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Do my research: rescue of innocents

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Lars Eighner - 02 May 2009 06:32 GMT
The rescue of innocents/innocence appears to be an old theme in literature,
and Google shows a volume that deals with this theme in Medieval literature.

In modern literature, this theme provides the title image of *The* *Catcher*
*in* *the* *Rye*.  The threat is often more or less vaguely sexual, and it
is somewhat less vague in Holden's reaction to the common urban graffito
"f.ck you."

In my only and comic novel "Pawn to Queen Four," the character McThacry
obsessed with his delusion of an international pedophile ring.  This
character was a sketch of an actual person --- to accurate for its own good,
because the book could not be published until the actual person died and
reassured my publisher that there would be no question of libel.

Do my research for me, and suggest other recent works with this theme or
motif especially where rescue of innocents is coupled with mental
disturbance and/or hypocrisy.

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tony cooper - 02 May 2009 06:48 GMT
>This
>character was a sketch of an actual person --- to accurate for its own good,
>because the book could not be published until the actual person died and
>reassured my publisher that there would be no question of libel.

Quite a trick:  dying and reassuring your publisher.  It seems the
sequence is wrong, but maybe he had special powers.

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Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

R H Draney - 02 May 2009 08:36 GMT
tony cooper filted:

>>This
>>character was a sketch of an actual person --- to accurate for its own good,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Quite a trick:  dying and reassuring your publisher.  It seems the
>sequence is wrong, but maybe he had special powers.

An unconventional clause to include in one's will, to be sure....r

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CDB - 02 May 2009 14:56 GMT
>> This
>> character was a sketch of an actual person --- to accurate for its
>> own good, because the book could not be published until the actual
>> person died and reassured my publisher that there would be no
>> question of libel.

> Quite a trick:  dying and reassuring your publisher.  It seems the
> sequence is wrong, but maybe he had special powers.

Fluent body language.

I recently read a book called _The Dog by the Cradle, the Serpent
Beneath_, by Erica Ritter, a Toronto journalist and writer.  She
examines the human--other-animal relationship in the light of the
"universal" story of the dog (usually) who protects an infant in his
care and is poorly rewarded for it, the one I knew as a child from the
poem "Beth Gelert".  That kind of thing?

Erika:
http://www.quillandquire.com/reviews/review.cfm?review_id=6402

Beth:
http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiWLFHUND2.html

Hm.  Fine old poem not quite as fine as I remembered it.
John Varela - 03 May 2009 01:47 GMT
> I recently read a book called _The Dog by the Cradle, the Serpent
> Beneath_, by Erica Ritter, a Toronto journalist and writer.  She
> examines the human--other-animal relationship in the light of the
> "universal" story of the dog (usually) who protects an infant in his
> care and is poorly rewarded for it, the one I knew as a child from the
> poem "Beth Gelert".  That kind of thing?

http://web.me.com/john.varela/temp/19780307%2006%20Leblon.jpg

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CDB - 04 May 2009 13:47 GMT
>> ["Beth Gelert"]

> http://web.me.com/john.varela/temp/19780307%2006%20Leblon.jpg

Nicely discovered.  Is there a story?  I suppose not "protecção" as in
"cane corso insurance".
John Varela - 04 May 2009 18:35 GMT
> >> ["Beth Gelert"]
>
> > http://web.me.com/john.varela/temp/19780307%2006%20Leblon.jpg
>
> Nicely discovered.  Is there a story?  I suppose not "protecção" as in
> "cane corso insurance".

I saw the statue a long time ago (7 March 1978, to be exact, as
noted in the photo title) and liked it, so I took the picture.  It's
in Leblon, an oceanfront suburb of Rio (I used to get some
interesting business travel).  The dog is missing his right foreleg.
 

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CDB - 04 May 2009 19:49 GMT
>>>> ["Beth Gelert"]

>>> http://web.me.com/john.varela/temp/19780307%2006%20Leblon.jpg

>> Nicely discovered.  Is there a story?  I suppose not "protecção"
>> as in "cane corso insurance".

> I saw the statue a long time ago (7 March 1978, to be exact, as
> noted in the photo title) and liked it, so I took the picture.  It's
> in Leblon, an oceanfront suburb of Rio (I used to get some
> interesting business travel).  The dog is missing his right foreleg.

Anklebiters, eh?
Evan Kirshenbaum - 02 May 2009 15:16 GMT
>>This character was a sketch of an actual person --- to accurate for
>>its own good, because the book could not be published until the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Quite a trick:  dying and reassuring your publisher.  It seems the
> sequence is wrong, but maybe he had special powers.

Interestingly, had he written it as

   until the actual person died and, by dying, reassured my publisher
   that there would be no question of libel.

that reading doesn't seem strange to me at all.

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John Holmes - 04 May 2009 06:53 GMT
>>> This character was a sketch of an actual person --- to accurate for
>>> its own good, because the book could not be published until the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> that reading doesn't seem strange to me at all.

A simple "...died, reassuring my publisher that there would be no
question of libel" would work too.

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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 04 May 2009 15:42 GMT
> >>> This character was a sketch of an actual person --- to accurate for
> >>> its own good, because the book could not be published until the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> A simple "...died, reassuring my publisher that there would be no
> question of libel" would work too.

The way Lars wrote it worked for me.

--
Jerry Friedman
Lars Eighner - 04 May 2009 16:25 GMT
In our last episode,
<02d80680-e555-4e60-bce8-854a95665a7a@x6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
broadcast on alt.usage.english:

>> >>> This character was a sketch of an actual person --- to accurate for
>> >>> its own good, because the book could not be published until the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>> A simple "...died, reassuring my publisher that there would be no
>> question of libel" would work too.

> The way Lars wrote it worked for me.

Except for the 'to.'  I have always done careless stuff like that, but I
think the internets is making it worse.  Something like that would leap out
at me from a typescript---perhaps too late, which is why I never read the
carbons of MSS that were out.  I could confuse 'chose' and 'choose' when I
typed, but before the internets I would never confuse 'lose' and 'loose.'
Often I would forget to conjugate when I typed, but I did not write 'you'
for 'your.' Then.

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Pat Durkin - 02 May 2009 16:36 GMT
> The rescue of innocents/innocence appears to be an old theme in
> literature,
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> motif especially where rescue of innocents is coupled with mental
> disturbance and/or hypocrisy.

I can't recall the novel.  I think it was an early or mid-20th C one
(about events in the 19th C,that mentioned the "Fool-Killer", a
frightening lumberjack kind of person who carried a huge axe.  Kind of a
Paul Bunyan figure, but with disciplinary overtones.
(But where you see the rescue of innocents, I see the imperiling of
them.  A bogeyman kind of thing.  Was it Tom or Huck in the cave with
Indian Joe?)
Still, an entire series begun by V.C. Andrews, about "Flowers in the
Attic", might fit.  But that is about children imprisoned for years by
their "loved ones".  No, they don't turn into the pitiable "wolf"
children (Mowgli syndrome).
Marius.Hancu@gmail.com - 04 May 2009 16:19 GMT
> Do my research for me, and suggest other recent works with this theme or
> motif especially where rescue of innocents is coupled with mental
> disturbance and/or hypocrisy.

Not sure if these help:

http://books.google.com/books?q=%22rescue+of+innocents%22&lr=&sa=N&start=0

Marius Hancu
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 04 May 2009 16:43 GMT
> The rescue of innocents/innocence appears to be an old theme in literature,
> and Google shows a volume that deals with this theme in Medieval literature.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> motif especially where rescue of innocents is coupled with mental
> disturbance and/or hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy of the holier-than-thou kind, or deliberate posing as a
victim?  /The Maltese Falcon/ starts with an innocent-appearing woman
hiring Spade and Archer to follow the man who has run off with her
sister.  There must be many other examples in crime and spy fiction.
The "Spanish Prisoner" con is based on this, I believe.  Not to spoil
anything that wasn't very good anyway, but the most recent Spenser
novel shows Spenser being hired to protect innocent people, but his
client is deceiving him.

Then there's the political side, where welfare or PC is portrayed as a
mistaken attempt to rescue the innocent.  Say, have you read /Atlas
Shrugged/?

Mrs. Jellyby in /Bleak House/ might be an example of a different kind
of hypocrisy, helping the poor in distant countries at her family's
expense.

For delusion in the sense of mental illness, I believe a good example
would be "Your Faces, O My Sisters!  Your Faces Full of Light!" by
"James Tiptree, Jr."  A marginal case is Nabokov's /Pale Fire/ (which
I'm always bringing up).  Among the narrator's delusions is that he's
protecting the reputation of his dead friend and his friend's poem
from others.  (Strange mirror image of your novel, where the real
person's reputation became unimportant after he died.)  I don't know
whether you know /Pale Fire/, that remarkable book.  The narrator is
gay, and I believe a great deal can be said about his sexuality,
mostly not in Nabokov's favor.

--
Jerry Friedman
Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 May 2009 03:48 GMT
> For delusion in the sense of mental illness, I believe a good example
> would be "Your Faces, O My Sisters!  Your Faces Full of Light!" by
> "James Tiptree, Jr."

Out of curiosity, do you similarly put "Mark Twain" or "O. Henry" or
"James Herriot" in quotes?

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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 05 May 2009 05:26 GMT
> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com writes:
> > For delusion in the sense of mental illness, I believe a good example
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Out of curiosity, do you similarly put "Mark Twain" or "O. Henry" or
> "James Herriot" in quotes?

I don't think so.  But thinking that those names are the authors' real
names doesn't lead you to any false conclusions.

--
Jerry Friedman
Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 May 2009 07:50 GMT
>> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com writes:
>> > For delusion in the sense of mental illness, I believe a good example
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I don't think so.  But thinking that those names are the authors'
> real names doesn't lead you to any false conclusions.

Other than, presumably, that those are the author's real names.

So presumably, it's "George Sand" and "Isak Dinesen", as well.  How
about Andre Norton?  C.J. Cherryh?

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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 05 May 2009 14:42 GMT
> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com writes:
> >> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com writes:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Other than, presumably, that those are the author's real names.

Exactly.

> So presumably, it's "George Sand" and "Isak Dinesen", as well.  How
> about Andre Norton?  C.J. Cherryh?

Possibly Norton.  Sand and Dinesen, and George Eliot, are so well-
known that I wouldn't bother.  However, I don't recall Lars ever
mentioning sf, and he might not have heard of Tiptree.

Initials aren't misleading.

--
Jerry Friedman
Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 May 2009 16:34 GMT
>> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com writes:
>> >> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com writes:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Initials aren't misleading.

Which is an interesting take, as I'm pretty sure I've read that
Carolyn Cherry used her initials explicitly to hide the fact that she
was female.  (The extra "h" was added because Donald Wollheim said
that "Cherry" sounded like someone who wrote romance novels.  Had she
started later, I suspect it would have been "like a porn star".)

I'm curious what other forms of pen-name you'd find worthy (and not
worthy) of this treatment.  If it makes it sound as though a writer is
Jewish or Asian, or upper class?

The only time I can see myself doing it are for pen names that cover
groups of writers (e.g., Franklin W. Dixon or Carolyn Keene) or if the
writer is more famous under another name (e.g., Richard Bachman or
Paul French).  And even then, especially in the former case, I
probably wouldn't bother if I were simply recommending a story to
someone.

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tony cooper - 05 May 2009 17:28 GMT
>The only time I can see myself doing it are for pen names that cover
>groups of writers (e.g., Franklin W. Dixon or Carolyn Keene) or if the
>writer is more famous under another name (e.g., Richard Bachman or
>Paul French).  And even then, especially in the former case, I
>probably wouldn't bother if I were simply recommending a story to
>someone.

Some authors - John Creasy comes to mind - use different pen names for
different series or when writing in a different genre.  

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Wood Avens - 05 May 2009 17:30 GMT
>Some authors - John Creasy comes to mind - use different pen names for
>different series or when writing in a different genre.  

Iain Banks / Iain M. Banks is another example.

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R H Draney - 05 May 2009 17:36 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

>I'm curious what other forms of pen-name you'd find worthy (and not
>worthy) of this treatment.  If it makes it sound as though a writer is
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>probably wouldn't bother if I were simply recommending a story to
>someone.

How about in a non-prose context:

 "1712 Overture" by "PDQ Bach"?
 "Hot! Hot! Hot!" by "Buster Poindexter"?
 "Life's What You Make It" by "Hannah Montana"?

....r

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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 05 May 2009 18:57 GMT
> Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>   "Hot! Hot! Hot!" by "Buster Poindexter"?
>   "Life's What You Make It" by "Hannah Montana"?

Definitely "Skating Away" by Jethro Tull, in my opinion.

--
Jerry Friedman
R H Draney - 05 May 2009 21:07 GMT
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com filted:

>> How about in a non-prose context:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Definitely "Skating Away" by Jethro Tull, in my opinion.

At the risk of offending a still-living composer, there arises the problem of
whether "Walter" or "Wendy" Carlos should require scare quotes....r

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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 05 May 2009 18:43 GMT
> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com writes:
> >> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com writes:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Carolyn Cherry used her initials explicitly to hide the fact that she
> was female.

It hid the fact that it was female, but it didn't cause intelligent
readers to think she was male--it just left them in doubt.

This practice is somewhat self-defeating--the fact that some female
writers go by their initials leads one to suspect that writers going
by their initials are female.

By the way, Ursula K. LeGuin published one story in /Playboy/ ("Nine
Lives"); she was listed as "U. K. LeGuin".  Later she said that her
consciousness had since been raised and she wouldn't accept that any
more.

> (The extra "h" was added because Donald Wollheim said
> that "Cherry" sounded like someone who wrote romance novels.  Had she
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> worthy) of this treatment.  If it makes it sound as though a writer is
> Jewish or Asian, or upper class?
...

I wondered about that and didn't come to any conclusions.  I suspect
it's been more common for Jewish writers to adopt Gentile-sounding
pseudonyms than the other way around.  Speaking of not coming to
conclusions, I think I sounded above as if I'd thought this out, but
when I put Tiptree's name in quotation marks I wasn't consciously
thinking about why.

Speaking of ethnic misleading, I would use the quotation marks in
cases of fraud, such as "Nasdijj" (Timothy Barrus), who prompted Lars
to think about the subject of this thread.

--
Jerry Friedman
Nick - 05 May 2009 19:14 GMT
> This practice is somewhat self-defeating--the fact that some female
> writers go by their initials leads one to suspect that writers going
> by their initials are female.

GK Chesterton, HG Wells, PG Wodehouse.  Gad - you're onto something Holmes!
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 05 May 2009 19:38 GMT
> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com writes:
> > This practice is somewhat self-defeating--the fact that some female
> > writers go by their initials leads one to suspect that writers going
> > by their initials are female.
>
> GK Chesterton, HG Wells, PG Wodehouse.  Gad - you're onto something Holmes!

To start with, I used "go", "going", and "are", not "have gone", "who
went", and "were".  I thought I covered the rest with "some" and
"suspect".  My "one" may have been too inclusive, though.

--
Jerry Friedman
R H Draney - 05 May 2009 21:09 GMT
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com filted:

>This practice is somewhat self-defeating--the fact that some female
>writers go by their initials leads one to suspect that writers going
>by their initials are female.

Tread softly....r

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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 05 May 2009 23:45 GMT
> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com filted:>
> >This practice is somewhat self-defeating--the fact that some female
> >writers go by their initials leads one to suspect that writers going
> >by their initials are female.
>
> Tread softly....r

I did, till I found out the situation, Rita.

--
Jerry Friedman
Lars Eighner - 05 May 2009 04:44 GMT
In our last episode,
<761ecfbf-038e-4366-9e4a-da9373de0079@q2g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>, the
lovely and talented jerry_friedman@yahoo.com broadcast on alt.usage.english:

>> The rescue of innocents/innocence appears to be an old theme in literature,
>> and Google shows a volume that deals with this theme in Medieval literature.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>> motif especially where rescue of innocents is coupled with mental
>> disturbance and/or hypocrisy.

> Hypocrisy of the holier-than-thou kind, or deliberate posing as a
> victim?

To put my cards on the table:  I discovered about ten days ago that I have
fallen into someone's delusions of persecution, as the result of my rather
minor involvement in a professional embarrassment he suffered a few years
ago.

Those not familiar with the original controversy can find an independent
account here:

<http://www.laweekly.com/2006-01-26/news/navahoax/1>
Los Angeles News - Navahoax - page 1

and my take on those events here:

<http://larseighner.com/archives/2006-01.html#e2006-01-27T08_01_05.txt>
Lars Eighner's The Main Blog Archives: January 2006.

The upshot of it was that I encouraged the investigators perhaps a little,
but they were well on the way to their conclusion without me by the time I
was consulted.

The following month I wrote something about truth in literature,
which I thought was quite good, but no one noticed it:

<http://larseighner.com/archives/2006-02.html#e2006-02-04T22_13_11.txt>
Lars Eighner's The Main Blog Archives: February 2006.

That put the matter to rest for me.  I went about my business and forgot it.
Until, as I say, about ten day's ago.

Then I discovered that my name was being regularly abused here:

<http://le-too.blogspot.com/>
tim barrus' official blog: le-too: boys hate art.

Moreover, I discovered from this site:

<http://nasdijj.blogspot.com/>
Nasdijj Come Home

that apparently the delusions involving my name had been carried over
several blogs, some of which are now defunct, and that my name had been
associated with various videos on video sites like (but not always
including) YouTube.  The nature of those videos I do not know as I am on
dial-up and also do not have Flash capable software.

Well, you know, if you start chasing down everyone on the Internet who says
bad things about you there will be no end to it.  The site in my sig was an
attempt to poke back with satire, but these events set me to wondering.

I think, and so do the folks as the critical site, that the blogs and videos
which have mentioned me are all the work of one person, although supposedly
they are the work of various young people.  I believe anyone with an eye for
style will see, even through web fonts, the same hand in all of the
articles.

In short, it is this, this person has erected at least two different
entirely fictional projects supposedly art colonies for adolescent males who
have been subject to abuse (mostly sexual) and who suffer various
afflictions (HIV, drug addiction) which are likely to be fatal.  He casts
himself as their mentor and rescuer, and has involved me --- or invoked my
name, since between the truth-in-literature essay cited above in February of
2006 and the satire site (in sig) erected last week I have had nothing to
say about this person in public or private or tried in any way to
communicate with him --- invoked my name as the identity of some threatening
stalker and tormentor, with bad intentions toward the rescue projects and
sexual designs on the fictional participants.  This is not exactly the
reverse of the actual situation because I am unware that this person has
ever tried to contact me directly.

Well, this is annoying, but very minor in the scale of my general daily
challenges.  However it did set me to thinking about the role of rescuer in
literature, especially when that role seems to be sublimating --- and often
not very well --- something else.

I wasn't allowed tawdry comics when I was a child in the '50s, but thanks to
the web I have learned a little about the female-in-peril detective comics
whose covers gave us such lovely euphemisms as 'headlights.' Many of the
covers involved tightly bound, scantily clad but very buxom young ladies in
some grave danger.  These young ladies were supposed to be rescued, and in
the story lines of the comics invariably were.  But, gosh darn it, it seems
to me the way they were depicted might have inspired some other thoughts in
adolescent readers and that inspiration might actually have been intentional
on the part of the artists.  Tell me if I am being too coy here.

Next I thought of /The/ /Catcher/ /in/ /the/ /Rye/.  Holden has a noble
image of himself, aspiring to be the catcher in the rye, grabbing children
in danger of throwing themselves, accidently or on purpose, off a precipice.
On the slightly less imaginary level he wants to protect children from
seeing obscene graffiti.  This and 'phonies' are his major peeves.  But of
course he is the phony.  He lies when it suits and sometimes for no
discernible reason --- prides himself on being a 'terrific liar,'
manipulates everyone around him, and so forth.  He plays Hamlet over the
matter of engaging a prostitute, yet the graffiti offends him to the core.
Clearly it is his own innocence he wants to save, and just as clearly it is
too late.  (I believe a story by Hortense Calisher in the New Yorker
concerning a suicide by jumping from a building was Salinger's jumping off
point so to speak, and it seems to me the antecedents of the Glass family
can also be found in previous issues.)

In the '50s there was still on library shelves a peculiar form of
pornography, which I am not sure has been well documented.  It was what I
call "case studies." These were pulp books, not too be mistaken for
Krafft-Ebing.  These volumes described in loving detail the perverse and
abhorrent sexual activities of psychiatric patients, with a few comments on
the sadness and hopelessness of the case by the recording mental health
professional.  Conveniently each volume only sorted out one kind of
perversion, and some perversions seemed to deserve numerous similar volumes.
But of course the reader would only be interested in these books if he were
devoted improving the mental of the community!  At any rate, here were
mental health professionals --- the authors of the case study books ---
trying to rescue these poor patients from their afflictions, hopeless as the
task might be.

Anyway, I am trying to connect the dots between the various rescuers, the
real person who was the model for the character in my novel, and the present
case of rescuing adolescent males, who tend to lose their shirts often and
who have awful, detailed histories of abuse, through art projects.

There is something to all this, but I don't know that I have the means,
intellectual or material, to bring it all together.

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       Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> usenet@larseighner.com
                         INCREDIBLE new art blog:
                http://inflagrantedilettante.blogspot.com/

tony cooper - 05 May 2009 05:26 GMT
>To put my cards on the table:

Too many cards.  Too much information.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Peter Brandt Nielsen - 04 May 2009 17:11 GMT
> The rescue of innocents/innocence appears to be an old theme in literature,
> and Google shows a volume that deals with this theme in Medieval literature.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> motif especially where rescue of innocents is coupled with mental
> disturbance and/or hypocrisy.

I don't know if it's what you're looking for, but I'm thinking about
"The Kite Runner", where the main character returns to Afghanistan to
rescue the young son of his former best friend from an uncertain fate,
which involves a child molester. At issue is also the main character's
feelings of guilt about the child's father.
 
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