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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009machete
The OED shows that aside from referring to a knife, machete also can mean "A small chiefly four-stringed form of guitar played in Portugal, Madeira, etc., which is the forerunner of the ukulele." The root word in Spanish is "macho," "large hammer." I don't understand how the word came to be applied to a musical instrument. Any theories? >The OED shows that aside from referring to a knife, machete also can >mean "A small chiefly four-stringed form of guitar played in Portugal, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I don't understand how the word came to be applied to a musical >instrument. Any theories? No theories but an analogical usage: a guitar is often called an "axe" in English.  SignatureJames >>The OED shows that aside from referring to a knife, machete also can >>mean "A small chiefly four-stringed form of guitar played in Portugal, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >No theories but an analogical usage: a guitar is often called an >"axe" in English. According to OED "machete" means a small hammer. One of the quotes for the musical instrument is: 1850 J. A. DIX Winter in Madeira & Summer in Spain & Florence (1851) iv. 72 Among the instruments which bear a prominent part in concerts and serenades, is the machete. It is an invention of the island... In its form it is a dwarf guitar, the body perhaps eight inches long,... Here is an image of one, shaped like a fish: http://www.fromoldbooks.org/IllustratedLondonNews-Vol56/pages/377-Machete/ This is triggering memories of a recent discussion in AUE about the use of the name of a musical instrument for a slicing implement in a kitchen: a mandolin. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > The OED shows that aside from referring to a knife, machete also can > mean "A small chiefly four-stringed form of guitar played in Portugal, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I don't understand how the word came to be applied to a musical > instrument. Any theories? The OED says that the knife came from Spanish "machete" and probably ultimately from Spanish "macho", which the DRAE notes as originally specifically blacksmith's hammer, but for the instrument sense, they simply say "after Portuguese _machete_", and it's not clear that those came from the same source. The DRAE agrees with the derivation from that sense of "macho", which comes from Latin, "marculus", a small hammer, but they don't seem to have a musical instrument sense. It started out as a weapon (single bladed, broad, heavy, shorter than a sword) and then was extended to the knife we typically think of. There are some regional senses. It's a cheat sheat in Argentina and Colombia. It's a machine used in cigar manufacture in Cuba. It's a "job" in Nicaragua. It's a stingy person in Uruguay. It's a good thing in Venezuela. But no musical senses. Looking at Google Books, I first see the word in the guitar sense in English/Portuguese dictionaries, where it's defined as a great knife formerly worn by peasants at their girdle; also a short sword, matchet, Also a little guitar [1827] so it seems to have the same beginning as in Spanish. It starts showing up in English texts in the 1840s, but I don't see any discussion of why it would have that name. Nobody seems to have thought it strange that it would have the same name as the much- longer-established knife. If I had to hazard a guess, being small, it was the "machete" to the guitar's "espada" (sword). (At which point it would be great to be able to say that I found "guitar" as one of the senses of "espada" in one of the dictionaries, but no such luck.) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Specifically, I'd like to debate 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |whether cannibalism ought to be Palo Alto, CA 94304 |grounds for leniency in murder, |since it's less wasteful. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > The OED shows that aside from referring to a knife, machete also can > > mean "A small chiefly four-stringed form of guitar played in Portugal, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > a great knife formerly worn by peasants at their girdle; also a > short sword, matchet, Also a little guitar [1827] Kewl! An English word for "machete"! > so it seems to have the same beginning as in Spanish. > > It starts showing up in English texts in the 1840s, but I don't see > any discussion of why it would have that name. Nobody seems to have > thought it strange that it would have the same name as the much- > longer-established knife. >>> The OED shows that aside from referring to a knife, machete also can >>> mean "A small chiefly four-stringed form of guitar played in [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Kewl! An English word for "machete"! Yes. It was not uncommon version once, still in use (I think) in West Africa and the West Indies. Elsewhere, the version with "-e" is now the only one AFAIK. [...] John. > > > The OED shows that aside from referring to a knife, machete also can > > > mean "A small chiefly four-stringed form of guitar played in Portugal, [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Kewl! An English word for "machete"! Actually, the real English word for machete is billhook. >Actually, the real English word for machete is billhook. A billhook has a hooked end. A machete does not: Billhook: http://www.answers.com/topic/billhook and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billhook Machete: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machete SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On May 1, 5:14 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >Actually, the real English word for machete is billhook. > > A billhook has a hooked end. A machete does not: A billhook is a variant of the European implement called vesuri in Finnish, which is very much like a machete and used for similar needs. yeah!agree!? <craoibhin66@gmail.com> ??????:83f434da-dce7-41ea-ba72-14d607808907@f1g2000prb.googlegroups.com... On May 1, 5:14 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >Actually, the real English word for machete is billhook. > > A billhook has a hooked end. A machete does not: A billhook is a variant of the European implement called vesuri in Finnish, which is very much like a machete and used for similar needs. On May 1, 12:30 pm, craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote: > On May 1, 5:14 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > A billhook is a variant of the European implement called vesuri in > Finnish, which is very much like a machete and used for similar needs. If a vesuri has a hooked end, then it is not like a machete. If a vesuri is very much like a machete, then it is not like a billhook. > On May 1, 12:30 pm, craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If a vesuri is very much like a machete, then it is not like a > billhook. It has a hooked end, but it is not a hook. http://www.nappula.com/sivusto/galleriakuvat/vesurifinalrender.jpg On May 2, 6:31 am, craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote: > > On May 1, 12:30 pm, craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > http://www.nappula.com/sivusto/galleriakuvat/vesurifinalrender.jpg- If it has a hooked end, then it is not like a machete. Peter wrote on Fri, 01 May 2009 15:14:41 +0100: >> Actually, the real English word for machete is billhook. > A billhook has a hooked end. A machete does not: > Billhook: > http://www.answers.com/topic/billhook > and > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billhook > Machete: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machete That's my impression too about the shape of a machete. Mine is about 2 feet long. They are very cheap to buy (at Army Surplus stores) and are useful if you need to clean out brush-wood. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not On May 1, 1:34 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: > Peter wrote on Fri, 01 May 2009 15:14:41 +0100: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > feet long. They are very cheap to buy (at Army Surplus stores) and are > useful if you need to clean out brush-wood. Or Tutsis. > On May 1, 1:34 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Or Tutsis. No, those are pangas. (The same thing of course, but I've never the term "machete" used for them in East Africa.) J. > > On May 1, 1:34 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > No, those are pangas. (The same thing of course, but I've never the term > "machete" used for them in East Africa.) It's in every news and history account: they slaughtered them with machetes. If the more authentic word had been used in "Hotel Rwanda," it would have entered the culture. >>> On May 1, 1:34 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> >>> wrote: >>>> Peter wrote on Fri, 01 May 2009 15:14:41 +0100: [...] >>>>> Machete: >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machete [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > machetes. If the more authentic word had been used in "Hotel Rwanda," > it would have entered the culture. Agreed. They always called them "machetes" in the media here too in reports on the genicide; that's the local name for the tool here in Oz, just as it is in the USA. I haven't seen "Hotel Rwanda", but in a film made for Western (especially USA) audiences, you'd hardly expect the charactors to use genuine East African English, except, no doubt, for a few words like "jambo" or "safari" that they might expect the audience to be familiar with. Correct me if I'm wrong. J. > >>> On May 1, 1:34 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> > >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > that they might expect the audience to be familiar with. Correct me if I'm > wrong. That was generations ago, bwana. Nowadays we can have movies with long stretches of dialog in actual other languages! (Not to mention The Passion of the Christ and Apocalypto -- and Fr. Fulco is now working on a script, that may or may not get made, for Vin Diesel about Hannibal, in Punic.) >>>>> On May 1, 1:34 pm, "James Silverton" >>>>> <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > That was generations ago, bwana. Nowadays we can have movies with long > stretches of dialog in actual other languages! Or for that matter, movies with no English at all ("Ten Canoes", "The Long Runner"). I suspect that if this policy was strictly followed in "Hotel Rwanda", there wouldn't have been any English either, only Rwandan and French (and possibly some Swahili). In any case, though, there would have been English subtitles, no? Do Swahili speakers ever use "bwana" these days when addressing wazungu? My impression is that it's obsolete, except possibly as a sort of joke to tourists on commercial "safari" tours, since it rather stinks of colonialism. I can only remember being addressed as "mzee" (old man). J. > >>>>> On May 1, 1:34 pm, "James Silverton" > >>>>> <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Or for that matter, movies with no English at all ("Ten Canoes", "The Long > Runner"). Haven't heard of those. > I suspect that if this policy was strictly followed in "Hotel > Rwanda", there wouldn't have been any English either, only Rwandan and > French (and possibly some Swahili). > > In any case, though, there would have been English subtitles, no? Sometimes. Depends on whether the p.o.v. character is able to understand the language or not, sometimes. > Do Swahili speakers ever use "bwana" these days when addressing wazungu? My > impression is that it's obsolete, except possibly as a sort of joke to > tourists on commercial "safari" tours, since it rather stinks of > colonialism. I can only remember being addressed as "mzee" (old man). That's why I used it as an example of movie Swahili. (Like Indians saying "Ugh.") In the first scene of a 1943 Tarzan movie (which I just watched this morning), Tarzan actually says "Ungawa" to the baby elephant (whom Boy seems to call Buddy). >> Do Swahili speakers ever use "bwana" these days when addressing wazungu? My >> impression is that it's obsolete, except possibly as a sort of joke to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >That's why I used it as an example of movie Swahili. (Like Indians >saying "Ugh.") Whenever I think of bad dialog in a movie set in Africa I think of "King Solomon's Mines" (1950) with Stewart Granger. Even at 12 years-old, I was laughing at Granger's lame attempts. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >Or for that matter, movies with no English at all ("Ten Canoes", "The Long >Runner"). I suspect that if this policy was strictly followed in "Hotel >Rwanda", there wouldn't have been any English either, only Rwandan and >French (and possibly some Swahili). One of my all-time favorite movies is "Naked Prey" (1966) with Cornel Wilde. There was almost no dialog at all, and none in English that I remember. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > > > On May 1, 1:34 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> > > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > machetes. If the more authentic word had been used in "Hotel Rwanda," > it would have entered the culture. I don't know about what you mean by "entering the culture", but "panga" is commonly used in English-language depictions of African life. Another thing is that "machete" is so well-known to Americans and so similar to a "panga" that news editors preferred not to use the latter word. And it is quite probable that the word "panga" was sinmply edited out of the American releases of books abot the Rwanda genocide. About "vesuri": the name comes from "vesa" = sprout, shoot, scion, and the idea is that you use it for cleaning out what we call "vesaikko" (thicket of tree-sprouts), a collective noun derived from "vesa". Herbicides used to be called "vesaikkomyrkky" (myrkky = poison) in Finnish, i.e. anti-vesaikko agents. Nowadays they are more commonly called "kasvinsuojeluaine" ("plant-protecting substance"). On May 2, 6:43 am, craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On May 1, 1:34 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> > > > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > "panga" is commonly used in English-language depictions of African > life. Where?? and what do you mean by "depictions"? > Another thing is that "machete" is so well-known to Americans > and so similar to a "panga" that news editors preferred not to use the > latter word. And it is quite probable that the word "panga" was > sinmply edited out of the American releases of books abot the Rwanda > genocide. Where have I mentioned "books"? > About "vesuri": the name comes from "vesa" = sprout, shoot, scion, and > the idea is that you use it for cleaning out what we call > "vesaikko" (thicket of tree-sprouts), a collective noun derived from > "vesa". Herbicides used to be called "vesaikkomyrkky" (myrkky = > poison) in Finnish, i.e. anti-vesaikko agents. Nowadays they are more > commonly called "kasvinsuojeluaine" ("plant-protecting substance").- It may have a _function_ like one of those of a machete, but it is not a machete. > On May 1, 1:34 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Or Tutsis. Tutsis of Maryland? :-) > > On May 1, 1:34 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Tutsis of Maryland? :-)- I don't get it ... grammatim wrote on Sat, 2 May 2009 04:35:51 -0700 (PDT): > >> On May 1, 1:34 pm, "James Silverton" > >> <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> >> Tutsis of Maryland? :-)- >I don't get it You probably *have* gotten it from previous posts today. Many people in different countries have large multi-purpose knives that can also be used as weapons. The Kukri of Nepal is another example, even if it would not be described as a machete. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not On May 2, 8:10 am, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: > grammatim wrote on Sat, 2 May 2009 04:35:51 -0700 (PDT): > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > James Silverton > Potomac, Maryland Oh, I see, he was saying that because you're from Maryland, it was incongruous to suggest that _you_ would use a machete to clean out Tutsis. But if you were a Hutu in Rwanda, you may well have done. Note that I delete .sigs from replies, so the "Maryland" was not visible at the time. grammatim wrote on Sat, 2 May 2009 07:32:59 -0700 (PDT): > On May 2, 8:10 am, "James Silverton" > <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> James Silverton >> Potomac, Maryland > Oh, I see, he was saying that because you're from Maryland, it > was incongruous to suggest that _you_ would use a machete to > clean out Tutsis. But if you were a Hutu in Rwanda, you may > well have done. Just a passing remark but my sig is visible with the quoted portion of your post. It should appear in this post with double quotes >> SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not On May 2, 10:57 am, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: > grammatim wrote on Sat, 2 May 2009 07:32:59 -0700 (PDT): > > On May 2, 8:10 am, "James Silverton" [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >> James Silverton > >> Potomac, Maryland > > Oh, I see, he was saying that because you're from Maryland, it > > was incongruous to suggest that _you_ would use a machete to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Just a passing remark but my sig is visible with the quoted portion of > your post. It should appear in this post with double quotes >> That's because _this_ time, I did not delete it, so that people could see what I was talking about! Sheesh. If you go all the way back to Paul's posting, you will see that there is no Maryland there to see. Evan wrote on Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:56:01 -0700: >> The OED shows that aside from referring to a knife, machete >> also can mean "A small chiefly four-stringed form of guitar [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> I don't understand how the word came to be applied to a >> musical instrument. Any theories? > The OED says that the knife came from Spanish "machete" and > probably ultimately from Spanish "macho", which the DRAE notes > as originally specifically blacksmith's hammer, but for the > instrument sense, they simply say "after Portuguese > _machete_", and it's not clear that those came from the same > source. > The DRAE agrees with the derivation from that sense of > "macho", which comes from Latin, "marculus", a small hammer, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > stingy person in Uruguay. It's a good thing in Venezuela. > But no musical senses. My Spanish is meager but my Random House Spanish Dictionary translates "macho" as the noun "male". How is that connected to "hammer"? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not On Apr 30, 1:34 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: > Evan wrote on Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:56:01 -0700: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > - Show quoted text - THe OED states [< Spanish machete (1550), probably < macho large hammer (probably variant of mazo, cognate with MACE [...] >> My Spanish is meager but my Random House Spanish Dictionary >> translates "macho" as the noun "male". How is that connected to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > [< Spanish machete (1550), probably < macho large hammer (probably > variant of mazo, cognate with MACE Whereas <macho> is from Latin <masculus>, diminutive of <mas, maris>. No connection at all. There is also another <macho> in Spanish, which denotes a sort of big mazo (mallet) for forging iron. It's probably cognate of course. OTOH, <macho> meaning mule is different again. From Latin <mulus>, via Portuguese. John. > My Spanish is meager but my Random House Spanish Dictionary translates > "macho" as the noun "male". How is that connected to "hammer"? The DRAE has two entries, one ("male") derived from Latin "masculus" (with a macron over the first "u") and the other ("blacksmith's hammer") derived from Latin "marculus" (also with a macron over the first "u"). I had thought that perhaps English had the same sort of thing with "male" and "mallet", but unfortunately, while "male" comes from "masculus", "mallet" comes, ultimately from Latin "malleus". The OED does show a "martel" (war hammer) that appears to be related to "marculus", but they note it as "now historical". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Code should be designed to make it 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |easy to get it right, not to work Palo Alto, CA 94304 |if you get it right. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > The OED shows that aside from referring to a knife, machete also can > > mean "A small chiefly four-stringed form of guitar played in Portugal, [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > able to say that I found "guitar" as one of the senses of "espada" in > one of the dictionaries, but no such luck.) There is also the culinary mandolin. Mike M In article <87c2357b-e2c6-441a-933e- 581ca01d4dbd@d39g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, mikmooney@googlemail.com says... > > If I had to hazard a guess, being small, it was the "machete" to the > > guitar's "espada" (sword). (At which point it would be great to be > > able to say that I found "guitar" as one of the senses of "espada" in > > one of the dictionaries, but no such luck.) > > There is also the culinary mandolin. Is that what John Peel played on Top of the Pops? SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >In article <87c2357b-e2c6-441a-933e- >581ca01d4dbd@d39g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, mikmooney@googlemail.com [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Is that what John Peel played on Top of the Pops? D'ye ken Top Gear? SignatureJames > In article <87c2357b-e2c6-441a-933e- > 581ca01d4dbd@d39g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, mikmooney@googlemail.com [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is that what John Peel played on Top of the Pops? For some values of "played". We didn't hear him playing the mandolin since he didn't - he was just miming. SignatureDavid > > In article <87c2357b-e2c6-441a-933e- > > 581ca01d4...@d39g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, mikmoo...@googlemail.com [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > For some values of "played". We didn't hear him playing the mandolin > since he didn't - he was just miming. And miming very badly, too. Still one of my favourite TOTP clips though, footballs and all. Mike M Amethyst wrote on Fri, 1 May 2009 15:25:04 +0100: > In article <87c2357b-e2c6-441a-933e- > 581ca01d4dbd@d39g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, > mikmooney@googlemail.com says... > >> If I had to hazard a guess, being small, it was the > >> "machete" to the guitar's "espada" (sword). (At which [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >> >> There is also the culinary mandolin. > Is that what John Peel played on Top of the Pops? I thought that you, being from the North of England, would ken that John Peel played the horn. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Amethyst wrote on Fri, 1 May 2009 15:25:04 +0100: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >I thought that you, being from the North of England, would ken that John >Peel played the horn. Ah, I'm not /from/ the north, I just live here. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary Is it possible that Lat musca (fly; Serb. muha, mušica; Russ. муха, мшица/mshica, мошка/moška; Cz. moucha) is somehow related to Lat. mas, maris (man; Serb. muž, muško, Russ. мужчина/muzhchina, Mac. maž; Cz. muž)? Maybe all this words including macheta (Serb. mač, Rus. меč; Cz. meč 'sword'; Gr. μάχαιρα 'a large knife') and muscle (Serb. mišić, miška, Pol. mięsień; Russ. мъшьца Gr. μυ̂ς) are related to thr potential power of movement? It seems that we should start from the words like English make (OE macian; MHG machen 'to bring about'), Greek μηχανή (machine for lifting weights and the like; ie. to move something around) and Serbian maknuti (move, move away; Russ. пере-мещать). For instance, Serbian word maknuti is appearing in a lot of different forms: micati (move), na-meštati (to place; hence mesto 'place'; Cz. místo; Russ. место; Pol. miejsce; OSl мѣсто), pre-meštati (move around; Russ. перемена места), mahati (wave; Russ. махание; Cz. mávat, mávnutí; Pol. machać). Also we should make clear if English motion is related to the word make and to Serbian maknuti, micati, motati (all with the meaning 'move around'). One thing is very interesting here: the Serbo-Slavic word muha (fly; OSl моуха) seems to be derived from the verb maknuti (move) or mahati (wave). In Serbian muha (fly) is also known as muva (fly), where the sound [h] is replaced with [v]. Similar situation can be seen in English words motion and move (both probably derived from Lat. moto - are 'move about'). In Serbian, the reflexive verbs "motati se" and "muvati se" also have the same meaning (to move about, move around aimlessly) and both could be compared to Latin moto -are and moveo - ere. If someone is mighty (Serb. moćan; Russ. мощный; Cz. mocný, mohutný) that one is able to 'move' the things around; ie. that one is able to "make" something what the majority of others cannot... Did anyone understand anything of what I said above? :-) What machete and mač have to do with Greek μάχη (fight, combat)? |
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