over a decade. This really isn't fair. SignatureSML >> How many youths (surly or otherwise), read AUE, I wonder? I'm 55, and I >> imagine most readers of AUE are in a similar age-bracket (I would be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Come to think of it: I've been one of the babies of AUE for over a > decade. This really isn't fair. When I joined my first real-world choir (outside educational establishments) at the age of about 25, I was one of the youngest members. I stayed with that choir for 25 years, at the end of which I was one of the youngest members. I have had to find other choirs to join, and in many cases, at the age of 52, I am one of the youngest members. This Saturday I'm helping out a local choral society at their concert because the conductor considers me to be a younger addition to his line of basses. Something has changed during my lifetime. SignatureDavid > When I joined my first real-world choir (outside educational > establishments) at the age of about 25, I was one of the youngest [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Something has changed during my lifetime. Other than your age? SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> When I joined my first real-world choir (outside educational >> establishments) at the age of about 25, I was one of the youngest [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Other than your age? Well, yes. Choirs are not being replenished by younger singers, as they must have been for generations past. SignatureDavid >>> When I joined my first real-world choir (outside educational >>> establishments) at the age of about 25, I was one of the youngest [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Well, yes. Choirs are not being replenished by younger singers, as > they must have been for generations past. I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music is not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents have ever listened to any "classical" music, and it's no longer socially necessary even to pretend to be musically cultured. Sad to say, music is becoming an elite taste. SignatureMike. > I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music > is not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents > have ever listened to any "classical" music, and it's no longer > socially necessary even to pretend to be musically cultured. Sad to > say, music is becoming an elite taste. I wonder when the last decade was that people in their fifties and sixties *didn't* make that complaint, with about as much justification. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The reason that we don't have 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |"bear-proof" garbage cans in the Palo Alto, CA 94304 |park is that there is a significant |overlap in intelligence between the kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |smartest bears and the dumbest (650)857-7572 |humans. | Yosemite Park Ranger http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music >> is not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > sixties *didn't* make that complaint, with about as much > justification. I take the point, but I do feel that mine (in the UK at least) is a pivot generation. Most of what my parents did was just like their own parents. Most of what our children do is just like us. But our lives are entirely different from those of our parents. We went away to university and didn't go home afterwards. We lived together openly, buying a house as a couple without (in our case, before) getting married ("What will the postman think?", said MIL). SignatureDavid >>> I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music >>> is not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > openly, buying a house as a couple without (in our case, before) > getting married ("What will the postman think?", said MIL). I'm having trouble reconciling that with Mike's notion that (as I read it) younger people today don't have appreciation for classical music that, by implication, his generation did (or was I misreading and he meant it to apply to his cohort--which I take to be around yours?) and with your notion that your peers joined choirs (as your parents did), but people after you didn't. As with my earlier point, I think that most people tend to overemphasize (or at least focus on) the difference between their generation's experiences (which they lived through) and their parents' generation (which they only heard about) and deemphasize the differences between their parents' and their grandparents'. Either that, or they overemphasize the differences between their generation and their children's generation, having lived through their children's rebellion. I don't think it would take a lot of digging to find statements like yours in every decase back into the nineteenth century, at least. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Reality is that which, when you 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |stop believing in it, doesn't go Palo Alto, CA 94304 |away. | kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Philip K. Dick (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > I don't think it would take a lot of digging to find statements like > yours in every decase back into the nineteenth century, at least. I think I found the other end of the "do"<->"so" swap from another thread. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There is something fascinating 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |about science. One gets such Palo Alto, CA 94304 |wholesale returns of conjecture out |of such a trifling investment of kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |fact. (650)857-7572 | Mark Twain http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>> I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music >>>> is not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > I don't think it would take a lot of digging to find statements like > yours in every decase back into the nineteenth century, at least. I was aware of all the points you've made, of course. So how do you explain David's choirs' recruitment problems? Meanwhile, I think my remarks were factual. When I was a boy in the forties and fifties, it was impossible to listen to the limited number of radio networks or stations for any length of time without hearing, daily, "classical" music, and nobody in Australia and only a minority in Britain had television. The idioms of orchestral etc music were part of the auditory scenery. It was also, as I hinted, a social gaffe in educated circles not to claim some enjoyment of such music, even if one had to lie about it (which some people did: I'm not trying to describe a Garden of Eden). That has all changed. I would guess that it wasn't until well into the sixties that classical music became a smaller profit centre for the big record companies than the other genres put together. I'd add that successive UK governments have, for about a generation now, made it harder and harder for schools to retain music as a subject or to provide instrumental teaching. Whether your child gets any daytime musical education here is decided by a "postcode lottery"; instrumental teaching in unlucky districts is for the children of those parents who care enough to pay --nothing wrong with that, but it limits the numbers. SignatureMike. >>>> I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music >>>> is not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > with your notion that your peers joined choirs (as your parents did), > but people after you didn't. True, by golly. I have no defence. My children are also a pivot generation, although only (so far) for choral singing). Youth orchestras seem to be able to keep going. > As with my earlier point, I think that most people tend to > overemphasize (or at least focus on) the difference between their [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I don't think it would take a lot of digging to find statements like > yours in every decase back into the nineteenth century, at least. It's possible. SignatureDavid >>> I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music >>> is not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >buying a house as a couple without (in our case, before) getting married >("What will the postman think?", said MIL). But of your parents' generation, how many went away to university anyway? They didn't leave home and then return, because when they left home it was to work or to marry. My grandmother's brothers went to university then set off into the big wide world of work, from where they married. My grandmother went to nursing school and never returned to the nest. Her sister was sent to nursing school but fled home after a few days, and got a job as a type-writer (as it was in those days), until she married and left home. That was all around 1918-24. My parents left home, for the armed forces, when they were 16 and 20, and never went home. My brother and I both left home at the age of 18. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>> I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music >>>> is not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > But of your parents' generation, how many went away to university > anyway? None, although my grandfather was unusual in going to university in the early years of the 20th century. > They didn't leave home and then return, because when they left > home it was to work or to marry. True, but not until their late 20s. > My grandmother's brothers went to > university then set off into the big wide world of work, from where [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > parents left home, for the armed forces, when they were 16 and 20, and > never went home. My brother and I both left home at the age of 18. So in fact, wife and I are pivot generation in our families, but other families will have different break points. SignatureDavid Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music >> is not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >sixties *didn't* make that complaint, with about as much >justification. The difference being what those older people were willing to accept as "classical" music...my grandparents, and perhaps my parents as well, considered Gershwin and Menotti pop composers, but now CDs of their music are shelved alongside Tchaikovsky and Andrew Lloyd Weber respectively....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >their music are shelved alongside Tchaikovsky and Andrew Lloyd Weber >respectively....r Tchaikovsky, of course, not being "classical" (but rather "romantic") to those with "elite" taste. Then again, neither are Vivaldi or Bach, being, rather "baroque". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Yesterday I washed a single sock. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |When I opened the door, the machine Palo Alto, CA 94304 |was empty. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > to those with "elite" taste. Then again, neither are Vivaldi or Bach, > being, rather "baroque". I think Ron and I used enough inverted commas to make our elite status clear. If we're going to have a thread on what to call the genre (if genre it be), include me out: it's too perfectly insoluble even to be fun. SignatureMike. >> Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >to those with "elite" taste. Then again, neither are Vivaldi or Bach, >being, rather "baroque". A friend of mine once said all musicians are baroque. > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > music are shelved alongside Tchaikovsky and Andrew Lloyd Weber > respectively....r Any relation to Carl Maria von Webber? SignatureRay UK >>>> When I joined my first real-world choir (outside educational >>>> establishments) at the age of about 25, I was one of the youngest [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >necessary even to pretend to be musically cultured. Sad to say, music is >becoming an elite taste. Non-commercial music, that is. What has changed in his lifetime (and mine) is the increase in commercialisation. Look at MySpace -- it assumes that members will be addicted to commercial music. I blame Reagan/Thatcher, but that may just be personal prejudice. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >ever listened to any "classical" music, and it's no longer socially >necessary even to pretend to be musically cultured. Sad to say, music is >becoming an elite taste. ITYM "elite music is becoming an elite taste". There have always been popular music traditions distinct from Western Classical. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >> ever listened to any "classical" music, and it's no longer socially >> necessary even to pretend to be musically cultured. Sad to say, >> music is becoming an elite taste. > ITYM "elite music is becoming an elite taste". There have always > been popular music traditions distinct from Western Classical. There seem to be a good many young people singing pop music together in a choir-like way in US universities. Ben Folds, a well-known popular composer and performer I had never heard of, recently invited student /a cappella/ groups to compete in performing covers of his music, for places on a CD of their best efforts that he is producing. This one, "Smoke" by the University of Georgia's Justice League, doesn't seem to be one of the winners (possibly because the choir has broken up) but it's my favourite of the ones I've heard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7FXUjNIeD0 "Gracie", by the Tufts Beelzebubs is good too, although not as complex, and the cover by UC Berkeley's DeCadence of Folds's cover of Dr Dre's "Bitches Ain't sh.t" is pretty funny. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_zKo3q5iGE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjNNxnKVEpQ ObAUE: Gangsta rap using a prison vocabulary, "bitches" are subordinate males; the word for "woman", as we know, is "ho". >> ever listened to any "classical" music, and it's no longer socially >> necessary even to pretend to be musically cultured. Sad to say, >> music is becoming an elite taste. > > ITYM "elite music is becoming an elite taste". YT wrong. > There have always been > popular music traditions distinct from Western Classical. And "classical" music fans probably know more about them than most people. Certainly more than the popsters. SignatureMike. >> There have always been >> popular music traditions distinct from Western Classical. >And "classical" music fans probably know more about them than most >people. I find that suggestion highly unlikely, although my sample is undoubtedly biased. The rare "'classical' music fan" who can give a meaningful explanation of the rise and decline of synth-pop in the 1980s is worthy of respect. (Even being able to name the relevant artists and producers would be worth something.) Should he or she be able in turn to relate this to the "eighties sound", the New Wave bands started in the late 1970s, and the role of producers like Mitchell Froom and Daniel Lanois and Brian Eno, that's probably a significant work of scholarship. (I don't claim to be able to do this, even though it is unquestionably "my" period and "my" sort of music. I'm still trying to work out how to define the "eighties sound" objectively; for the moment I'm still stuck with the Potter Stewart method.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>> There have always been >>> popular music traditions distinct from Western Classical. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > to define the "eighties sound" objectively; for the moment I'm still > stuck with the Potter Stewart method.) Well, to be fair, I had in mind a rather wider net than that: the Eighties does indeed floor me, and the Nineties leaves me for dead. I was thinking more like jazz, blues, boogie-woogie, bluegrass, and so on and on from your continent, and countless other genres from points east, west, and south. But stream Radio 3 for a month and you'll get an idea of the kind of music-lover I'm thinking of. (If you can bear hearing Mussorgsky's goddamn /Pictures/ thirty-seven times a week.) SignatureMike. >I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music is >not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents have >ever listened to any "classical" music, and it's no longer socially >necessary even to pretend to be musically cultured. Sad to say, music is >becoming an elite taste. By "music" you seem to mean "classical" music. Which was always an elite taste. Popular music has always been around, it's the music people played in the pubs and taverns, and in their houses. These days it can be spread farther and faster than a hundred years ago, but the music that most people listened to and made wasn't "classical" music even then. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music is >> not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > By "music" you seem to mean "classical" music. Which was always an > elite taste. No it wasn't. That's the point. > Popular music has always been around, it's the music > people played in the pubs and taverns, and in their houses. I didn't suggest otherwise. But it's equivocation to use the term "popular music" in the same paragraph to mean both modern record-company music and the folk songs, ballads, and music-hall songs of the past. > These days > it can be spread farther and faster than a hundred years ago, but the > music that most people listened to and made wasn't "classical" music > even then. But even if I'm wrong in all particulars, how do /you/ explain the problem David describes? SignatureMike. >>> I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music is >>> not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents have [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >But even if I'm wrong in all particulars, how do /you/ explain the >problem David describes? Personally, I think it's the "Me, me" problem. Many people of generations younger than ours have been led to believe that gratification should be instant, and that anything that takes time and patience is a drag. Also, anything that smacks of middle-classness (singing in choirs, taking brass rubbings, learning to play a musical instrument...) gets caught with the "elitism" tag, which is anathema. Personally, I think that during my lifetime most of the country has become lower class in its taste and behaviour. However, Evan is surely right in that every generation of our age since mankind started walking on its hind legs has made the same sort of comment about the generation after it. "Look at that Og: he takes more time putting his furs on than you and I do to bring down a mammoth." And so on. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > Also, anything that smacks of middle-classness > (singing in choirs, taking brass rubbings, learning to play a musical > instrument...) gets caught with the "elitism" tag, which is anathema. Depends on the instrument, surely. SignatureSML >> Also, anything that smacks of middle-classness (singing in choirs, >> taking brass rubbings, learning to play a musical instrument...) >> gets caught with the "elitism" tag, which is anathema. > > Depends on the instrument, surely. Certainly. As I type this, my 10-year-old son and a friend of his are jamming down the hall, Josh on drums, his friend on guitar. (Both instruments are electr[on]ic, and the amp is turned down to reasonable levels.) Neither of these nor my electric bass whose amp they're borrowing has ever had a whole lot of "elitism" associated with it, I wouldn't think. Josh has been taking piano for about four years, an instrument that's led a double life for at least a century. He's just starting trumpet and his friend alto sax. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |This isn't good. I've seen good, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |and it didn't look anything like Palo Alto, CA 94304 |this. | MST3K kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Popular music has always been around, it's the music >> people played in the pubs and taverns, and in their houses. > >I didn't suggest otherwise. But it's equivocation to use the term >"popular music" in the same paragraph to mean both modern record-company >music and the folk songs, ballads, and music-hall songs of the past. Record companies don't make music; they are more akin to investment bankers, who make an investment in many different musicians in return for the opportunity to take a cut of the sales. There is no genre "record-company music"; record companies invest in all sorts of music (the alleged inability of followers of other musical traditions to distinguish among them notwithstanding). -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>> I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music is >>> not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >No it wasn't. That's the point. How do you know? What makes you think that two hundred years ago, farmhands were coming home from the fields and listening to or playing a bit of Weber or Haydn? >> Popular music has always been around, it's the music >> people played in the pubs and taverns, and in their houses. > >I didn't suggest otherwise. But it's equivocation to use the term >"popular music" in the same paragraph to mean both modern record-company >music and the folk songs, ballads, and music-hall songs of the past. Why? >> These days >> it can be spread farther and faster than a hundred years ago, but the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >But even if I'm wrong in all particulars, how do /you/ explain the >problem David describes? Young people now have more options available to them. My mum joined a choir because her mum was the musical director, there wasn't really an option. And other than that, she didn't have anything else to do. I had Guides, ballet lessons and two youth clubs to go to - I didn't really have time for any more out-of-school activities. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>> I think it's probably simply that exposure to non-commercial music >>>> is not now compulsory or inescapable. Very few teachers or parents [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > farmhands were coming home from the fields and listening to or playing > a bit of Weber or Haydn? Well, because there was a long and vigorous tradition of choral, church, and band music. Think of all those bands and choirs in all the industrial and mining areas, many of which even survived into your lifetime. It may well have been the best-organized leisure activity there's ever been (but that's just a guess). OK, the instrumental music would generally have been in brass band arrangements rather than the full orchestral original, and probably at the lighter end, and many of the singers would have used sol-fa or even rote-learning by ear; but it was still formal music-making, and it wasn't based on social class. (And, as it happens, I have talked to old English farmhands about music: they didn't know much about it, or take it as a serious pursuit, but some of them did know what they liked --and that was because of the BBC.) >>> Popular music has always been around, it's the music >>> people played in the pubs and taverns, and in their houses. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Why? Because the activities are so dissimilar: even ignoring overwhelming stylistic differences, modern commercial music is listened to, not "played in the pubs...and in their houses". >>> These days >>> it can be spread farther and faster than a hundred years ago, but [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > had Guides, ballet lessons and two youth clubs to go to - I didn't > really have time for any more out-of-school activities. OK. So why, of the greater number of options available, do those in David's area not choose choral singing? I really can't put it down to chance; and there have been Guides, ballet classes, and youth clubs since before I was born. Choices are being made, and there must be reasons. SignatureMike. >> Young people now have more options available to them. My mum joined a >> choir because her mum was the musical director, there wasn't really [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > since before I was born. Choices are being made, and there must be > reasons. What is happening now is that all of those activities are finding it much more difficult to attract membership. People seem to have lost interest in joining organised activities, with the possible exception of some sports. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>> Young people now have more options available to them. My mum joined a >>> choir because her mum was the musical director, there wasn't really [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >interest in joining organised activities, with the possible exception of >some sports. I thought of this thread earlier today while reading reports in a local newspaper. The Queen and Prince Philip were in Northern Ireland yesterday. One of their engagements was at Altnagelvin Hospital, Londonderry. They were there to formally open the hospital's new South Wing. The report of that event says: After touring the hospital wing the Queen and Duke were entertained by the hospital choir - unique in Northern Ireland and one of only a handful of active hospital choirs in the UK. Searching for information on the type of works they sing, I found this announcement of what they would be singing at their 2007 Spring Concert: The concert will feature organist Ian Mills and will include choral works by Elgar ... as well as works from composers with Irish connections Stanford, who was born in Dublin, Wood, who was born in Armagh, and Philip Stopford, currently Director of Music in Belfast Cathedral. The audience will also be treated to Franz Schuberts Mass in G. According to the website of Boosey and Hawkes (music publishers) the choir will be performing tomorrow 8 May 2009: http://www.boosey.com/pages/cr/calendar/perf_results.asp?composerid=2764 Jenkins, Karl: The Armed Man: A Mass for Peace (ensemble version) Altnagelvin Hospital Choir / Jim Goodman Christ Church, Londonderry, United Kingdom SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Well, yes. Choirs are not being replenished by younger singers, as they > must have been for generations past. That was true in this area for some 20 years after IBM stopped hiring. One chamber choir I sing in had several college students in it when I joined, and they've all since been replaced by older singers. It's only in the past few years that we've had new singers under 40 join. ¬R >>> How many youths (surly or otherwise), read AUE, I wonder? I'm 55, and I >>> imagine most readers of AUE are in a similar age-bracket (I would [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Something has changed during my lifetime. I'd put a date of around 1985 or 6 on it. I was at University (two Universities, actually) from 1982 to 1988 and during that time the number of new undergraduates each year joining any club or society that wasn't a single issue political group, or a purely mercenary career based thing dropped by something between 2/3 and 3/4. Dunno what it was, though there's a temptation to find some way to blame Mrs T. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu Peter Groves filted: >How many youths (surly or otherwise), read AUE, I wonder? I'm 55, and I >imagine most readers of AUE are in a similar age-bracket (I would be >delighted to be proved wrong). Within the last month, I've just moved into the bracket next to yours....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >>>> Just guessing here -- I'd never heard of Walmart Greeters until >>>> reading this thread. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The practice is very old. Department stores had floorwalkers whose > tasks, in part, was to greet customers. Coming late to this conversation, I am glad you mentioned "floorwalkers". I also have in mind "ushers", both in churches and theaters, and the "host/maitre d' " in restaurants. >>Just guessing here -- I'd never heard of Walmart Greeters until reading this >>thread. > >While Wal Mart does employ Greeters, it's not a practice limited to >Wal Mart. Other stores have Greeters. Aye, but the example specifically mentioned Walmart Greeters, and so the question must be what would be the characteristics of a nation composed entirely of such people -- not greeters in general, but Walmart greeters. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>Just guessing here -- I'd never heard of Walmart Greeters until reading this >>>thread. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >question must be what would be the characteristics of a nation composed >entirely of such people -- not greeters in general, but Walmart greeters. It was, and it wasn't. The original post was a question posed by Jan Lodder asking what a Wal Mart Greeter is. However, his question emanated from a newsgroup posting by a "nutty poster who infests newsgroups". If the statement was made by some newspaper columnist, a political pundit, or someone with some standing, you might wonder if there is anything to the comparison. You might assume the statement was developed in such a way that something about Wal Mart Greeters is indicative of the way the country is going. As it is, the maker of the statement is not assumed to have made a statement with any substance. So, it is better in this case to just explain to a non-American (Jan) what a "Greeter" is and not try to figure out what characteristics a "Greeter" has. Greeters are employed by many businesses, but Wal Mart is the company that is most known for employing them. If you dwell on the "Wal Mart Greeter" aspect, all you can assume is that the speaker is suggesting that this is a nation of older people who take low income jobs with no more responsibility than to smile and nod at strangers entering a store. If that *is* his point, then he *is* nutty. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > >>I don't see the "evil" aspect. The Greeters are not being exploited. > >>They take the job because they want something to do with their time [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > far removed from being Ayn Rand fans, and Ayn Rand deplored non-productive > "busy" work, perhaps epitomised by "greeters". Just good old calvinism here. Only digging in the dirt and hammering nails and things like that are 'real' work. If you don't sweat it isn't work, just parasitism. (and marxism copied it) The idea that productivity can rise to the point that all that work can be done by a small fraction of the population is beyond them, Jan >> >>I don't see the "evil" aspect. The Greeters are not being exploited. >> >>They take the job because they want something to do with their time [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Jan Wal-Mart greeters make minumum wage. The real jobs pay a living wage which allow a worker to feed and shelter his family and even buy stuff. When the American worker is broken who will but all the stuff needed to run the world's economy? [...] > Wal-Mart greeters make minumum wage. The real jobs pay a living wage > which allow a worker to feed and shelter his family and even buy > stuff. When the American worker is broken who will but all the stuff > needed to run the world's economy? The Chinese worker, of course. And after her, the Indian one. Meanwhile, I'd rather have a penny off the bill than pay it to have some total stranger talk to me when I go into the supermarket. SignatureMike. >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I'd rather have a penny off the bill than pay it to have some total >stranger talk to me when I go into the supermarket. Spoken like a true Englishman. Bravo. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I'd rather have a penny off the bill than pay it to have some total >stranger talk to me when I go into the supermarket. Agreed, but It would be the other way 'round. The "greeters" are there to deter their fine customers from stealing stuff. If they pointed the greeters the other way they'd have to give them free uniforms and maybe even pay the toothless old buggers a more-or-less living wage. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com > [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I'd rather have a penny off the bill than pay it to have some total > stranger talk to me when I go into the supermarket. The Chinese and Indian worker isn't making enough. It was the fact they get paid peanuts that caused the jobs to get sent there. >> [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > It was the fact they get paid peanuts that caused the jobs to get sent > there. I think that's how it works: the Japanese worker wasn't making enough at first, either. English-speaking economies may be significant only as providers of services (perhaps) and raw materials (if they've still got stuff the Chinese and Indians want). I don't know who's next in line a century or so later: the Russians, presumably; then Nigeria, perhaps? Brazil? SignatureMike. > The Chinese worker, of course. And after her, the Indian one. Meanwhile, > I'd rather have a penny off the bill than pay it to have some total > stranger talk to me when I go into the supermarket. If Wal-Mart is does something, you can be confident they're doing it to make a buck. Customer pleasure is not high on Wal-Mart's list of priorities. SignatureSML >> The Chinese worker, of course. And after her, the Indian one. Meanwhile, >> I'd rather have a penny off the bill than pay it to have some total [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >make a buck. Customer pleasure is not high on Wal-Mart's list of >priorities. I really have to disagree with that. Wal Mart is certainly out to make a buck, but any retailer understands that pleasing the customer is essential to that aim. And, the people at Wal Mart are smart retailers. What I think may be behind that comment is that Wal Mart doesn't please *you*. Perhaps so, but you are not the Wal Mart target customer. You may be cost-concious and you may look for bargains, but I don't get the impression that you are shopping at Wal Mart because Wal Mart is what you expect overall in merchandise and shopping ambience. To the people without higher expectations, Wal Mart may be offering a pleasing shopping experience. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> The Chinese worker, of course. And after her, the Indian one. Meanwhile, >> I'd rather have a penny off the bill than pay it to have some total [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >make a buck. Customer pleasure is not high on Wal-Mart's list of >priorities. That's a bit too cynical. I would think the customer's pleasure would be a high priority. A merchant who displeases his customers isn't long for this world. >>> The Chinese worker, of course. And after her, the Indian one. Meanwhile, >>> I'd rather have a penny off the bill than pay it to have some total [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >a high priority. A merchant who displeases his customers isn't long for >this world. Then you don't know large public corporations in Britain such as British Rail or, for example, the banks. When my wife was a trainee bank teller in the 1950s there was hell to pay if a customer closed an account and went elsewhere. Now, they couldn't care less. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>> The Chinese worker, of course. And after her, the Indian one. Meanwhile, >>>> I'd rather have a penny off the bill than pay it to have some total [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >bank teller in the 1950s there was hell to pay if a customer closed an >account and went elsewhere. Now, they couldn't care less. I haven't found that to be the case in Ireland. AIB couldn't do enough for me when I opened an additional account, but when it came to completely closing an account at a competing bank recently, the girl had no more time for me than I imagine a K-Mart clerk in Trenton, New Jersey would have when her customer doesn't have the right change. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > >If Wal-Mart is does something, you can be confident they're doing it to > >make a buck. Customer pleasure is not high on Wal-Mart's list of > >priorities. > > That's a bit too cynical. I would think the customer's pleasure would be > a high priority. I've been in only one Wal-Mart, in New Hampshire. It was dark, depressing, and I'm pretty certain there was a homeless woman doing drugs in the bathroom. I shop in thrift stores and have a high tolerance for cheapness, but even I have some standards. > A merchant who displeases his customers isn't long for > this world. True. I don't understand how Wal-Mart stays in business. SignatureSML > I've been in only one Wal-Mart, in New Hampshire. It was dark, > depressing, and I'm pretty certain there was a homeless woman doing > drugs in the bathroom. I shop in thrift stores and have a high > tolerance for cheapness, but even I have some standards. ** warning ** I will start addressing the quoted post, but then going off on an extreme tangent. I went to the local Goodwill store last week, in search of a VCR. It was actually fairly spacious and well-lit. The shelves with electronics were pretty jumbled up though. I used to have several VCRs. Then I was down to one, my workhorse Panasonic. It started showing some evidence of dirty heads, and the "dry" head-cleaning tape didn't seem to do much. I thought maybe the heads were worn out, so I wanted a cheap replacement. The Goodwill had a JVC that looked a lot like the one I used to have, so I thought there was a good chance the old remote would work with it (the Goodwill ones didn't have any remotes). Alas, the compatibility was less than I'd hoped for. I could play, record, and change channels, but not set recording events. I then decided to research head cleaning. Even though I'm an engineer, I've never looked into doing it myself before. Turns out, IT'S EASY! I cleaned the Panasonic up and it was fine. I'm keeping the other one, because I can sort of use it and it only cost $12. And I might find a more compatible remote. Brian SignatureDay 87 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project >> I've been in only one Wal-Mart, in New Hampshire. It was dark, >> depressing, and I'm pretty certain there was a homeless woman doing [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >"dry" head-cleaning tape didn't seem to do much. I thought maybe the >heads were worn out, so I wanted a cheap replacement. You couldn't have done that here. It is illegal to sell consumer electrical equipment second-hand. It can't even be dumped unless the mains plug has been removed. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>I went to the local Goodwill store last week, in search of a VCR. It >>was actually fairly spacious and well-lit. The shelves with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > electrical equipment second-hand. It can't even be dumped unless the > mains plug has been removed. What's the reason for that law? I'm curious. Maria Conlon, not a big fan of certain laws. >>> I went to the local Goodwill store last week, in search of a VCR. It >>> was actually fairly spacious and well-lit. The shelves with electronics [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> "dry" head-cleaning tape didn't seem to do much. I thought maybe the >>> heads were worn out, so I wanted a cheap replacement. >> You couldn't have done that here. It is illegal to sell consumer >> electrical equipment second-hand. It can't even be dumped unless the >> mains plug has been removed. > What's the reason for that law? I'm curious. Safety. Keep in mind that the UK's standard voltage is 240 rather than 120, so any fault my have more dire consequences than the same fault in a US appliance. Actually, what I was told when I tried to give away my late parents' small electrical appliances to the thrift shop in the UK was that they couldn't resell them without an electrician's inspection certificate; this would have cost more than they could get for the appliance. The wisdom of the UK's law was demonstrated in our community a few months ago. Someone bought a used refrigerator for the house she was about to move into, and, while she was away buying other things, the refrigerator caught fire and damaged the house beyond repair. I think the compressor had seized for lack of use while it was in the store. Perce [Regarding the UK law forbidding resale of electrical appliances] >The wisdom of the UK's law was demonstrated in our community a few >months ago. Someone bought a used refrigerator for the house she was >about to move into, and, while she was away buying other things, the >refrigerator caught fire and damaged the house beyond repair. I think >the compressor had seized for lack of use while it was in the store. This is the dodgy logic that produces laws that take away rights. You can always stop bad things from happening in any given situation by forbidding the situation. As far as the refrigerator fire, it is possible for the same thing to happen with any appliance straight out of its box. It is the buyer's duty to determine if a secondhand appliance is faulty before buying. Doesn't the axiom caveat emptor apply in the UK any more? >[Regarding the UK law forbidding resale of electrical appliances] >>The wisdom of the UK's law was demonstrated in our community a few [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >is faulty before buying. Doesn't the axiom caveat emptor apply in the UK >any more? Yes, but where the buyer cannot reasonably be expected to have the specialist knowledge or means to determine whether an item is faulty or unsafe - No. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Peter Duncanson wrote: >>[Regarding the UK law forbidding resale of electrical appliances] >>>The wisdom of the UK's law was demonstrated in our community a few [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >specialist knowledge or means to determine whether an item is faulty or >unsafe - No. Big Brother, Peter. Peter, Big Brother. > [Regarding the UK law forbidding resale of electrical appliances] >> The wisdom of the UK's law was demonstrated in our community a few [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > appliance is faulty before buying. Doesn't the axiom caveat emptor > apply in the UK any more? It frustrates me as I wander past our dumpsters. Occasionally I will see a microwave or TV monitor with the power cord neatly snipped off. Our condo management accumulates some other equipment in a little "salvage yard", where small appliances are stored for some entrepreneur to come by and haul it off for a minimal fee. I have looked for usable equipment in that area, as well. Not all of the cords have been snipped, so I assume some dog-walker passing by has done his bit for safety, or is collecting the copper for his own purposes, and it is not a managerial decision. (I have found some usable equipment which I can post on the Freecycle list-serve. Also some gardening implements and other such goodies.) > >> I've been in only one Wal-Mart, in New Hampshire. It was dark, > >> depressing, and I'm pretty certain there was a homeless woman doing [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > electrical equipment second-hand. It can't even be dumped unless the > mains plug has been removed. Crikey. The charity shop over the road is breaking the law, then. And so are a lot of the people using the local tip. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> >> I've been in only one Wal-Mart, in New Hampshire. It was dark, >> >> depressing, and I'm pretty certain there was a homeless woman doing [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Crikey. The charity shop over the road is breaking the law, then. And so >are a lot of the people using the local tip. I was thinking about boot sales. Aren't small electric appliances often sold individual-to-individual? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>> I've been in only one Wal-Mart, in New Hampshire. It was dark, >>>>> depressing, and I'm pretty certain there was a homeless woman >>>>> doing drugs in the bathroom. I shop in thrift stores and have a >>>>> high tolerance for cheapness, but even I have some standards. I still haven't quite worked out why some supermarkets make me more uncomfortable than others. Asda, the UK's Wal-Mart subsidiary, isn't at all dirty, but it makes me want to wash, so I never go there. The main Coventry Tesco is unpleasant, while the Cheltenham one is fine. All Waitroses are pleasant places, with annoying staff and some piss-taking prices. >>>> ** warning ** >>>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>>> It was actually fairly spacious and well-lit. The shelves with >>>> electronics were pretty jumbled up though. [...] >>> You couldn't have done that here. It is illegal to sell consumer >>> electrical equipment second-hand. It can't even be dumped unless the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I was thinking about boot sales. Aren't small electric appliances > often sold individual-to-individual? Yes, they are. And the pawn shops are still selling secondhand electricals as far as I know. Charity shops vary: as somebody said just now, they need to get them checked for safety by a qualified electrician, and few charity shops can do that. I imagine those which do use an electrician who does it as a voluntary contribution. SignatureMike. >> >If Wal-Mart is does something, you can be confident they're doing it to >> >make a buck. Customer pleasure is not high on Wal-Mart's list of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >True. I don't understand how Wal-Mart stays in business. Some people place bargains ahead of pleasantness. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE On Apr 26, 9:10 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I'd rather have a penny off the bill than pay it to have some total > stranger talk to me when I go into the supermarket. Ditto. And I must add I always find the Wal-Mart greeters very creepy. I don't need or want to be greeted when I go into a shop. If I need to speak to someone in a shop, it is to ask details of merchandise or actual help finding something. Neither greeters nor anyone else in most shops, definitely including Wal-Mart, seems to be able to help in either of these regards. I just feel very awkward when seeing a Wal-Mart greeter. Possibly because I imagine how much I would hate to do the job. Must be turning into a Grumpy Old Woman. Or that MBTI 'you are an introvert' measure was really really right. cheers, Stephanie > Ditto. And I must add I always find the Wal-Mart greeters very > creepy. I don't need or want to be greeted [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > awkward when seeing a Wal-Mart greeter. Possibly > because I imagine how much I would hate to do the job. I don't go into either a Wal-Mart or a Home Depot very often, so when I do I find the greeter useful to direct me to the product I'm looking for. If one spends a lot of time shopping at Wal-Mart then I supposet the greeter is superfluous. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> Ditto. And I must add I always find the Wal-Mart greeters very >> creepy. I don't need or want to be greeted [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > looking for. If one spends a lot of time shopping at Wal-Mart then > I supposet the greeter is superfluous. I avoid Wal-Mart for two reasons: the reputation for driving out of business manufacturers who become dependent on them for sales and then won't meet their price demands; the people who shop there seem to have grown to purchasing age without developing any need to be considerate of others. Y'all can imagine. One of my two locals (I buy dog food there) seems to have a mandate to hire -challenged folks as well as oldsters. Some of the greetings are unintelligible, to be kind. I'd wait to ask one of the aisle-blocking gossiper employees for directions, if I were to forget where the dog food is. SignatureFrank ess >>> Ditto. And I must add I always find the Wal-Mart greeters very >>> creepy. I don't need or want to be greeted [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >business manufacturers who become dependent on them for sales and then >won't meet their price demands; This is a common complaint about Wal-Mart, but one that doesn't bother me in the slightest. Those vendors willingly jumped into bed with Wal-Mart. They were just as aware of Wal-Mart's practices as you are. It reminds me of the story of the (animal) and the snake. There are many versions of the story, but they all end: "You knew what I was when you picked me up". SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > >>> Ditto. And I must add I always find the Wal-Mart greeters very > >>> creepy. I don't need or want to be greeted [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > many versions of the story, but they all end: "You knew what I was > when you picked me up". Mostly boys and girls instead of animals, Google informs me. Supposedly derived from an old native American legend, Jan >>>> Ditto. And I must add I always find the Wal-Mart greeters very >>>> creepy. I don't need or want to be greeted [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >many versions of the story, but they all end: "You knew what I was >when you picked me up". It's similar here with regard to the two major grocery outlets. The suppliers are given good contracts at first but the chain then changes them and they are forces to either cut quality or lose money. This is after the competition has been eliminated or significantly reduced. Woollies and Coles are also buying up liquor stores (some of the smaller independents buy retail as its cheaper than their wholesale price). The fear is that when they have enough of a monopoly, their margins will increase and there won't be any competition. So, they didn't know what the snake was when they picked it up. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >I avoid Wal-Mart for two reasons: the reputation for driving out of >business manufacturers who become dependent on them for sales and then >won't meet their price demands; ITYM "won't shift all their operations to China when Bentonville tells them to". -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>I avoid Wal-Mart for two reasons: the reputation for driving out of >>business manufacturers who become dependent on them for sales and then >>won't meet their price demands; > > ITYM "won't shift all their operations to China when Bentonville tells > them to". Never having been a frequent Wal-Mart shopper*, I can't add much to the comments about the original question ("What are Wal-Mart Greeters?"), but the China angle is something I will discuss a bit. That is: By buying big batches of products made in China or other low-wage countries, Wal-Mart has provided affordable prices to many of its customers. (Note that Wal-Mart is becoming pretty-much world-wide -- if it isn't so already.) On the other hand, Wal-Mart has hurt many manufacturers -- and said manufacturers' employees -- in the US and other countries. Consider the textile industry: In the USA, at least, textile workers' jobs are all but gone; textile products in US stores are not "Made in USA" any more. Another result is that the quality of textile products found at Wal-Mart is not always very good, and some "name brands" do not have the good reputations they once had. The same can't necessarily be said of other Wal-Mart items -- electronic items, for instance. My thinking: If prices to the consumer continue to fall via Wal-Mart or any other retailer, then jobs will continue to be lost and/or wages will continue to fall. And then what? Will the drop to lower wages/lower prices be something that will benefit people overall (eventually), or would it just ruin some folks lives while others prosper? * My husband, Brian, and I do shop at Wal-Mart occasionally, especially when we're in Tennessee, but most of our shopping is done at other local stores/shops. And I have a cousin who works for Wal-Mart (in TN). She earns, at a guess, maybe $8-9/hr, but is limited to 38 (or fewer) hours per week. I think she's considered "full-time." She feels that Wal-Mart is a good employer overall. SignatureMaria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of east Tennessee. >* My husband, Brian, and I do shop at Wal-Mart occasionally, especially >when we're in Tennessee, but most of our shopping is done at other local >stores/shops. And I have a cousin who works for Wal-Mart (in TN). She >earns, at a guess, maybe $8-9/hr, but is limited to 38 (or fewer) hours >per week. I think she's considered "full-time." She feels that Wal-Mart >is a good employer overall. I see she's managed to avoid a complaint about Wal-Mart employment: working additional hours without compensation. If you like you can research this on Google searching for "Wal-Mart unpaid hours." BTW, for reasons known only to Google, it prefers Walmart to Wal-Mart. >>* My husband, Brian, and I do shop at Wal-Mart occasionally, >>especially [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > working additional hours without compensation. If you like you can > research this on Google searching for "Wal-Mart unpaid hours." Hmm. I should ask my cuz about that. (Of course, her reply would be proof of nothing, company-wide). Still, I'll ask. > BTW, for reasons known only to Google, it prefers Walmart to Wal-Mart. I think Google may be correct, but it's hard to tell: Walmart/Wal-Mart/Wal*Mart's own web site has it all three ways. However, the "*" was officially removed from the logo (but not from the store-front signs) some years ago, while I was still working for a company that provided certain services for Walmart stores. And, if I recall correctly, the hyphen was removed last year, but perhaps only on new signs and the like. It is doubtful that the company would dump letterhead, envelopes, and other printed (or manufactured) items until supplies were depleted. Sam Walton's legacy did not include wasting money, methinks. As most know, the star in "Wal*Mart" was placed there as a remembrance of Sam Walton some time after his death in 1992. SignatureMaria Conlon >> BTW, for reasons known only to Google, it prefers Walmart to Wal-Mart. > >I think Google may be correct, but it's hard to tell: >Walmart/Wal-Mart/Wal*Mart's own web site has it all three ways. The company changed its logo recently. I think I first noticed the new logo in advertising around the time of the Super Bowl. (FWIW, Walmart is known in the media business for buying national television almost exclusively. Local store managers don't have authority to buy advertising in local media, and only rarely does the company buy radio.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>> BTW, for reasons known only to Google, it prefers Walmart to Wal-Mart. >> I think Google may be correct, but it's hard to tell: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > advertising in local media, and only rarely does the company buy > radio.) I had to read that twice. I can't even imagine local stores of national chains buying local TV advertising in the UK. We don't really have local TV - there are regions with very slightly different programmes on occasions and which probably show different commercials, but these regional differences each cover about one-sixth of the UK, so an advert for a Warrington shop would be seen across Manchester and Liverpool and would probably be far too expensive in any case. Local radio tends to carry only national adverts for large chains. SignatureDavid >We don't really have >local TV - there are regions with very slightly different programmes on >occasions and which probably show different commercials, but these >regional differences each cover about one-sixth of the UK, Apparently for TV advertising purposes the UK is divided into 14 "macro regions" of which 4 are divided into a total of 15 "micro regions". The macros are also grouped into 7 combinations. The macro regions are the ITV1 franchise regions. Channel 4, Five and GMTV have 6, 4, and 6 advertising regions respectively. Information from: http://www.thinkbox.tv/server/show/nav.916 >so an advert >for a Warrington shop would be seen across Manchester and Liverpool and >would probably be far too expensive in any case. Agreed. > Local radio tends to >carry only national adverts for large chains. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Provided the work isn't necessary for livelihood, I agree that it may > be a nice way for some retirees to pass their time. The ideal part-time work for retirees and some disabled people "Inside work with no heavy lifting." >>A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > positions. Many older people really want to have contact with other > people, a function in life, and an extra income. I don't know about other areas, but our local Walmart pays greeters more than minimun wages. > I don't know about other areas, but our local Walmart pays greeters more > than minimun wages. So you talked to those greeters and they frankly told you what they are paid? Would you, in return, reveal to them what you earn? >> I don't know about other areas, but our local Walmart pays greeters more >> than minimun wages. > >So you talked to those greeters and they frankly told you what they are >paid? Would you, in return, reveal to them what you earn? Perhaps Doug saw the pay rates in adverts recruiting greeters. Perhaps the local Wal-Mart is proud of paying above minimum wages and has mentioned this publically. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Apr 26, 5:17 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >> I don't know about other areas, but our local Walmart pays greeters more > >> than minimun wages. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the local Wal-Mart is proud of paying above minimum wages and has > mentioned this publically. Perhaps Doug, or more likely a friend or relative, works or has worked there as a greeter. Perhaps a credible report on Walmart's employment practices appeared in the local media--those practices have been covered. -- Jerry Friedman > On Apr 26, 5:17 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >So you talked to those greeters and they frankly told you what they are >> >paid? Would you, in return, reveal to them what you earn? >> Perhaps Doug saw the pay rates in adverts recruiting greeters. Perhaps >> the local Wal-Mart is proud of paying above minimum wages and has [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > -- > Jerry Friedman Since I've known the three I've talked to for more than twenty years and the conversations weren't at Walmart I am fairly sure that they where telling me the truth. One the the men I know was working both as a greeter and as a rent-a-cop for some security company. He quit the security company because his wages were higher at Walmart than a the security company. In response to would I tell any of the three what I earn, yes, if the subject came up. Retail pays low wages in general unless you are in management. I'm not defending Walmart's wages, but from the wages I know they don't pay any lower and sometimes better that other retailers. I had a lady friend that worked as a stocker for Walmart and later as third key for Dollar General. Her wages and benefits were significantly better at Walmart than Dollar General despite the fact that she had more responsibility at Dollar General. >> On Apr 26, 5:17 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Walmart than Dollar General despite the fact that she had more > responsibility at Dollar General. The problem isn't what Wal-Mart pays. It's that that is all that's available for new jobs. Wall Street is killing America.. > Wal Mart employs elderly men and women to stand by the doors and greet > people with a friendly "Hello" when they walk in the door. They also [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The customers seem to like it. Sometimes they stop and chat with the > Greeter, and they usually return the "Hello". It has even come to Britain, even though it is 100% US American in a way that runs counter to our own national character. Just before Christmas, I made a trip to Toys R for Us to buy a pair of roller skates for my grandson. At the door, I was greeted cheerily by a young man. I walked stonily past him, without saying a word. Ignored him. The National Character and the British Way of Life is something that must be defended, or it will be lost. We have already lost the "Have a good day" battle at Sainsbury's. Can't stop it coming. Mind your own bloody business, till girl, I shall have a bloody awful day if I want to. What is it to you, anyway? Let us not lose the greeters battle as well. Keep it out of this country by not supporting it. Richard Chambers Leeds UK. >We have already lost the "Have a good day" battle at Sainsbury's. Can't stop >it coming. Mind your own bloody business, till girl, I shall have a bloody >awful day if I want to. What is it to you, anyway? Odd. That seems to have pretty much died out here, at least at the stores I frequent where one still deals directly with a cashier. "Thank you" is the most common -- even from the self-checkout registers, come to think of it. (At the supermarket nearest me, there's a mute "pad" that you can wipe to shut the thing up, but when you touch "check out" it automatically unmutes itself. If you then pay cash, as I normally choose to do, it always helpfully reminds you "don't forget your bills under the scanner", even if no bills were dispensed. But dealing with the things is still better than entrusting your groceries to the people they pay to be cashiers.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness Garrett Wollman filted: >>We have already lost the "Have a good day" battle at Sainsbury's. Can't stop >>it coming. Mind your own bloody business, till girl, I shall have a bloody [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >dispensed. But dealing with the things is still better than >entrusting your groceries to the people they pay to be cashiers.) There may have been one or two times when a human cashier has failed to recognize that I've presented an item for purchase, but I've *never* had an automate checkout work correctly for an entire shopping trip...either they don't like the way I set an item down, or they don't register my coupon....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >>> We have already lost the "Have a good day" battle at Sainsbury's. Can't stop >>> it coming. Mind your own bloody business, till girl, I shall have a bloody >>> awful day if I want to. What is it to you, anyway? >> Odd. That seems to have pretty much died out here, at least at the >> stores I frequent where one still deals directly with a cashier. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> dispensed. But dealing with the things is still better than >> entrusting your groceries to the people they pay to be cashiers.) > There may have been one or two times when a human cashier has failed to > recognize that I've presented an item for purchase, but I've *never* had an > automate checkout work correctly for an entire shopping trip...either they don't > like the way I set an item down, or they don't register my coupon....r I avoid those DIY checkouts like the plague. "You idiot machine! How am I supposed to put this 8ft piece of lumber in the bag?" I usually make a point of telling the human checker how much I hate the machines and remind her that they are intended to put her and her colleagues out of work." Some checkers have told me that I am not alone in my views. Further: Years ago "they" were telling us that automation -- and then again computerization -- was going to reduce people's working hours. What "they" did not tell us was that what would really happen is that the *average* number of working hours would be reduced but with far fewer people working the full 40-hour week for the same wages (often insufficient to live on) and others partially or completely unemployed. Perce >>>> We have already lost the "Have a good day" battle at Sainsbury's. Can't stop >>>> it coming. Mind your own bloody business, till girl, I shall have a bloody [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >Perce Exaclty. I bet you typed that yourself rather than having a secretary/typist do it for you. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > > Wal Mart employs elderly men and women to stand by the doors and greet > > people with a friendly "Hello" when they walk in the door. They also [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > him, without saying a word. Ignored him. The National Character and the > British Way of Life is something that must be defended, or it will be lost. They tried it when the Disney shops first opened over. Greeters stood by the doors and said hello, cheerily, to everyone who entered. The practice did not last long. They do still have shop assistants who wander the floor trying to help customers (or trying to avoid them, depending on whether or not you the customer actually need help) but most shops have those. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> Wal Mart employs elderly men and women to stand by the doors and greet >> people with a friendly "Hello" when they walk in the door. They also [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >awful day if I want to. What is it to you, anyway? Let us not lose the >greeters battle as well. Keep it out of this country by not supporting it. Beware, too, of the ubiquitous expression from America, "Have a nice day!" SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >Beware, too, of the ubiquitous expression from America, "Have a nice >day!" That expression has certainly become insincere and programmed. My annoyance level peaks after an infuriating episode talking to some foreigner on a help-line who clearly has no understanding of the problem ends the conversation with the ironic "is there anything else I can help you with" and "have a nice day." On the other hand, there are people who are genuinely sincere this wish. >>Beware, too, of the ubiquitous expression from America, "Have a nice >>day!" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >you with" and "have a nice day." On the other hand, there are people who >are genuinely sincere this wish. I've often wondered, in those cases where they haven't been able to help you in the slightest, do some clerks intend to be irritating with their "is there anything else I can help you with?" or is the spiel automatic? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > I've often wondered, in those cases where they haven't been able to > help you in the slightest, do some clerks intend to be irritating with > their "is there anything else I can help you with?" or is the spiel > automatic? I think they're given a list of customer responses that they are required to memorize and use, so it becomes automatic. One grocery chain I use has every cashier ask every customer 'Did you find everything you want today?' which is hardly something they're likely to have come up with on your own. And it doesn't make sense. If I really want something I can't find, I bring my problem to the attention of the staff *before* I get into a checkout lineup, not after I reach the cashier with more people waiting behind me. Cheryl >> I've often wondered, in those cases where they haven't been able to >> help you in the slightest, do some clerks intend to be irritating with [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Cheryl When the insipid "Have a nice day!" was introduced years ago, it may have opened the door for a series of automatic, time-saving remarks in stores. I remember the day when customer and clerk often had exchanges, even if they were not heartfelt every time, that actually meant something. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? > Anyway, what is a 'Wal Mart greeter' > and why it is supposed to be bad that them evil guys in Washington > have converted the USA into a nation of them? > > Jan It's a way of saying Washington has allowed our decent paying manufacturing jobs to be shipped overseas. > >A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? > > Anyway, what is a 'Wal Mart greeter' [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It's a way of saying Washington has allowed our decent paying > manufacturing jobs to be shipped overseas. That makes sense, for it is in line with the rest of his slogans. Bit contradictory of course: if all Americans are unproductive why would the Chinese and the rest of the world bother to subsidize them, Jan >> >A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? >> > Anyway, what is a 'Wal Mart greeter' [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Jan That's a question we are debating with the auto-maker bailouts. There are some saying we should become a "service" economy while others say we actually need to make something to remain viable. J. J. Lodder: > A question about American folklore: what are Wal Mart greeters? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and why it is supposed to be bad that them evil guys in > Washington have converted the USA into a nation of them? I recall when casinos hired Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle and a number of sports heroes as greeters after their active careers ended, not only did the MLB commissioner ban them from coaching or other involvement in baseball, but public and press consensus seemed to be that it was just plain sad to see them grubbing for money at the door of gambling establishments -- although I suppose your average high roller might be happy to shake hands and figure it's strictly business. -- Bob Stahl bs filted: >I recall when casinos hired Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle and a number of >sports heroes as greeters after their active careers ended, not only did the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >although I suppose your average high roller might be happy to shake hands >and figure it's strictly business. My stepfather reported being simultaneously impressed and depressed to meet boxer Joe Louis in such a role...impressed because of the man's history and reputation, and depressed because he had obviously lost a lot of brain cells to the deadly mixture of too much time passed and too many blows to the head....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > bs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > obviously lost a lot of brain cells to the deadly mixture of too > much time passed and too many blows to the head....r I was lucky enough to caddy for him before his decline. He was a fellow who had a good idea of how to have fun on a golf course (as opposed to making a good score). SignatureFrank ess |
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