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The dot on the 'i'

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James Hogg - 29 Apr 2009 14:47 GMT
I was just looking at "Troy and Homer" by Joachim Latacz on
Google Books, http://tinyurl.com/d8evvq, and reading the bit
about how Rolf Hachmann expressed his doubts as to whether the
site excavated by Schliemann could ever be proved to be Troy.

Latacz writes:
"and the 'other sources', the dot on the 'i' demanded by
Hachmann, had still to be found"

I wonder if Latacz (or his translator) was being naughty here.
The site bore the name Hisarlik, and in Turkish there is no dot
on the second 'i'.

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James

John Dean - 29 Apr 2009 15:04 GMT
> I was just looking at "Troy and Homer" by Joachim Latacz on
> Google Books, http://tinyurl.com/d8evvq, and reading the bit
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> The site bore the name Hisarlik, and in Turkish there is no dot
> on the second 'i'.

I think we're being metaphorical. Hachmann is presumed to want the i's
dotted and the t's crossed. This may be a conversion into an English idiom
of an idiom from another language, though I'd assume Latacz and Hachmann
both generally express themselves in German.
Signature

John Dean
Oxford

James Hogg - 29 Apr 2009 15:16 GMT
>> I was just looking at "Troy and Homer" by Joachim Latacz on
>> Google Books, http://tinyurl.com/d8evvq, and reading the bit
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>I think we're being metaphorical.

Yes, but dead metaphors have a way of coming to life in certain
contexts: a metaphorical dotless 'i' in the same paragraph as a
real Turkish dotless 'i' seems to rule out poor Hisarlik forever.

>Hachmann is presumed to want the i's
>dotted and the t's crossed. This may be a conversion into an English idiom
>of an idiom from another language, though I'd assume Latacz and Hachmann
>both generally express themselves in German.

It makes me wonder what the original said.

Signature

James

tinwhistler - 29 Apr 2009 15:23 GMT
> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:04:34 +0100, "John Dean"
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> --
> James

Maybe the original said that Schliemann did not have the *tittle* to
Troy?
--
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
James Silverton - 29 Apr 2009 16:03 GMT
James  wrote  on Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:16:01 +0200:

>>> I was just looking at "Troy and Homer" by Joachim Latacz on
>>> Google Books, http://tinyurl.com/d8evvq, and reading the bit
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>> I think we're being metaphorical.

> Yes, but dead metaphors have a way of coming to life in
> certain contexts: a metaphorical dotless 'i' in the same
> paragraph as a real Turkish dotless 'i' seems to rule out poor
> Hisarlik forever.

>> Hachmann is presumed to want the i's
>> dotted and the t's crossed. This may be a conversion into an
>> English idiom of an idiom from another language, though I'd
>> assume Latacz and Hachmann both generally express themselves
>> in German.

> It makes me wonder what the original said.

Incidentally, I was surprised at how recent is the expression "dot the
i". The OED  says defining the verb "dot":
"b. To put the dot (·) over the letter i or j. to dot the i's (fig.):
to fill in the particulars, to particularize minutely.

1849 THACKERAY in Scribner's Magi. I. 557/1 I have..dotted the i's. 1865
"
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James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

James Silverton - 29 Apr 2009 16:11 GMT
James  wrote to James Hogg on Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:03:23 -0400:

>>>> I was just looking at "Troy and Homer" by Joachim Latacz on
>>>> Google Books, http://tinyurl.com/d8evvq, and reading the bit
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>>
>>> I think we're being metaphorical.

>> Yes, but dead metaphors have a way of coming to life in
>> certain contexts: a metaphorical dotless 'i' in the same
>> paragraph as a real Turkish dotless 'i' seems to rule out
>> poor Hisarlik forever.

>>> Hachmann is presumed to want the i's
>>> dotted and the t's crossed. This may be a conversion into an
>>> English idiom of an idiom from another language, though I'd
>>> assume Latacz and Hachmann both generally express themselves
>>> in German.

>> It makes me wonder what the original said.

> Incidentally, I was surprised at how recent is the expression "dot the
> i". The OED  says defining the verb "dot":
>  "b. To put the dot (·) over the letter i or j. to dot the i's
> (fig.): to fill in the particulars, to particularize minutely.

> 1849 THACKERAY in Scribner's Magi. I. 557/1 I have..dotted the
> i's. 1865 "

I know I should not reply to my own post but I just noticed that the
OED's Thackeray quotation uses " i's " for multiples of the letter. I
seem to remember many posts deprecating the use of an apostrophe for
plurals.
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James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

James Hogg - 29 Apr 2009 16:24 GMT
> James  wrote to James Hogg on Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:03:23 -0400:
>> Incidentally, I was surprised at how recent is the expression "dot the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>seem to remember many posts deprecating the use of an apostrophe for
>plurals.

In the case of "i's" it would be rather unfortunate if the
apostrophe were omitted.

Signature

James

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 29 Apr 2009 17:14 GMT
> James  wrote to James Hogg on Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:03:23 -0400:
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>seem to remember many posts deprecating the use of an apostrophe for
>plurals.

It's not only the Thackeray quotation. The OED uses that form too.

This version is better:
http://www.joe-ks.com/phrases/phrasesD.htm

   Dot your 'i's and cross your 't's

or, using the convention I'd use here in AUE:

   Dot your "i"s and cross your "t"s

However, the conventions used by the OED save space without sacrificing
comprehensibility.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

James Silverton - 29 Apr 2009 18:22 GMT
Peter  wrote  on Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:14:50 +0100:

>> James  wrote to James Hogg on Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:03:23 -0400:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>> of the letter. I seem to remember many posts deprecating the
>> use of an apostrophe for plurals.

> It's not only the Thackeray quotation. The OED uses that form
> too.

> This version is better:
> http://www.joe-ks.com/phrases/phrasesD.htm

>     Dot your 'i's and cross your 't's

> or, using the convention I'd use here in AUE:

>     Dot your "i"s and cross your "t"s

> However, the conventions used by the OED save space without
> sacrificing comprehensibility.

One extra single or double quote seems a small price.

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James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Don Aitken - 29 Apr 2009 18:25 GMT
> James  wrote to James Hogg on Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:03:23 -0400:
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>seem to remember many posts deprecating the use of an apostrophe for
>plurals.

Most of the deprecators make an exception, as I would myself, where
the item pluralised is a letter. Without the apostrophe, the sentence
would be pretty incomprehensible.

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Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"

James Hogg - 29 Apr 2009 16:21 GMT
> James  wrote  on Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:16:01 +0200:
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>1849 THACKERAY in Scribner's Magi. I. 557/1 I have..dotted the i's. 1865
>"

A fuller version of Thackeray's quotation is found in the OED
under "cross":
"I have..crossed the t's and dotted the i's"

I'm sure someone used it before that.

One thing leads to another when you consult a dictionary. I
looked at "jot" and "tittle". The former is the Greek "iota"
while "tittle" could be applied to various additions to letters
(accents, tilde [same word], cedilla) including the dot on the
'i'.

"1538 ELYOT, Punctus, seu punctum, a poynte or tytle. 1552
HULOET, Tytle or prycke in letters, punctus."

The use of the word "prycke" reminded me that the Swedes still
use the word "prick" for dots on letters. The former prime
minister Göran Persson was rumoured to have introduced himself in
English as "Göran, that's Goran with two pricks".

Signature

James

Amethyst Deceiver - 30 Apr 2009 12:17 GMT

> The use of the word "prycke" reminded me that the Swedes still
> use the word "prick" for dots on letters. The former prime
> minister Göran Persson was rumoured to have introduced himself in
> English as "Göran, that's Goran with two pricks".

The Swedish is 'pricka' (singular) and prickar (plural).

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Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Jens Brix Christiansen - 30 Apr 2009 12:31 GMT
Amethyst Deceiver skrev:

> The Swedish is 'pricka' (singular) and prickar (plural).

Not quite. The indefinite singular is "prick".

There is also a verb "att pricka" which means "to dot" or "to prick".
The present tense of the verb is "prickar" and the past tense is "prickade".

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Jens Brix Christiansen

James Hogg - 30 Apr 2009 13:14 GMT
>Amethyst Deceiver skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>There is also a verb "att pricka" which means "to dot" or "to prick".
>The present tense of the verb is "prickar" and the past tense is "prickade".

And Prick is a Swedish surname. Here's Magnus of that ilk:
http://www.eniro.se/query?search_word=magnus+prick&geo_area=&what=all

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James

Mike Mooney - 30 Apr 2009 15:11 GMT
> Goran with two pricks

He used to manage the England football team.

Mike M
John Dean - 01 May 2009 00:06 GMT
>> Goran with two pricks
>
> He used to manage the England football team.

ITYM ' *they* used to ...'
Signature

John Dean
Oxford

Evan Kirshenbaum - 29 Apr 2009 16:53 GMT
> Incidentally, I was surprised at how recent is the expression "dot the
> i". The OED  says defining the verb "dot":
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 1849 THACKERAY in Scribner's Magi. I. 557/1 I have..dotted the
> i's. 1865 "

Google Books pushes it back a few decades:

   [Attn Jesse Sheidlower: OED antedating]

   You will perceive that I am not very particular in crossing my t's
   and dotting my i's, but you will please to correct that, as well
   as some errours I may have committed in quoting the poets and such
   fellows...

                         Horace De Monde, "The Club-Room", _The
                         Portico_, Jan., 1817

   Had you not much better have dotted your i's, than made a useless
   dash.

                         _The Leodiensian_, Feb., 1828

   We do not think that he could satisfy the banker, by directing his
   attention to the mere formation of the letters, that the name upon
   a bill was a good name; or that he could convince the lover, by an
   examination of the delicate scrawl of his mistress, that the
   manner in which she crossed her T's, or dotted her I's, rendered
   it quite evident that she would make a very unfitting spouse.

                         _The Edinburgh Literary Journal_, 5/23/1829

   Have we not dotted the i's and crossed the t's, and mended the
   punctuation of a dozen articles, more or less?

                         _The American Monthly Magazine_, December,
                         1830

   The Senate has heretofore been what it was intended to be--a body
   of calm, reflecting men, not disturbed by any agitation
   originating with themselves, but having time to regulate and check
   those of the other branch--having in fact a much more elevated and
   useful duty to perform than merely to dot the i's and cross the
   t's of the other body.

                         _Proceedings and Debates of the Virginia
                         State Convention, of 1829-1830_, 1830

It even shows up in an early urban legend:

   I think this rivals the celebrated story of the Dutch commercial
   house, who saved five hundred dollars a month by directing their
   clerks to cease dotting the i's, and crossing the t's, in keeping
   the books.

                         _Proceedings of the Royal Asiatic Society_,
                         July, 1836
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Mark Brader - 30 Apr 2009 06:40 GMT
James Hogg:
>>> Latacz writes:
>>> "and the 'other sources', the dot on the 'i' demanded by
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>> The site bore the name Hisarlik, and in Turkish there is no dot
>>> on the second 'i'.

> ...dead metaphors have a way of coming to life in certain
> contexts: a metaphorical dotless 'i' in the same paragraph as a
> real Turkish dotless 'i' seems to rule out poor Hisarlik forever.

Not if there is a dot on the *first* "i".  Dotted and dotless I are
both letters in Turkish; they're just *different* letters (so "I"
is not the capital of "i").
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Mark Brader, Toronto | "...ordinarily, a 65-pound alligator in an apartment
msb@vex.net          |  would be news."      --James Barron, New York Times

Christian Weisgerber - 29 Apr 2009 19:44 GMT
> Latacz writes:
> "and the 'other sources', the dot on the 'i' demanded by
> Hachmann, had still to be found"
>
> I wonder if Latacz (or his translator) was being naughty here.

This looks like a literal translation of "das i-Tüpfelchen" or "das
Tüpfelchen auf dem i", a common German expression meaning something
like "final flourish".

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Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy@mips.inka.de

Peter Brandt Nielsen - 30 Apr 2009 10:22 GMT
> This looks like a literal translation of "das i-Tüpfelchen" or "das
> Tüpfelchen auf dem i", a common German expression meaning something
> like "final flourish".

Also an idiom in Danish, for what it's worth: "prikken over i'et".
Lars Enderin - 30 Apr 2009 15:49 GMT
>> This looks like a literal translation of "das i-Tüpfelchen" or "das
>> Tüpfelchen auf dem i", a common German expression meaning something
>> like "final flourish".
>
> Also an idiom in Danish, for what it's worth: "prikken over i'et".

In Swedish: Pricken över i'(e)t.
Steffen Buehler - 30 Apr 2009 13:34 GMT
>> Latacz writes:
>> "and the 'other sources', the dot on the 'i' demanded by
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Tüpfelchen auf dem i", a common German expression meaning something
> like "final flourish".

Which Boris Becker irritated 20 years ago: "das wäre dann das i auf dem,
äh, auf dem ..."

But seriously: the fact that "Hisarlik" has no dot on the second i is
for almost sure *not* the reason Latacz chose this metapher. This would
be very far-fetched, almost no German would understand the pun.

Regards
Steffen
 
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