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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009"Learn some craft when young, that when old you may live without craft."
Ladies and Gentlemen: Someone on a Taiwanese forum asked about the use of the "that" in the following sentence: Learn some craft when young, that when old you may live without craft. From what I can gather on Google, this sentence and its variations are of anonymous origin, and have never been recorded in the literature after 1983, in which /Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary/ was published. Besides that, all the books are reference books. So, I assume this "that" is an archaic use of "that" as a conjunction...? * The variation: Learn some craft when young, that you may do without craft when old. Best Wishes Tacia >Ladies and Gentlemen: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >So, I assume this "that" is an archaic use of "that" as a >conjunction...? It is an archaic sense meaning "so that". The most recent quotation using this form in OED is: 1868 TENNYSON Lucretius 66 A fire..scorch'd me that I woke. >* The variation: > Learn some craft when young, that you may do without craft when old. > >Best Wishes >Tacia  SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote, in <r0dpv49g3l3qtqjq5n0ddjhjgoeiufmnnn@4ax.com> on Sat, 02 May 2009 22:01:36 +0100: > >Ladies and Gentlemen: > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >* The variation: > > Learn some craft when young, that you may do without craft when old. Matthew 7 verse 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > Ladies and Gentlemen: > > Someone on a Taiwanese forum asked about the use of the "that" in the > following sentence: > Learn some craft when young, that when old you may live without craft. I've never heard this saying, but modern (BrE, at least) usage would be 'trade', not craft: 'Learn a trade when you're young, so that when you're old you don't have to work at it.' Something like that. I'm not sure how sound that advice is... >So, I assume this "that" is an archaic use of "that" as a >conjunction...? That's right. Here's Big Bill Shakespeare: "If music be the food of love, play on; Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting, The appetite may sicken, and so die." (A bit like listening to Metallica; 10 minutes is great...) DC -- >> Ladies and Gentlemen: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Something like that. I'm not sure how sound that advice is... That is not a paraphrase of the original as I understood it. "Craft" is used with two meanings, the first is "trade" or "skill", the second is "craftiness". OED: 6. a. An art, trade, or profession requiring special skill and knowledge; esp. a manual art, 4. a. In a bad sense: Skill or art applied to deceive or overreach; deceit, guile, fraud, cunning. (The chief modern sense; cf. ART 13: in craft, the bad sense is more explicit.) >>So, I assume this "that" is an archaic use of "that" as a >>conjunction...? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >DC SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >> Ladies and Gentlemen: > >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > is used with two meanings, the first is "trade" or "skill", the > second is "craftiness". Ah ha. From Googling I learn this is the classic example of something called 'antanaclasis' (apparently this is a posh kind of pun); surely we could some up with something better? DC -- > > >> Ladies and Gentlemen: > > >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > DC or even 'come up with something better'. -- >>>>> Ladies and Gentlemen: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > or even 'come up with something better'. or even "sum up with something better". SignatureMike. > > > >> Ladies and Gentlemen: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > or even 'come up with something better'. Thanks for the word. How could something be better than "antanaclasis"? An example of hemi-antanaclastic chiasmus is a friend's description of some women's looks, which I fear I've quoted here before: "good from far, but far from good". -- Jerry Friedman >>>> Ladies and Gentlemen: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > called 'antanaclasis' (apparently this is a posh kind of pun); surely > we could some up with something better? For a moment, I thought that was an eye spelling of ante-natal class. SignatureRob Bannister >>> Ladies and Gentlemen: >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > deceit, guile, fraud, cunning. (The chief modern sense; cf. ART 13: > in craft, the bad sense is more explicit.) Of course, you could hear it exactly the opposite way. Learn craftiness when young, that when old you may live without craft. SignatureJohn > > That is not a paraphrase of the original as I understood it. > > "Craft" is used with two meanings, the first is "trade" or "skill", [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Of course, you could hear it exactly the opposite way. Learn > craftiness when young, that when old you may live without craft. But then it wouldn't be antanaclasis. What you could do, though, is substitute 'art' for 'craft'. DC -- > > > That is not a paraphrase of the original as I understood it. > > > "Craft" is used with two meanings, the first is "trade" or "skill", [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > But then it wouldn't be antanaclasis. What you could do, though, is > substitute 'art' for 'craft'. Or "learn craft when young, that when old you may live without a craft". -- Jerry Friedman >>>> That is not a paraphrase of the original as I understood it. >>>> "Craft" is used with two meanings, the first is "trade" or [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>>> overreach; deceit, guile, fraud, cunning. (The chief modern >>>> sense; cf. ART 13: in craft, the bad sense is more explicit.) >>> Of course, you could hear it exactly the opposite way. Learn >>> craftiness when young, that when old you may live without craft. >> But then it wouldn't be antanaclasis. What you could do, though, is >> substitute 'art' for 'craft'. > Or "learn craft when young, that when old you may live without a > craft". Mildly interesting that one use of "graft", meaning "corruption", is attributed to the same transfer of meaning from "occupation". The OEtymD doesn't say so, but it seems likely to me that there was some influence from the similarity to "craft", at least at the BrE slang level. Graft (2): "corruption," 1859 (as a verb), Amer.Eng., perhaps from graft (1) via Brit. slang sense of "one's occupation" (1853), which seems to be from the word's original sense of "digging". http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=graft >>>>> That is not a paraphrase of the original as I understood it. >>>>> "Craft" is used with two meanings, the first is "trade" or [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=graft The OED says: Origin uncertain. Perhaps a use of GRAFT n.4 work (cf. job); but some authorities connect it with GRAFT n.1 with the notion of excrescence. graft n.1 is the plant and tissue graft sense. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>> That is not a paraphrase of the original as I understood it. >>>>>> "Craft" is used with two meanings, the first is "trade" or >>>>>> "skill", the second is "craftiness". >>>>>> OED: >>>>>> 6. a. An art, trade, or profession requiring special skill and >>>>>> knowledge; esp. a manual art, >>>>>> 4. a. In a bad sense: Skill or art applied to deceive or >>>>>> overreach; deceit, guile, fraud, cunning. (The chief modern >>>>>> sense; cf. ART 13: in craft, the bad sense is more explicit.) >>>>> Of course, you could hear it exactly the opposite way. Learn >>>>> craftiness when young, that when old you may live without craft. >>>> But then it wouldn't be antanaclasis. What you could do, though, >>>> is substitute 'art' for 'craft'. >>> Or "learn craft when young, that when old you may live without a >>> craft". >> Mildly interesting that one use of "graft", meaning "corruption", >> is attributed to the same transfer of meaning from "occupation". >> The OEtymD doesn't say so, but it seems likely to me that there >> was some influence from the similarity to "craft", at least at the >> BrE slang level. >> Graft (2): >> "corruption," 1859 (as a verb), Amer.Eng., perhaps from graft (1) >> via Brit. slang sense of "one's occupation" (1853), which seems to >> be from the word's original sense of "digging". >> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=graft > The OED says: > Origin uncertain. Perhaps a use of GRAFT n.4 'work' (cf. job); > but some authorities connect it with GRAFT n.1 with the notion of > 'excrescence'. > graft n.1 is the plant and tissue graft sense. Maybe. A graft would be more of an implantation than an excrescence; but I agree that it's uncertain. That's why I was careful to say "is attributed" and quote the source, and also why it was only "mildly" interesting: a cold wind from off the Guardian. >>>>>>> That is not a paraphrase of the original as I understood it. >>>>>>> "Craft" is used with two meanings, the first is "trade" or [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > attributed" and quote the source, and also why it was only "mildly" > interesting: a cold wind from off the Guardian. "Let occupation flourish!" SignatureMike. >>>> That is not a paraphrase of the original as I understood it. >>>> "Craft" is used with two meanings, the first is "trade" or "skill", [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Or "learn craft when young, that when old you may live without a > craft". Once, while working in a chicken slaughterhouse in Wiveliscombe, I was shown some trick or other by one of the senior workers, who winked, saying "Tin't no use gettin ould, if 'ee don't get /arrtful/." Counsel I have striven in utter vain to follow. SignatureMike. > So, I assume this "that" is an archaic use of "that" as a > conjunction...? Maybe not archaic to all dialects. I noticed a line in a newish episode of Last of the Summer Wine: "What's tha doin' that tha musn't be disturbed?". Although the character was a bit of a pretentious geek. --Iain |
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