On its thirdmost perch

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Marius Hancu - 26 Apr 2009 06:48 GMT

Hello:

Logically, "its" can refer only to the "bush," however its being placed
in front of it could lead to some ambiguity, such as the "thirdmost
perch from those it, the bird, normally takes," couldn't it?

------
[about a robin]

The bird as usual stops on its thirdmost perch in the holly bush and
studies the lay of the land with a truculent, bead-bright eye.

John Banville, The Sea, p. 117
------

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Thanks.
Marius Hancu

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 26 Apr 2009 12:23 GMT

>Hello:
>
>Logically, "its" can refer only to the "bush," however its being placed
>in front of it could lead to some ambiguity, such as the "thirdmost
>perch from those it, the bird, normally takes," couldn't it?

To me "its" refers logically to the bird.

The bird has at least three perches, regular perching places. What is
not clear from the quoted text is whether it has three perches in the
holly bush, or whether one or two of the three are in other places.

>------
>[about a robin]
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>John Banville, The Sea, p. 117
>------

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

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Marius.Hancu@gmail.com - 26 Apr 2009 13:07 GMT

On Apr 26, 7:23 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

> >Logically, "its" can refer only to the "bush," however its being placed
> >in front of it could lead to some ambiguity, such as the "thirdmost
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> >John Banville, The Sea, p. 117

OK, I can see that.

Thanks.
Marius Hancu

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John Holmes - 03 May 2009 08:31 GMT

> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> John Banville, The Sea, p. 117

To me, it seems to imply that the bird, whenever it lands in the bush,
always hops to another branch and then another, before stopping to look
around. They may not be the same regular branches each time. Perhaps the
habit of not stopping where it first lands is a protective behaviour to
confuse predators.

Signature

Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

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franzi - 03 May 2009 15:24 GMT

> > Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> habit of not stopping where it first lands is a protective behaviour to
> confuse predators.

Better to ask what"thirdmost" can mean, though I disagree with Marius
that "it" is the bush. "Its thirdmost perch" must be the bird's
thirdmost perch, because perches belong to birds and not to bushes.

"Thirdmost" is an internally contradictory construction. It means
superlatively third, or more third than anything else. Whazzat mean?
Third is third, and they don't come more third than that. If Banville
is trying to make a point, it is too subtle for this reader. If he
isn't, he needs editing.

--
franzi

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CDB - 03 May 2009 16:56 GMT

>>> Logically, "its" can refer only to the "bush," however its being
>>> placed in front of it could lead to some ambiguity, such as the
>>> "thirdmost perch from those it, the bird, normally takes,"
>>> couldn't it?
>>> ------
>>> [about a robin]

>>> The bird as usual stops on its thirdmost perch in the holly bush
>>> and studies the lay of the land with a truculent, bead-bright eye.

>>> John Banville, The Sea, p. 117

>> To me, it seems to imply that the bird, whenever it lands in the
>> bush, always hops to another branch and then another, before
>> stopping to look around. They may not be the same regular branches
>> each time. Perhaps the habit of not stopping where it first lands
>> is a protective behaviour to confuse predators.

> Better to ask what"thirdmost" can mean, though I disagree with
> Marius that "it" is the bush. "Its thirdmost perch" must be the
> bird's thirdmost perch, because perches belong to birds and not to
> bushes.

Agreed. "It" is definitely the bird, the subject of the sentence, and
not the bush, which has yet to be mentioned where "its" comes in, and
then only appears as the object of a prepositional phrase modifying
"perch".

> "Thirdmost" is an internally contradictory construction. It means
> superlatively third, or more third than anything else. Whazzat
> mean? Third is third, and they don't come more third than that. If
> Banville is trying to make a point, it is too subtle for this
> reader. If he isn't, he needs editing.

I suspect it's the third-topmost, the third from the topmost of the
perches the bird takes. It could be the third from any exteme point
of reference, I suppose (leftmost, rightmost, innermost, outermost,
foremost, hindmost, uppermost, bottom-most), but, with no point
mentioned, the top is probably the default. The other possibility, as
John noted, is "third perch taken", but then "third" really would be
better (can't say "firstmost"; the compounds all seem to refer to
space, not time).

I think Jerome Bixby's "The Holes Around Mars" has been mentioned
here before, but Googlegroups won't open right now. The punchline of
the story was that the third moon of Mars, orbiting at about
head-height, was called "Bottomos". Whee, if I may say so.**

*"Third" as in "rose again on the third day". We haven't entirely
abandoned the ancients' habit of counting the starting-point.

**GGps back on. Yes, several times. As here, Ron Draney's posting
#12.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_frm/thread/f54d8f77f9688
d5/ced942024252d468?lnk=gst&q=bottomos#ced942024252d468

http://tinyurl.com/cyp4ol

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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009

On its thirdmost perch