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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009The art of football chants
Came across an article today on football chants; it was much more interesting than I expected it to be. (I liked the "Koreans-dogs-Scousers-rats" one; offensive, for sure, but funny trumps offensive.) http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/may/03/football-chants- manchester-united http://tinyurl.com/d9u29o  SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > Came across an article today on football chants; it was much more > interesting than I expected it to be. > > (I liked the "Koreans-dogs-Scousers-rats" one; offensive, for sure, > but funny trumps offensive.) Not in the case of the more popular away team fans' songs about the Man U players who died at Munich. Yes, they're still singing about that. > http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/may/03/football-chants- > manchester-united > > http://tinyurl.com/d9u29o But there continue to be some classics and some works of brilliance. A couple of my fave raves from the grave ... Tony Hateley was a Liverpool forward known as the Golden Forehead because of his ability to head goals (though he couldn't do much else). The Kop sang "Have we told you, Hateley, that we love you?" And they used to sing of Bobby Zamora "When the ball hits the goal it's not Shearer or Scholes, its ... Zamora." SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> Came across an article today on football chants; it was much more >> interesting than I expected it to be. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > And they used to sing of Bobby Zamora "When the ball hits the goal it's not > Shearer or Scholes, its ... Zamora." Foolishly, I didn't expect to catch STS from this thread... SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> Came across an article today on football chants; it was much more >>> interesting than I expected it to be. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Foolishly, I didn't expect to catch STS from this thread... NOBODY expects the Spanish Tune Syndrome! SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > And they used to sing of Bobby Zamora "When the ball hits the goal it's not > Shearer or Scholes, its ... Zamora." They used to. Zamora's goalscoring career has since been a rather spectacular failure. The phrase "Couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo" springs to mind. Opposition fans (and even some of his own) have now changed the words to: "When you're sat in row 'Z', and the ball hits your head - that's Zamora". Incidentally, as an Aston Villa fan, I would like to stake a claim for the Villa fans being the first to adapt "Guantanamera", back in the 1960s with the straightforward "One Aston Villa, there's only one Aston Villa". It has since been taken up by virtually all English clubs claiming there is "only one" of virtually anything or anybody (or two Andy Gorams as the article points out). Mike M >"When you're sat in row 'Z', and the ball hits your head - that's >Zamora". For puzzled foreigners: in BrE 'Z' is pronounced "zed". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Came across an article today on football chants; it was much more > interesting than I expected it to be. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://tinyurl.com/d9u29o Interesting. I'm sure I missed a lot of references (I looked up Eric Cantona, though), and I was probably supposed to know the tunes that go with a lot of the lyrics. But in what sense is "Guantanamera" about a girl who makes the lyricist a steak sandwich? I took a look at the lyrics and at the first of Marti's "Versos Sencillos" and the closest thing I saw was a wounded deer. -- Jerry Friedman >> Came across an article today on football chants; it was much more >> interesting than I expected it to be. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >first of Marti's "Versos Sencillos" and the closest thing I saw was a >wounded deer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamera#Original_lyrics Original lyrics The original lyrics to the song, as written by José Fernández, relate to a particular woman from Guantánamo, with whom he had a romantic relationship, and who if the lyrics are to be believed eventually left him. The alleged real story behind these lyrics (or at least one of many versions of the song's origin that Fernández suggested during his lifetime) is that she did not have a romantic interest in him, but merely a platonic one. If the details are to be believed, she had brought him a steak sandwich one day as a present to the radio station he worked at, he stared at some other woman (and made a pass at her) while eating the sandwich, and his friend yanked it out of his hands in disgust, cursed him and left. He never saw her again. These words are rarely sung today. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Peter Duncanson (BrE) set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: >>> Came across an article today on football chants; it was much more >>> interesting than I expected it to be. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >>first of Marti's "Versos Sencillos" and the closest thing I saw was a >>wounded deer. How long has there been a US base at Guantanamo Bay, that is so much in the news these days? Was the song inspired by a US serviceman who took a fancy to a peasant girl from outside the base? Signature<unknown> has caused an error in <unknown>. <unknown> will now close. > Peter Duncanson (BrE) set the following eddies spiralling through the > space-time continuum: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > in the news these days? Was the song inspired by a US serviceman who > took a fancy to a peasant girl from outside the base? The US has occupied the area since 1898. The lease dates from 1903 SignatureJohn Dean Oxford On May 4, 3:51 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >> Came across an article today on football chants; it was much more > >> interesting than I expected it to be. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > yanked it out of his hands in disgust, cursed him and left. He never > saw her again. These words are rarely sung today. Thanks. This looks like another example of a /Guardian/ writer taking unsourced information from Wikipedia without attribution or warning. Wherever the information is from, there's no attribution. I wonder whether Lamont read the editorial code. -- Jerry Friedman >On May 4, 3:51 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: >> >But in what sense is "Guantanamera" about a girl who makes the >> >lyricist a steak sandwich? I took a look at the lyrics and at the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Thanks. This looks like another example of a /Guardian/ writer taking >unsourced information from Wikipedia without attribution or warning. It does. >Wherever the information is from, there's no attribution. I wonder >whether Lamont read the editorial code. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Came across an article today on football chants; it was much more > interesting than I expected it to be. > > (I liked the "Koreans-dogs-Scousers-rats" one; offensive, for sure, > but funny trumps offensive.) [...] > http://tinyurl.com/d9u29o Thanks, Harvey. An entertaining and informative article - until the academics got involved, anyway. '"Often people just want to join in with something celebratory or carnivalesque, and it could almost be said that what's being chanted doesn't really matter to them," says Professor Mike Weed, of the faculty of sport at Canterbury Christ Church University. "So you will get people at England games singing 'No surrender to the IRA' or 'If it wasn't for the English you'd be Krauts' without fully realising that that's being racist. They think that's just what you do at football."' How are those two chants racist, in English usage? The only remotely racist aspect of either of them is the word 'Krauts', and that's racist only if you're one of those who takes his racism so seriously that he strives to trivialise it at every opportunity. -- VB Inselaffe >> Came across an article today on football chants; it was much more >> interesting than I expected it to be. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > racist only if you're one of those who takes his racism so seriously > that he strives to trivialise it at every opportunity. Neat. Academics can get involved in other ways, though. Bristol University spectators at matches against The U of the West of England used, I'm told, to sing "You're /thick/, and you know you are" instead of the traditional "...sh.t..." SignatureMike. Mike wrote on Mon, 4 May 2009 23:01:29 +0100: >>> Came across an article today on football chants; it was much >>> more interesting than I expected it to be. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> takes his racism so seriously that he strives to trivialise >> it at every opportunity. > Neat. > Academics can get involved in other ways, though. Bristol > University spectators at matches against The U of the West of England > used, I'm told, to sing "You're /thick/, and you know you are" instead > of the traditional "...sh.t..." When I first came to the US, I went with a friend to a basketball game at Swarthmore College, of which he was an alumnus, and heard the cheer "Kill, Quakers, Kill". SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not James Silverton filted: >When I first came to the US, I went with a friend to a basketball game >at Swarthmore College, of which he was an alumnus, and heard the cheer >"Kill, Quakers, Kill". That's what happens when your enemies are Friends....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > When I first came to the US, I went with a friend to a basketball game > at Swarthmore College, of which he was an alumnus, and heard the cheer > "Kill, Quakers, Kill". They were, I presume, playing the University of Pennsylvania Fighting Quakers. With Friends like that ... SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It is error alone which needs the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |support of government. Truth can Palo Alto, CA 94304 |stand by itself. | Thomas Jefferson kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ On May 4, 6:07 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote: > When I first came to the US, I went with a friend to a basketball game > at Swarthmore College, of which he was an alumnus, and heard the cheer > "Kill, Quakers, Kill". "Rah, rah, ree: kick him in the knee! Rah, rah, rass, kick him in the OTHER knee!" Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- "We will keep fighting until the violence stops!" > > Came across an article today on football chants; it was much more > > interesting than I expected it to be. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > How are those two chants racist, in English usage? I wondered about that too. But when did or do people sing "No surrender to the IRA"? If it's simply any time England play(s) Ireland, the singers apparently see Ireland as more or less the same as the IRA, which is an offensive national stereotype--and that's probably what Prof. Weed means by "racist". He is a professor of sport, after all. > The only remotely > racist aspect of either of them is the word 'Krauts', and that's > racist only if you're one of those who takes his racism so seriously > that he strives to trivialise it at every opportunity. Maybe "those who take their racism so seriously", in English usage? -- Jerry Friedman On 4 May, 23:12, jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: [...] > > How are those two chants racist, in English usage? > > I wondered about that too. But when did or do people sing "No > surrender to the IRA"? If it's simply any time England play(s) > Ireland, the singers apparently see Ireland as more or less the same > as the IRA, Not necessarily. They might just be trying to stir things up. I vaguely recall, though, that England fans sang it (shouted it) at anyone they happened to meet, not just at the Irish. I think it was (is?) more about pumping themselves up than putting others down. But I'm no expert. > which is an offensive national stereotype--and that's > probably what Prof. Weed means by "racist". He is a professor of > sport, after all. Snob! He is actually a professor of sport science, tourism and leisure. (After all.) > > The only remotely > > racist aspect of either of them is the word 'Krauts', and that's > > racist only if you're one of those who takes his racism so seriously > > that he strives to trivialise it at every opportunity. > > Maybe "those who take their racism so seriously", in English usage? Yes. But exclusively? Your version is logical and mine is not, but mine still looks right to me. Perhaps it's one of those beastly British language innovations. (Or perhaps I'm just wrong.) -- VB who thinks Peter 'grammatim' Daniels was mostly right in that recent exchange >VB >who thinks Peter 'grammatim' Daniels was mostly right in that recent exchange Didn't you think DC was at least wromantic? SignatureJames > On 4 May, 23:12, jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > anyone they happened to meet, not just at the Irish. I think it was > (is?) more about pumping themselves up than putting others down. It's an all-purpose chant for England supporters, especially at away matches. It indicates support for the loyalists in NI who are deemed to be patriots. It's often accompanied by "One Bomber Harris, there's only one Bomber Harris", especially in Germany. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > On 4 May, 23:12, jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote: [my conjecture on no surrender] > > which is an offensive national stereotype--and that's > > probably what Prof. Weed means by "racist". He is a professor of > > sport, after all. > > Snob! GAC,YH. > He is actually a professor of sport science, tourism and > leisure. > > (After all.) Well. > > > The only remotely > > > racist aspect of either of them is the word 'Krauts', and that's [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > mine still looks right to me. Perhaps it's one of those beastly > British language innovations. (Or perhaps I'm just wrong.) Does yours look right because of the "one" in "one of those"? > -- > VB > who thinks Peter 'grammatim' Daniels was mostly right in that recent > exchange That is, the Brit in the street thinks American English has many things wrong with it and those things are corrupted from the older and purer British English, but the differences pointed to as American corruptions are actually instances of American conservatism and British innovation? Mostly? Maybe you could provide some of the examples he failed to provide. So far we have "gotten", and "truck" instead of "lorry" (does TBITS really consider that wrong?), and I could add "tire" for "tyre" (same question). Anyway, I doubt this is true, and you'd be incomparably more fun to argue with than Peter Daniels. -- Jerry Friedman > who thinks Peter 'grammatim' Daniels was mostly right in that recent > exchange Well that's because you're an American and therefore like that. <g> SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu |
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