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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009Tech usage: "It's a religious thing...."
I hope you are all in good spirits. I work in a scientific/technological environment (Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in Berkeley, California -- an extended part of Silicon Valley, near San Francisco - San Jose). In this environment, one often hears the statement, "It's a religious thing...." which means (typically), it is an issue there's no point in disputing because people have already decided the issue, and they cannot be persuaded. The issue in question almost never has anything to do with religion, it usually has to do with some specific technological preference. I'd like to know if this is widely used (beyond scientific/ technological or academic environments), or if it is a niche usage. Any feedback you might have would be appreciated. For clarity, an example: "Would Professor Johnson prefer to go with the Windows operating system, or a version of the Linux operating system?" Reply: "Oh, he'll definitely want to go with Windows." Objection: "But there are so many advantages with Linux...." Reply that discontinues the dispute: "Believe me, he'll want to go with Windows regardless of anything you say -- it's a religious thing...." [end of discussion] Thanks again for any insights you may offer. -- Brett http://www.100bestwebsites.org/ "The 100 finest sites on the Web, all in one place!" Widely-watched non-profit ranking of top Internet sites > I work in a scientific/technological environment (Lawrence Berkeley > National Laboratory in Berkeley, California -- an extended part of [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Thanks again for any insights you may offer. This is not a point of technical usage but of polemics or rhetorical argument, perhaps in a culturally jejune context, where people accept that "this is religious" causes argument to cease. Many people do not accept that the citation of this word stops argument. Synonyms include dogmatic (derived from theology) and categorial (derived from analytic philosophy.) In some environments (many more than just theological or philosophical argument) plenty can still be said about items of dogma or categories of thought. If you look at this situation functionally, it requires consensus (viz. agreement that "it is religious" fitly terminates discussion.) This agreement may be socially necessary for a quiet life in some evironments, but nothing in the wider world appears to compel it.  SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >This is not a point of technical usage but of polemics or rhetorical >argument, perhaps in a culturally jejune context, where people [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >more than just theological or philosophical argument) plenty can >still be said about items of dogma or categories of thought. Can you restate that in English? -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness Don Phillipson: >> This is not a point of technical usage but of polemics or rhetorical >> argument, perhaps in a culturally jejune context... Garrett Wollman: > Can you restate that in English? He's trying to insult us. SignatureMark Brader "Fighting off all of the species which you Toronto have insulted would be a full-time mission." msb@vex.net "Deja Q", ST:TNG, Richard Danus >> I work in a scientific/technological environment (Lawrence Berkeley >> National Laboratory in Berkeley, California -- an extended part of [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >This agreement may be socially necessary for a quiet life in some >evironments, but nothing in the wider world appears to compel it. I don't think "it's a religious thing" is intended to terminate discussion. It's usually said of someone else, suggesting that it may be useless to discuss the matter with them, since their views are determined by faith or irrational affection. SignatureJohn >I hope you are all in good spirits. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >religion, it usually has to do with some specific technological >preference. Who is to say that Emacs is not a religion? -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>I hope you are all in good spirits. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Who is to say that Emacs is not a religion? *ahem* Emacs is a heresy; vi is a religion. (And to the original poster, I humbly suggest that the Hackers' Dictionary entry on "holy war" may provide a bit of insight into the original question. <http://www.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/~joern/jargon/holywars.HTML> Calling something 'religious' or a 'holy war' does not mean that discussion ceases; on the contrary, discussion will continue ad infinitum on and off, but generating more heat than light and probably not hanging anybody's mind. Some geek holy wars are so infamous and so long-running that they're instantly recognized as such when the topic comes up, and likely to be invoked in a joking or half-joking manner in place of earnest argument, such as the vi vs. Emacs holy war. <http://www.linux.com/feature/19661> N.b. the _half-joking_ bit; folks can be quite serious about their side while using a joking tone to avoid getting into fights with heretic friends and co-workers. (As to Emacs and vi, many users of either will agree that the other is a "real editor" unlike many other far less powerful editors out there.) SignatureD. Glenn Arthur Jr./The Human Vibrator, dglenn@panix.com Due to hand/wrist problems my newsreading time varies so I may miss followups. "Being a _man_ means knowing that one has a choice not to act like a 'man'." http://www.panix.com/~dglenn/ http://dglenn.livejournal.com >>>I hope you are all in good spirits. >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Emacs is a heresy; vi is a religion. Hold on a second. Isn't Emacs the older of the two, by a couple of years? > (And to the original poster, I humbly suggest that the Hackers' > Dictionary entry on "holy war" may provide a bit of insight into the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > will agree that the other is a "real editor" unlike many other far > less powerful editors out there.) Oh, Emacs and vi are both real editors. In much the same way that the United States and Liechtenstein are both countries. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If all else fails, embarrass the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |industry into doing the right Palo Alto, CA 94304 |thing. | Dean Thompson kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ [...] > Oh, Emacs and vi are both real editors. In much the same way that the > United States and Liechtenstein are both countries. Horses for courses, innit. If you want a _real_ pizza, go to America; if you're into tax evasion, go to Liechtenstein. SignatureLes (BrE) > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Horses for courses, innit. If you want a _real_ pizza, go to > America; if you're into tax evasion, go to Liechtenstein. Other than "You can assume that it will be there on any Unix box" (but probably nowhere else), I never did find out what vi's advantage was supposed to be. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The whole idea of our government is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |this: if enough people get together Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and act in concert, they can take |something and not pay for it. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan wrote on Mon, 04 May 2009 09:54:38 -0700: >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Horses for courses, innit. If you want a _real_ pizza, go to >> America; if you're into tax evasion, go to Liechtenstein. > Other than "You can assume that it will be there on any Unix > box" (but probably nowhere else), I never did find out what > vi's advantage was supposed to be. Its only advantage is that is extremely easy to learn and to forget. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > probably nowhere else), I never did find out what vi's advantage was > supposed to be. The only vi I know is ':q!' (where the quotes are acting as setting off what I'm quoting). And that's only because, just as you say, it's ubiquitious and at various times something would kindly launch it for me on systems I hadn't got round to installing emacs on. But actually vi clearly does what a lot of people need - and I believe that many modern vi's (a perfect place for the apostrophe I think!) are nowhere near as clunky as the old modal versions. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu Nick Atty: > But actually vi clearly does what a lot of people need - and I believe > that many modern vi's (a perfect place for the apostrophe I think!) are > nowhere near as clunky as the old modal versions. Being modal is one of the *good* things about vi. SignatureMark Brader "'A matter of opinion'[?] I have to say you are Toronto right. There['s] your opinion, which is wrong, msb@vex.net and mine, which is right." -- Gene Ward Smith Mark Brader filted: >Nick Atty: >> But actually vi clearly does what a lot of people need - and I believe >> that many modern vi's (a perfect place for the apostrophe I think!) are >> nowhere near as clunky as the old modal versions. > >Being modal is one of the *good* things about vi. A minor advantage at best, since vi would be the Aeolian mode....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Other than "You can assume that it will be there on any Unix box" (but >probably nowhere else), I never did find out what vi's advantage was >supposed to be. Its advantage is supposed to be that a proficient user's fingers need never leave the home row. Some people (not I) also find hjkl more intuitive than bnpf or esdx. (Those using Dvorak keyboards will be left in the cold by all of these possibilities....) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>Other than "You can assume that it will be there on any Unix box" >>(but probably nowhere else), I never did find out what vi's >>advantage was supposed to be. > > Its advantage is supposed to be that a proficient user's fingers > need never leave the home row. There aren't a whole lot of words you can type that way, though. > Some people (not I) also find hjkl more intuitive than bnpf or esdx. Others, who learned that you put your fingers on "jkl;" when typing, find it a pain. It's not too bad when playing Rogue, though. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |English is about as pure as a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |cribhouse whore. We don't just Palo Alto, CA 94304 |borrow words; on occasion, English |has pursued other languages down kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |alleyways to beat them unconscious (650)857-7572 |and rifle their pockets for new |vocabulary. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | --James D. Nicoll >>>>I hope you are all in good spirits. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Hold on a second. Isn't Emacs the older of the two, by a couple of >years? Does a heresy have to postdate an orthodoxy or can it be the continuation of a system of belief that has been "corrected" to create an orthodoxy? For instance, Islam draws on and supersedes Judaism and Christianity. Are the latter two heretical from the point of view of Islam? I would have thought that the term "heresy" is used intra-species rather than inter-species, as it were. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Berkeley Brett filted: >I work in a scientific/technological environment (Lawrence Berkeley >National Laboratory in Berkeley, California -- an extended part of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >technological or academic environments), or if it is a niche usage. >Any feedback you might have would be appreciated. You sometimes used to hear this sort of thing between drivers of Fords and Chevys, each convinced beyond all reason that *their* car was wonderful in every way and anyone who would actually *prefer* to drive the other was somehow deranged...to a lesser extent, drinkers of Coke and Pepsi behave similarly....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? R.H. Draney: > You sometimes used to hear this sort of thing between drivers of Fords > and Chevys... to a lesser extent, drinkers of Coke and Pepsi behave > similarly... Well, of course. But the question is, outside of a sci/tech/academic context, would these be referred to as religious differences? SignatureMark Brader "Hacking for 8 years gives a guy a memory. Toronto If you was with a woman -- I'd've noticed." msb@vex.net PHANTOM LADY > R.H. Draney: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Well, of course. �But the question is, outside of a sci/tech/academic > context, would these be referred to as religious differences? I encounter such description of matters unholy in daily usage only in regards to sexual preferences; e.g.: he is of a different "religion", i.e. he is gay. >R.H. Draney: >> You sometimes used to hear this sort of thing between drivers of Fords [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Well, of course. But the question is, outside of a sci/tech/academic >context, would these be referred to as religious differences? Yes. The kind of knitting needles one prefers may be referred to as a religious thing. Of course, if I lived on Craggy Island, it might be an ecumenical matter instead. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > R.H. Draney: >> You sometimes used to hear this sort of thing between drivers of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Well, of course. But the question is, outside of a sci/tech/academic > context, would these be referred to as religious differences? It's fairly common here, in talking about the loyalties of sports fans, either to particular clubs or to the various football codes. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > R.H. Draney: >> You sometimes used to hear this sort of thing between drivers of Fords [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Well, of course. But the question is, outside of a sci/tech/academic > context, would these be referred to as religious differences? It was certainly considered tech enough to be covered in the Jargon File: http://www.ccil.org/jargon/jargon_33.html#TAG1495 But, as I've seen discussed somewhere (here?) in the past week or so, a particular meaning of "random" seems to have escaped into general slang, so maybe this has as well: http://www.ccil.org/jargon/jargon_33.html#TAG1495 SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu [...] > You sometimes used to hear this sort of thing between drivers of > Fords and Chevys, each convinced beyond all reason that *their* car > was wonderful in every way and anyone who would actually *prefer* to > drive the other was somehow deranged...to a lesser extent, drinkers > of Coke and Pepsi behave similarly....r "There was never a worser Car than a Mercer." "You have to be nuts To drive a Stutz." SignatureMike. > I hope you are all in good spirits. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Thanks again for any insights you may offer. It sounds normal enough to me. Some might say "It's an article of faith with him" or other, similar phrases. SignatureRob Bannister |
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