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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009To Coin a Villanelle
To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; To make it circulate is vital too. The market must esteem the minter's wit. You can't hoard money once you've minted it; You have to spread the muck, as Bacon knew. To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit. Survival craves the specie to be fit; A counterfeit will meet its Waterloo. The market must esteem the minter's wit. Your coinage may be deemed not worth one whit; If so, neologising's not for you. To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit. You might invent a law like that of Skitt; Immortal fame is for the lucky few. The market must esteem the minter's wit. Your "random hedgehogs" might well be a hit, Or just a hapax, gone like morning dew. To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; The market must esteem the minter's wit.  SignatureJames Hogg >To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; >To make it circulate is vital too. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; >The market must esteem the minter's wit. Estimable! SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > To make it circulate is vital too. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > The market must esteem the minter's wit. <applause> SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > To make it circulate is vital too. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > The market must esteem the minter's wit. Laureate for life. That's our final offer. > > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > > To make it circulate is vital too. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Laureate for life. That's our final offer. Formidable verse. Lewis Carroll gave us neologisms galore, without definition, in Jabberwocky -- for pronunciation guidance;,see: http://tinyurl.com/cncp9q Attempts to make his new words have particular meanings, from time to time and fairly often, have failed, again showing the difficulty of controlled language creation. -- Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > > > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > > > To make it circulate is vital too. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > time and fairly often, have failed, again showing the difficulty of > controlled language creation. Um, Ozzie, Carroll himself, speaking through Humpty Dumpty, explained the neologisms in Jabberwocky. For example "chortle" is a portmanteau of "chuckle" and "snort." Perhaps people have sought deeper meanings. The poem itself considerably antedated TTLGAWAFT, for whatever that means. SignatureBob Lieblich Who has had it in memory for well over five decades > > > > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > > > > To make it circulate is vital too. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Bob Lieblich > Who has had it in memory for well over five decades The link in my posting gives four explanations by Carroll himsel in the Author's Preface (1896) to _Through the Looking-Glass_. The one you give is not included, but I am not sure that requires an oy or um. -- Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > > > > > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > > > > > To make it circulate is vital too. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > -- > Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego Oops. I should have read your post more carefully. _mea culpa_. Chortle is now a pretty good word for a laugh, and my original post was too broadly stated even if true as to several of the neologisms. -- Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > > > > > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > > > > > To make it circulate is vital too. [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > The link in my posting gives four explanations by Carroll himsel in > the Author's Preface (1896) to _Through the Looking-Glass_. I didn't see that on the page you cited. The one > you give is not included, but I am not sure that requires an oy or > um. As Bob says, it's all right there in TTLG. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > To make it circulate is vital too. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > The market must esteem the minter's wit. Good God. "Specie" is my favorite part, by the way. (Note to self: start discussions of the sestina, bouts-rimés, the chant royal, the pantoum, etc. Or maybe not the pantoum.) -- Jerry Friedman In article <6f6f1624-f976-41fc-8425-db7e5f48330b@f1g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, > > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > > To make it circulate is vital too. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > (Note to self: start discussions of the sestina, bouts-rimés, the > chant royal, the pantoum, etc. Or maybe not the pantoum.) That's just a random hedgehog and you know it. SignatureBeing a screenwriter is not enough for a full creative life. -- William Goldman >In article ><6f6f1624-f976-41fc-8425-db7e5f48330b@f1g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >That's just a random hedgehog and you know it. Round up these random hedgehogs and train them. Tha auditions for _America's Got Talent_ are not yet finished. There is still time. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Round up these random hedgehogs and train them. Tha auditions for > _America's Got Talent_ are not yet finished. There is still time. It'll probably look something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8 SignatureWatch out for the random hedgehogs MC filted: >> Round up these random hedgehogs and train them. Tha auditions for >> _America's Got Talent_ are not yet finished. There is still time. > >It'll probably look something like this: > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8 That's the kind of ad you'd expect from a company founded by Ross Perot....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >> To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; >> To make it circulate is vital too. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >"Specie" is my favorite part, by the way. Thanks to you and other reviewers. Once I had chosen the two rhymes and written the repeating lines, the word "fit" suggested itself, and in turn suggested survival and specie. All I had to do then was resist my natural inclination to use rhyming words like "sh.t", "poo" and "loo" (better say discard the lines I had already written - they stank). >(Note to self: start discussions of the sestina, bouts-rimés, the >chant royal, the pantoum, etc. Or maybe not the pantoum.) Why not? Until a few days ago I didn't know what a villanelle was. I'm not entirely happy with the repetition in line 4, where "minted" appears just after a line with "minter's". None of the synonyms fitted as they were all monosyllabic (coined, struck, stamped). The only possible alternative I could come up with refers to the way early coins were struck, and it gives a good alliteration: You can't hoard money once you've hammered it; But I rejected that as too obscure. And it seemed pointless to avoid repetition in a poem that is deliberately repetitive. SignatureJames >Until a few days ago I didn't know what a villanelle >was. Oh, good grief. I was imagining your having practised them at your mother's knee. Respect! SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> Until a few days ago I didn't know what a villanelle >> was. > > Oh, good grief. I was imagining your having practised them at your > mother's knee. Respect! Getting scary, isn't it? SignatureMike. "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote : >>> Until a few days ago I didn't know what a villanelle >>> was. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Getting scary, isn't it? Motion's passing soon, isn't he? The stall will be vacant .... pe >"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote : >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >Motion's passing soon, isn't he? The stall will be vacant .... A word to someone privy to the selection process, perhaps? SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote : >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > A word to someone privy to the selection process, perhaps? If they're not otherwise engaged, and at their convenience, of course. SignatureMike. >>> "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote : >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >If they're not otherwise engaged, and at their convenience, of course. I'm now seeing a seal. Is there a Stuck Skit Syndrome? SignatureRobin (No, not that Skitt) (BrE) Herts, England >>>> "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote : >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >I'm now seeing a seal. Is there a Stuck Skit Syndrome? Hmm. I was hoping that somebody would find the "Lord Privy Seal" skit (was it from TW3?) and post the Youtube link. Is it one of those they threw away? SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>> "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote : >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >(was it from TW3?) and post the Youtube link. Is it one of those they >threw away? It was long before even commercial videotape - 1963. Very little of TW3 survives, and I don't think I've seen that since it was originally shown - one of the hightlights of their first season. For those who don't remember, or never saw it, it poked fun at the brainless TV News habit of illustrating every reference with irrelevant pictures. There were a number of items, the last containing a reference to the Rt. Hon. Something-or-other, the Lord (picture of a peer in his robes) Privy (picture of a grotty outdoor toilet) Seal (picture of a performing seal balancing a ball on its nose). SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>>>>> "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote : >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >peer in his robes) Privy (picture of a grotty outdoor toilet) Seal >(picture of a performing seal balancing a ball on its nose). That's the one. FWIW, TW3 was the first programme I ever knew that would stop a party in its tracks, including the bedroom bits, and have everyone gathering around the TV. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>>>> "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote : >>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >would stop a party in its tracks, including the bedroom bits, and have >everyone gathering around the TV. One of its other striking features was that, at least for the first couple of seasons, it didn't have a scheduled finishing time; it was the last programme of the night, and went on until they ran out of material. It gave a new meaning to "topical", as well; they were usually still writing well after transmission had started. But it was the look of it that was the real shock; it was the first programme which allowed cameras and other miscellaneous equipment to appear on screen, and, I think, the first not to care about shooting into lights. You were never allowed to forget that what you were seeing was a TV studio; all other programmes disguised it as something else. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" > Hmm. I was hoping that somebody would find the "Lord Privy Seal" skit > (was it from TW3?) and post the Youtube link. Is it one of those they > threw away? I misread "skit" as "kit" and wondered whether I should look around IKEA. SignatureRob Bannister >> Hmm. I was hoping that somebody would find the "Lord Privy Seal" skit >> (was it from TW3?) and post the Youtube link. Is it one of those they >> threw away? > >I misread "skit" as "kit" and wondered whether I should look around IKEA. They'd probably have something you could crap in. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England Robin Bignall filted: >>> Hmm. I was hoping that somebody would find the "Lord Privy Seal" skit >>> (was it from TW3?) and post the Youtube link. Is it one of those they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >They'd probably have something you could crap in. That'd be the DUMPPUR line of merchandise....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Robin Bignall filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >That'd be the DUMPPUR line of merchandise....r You might also need some DUBBELKRÄPP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au2pLj5YOAU&feature=related SignatureJames On Apr 27, 10:44 am, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > >> "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > >> Motion's passing soon, isn't he? The stall will be vacant .... That one gave me pause till I remembered that I've heard of someone with the surname "Motion". I wonder whether anyone has called him "movement". > > A word to someone privy to the selection process, perhaps? > > If they're not otherwise engaged, and at their convenience, of course. I'm sure they'll do what they can. -- Jerry Friedman >On Apr 27, 10:44 am, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >That one gave me pause till I remembered that I've heard of someone >with the surname "Motion". Possibly Andrew Motion, a poet, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Motion > I wonder whether anyone has called him >"movement". My niece took a Creative Writing writing course under Professor Motion at the University of East Anglia. She hasn't mentioned any playful names for him. >> > A word to someone privy to the selection process, perhaps? >> >> If they're not otherwise engaged, and at their convenience, of course. > >I'm sure they'll do what they can. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Apr 27, 5:02 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:42:57 -0700 (PDT), jerry_fried...@yahoo.com > wrote: > > >On Apr 27, 10:44 am, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> > >wrote: ... > >> >> Motion's passing soon, isn't he? The stall will be vacant .... > > >That one gave me pause till I remembered that I've heard of someone > >with the surname "Motion". > > Possibly Andrew Motion, a poet,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Motion Yes, part of what I remembered was that he's the poet laureate, which is what Philip was talking about. > > I wonder whether anyone has called him > >"movement". > > My niece took a Creative Writing writing course under Professor Motion > at the University of East Anglia. She hasn't mentioned any playful names > for him. Sorry, I wasn't really wondering. I meant my suggestion to add to the passing-stall-privy-otherwise-engaged-convenience sequence; likewise "do" and "can" below. Come to think of it, Philip may have had "movement" in mind from the start. > >> > A word to someone privy to the selection process, perhaps? > > >> If they're not otherwise engaged, and at their convenience, of course. > > >I'm sure they'll do what they can. -- Jerry Friedman >On Apr 27, 5:02 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Yes, part of what I remembered was that he's the poet laureate, which >is what Philip was talking about. No more. Carol Ann Duffy has taken his place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Ann_Duffy SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>On Apr 27, 5:02 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >No more. Carol Ann Duffy has taken his place. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Ann_Duffy More at: http://www.culture.gov.uk/reference_library/media_releases/6131.aspx and with photo: http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page19194 SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>On Apr 27, 5:02 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > No more. Carol Ann Duffy has taken his place. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Ann_Duffy In the spirit of CAD, I'd like to thank AUE for letting me make this posting, which I'm going to do on behalf of male Usenetters everywhere (whether they want me to or not). Thanks! SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >> On Apr 27, 5:02 pm, "Peter Duncanson [...] >>> Possibly Andrew Motion, a >>> poet,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Motion [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No more. Carol Ann Duffy has taken his place. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Ann_Duffy And her irritating speech-impediment will probably do as much to put people off poetry as any number of bad school English lessons. I know it's grotesquely, even culpably, unfair, but I've never been able to stop myself thinking she could control it if she wanted to. But if Gillian Clarke says she's a Good Egg, then she's a Good Egg. SignatureMike. >>> On Apr 27, 5:02 pm, "Peter Duncanson > [...] [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > stop myself thinking she could control it if she wanted to. But if > Gillian Clarke says she's a Good Egg, then she's a Good Egg. Damn Good Egg. Damn fine poet, although I don't much enjoy hearing her read her own work. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>> On Apr 27, 5:02 pm, "Peter Duncanson >> [...] [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> stop myself thinking she could control it if she wanted to. But if >> Gillian Clarke says she's a Good Egg, then she's a Good Egg. Only the people that listen to her read her own stuff. Most people will come to her poetry printed. >Damn Good Egg. Damn fine poet, although I don't much enjoy hearing her >read her own work. I have never yet heard a poet read their own work well. Except maybe Roger McGough. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>>> On Apr 27, 5:02 pm, "Peter Duncanson >>> [...] [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I have never yet heard a poet read their own work well. Except maybe > Roger McGough. Yes, funny, that. T.S.Eliot pretty dreary, Yeats tone-deaf. Oh, but Dylan Thomas: wonderful. The aforesaid Gillian Clarke, interestingly (being the only poet I've ever talked to about it), actually claimed to prefer poets doing it themselves: she said actors put too much of themselves into it. Oh, and my sister says she doesn't hear CAD as speech-impedimented at all. So perhaps one of my numerous idiosyncrasies. SignatureMike. >Amethyst Deceiver wrote: >> On Fri, 01 May 2009 22:10:53 +0100, LFS >>>>> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:56:05 -0700 (PDT), jerry_friedman@yahoo.com >>>>>> On Apr 27, 5:02 pm, "Peter Duncanson >>>>>>> Possibly Andrew Motion, a >>>>>>> poet,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Motion >>>>>> Yes, part of what I remembered was that he's the poet laureate, >>>>>> which is what Philip was talking about. >>>>> No more. Carol Ann Duffy has taken his place. >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Ann_Duffy [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Oh, and my sister says she doesn't hear CAD as speech-impedimented at >all. So perhaps one of my numerous idiosyncrasies. It's not all your own. I agree. I'd need to hear a re-run to firm up on this, but as I recall it, her sound has notes of a cleft palate. NTTAWWACP, BIGUMN. SignaturePaul >> On Apr 27, 10:44 am, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > at the University of East Anglia. She hasn't mentioned any playful > names for him. [...] She must have missed the one used in literary circles, "Pelvic Motion". These poets can be randy sods. SignatureMike. >On Apr 27, 10:44 am, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >-- >Jerry Friedman You got the "Jerry" and the "can" in the wrong order. SignatureJames > On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:42:57 -0700 (PDT), > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > You got the "Jerry" and the "can" in the wrong order. Fuel containers are in this now? I must admit I should have been jerry to one meaning of my name, but I forgot. I think I'll forget it again now. -- Jerry Friedman >> On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:42:57 -0700 (PDT), >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >Fuel containers are in this now? Not really. I'm just playing word association football again. ObEtym: The "jerry" in "jerrycan" comes from "German" while "jerry" as a chamberpot is short for "Jeroboam". SignatureJames On Apr 26, 4:07 pm, "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote: > >>> Until a few days ago I didn't know what a villanelle > >>> was. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Motion's passing soon, isn't he? The stall will be vacant .... Any rumors that James might get the job were apparently duff. -- Jerry Friedman >On Apr 26, 4:07 pm, "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Any rumors that James might get the job were apparently duff. But I expect he can still turn a pretty carol. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ James Hogg wrote, in <doc9v4hmimsbmhg5j4e8gmq99m5aap7mpa@4ax.com> on Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:34:56 +0200: > >> To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > >> To make it circulate is vital too. [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > But I rejected that as too obscure. And it seemed pointless to > avoid repetition in a poem that is deliberately repetitive. For your next trick - a sestina. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > James Hogg wrote, in <doc9v4hmimsbmhg5j4e8gmq99m5aap7...@4ax.com> > on Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:34:56 +0200: [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > For your next trick - a sestina. In case you decide to do that, I'll pass on some advice from one of my poetry teachers, James Richardson. You need to make sure you have something for the fifth stanza. Writers of sestinas usually have something in mind for the sixth stanza and the envoy, but they can leave the fifth pretty flat (as I did, despite this warning). -- Jerry Friedman My admiration! Wish I were equally talented in Chinese poetry. May I ask your permission for citing and translating this poem on my site? Best, Yentzu "James Hogg" <Jas.Hogg@gOUTmail.com> ???????:eua8v4du7umn0j4dru4838cgh3dakhjbi4@4ax.com... > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > To make it circulate is vital too. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > To coin a phrase is not the hardest bit; > The market must esteem the minter's wit. >My admiration! Wish I were equally talented in Chinese poetry. May I ask >your permission for citing and translating this poem on my site? Feel free. All I ask in return is that you give me a link to the site. SignatureJames "James Hogg" <Jas.Hogg@gOUTmail.com> ???????:17uav4h0sqb1g5qeondidvr942u8gohsua@4ax.com... >>My admiration! Wish I were equally talented in Chinese poetry. May I ask >>your permission for citing and translating this poem on my site? > > Feel free. > > All I ask in return is that you give me a link to the site. Tks. Here is my site: www.yentzu.idv.tw I am rushing to meet the deadline of finishing a book. So, I may not do it immediately. But I will let you know when I have done that. Best, Yentzu |
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