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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009When did the framers of the US Constitution become "our fathers" ?
First time I encountered the "nickname" "fathers" associated with the Constitution was in Lincoln's "Cooper Address" : <<Who were our fathers that framed the Constitution? I suppose the "thirty-nine" who signed the original instrument may be fairly called our fathers who framed that part of the present Government. >> Any other such mentions before Lincoln? In our last episode, <82a14c72-cbac-48e1-9a48-061651a221ac@21g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and talented Arcadian Rises broadcast on alt.usage.english: > First time I encountered the "nickname" "fathers" associated with the > Constitution was in Lincoln's "Cooper Address" : ><<Who were our fathers that framed the Constitution? I suppose the > "thirty-nine" who signed the original instrument may be fairly called > our fathers who framed that part of the present Government. >> > Any other such mentions before Lincoln? I don't know of any. If course when Lincoln said it, it was literal for many Americans. It is not at all clear that Lincoln meant it as a 'nickname' or metaphor, nor that he is alluding to the US Constitution, since the proposition that all men are created equal is found in the Declaration of Independence and not in the Constitution. Lincoln was born in 1809. His father could have been (but apparently was not) involved in the Revolutionary war. Certainly many of the soldiers in the Civil War and many in Lincoln's audience did have fathers who were involved in some way in the establishment of the American republic. There is a tiny bit of metaphor in that those fathers were not Lincoln's father and Lincoln's father (so far as I know) was not among those fathers. But for those assembled, for whom Lincoln was speaking, it was literally their fathers. I doubt Lincoln meant it in the way 'founding fathers' is batted around today.  SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> usenet@larseighner.com INCREDIBLE new art blog: http://inflagrantedilettante.blogger.com/ > In our last episode, > <82a14c72-cbac-48e1-9a48-061651a221ac@21g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Constitution, since the proposition that all men are created equal is > found in the Declaration of Independence and not in the Constitution. [...] I'm not sure I can think of it as metaphorical (except in origin), since one can be the "father" of any institution, not merely of a child. We have, for example, the fathers of the Church, who founded it; and, in a slightly different sense, the formal address to the Roman Senate was "Enrolled Fathers". SignatureMike. > In our last episode, > <82a14c72-cbac-48e1-9a48-061651a221ac@21g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Lincoln was born in 1809. His father could have been (but apparently was > not) involved in the Revolutionary war. Considering the war ended 26 years prior, it would have been more likely his grandfather would have been of age to fight it. By the time of the Civil War, the youngest revolutionaries would have been over 90. I'd be surprised if "many" Americans had fathers in that cohort. In 1850, a 40 year-old white male was still expected to die before 70. And even 80 year-olds weren't likely to make it to 90. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire [...] > But for those assembled, for whom Lincoln was speaking, it was literally their > fathers. I doubt Lincoln meant it in the way 'founding fathers' is batted > around today. Supplementary question: When did people start claiming that the USA is the only nation ever to have been founded on an idea? This weird notion was much ventilated at the time of Pres. Obama's election. -- VB > Supplementary question: When did people start claiming that the USA > is the only nation ever to have been founded on an idea? This weird > notion was much ventilated at the time of Pres. Obama's election. No one (except perhaps American speech-makers) says the USA is the only nation founded on an idea because most people know the French Republic was similarly founded on a (nonidentical) idea shortly thereafter. The real point is that the US government was the first in modern history founded by a formal written constitution, nowadays the single most recommended model (cf. constitutions of the Soviet Union, most republics, Afghanistan, etc.) Even parliamentary countries with an evolutionary rather than revolutionary tradition (e.g. Canada, Australia) seem nowadays to feel they need a comprehensive written constitution. Late 19th century American historians were probably the first writers to expatiate on this at length (cf. steam printing, mass immigration from Europe etc.) Late 19th century historians were the first to debate (and disagree) whether the US Constitution represented Roman republican virtues, Greek local democracy, the interests of Virgina planters, and so on. In the USA Washington was mourned at his death (1799) as the "father of his nation." The group portrait of Canadian politicos at the Charlottetown Conference of 1864 (which drafted terms for the union of the British N.American colonies) was popularly known early as the "Fathers of Confederation." SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > "Vinny Burgoo" <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message > > Supplementary question: When did people start claiming that the USA > > is the only nation ever to have been founded on an idea? This weird > > notion was much ventilated at the time of Pres. Obama's election. I can offer a provisional answer to my own question: 1922. That was the year the campaigning American philosopher Gilbert K. Chesterton published his seminal analysis and celebration of American exceptionalism, _What I Saw in America_. 'America is the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed,' he announced. Many of the more star-spangled websites will tell you that those words are no less true today than they were back then in the dawn of time. (1922 also saw the publication of a potboiler of the same name by one G. K. Chesterton. It began with the words, 'I have never managed to lose my old conviction that travel narrows the mind', and went on to ponder 'a quite abnormal spirit of inquisition; an interference with liberty unknown among all the ancient despotisms and aristocracies.' But let's not get into that.) > No one (except perhaps American speech-makers) ... How last-minute was that parenthesis? It undermined everything that followed (which is why I've snipped it all). Two examples from many: Cardiss Collins, speech to the House of Representatives, September 1995: 'Mr. Speaker, as has been said many times before, ours is the only Nation founded on an idea--the idea of democracy. No idea is more American.' Jesse Helms, December 2001, speech at the Mayflower Hotel, Washington, D.C.: 'America is the only nation in history founded on an idea: the proposition that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.' -- VB 'The first principle is that nobody should be ashamed of thinking a thing funny because it is foreign; the second is that he should be ashamed of thinking it wrong because it is funny.' - Gilbert K. Chesterton III > First time I encountered the "nickname" "fathers" associated with the > Constitution was in Lincoln's "Cooper Address" : > > <<Who were our fathers that framed the Constitution? I suppose the > "thirty-nine" who signed the original instrument may be fairly called > our fathers who framed that part of the present Government. >> Although only 39 actually signed the Constitution, all 55 delegates attended the Constitutional Convention held at Philadelphia in 1787, are regarded as Founding Fathers of the USA, also known as The Framers of the Constitution. Click on the link below to see their names and brief biographies. http://www.usconstitution.net/constframe.html >> First time I encountered the "nickname" "fathers" associated with the >> Constitution was in Lincoln's "Cooper Address" : [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.usconstitution.net/constframe.html That is a good link, thanks for posting it. Some snippets from the bios. In the early part of his life he was a Shoe-maker; -but despising the lowness of his condition, he turned Almanack maker, and so progressed upwards to a Judge. possesses a good deal of information, but he has a very bad delivery, and so extremely prolix, that he never speaks without tiring the patience of all who hear him. possesses a good deal of information, but he has a very bad delivery, and so extremely prolix, that he never speaks without tiring the patience of all who hear him. no doubt but he has made the vow of celibacy. He speaks warmly of the Ladies notwithstanding His manners are tinctured with stiffness, and sometimes with a degree of vanity that is highly disagreeable. is about 46 years of age, rather lusty, his language is irregular and incorrect, -his flourishes (for he sometimes attempts them), are like expiring flames, they just shew themselves and go out; -no traces of them are left on the mind to clear or animate it.He is a Man of plain sense, and has modesty enough to hold his Tongue. |
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