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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Fonts,font designers and numbers.
Hello All! I have mentioned this before but I could not name an example. I recently read Ann Perry's new book "Execution Dock", which is printed in an attractive, legible, serif font called Centaur (Bruce Rogers, 1929.) The thing that annoys me about this font and several others is that no distinction is made between the number "1" and the uppercase letter "I". I wonder why font designers do this? I agree with the architect Louis Sullivan and his saying: "Form follows function". Another example is the anonymous font used in Paul Harvey's "Oxford Companion to English Literature" (Fourth Edition.) In this case, there is some differentiation provided by the sizes of the numbers and letters.  SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Hello All! > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > is some differentiation provided by the sizes of the numbers and > letters. Size does help, so I've never had any trouble with the OCEL, but what infuriate me out of all proportion are those moronic typefaces which don't distinguish capital "I" and small "l". We've bemoaned before the slow death of the minus sign; and I've had to work with designers who thought a hyphen was a "dash". It's because designers are, almost to a man, even now completely oblivious of the "Form follows function" doctrine you mention. SignatureMike. > Size does help, so I've never had any trouble with the OCEL, but what > infuriate me out of all proportion are those moronic typefaces which [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > man, even now completely oblivious of the "Form follows function" > doctrine you mention. My e-mail address begins with "sl560". For a while my calling cards had it spelled out, too: "es el five six zero". SignatureSML, punctunating all English 'n' stuff >> Size does help, so I've never had any trouble with the OCEL, but what >> infuriate me out of all proportion are those moronic typefaces which [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > My e-mail address begins with "sl560". For a while my calling cards had > it spelled out, too: "es el five six zero". My first email account was housed on a machine called ir2lcb, where the l is a letter. The only time I ever allowed myself to use the now happily defunct blink tag on a web page was to draw attention to this. Signatureathel > My e-mail address begins with "sl560". For a while my calling cards had > it spelled out, too: "es el five six zero". I'd say you have "ess" misspelled there. But if it's case-insensitive, why not just put SL in capitals, as you do in your From line? SignatureMark Brader | No programming language is Perfect. Perl comes very close. msb@vex.net | P! e! r! *l?* :-( Not quite "Perfect". Toronto | -- Brian Ingerson > > My e-mail address begins with "sl560". For a while my calling cards had > > it spelled out, too: "es el five six zero". > > I'd say you have "ess" misspelled there. But if it's case-insensitive, > why not just put SL in capitals, as you do in your From line? Come to think of it, I did have it spelled "ess" on the cards. I also recall that I had it in caps, but people still got it wrong. SignatureSML >> Hello All! >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > infuriate me out of all proportion are those moronic typefaces which > don't distinguish capital "I" and small "l". A year or two ago I bought a computer application which required a 20-character registration code to be entered before it would run the first time. This was helpfully printed on the CD in a font that made no distinction at all between 0 (zero) and O (capital o). As the code contained four of these I had to try almost all of the 16 possibilities before I found one that the computer would accept. Another thing that annoys the hell out of me is on-line purchase sites that either require spaces in credit card numbers, or require that there be no spaces, but don't tell you which they require. Even the most moronic programmer should be able to design a system that would ignore spaces it didn't want, or insert spaces that it did want. Signatureathel Athel Cornish-Bowden filted: >Another thing that annoys the hell out of me is on-line purchase sites >that either require spaces in credit card numbers, or require that >there be no spaces, but don't tell you which they require. Even the >most moronic programmer should be able to design a system that would >ignore spaces it didn't want, or insert spaces that it did want. Or hyphens, let's not forget those...not embossed on the card face, but there's no telling what delimiter will have been used by the third-party company that makes the actual cards when they program the magnetic strip on the back...I can speak from experience that practices vary from country to country....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > A year or two ago I bought a computer application which required a > 20-character registration code to be entered before it would run the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > moronic programmer should be able to design a system that would ignore > spaces it didn't want, or insert spaces that it did want. I've had a lot of these - both types mentioned above, plus the ones that either do or do not want the hyphens typed in. SignatureRob Bannister >>> Hello All! >>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >most moronic programmer should be able to design a system that would >ignore spaces it didn't want, or insert spaces that it did want. That's irritating, but what irritates me more are American sites that force me to abbreviate a typical four-line Irish address to three compact lines, the last of which must contain an American state name, or a two letter code for one, plus a ZIP code they recognize. Fortunately, I am seeing fewer of this variety than I once did. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Chuck wrote on Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:08:47 +0100: >> Another thing that annoys the hell out of me is on-line >> purchase sites that either require spaces in credit card >> numbers, or require that there be no spaces, but don't tell >> you which they require. Even the most moronic programmer >> should be able to design a system that would ignore spaces it >> didn't want, or insert spaces that it did want. > That's irritating, but what irritates me more are American > sites that force me to abbreviate a typical four-line Irish > address to three compact lines, the last of which must contain > an American state name, or a two letter code for one, plus a > ZIP code they recognize. Fortunately, I am seeing fewer of > this variety than I once did. -- I can't really disagree with either Chuck or Lyle's comments but, as a matter of interest, are postal codes of the British type used in Ireland? Web sites can find lots of things to irritate the user. When I log off my bank's site, I am asked "Are you sure you want to log off?" I am given the choice of "OK" or "Cancel" when grammatically, "Yes" and something like "No, continue" sounds better to me.. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not James Silverton wrote, in <gt73n4$lpq$1@news.eternal-september.org> on Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:26:46 -0400: > Chuck wrote on Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:08:47 +0100: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > matter of interest, are postal codes of the British type used in > Ireland? No national postal codes of any type in the RoI. Dublin and Cork have numbered postal districts within them, I am in Dublin 13 for instance, but that is it. Very few web sites make it easy to enter an Irish address. The Six Counties have British type codes. > Web sites can find lots of things to irritate the user. When I log off > my bank's site, I am asked "Are you sure you want to log off?" I am > given the choice of "OK" or "Cancel" when grammatically, "Yes" and > something like "No, continue" sounds better to me.. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >I can't really disagree with either Chuck or Lyle's comments but, as a >matter of interest, are postal codes of the British type used in >Ireland? No. They still use the older system where a larger place (Dublin) is divided into numbered postal districts. From _An Post_, the Irish postal service: http://www.anpost.ie/NR/rdonlyres/561B5344-8F8C-429B-8BC7-FE7BF60A4EDD/0/Speedup _singlepages.pdf Each element of the address (e.g. County, Town, Locality, Street) should appear on a separate line. This facilitates our system which matches an address element from our address database. Dublin postal districts should appear on the last line of the address. Abbreviations such as D4 or Dub 1 should not be used. The county name for addresses outside of Dublin postal districts should always appear on the last line. For international addresses, the country should appear on the last line of the address. The address line on a mail piece is read from the bottom line up, and up to 5 lines can be read. A sample: Mr A Sample Company Ballyfermot Road Dublin 10 Another sample: Ms A Sample Company 1025 Northern Road Fermoy County Cork SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>I can't really disagree with either Chuck or Lyle's comments but, as a >>matter of interest, are postal codes of the British type used in >>Ireland? > >No. They still use the older system where a larger place (Dublin) is >divided into numbered postal districts. And the other larger place (Cork) has 4 of them but ignores them completely. Automagic sorting machines came in in time to make post codes unnecessary for post. Marketeers and badly written web sites may weep but life goes on. SignatureOld anti-spam address cmylod at despammed dot com appears broke So back to cmylod at bigfoot dot com >>>I can't really disagree with either Chuck or Lyle's comments but, as a >>>matter of interest, are postal codes of the British type used in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >codes unnecessary for post. Marketeers and badly written web sites may >weep but life goes on. I found a website that said the both Dublin and Cork city had numbered postal districts but when I looked at some addresses in Cork they contained no district numbers so I didn't mention the place. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>I can't really disagree with either Chuck or Lyle's comments but, as a >>>>matter of interest, are postal codes of the British type used in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >postal districts but when I looked at some addresses in Cork they >contained no district numbers so I didn't mention the place. Well they _have_ them but ... SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >>>>I can't really disagree with either Chuck or Lyle's comments but, as a >>>>matter of interest, are postal codes of the British type used in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >postal districts but when I looked at some addresses in Cork they >contained no district numbers so I didn't mention the place. I don't know about Cork, but Dublin has them. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Chuck wrote on Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:08:47 +0100: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > matter of interest, are postal codes of the British type used in > Ireland? I didn't say that, as far as I remember; but I agree with it. [...] SignatureMike. > That's irritating, but what irritates me more are American sites that > force me to abbreviate a typical four-line Irish address to three > compact lines, the last of which must contain an American state name, > or a two letter code for one, plus a ZIP code they recognize. > Fortunately, I am seeing fewer of this variety than I once did. I've been caught a couple of times entering the standard abbreviation for Western Australia, which is of course the same as Washington. As you say, such one-country-centric sites are disappearing. Some of the really clever ones get you to enter your country first and then change the drop-down list of states to something you recognise. SignatureRob Bannister Perth, WA. >I've been caught a couple of times entering the standard abbreviation >for Western Australia, which is of course the same as Washington. As you >say, such one-country-centric sites are disappearing. Some of the really >clever ones get you to enter your country first and then change the >drop-down list of states to something you recognise. And there's Canada and California, South Africa and South Australia (both of which have universities abbeviated as Unisa). SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Steve Hayes filted: >>I've been caught a couple of times entering the standard abbreviation >>for Western Australia, which is of course the same as Washington. As you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >And there's Canada and California, South Africa and South Australia (both of >which have universities abbeviated as Unisa). And a story reported on alt.obituaries a few years ago that kept referring to the deceased being raised in "London" and dying in a "UK hospital".... The University of Kentucky's medical center is in Lexington, about 75 miles north of the town of London....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >> That's irritating, but what irritates me more are American sites that >> force me to abbreviate a typical four-line Irish address to three [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > really clever ones get you to enter your country first and then change > the drop-down list of states to something you recognise. I haven't come across one of those. They mostly seem to assume that you live either in the USA or in Afghanistan. Otherwise you have to find the right place in a drop-down menu with about 200 items. When I first lived in Birmingham 40 years ago my postcode ended in IN, and several times I had letters from the USA that were delayed and arrived after being redirected from Indianapolis. Signatureathel > > I've been caught a couple of times entering the standard abbreviation > > for Western Australia, which is of course the same as Washington. As [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > live either in the USA or in Afghanistan. Otherwise you have to find > the right place in a drop-down menu with about 200 items. If you type the first letter of your country, the menu usually drops automatically to that portion of the list. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > If you type the first letter of your country, the menu usually drops > automatically to that portion of the list. And inserts Vermont instead of Virginia. I don't understand why web authors insist on those drop-down lists. They trust us to type the street name and the city name and the ZIP code correctly but don't think we can get the two-letter state abbreviation right. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > > If you type the first letter of your country, the menu usually drops > > automatically to that portion of the list. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > street name and the city name and the ZIP code correctly but don't > think we can get the two-letter state abbreviation right. I agree that we ought to have the option of just typing in the two letters, and I've seen some forms that offer that option. Otherwise, as another resident of Virginia, I always type "w" when the choose-your-state menu appears. "Virginia" promptly pops up two places above "Washington." SignatureBob Lieblich Across the Potomac from Washington, but let's not get started on that > > > If you type the first letter of your country, the menu usually drops > > > automatically to that portion of the list. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > choose-your-state menu appears. "Virginia" promptly pops up two > places above "Washington." Very clever. I'll try that next time. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> Robert Bannister <robban1@bigpond.com> said: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > If you type the first letter of your country, the menu usually drops > automatically to that portion of the list. And, as I learned here recently, if you start typing the first several letters quickly and without pause, it usually jumps to the correct entry. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |You gotta know when to code, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | Know when to log out, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Know when to single step, | Know when you're through. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |You don't write your program (650)857-7572 | When you're sittin' at the term'nal. |There'll be time enough for writin' http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | When you're in the queue. Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> If you type the first letter of your country, the menu usually drops >> automatically to that portion of the list. > >And, as I learned here recently, if you start typing the first several >letters quickly and without pause, it usually jumps to the correct >entry. When I try that, it jumps all over the list thinking each new letter is the beginning of a new attempt....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > When I try that, it jumps all over the list thinking each new letter is the > beginning of a new attempt....r Ditto. I think it depends on the website. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>> I've been caught a couple of times entering the standard abbreviation >>> for Western Australia, which is of course the same as Washington. As [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If you type the first letter of your country, the menu usually drops > automatically to that portion of the list. I'll have to remember to try that the next time I need to know. I've managed to live this long without knowing it. Signatureathel >>>> I've been caught a couple of times entering the standard abbreviation >>>> for Western Australia, which is of course the same as Washington. As [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I'll have to remember to try that the next time I need to know. I've > managed to live this long without knowing it. In theory, this works with all types of menu, but as Linz pointed out, it depends a lot on the particular website. SignatureRob Bannister > That's irritating, but what irritates me more are American sites that > force me to abbreviate a typical four-line Irish address to three > compact lines, the last of which must contain an American state name, > or a two letter code for one, plus a ZIP code they recognize. > Fortunately, I am seeing fewer of this variety than I once did. I forgot to add in my post of a minute ago: there are still a few sites that insist on your entering a phone number in American format, which does not work at all for some other countries. SignatureRob Bannister James Silverton: > I have mentioned this before but I could not name an example. I recently > read Ann Perry's new book "Execution Dock", which is printed in an > attractive, legible, serif font called Centaur (Bruce Rogers, 1929.) The > thing that annoys me about this font and several others is that no > distinction is made between the number "1" and the uppercase letter "I". Aggravating, isn't it? I ran into the same font in Simon Winchester's recent book about Joseph Needham, "The Man Who Loved China". And "ran into" is the word. Those 1's are *deformed*. They're not actually exactly the same as the I's (the top left serif is different), but they look enough like I's that if the year 1911 is mentioned, you see I9II and stop dead in your tracks. And this is a book where dates in the 20th century come up a *lot*. Idiots. (They were sufficiently ashamed for the font that it wasn't identified in the book, but I found its name by using http://www.identifont.com). SignatureMark Brader "The design of the lowercase e in text faces Toronto produces strong feelings (or should do so)." msb@vex.net -- Walter Tracy My text in this article is in the public domain. >Aggravating, isn't it? I ran into the same font in Simon Winchester's >recent book about Joseph Needham, "The Man Who Loved China". And "ran >into" is the word. Those 1's are *deformed*. They're not actually >exactly the same as the I's (the top left serif is different), but >they look enough like I's that if the year 1911 is mentioned, you see >I9II and stop dead in your tracks. So I take it the designer of this book has never heard of "Old Style Figures"? There's a good reason for them.... -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness Mark Brader: >> ...they look enough like I's that if the year 1911 is mentioned, >> you see I9II and stop dead in your tracks. Garrett Wollman: > So I take it the designer of this book has never heard of "Old Style > Figures"? Blech! Those *all* look deformed, and many too many books use them. > There's a good reason for them.... There's a good reason why they're called *old style*. They're obsolete. SignatureMark Brader "The design of the lowercase e in text faces Toronto produces strong feelings (or should do so)." msb@vex.net -- Walter Tracy My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark wrote on Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:50:18 -0500: > Mark Brader: >>> ...they look enough like I's that if the year 1911 is >>> mentioned, you see I9II and stop dead in your tracks. > Garrett Wollman: >> So I take it the designer of this book has never heard of >> "Old Style Figures"? > Blech! Those *all* look deformed, and many too many books use > them. >> There's a good reason for them.... > There's a good reason why they're called *old style*. They're > obsolete. -- I'm not sure that I know what are "old style" figures. Can someone please define them? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not James Silverton filted: > Mark wrote on Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:50:18 -0500: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I'm not sure that I know what are "old style" figures. Can someone >please define them? Have a butcher's at the the sample digits here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caslon ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? R wrote on 27 Apr 2009 16:12:31 -0700: > James Silverton filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> I'm not sure that I know what are "old style" figures. Can >> someone please define them? > Have a butcher's at the the sample digits here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caslon Maybe, I did not look carefully enough but I did not see any sample digits. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not James Silverton filted: > R wrote on 27 Apr 2009 16:12:31 -0700: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Maybe, I did not look carefully enough but I did not see any sample >digits. They're in the illustration on the right, below the lowercase alphabet....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? R wrote on 27 Apr 2009 17:42:50 -0700: > James Silverton filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> Maybe, I did not look carefully enough but I did not see any >> sample digits. > They're in the illustration on the right, below the lowercase > alphabet....r Ah! I see and they are similar to those in the "Oxford Companion to English Literature" but I am not impressed by the use of size discrimination for a very important matter. They just seem to indicate the innumeracy of font designers. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > R wrote on 27 Apr 2009 17:42:50 -0700: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >discrimination for a very important matter. They just seem to indicate >the innumeracy of font designers. The advantage of old style (non-lining) figures is that they blend nicely into lowercase copy, with its flow of ascenders and descenders. Lining figures look more like capitals and thus stand out more; in some contexts this is almost like shouting, but it is better for mathematics and the like. A disavantage of old style figure is that arabic eleven looks just like roman two, which can be dangerous in bibliographies. SignatureJames James wrote on Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:21:35 +0200: > The advantage of old style (non-lining) figures is that they > blend nicely into lowercase copy, with its flow of ascenders > and descenders. Lining figures look more like capitals and > thus stand out more; in some contexts this is almost like > shouting, but it is better for mathematics and the like. > A disavantage of old style figure is that arabic eleven looks > just like roman two, which can be dangerous in bibliographies. I will not argue that the demands of efficiency and esthetics can conflict and I'll admit that the "old style" of the Oxford Companion can be read quickly for information and is pleasant for "dictionary reading", to which I am addicted. The use of the various elegant, perhaps beautiful, fonts available adds interest to books but I still do not see why there must be a conflict between function and appearance. To a large extent, my objections to the Centaur font that I originally mentioned could be met by using a downward-pointing left serif on the "1" instead of using one identical with a capital "I". Again, the "old style" numbers could be modified in the same way and still keep your mentioned blending into lowercase copy. I wonder if anyone can mention any existing fonts, especially sans-serif, that meet the criteria of both elegance and having quickly recognizable differences between upper case "I", lower case "L" and the numerical "1"? There are other problems, for example with zero "0" and the letter "O" that used to be met by using a "crossed 0" in computer work, tho' I am not fond of it. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > I wonder if anyone can mention any existing fonts, especially > sans-serif, that meet the criteria of both elegance and having quickly > recognizable differences between upper case "I", lower case "L" and the > numerical "1"? There are other problems, for example with zero "0" and > the letter "O" that used to be met by using a "crossed 0" in computer > work, tho' I am not fond of it. I'm not sure you'd call it elegant, but Verdana is sans-serif and distinguishes between zero 0 and upper case O, as well as between upper case I, lower case L and number 1. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > James Silverton filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caslon They look like the old log tables that we used at high school. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au John wrote on Sun, 3 May 2009 21:25:00 +1000: >> James Silverton filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > They look like the old log tables that we used at high school. I see that the size differentiation of other old-style numerals is present and it's an easy font to read but I still dislike the numeral "1" being like an upper-case "I". However, my opinion is not going to change things. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > They look like the old log tables that we used at high school. The tables we used at school weren't made out of old logs, but the wood was so old and hard it was very difficult to carve your initials. SignatureRob Bannister >> They look like the old log tables that we used at high school. > > The tables we used at school weren't made out of old logs, but the > wood was so old and hard it was very difficult to carve your initials. Your school clearly wasn't very environmentally sound; logs are both common and natural. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>> They look like the old log tables that we used at high school. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Your school clearly wasn't very environmentally sound; logs are both > common and natural. This was an all-boys, English "public" school - not common, and I believe a number of unnatural practices took place. SignatureRob Bannister > > James Silverton filted: > > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > They look like the old log tables that we used at high school. Teaching adders to multiply? Brian SignatureDay 91 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project >> > James Silverton filted: >> > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Teaching adders to multiply? I think vipers pick up that up instinctively. If it is necessary to provide instructions, the hands-on approach is not recommended. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Mark Brader: >>> ...they look enough like I's that if the year 1911 is mentioned, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > There's a good reason why they're called *old style*. They're > obsolete. Horses for courses, innit? Depends on the purpose and the surroundings. SignatureMike. Mark Brader: > > There's a good reason why they're called *old style* [digits]. > > They're obsolete. Mike Lyle: > Horses for courses, innit? Depends on the purpose and the surroundings. No, it don't. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "This is as 'real' as your so-called life gets!" msb@vex.net | "Q Who", ST:TNG, Maurice Hurley >Mark Brader: >> > There's a good reason why they're called *old style* [digits]. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >No, it don't. I'm so sorry to have to disabuse you of the notion that your personal preferences are universal. 99% of the time I find your posts here informative and useful, but the remaining 1% of the time you are such an utter twit. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness Garrett Wollman: > I'm so sorry to have to disabuse you of the notion that your personal > preferences are universal. No, but they *should* be. See also below. > 99% of the time I find your posts here informative and useful, but > the remaining 1% of the time you are such an utter twit. Thanks. That's a pretty good score, considering. SignatureMark Brader "Hey, I don't want to control people's lives! Toronto (If they did things right, I wouldn't have to.)" msb@vex.net -- "Coach" >>Mark Brader: >>> > There's a good reason why they're called *old style* [digits]. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >informative and useful, but the remaining 1% of the time you are such >an utter twit. Damn. I'd *kill* for a 1% Twit Factor in my body of posts. Just staying on the shady side of 50% is my goal. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > I have mentioned this before but I could not name an example. I recently > read Ann Perry's new book "Execution Dock", which is printed in an [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > is some differentiation provided by the sizes of the numbers and > letters. You have now got me on my hobbyhorse. I have hardly a good word to say for most fonts. The number of our house is 58. Our next door neighbour receives about 5% of our mail, and we receive about 5% of theirs, because of ill-designed fonts, combined with ill-considered choices of font made (most often) by the senders of junk mail. Not only ill-considered, but inconsiderate to the postman because of its illegibility. I do not join with the ignorant chorus that blames the postman, nationwide, for the increasing number of wrong deliveries. Most of the incorrect deliveries to my house have been the result of fonts. There are certain fonts, such as Arial, in which the upper half of a "6" curls over too far, so as to nearly meet the circular bit in the bottom half of the number, making it look like an "8". Furthermore, the printing (particularly by Readers' Digest and some other junk mailers) is often relatively small and smudgy. The result with such a font is that a smudgy "6" with a curled-over top is almost indistinguishable from an "8", especially when the postman is delivering in poor winter light. Britain is on the same latitude as Hudson Bay, and the sky in winter is often dark grey when the postman delivers. There are similar issues of legibility caused by an excessive loop-up in the lower half of the "5" or "9", yielding the appearance of a "6" or "8" respectively. Not only that, but some fonts have a near-invisible decimal point. I work as an engineering specialist in power station metering, and it is therefore essential for me to be able to see the decimal point easily and quickly, without squinting. In spite of the fact that metering equipment manufacturers must know how essential easy reading of meter outputs (usually on computer screens, for power station metering) is, they continue to produce equipment with twee, small-sized fonts, with near-invisible decimal points, and with excessive loop-overs on the 6's. I believe it is their Sales Departments at fault, anxious to present a "trendy" appearance that they believe (wrongly) will sell better. Other contributors have already mentioned the near-vanishing minus sign. Another bane in the life of a power station metering engineer. What is wrong with a nice big, clearly-visible minus sign? The font to choose for addressing a letter is one with a lesser curl-over (more upright appearance) in the top of a "6", such as provided by Garamond, Times New Roman, or Courier New. Even the Garamond and the Times New Roman fail for power station metering applications, because of their indistinct decimal points and small minus signs. Ideally, I would always use Courier New for any metering work. It is the ultimate in clarity. Richard Chambers Leeds UK. >> I have mentioned this before but I could not name an example. I recently >> read Ann Perry's new book "Execution Dock", which is printed in an [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >The font to choose for addressing a letter is one with a lesser curl-over (more upright appearance) in the top of a "6", such as provided by Garamond, Times New Roman, or Courier New. Even the Garamond and the Times New Roman fail for power station metering applications, because of their indistinct decimal points and small minus signs. >Ideally, I would always use Courier New for any metering work. It is the ultimate in clarity. Which is why I am reading your post displayed on this computer screen in Courier New. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) BrE filted: >>Ideally, I would always use Courier New for any metering work. It is the >>ultimate in clarity. > >Which is why I am reading your post displayed on this computer screen in >Courier New. Ick...too precious by half...I like my typeface without all the little gewgaws intended to make it look like someone carved it with a chisel...if I have to get by on one family, let it be Lucida Sans....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Ick...too precious by half...I like my typeface without all the little > gewgaws > intended to make it look like someone carved it with a chisel...if I have > to get > by on one family, let it be Lucida Sans....r This gives a good distinction between a 1 (one) and an l (el). However, a poorly visible decimal point and a small minus sign. Concerning the 5/8, 5/6 and 8/9 ambiguities, the Lucida is neither the best nor the worst. Overall, It would not be my first choice. Richard Chambers Leeds UK. Richard Chambers filted: >> Ick...too precious by half...I like my typeface without all the little >> gewgaws [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >and 8/9 ambiguities, the Lucida is neither the best nor the worst. Overall, >It would not be my first choice. Fair enough...my preference in newsgroups or anywhere else that requires monospacing is actually Lucida Console, which has a very nice decimal point and minus sign...I will never understand the popularity of Courier in such a setting...for blocks of text where I *don't* need monospace, I'm fond of the much-reviled Comic Sans (Arial and Times? puh-leeze!).... I now understand well why the accountants who were my first end-users insisted on putting brackets around negative numbers instead of preceding them with a simple minus sign; at the time I considered it an affectation....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Fair enough...my preference in newsgroups or anywhere else that requires >monospacing is actually Lucida Console, which has a very nice decimal point and >minus sign... Are you actually looking at the minus sign or at the hyphen? I don't see too many actual minus signs in (non-typeset) computer output, and I've never seen one on Usenet (since my newsreader doesn't support any character encodings that have one). My console font is -adobe-courier-bold-r-normal--14-*-iso8859-1, the original version with ASCII-78 ` and ' characters (as used in PostScript's StandardEncoding). It's a taste I acquired many years ago, when it was one of the few decent monospaced fonts available on every X server. There are probably better choices now, but I'm used to this one, and don't have much need for characters outside the StandardEncoding repertoire. As I recall, Bigelow & Holmes have a patent on some aspect of Lucida's design.[1] The two released a followon called "Lucidux", later renamed "Luxi". Lucida was apparently designed originally for Scientific American. -GAWollman [1] In fact they have nine design patents, but I can't tell which one is which because whatever the USPTO uses to display patent documents is insufficiently standard to work with Opera. SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness Garrett Wollman filted: >>Fair enough...my preference in newsgroups or anywhere else that requires >>monospacing is actually Lucida Console, which has a very nice decimal point and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >output, and I've never seen one on Usenet (since my newsreader doesn't >support any character encodings that have one). I'm using "U+002D: Hyphen-Minus", but it doesn't seem to matter, since "U+00AD: Soft Hyphen" looks equally vivid, and "U+2212: Minus Sign" even more so....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Richard Chambers filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >on putting brackets around negative numbers instead of preceding them with a >simple minus sign; at the time I considered it an affectation....r I have tried Lucida Sans for newsgroup reading, but returned ro Couier New. It is probably just a matter of familiarity rather than of one being better than the other. "I've grown accustomed to her face", as it were. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> Richard Chambers filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > being better than the other. "I've grown accustomed to her face", as it > were. I used to go to a lot of trouble to hand-pick a nice font for emails and newsgroups, but these days, I just go with the Thunderbirds's default, which claims to be New Courier and Times (doesn't look a bit like Times, though). SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >I used to go to a lot of trouble to hand-pick a nice font for emails and >newsgroups, but these days, I just go with the Thunderbirds's default, >which claims to be New Courier and Times (doesn't look a bit like Times, >though). They *are* a-changin', aren't they?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >>> Richard Chambers filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > default, which claims to be New Courier and Times (doesn't look a bit > like Times, though). A courier walks into a bar and the barman says "We don't like your type in here." SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > A courier walks into a bar and the barman says "We don't like your type in > here." [groan accompanied by chuckle] SignatureRob Bannister >> A courier walks into a bar and the barman says "We don't like your type in >> here." > >[groan accompanied by chuckle] Pity we're sans sheriff or we could get that barman arrested. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > Richard Chambers filted: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > monospacing is actually Lucida Console, which has a very nice decimal point and > minus sign... I am also a big fan of Lucida Console. I use it locally, but avoid it as a programmer because I don't know how universally-installed it may be. Distinguishing those pairs is often very important to me, as well as (sometimes) to my users. Courier New is the default choice for that, ugly as it is. I am also quite fond of Centaur, but the computer-font I have called "Centaur" is not the best example of the typeface. (It is "copyright The Monotype Corporation plc. 1990-91-92. Portions copyright 1992 Microsoft Corp.") I have seen printed material using Centaur that impresses me as quite elegant -- though the numerals are usually weird in one way or another. Often, they extend well below the bottom of ordinary letters, which serves to distinguish them, but always jars my sensibilities. The computer font doesn't do that, but it lacks much of that elegance of shape that attracts me to Centaur in the first place. Just can't win. Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- I started out with nothing & still have most of it left. JimboCat wrote on Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:30:33 -0700 (PDT): >> Richard Chambers filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> that requires monospacing is actually Lucida Console, which >> has a very nice decimal point and minus sign... > I am also a big fan of Lucida Console. I use it locally, but > avoid it as a programmer because I don't know how > universally-installed it may be. Distinguishing those pairs is > often very important to me, as well as (sometimes) to my > users. Courier New is the default choice for that, ugly as it > is. > I am also quite fond of Centaur, but the computer-font I have > called "Centaur" is not the best example of the typeface. (It [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > much of that elegance of shape that attracts me to Centaur in > the first place. > Just can't win. There are several differences between Microsoft supplied fonts and the ones I see in print. "Bookman Old Style" is quite a pleasant font with the numeral "1" distinguished by a down-sloping upper serif tho' it is hard to tell it from a lower case "L" without examining closely. The zero "0" and uppercase "O" also are very similar.The different numerical sizes shown in the Wki article on "old-style" are not present. I have to admit that I do most of my writing, both formal and informal, using Arial and, infrequently, Times New Roman or Century Gothic. I used to be a very fast reader, even if I have slowed down somewhat. I believe that I could read serif fonts faster than sans-serif and I think the appearance of a printed book is better with a serif font. Perhaps, that last is irrational because my mind says "computer printout" on seeing sans-serif. Ultimately, I guess the OCR fonts have the best letter/number differentiation but they are pretty horrible to look at and I never use them since OCR programs have become very accurate. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >There are several differences between Microsoft supplied fonts and the >ones I see in print. "Bookman Old Style" is quite a pleasant font with >the numeral "1" distinguished by a down-sloping upper serif tho' it is >hard to tell it from a lower case "L" without examining closely. The >zero "0" and uppercase "O" also are very similar.The different numerical >sizes shown in the Wki article on "old-style" are not present. Times Roman was designed for narrow newspaper columns, but as a default font (does anyone still spell it fount?) for computers it is not really suitable, as most people use wider text. So I try to use Bookman Old Style, except when I'm really trying to save paper and postage. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >Hello All! > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >is some differentiation provided by the sizes of the numbers and >letters. And then there's the confusion between the numeral 1 and the lower case ell. Which is why some time in the mid 70s the unit symbol for litre was changed from lower case l to cap L. Tony P Tony P.: > And then there's the confusion between the numeral 1 and the lower case > ell. Which is why some time in the mid 70s the unit symbol for litre > was changed from lower case l to cap L. No, capital L was introduced as a second symbol for the liter for that reason. Small L was not withdrawn. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "But I want credit for all the words msb@vex.net I spelled *right*!" -- BEETLE BAILEY |
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