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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009concrete
Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. Some dictionaries mention "factual" as a synonim of concrete, but for me it sounds a bit weird. Is it correct? Isn't there a substantial stylistic difference? >Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the >antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. I have no idea of what the "average" NE speaker's understanding is, but I would not hesitate to use "Give me a concrete example of...". I would expect anyone I directed that comment to to understand the meaning. However, the "average" NE speakers I'm in contact with are not the full range of "average". "Average" is going to include people who do not have a working concept of concrete vs abstract. They may be able to understand if you give examples of "concrete" and "abstract", but you'd have to explain the terms. They can have an average understanding of English but not have an extensive vocabulary.  SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the >>antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I would expect anyone I directed that comment to to understand the > meaning. I agree. I'm only posting a reply here to recount the anecdote of the 1906 San Francisco earthquake, when the statue of naturalist Louis Agassiz fell from a shelf at the front of the Zoology building (now the psych building) at the front of the Stanford Quad and embedded, head down, in the ground below. http://tinyurl.com/d3rl8f <URL:http://quake06.stanford.edu/centennial/gallery/structures/ quad/pages/A025_v1_agassiz2.html> President David Starr Jordan wrote, "Somebody--Dr. Angell, perhaps--remarked that 'Agassiz was great in the abstract but not in the concrete.'" http://quake06.stanford.edu/centennial/tour/stop3.html When I was there, I learned it as "Agassiz always was better in the abstract than in the concrete." SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The purpose of writing is to inflate 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and inhibit clarity. With a little |practice, writing can be an kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |intimidating and impenetrable fog! (650)857-7572 | Calvin http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the >>>antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > When I was there, I learned it as "Agassiz always was better in the > abstract than in the concrete." Was the statue maintained in that position to the present day? Pat wrote on Sat, 2 May 2009 10:24:04 -0500: >>>> Does the average English native speaker understand concrete >>>> as the antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> When I was there, I learned it as "Agassiz always was better >> in the abstract than in the concrete." AFAIK, unfortunately, not! SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Was the statue maintained in that position to the present day? No. They put it back up on the building when the Quad was repaired. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The great thing about Microsoft 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |dominating the world is that Palo Alto, CA 94304 |there's no shortage of support |opportunities. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Sam Alvis (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the > antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. No, the average English native speaker understands concrete as being a mixture of sand, gravel and cement, used in the building industry. DC -- >> Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the >> antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. > > No, the average English native speaker understands concrete as being a > mixture of sand, gravel and cement, used in the building industry. But the "average" educated speaker knows well that it's the opposite of "abstract", as Tony says above. Oddly, I think my pronunciation varies from iambic "ti-tum" to trochaic "tum-ti" in the "non-abstract" use: I won't swear to it, but I think it's "tum-ti" in "a concrete example" and "ti-tum" at the end of a clause. The building material is always iambic. SignatureMike. > > > Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the > > > antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > "a concrete example" and "ti-tum" at the end of a clause. The > building material is always iambic. Good point. But isn't concrete the antonym of discrete? DC -- > Good point. But isn't concrete the antonym of discrete? Not to Don Knuth. His course (and book) entitled "Concrete Math" used the word as a portmanteau of "continuous" and "discrete" (as well as as an antonym of "abstract"). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_math One of the best courses I took at Stanford. (When I took it, the book was still being written, so we primarily used the first chapters of Volume 1[1] as our text.) [1] Computer scientists of the time will need no further elaboration. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The plural of "anecdote" 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |is not "data" Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > > > Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the > > > > antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > DC > -- The antonym of discrete is continous. (Control theory :) > Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the > antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. > > Some dictionaries mention "factual" as a synonim of concrete, but for > me it sounds a bit weird. Is it correct? Isn't there a substantial > stylistic difference? If I may <swine flu alert> piggy-back on this post, could someone please explain to me why EFL courses so often try to teach the alleged difference between concrete and abstract nouns? I have never seen any aspect of English syntax or semantics that is dependent on whether a given noun is concrete or abstract. I'm willing to be educated. SignatureBob Lieblich Accrete and distract > > Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the > > antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > please explain to me why EFL courses so often try to teach the alleged > difference between concrete and abstract nouns? Do you have any hard evidence that they do, Bob? I will admit that I do mention this from time to time in class, but I'd think the best answer to your question would probably be "because EFL students like that sort of thing". >I have never seen any > aspect of English syntax or semantics that is dependent on whether a > given noun is concrete or abstract. I'm willing to be educated. It helps when you're trying to explain to students based here in Manchester the difference between "what is this thing called love?" and "what is this thing called, love?" DC. Oink. -- > > > Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the > > > antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > answer to your question would probably be "because EFL students like > that sort of thing". I haven't dug through Google, but I know we've had past threads on the topic. Many responders have tried, with limited success, to draw a line between the two. I suppose it might be useful in a class on philosophy, but I think your explanation makes the most sense. I do hope questions about concrete vs abstract aren't on the exam. > >I have never seen any > > aspect of English syntax or semantics that is dependent on whether a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Manchester the difference between "what is this thing called love?" and > "what is this thing called, love?" "What, is this thing called "love"? That aside, thank you, DC. SignatureBob Lieblich Abstracting his own concrete >> Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the >> antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > aspect of English syntax or semantics that is dependent on whether a > given noun is concrete or abstract. I'm willing to be educated. Just a guess, but it may be a guide as to whether you can use an indefinite article in normal speech. For example, it /is/ possible to say "a silence", but hardly common. SignatureRob Bannister > Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the > antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. > > Some dictionaries mention "factual" as a synonim of concrete, but for > me it sounds a bit weird. Is it correct? Isn't there a substantial > stylisticdifference? In aggregate, yes. Jim > In aggregate, yes. I always feel sorry for those footballers who win their matches on aggregate. It must play the devil with their knees. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > <brya...@attglobal.net> writes: > > In aggregate, yes. > > I always feel sorry for those footballers who win their matches on > aggregate. It must play the devil with their knees. My wife can never hear references to football matches being "two- legged" (played over two legs) without giggling. Mike M >> <brya...@attglobal.net> writes: >>> In aggregate, yes. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > My wife can never hear references to football matches being "two- > legged" (played over two legs) without giggling. Which reminds me: I am rehearsing for an evensong in the Lakes in a couple of weeks. The Psalm is 147, which contains the bizarre line: - He delighteth not in the strength of the horse: he taketh not pleasure in the legs of a man. 'Nuff said. SignatureDavid > >><brya...@attglobal.net> writes: > > > > In aggregate, yes. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Which reminds me: I am rehearsing for an evensong in the Lakes in a > couple of weeks. The Psalm is 147, which contains the bizarre line: We drove up to the lakes today (it's become a tradition around Mrs C's birthday), went to our favourite eatery on Ullswater and visited Conniston Water for the first time. Definitely good for the soul. DC -- >>>> <brya...@attglobal.net> writes: >>>>> In aggregate, yes. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > birthday), went to our favourite eatery on Ullswater and visited > Conniston Water for the first time. Definitely good for the soul. Fish restaurant, was it? SignatureDavid >the Omrud wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >birthday), went to our favourite eatery on Ullswater and visited >Conniston Water for the first time. Definitely good for the soul. Certainly. Was there (and there, too) with Mrs W five weeks ago. The White Lion in Patterdale (Herdwick lamb shanks) qualifies for the former, us-wise, though its cordon is not so generally bleu. SignaturePaul > > the Omrud wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > White Lion in Patterdale (Herdwick lamb shanks) qualifies for the > former, us-wise, though its cordon is not so generally bleu. We drove past that - I'll check it out next time. DC -- > Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the > antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. > > Some dictionaries mention "factual" as a synonim of concrete, but for > me it sounds a bit weird. Is it correct? Isn't there a substantial > stylistic difference? By average I mean people, who are not college educated. >> Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the >> antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > By average I mean people, who are not college educated. Define "college educated". From the 2000 census http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-24.pdf more than half (51.8%) of all Americans over 25 have attended college, although only 24.4% have received at least a bachelor's degree. And it's been this way for a while. When broken down by age, you have to get up to those 60 or older before you get to an age group for which less than half have attended college. On the specific question, I'd expect high school graduates to understand "concrete" in its sense of "not abstract". That's 80.4% of the adult population, more than three fifths in all age groups, and at least (nearly) three quarters in all states (though only 60% in Puerto Rico). SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The great thing about Microsoft 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |dominating the world is that Palo Alto, CA 94304 |there's no shortage of support |opportunities. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Sam Alvis (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >> Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the > >> antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Quite an elaborated answer, thanks. > Does the average English native speaker understand concrete as the > antonym of abstract? If not, how would they say it. > > Some dictionaries mention "factual" as a synonim of concrete, but for > me it sounds a bit weird. Is it correct? Isn't there a substantial > stylistic difference? (...) It is incorrect to say that factual is a synonym for concrete. For example, "vague" is an abstract term. You would never know what it means without learning it from context. "foggy" is a metaphorical word for the same thing, and it brings your reading level down, which is almost always good. If a word has meaning in physics or perception, then it is concrete. _______ http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/Saffron_Karaoke_Duet.wmv Version Seven (Quartet) will contain vocals, and it is up in the air whether I will get http://playscreen.com/SherLok to host it, because they are not coming through to me, today. |
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