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What is a private?

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azalea2@gmail.com - 30 Apr 2009 11:24 GMT
What is a private?

By EBEN HARRELL Eben Harrell – Tue Apr 28, 5:40 am ET
In February 1976, an outbreak of swine flu struck Fort Dix Army base
in New Jersey, killing a 19-year-old private and infecting hundreds of
soldiers.

From
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090428/hl_time/08599189412900;_ylt=Aoa0RSHRwDWI.N
fWM8T0o752wPIE;_ylu=X3oDMTJqNmtlbTg3BGFzc2V0A3RpbWUvMjAwOTA0MjgvMDg1OTkxODk0MTI5
MDAEY3BvcwMxBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDaG93dG9kZWFsd2l0

HVS - 30 Apr 2009 11:27 GMT
On 30 Apr 2009,  wrote

> What is a private?
>
> By EBEN HARRELL Eben Harrell – Tue Apr 28, 5:40 am ET
> In February 1976, an outbreak of swine flu struck Fort Dix Army
> base in New Jersey, killing a 19-year-old private and infecting
> hundreds of soldiers.

It's a rank in the army -- private/corporal/sergeant, etc.

Signature

Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

azalea2@gmail.com - 30 Apr 2009 11:40 GMT
> On 30 Apr 2009,  wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> It's a rank in the army -- private/corporal/sergeant, etc.

Is that why we also have a movie called 'private ryan'?
Derek Turner - 30 Apr 2009 11:43 GMT
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:40:28 -0700, azalea2 wrote:

> Is that why we also have a movie called 'private ryan'?

yes. Also 'Privates on Parade' which has a deliberate double meaning.
Percival P. Cassidy - 30 Apr 2009 14:55 GMT
>> Is that why we also have a movie called 'private ryan'?

> yes. Also 'Privates on Parade' which has a deliberate double meaning.

ISTR a "Goon Show" episode with a character called "Private Parts."

Perce
Ian Noble - 01 May 2009 00:28 GMT
>>> Is that why we also have a movie called 'private ryan'?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Perce
Private Parts; Hugh Jampton; Singhiz Thingz... Milligan and the rest
took great pleasure in slipping old Army jokes into the script, secure
in the knowledge that the high-ups in the Beeb would never spot them.

Cheers - Ian
Nick Spalding - 01 May 2009 10:46 GMT
Ian Noble wrote, in <0eckv4pbu0ffsfjp3343p3gji2tamf6jr5@4ax.com>
on Fri, 01 May 2009 00:28:43 +0100:

> >>> Is that why we also have a movie called 'private ryan'?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> took great pleasure in slipping old Army jokes into the script, secure
> in the knowledge that the high-ups in the Beeb would never spot them.

My favourite was one involving a large cannon, Min & Henry Bannister and
the punch line "It's your turn in the barrel".
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Percival P. Cassidy - 01 May 2009 14:05 GMT
>>>> Is that why we also have a movie called 'private ryan'?
>>
>>> yes. Also 'Privates on Parade' which has a deliberate double meaning.
>>
>> ISTR a "Goon Show" episode with a character called "Private Parts."

> Private Parts; Hugh Jampton; Singhiz Thingz... Milligan and the rest
> took great pleasure in slipping old Army jokes into the script, secure
> in the knowledge that the high-ups in the Beeb would never spot them.

I've only recently become aware of Hugh Jampton. I don't remember him
from The Goon Show -- but perhaps because I didn't "get it."

Perce
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 01 May 2009 15:46 GMT
> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:55:52 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> took great pleasure in slipping old Army jokes into the script, secure
> in the knowledge that the high-ups in the Beeb would never spot them.

Yet again I'm compelled to doubt censorial cluelessness.  Is there
really someone who wouldn't spot the pun in "Private Parts"?

I don't get the other two.  "Huge hampton"?  Does "hampton" mean
"penis" or something?  And "Sing his things"?

--
Jerry Friedman
Nick Spalding - 01 May 2009 15:53 GMT
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote, in
<a0a1f6ac-137d-4c5a-9a50-a7690810b1c3@d39g2000pra.googlegroups.com>
on Fri, 1 May 2009 07:46:59 -0700 (PDT):

> > On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:55:52 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> I don't get the other two.  "Huge hampton"?  Does "hampton" mean
> "penis" or something?

Does it make better sense if I tell you there is a place called Hampton
Wick?

> And "Sing his things"?

I don't get that one either.
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 01 May 2009 18:24 GMT
> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote, in
> <a0a1f6ac-137d-4c5a-9a50-a7690810b...@d39g2000pra.googlegroups.com>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Does it make better sense if I tell you there is a place called Hampton
> Wick?
...

Ta to you and Les, me old chinas.

--
Jerry Friedman
Leslie Danks - 01 May 2009 16:03 GMT
[...]

> I don't get the other two.  "Huge hampton"?  Does "hampton" mean
> "penis" or something?

Though I've not come across it before, I assume it's rhyming slang, as in
"Hampton Wick".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampton_Wick>

> And "Sing his things"?

Got me beat--perhaps it's "Singe his things".

Signature

Les (BrE)

Pat Durkin - 01 May 2009 16:48 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Got me beat--perhaps it's "Singe his things".
OK.  Or   "singes things".
Percival P. Cassidy - 01 May 2009 18:57 GMT
>>>>> Is that why we also have a movie called 'private ryan'?
>>
>>>> yes. Also 'Privates on Parade' which has a deliberate double meaning.

>>> ISTR a "Goon Show" episode with a character called "Private Parts."
>> Private Parts; Hugh Jampton; Singhiz Thingz... Milligan and the rest
>> took great pleasure in slipping old Army jokes into the script, secure
>> in the knowledge that the high-ups in the Beeb would never spot them.

> Yet again I'm compelled to doubt censorial cluelessness.  Is there
> really someone who wouldn't spot the pun in "Private Parts"?

That's how the name sounded. Perhaps they wrote it in the script as
"Private Patz."

> I don't get the other two.  "Huge hampton"?  Does "hampton" mean
> "penis" or something?

Rhyming slang: "Hampton" : "Hampton Wick" : "dick" (or "prick").

Perce
Ian Noble - 01 May 2009 19:08 GMT
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:55:52 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Yet again I'm compelled to doubt censorial cluelessness.  Is there
>really someone who wouldn't spot the pun in "Private Parts"?

I suspect that there was a lot of reliance on the people who actually
listened to the show sharing the joke, and a high degree of confidence
that the sort of folk who'd mind weren't likely to listen to the show.

>I don't get the other two.  "Huge hampton"?  Does "hampton" mean
>"penis" or something?
"Hamton Wick". Rhyming slang.

> And "Sing his things"?
Pronounced "Singe".

Cheers - Ian
James Silverton - 30 Apr 2009 16:29 GMT
Derek  wrote  on 30 Apr 2009 10:43:23 GMT:

>> Is that why we also have a movie called 'private ryan'?

>yes. Also 'Privates on Parade' which has a deliberate double meaning.

>Another oldie. See Hamlet II:ii:228-on for an extended double entendre.
>(Apologies, if the form of the reference does not fit everyone's ideas.
>I am not a Shakespeare scholar.)

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Rambler III - 06 May 2009 23:50 GMT
On Apr 30, 6:27 am, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
> On 30 Apr 2009, wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> It's a rank in the army -- private/corporal/sergeant, etc.

Is that why we also have a movie called 'private ryan'?

Most soldiers were "Privates" or PVTs in World War II. Pay: $30.00 per
month. The Pay Grade was E-6.
Derek Turner - 30 Apr 2009 11:30 GMT
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:24:25 -0700, azalea2 wrote:

> What is a private?

The lowest rank in the infantry.
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 30 Apr 2009 14:57 GMT
> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:24:25 -0700, azalea2 wrote:
> > What is a private?
>
> The lowest rank in the infantry.

In the U.S., which is the context of this quotation, it's the two
lowest ranks in the army and the lowest rank in the marines.  The next
rank up in both is "private first class"; I think a news article like
the one quoted could easily refer to a person at that rank as a
private.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_(rank)#United_States

which agrees with what I remember from other sources.

--
Jerry Friedman
James Silverton - 30 Apr 2009 15:18 GMT
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com  wrote  on Thu, 30 Apr 2009 06:57:20 -0700
(PDT):

>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 03:24:25 -0700, azalea2 wrote:
> >> What is a private?
>>
>> The lowest rank in the infantry.

> In the U.S., which is the context of this quotation, it's the
> two lowest ranks in the army and the lowest rank in the
> marines.  The next rank up in both is "private first class"; I
> think a news article like the one quoted could easily refer to
> a person at that rank as a private.

> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_(rank)#United_States

> which agrees with what I remember from other sources.

British custom is a little varied since different branches of the army
use different terms for their lowest ranks. I was once a "Gunner" in the
artillery and I remember my father being a "Sapper" when he was doing
his basic training in the Royal Engineers. The Royal Artillery has its
own array of ranks beyond "Gunner" that are not the same as the rest of
the army. I suppose gunners and sappers could be called "private
soldiers" but I never heard the term used.

Signature

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Derek Turner - 30 Apr 2009 15:37 GMT
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 06:57:20 -0700, jerry_friedman wrote:

> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_(rank)#United_States
>
> which agrees with what I remember from other sources.

In the UK the lowest army rank may be 'gunner' or 'guardsman' depending
on the regiment (probably others too that I can't call to mind). That is
why I specified infantry. Airman, seaman (yet more double entendres)
commando are all equivalent for RAF , RN and RM respectively. I guess
your private first class is our lance-corporal?
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 30 Apr 2009 19:57 GMT
> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 06:57:20 -0700, jerry_friedman wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> In the UK the lowest army rank may be 'gunner' or 'guardsman' depending
> on the regiment (probably others too that I can't call to mind).

Reminds me of Gunner Spike Milligan.

> That is
> why I specified infantry. Airman, seaman (yet more double entendres)
> commando are all equivalent for RAF , RN and RM respectively. I guess
> your private first class is our lance-corporal?

Our Army ranks go Private, Private (2), PFC, Corporal (or Specialist,
for those without responsibility for lower ranks), Sergeant....  The
first "Private" is only for recruits and some prisoners.

Our Marine ranks go Private, PFC, Lance Corporal, Corporal,
Sergeant....

http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/enlisted.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_(rank)#United_States

As you guessed, our Army PFC rank and your Lance-Corporal are
equivalent.  At least, they have the same NATO code, OR-3.  (OR for
"other ranks"?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army#Ranks.2C_specialisms_and_insignia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army#Personnel

--
Jerry Friedman
Garrett Wollman - 30 Apr 2009 21:01 GMT
>Our Army ranks go Private, Private (2), PFC, Corporal (or Specialist,
>for those without responsibility for lower ranks), Sergeant...

...Staff Sergeant, Sergeant First Class, Master Sergeant, Sergeant
Major, Command Sergeant Major.  I'm not sure if Sergeant Major of the
Army is considered a rank above CSM or merely a function which is held
by a person of that rank.  There is only ever one Sergeant Major of
the Army, AIUI.

(My father retired from the Army National Guard as a Sergeant Major a
few years ago, having been in the part-time services since he got home
from Vietnam.  Apparently the pension for an E-9 is pretty good...)

-GAWollman
Signature

Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Skitt - 30 Apr 2009 21:32 GMT
> <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> Our Army ranks go Private, Private (2), PFC, Corporal (or Specialist,
>> for those without responsibility for lower ranks), Sergeant...
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> few years ago, having been in the part-time services since he got home
> from Vietnam.  Apparently the pension for an E-9 is pretty good...)

Here are the US Army enlisted men ranks in order:

Command Sergeant Major of the Army, E10
Command Sergeant Major, E9
Sergeant Major, E9
Master Sergeant, E8 (Command E8 Grade)
First Sergeant, E8
Sergeant First Class, E7
Staff Sergeant, (Command E6 Grade)
Specialist, Sixth Class, E6
Sergeant, (Command E5 Grade)
Specialist, Fifth Class, E5
Corporal, (Command E4 Grade)
Specialist, Fourth Class, E4
Private First Class, E3
Private, E2
Private, E1
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 30 Apr 2009 22:37 GMT
> > <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Our Army ranks go Private, Private (2), PFC, Corporal (or Specialist,
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Private, E2
> Private, E1

The table at

http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/enlisted.html

has only the E4 specialist rank, at the same level as Corporal (and
I'm not seeing the insignia for it).

I think your list may be a former one.  A Wikipedia article has a
note: "SP4 is sometimes encountered in lieu of SPC for Specialist.
This is a holdover from when there were additional specialist ranks at
higher pay grades."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army#Personnel

--
Jerry Friedman
Skitt - 30 Apr 2009 23:03 GMT
>> Here are the US Army enlisted men ranks in order:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Army#Personnel

You are probably right.  I was in the service a long time ago (1956-1959),
and then there were all sorts of Specialists.  I was an SP4, though.  I
wonder what happens to an SP4 when he puts in more years in service -- does
he never get promoted higher than an E4, or is he then no longer a
Specialist?
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Rambler III - 07 May 2009 00:37 GMT
>>> Here are the US Army enlisted men ranks in order:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> does he never get promoted higher than an E4, or is he then no longer a
> Specialist?

Does the U S Army have Spec4s anymore?

Spec8 & 9 discontinued 1965
Spec7 discontinued in 1978
Spec5 & 6 discontinued in 1985

They were probably converted to the equivalent NCO pay grade or retired.

During Viet Nam, some commanders treated SPECs as equal to NCOs of the same
pay grade. Other commanders didn't, and posted Spec7 and below  to KP and
other fatigue duties from the unit duty roster.

The monthly Base Pay of an E-9 is $5705.00

There is no pay grade "E-10". SGTM of the Army and equivalent of other
services and the Senior Advisor to the JCS have a base pay of $6875 a month.
Basis Allowance for Housing (BAH) in Washington, D C, is $2417 and
subsistence allowance is $279. per month. There are other allowances for
uniform.

So for the most senior enlisted members, their monthly pay exceeds $9571 a
month or $115,852 per year.
Skitt - 07 May 2009 00:50 GMT
> Does the U S Army have Spec4s anymore?
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> So for the most senior enlisted members, their monthly pay exceeds
> $9571 a month or $115,852 per year.

As I recall, my final pay (for an SP4 with 2+ years of service) was $150 per
month (in 1958).
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Rambler III - 08 May 2009 19:42 GMT
>> Does the U S Army have Spec4s anymore?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> As I recall, my final pay (for an SP4 with 2+ years of service) was $150
> per month (in 1958).

The base pay for a Spec4 before and after the 1 June 1958 pay raise was
$140.40.

BAQ was $51.30 w/o deps; $77.10 w/1 or 2 deps; $96.90 w/3 or more deps

S/R was not less than $31.50 per mo

As an E-5 with over 10, my base pay was $210.60 before and $255.00 after 1
June 1958. (Plus overseas pay of 10%?. On S/R but no deps.)
Skitt - 08 May 2009 20:05 GMT
>> As I recall, my final pay (for an SP4 with 2+ years of service) was
>> $150 per month (in 1958).
>
> The base pay for a Spec4 before and after the 1 June 1958 pay raise
> was $140.40.

That may be, but there was a raise after two years of service.  I'm fairly
sure about my $150, and I know that there were definitely no cents involved.
I had two years of service in March of 1958, and I got out in March of 1959.
I had no additional pay for anything.

In June of 1958, I left Thule AB, and I finished my 3-year enlistment at
Fort Sill in March of 1959.

> BAQ was $51.30 w/o deps; $77.10 w/1 or 2 deps; $96.90 w/3 or more deps
>
> S/R was not less than $31.50 per mo
>
> As an E-5 with over 10, my base pay was $210.60 before and $255.00
> after 1 June 1958. (Plus overseas pay of 10%?. On S/R but no deps.)
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

tony cooper - 30 Apr 2009 23:11 GMT
>> <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>Private, E2
>Private, E1

I entered the military as an E1, and left it as an E1.  They didn't
bump us six-monthers up to E2.

Based on scores of some test I was given in Basic, I was told I was
qualified to apply for OCS.  Another guy in my Basic group
deliberately answered every question incorrectly in some false hope
that he would be sent home.  He was also told that his test scores
qualified him for OCS.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Skitt - 01 May 2009 00:21 GMT
>> Here are the US Army enlisted men ranks in order:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> that he would be sent home.  He was also told that his test scores
> qualified him for OCS.

What you took was a battery of tests, given to all "new guys".  One of the
tests (GT) was an IQ test.  Its score was also acceptable for Mensa
membership applications.

I had my arm twisted to enter OCS, but I turned that down, as it required a
service time extension.  Later, on the strength of my scores, I was selected
to spend my last nine months in the Army as a Court Martial Assistant,
evaluating charges for their chances of resulting in a successful
prosecution.  The position was being vacated by someone leaving the service.
Those were my most interesting months in the Army, as they had some fringe
benefits (all the company commanders of the Group tried to curry favor with
me).
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

tony cooper - 01 May 2009 03:46 GMT
>> Based on scores of some test I was given in Basic, I was told I was
>> qualified to apply for OCS.  Another guy in my Basic group
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>tests (GT) was an IQ test.  Its score was also acceptable for Mensa
>membership applications.

I really don't remember what the tests were, but I don't think we were
given the actual results.  I think we were just told "Based on your
test scores, you qualify for OCS" or summat.  

>I had my arm twisted to enter OCS, but I turned that down, as it required a
>service time extension.  Later, on the strength of my scores, I was selected
>to spend my last nine months in the Army as a Court Martial Assistant,

I asked for an assignment in the PIO, and did go into the PIO after
Basic.  I attribute this to one of three reasons:  My test scores were
high and they felt I was qualified to be assigned to the PIO.  Or,
they had an opening in the PIO and I was the only one who asked.  Or,
they made a mistake and went against all Army tradition and gave me
what I asked for.  

>evaluating charges for their chances of resulting in a successful
>prosecution.  The position was being vacated by someone leaving the service.
>Those were my most interesting months in the Army, as they had some fringe
>benefits (all the company commanders of the Group tried to curry favor with
>me).

The PIO had many advantages.  They shared office space with the base
radio station and I had access to the control room when it wasn't in
use.  I could sit in there, play records on the turn-table (this was
before CDs or tapes) and read or play gin with a buddy of mine.  I was
assigned a jeep and a photographer and set my own schedule for the
day.  We'd take off in the morning, find some unit in the field, spend
about an hour getting interviews and photos, and hide out the rest of
the day until it was time to return and bang out the article before
going off-duty.  

Shiny brass, shiny boots, and well-pressed uniforms were not expected
of "the press".  Even when interviewing officers, they were more
interested in their name being spelled right than my appearance.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Skitt - 01 May 2009 18:14 GMT
>>> Based on scores of some test I was given in Basic, I was told I was
>>> qualified to apply for OCS.  Another guy in my Basic group
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> given the actual results.  I think we were just told "Based on your
> test scores, you qualify for OCS" or summat.

The scores are listed on Form DA 1811 -- Physical and Mental Status on
Release From Active Service, given me at the release time.  You are right
about not having been told them before that time.  They were available to
your higher-ups, though.

There are eight test scores listed on mine, plus two tests with the entry of
NONE.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Rambler III - 07 May 2009 01:06 GMT
>>>> Based on scores of some test I was given in Basic, I was told I was
>>>> qualified to apply for OCS.  Another guy in my Basic group
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> There are eight test scores listed on mine, plus two tests with the entry
> of NONE.

In the Air Force, test results were always available for view at yearly
records checks. Personal records were not a secret in the Air Force. They
were available for viewing almost upon demand, but permission and
appointment was the right way to go. Sometimes after 1955 this was the only
way an airman could view for review and possible appeal of his performance
report.

Test results were recorded for DA AGO Form 20, "Soldier's Qualification
Card," in the 1940s and 1950s, and in the 1960s on AF Form 7.
tony cooper - 07 May 2009 01:33 GMT
>>>>> Based on scores of some test I was given in Basic, I was told I was
>>>>> qualified to apply for OCS.  Another guy in my Basic group
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>way an airman could view for review and possible appeal of his performance
>report.

That *may* have been true in the Army.  I wouldn't know.  To do so
would require that a soldier would have to bring himself to the
attention of an officer or a senior non-com.  Never a good idea.


Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Rambler III - 08 May 2009 20:26 GMT
>>>>>> Based on scores of some test I was given in Basic, I was told I was
>>>>>> qualified to apply for OCS.  Another guy in my Basic group
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> would require that a soldier would have to bring himself to the
> attention of an officer or a senior non-com.  Never a good idea.

Such officers and NCOs are infrequently found. When they are, they are soon
eliminated.

You've been reading too many novels, or you haven't read the right ones. Try
"Once an Eagle",  Anton Myrer.
tony cooper - 08 May 2009 20:45 GMT
>>>>>>> Based on scores of some test I was given in Basic, I was told I was
>>>>>>> qualified to apply for OCS.  Another guy in my Basic group
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>You've been reading too many novels, or you haven't read the right ones. Try
>"Once an Eagle",  Anton Myrer.

My comment was based on my personal experience in the Army, not on a
novel.  My experience may have been limited, but no good ever came of
any personal contact I had with an officer or a senior non-com.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Rambler III - 09 May 2009 19:01 GMT
[snip]

> My comment was based on my personal experience in the Army, not on a
> novel.  My experience may have been limited, but no good ever came of
> any personal contact I had with an officer or a senior non-com.

You don't realize how easy that is to believe.
Skitt - 09 May 2009 19:21 GMT
> [snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> You don't realize how easy that is to believe.

True enough, but it all changed for me in my last nine months of service,
when I was assigned the duties of Court Martial Assistant for the 1st
Ordnance Group ("Legal Eagle", they called me) and thus held a certain power
over the commanding officers of the component units of the Group.  I, an
SP4, was treated very nicely and with respect by those officers (Second
Louies through Majors).  My actual boss was a civilian lawyer, and it was he
who had the real power, but I was a direct extension of him and had his
complete support.

Thinking of those days still brings a smile to my face.  Good times!
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Rambler III - 07 May 2009 00:51 GMT
>>> Based on scores of some test I was given in Basic, I was told I was
>>> qualified to apply for OCS.  Another guy in my Basic group
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> given the actual results.  I think we were just told "Based on your
> test scores, you qualify for OCS" or summat.

Check your DD214. Test results should be recorded in the last block above
the signatures.
Skitt - 07 May 2009 01:15 GMT
>> "Skitt" wrote:
>>> Tony Cooper wrote:

>>>> Based on scores of some test I was given in Basic, I was told I was
>>>> qualified to apply for OCS.  Another guy in my Basic group
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Check your DD214. Test results should be recorded in the last block
> above the signatures.

Not for me.  There's nothing like that on my Form DD214.  The block you
mention contains my blood group, social security number, a note about my
lump sum payment for accrued leave, and my permanent grade (extension of
item 3a).

The test scores are on Form DA1181, as I mentioned earlier.
This is information from 1959.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Rambler III - 08 May 2009 20:00 GMT
>>> "Skitt" wrote:
>>>> Tony Cooper wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> The test scores are on Form DA1181, as I mentioned earlier.
> This is information from 1959.
The Army must have operated under different SOP.

My 21 April 1957  USAF DD214 (and 21 April 1963 updates) reflects:

Blood Group "O" No time lost
Tech Ap 9
Cler 9
Mech 9
Entitled to $100 MO Pay [with authority]
Paid for 60 days accrued leave
PSSD 4 Jun 1954
RE-3

No SSAN on either. "Service Number" block following my name contained my
AFSN. ETS  Travel Pay, rations and leave computations are entered into a
"rubber stamp" form on the reverse of the DD214s.
Django Cat - 02 May 2009 14:28 GMT
> > On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 06:57:20 -0700, jerry_friedman wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Reminds me of Gunner Spike Milligan.

Two feet away on the shelf is "'Rommel?' 'Gunner Who?' (A Confrontation
in the Desert)"

DC
--
Alan Jones - 30 Apr 2009 20:13 GMT
> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 06:57:20 -0700, jerry_friedman wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> double entendres) commando are all equivalent for RAF , RN and RM
> respectively. I guess your private first class is our lance-corporal?

The lowest RAF rank is Aircraftman [-woman] (NB no s, though one is often
introduced). There are, or were, two levels of aircraftman - AC1 and AC2.
AC2 was the rank of the rawest recruit. Then there are/were Leading and
Senior Aircraftmen (LAC, SAC) who seem to have been RAF versions of
lance-corporal, before one got to Corporal.

My recollection of this stuff needed a little brushing-up, since it ceased
to matter for me in 1958.

Alan Jones
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 30 Apr 2009 22:21 GMT
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 06:57:20 -0700, jerry_friedman wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>My recollection of this stuff needed a little brushing-up, since it ceased
>to matter for me in 1958.

I seem to recall that AC2 was pretty much a training rank. According to
Wikipedia there is now a single AC rank, and it is a training rank only.

When I was in the RAF Junior Technician was roughly equivalent to a
Lance Corporal. At that time the badge for a Jnr Tech was a single
stripe (chevron). It is different now.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/noncommissioned.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraftman

That article has a table comparing the Other Ranks in the British
forces: Navy, Marines, Army and Air Force.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

MC - 30 Apr 2009 15:52 GMT
*Why* is a private a private?

Signature

Watch out for the random hedgehogs

Derek Turner - 30 Apr 2009 16:06 GMT
> *Why* is a private a private?

Short for private soldier, as in private citizen: having no public or
official position or rank.

IOW private first class is a contradiction in terms. But what do you
expect from the US military, especially when it comes to mangling English.
MC - 30 Apr 2009 16:20 GMT
> IOW private first class is a contradiction in terms. But what do you
> expect from the US military, especially when it comes to mangling English.

I would expect them to punctuate a question with a question mark for
starters!

Signature

Watch out for the random hedgehogs

Derek Turner - 30 Apr 2009 16:26 GMT
> But what do you
>> expect from the US military, especially when it comes to mangling
>> English.
>
> I would expect them to punctuate a question with a question mark for
> starters!

Even a rhetorical one that was more of a statement? But yes, touche :)

I was thinking of such terms as 'collateral damage' (killing civilians)
and 'extraordinary rendition' (outsourcing torture).
Evan Kirshenbaum - 30 Apr 2009 17:35 GMT
> I was thinking of such terms as 'collateral damage' (killing
> civilians)

Is there any evidence that the US military has ever used "collateral
damage" to *mean* killing civilians, as opposed to counting unintended
civilian deaths, among other things, as part of an established class
of collateral damage?

As a legal phrase, it goes back at least to the eighteenth century:

   The Husband sole shall have an Action for Words spoken against his
   Wife; and if the Wife be join'd with him, Judgment shall be
   arrested. _Sid. 346.  But they must be such Words which are only
   actionable in respect of collateral Damages.

                       _Baron and Feme: A Treatise of Law and Equity
                       Concerning Husbands and Wives_, 1738

It first shows up in the singular in 1820.  As near as I can tell, the
notion is something like: if I steal your horse, that's a crime, but
if because of that you can't plow your field and so lose your crop,
that's collateral damage.

The military appears to have picked up the term in the '60s,
specifically with regard to nuclear war.  In 1975, I see it defined as
"unintended destruction which should be minimized or avoided if
possible".  As near as I can tell, it's always included not only
civilian deaths, but also deaths to livestock, destruction of
property, and disruption of civilian infrastructure.

Indeed, one of the points of the neutron bomb was that by killing
people and leaving (more) structures intact, it would *reduce*
collateral damage.

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 30 Apr 2009 17:50 GMT
>> I was thinking of such terms as 'collateral damage' (killing
>> civilians)
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>if because of that you can't plow your field and so lose your crop,
>that's collateral damage.

I think that the capitalised plural "Damages" refers to:

   Law. (Now always in pl.) The value, estimated in money, of something
   lost or withheld; the sum of money claimed or adjudged to be paid in
   compensation for loss or injury sustained. {OED}

Example from:
http://www.law-essays-uk.com/freeessays/the-doctrine.php
   ....
   The perception of compensation has a dual function: the satisfaction
   of obtaining justice against a defendant and the plaintiff being
   compensated to the value of their loss. Nonetheless, debate
   currently surrounds the issue of deducting collateral damages that
   might already have been paid to the plaintiff, the intention being
   that the plaintiff should be left in the position they were in
   before the liability occurred...

"Collateral Damages" may be the same as "Collateral Benefits":
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.justice.gov.uk/docs/cp0907.pdf

   Chapter 4 - Collateral benefits
   98.
   This chapter considers the situation where a claimant is potentially
   entitled to receive both damages and some form of ‘collateral
   benefit’. A collateral benefit is a payment or benefit in kind
   (other than the tort damages being claimed) which the tort victim
   would not have received but for the tort. This can include sick pay;
   accident insurance; disability pensions; voluntary and charitable
   payments;...

   ...Lord Reid made the following statement of principle about
   collateral benefits:
   100.Two questions can arise. First, what did the Plaintiff lose as a
   result of the accident? What are the sums which he would have
   received but for the accident but by reason of the accident he can
   no longer get? And secondly, what are the sums which he did in fact
   receive as a result of the accident but which he would not have
   received if there had been no accident? And then the question arises
   whether the latter sums must be deducted from the former in the
   assessment of damage…The common law has treated this matter as one
   depending on justice, reasonableness and public policy.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Evan Kirshenbaum - 30 Apr 2009 16:16 GMT
> *Why* is a private a private?

I believe that the notion is that a private solidier (the earlier
term) is an individual temporarily *in* the army, but not *of* the
army.  He's responsible only for himself, as opposed to a corporal,
who's responsible for a "body" of troops.

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Don Phillipson - 30 Apr 2009 17:03 GMT
> I believe that the notion is that a private solidier (the earlier
> term) is an individual temporarily *in* the army, but not *of* the
> army.  He's responsible only for himself, as opposed to a corporal,
> who's responsible for a "body" of troops.

This is unlikely (cf. long enlistments in the pre-Victorian period,
"reformed" about 1870 by a minimum enlistment for seven years.)
The root meaning seems to be that the private soldier
held no command rank (corporal, sergeant, etc.) and had
no trade (farrier, gunner etc.) or special training (like troopers,
sappers, signalmen, etc.)

Signature

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Mike Mooney - 01 May 2009 10:53 GMT
> The root meaning seems to be that the private soldier
> held no command rank (corporal, sergeant, etc.) and had
> no trade (farrier, gunner etc.) or special training (like troopers,
> sappers, signalmen, etc.)

a.k.a. "cannon fodder".

Mike M
Steve Hayes - 30 Apr 2009 19:04 GMT
>*Why* is a private a private?

Ex-directory.

You don't find them in the Army List.

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Nick Spalding - 30 Apr 2009 21:07 GMT
Steve Hayes wrote, in <meqjv45qc4hddus1mfgfl2t63tk5667rc1@4ax.com>
on Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:12:11 +0200:

> >*Why* is a private a private?
>
> Ex-directory.
>
> You don't find them in the Army List.

I like it.
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Alan Jones - 01 May 2009 08:43 GMT
> Steve Hayes wrote, in <meqjv45qc4hddus1mfgfl2t63tk5667rc1@4ax.com>
> on Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:12:11 +0200:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I like it.

Alas for the joke - all British soldiers, of whatever rank, are ex-directory
in Steve's sense. The Army List was "classified" at the outbreak of war in
1939 and has never since been available to the public.

Alan Jones
Raymond O'Hara - 30 Apr 2009 17:51 GMT
What is a private?

By EBEN HARRELL Eben Harrell – Tue Apr 28, 5:40 am ET
In February 1976, an outbreak of swine flu struck Fort Dix Army base
in New Jersey, killing a 19-year-old private and infecting hundreds of
soldiers.

It is the lowest rank in an army.
Rambler III - 06 May 2009 23:47 GMT
What is a private?

By EBEN HARRELL Eben Harrell – Tue Apr 28, 5:40 am ET
In February 1976, an outbreak of swine flu struck Fort Dix Army base
in New Jersey, killing a 19-year-old private and infecting hundreds of
soldiers.

From
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090428/hl_time/08599189412900;_ylt=Aoa0RSHRwDWI.N
fWM8T0o752wPIE;_ylu=X3oDMTJqNmtlbTg3BGFzc2V0A3RpbWUvMjAwOTA0MjgvMDg1OTkxODk0MTI5
MDAEY3BvcwMxBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDaG93dG9kZWFsd2l0


The lowest enlisted grade in the U S Army and U S Marines. Pay Grade E-1.
Basic pay: Less than 4 months service - $1245.00 per month. More than 4
months service$1347.00 per month
 
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